Introverts vs. Attention Whores

[Star]

Am I the only person on this site who is not capable of developing deep animosity to people because of their views or personality? Right now I feel that I am (and maybe I would include Geoff too).

All right, here's why I do it.

When I first came here, this forum was all about ideas and brainstorming and the meeting of like minds; there were new things to learn, and I couldn't see anything but posts and ideas. After I'd been here a while personalites started to stand out--seemed to make a conscious effort to stand out, in fact.

At this point the forum turned, for me, from being a place of sharing ideas to some kind of interactive soap opera, or a spectator sport.

Now that it's hard to ignore some of these very strong personalities, I sometimes feel compelled to comment on them when they annoy me. This usually only happens after I've read ten or more posts in a row by one of these in-your-face types of posters, and especially when they seem to be on a campaign to dominate the very nature of the forum (by starting a majority of the threads) or by adding their own personal spin (which seems strangley like a territorial pissing) to nearly every thread (people with 2k+ posts).

I also adore flame wars and when I feel one is needed, like to try to help them get going. I guess I think of them as a kind of gestalt therapy. :D

Songbird may read this thread and think I am talking about her personally, but I'm really not. I can think of 4 or 5 people who have annoyed me in this way since I started visiting this forum, and several more on other fora I've visited on the net.

It's a knee-jerk introvert's reaction to the attention whore thing, I think: a bafflement, an affront. "How dare they call so much attention to themselves! Can't they just shut the fuck up and read?"

[songbird36]

I do see your point entirely, and to some extent I agree.

I am not consciously seeking a lot of attention it's just that I find this place pretty interesting from an intellectual point of view, and I have a lot of strong views on a wide range of topics. I guess I do find it hard to just read and say nothing.

So if that is a criticism, then yes I take it on board. I have enjoyed recently starting topics that I think are interesting and that people can really get into. It may seem hard to believe but I'm actually doing this from a reasonably unselfish POV, and because I'm interested to see what answers other people come up with.

[Star]

Oh, I'm not telling you or anyone to shut up. I'm just explaining why I lash out from time to time, seemingly without provocation; it's because I do develop this kind of animosity, I even cultivate it. I love to fight with words, with people I hate. I see other people say that the INTP arguing/debating style is friendly and impersonal, but it's never really that way for me. I like to argue with people I hate. I hold grudges. I remember every instance where your opinion differed from mine and store it away for future flaming.

Is this 'intp or me'?

My favorite newsgroup was always alt.flame :devil:

On the subject of this thread, I just wonder if other introverts or intps find attention-seeking behavior offensive, or if that's just me being schizoid.

[cjs55]

I see other people say that the INTP arguing/debating style is friendly and impersonal, but it's never really that way for me. I like to argue with people I hate. I hold grudges. I remember every instance where your opinion differed from mine and store it away for future flaming.

You are quite eeevil for an INTP...

Are you sure you aren't an INTJ?

I don't particularly like attention seeking behavior but usually dont really care about it. I can usually ignore it quite well.

[mgb]

On the subject of this thread, I just wonder if other introverts or intps find attention-seeking behavior offensive, or if that's just me being schizoid.

I don't think it's just you. I find attention whoring quite annoying. I post a lot but I usually try and keep it relevent. I don't like posting for the sake of posting either.

After some conversations with other INTPs, I think that attention whoring can be annoying. Which isn't to be confused with conversational tangents on threads, which can be quite enjoyable.

[Solo]

I assuming you aren't thinking of me becaue I don't have 2k+ posts and I don't think I dominate the forum.

With that being said I agree with what you are saying. Do I really need to say the names of the posters that need attention? No I don't. The reason is because they do whatever they can to get it and so we know who they are. It gets very annoying. I nomally don't comment on it because it brings even more attention to the person and that is something I don't want. I do my best to keep the flow of useful information going and put less serious stuff in the local pub or playground.

The most annoying thing has got to be when someone makes a post about themselves just to get themselves more attention. I also don't like it when someone gets special attention like oh lets say a thread stickied because they are popular(you know who I'm talking about)

[garak]

Oh, I'm not telling you or anyone to shut up. I'm just explaining why I lash out from time to time, seemingly without provocation; it's because I do develop this kind of animosity, I even cultivate it. I love to fight with words, with people I hate. I see other people say that the INTP arguing/debating style is friendly and impersonal, but it's never really that way for me. I like to argue with people I hate. I hold grudges. I remember every instance where your opinion differed from mine and store it away for future flaming.

Is this 'intp or me'?

I dunno but it's definitely me as well. I remember lots of things and I develop a "feel" for a person, good or bad, and it rarely changes. The people I don't like I either ignore if convenient, or try to make look stupid otherwise. I LOVE making them look stupid, although it is an artform to calmly do so without giving out signs of desperation and making yourself look just as bad as them. But generally, it doesn't eat me up and once I'm distracted from the situation I won't even remember it until it jumps in my face again.


My favorite newsgroup was always alt.flame :devil:
Hm, I definitely hate pointless flaming and whatnot, and I avoid places like that. #2600 comes to mind. Mindless to me.


On the subject of this thread, I just wonder if other introverts or intps find attention-seeking behavior offensive, or if that's just me being schizoid.
Well there's a distinction in my mind: there are the true attention whores, and there are people who are simply loud. The loud ones usually annoy me but I figure it's their nature just as much as it is my nature to post moderately, or it is someone else's nature to lurk and never post. I don't really hold it against them, although usually other aspects of their personality cause me to not like them too much. But the true attention whores, yes, they piss me off. Unfortunately there's not much you can do about them unless you're in control of things and are willing to be a bit of a fascist.

(btw, what is your avatar? it reminds me of something dirty until I look closer and see a vacuum tube and something square)

[s0978]

When I first came here, this forum was all about ideas and brainstorming and the meeting of like minds; there were new things to learn, and I couldn't see anything but posts and ideas. After I'd been here a while personalites started to stand out--seemed to make a conscious effort to stand out, in fact. ..

On the subject of this thread, I just wonder if other introverts or intps find attention-seeking behavior offensive.."

Don't know if it's an I thing (it probably isn't, given the evidence here), but attention-seeking goes against my sensibilities also. When I first came aboard, I was merrily posting away, la la la, never thinking that personalities might stand out to one another. When I realized that they did, I felt like I was being a loudmouth and would rather shut up some and keep my post count down. :blush:

But that's just me, and people are different. I don't have a problem with others doing the AW thing, not categorically. :)


Well there's a distinction in my mind: there are the true attention whores, and there are people who are simply loud. The loud ones usually annoy me but I figure it's their nature just as much as it is my nature to post moderately, or it is someone else's nature to lurk and never post. I don't really hold it against them, although usually other aspects of their personality cause me to not like them too much. But the true attention whores, yes, they piss me off. Unfortunately there's not much you can do about them unless you're in control of things and are willing to be a bit of a fascist.

I do think that doing the AW thing is setting oneself up to be liked or disliked in a big fat way. If someone has an in-your-face personality, s/he should be prepared for others to react positively and/or negatively, no?

I don't exactly follow garak's distinction between "loud" and "AW" but for me, I'd guess the personalities I don't mind are just loud, whereas the ones I dislike are AWs. :huh:

[songbird36]

If I can be permitted to stick my oar in here, I think it's great that this issue has been discussed sensibly without attacking individuals on here.

I wish more discussions were like this.

[misutii]

On the subject of this thread, I just wonder if other introverts or intps find attention-seeking behavior offensive, or if that's just me being schizoid.

i have a similar complex.... perhaps some envy i'd say, coupled with the fact that i lack the motivation to do anything similar... lately i've been lurking alot, it's an escape from school and i've seemed to have taken a hiatus from girls/drugs/partying so what else am i supposed to do? while i used to find this forum as a positive escape i am seeing much more small talk, and people complaining about hurt feelings.... which is annoying..... it's a relationship in a downward spiral all over again, which is what i come here to escape.

That being said i really appreicate all the posters at times, but at other times some can be frustrating... when you click a topic hoping to learn something only learning that i should have downloaded an episode of the OC instead (example of an unhealthy addiction)

the reason i limit my posting is because i'm aware of my limited knowledge on many issues... other people don't seem to grasp this, even if they don't have anything informative to add to an issue they feel it's their god-given right to tell you what they think. i know things about history and poetry and music, so i add to those threads... i avoid replying to science threads because i know i'm ignorant on those subjects. i don't like forcing my misery and ignorance on others. i don't hold grudges but have tended to skip over posts by people i've designated as 'quantity over quality' posters. i don't like pointing fingers, but we all know those that have over a thousand posts... tend to ramble ? and these include many intps who sometimes blame non-intps for the degradation in quality *cough* amusing

Anyways thank-you deepsky for giving me this chance to rant, that's the longest post i've typed in a while and it felt rather good.

[garak]

If I can be permitted to stick my oar in here, I think it's great that this issue has been discussed sensibly without attacking individuals on here.

I wish more discussions were like this.

Nearly all threads are like this as far as I can tell.

[coffeezombie]

I find attention-seeking behavior easy to ignore. Not all INTPs do, I think, but I think they ignore it easier than some of the other types.

[Avengardh]

I might be the only one but, I find it quite amusing.

Entertaining for a while then it gets old thus I ignore it.

[cjs55]

^^
Thats actually how I feel also!

[songbird36]

Nearly all threads are like this as far as I can tell.

Yeah I guess I've been the subject of a lot of personal attacks. I'm over it, and will simply contribute as I see fit on topics I feel knowledgeable enough to say something useful or interesting about.

[cjs55]

Oh come on now, that doesn't stop the rest of us from posting all over the place.

Well actually, I guess I should speak for myself...

[songbird36]

You're only at 554 you'd better start spamming..

:lol:

[cjs55]

If it happens, I'm blaming you.

[mgb]

i have a similar complex.... perhaps some envy i'd say, coupled with the fact that i lack the motivation to do anything similar... lately i've been lurking alot, it's an escape from school and i've seemed to have taken a hiatus from girls/drugs/partying so what else am i supposed to do? while i used to find this forum as a positive escape i am seeing much more small talk, and people complaining about hurt feelings.... which is annoying..... it's a relationship in a downward spiral all over again, which is what i come here to escape.

That being said i really appreicate all the posters at times, but at other times some can be frustrating... when you click a topic hoping to learn something only learning that i should have downloaded an episode of the OC instead (example of an unhealthy addiction)

the reason i limit my posting is because i'm aware of my limited knowledge on many issues... other people don't seem to grasp this, even if they don't have anything informative to add to an issue they feel it's their god-given right to tell you what they think. i know things about history and poetry and music, so i add to those threads... i avoid replying to science threads because i know i'm ignorant on those subjects. i don't like forcing my misery and ignorance on others. i don't hold grudges but have tended to skip over posts by people i've designated as 'quantity over quality' posters. i don't like pointing fingers, but we all know those that have over a thousand posts... tend to ramble ? and these include many intps who sometimes blame non-intps for the degradation in quality *cough* amusing

Anyways thank-you deepsky for giving me this chance to rant, that's the longest post i've typed in a while and it felt rather good.


C'mon misutii, you know other stuff, don't sell yourself short.

I am not a scientist. I have taken many science courses, even expressed an after hours interest in super strings and other theory ideas in theoretical physics. I couldn't do the math for them if my life depended on it but the discussions on here can be interesting.

There aren't too many forums I avoid, but lots of topics. Sometimes I just don't care. Sometimes I don't care until someone posts a really interesting take. I don't think anyone here should feel boxed out of certain topics because they aren't experts.

[Star]

Nearly all threads are like this as far as I can tell.
Yeah I guess I've been the subject of a lot of personal attacks. I'm over it, and will simply contribute as I see fit on topics I feel knowledgeable enough to say something useful or interesting about.

You thought he was saying nearly all threads are about you? :blink:

lol

:lol:

:: puke ::

[cjs55]

No, I think she was saying the threads she participates in may not be a good representation of the whole due to that fact.

[songbird36]

No he was saying that all threads remain on the issues (as far as I read his comment).

I don't think that's been the case recently.

[cjs55]

I don't know anything anymore =(

[Mariel]

I thought he was saying that most threads don't disintegrate into personal attacks.

