Entropy

[int]

It's normally tossed into physics arguements, ime. I've been tossing it into social and political debates as well. Nothing original, but it seems to explain a lot.

I normally hate dictionary definitions, but for those unfamiliar (from dictionary.com):


2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.

I can't believe a "closed" system even exists in society and politics due to the fact that we can change both, which makes entropy the un-accounted for aspects of the "system."

[HackerX]

I agree

[Johnny]

I like to think of it as a sort of pendulum, actually, where the momentum is entropy but the pendulum alternates between order and chaos. However, dictionary.com may not be supporting this idea...

[Vagabond]

Strange... you don't believe a closed system exists, and I don't believe there is randomness in a closed system.... :D

edit: "order and chaos" - is chaos really "chaotic"...? What is chaos...

[Johnny]

...is chaos really "chaotic"?
I agree, we're much better at defining order, systems, and cause-effect relationships than we are in defining chaos, freedom or randomness. Reminds me of another Ashley Brilliant quote:
"My final decision is: Maybe."

[CosmicDust]

Chaos is kind of an imitation randomness...things don't follow neat paths, but usually something dubbed "chaotic" follows deterministic laws that guide its development. This is the case for a pendulum. Fractal patterns (also commonly associated with "chaos") are generated by repeatedly applying a single equation, and the result is symmetrical but not smooth and orderly in a simple sense.

[Johnny]

...Fractal patterns...
I recall, while in college, that some of the engineering and computer science students I encountered would run programs on math equations that would sketch out interesting, multicolored patterns with a black lazy 8 in the center. Is this what you mean?

Here's an example:
http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/FHome1b.gif
A Mandelbrot set? "The set of all points that remain bounded for every iteration of z = z*z + c on the complex plane, where the initial value of z is 0 and c is a constant."

[Crazy]

Chaos is just order we don't understand or can't control (or have the illusion of control over)

[paladinoflunaria]

I would say that chaos has an order to it, and order is really chaotic if you think about it.

[Crazy]

I would say that chaos has an order to it, and order is really chaotic if you think about it.

Beings as limited as humans can never create true order. We can only observe, in our own limited way, the true order of the universe.

We cannot create true order, because we cannot have true control.

[paladinoflunaria]

:huh:

[Crazy]

Can we have order without control?

[Johnny]

This idea that chaos can be understood through the magnification or expansion of seemingly incomprehensible patterns to show that they comprise comprehensible patterns after all is interesting, if what just said is really what chaos theory is supposed to be about. Man, I had forgotten why Mandelbrot sets were supposed to be so much fun to look at...


Can we have order without control?
I'll bite. Yes, we can. Order and control are not the same thing. Order is an object while control is action-oriented.

[Division56]

Isn't order a state of being, not an object?

[Crazy]

Isn't order a state of being, not an object?
In this case, yes. Now if you order a cup of coffee at Starbucks(tm) the your cup of coffee (an object) is an order.



All order is controlled by one thing or another.

One of the ways to discribe chaos is out of order, or out of control.

[Johnny]

usually something dubbed "chaotic" follows deterministic laws that guide its development.
Yes, now I think I see what you mean here a little better. Mountains, rivers, trees, the coast of England (:)). Nice tool!


All order is controlled by one thing or another.

One of the ways to discribe chaos is out of order, or out of control.
Now that I think you mean to say that order and control cannot exist independently, let's test it for kicks with the famous butterfly effect:

A hurricane is now in the Atlantic, heading towards the North Carolina coast due to a chain of events that includes the flapping of a butterfly's wings. Can the butterfly now reverse the course of this hurricane?

[Crazy]

usually something dubbed "chaotic" follows deterministic laws that guide its development.
Yes, now I think I see what you mean here a little better. Mountains, rivers, trees, the coast of England (:)). Nice tool!


All order is controlled by one thing or another.

One of the ways to discribe chaos is out of order, or out of control.
Now that I think you mean to say that order and control cannot exist independently, let's test it for kicks with the famous butterfly effect:

A hurricane is now in the Atlantic, heading towards the North Carolina coast due to a chain of events that includes the flapping of a butterfly's wings. Can the butterfly now reverse the course of this hurricane?

It could if it was in complete control of the rest of the chain of events that put the hurricaine in motion to begin with. The Butterfly is only one piece of the pie. I might be able to also, if it could set into motion a seperate chain of events that would alter the hurricaines path enough to totally reverse it.

Of course, the butterfly only had control over the chain of events when it had the decision to flap it's wings or not to. Once the wings were flapped, the butterfly was no longer in control. The first domino had fallen.

Now, the real question is, who is so much in control that they could place all the dominoes where they belong to make that hurricaine in the Atlantic head toward NC?

[Johnny]

...Can the butterfly now reverse the course of this hurricane?

It could if it was in complete control of the rest of the chain of events that put the hurricaine in motion to begin with. The Butterfly is only one piece of the pie.

Now, the real question is, who is so much in control that they could place all the dominoes where they belong to make that hurricaine in the Atlantic head toward NC?
I like visual representations of regression...couldn't help but take adavantage... :D

As to your question: perhaps as we reason that the butterfly inspired the existence of the hurricane, so did you order the domino lineup with your mind and surrepticiously assume a master controller to take your place.

My take :nerd: : we're on our own as far as figuring out how the world works, and it will always be a nag to wonder if what we figure out is really what's out there. But we are driven to try regardless by the physical and mental mechanisms that exist within us.

We don't seem to be doing too bad so far, perhaps at least until the rug gets pulled from under us...

[Crazy]

As to your question: perhaps as we reason that the butterfly inspired the existence of the hurricane, so did you order the domino lineup with your mind and surrepticiously assume a master controller to take your place.



I reason that the butterfly is just the first domino, for to me, it is illogical to think that the butterfly made a hurricane on purpose. I also believe that there are no coincidences, and that this butterfly did not "accidentally" create said storm. The storm is part of an order so complex that from our perspective it appears to be chaotic.

[jittus rye]

I don't believe in the butterfly effect we have plenty of hurricanes around florida, and trust me none of them were at all effected by a butterfly, but I do believe one person saying something can change things greatly, or a rain storm, or a store that sells out of pepsi, etc.

[paladinoflunaria]

I'm likely going into research mathematics. From what I've read, Chaos Theory sounds very interesting.

[int]

Yes, it is. That's not really where I was going with this thread but the results are interesting nonetheless.

I remember about a year ago, sitting at the CU-Boulder bookstore on one of my breaks, reading a book on chaos theory when one of my buddies (probably an ESFP) came up to me.

"Jesus man, a little light reading, huh?"


I started chuckling, sinisterly, like I hadn't in a while.