Fictional Realities

[camille]

Edit: See? Bad! I do that too. I tell myself that I will write someone normal, and give them a ton of hidden little patches of darkness. It's realistic, yes. But I feel it's limiting. If I can't write from any point of view, I can't call myself a writer. On the other hand, a lot of people do scream at their children, so maybe that's a part of the normal?

Why do you feel it is limiting? Even secondary characters who pass through a story have quirks which the reader usually attributes to some hidden darkness. That is because we all relate to that darkness. Maybe the reason it is so difficult to write normal, functional characters who continue to rise to the top is because we don't really know any and the absence creates a character devoid of emotion. Most people don't read literature because it carries that 'feel-good' feeling. That want that internal conflict in the characters. I think 'normal' is the struggle between morals, emotions, relationships, etc. Something has to fuel it.

Limiting though, is an interesting idea. I think I limit myself by not allowing myself to go deep enough, not expose or write about what everybody feels inside. I'm always afraid I'll embarrass people with what I write. Not because it has sex or drugs or wayward teens. I think if I opened myself up more, I would hit what it is that everybody feels but doesn't want to talk about with others. They just want to know somebody else gets it. I don't know. I'm more of a character writer than plot driven. Writing, for me, isn't about telling a story; it's about brushing the dust off of people everyone can relate to, even if they don't relate to the situation.

I don't really think about how to write a character. I think, this person needs to get this out or across, without thinking about how the character will present his or herself in my mind. Sometimes I get several pages into a good character story before the character starts to take definition.

In my blog even, the glimpses of my past, and the good things of the present, are presented with a sense of growth. How do you grow if there isn't something that needs to be adjusted or dealt with?

You can call yourself a writer if you feel the need to write. (Don't make me quote Rilke :grin: )

edit: Rhu, you are too awesome for words.
note by Rhu: Perhaps only for splitting this thread off from Writing Exercise (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=24063). ;)

[carbon cold]

Why do you feel it is limiting? Even secondary characters who pass through a story have quirks which the reader usually attributes to some hidden darkness. That is because we all relate to that darkness. Maybe the reason it is so difficult to write normal, functional characters who continue to rise to the top is because we don't really know any and the absence creates a character devoid of emotion. Most people don't read literature because it carries that 'feel-good' feeling. That want that internal conflict in the characters. I think 'normal' is the struggle between morals, emotions, relationships, etc. Something has to fuel it.

Not being able to write everything, including the unrealistic and foreign of idea existence, is for me, limiting. I don't think they do either, but there's still a light that .. well, for instance. Oscar Wilde in The Picture of Dorian Gray has sinning characters, men of vice and very much with that patch of darkness, yet without question, good. I can't do that. I can make a victim, a survivor, a killer, and all those extremes, but not that. So that's just me, probably.

What does it say of people, or just a person, who can write their dystopia, but no utopia? If anything else, I'd just like that change of mindset for a few minutes.


Limiting though, is an interesting idea. I think I limit myself by not allowing myself to go deep enough, not expose or write about what everybody feels inside. I'm always afraid I'll embarrass people with what I write. Not because it has sex or drugs or wayward teens. I think if I opened myself up more, I would hit what it is that everybody feels but doesn't want to talk about with others. They just want to know somebody else gets it. I don't know. I'm more of a character writer than plot driven. Writing, for me, isn't about telling a story; it's about brushing the dust off of people everyone can relate to, even if they don't relate to the situation.

Haaah. I love plots. Not speaking on anything in this thread but I love to build a goal point, set the stages of the story in loose format, and then invent a character capable of carrying it through them all. The character exists to do nothing else than get to the end, to the question, or whatever. Not to say I don't think of character-driven aspects as an alternative instead. I used to do this textual based role-playing thing, not the geek-kind, which was basically a collab done with one or more person to get through a plot. Each control their own characters. Yaddah. It's actually pretty chill if you get someone up to your particular standards. But anyway, I use character sheets for some of my 'muses'. Laid out in glorious detail. Just curious, do you?

Writing is just kind of an escapism/detachment thing for me versus humanity thing. I can respect both points of view though. Best friend said some of the same stuff you have.