[garak]

I thought he was saying that most threads don't disintegrate into personal attacks.
Yeah. As far as staying on topic, hah! Like that's a priority. : P

[songbird36]

Wouldn't be a priority for P's, I'm guessing.

I think divergances are interesting too - my Attraction thread went off on several interesting tangents

[ApeTheDog]

Tangent are only good in so far as that they're not started for their own sake, rather that they'd be the result of a natural flow of conversation.

It is not right that an argument between two or three people should make a conversation between the majority of the other contributors to the thread impossible. Especially not when said argument is done for their own amusement, and indeed only serves to accomplish that, whilst a thread about a certain subject can amuse everybody at once. These masturbatory fights that pop up in threads, regardless of topic, are not much fun to read. Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but I suspect not.

Is it fun to pick on people? Yes. Is it okay? Sure. Does that mean you can do it anywhere? No. In the same way as having a piss against a tree is okay. But it is not if you do it in somebodies garden when they're having a barbecue.

That said, there is definately a part of me that wishes more attention for myself too, and it would really not be fair of me to criticise those who are succesfull at something when I aspires to it as well, merely *because* they are succesful at it.

[Architectonic]

Am I the only person on this site who is not capable of developing deep animosity to people because of their views or personality? Right now I feel that I am (and maybe I would include Geoff too).

I wouldn't say not capable, but I would say that it is very uncommon for me to form deep animosity for many people and extremely unlikely on this forum in particular. There is no-one I dislike on this forum.

I have admittedly taken a few pot-shots at people on occasion, but it is generally all in good fun.

Am I sure I'm an INTP?

[coffeezombie]

I don't like picking on people if it will hurt them, but some people deserve to be retaliated against for the idiotic stuff they spew out on here. I welcome the same if someone disagrees with me.

[songbird36]

You seem a very typical rational INTP to me.

Others (a few) seem rather emotional in discussions. I can't quite figure this.

[Geoff]

Exactly...and I find that both surprising and a little disconcerting.

Like deepsky's comment that she likes to hold grudges.. and argue with people she 'hates'. That is quite a revelation for me, that anyone would bother feeling like that at all! All that emotionality, incredible.

Maybe I am just too serene to get involved, but when I post (and I post a lot) it is because I have something I want to say, not because I want attention. Sometimes I will play with people in a post, but that is about interacting with them, not because I want to detour people down a tangential road.

-Geoff

[MacGuffin]

I don't understand the grudges part. That is more like my wife (an ISTJ). Certain members can annoy at times, but I usually just avoid them. Other members, like mgbradsh, on some days I plot to jump on a plane and fly to Canada and set him on fire, and other days we are in total agreement.

[booyalab]

Other members, like mgbradsh, on some days I plot to jump on a plane and fly to Canada and set him on fire

:rofl:


Anyways, I find terms like 'attention whore' a misnomer when it hasn't been self-applied. It's always alogical to pretend you know someone else's motivation for doing anything, unless they have told you "I whore myself for attention" or if the person is you and you know you're doing it for attention.

I think Shai Gar, for instance, might be considered an attention whore, but there are a host of other reasons that might be equally applicable to why he acts the way he does. If he's like me, one reason might be that he considers the forum an outlet for expression in ways that would overextend himself IRL. (INTPs dont like to be overextended)
I think CC might also be considered an attention whore by some. I think the same reason I postulated for Shai Gar might apply to her, but in a more social sense (since she's a feeler). She enjoys interacting with people and finds humor in it, but if she were to act that way IRL, it would be draining because she's an introvert. So this place is also an outlet for her.

I might be totally wrong with my examples, but that's not my point. My point is the motivation you assume in someone else is probably more indicative of how you are than what that person is...since our natural inclinations are to fill in the blanks we perceive in other people with aspects of our personalities.

[CreativeChaos]

:rofl:


Anyways, I find terms like 'attention whore' a misnomer when it hasn't been self-applied. It's always alogical to pretend you know someone else's motivation for doing anything, unless they have told you "I whore myself for attention" or if the person is you and you know you're doing it for attention.

I think Shai Gar, for instance, might be considered an attention whore, but there are a host of other reasons that might be equally applicable to why he acts the way he does. If he's like me, one reason might be that he considers the forum an outlet for expression in ways that would overextend himself IRL. (INTPs dont like to be overextended)
I think CC might also be considered an attention whore by some. I think the same reason I postulated for Shai Gar might apply to her, but in a more social sense (since she's a feeler). She enjoys interacting with people and finds humor in it, but if she were to act that way IRL, it would be draining because she's an introvert. So this place is also an outlet for her.I might be totally wrong with my examples, but that's not my point. My point is the motivation you assume in someone else is probably more indicative of how you are than what that person is...since our natural inclinations are to fill in the blanks we perceive in other people with aspects of our personalities.

Gee, thanks Boo. :) I couldn't have said it better myself. Gee, I feel really understood. What you stated about me is precisely the case. Wow! I'm impressed! :huh: :wub:

Edit: And I totally agree. I especially like the last paragraph. Being quiet irl, I get people "projecting" on me all the time, irl. VERY wise and mature of you, beyond your years.

[booyalab]

Hmm, awesome :D

The fact that I knew her motivation might seem to contradict what I said. But, while I think one's natural inclination is to project, I took Shai Gar and CC's personalities into account..and also used my Ne (I thought it was safe to project onto Shai Gar, actually, since we're allegedly the same type and I think we both might come across as obnoxious). So that was an 'unnatural' assessment.

[indie]

My theory on the psychology behind attention whoring (for example, a large post count in a short period of time) is that a lot of people really want to feel like they "belong" to the community. Perhaps this sense of belonging is directly correlated to post count . . . for a lot of members this translates into "flurry of posts mode enabled" during the initial time they find the site, posting on all the topics that the person finds interesting. Though that person might post a lot when they first join, the relative # of posts eventually evens out and levels off. For other people, however, that sense of belonging translates into having a nickname above their avatar. Thus, the seemingly intangential threads develop or veer off topic, when somebody accuses somebody else of "not being INTP" or for the "non-INTPs" to get lost. That is one way to destroy a person's sense of belonging, and it's probably one of the main reasons people get upset and start flame wars.


I remember lots of things and I develop a "feel" for a person, good or bad, and it rarely changes. The people I don't like I either ignore if convenient, or try to make look stupid otherwise. I LOVE making them look stupid, although it is an artform to calmly do so without giving out signs of desperation and making yourself look just as bad as them. But generally, it doesn't eat me up and once I'm distracted from the situation I won't even remember it until it jumps in my face again.

I, too, remember a lot of things and develop a "feel" for a person, though it's not always so black or white as "good or bad." For a lot of us, this is the first time we've found a place where maybe we might actually fit in and not be ridiculed for our thoughts or ideas, no matter how wild or nonsensical those ideas might be. What *should* unite us as a forum is our love of ideas and theories, coupled with respect for respect for others' thoughts and ideas.

BTW, I really dislike that phrase, "Attention Whore." Why isn't it "Attention Gigolo?" There are more men than women on this site, after all . . . :smooch:

[booyalab]

Attributing a large post count solely to "being an attention whore" is like attributing a million dollars in your bank account solely to "being a greedy bastard". Where do you even draw the line?


I have a large post count. Prove your assertion that I'm an attention whore. Use logic and empirical evidence.

[indie]

i.e. = "for example"

Which means: For example, people who rack up a large post count in a relatively short period of time.

Perhaps I should have said "posts per day" as opposed to "large post count," to be more clear.

[booyalab]

i.e. = "for example"

Which means: For example, people who rack up a large post count in a relatively short period of time.

Perhaps I should have said "posts per day" as opposed to "large post count," to be more clear.

How does that prove any specific motivation? I'm unconvinced

BTW, I dont care that you're inferring that I'm an attention whore. I care that the term "attention whore" is an emotional label that is not based on reality.....but the way this discussion is going, most people act like it is a realistic observation.

[indie]

I have a large post count. Prove your assertion that I'm an attention whore. Use logic and empirical evidence.

I never said anything about *you* being an attention whore.

You're reading way too much into it. I said what I wanted to say; you don't have to agree with it.

[Star]

My theory on the psychology behind attention whoring (i.e. large post count) is that a lot of people really want to feel like they "belong" to the community. Perhaps this sense of belonging is directly correlated to post count . . . for a lot of members this translates into "flurry of posts mode enabled" during the initial time they find the site, posting on all the topics that the person finds interesting. Though that person might post a lot when they first join, the relative # of posts eventually evens out and levels off.

This is exactly what I did, down to the 'flurry of posts mode' thing in my signature. I was aware of what I was doing but didn't try to moderate myself. The people here seemed enough like me that I figured I'd just go with it.




BTW, I really dislike that phrase, "Attention Whore." Why isn't it "Attention Gigolo?" There are more men than women on this site, after all . . . :smooch:

I agree, somewhat. However I think 'whore' is one of the few insults originally aimed at women only that does now apply to both genders, and it's doubly demeaning when directed at a male. I like it that way. :)

It's also become part of the jargon here, which is why I used it.

[booyalab]

I never said anything about *you* being an attention whore.

No you didnt...You were very careful not to call anyone, specifically, an attention whore. But of course you do, because if you honestly couldnt think of anyone specifically, you wouldn't even be talking about it...this ties into a theory I have that people who use words like "attention whore" are projecting the fact that they care a lot about what other people think of them onto people who are more verbally prolific than they are.



You're reading way too much into it. I dont think you're reading enough into it.


I said what I wanted to say; you don't have to agree with it
Oh I dont?????? THANKS :)

[indie]

This is exactly what I did, down to the 'flurry of posts mode' thing in my signature. I was aware of what I was doing but didn't try to moderate myself. The people here seemed enough like me that I figured I'd just go with it.

LOL, yes, I knew I'd seen that phrase somewhere on the boards.

RE the "Attention Whore" thing, maybe that is why booya flipped and thought I was talking about her. . . I wasn't talking about ANYONE specifically. . . but the phrase itself conjures up a "female" image, and since there really aren't that many of us, it seems a bit ridiculous to be using it.

[booyalab]

by the way, I meant it when I said I didnt care whether you think I'm an attention whore or not.....my goal was to challenge you to make a logical argument for your side using specifics.

[Star]

Like deepsky's comment that she likes to hold grudges.. and argue with people she 'hates'. That is quite a revelation for me, that anyone would bother feeling like that at all! All that emotionality, incredible.


Nah, I don't think it's emotion. It's preparedness and heightened awareness. Know your enemy, pearls before swine, etc. I don't think analyzing social situations makes me a feeler, heh. A feeler wouldn't be so nitpickingly interested in why everyone does every little thing that they do, and how and why everyone interacts in all the various ways that they do, would they?

[booyalab]

LOL, yes, I knew I'd seen that phrase somewhere on the boards.

RE the "Attention Whore" thing, maybe that is why booya flipped and thought I was talking about her. . . I wasn't talking about ANYONE specifically. . . but the phrase itself conjures up a "female" image, and since there really aren't that many of us, it seems a bit ridiculous to be using it.

Well, no I didnt think you were talking about me. I dont think the world revolves around me. (see my last post)
I agree it's ridiculous to be using it but the fact that you gave reasons for why people are attention whores didn't give me the impression that you thought it was ridiculous. Also the fact that you made a connection between 'attention whoring' and 'post counts' made me think that you believe it's ok to call people attention whores:whistle:

[Star]

I have a large post count. Prove your assertion that I'm an attention whore. Use logic and empirical evidence.

I always just assumed you were on speed.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[booyalab]

I always just assumed you were on speed.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I wasn't talking to you ;P

lol btw

nah, I type insanely fast and I comprehend what I read even faster.

[Trolsk]

i.e. = "for example"
i.e. = "that is"
e.g. = "for example"

[booyalab]

heh, yep, huge difference in that context.

"Attention whoring (that is, large post count)"
vs
"Attention whoring (for example, large post count)"

[Trolsk]

nah, I type insanely fast and I comprehend what I read even faster.
That's secondary to the (natural) inclination to respond.

[booyalab]

That's secondary to the (natural) inclination to respond.

Look at deepsky's post. She thought I was on speed. I think speed gives you more superficial energy, but I dont think it has anything to do with the inclination to respond. So I explained why I am able to post frequently.

[Trolsk]

Yes, but my answer applies before your's :) I think the Enneagram touches upon this with its instinctual variants.