I don't really think about how to write a character. I think, this person needs to get this out or across, without thinking about how the character will present his or herself in my mind. Sometimes I get several pages into a good character story before the character starts to take definition.

I've only taken that approach in quickwrites, it's a lot harder. *Bows.* People of this thread are truly so great.



In my blog even, the glimpses of my past, and the good things of the present, are presented with a sense of growth. How do you grow if there isn't something that needs to be adjusted or dealt with?

You can call yourself a writer if you feel the need to write. (Don't make me quote Rilke :grin: )

I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out how to hypnotize myself into a denial capable of refusing things being dealt with/adjusted to/et cetera.


edit: Rhu, you are too awesome for words.
And numerical value.

Also, synesthesia is proving more difficult than initially thought. A challenge!

[camille]

Not being able to write everything, including the unrealistic and foreign of idea existence, is for me, limiting. I don't think they do either, but there's still a light that .. well, for instance. Oscar Wilde in The Picture of Dorian Gray has sinning characters, men of vice and very much with that patch of darkness, yet without question, good. I can't do that. I can make a victim, a survivor, a killer, and all those extremes, but not that. So that's just me, probably.

I don't think I'm capable of writing everything just yet. I think that comes with life experience. Right now, I'm thirty-two looking back on seventeen. Not saying I can't write characters younger or older than that, just that they are impressions of my understanding of humans while I'm at the age of thirty-two. That's the joy in reading authors who are different ages though - the perspective.


What does it say of people, or just a person, who can write their dystopia, but no utopia? If anything else, I'd just like that change of mindset for a few minutes.

Write a person's utopia and see what happens. Maybe a prompt?



Haaah. I love plots. Not speaking on anything in this thread but I love to build a goal point, set the stages of the story in loose format, and then invent a character capable of carrying it through them all. The character exists to do nothing else than get to the end, to the question, or whatever. Not to say I don't think of character-driven aspects as an alternative instead. I used to do this textual based role-playing thing, not the geek-kind, which was basically a collab done with one or more person to get through a plot. Each control their own characters. Yaddah. It's actually pretty chill if you get someone up to your particular standards. But anyway, I use character sheets for some of my 'muses'. Laid out in glorious detail. Just curious, do you?

Rhu should probably create a thread for this discussion so we don't screw up his list. :grin:

I don't ever outline or write out character sheets. My thoughts generally come from reading a word someone else has written. Even the word 'brittle' can send off some story in my head.

Music contributes to my thoughts. When I walk, I listen to music. Inside my head, I create a room or a situation or see a face who needs a body. Most everything I've written has a song that was playing when I wrote it. But I'm a dancer and musician so that has something to do with it I'm sure. I've never been able to tolerate absolute silence.

I once outlined a story. I spent like two months outlining a story until it made sense to me. Then I had no desire to write the story. I had it all figured out after the outline so found no joy in writing it out. If I had just sat down with the idea, the words would have come.


Writing is just kind of an escapism/detachment thing for me versus humanity thing. I can respect both points of view though. Best friend said some of the same stuff you have.

It's only been over the last couple of years on this forum that I began letting people read my stuff. I've always been intrigued by people and what makes them tick. Writing is a way for me to see how I tick.


I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out how to hypnotize myself into a denial capable of refusing things being dealt with/adjusted to/et cetera.

Let me know if you find the trick because I suck at that. ;)


Also, synesthesia is proving more difficult than initially thought. A challenge!

Agreed. I thought about it last night but didn't come up with anything. I'll keep mulling it over.

[Rhu]

Limiting though, is an interesting idea. I think I limit myself by not allowing myself to go deep enough, not expose or write about what everybody feels inside. I'm always afraid I'll embarrass people with what I write.
Bury it in metaphor and analogy!


Or just get back to those punk rock roots and enjoy making people embarrassed.


What does it say of people, or just a person, who can write their dystopia, but no utopia? If anything else, I'd just like that change of mindset for a few minutes.
Utopia is difficult to write about, mostly because the more conflict and competition you remove from a projected society, the more boring the people become. Eventually it comes to the point that the only way to make it interesting to read is if you turn it into a porno.



I used to do this textual based role-playing thing, not the geek-kind, which was basically a collab done with one or more person to get through a plot. Each control their own characters. Yaddah. It's actually pretty chill if you get someone up to your particular standards.
Probably the greatest influence on my writing was the decade I spent hanging out on a MUSH every day. Aside from some brief stints, I spent my time... adding scenery, writing silly poetry on the spot, and spinning people off into their own adventures.


But anyway, I use character sheets for some of my 'muses'. Laid out in glorious detail. Just curious, do you?
Pfft. Character sheets are for nerds.


edit: Rhu, you are too awesome for words.

And numerical value.
Shucks! You guys are really...

Rhu should probably create a thread for this discussion so we don't screw up his list. :grin:
...buttering me up to make me do work!



Also, synesthesia is proving more difficult than initially thought. A challenge!
I've got an idea. It's a conversation with the people and subject removed. Just descriptions of changes in textures and shapes. All bumps and grooves, objects rotating and butting up against eachother until they interlock or just find that they can't.

It just seemed a bit too dry and abstract to put down, though.

[outmywindow]

Carbon, if you're having trouble expressing the concept of synesthesia, there are a number of members here who have varying forms of it. You might pick their brains.

*leaves conversation*

[carbon cold]

Write a person's utopia and see what happens. Maybe a prompt?

It'd turn into a hell. If I wrote it. Which I won't do without being pressured. (Notahintmaybe)


Music contributes to my thoughts. When I walk, I listen to music. Inside my head, I create a room or a situation or see a face who needs a body. Most everything I've written has a song that was playing when I wrote it. But I'm a dancer and musician so that has something to do with it I'm sure. I've never been able to tolerate absolute silence.

I usually have sound, but I stick to white noise or classical musical. If I listen to the music, the lyrics can sometimes affect my wording without me realizing it. Then I feel cheap.


I once outlined a story. I spent like two months outlining a story until it made sense to me. Then I had no desire to write the story. I had it all figured out after the outline so found no joy in writing it out. If I had just sat down with the idea, the words would have come.

Leave room for flexibility and don't try to plan everything at first. Get your idea ending (which is what I usually get first, or the climax point) in head, figure out the beginning and good to go~ I had the most success with the best friend though. Collaborating with someone who understands your small authority issues and happens to be brilliant, well, that can do some help.



It's only been over the last couple of years on this forum that I began letting people read my stuff. I've always been intrigued by people and what makes them tick. Writing is a way for me to see how I tick.

Will psychoanalyze.


Pfft. Character sheets are for nerds.

Try managing eight characters in seven different complex plots, one who has twelve-alterego/hallucination thing.. without a character sheet. TRY IT. HUH. WHAT.

Um.

So I have an idea. Which I'm going to work on now. And get struck by God for it. Yaaay.


I've got an idea. It's a conversation with the people and subject removed. Just descriptions of changes in textures and shapes. All bumps and grooves, objects rotating and butting up against eachother until they interlock or just find that they can't.

It just seemed a bit too dry and abstract to put down, though.

I guess the cheapest way to go about it would just be a poem with a lot of different metaphor/similes linking taste to sight and such. Could be a great poem if the right person does it, just not entirely challenging.

Edit: I took the cheap way. And it wasn't challenging. It was..flowing. Natural. Which is actually generally a good thing. I think I half used real synesthesia compare-thingies!

Um. Yeah. Better to have something following the prompt, either way.

Also, outmywindow, thank ya.

[camille]

What is a real push? What stretches you?

For me, it isn't creating fictional worlds. It isn't coming up with new plots. It's talking about things that push the gag reflex.

I never feel like writing about happiness because I think people will, or should, find that in their everyday lives. But I know that isn't true. Not everyone knows security, or comfort, or beauty.

A real push, for me, would be to go deeper into myself and dredge up the really sick stuff.

[Ptah]

:ph34r:

I identify a few different kind of stories, and each requires a slightly different approach to weaving the "Fictional Reality" (incl all it's relavent dramatic constituents: characters, settings, plot elements, etc) -

Character stories are about an emotional payoff for the reader for having experienced a dramatic development in the primary character(s). Of course, this gets to the definition of drama, but I'd digress...

Complication stories are about an "aha" payoff for the reader for having experienced the resolution of a complex problem/crisis. Some derived examples would be the "mystery" or "disaster" or "caper" plots.