[booyalab]

Yes, but my answer applies before your's :) I think the Enneagram touches upon this with its instinctual variants.
fair enough.

I dont know all the reasons that I post alot, but I do know some reasons that dont apply. *meaningful look*

[CreativeChaos]

Nah, I don't think it's emotion. It's preparedness and heightened awareness. Know your enemy, pearls before swine, etc. I don't think analyzing social situations makes me a feeler, heh. A feeler wouldn't be so nitpickingly interested in why everyone does every little thing that they do, and how and why everyone interacts in all the various ways that they do, would they?

Uh... this is exactly what this feeler does. I would expect that NFs in general would be VERY interested. That is if they are interested in type, as I am, and psychology. I stayed away from this until I saw it starting to become a calm, reasoned, discussion about people. This is very much an NF kind of discussion. Hate to tell you guys. Heh!

But the reasons as to why they are interested may be different. And if Boo was giving an "unnatural" sense of motivation to my INFP attention whoring, as in posting a lot, I'll just stick to "correcting" you guys when you take "guesses" about feelers. Because I am the only INFP attention whore here, it would be unproductive to talk about my brand.

[Trolsk]

booya: I'm not saying anything beyond it being a part of character.

[Star]

But the reasons as to why they are interested may be different.

Agreed. I sure as hell don't want any group hugs or harmony to come out of it. The more conflict, the better. ;)

[CreativeChaos]

Agreed. I sure as hell don't want any group hugs or harmony to come out of it. The more conflict, the better. ;)

Heh. Here is a possible example. You might call this post an attention whore post, but I always feel compelled to respond to people's posts.

My natural inclincation to post?


Haa! Awwwwwww..... no group hugs! :wub: Pooh! :(

But then deepsky doesn't want that so I won't post it. The above sentence is a non-post, just an example of a possible post. Hee!

[Trolsk]

Oh, she's found a loophole. :)

[CreativeChaos]

Oh, she's found a loophole. :)

Hee! :D

[mgb]

I don't know Indie, you might have stepped in it on this one.

I would say my high post count and high posts per day have been because of flurries of activity. I kind of agree with boo that you can't really draw a line at what is a lot of posts or posts per day and try and find a correlation with someone looking for attention. A lot of my posts have come out of on topic arguments and off topic ramblings with people like Melan.

I think I tend to spend more time here, but that is out of boredom. The longer I am here the less sense of community I feel, which is probably why a lot of people leave in the first place, or go MIA. I have a small few people I talk to from here, but in general I really don't care if people here come and go.

As for nicknames, personally, I didn't care, it's kind of fun, but not the be all and all. I like my nickname, but I didn't go to any lengths to get it.

So to define whoring (and guys can be whores too, so I think the term isn't gender specific) I think the best definition might be someone who makes posts that call attention to oneself out of context to a thread or the forum in general. There are lots of examples where a thread on say, attention whoring and how it is negative, can turn into a thread on "why do people pick on me?"

[Claverhouse]

If I can be permitted to stick my oar in here, I think it's great that this issue has been discussed sensibly without attacking individuals on here.

I wish more discussions were like this.
Yeah, no personalities brought in, in any way; and nobody taking anything personally... excellent.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[ That said, I took the opening post as a direct attack on myself, and was very hurt. ]

[SensEye]

Attributing a large post count solely to "being an attention whore" is like attributing a million dollars in your bank account solely to "being a greedy bastard". Where do you even draw the line?


I have a large post count. Prove your assertion that I'm an attention whore. Use logic and empirical evidence.Your large post count is not the result of attention whoring. You commited a crime much worse. To wit, you along with Zedo and mgbrdsh, would repeatedly engage in personal chat like discussions on various threads. It was much more annoying than mere attention whoring.

But you and the two amigos have reformed your ways and moved to instant messaging I presume, so no point in ragging on you about it now.


Yeah I guess I've been the subject of a lot of personal attacks.I've always wondered if you understood why or if you felt they were undeserved. Would you be so kind as to satisfy my curiosity?

[Geoff]

Look at deepsky's post. She thought I was on speed. I think speed gives you more superficial energy, but I dont think it has anything to do with the inclination to respond. So I explained why I am able to post frequently.

I think speed of response is partly an inclination to post. I type far faster than I would care to admit (years of abuse, :lol: ). So as a result it is very little effort to post a long answer to something. And a short response takes just a second or two. When typing is faster than speaking then it is no little difference to holding a conversation.

So maybe that is partly a difference, those who like to sit back and think, and then post a long meaningful post (that might take them a long time to proofread and post) perhaps get a little irritated by people jumping in with quick and short (or something quick, long and often) throwaway comments. I've *seen* people complain that 'you guys' (typically people like Boo and I who whizz through postings at very high speed when we are active) are too fast to keep up with. We are holding conversations, other people are engaged in a group correspondence. Is that maybe causing part of the annoyance?

Just a speculation.

-Geoff

[prometheusdestroyed]

All right, here's why I do it.

When I first came here, this forum was all about ideas and brainstorming and the meeting of like minds; there were new things to learn, and I couldn't see anything but posts and ideas. After I'd been here a while personalites started to stand out--seemed to make a conscious effort to stand out, in fact.



According to your profile you came here in Jan 2005. Perhaps your perception changed over the 5 minutes you have been here. Or perhaps your involvment changed things.

[Star]

According to your profile you came here in Jan 2005. Perhaps your perception changed over the 5 minutes you have been here.

I lurked a while before registering an account.

[songbird36]

Agreed. I sure as hell don't want any group hugs or harmony to come out of it. The more conflict, the better. ;)

You're looking to turn this place into a school playground then?

[Geoff]

You're looking to turn this place into a school playground then?

But it is my turn on the swings! I'll tell my Mum I will..

Seriously, though, you make a good point. Why would someone actively seek conflict while at the same time complaining about the posting styles of various people, unless they have no other intention other than childish arguing and 'troll' behaviour.

-Geoff

[songbird36]

I'd like an answer to this, since this rant was aimed primarily at me right from the inception.

[garak]

:huh:

[songbird36]

I've always wondered if you understood why or if you felt they were undeserved. Would you be so kind as to satisfy my curiosity?

No I have no idea. My ideas and posting style (and frequency) are quite similar to Boo's, and yet I get repeatedly attacked by certain individuals on here, and she does not.

The hatred some people evidently have for me seems irrational to me, as I don't harbour those sort of resentments toward anyone else.

I asked Zedo for an explanation of his animosity and all he came up with is that I am an INTJ, post frequently, and he often disagrees with my views. That doesn't seem sufficient grounds for hatred in my books.

[melancholeric]

A lot of my posts have come out of on topic arguments and off topic ramblings with people like Melan.
Are you blaming me for your attention whoring? You're on ignore from now on.

I rarely do it anyway. And when I do, it's not for attention nor increasing my post count. Just plain fun. ( On the other hand, I'm reaching 666. Exciting, isn't it? )

I've been lurking more than posting lately anyway.


I think I tend to spend more time here, but that is out of boredom. The longer I am here the less sense of community I feel, which is probably why a lot of people leave in the first place, or go MIA. I have a small few people I talk to from here, but in general I really don't care if people here come and go.
Somehow I know what you mean... I think it's partly because this has become more of a fucking soap opera. Or maybe that's what this was to begin with, but it took time to notice.


So to define whoring (and guys can be whores too, so I think the term isn't gender specific) I think the best definition might be someone who posts that call attention to oneself out of context to a thread or the forum in general. There are lots of examples where a thread on say, attention whoring and how it is negative, can turn into a thread on "why do people pick on me?"
Or, "why does everyone love me". Of course, we're not bringing in any names...

[mgb]

Are you blaming me for your attention whoring? You're on ignore from now on.

I rarely do it anyway. And when I do, it's not for attention nor increasing my post count. Just plain fun. ( On the other hand, I'm reaching 666. Exciting, isn't it? )

Or, "why does everyone love me". Of course, we're not bringing in any names...

I'm not blaming you for off topic rambles (which incidently were done more for my/our amusement than that forum as a whole and therefore should not be considered whoring), just saying that you happened to be my partner in crime more than once. Even the leader in some cases. Put in a good work with Santa for me. ;)

And us mention names? Heavens no. I am going to unlock the case to my very small violin soon and start playing it, LOUD.

[garak]

I think being INTJ mostly covers it.


If I can be permitted to stick my oar in here, I think it's great that this issue has been discussed sensibly without attacking individuals on here.

I wish more discussions were like this.
^ This, to me, came off as an annoying drama queen whine. The discussion was interesting and here you go getting all accusatory and confrontational. I'm guessing your idea of attack is quite different from mine.


I'd like an answer to this, since this rant was aimed primarily at me right from the inception.
?!?! It was? Deepsky even said it wasn't primarily about you.

Random other posts I'm looking through:

It doesn't belong anywhere, it's disgusting, vulgar and unworthy of the calibre of this site.
Calibre? Hahahaha come on. I thought it was hilarious. Your uptightness and ice-cold seriousness about it are a complete shock to the senses.
misutii said it perfectly: i'm just utterly frustrated when people want to act as "authority figures" in this forum, if you're not an admin and you don't like a topic, then too bad, ignore it and find one that you like instead of plaguing other members with incessant whining. What's right and wrong is not subjective to your opinion and im quite sure most other posters don't care what you or anyone else finds inappropriiate or vulgar (unless of course they ask you).

Ah screw it I'm too lazy to look for more good examples. Anyways yeah, it is pretty well accepted that INTPs and INTJs can rub each other quite the wrong way, so I'm not sure why you're constantly baffled at the friction you encounter here.

And as far as my comments on how your posts "come off" to me, yes, I realize you probably don't mean them exactly that way, but that doesn't really matter in the end IMO.

edit: and the problem is not "disagreeing with your views"; it is an entirely different mindset and attitude about everything. If disagreeing with views was a problem, then every discussion/debate here would turn into a toilet, and they don't.

[songbird36]

This thread *was* about me garak. Deepsky said on another thread that she was going to post a rant about me, and did so.

Incidentally regarding the boobs picture, Booyalab made a very similar comment to mine (about the pictures being inappropriate etc). However I get labelled as an authority figure and she does not.

And regarding what I mean by attacks, I mean the type of thing Mgbradsh posted about me on the "non-sexual things I hate about forum members thread", that I assume has now been removed by the admins. I mean Zedo posting things about my low IQ and me being retarded etc etc. I don't mean people disagreeing with my views on topics, as they are perfectly entitled to do.

My position on attacks is as follows. People have a right to dislike me if they choose. They even have a right to dislike me for no good reason. What they don't have a right to do is post venom about me on this forum for everyone else to read. I don't do it, and I don't expect others to. There have to be some standards here.

[garak]

Perhaps you missed this:


Songbird may read this thread and think I am talking about her personally, but I'm really not.



Incidentally regarding the boobs picture, Booyalab made a very similar comment to mine (about the pictures being inappropriate etc). However I get labelled as an authority figure and she does not.
Um, not really. She said it should be moved to the mature forum and then sort of shrugged it off. I think everyone would agree that it belongs in the mature forum. You, on the other hand, got on a high horse and denounced it as if it was the most vile thing on earth, and at the same time presumptuously suggested that these forums have some sort of standards that align with yours, even though you know you're an extreme minority here.

It's things like this that make me even more frustrated with you. You say things that don't even make sense! Booyalab's post was completely different from yours, and that seems blatantly obvious to me. The fact that I've wasted any breath on something so obvious and stupid makes me even more frustrated, because the breath wasting only seems to increase when I start arguing with you. And yet, I feel that I have a valid reason to try and talk sense to you. Blah.

edit: I think it is this same frustration that drives others to resort to attacks. It certainly would be relieving, though I know it would help nothing.

:mad:

[songbird36]

Booyalab also said she didn't think this forum was the place for stuff like that. Others who looked at the pictures had similar opinions.

I'm not going to argue with you. Yes I found those pictures vile. I have the right to state that opinion and you to disagree with me. Apart from that one post I had no intention of making a big issue of it.

[mgb]

This thread *was* about me garak. Deepsky said on another thread that she was going to post a rant about me, and did so.

Incidentally regarding the boobs picture, Booyalab made a very similar comment to mine (about the pictures being inappropriate etc). However I get labelled as an authority figure and she does not.

And regarding what I mean by attacks, I mean the type of thing Mgbradsh posted about me on the "non-sexual things I hate about forum members thread", that I assume has now been removed by the admins. I mean Zedo posting things about my low IQ and me being retarded etc etc. I don't mean people disagreeing with my views on topics, as they are perfectly entitled to do.

My position on attacks is as follows. People have a right to dislike me if they choose. They even have a right to dislike me for no good reason. What they don't have a right to do is post venom about me on this forum for everyone else to read. I don't do it, and I don't expect others to. There have to be some standards here.

Nope still there.

My response was a direct reply to:



Don't get what exactly? That you and Zedo hate me for some unknown, inscrutable reason?

Perhaps because I have opinions you don't always agree with? That's not good enough reason to hate someone.

Which was a reply to a statement made by me which was in reply to a comment made by you after I explicitly told you not to quote me or chase me around the boards attacking things that I have said because I didn't want to turn into another Zedo and I don't think personal gripes belong on the board.

This thread was started as a rant about attention whores and was carefully started so as not to seem like it was attacking one person. But good ol' songbird just goes ahead and takes it as an insult anyways. Seriously lady, why don't you get a grip?

edit: and just because you thinly veil and insult or insult someone and put a question mark at the end, it doesn't mean that you are insulting them any less.

For example, starting a thread/poll about who is the youngest idiot on the site. You put Zedo and my names on there and I hadn't done anything to you. I realize Division did it to you first did but take it up with him. And then you have the fucking nerve two days later to sit there and complain about people attacking you?

[songbird36]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=74331&postcount=12

[songbird36]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=74418&postcount=21

[garak]

Booyalab also said she didn't think this forum was the place for stuff like that. Others who looked at the pictures had similar opinions.


I thought it was in the wrong forum, told him that, and now it's in the right forum. Whoopdy doo


I'm not going to argue with you. Yes I found those pictures vile. I have the right to state that opinion and you to disagree with me.

It doesn't belong anywhere, it's disgusting, vulgar and unworthy of the calibre of this site.

In case you missed the others' responses to you in that thread, they didn't exactly respond lovingly towards your rabid denouncement of something silly and humorous. When you state an "opinion" so strongly, it comes off as nearly a call to action. You didn't say "personally I think this is unworthy of the site"; you said that it doesn't belong anywhere (stated as fact, not opinion), and then proceeded to overreact to something amusing, again suggesting that your values somehow translate into this site's "calibre."

[Claverhouse]

Put in a good work with Santa for me. ;)
Santa is not God; and melancholeric is not roman catholic.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[melancholeric]

Santa is not God; and melancholeric is not roman catholic.


Santa is way cooler than god, and my religious affiliation bears little relevance to this conversation.

We could have had a constructive discussion about attention whoring in general, but somehow one member managed to get all attention.

And this particular member isn't even the worst example of attention whoring anyway....

[Claverhouse]

Santa is way cooler than god, and my religious affiliation bears little relevance to this conversation.

'Good work' = RCs believe that their good works achieve salvation, as opposed to the protestant doctrine of Faith alone...

Oh, what's the use... ;P

As your confessor I order you to go to Schatten (http://www.clubschatten.net/uutiset.php)'s and perform an act of contrition.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[kuranes]

And then there are those of us who tend to ramble in long posts, which is perhaps considered by some to be an even viler sin than having high short chat/post counts. Yet when I read descriptions of INTP's before finding this site - it seemed like such rambling was supposed to be one hallmark ( of many ) of the breed; not that everyone need do so etc. If threads can ramble serendipitously - why can't posts?

[Geoff]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=74418&postcount=21

she does have a point here, it does seem directed at her primarily. Even if you think she is overreacting, it isnt unreasonable to take a little umbrage at this thread.

Deepsky might have said it wasnt, but look at those two links, it is really.

I suspect, however, that a lot of this is the 'no smoke without fire' type of circular arguments... it's just so "here we go again" for me...

-Geoff

[misutii]

Booyalab also said she didn't think this forum was the place for stuff like that. Others who looked at the pictures had similar opinions.
.

please check post #15 of that thread, i put booyalab in her place, indeed i responded to her twice (so far) and never responded to you on that thread. maybe some other people are biased against you but i want you to know that not EVERYONE is biased against you more than other people,
songbird i want you to stay here and because i am self-proclaimed lurker extraordinaire that's all that matters, but on some issues you just need more of a "guess what? i dont give a fuck" attitude. despite what Fs might believe, apathy is a respectable attitude,
just some advice from your local self-absorbed cynic

[misutii]

And then there are those of us who tend to ramble in long posts, which is perhaps considered by some to be an even viler sin than having high short chat/post counts. Yet when I read descriptions of INTP's before finding this site - it seemed like such rambling was supposed to be one hallmark ( of many ) of the breed; not that everyone need do so etc. If threads can ramble serendipitously - why can't posts?

im all for rambling, in fact i think you should make more responses and when people reply trying to shoot you down, or indeed ignoring you because they're too lazy to read your informative posts you should just re-post what you have already posted, and what the other ignorant poster has ignored, to put them in their proper place. in other words, post more!

[melancholeric]

As your confessor I order you to go to Schatten (http://www.clubschatten.net/uutiset.php)'s and perform an act of contrition.

Those goths are just hilarious....

http://www.clubschatten.net/kuvat/seereise/synkat.jpg

Now, how is this relevant to my religious affiliation (or lack thereof), Santa, or the conversation about attention whoring?

[mgb]

she does have a point here, it does seem directed at her primarily. Even if you think she is overreacting, it isnt unreasonable to take a little umbrage at this thread.

Deepsky might have said it wasnt, but look at those two links, it is really.

I suspect, however, that a lot of this is the 'no smoke without fire' type of circular arguments... it's just so "here we go again" for me...

-Geoff

Give me a break Geoff.

Once could assume using your logic that songbird started the thread about "traits you despise the most" as an attack on me after I responded to her inquiry since it occured right after. But I didn't go on a huge tirade about how I was being attacked.

The fact is a lot of threads here are inspired by other threads. Did deepsky get the idea from the other thread, probably, but that doesn't mean it was targetted at anyone in particular. Rants are rants, no matter how they start. This thread didn't become about songbird until songbird made it become about songbird.

[Claverhouse]

Those goths are just hilarious....
If you think they're odd, you should check out Young Conservatives, in any country...



Now, how is this relevant to my religious affiliation (or lack thereof), Santa, or the conversation about attention whoring?
An allusive joke based on a misspelt word. I'll do the contrition bit.

As for the conversation about attention whoring, I stopped paying attention: most of the posts seemed like cries for help.

And attention.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[mgb]

If you think they're odd, you should check out Young Conservatives, in any country...


An allusive joke based on a misspelt word. I'll do the contrition bit.



I got it once I realized my typo. Oh well.

[songbird36]

Now these are your typical attention whores..

perhaps I'll start dressing in black leather...

[SensEye]

No I have no idea. My ideas and posting style (and frequency) are quite similar to Boo's, and yet I get repeatedly attacked by certain individuals on here, and she does not.

The hatred some people evidently have for me seems irrational to me, as I don't harbour those sort of resentments toward anyone else.

I asked Zedo for an explanation of his animosity and all he came up with is that I am an INTJ, post frequently, and he often disagrees with my views. That doesn't seem sufficient grounds for hatred in my books.OK, I just wanted to be clear. It seems obvious to me, and probably most others here, why you grate on some people. In fact, I think certain individuals get even more annoyed with you because it is so obvious they think you are feigning ignorance.

Now a few observations. Your posting style is not similar to Boo's. Boo comes across as tongue in cheek or at least only semi-serious most of the time, much like her femi-nazi avatar. You seem dead serious all of the time. The difference is subtle, but it's clearly there, it may very well be an INTJ vs INTP thing that you don’t see it.

Regarding Zedo, he is a somewhat atypical for this forum. I wouldn't let him get to you. I can assure you his opinions are not representative of the majority.

You are right that you do get attacked more often and with more vitriol than most people. Macstann is on the right track when he says it's not what you say, it's your approach and how you say it. Unfortunately, his tone is overly confrontational and provocative. He should know this will put you on the defensive and you will likely not hear his message.

You are very opinionated. However, so are most of the people here. However, when you disagree with someone your posts have a very narrow minded tone. You come across as saying: “Your opinion is wrong, mine is right, end of story”. Nothing irritates the INTP nature more than this kind of close-minded authoritarian approach.

Compare and contrast to the usual form of INTP disagreement, where one will go through the others opinion point by point expressing where he differs and why. This is a much more open-ended approach and invites counter argument. With your approach, people just think it’s hopeless to even discuss the topic further, and switch to insulting you instead.

The other issue is your judgmental attitude. It’s not only that, it’s that you are quick to point out what you consider to be incorrigible behavior in others, while being completely blind to your own, often equally incorrigible behavior. I know when I read some of your posts the cliché that goes through my mind is “Physician, heal thyself!”. And you get even more defensive than INTPs (who hate judgmental attitudes) when you are criticized.

Now, I don’t necessarily expect you to agree that people should get offended by your INTJ behavior style, however, I hope you can perceive that they are, the proof being rather self evident.

[songbird36]

Well obviously you didn't read the religion thread where I took time and trouble to refute peoples' points one by one, and often several times over.

There comes a point where it actually takes a tremendous amount of time and energy and as I'm sitting here doing paid work as well a lot of the time, I don't have hours to engage in a complex refutation of someone's argument.

So yes I can appear dogmatic at times, but I am actually open to be persuaded to another point of view if I see merit in it. That has happened a number of times recently, but only in respect of people who argue their views clearly and effectively (which isn't always the case).

And no I am not invariably serious - if you read my posts you will see that a lot of them are jokey or teasing. If I'm discussing a serious issue I will try not to be flippant for the sake of it.

[Edmond Zedo]

Well obviously you didn't read the religion thread where I took time and trouble to refute peoples' points one by one, and often several times over.
If your foundation is mush, your refutations mean nothing, of course. I believe it is. And I'd love to go into vibrant detail of why I think so little of you, but I'd just get banned.

[songbird36]

Go ahead. I won't be complaining to anyone.

Why not get it off your chest like others have?

[Geoff]

Do we have to do this guys? To what end.. geeze...

-Geoff

[mgb]

Do we have to do this guys? To what end.. geeze...

-Geoff

Grow a dick.

[Geoff]

Ah, I dont need to, you clearly have enough for all of us :smooch:

-Geoff

[mgb]

Ah, I dont need to, you clearly have enough for all of us :smooch:

-Geoff

Zingggg!!!!

[Eileen]

I guess I haven't ever completed a weighing-in post on this topic.

Attention whoring does irritate me and always has. While I enjoy being a lively part of conversations, the last thing I really want is to be personally at the center of one. I might share personal experiences as potentially relevant examples of something, but that's where I usually try to draw the line with that. When I see people stepping over the lines I've drawn for myself, I can't help but sometimes be a little annoyed. It doesn't piss me off or anything, but it can impede my enjoyment of a discussion.

The problem I see with songbird, since apparently we're talking about her, is that she is fully capable of making good, interesting, and insightful posts; however, she tends to take criticism very personally. There have been times when I thought that her offended reaction to criticism was absolutely warranted, and other times when I thought that she was letting it bother her far too much. And what happens is that songbird gets really wrapped up in defensiveness and responding to the criticism that would probably be best ignored and is taken away from posting as thoroughly and thoughtfully as she is capable on other more interesting topics. I think that what some people might call "attention whoring" is really just extreme defensiveness and sometimes paranoia. And others sometimes respond in such a way that feeds these emotions rather than soothes (and yes, I do recognize that it's not really an INTP "thing" to soothe; I'm just sayin').

[Eileen]

Also, in response to what SensEye was saying about songbird's argument style, I think that she came in with a pretty similar, open-minded way of arguing to INTPs, but now might anticipate criticism and thus come across as more dogmatic than she actually is.

[indie]

I have a large post count. Prove your assertion that I'm an attention whore. Use logic and empirical evidence.

I never "asserted" that *you*, booyalab, are an attention whore to begin with, which is *why* I never mentioned you at all, until you jumped in and started to make it "all about you."