Atmospheric stories make me think of some Poe; the payoff for the reader is primarily a feeling drawn from the immersion/experience of a particular place; I like to think of these stories as those where the setting is really the main character; and while it cannot quite have drama in the sense a thinking thing can, it can undergo change, if only in perspective to the reader. It's the most distant and uncomfortable/foreign story-type for me to try and produce.

Theme stories are masterstrokes and the most difficult to achieve; they are synthetic of all the other three; where the characters, the complication and the atmosphere all taper toward an overall feeling/message -- the theme. They are the ideal form of story in my opinion, or rather to my tastes. Hence, they are those which I strive to write.

Of course, a complication story has characters and so on. But the types indicate the dominant vehicles to the delivery of the feeling -- be it an emotional experience through a character or a personal, cognitive "aha" to a complication resolution -- the experience the reader obtains that is the ultimate objective of reading a story, as I see it.

Invariably, I design my "Fictional Realities" by deciding what I want the payoff for the reader to be -- and from that I'll imagine a climax, in the abstract perhaps. The end of a caper, the dramatic denoument of a character's development, the thematic coming-together stroke/reveal. Then I'll consider whether I want to make it ironic, cathartic, twist-ending, etc -- add-ons to the basic delivery. That's my goal. From there, I'll plot the story backwards from the end to the beginning.

If it's a character story, I'll make sure I have a primary character that can go through the necessary hoops to deliver the intended dramatic end result. If it's a complication story, I'll backstep through the steps required to make the ending the inevitable outcome of it's overall process, but suitably unpredictable at each step. And so on, working backwards.

From there, it comes to the refining details -- where the "Fictional Reality" comes in. What genre/setting is best suited to the complication/character/theme/atmosphere at hand? Sci-fi, fantasy? (The best stories -- the truly timeless ones are not dependant on their genre as such; the genre simply serves to hone a particular channel of interpretation/experience supervening upon the underlying plot structure). What character traits best frame this or that, best increase the dramatic tension? What elements of backstory, character and setting-wise, emphasize or facilitate this or that -- again, casting backward at first, and then stepping forward to make sure it plays well in that direction. A personal goal emergent from taste for elegant design: nothing is in the story that does not have to be -- or rather, which does not serve the ultimate end goal, bricks to a pyramid-style.

It's all great fun to me. I crank out "pre-stories" of the sort quite readily; it's the narrative finish that cripples me. :(

[carbon cold]

What is a real push? What stretches you?

For me, it isn't creating fictional worlds. It isn't coming up with new plots. It's talking about things that push the gag reflex.

I never feel like writing about happiness because I think people will, or should, find that in their everyday lives. But I know that isn't true. Not everyone knows security, or comfort, or beauty.

A real push, for me, would be to go deeper into myself and dredge up the really sick stuff.

I've never stopped and said "this is too much" - I push the gag reflex without flinching, and I'm not bragging about that, it's just actually a part of my personality. Shock value is delicious, but it's also mostly symbolic and an archaic representation of societal inability to cope with the realities where dollars don't make things disappear.

I want to write about something, indeed, happy. I wonder, vaguely, if the T-F dynamic has any relation to why we have exact opposite answers. You want to bring up the sick stuff, I need to find out if I've got anything but the sick.


It's all great fun to me. I crank out "pre-stories" of the sort quite readily; it's the narrative finish that cripples me.

Based on what you've written in your post as far as how you approach a story (systematically, yes?) - I'd strongly suggest finding a collab writer. It should help hone your narrative flow and would, presumably if the temperaments can stay level, be productive.

This brings me to a question, which I believe would be appropriate for this topic.

What do words mean?

Not the story, not what they're actually saying - how they flow, from one to the next, carrying with them different implications and emotions. Do you pay close attention to how you frame your pictures (meaning, syntax -- > story) or let it happen without concern?

Personally, the flow of words is very important for my writing ability. The first three sentences of any piece are the most vital for me, and I will spend twenty minutes rewriting them (vs. the ten minutes it takes to write seven paragraphs) until they taste, feel, and flow right. Whatever that means.

While word choice and grammar is a technical aspect, it transcends this, for me.

So?