Well, no I didnt think you were talking about me. I dont think the world revolves around me. (see my last post)


by the way, I meant it when I said I didnt care whether you think I'm an attention whore or not.....my goal was to challenge you to make a logical argument for your side using specifics.

Thanks, but I'll pass. I wasn't trying to make an "argument," I was merely stating a theory. (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=74786&postcount=36)

***

In conclusion:

What *should* unite us as a forum is our love of ideas and theories, coupled with respect for others' thoughts and ideas.

[songbird36]

Also, in response to what SensEye was saying about songbird's argument style, I think that she came in with a pretty similar, open-minded way of arguing to INTPs, but now might anticipate criticism and thus come across as more dogmatic than she actually is.

Thank you that's exactly right

[Edmond Zedo]

I've an idea. Why don't you introverted irrational types totally and absolutely abstain from telling us what would be a good idea.

[SensEye]

Also, in response to what SensEye was saying about songbird's argument style, I think that she came in with a pretty similar, open-minded way of arguing to INTPs, but now might anticipate criticism and thus come across as more dogmatic than she actually is.That's possible. Keep in mind songbird doesn't particularly bother me, I was simply commenting on how I can see she may grate on others. Whether she really is dogmatic or not, she does come across that way (often, not always).

If she can lighten up a bit in general she should be able to get along better with everyone.

It will be a good test if she can resist a comeback to Zedo's comment that follows her last post. She may assume he is directing that comment to her. I don't think so, but I don't really know who he is trying to bait this time (indie maybe?).

[mgb]

I think he was going after INFs, or Eileen to be more specific. It was the introverted IRrationals that gave it away for me.

[Eileen]

but I don't really know who he is trying to bait this time (indie maybe?).

I think he's probably trying to bait me (indie is INTP, I believe, so not an "introverted irrational"), but I don't really give a good god damn.

[Edmond Zedo]

The Introverted Irrational types are the Introverted Intuiting type and the Introverted Sensing type.

And I'm not trying to "bait" anyone.

[tragula]

Sigh. I can't believe I'm jumping in to this mess!

First off. Why can't someone be an introvert and an attention whore! Huh! Answer me that!! Why do we have to put everyone in little boxes.... :mad: :)

Secondly. To me this is another pick on Songbird thread. It's like she has a target on her back and then people smell blood in the water and go into attack mode.

People get defensive when they are constantly attacked. I think it's clear in this instance, again, that she was just defending herself vigorously. Some people do that. It would be nice if everyone learned how to deflect a criticism gracefully and cheerfully. But it's important not to lose sight of who the aggressors are.

Songbird is probably one of the most logical people here I think. And she clearly has a sense of humor too, which is more than I can say about most members.

Saying that you find someone's personality grating is absolutely meaningless bullshit. The forum has rules, and so long as members aren't breaking those rules they should be treated with common courtesy.

Ok. I'm off now to look at some real threads! Peace. :sombrero:

[garak]

Well obviously you didn't read the religion thread where I took time and trouble to refute peoples' points one by one, and often several times over.

There comes a point where it actually takes a tremendous amount of time and energy and as I'm sitting here doing paid work as well a lot of the time, I don't have hours to engage in a complex refutation of someone's argument.

So yes I can appear dogmatic at times, but I am actually open to be persuaded to another point of view if I see merit in it. That has happened a number of times recently, but only in respect of people who argue their views clearly and effectively (which isn't always the case).

And no I am not invariably serious - if you read my posts you will see that a lot of them are jokey or teasing. If I'm discussing a serious issue I will try not to be flippant for the sake of it.
So you take a very friendly, honest, helpful post by SensEye -- seemingly a perfect chance for you to find some common ground here -- and you proceed to once again mindlessly reiterate how we are misunderstanding you.

No matter what you will always appear as dogmatic, stiff, stubborn, and thus annoying. Your happy goofy posts are pretty ambiguous personality-wise, but once you actually really start talking, you encounter friction. The friction will not go away because your personality fundamentally grates on many of the people here. I know you can't change so my only suggestion if you want it to disappear is for you to disappear. And because I can already envision you taking this as some sort of demand to leave, I don't really care what you do. You annoy the hell out of me, but I am in no position whatsoever to tell you to do anything. If you do stay here, expect more drama, and more long threads with bickering back and forth about why you are disliked. The trend is pretty crystal clear and it would be stupid to assume it will magically change.

[songbird36]

I can't win this argument (whatever it is).

You're in the camp that doesn't like me. Fine, I can live with that. A lot of people today have suggested to me that I shouldn't respond to these attacks and perhaps they're right. From now on I won't, as I am in an absolutely no-win situation with you and certain others.

I find your posts odd coming from an Admin though. I guess the rules here aren't worth the paper they're written on.

[Avengardh]

First off, I don't know why everyone is so surprised at INTPs being emotional.
We have emotions too, as much as we don't like them and/or dealing with them.

Second, I am glad someone else finds this entertaining *smirk*.

Third, so, sometimes people take things personal, oh well, it happens.

Suck it up and move on.

Oh yeah, and before someone flames me with irrelevant info, I am not attacking anyone....just giving my opinion.

[Division56]

I find your posts odd coming from an Admin though. I guess the rules here aren't worth the paper they're written on.



What'cha talking about...?

The Admins Governmental are:

Vagabond
Shaytana
Divis56
Int

The Tech Admins are:

Heero
File C.


I read back two pages and didn't see you arguing with them...

[mgb]

I can't win this argument (whatever it is).

You're in the camp that doesn't like me. Fine, I can live with that. A lot of people today have suggested to me that I shouldn't respond to these attacks and perhaps they're right. From now on I won't, as I am in an absolutely no-win situation with you and certain others.

I find your posts odd coming from an Admin though. I guess the rules here aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I love the "a lot of people tactic" one of my favorites.

You are missing the entire point again. garak never said he didn't like you. He said that when you do a, b and c it drives him nuts. Not only did he say that, he offered proof of you doing a, b and c. Instead of saying, "Hey you know what garak, I do some of that stuff, I didn't realize it was annoying, I'll try and keep it in check," You go off on a rant about how he doesn't like you and what a victim you are.

The one thing I have noticed from thread to thread and post to post in criticisms of you is they are always fairly consistent. They tell you to stop acting like a victim and stop being so seemingly dogmatic. When people have told you to block someone you take it as an afront to your rights on the forum.

This is a perfect example of your dogmatism. Rather than turn garak's criticisms into something constructive, you lash out and attack as if you are some kind of cornered cat. You use ever weapon at your disposal, including pity.

Seriously, grow up. This thread and quite a few others so far have become your own private bitch fest on why you feel people don't like you. In my opinion, it is making INTP Central a complete shithole. Everyday I wonder who is going to "attack" you and start it all over again. I do everything I can not to reply to you. I know I'm not the only one either. Still, it keeps coming up. You need to learn to drop it.

[songbird36]

OK here's a suggestion for you, garak, Zedo etc.

Ignore me. Don't post venom about me, just ignore, and let me get on with continuing to post on serious topics that I interested in. This is a complete time waster for everyone.

[garak]

OK here's a suggestion for you, garak, Zedo etc.

Ignore me. Don't post venom about me, just ignore, and let me get on with continuing to post on serious topics that I interested in. This is a complete time waster for everyone.
It's impossible to ignore. If it weren't, this thread would not exist. As much as you interpreted my last post as some sort of nonsensical attack, it was advice. You run into problems here constantly and they obviously are not magically going to go away. Your personality is obviously not well suited for this forum.

edit: I'd love to see to see venom that I posted about you. I have only commented on your behavior and even then I've tried to make sense of things and improve the situation, to no avail. Only just now have I become so frustrated that I gave up; however, even now I have not been posting "venom."

and I'm not an admin; I just have some involvement with the technical side of things.

[Star]

OK here's a suggestion for you, garak, Zedo etc.

Ignore me. Don't post venom about me, just ignore, and let me get on with continuing to post on serious topics that I interested in. This is a complete time waster for everyone.


Now that it's hard to ignore some of these very strong personalities, I sometimes feel compelled to comment on them when they annoy me. This usually only happens after I've read ten or more posts in a row by one of these in-your-face types of posters, and especially when they seem to be on a campaign to dominate the very nature of the forum (by starting a majority of the threads) or by adding their own personal spin (which seems strangley like a territorial pissing) to nearly every thread (people with 2k+ posts).

I tried ignoring you. It's impossible.

[mgb]

OK here's a suggestion for you, garak, Zedo etc.

Ignore me. Don't post venom about me, just ignore, and let me get on with continuing to post on serious topics that I interested in. This is a complete time waster for everyone.

I have you on ignore and I still see you bitching everywhere.

Maybe stop bitching every other day about how everyone attacks you. Maybe if a thread is about tits, don't turn it into a thread about how you are such a victim and no one is nice to you.

But then again, why should anyone expect anything more from you? You've ignored every single other piece of rational advice given from anyone with the forum's best interests in mind.

I haven't seen you take a single piece of constructive criticism yet, I don't know why I think you will start now.

Sorry for wasting everyone's time on this pathetic shit.

[songbird36]

Well get over it then.

There are enough people on here I can engage in sane and sensible personality-free debate with, to not be overly concerned about 5 or 6 who don't like me. And I don't even feel the need to criticise any of those 5 or 6 anyway.

I'm not leaving, sorry.

[Edmond Zedo]

OK here's a suggestion for you, garak, Zedo etc.

Ignore me. Don't post venom about me, just ignore, and let me get on with continuing to post on serious topics that I interested in. This is a complete time waster for everyone.
I just noticed your statement "I don't have hours to..." But you obviously do!

Here's the problem. We INTPs oft have tendency to correct others. When you're so Wrong all day and night, I, for one, consider it my duty to at least deny.

[mgb]

Well get over it then.

There are enough people on here I can engage in sane and sensible personality-free debate with, to not be overly concerned about 5 or 6 who don't like me. And I don't even feel the need to criticise any of those 5 or 6 anyway.

I'm not leaving, sorry.

I haven't seen a day go by in the past two weeks where you didn't complain about the "5 or 6" members who don't like you.

Every time someone posts something contrary to you it becomes a crusade to show how bad everyone treats you. How is that sensible?

[Edmond Zedo]

Who does like songbird? Oh, I mean, "Do any INTPs like songbird? Not including eccentricons of the Clara/Pierce variety?"

[garak]

Hahaha mbgradsh, you are my hero.

songbird, If you're set on not leaving, then like I said, expect more of the same. And so shall I.. unfortunately.

[songbird36]

It's not people posting contrary views to mine, it is people attacking me in a very direct and personal way, as you did, and Zedo has done repeatedly.

I have been labelled retarded, low IQ, nauseating, annoying..blah blah the list goes on.

I'm sorry but this is puerile. It's like a school playground (and a very unpleasant one at that).

And then there are *all the rest of the forum members* like Thermo, Tragula, Claverhouse, Booyalab, Waxwing etc, who do not feel the need to stick knives into other members at every opportunity. Now why is this?

[mgb]

And so shall I.. unfortunately.

Makes me want to cry, 'cause you can just see what's coming.

[Edmond Zedo]

Since you use her name: I don't think booyalab's that fond of you either. Honeypants, is that right?

[songbird36]

Alright let's talk a specific example here. On the thread about existence of God you and I had contrary positions. I got attacked by you and Mgbradsh.

Booyalab then entered the argument and posted views very similar to mine (God not being able to be proved logically, the experience of God being inductive etc etc), so why did you not see fit to attack her? Well let me see now....

[garak]

It's not people posting contrary views to mine, it is people attacking me in a very direct and personal way, as you did, and Zedo has done repeatedly.

I have been labelled retarded, low IQ, nauseating, annoying..blah blah the list goes on.

I'm sorry but this is puerile. It's like a school playground (and a very unpleasant one at that).
Hah. Your list of insults is a bit unfortunate, but not one of them has come from my mouth -- yet I get lumped in with whoever called you nauseating. That seems pretty unfair.

Wait, wait.

That IS unfair! *shakes a large stick in the shape the letter J*

Well I guess this is a school playground now. It's hard not to want to blow off some steam after banging my head on the wall so damn much.


And then there are *all the rest of the forum members* like Thermo, Tragula, Claverhouse, Booyalab, Waxwing etc, who do not feel the need to stick knives into other members at every opportunity. Now why is this?
My personal opinion is that most people would not report disliking you. But I do think that many of the people who are ok with you are that way simply out of lack of involvement. It's hard to have strong feelings about someone you barely know anything about. I suspect that after being involved with one of your drama threads, a person is much more likely to have problems with you. That was certainly the case with me.

[mgb]

It's not people posting contrary views to mine, it is people attacking me in a very direct and personal way, as you did, and Zedo has done repeatedly.

I have been labelled retarded, low IQ, nauseating, annoying..blah blah the list goes on.

I'm sorry but this is puerile. It's like a school playground (and a very unpleasant one at that).

And then there are *all the rest of the forum members* like Thermo, Tragula, Claverhouse, Booyalab, Waxwing etc, who do not feel the need to stick knives into other members at every opportunity. Now why is this?

Oh, so we should start naming names now? Should I go back and find the posts of all the people that told you to chill out when you started attacking Zedo on days he wasn't on the forum on threads he hadn't even seen?

You can sit there and point fingers all night songbird...but you do it too. So don't jump on the alter and proclaim yourself high and mighty.

You have an aggressive and unrepentant arguing style. When the argument is done you pack up everything in your bags and take it to the next thread, then you unpack it all there and the bitchfest starts again.

And everytime I've seen you get insulted it's because you asked for it. You straight out asked me to tell you why Zedo and I don't like you. You could live with the consequences of that or you can turn around and bitch to anyone that will listen about how hard done by you are and how everyone is against you.

I stand by what I said, you just don't get it. Saying anything to you is like watching a star get sucked into a black hole, you just know that once it's in there, things will never be the same for the star.

People have been banging their heads against their keyboards trying to get you to understand how you are making them feel. But you just don't care. You don't give a shit about anyone but yourself.

[songbird36]

This started with Zedo, back in about early February. That is where it *all* started.

Prior to then nobody had attacked me, nobody had criticised me personally at all, despite me having posted on this forum for some 3 months previously.

And once Zedo *did* start attacking (and he admits he does this), a few others just seemed to think they'd like to join the feeding frenzy.

Any critical things I have posted have simply been in response to his attacks (and I will admit to a few odd "barbs" against him here and there at times when he had attacked me in 3 or 4 different threads on the same day).

I don't find this terribly mature for a bunch of adults. I actually find it really disappointing for highly intelligent people.

[Edmond Zedo]

Alright let's talk a specific example here. On the thread about existence of God you and I had contrary positions. I got attacked by you and Mgbradsh.

Booyalab then entered the argument and posted views very similar to mine (God not being able to be proved logically, the experience of God being inductive etc etc), so why did you not see fit to attack her? Well let me see now....
For the record, I did (She started it!), briefly. Then we decided not to do get so vile over that shit with each other.

But this is barely related to everyone's disgust with you!

[mgb]

Alright let's talk a specific example here. On the thread about existence of God you and I had contrary positions. I got attacked by you and Mgbradsh.

Booyalab then entered the argument and posted views very similar to mine (God not being able to be proved logically, the experience of God being inductive etc etc), so why did you not see fit to attack her? Well let me see now....


The existance of God thread wasn't about the existence of God at all, but whether or not INTPs are likely to believe in God.

I think this was from your first post on the thread:


At the risk of "ruining my credibility" (in the wise words of EZ) I am a believer in God.

Seems like you were baiting Zedo from the get go, since he was talking to Eileen the whole time.

Oh, by all means keep playing the victim, I'll keep searching the threads.

[songbird36]

For the record, I did (She started it!), briefly. Then we decided not to do get so vile over that shit with each other.

But this is barely related to everyone's disgust with you!

Oh yes it is entirely relevant. You have stated on many an occasion that you dislike me because you disagree with all my views.

However you seem for some inscrutable reason to be able to disagree with others (notably your girlfriend, fairly often as far as I can tell) without launching a personal attack on them.

Now why is this? I am totally mystified.

[mgb]

Here's another one:


Science has not rendered religion useless - EZ is quite wrong about this (if indeed he is asserting it).

In fact, I don't see Zedo replying to you until almost 100 posts later.

[mgb]

Oh yes it is entirely relevant. You have stated on many an occasion that you dislike me because you disagree with all my views.

However you seem for some inscrutable reason to be able to disagree with others (notably your girlfriend, fairly often as far as I can tell) without launching a personal attack on them.

Now why is this? I am totally mystified.

I would say it's because you ask for it. Literally. You do everything you can in a debate to get under the other person's skin, then once attacked you spend the rest of the argument being a complete victim.

In fact, I imagine a stradegy like this takes years to develop. And I also bet that this isn't the first time you have used it.

I am guessing Zedo knew something was up at the time, but couldn't put his finger exactly on what you were doing. But it's pretty obvious and pretty annoying. And whatever words that everyone else here has called you.

[Edmond Zedo]

This started with Zedo, back in about early February. That is where it *all* started.

Prior to then nobody had attacked me, nobody had criticised me personally at all, despite me having posted on this forum for some 3 months previously.

And once Zedo *did* start attacking (and he admits he does this), a few others just seemed to think they'd like to join the feeding frenzy.

Any critical things I have posted have simply been in response to his attacks (and I will admit to a few odd "barbs" against him here and there at times when he had attacked me in 3 or 4 different threads on the same day).

I don't find this terribly mature for a bunch of adults. I actually find it really disappointing for highly intelligent people.
I'd like to see this D-Day post of mine. Was it one of my "You're Wrong" posts which you invariably take as a stab in the back? When I say that, it's because I think you're wrong, and I don't want people assuming you're right (I still don't like you though).

Your condescent is humorous.

[songbird36]

Well you can selectively post excerpts if you like Mgbradsh, but the fact is that all this started with Zedo's unilateral attacks on me back in early Feb (or it may have been late Jan I can't quite recall). Now that is a fact, there is no arguing about it, and Zedo admits it himself.

Everything else that is happening now, has flowed on from that (and I would say has been caused by it). Perhaps you weren't privy to his initial ravings against me. They may even be too old now to be traced.

But they are there, and he knows exactly what I am talking about.

[mgb]

You seem to use a pretty insulting tone here, I wonder why Zedo began to get upset.


I'm am getting extremely bored and frustrated trying to explain what I thought was a fairly obvious distinction (between things which are susceptible to proof by logical analysis, and things which rely for their proof on perception or experience). You seem either unwilling or unable to apprehend that distinction despite me having offered you examples of phenomena exist but which are not capable of logical analysis, such as love, lust, anger, peace, and suchlike. Who would deny that these are real? We have all experienced them.

[mgb]

Oh, and what about this one right below. You say something about blinkers, is that like calling someone close minded?


You seem to suffer from the same problem as pintpi - you apparently have blinkers on and are unable to open yourself up to the possibility that you might experience something (such as God) in a non-rational way, or using a non-rational part of yourself.

[songbird36]

And Zedo sure, dislike me. Hate me if you will. For whatever reason you like.

But why the *hell* post that sentiment all over the forum? Grow up!!

[mgb]

Well you can selectively post excerpts if you like Mgbradsh, but the fact is that all this started with Zedo's unilateral attacks on me back in early Feb (or it may have been late Jan I can't quite recall). Now that is a fact, there is no arguing about it, and Zedo admits it himself.

Everything else that is happening now, has flowed on from that (and I would say has been caused by it). Perhaps you weren't privy to his initial ravings against me. They may even be too old now to be traced.

But they are there, and he knows exactly what I am talking about.

Nothing is too old to be retraced. Why don't you pull it up? And show us where it is so we can put things in context. Actually, if anyone wants to read back on the INTPs being religious thread they can tell I am not really distorting the context at all. In fact, in doing so, your MO becomes pretty clear.

[mgb]

And Zedo sure, dislike me. Hate me if you will. For whatever reason you like.

But why the *hell* post that sentiment all over the forum? Grow up!!

Actually, you posted it all over the forum. That's the problem.

Here is where you started it, on a thread about Shai Gar's perfect woman:


This started with Zedo, back in about early February. That is where it *all* started.

Prior to then nobody had attacked me, nobody had criticised me personally at all, despite me having posted on this forum for some 3 months previously.

And once Zedo *did* start attacking (and he admits he does this), a few others just seemed to think they'd like to join the feeding frenzy.

Any critical things I have posted have simply been in response to his attacks (and I will admit to a few odd "barbs" against him here and there at times when he had attacked me in 3 or 4 different threads on the same day).

I don't find this terribly mature for a bunch of adults. I actually find it really disappointing for highly intelligent people.

And I challenge you to read through that thread and tell me where Zedo attacked you to provoke this post.

[songbird36]

[QUOTE=mgbradsh]I would say it's because you ask for it. Literally. You do everything you can in a debate to get under the other person's skin, then once attacked you spend the rest of the argument being a complete victim.

[QUOTE]

I think you got pissed off in the existence of God debate because you seemed to be out of your depth with the level of debate that was occurring. I found that I was having to explain concepts to you in four or five different ways and you still weren't comprehending. When Booyalab joined that debate she had the same problem with you.

I'm not sure whether you've studied philosophy or theology but it seems pretty obvious that you hadn't done any reading on the subject, weren't familiar with the historical arguments for and against God (ala St Thomas Aquinas, Bertrand Russell etc), and also weren't familiar with basic philosophical concepts such as logic and empiricism. So we kept going around in circles trying to define things that most other people in that debate understood.

Now I found that very frustrating. It meant that in the end I left the debate - not because I couldn't get people to accept my view, but because it was going around in painstakingly slow circles.

[songbird36]

Oh and I want to add to that very negative sounding post (and without wanting to be in the least patronising) that although I felt you were out of your depth in that particular debate, I have seen other debates where I have been impressed with your arguments.

One I can particularly think of is the rant against smokers "give up smoking you tard" where I found your arguments convincing and you posted evidence to support them.

[mgb]

I would say it's because you ask for it. Literally. You do everything you can in a debate to get under the other person's skin, then once attacked you spend the rest of the argument being a complete victim.



I think you got pissed off in the existence of God debate because you seemed to be out of your depth with the level of debate that was occurring. I found that I was having to explain concepts to you in four or five different ways and you still weren't comprehending. When Booyalab joined that debate she had the same problem with you.

I'm not sure whether you've studied philosophy or theology but it seems pretty obvious that you hadn't done any reading on the subject, weren't familiar with the historical arguments for and against God (ala St Thomas Aquinas, Bertrand Russell etc), and also weren't familiar with basic philosophical concepts such as logic and empiricism. So we kept going around in circles trying to define things that most other people in that debate understood.

Now I found that very frustrating. It meant that in the end I left the debate - not because I couldn't get people to accept my view, but because it was going around in painstakingly slow circles.

We aren't here to talk about the debate. We are here to discuss why you think you are a victim in all this.

The fact is you aren't a victim at all. You say incredibly hurtful things to people (as evidenced above) and then turn around once they reply in the same tone and cry bloody murder.

Which is really just attention seeking behavior.

edit: then to top everything off, and this is really the cherry, you go on the offensive about it every chance you get. Your tactic looks like defense, but it's not, it's all offense.

[Edmond Zedo]

Oh yes it is entirely relevant. You have stated on many an occasion that you dislike me because you disagree with all my views.

However you seem for some inscrutable reason to be able to disagree with others (notably your girlfriend, fairly often as far as I can tell) without launching a personal attack on them.

Now why is this? I am totally mystified.
Let me scrute and demistify! I like or respect a lot of people who I disagree with about some things. I just don't like or respect some other people. Some neurotic fucking gonzo people. "Not you! Not you!"

[Edmond Zedo]

And Zedo sure, dislike me. Hate me if you will. For whatever reason you like.

But why the *hell* post that sentiment all over the forum? Grow up!!
I'll give you a reason. Because I'm pretty sure you bitched to the Red Brigade about me, who threatened to ban me for saying "You're just not smart enough to understand" in the God/Logic argument. So *expletive* you.

[songbird36]

Let me scrute and demistify! I like or respect a lot of people who I disagree with about some things. I just don't like or respect some other people. Some neurotic fucking gonzo people. "Not you! Not you!"

Are you actually capable of having a sensible debate or discussion, or rationally addressing a question that has been posed to you? Or are you only capable of highly emotional rants?

For someone who professes their high intelligence, where is it? And where are your credentials to be claiming you're "right" all the time with nothing to back it up? No doubt you'll answer this with more insults, as that seems to be about all you are capable of.

But for all that, I don't *dislike* you, or anyone else on this site. What a splendid irony.

[Warrior413]

You're all stoopid and you smell like poo.

[Edmond Zedo]

Are you actually capable of having a sensible debate or discussion, or rationally addressing a question that has been posed to you? Or are you only capable of highly emotional rants?

For someone who professes their high intelligence, where is it? And where are your credentials to be claiming you're "right" all the time with nothing to back it up? No doubt you'll answer this with more insults, as that seems to be about all you are capable of.

But for all that, I don't *dislike* you, or anyone else on this site. What a splendid irony.
This post is so off-kilter I'm not going to respond, except with: You don't fucking know what "dislike" means.

[songbird36]

Yep, which is about the standard of your responses on other topics when I've disagreed with you and you've been unable to substantiate your views. It's about what I've come to expect from you.

I won't be responding any further either.

[mgb]

Are you actually capable of having a sensible debate or discussion, or rationally addressing a question that has been posed to you? Or are you only capable of highly emotional rants?

For someone who professes their high intelligence, where is it? And where are your credentials to be claiming you're "right" all the time with nothing to back it up? No doubt you'll answer this with more insults, as that seems to be about all you are capable of.

But for all that, I don't *dislike* you, or anyone else on this site. What a splendid irony.

You see, you insult people. You think because you aren't swearing it's not an insult, but you are very rude. Then you expect everyone else to treat you with the dignity you feel you deserve. It is insane.

[mgb]

Yep, which is about the standard of your responses on other topics when I've disagreed with you and you've been unable to substantiate your views. It's about what I've come to expect from you.

I won't be responding any further either.

Every single post for like your last 10 has been an insult. Why the fuck should anyone here reply to you with anything but contempt? You earn the contempt. I can show you post after post of how you bait people into arguments by degrading their intelligence but as soon as someone calls you stupid you become some sort of goddamned crusader for songbird rights.

And don't you fucking dare think that you can duck out of here after that post. Who the hell do you think you are? "It's about what I've come to expect from you." On behalf of Zedo...fuck you. Given the respect you've showed him thus far, in this thread and others, he should be ripping you a new asshole.

Fine runaway. I expect nothing less from you. You are pathetic.

[Edmond Zedo]

You use the phrase "can't be substantiated" in reference to arguments opposing purely superstitious beliefs? Is that not correct?

Yes or no will do.

[songbird36]

Can't answer it yes or no, so won't answer.

[garak]

Are you actually capable of having a sensible debate or discussion, or rationally addressing a question that has been posed to you? Or are you only capable of highly emotional rants?

For someone who professes their high intelligence, where is it? And where are your credentials to be claiming you're "right" all the time with nothing to back it up? No doubt you'll answer this with more insults, as that seems to be about all you are capable of.

But for all that, I don't *dislike* you, or anyone else on this site. What a splendid irony.
Probably a similar reason to why I have gone from explaining to arguing to being simply pissed off and annoyed: the former are completely ineffective. You are like a brick wall.

[Edmond Zedo]

Can't answer it yes or no, so won't answer.
The question logically can be answered by either yes or no. You either are or are not referencing those arguments.

By the way, if you say "Yes" you're a hypocrite. If you say "No" you're a liar. Which do you prefer?

[mgb]

The question logically can be answered by either yes or no. You either are or are not referencing those arguments.

Where's Thermo when you need him? He'll protect her.

[Edmond Zedo]

Where's Thermo when you need him? He'll protect her.
*lol*

[songbird36]

The question logically can be answered by either yes or no. You either are or are not referencing those arguments.

By the way, if you say "Yes" you're a hypocrite. If you say "No" you're a liar. Which do you prefer?

Interesting. Maybe you'd make an effective lawyer after all.

This is a well accepted cross-examination technique in court cases. You phrase something in a way which suits your own purposes (whether or not it is actually true), and then you demand a yes or no answer.

Unfortunately for you I'm not on the stand.

[Star]

I won't be responding any further either.

Is this perjury?

[songbird36]

I bet you're sitting back enjoying this Deepsky. You knew what would happen with this thread..

:lol:

[mgb]

Interesting. Maybe you'd make an effective lawyer after all.

This is a well accepted cross-examination technique in court cases. You phrase something in a way which suits your own purposes (whether or not it is actually true), and then you demand a yes or no answer.

Unfortunately for you I'm not on the stand.

Oh no you are on the stand though. You make some pretty bold statements about people on here and run away instead of backing them up. When shown evidence that is contrary to your "testimony" you completely ignore it.

You've started all of this. I have shown you the post where you thought it would be a good idea to bait Zedo by attacking him. Now you refuse to deal with the consequences instead baiting another group of people to feel sorry for you.

[songbird36]

I'm not going to answer a "yes/no" question that has been phrased in a misleading way. Why would I when I don't need to?

This is so boring..don't you find? Have you read either of the other threads I started in the past two days? They're infinitely more interesting than this.

[mgb]

I'm not going to answer a "yes/no" question that has been phrased in a misleading way. Why would I when I don't need to?

This is so boring..don't you find? Have you read either of the other threads I started in the past two days? They're infinitely more interesting than this.

Typical pathetic response.

[Geoff]

This may be singularly the most utterly pointless and worthless piece of crap thread I have seen posted on any godforsaken forum in the saddeningly stupid waste of time that is the internet.

[Architectonic]

This may be singularly the most utterly pointless and worthless piece of crap thread I have seen posted on any godforsaken forum in the saddeningly stupid waste of time that is the internet.

I guess you haven't read any of my posts yet.....

[Eileen]

This may be singularly the most utterly pointless and worthless piece of crap thread I have seen posted on any godforsaken forum in the saddeningly stupid waste of time that is the internet.


Yup. I concur 100%.

[MacGuffin]

[munches popcorn]

Wait! Is it over now?

[Geoff]

[munches popcorn]

Wait! Is it over now?

Stop drawing attention to yourself with your popcorn. :rant: :rant:

Dont you know that munching popcorn is provocative and baiting to INTPs? Munching popcorn could be seen as a direct attack on any popcorn people :whistle:

I remember that on 3.96 occasions over the last 2.75 months people have been offended by this. I'm going to tell my Mum on you.

-Geoff

[Vagabond]

[munches popcorn]

Wait! Is it over now? MacGuffin... 9w1. :P Now pass over that popcorn.

(Unless you prefer to feel offended that I typed you and we can fight a bit to bring this brilliant thread back to life... :D )

[MacGuffin]

[pulls out tin with three sections of: regular popcorn, cheese popcorn, and caramel popcorn]

I figure this should offend Geoff three times as much!

And now I'm prepared to see this thread thru 1000 posts.

[mgb]

This may be singularly the most utterly pointless and worthless piece of crap thread I have seen posted on any godforsaken forum in the saddeningly stupid waste of time that is the internet.

And that post is the cherry on top.

[Dman]

i have a similar complex.... perhaps some envy i'd say, coupled with the fact that i lack the motivation to do anything similar... lately i've been lurking alot, it's an escape from school and i've seemed to have taken a hiatus from girls/drugs/partying so what else am i supposed to do? while i used to find this forum as a positive escape i am seeing much more small talk, and people complaining about hurt feelings.... which is annoying..... it's a relationship in a downward spiral all over again, which is what i come here to escape.

That being said i really appreicate all the posters at times, but at other times some can be frustrating... when you click a topic hoping to learn something only learning that i should have downloaded an episode of the OC instead (example of an unhealthy addiction)

the reason i limit my posting is because i'm aware of my limited knowledge on many issues... other people don't seem to grasp this, even if they don't have anything informative to add to an issue they feel it's their god-given right to tell you what they think. i know things about history and poetry and music, so i add to those threads... i avoid replying to science threads because i know i'm ignorant on those subjects. i don't like forcing my misery and ignorance on others. i don't hold grudges but have tended to skip over posts by people i've designated as 'quantity over quality' posters. i don't like pointing fingers, but we all know those that have over a thousand posts... tend to ramble ? and these include many intps who sometimes blame non-intps for the degradation in quality *cough* amusing

Anyways thank-you deepsky for giving me this chance to rant, that's the longest post i've typed in a while and it felt rather good.


I wouldn’t let your lack of knowledge about a subject hold you back. You can learn quite a bit by taking a contrary POV against what someone claims, even if you don’t really know that much about what you’re talking about. You’ll eventually lose the argument, but I don’t think anyone’s keeping points on who wins or loses, and you probably learned something along the way. The next time the subject comes up, you WILL have more knowledge on the subject.

Better yet, try to rephrase what someone claims in order to get a better understanding. A lot of people here seem to enjoy sharing their knowledge and are usually more than willing to help you understand, particularly in the science threads. I’ve found you can learn a lot more by jumping in even when you don’t know something, rather than “lurking” and only putting in your two cents when you’re confident.

Or maybe you’re too afraid of being “put in your proper place”…

[booyalab]

Since you use her name: I don't think booyalab's that fond of you either. Honeypants, is that right?

"mommy! daddy! quit making me choose sides!"

Sweetieballs, not exactly. I also dont like her arguing style, but I like her at other times. I agreed with Geoff's assessment of this, and obviously if each side hasn't convinced the other they're right yet, it's not going to happen. I dont care WHO does the ignoring...as long as someone takes the initiative! Or else......everyone shut up about it.

BTW, I love the irony of this thread title combined with the shitty, immature, unintentionally amusing dispute contained within.

Kettle corn is yummy.

[CreativeChaos]

*CC quietly peeks up from her well padded foxhole to see if it is safe to come out now*


:rant: - See this guy? Isn't he adorable? :wub: All he needs is a hug. :hug:



Okay, this is a very profound statement. If you guys don't get it, I'll be happy to interpret. But *warning* it is VERY NF.

[booyalab]

*CC quietly peeks up from her well padded foxhole to see if it is safe to come out now*


:rant: - See this guy? Isn't he adorable? :wub: All he needs is a hug. :hug:



Okay, this is a very profound statement. If you guys don't get it, I'll be happy to interpret. But *warning* it is VERY NF.

I think I get it, but then again..zedo says I'm ENFP *rolls eyes*

[CreativeChaos]

I think I get it, but then again..zedo says I'm ENFP *rolls eyes*

Pffft... Zedo is just a very baby blue sinister clown with a huge hat on top.

[booyalab]

I guess what you're saying is we should organize a :hug: task force to put all of these whiny, ranting babies in a better mood.

[mgb]

Hee! Yeah. A big group hug might be a little much for this group. But all most people want is to be appreciated for the things they appreciate. You can catch more flies with honey. It wouldn't hurt to "rationally" put in a few postitive things here and there. I don't think that would go against the INTP type to try to see the positive as well as the negative. It would be emotionally rational to add some diplomacy to your disscussions.

We have an 70 plus INTP guy in one of the discussion groups I go to. We discuss philosophy, religion, science, you name it. It's quite like this forum, just in real life. He is the only INTP, and is the most popular. He has the "T" gruffness about him, but he is very diplomatic in how he handles himself. Thus, he can disagree, but do so in such a manner as to not "put other people off".

So, I know from real life that INTPs can be diplomatic. And that is watering my statement down quite a bit. Heh!

AND I'm not pointing my finger at anybody. Just making a general observation and statement.

Try pushing that 70 year olds buttons for a month. See how he treats you then.

[MacGuffin]

We have an 70 plus INTP guy in one of the discussion groups I go to. We discuss philosophy, religion, science, you name it. It's quite like this forum, just in real life. He is the only INTP, and is the most popular. He has the "T" gruffness about him, but he is very diplomatic in how he handles himself. Thus, he can disagree, but do so in such a manner as to not "put other people off".
Well, send him over here! We'll beat him down proper-like!

[booyalab]

I think both sides have a good handle on wrong, each in their own way......how is that for diplomacy?

1. I dont like arguments where the focus is clashing personalities, because there is no attainable goal.
2. I think the combination of clarity for the sake of it (valued by Ts) and personal, emotional subject matter (F realm) can only produce bad results. Example of this "I hate you, you're wrong, so there", this has been exhibited by both sides...that's why there was no resolution in that argument
3. The only possible resolution is none. As soon as songbird leaves or stops discussing this, or everyone else who hates her stops addressing her, period..it will end.

[mgb]

3. The only possible resolution is none. As soon as songbird leaves or stops discussing this, or everyone else who hates her stops addressing her, period..it will end.

I can't say you are wrong about the other 2.

As for this one. The problem I have had is that songbird just won't stop discussing this. It's all over the forum. I don't like her, I don't care whether or not she likes me, I just care that I have her on ignore and the whole thing still keeps popping up on a daily basis. I'd like to get it over with once and for all her.

I don't like seeing what happened on a thread a month ago pop up all the time.

So until the issue stops becoming anissue I don't see an end.

[booyalab]

It's only an issue because everyone who's a part of it thinks it's an issue! The issue is entirely contained in the fact that you guys dont get along.....therefore if you eliminate interaction, THERE WILL BE NO ISSUE. I do think songbird should stop talking about it......but , on the other hand, she only talks because she knows she'll get people to respond.

[CreativeChaos]

Try pushing that 70 year olds buttons for a month. See how he treats you then.

I have no idea what would push his buttons, MG. You sound angry to me. I have no idea what went on in that "God" thread, since I didn't participate. And I don't have the time to really go back and forth with you. I'm at work, and I cannot stay on much longer.

Try not to see my statement as an accusation. This is what keeps happening. Try and look at it objectively. I was not thinking of you or anyone in particular when I wrote it. It was a broad statement of my experience here throughout this time.

My statment is simple: :rant: (this guy is cute) You are this guy, right now, and I really like you. :wub: I know you can be funny and light-hearted. I've seen it.

((((( :hug: MG :hug)))))

[CreativeChaos]

It's only an issue because everyone who's a part of it thinks it's an issue! The issue is entirely contained in the fact that you guys dont get along.....therefore if you eliminate interaction, THERE WILL BE NO ISSUE. I do think songbird should stop talking about it......but , on the other hand, she only talks because she knows she'll get people to respond.


:rant: - Songbird :wub:


((((((:hug: Songbird :hug: )))))

[mgb]

It's only an issue because everyone who's a part of it thinks it's an issue! The issue is entirely contained in the fact that you guys dont get along.....therefore if you eliminate interaction, THERE WILL BE NO ISSUE. I do think songbird should stop talking about it......but , on the other hand, she only talks because she knows she'll get people to respond.

True, but it gets people to respond who are outside of the "Circle of Hate" (sorry Meet the Parents was on last night) which leads to an escalation of the issue.

I'd be happy if it just stopped. That would be great. Make it stop.

But after trying to ignore it, and I have, I get a little sick of the veiled personal attacks. Since they haven't stopped I've decided that ignoring it just won't work. So now I've decided to tackle the problem head on, in the manner in which songbird is most comfortable dealing with it, out in the open.

[CreativeChaos]

Well, send him over here! We'll beat him down proper-like!

Haa! Yeah! This guy has it too easy with all of us non-INTPs around. Hee! :D

[booyalab]

we all know that when songbird returns she'll want to have more of the last word...so let's make a pact and not respond to anything she says that has to do with this stupid argument!
ok?
OK!
(edit: this applies to zedo too) *scowl*

[Claverhouse]

Could the hugging smilie be totally eradicated from the available smilie list ?

heero ?

FC ?

Anybody ?


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[CreativeChaos]

I think both sides have a good handle on wrong, each in their own way......how is that for diplomacy?

1. I dont like arguments where the focus is clashing personalities, because there is no attainable goal.
2. I think the combination of clarity for the sake of it (valued by Ts) and personal, emotional subject matter (F realm) can only produce bad results. Example of this "I hate you, you're wrong, so there", this has been exhibited by both sides...that's why there was no resolution in that argument
3. The only possible resolution is none. As soon as songbird leaves or stops discussing this, or everyone else who hates her stops addressing her, period..it will end.

Geeze! I'm deleting my post. :shock: Good grief! Is everything to be taken as an insult?

And agreed, Boo. But obviously you guys have emotions, and egos like the rest of the human race. Now I'm leaving. Acckkkk! :blink: I didn't mean to start it all up again.

*CC goes back to her well padded foxhole and hides again.* :ph34r:

[mgb]

I have no idea what would push his buttons, MG. You sound angry to me. I have no idea what went on in that "God" thread, since I didn't participate. And I don't have the time to really go back and forth with you. I'm at work, and I cannot stay on much longer.

Try not to see my statement as an accusation. This is what keeps happening. Try and look at it objectively. I was not thinking of you or anyone in particular when I wrote it. It was a broad statement of my experience here throughout this time.

My statment is simple: :rant: (this guy is cute) You are this guy, right now, and I really like you. :wub: I know you can be funny and light-hearted. I've seen it.

((((( :hug: MG :hug)))))

I'm not angry just frustrated. I understood your point, that INTPs can be quite diplomatic. I guess my point was that despite that, diplomacy has broken down and sanctions didn't even work (me having her on ignore) and now things are coming to a head, which is probably the same thing that would happen with your 70 year old friend in the same situation.

Nothing really happened on the God thread, per se. I think Zedo and songbird got into it a bit. For songbird to say it was all Zedo is a flat out lie though, hence the posts I made above about what happened.

It wasn't until songbird started trolling the site looking for sympathy about Zedo "attacking" her that I really started to take issue. Then the thread about "obnoxious young boys" (not that anyone knows how old I am) really got my goat, especially since I hadn't said anything to her for quite some time because I had her on ignore. Nor did I think what Division did was right and I said as much on the thread.

Then the pity party for songbird started popping up everywhere. Making the site not so much fun.

So if you attacked the 70 year old (verbally of course) and kept doing it, over and over, is it right that he should feel like he doesn't want to go out with your group anymore? Or should he stay and fight back?

[booyalab]

Geeze! I'm deleting my post. :shock: Good grief! Is everything to be taken as an insult?

And agreed, Boo. But obviously you guys have emotions, and egos like the rest of the human race. Now I'm leaving. Acckkkk! :blink: I didn't mean to start it all up again.

*CC goes back to her well padded foxhole and hides again.* :ph34r:

CC, I was only being tongue in cheek with my first comment....lol..i wasnt insulted

I wasn't trying to perpetuate the negativity...i thought that post was relatively detached and analytical compared to most of posts of the actual fight.

[booyalab]

:wub:
:hug: :hug: :hug:

Could the hugging smilie be totally eradicated from the available smilie list ?

heero ?

FC ?

Anybody ?


Claverhouse :ph34r:

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:
:wub:

[mgb]

ok?
OK!
(edit: this applies to zedo too) *scowl*

I can just see the PM now: I can't stay mad at you. Look at that face.

Sorry booyalab, not this time. You might be right, but history says that it won't just end there.

My line is drawn in the sand. This thing gets dealt with and ends here.

[mgb]

CC, I was only being tongue in cheek with my first comment....lol..i wasnt insulted

I wasn't trying to perpetuate the negativity...i thought that post was relatively detached and analytical compared to most of posts of the actual fight.

I agree that it was intended that way.

It also made a great catalyst though.

[booyalab]

It also made a great catalyst though.

so did my hugging army, I bet. You cant win for losing!!!!

[CreativeChaos]

I'm not angry just frustrated. I understood your point, that INTPs can be quite diplomatic. I guess my point was that despite that, diplomacy has broken down and sanctions didn't even work (me having her on ignore) and now things are coming to a head, which is probably the same thing that would happen with your 70 year old friend in the same situation.

Nothing really happened on the God thread, per se. I think Zedo and songbird got into it a bit. For songbird to say it was all Zedo is a flat out lie though, hence the posts I made above about what happened.

It wasn't until songbird started trolling the site looking for sympathy about Zedo "attacking" her that I really started to take issue. Then the thread about "obnoxious young boys" (not that anyone knows how old I am) really got my goat, especially since I hadn't said anything to her for quite some time because I had her on ignore. Nor did I think what Division did was right and I said as much on the thread.

Then the pity party for songbird started popping up everywhere. Making the site not so much fun.

So if you attacked the 70 year old (verbally of course) and kept doing it, over and over, is it right that he should feel like he doesn't want to go out with your group anymore? Or should he stay and fight back?


I have no idea what he would do. And you must answer your own question. What will you do?

And I really, really have to go.

[mgb]

so did my hugging army, I bet. You cant win for losing!!!!

I can die trying though.

[CreativeChaos]

:wub:
:hug: :hug: :hug:


:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:
:wub:

Haa! I love it Boo! :D I read your other post too. Thanks for clarifying.


Many mucho hugs and kisses (on the cheek of course) *Huggy, Huggy, Smacky, Smacky, SMooooooooch!*

[mgb]

I have no idea what he would do. And you must answer your own question. What will you do?

And I really, really have to go.

I already said what I will do. Rather than just walk away and let the problem fester (which I tried and it did) I am seeing this through.

I am looking for songbird to stop posting things like this:



And actually I have nothing against you at all. Am I the only person on this site who is not capable of developing deep animosity to people because of their views or personality? Right now I feel that I am (and maybe I would include Geoff too).

Until it happens, I am going to take exception with it every single time.

[Dman]

* still patiently waiting for a clear example of "alogical" *

[mgb]

* still patiently waiting for a clear example of "alogical" *

Hey, don't look at me, I was on your side on that one.

[MacGuffin]

* still patiently waiting for a clear example of "alogical" *
Yet again - God.

[Edmond Zedo]

Yet again - God.

a- is synonymous with il-.

[Dman]

Yet again - God.

Clearly falls under logical or illogical (as does everything else)

[Eileen]

It would be so incredibly hot if there was a smiley whose head exploded.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

I'm far from an expert, but as far as I remember: illogical means something that contradicts logic and alogical refers to something that lies outside or cannot be explained by logic.

Since God cannot be logically proven or disproven, it would be considered alogical.

[melancholeric]

It would be so incredibly hot if there was a smiley whose head exploded.
Not a smiley, but close enough.
http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/exploding-head.gif

( From a movie, can't remember the name. Sorry. I know you would love to see that. )

[Dman]

I'm far from an expert, but as far as I remember, alogical refers to something that lies outside or cannot be explained by logic, and illogical means something that contradicts logic.

Yes. Looking for something that fits the description of "lies outside or cannot be explained by logic"

[Eileen]

I'm far from an expert, but as far as I remember, alogical refers to something that lies outside or cannot be explained by logic, and illogical means something that contradicts logic.

Yeah, we've been over that. They don't believe that anything falls into the alogical category.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

I'm very much used to classifying any argument regarding Gods existance as illlogical, since most of whats used as proof is indeed defined as such. But perhaps it's the notion of the argument of Gods existance which is defined as alogical.

[Claverhouse]

a- is synonymous with il-.
So to your puritanic rigour, an amoral girl ( a wanton who sees nothing the matter with bestowing her favours freely ) is the same as an immoral girl ( a prostitute by choice who sells crack cocaine to lil' kiddies ).



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Sir Isaac Lime]

logic is a model, so clearly there must be limitations to it's use, correct?

[Eileen]

I'm very much used to classifying any argument regarding Gods existance as illlogical, since most of whats used as proof is indeed defined as such. But perhaps it's the notion of the argument of Gods existance which is defined as alogical.

Yeah, that's what I say.
Still doesn't fly.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Yeah, that's what I say.
Still doesn't fly.

Hmm.

Can someone who disagrees answer me this: Are there limitations to logic?

[mgb]

Hmm.

Can someone who disagrees answer me this: Are there limitations to logic?

I'll answer for MacGuffin: The limits to logic fall into the realm of the alogic.

[Edmond Zedo]

So to your puritanic rigour, an amoral girl ( a wanton who sees nothing the matter with bestowing her favours freely ) is the same as an immoral girl ( a prostitute by choice who sells crack cocaine to lil' kiddies ).



Claverhouse :ph34r:
an amoral girl could sell crack to kids just as easily in this model.

[Edmond Zedo]

Not a smiley, but close enough.
http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/exploding-head.gif

( From a movie, can't remember the name. Sorry. I know you would love to see that. )
Is that from Scanners?

[melancholeric]

Is that from Scanners?
Now that you said it, yes. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

[Claverhouse]

an amoral girl could sell crack to kids just as easily in this model. No: because even if an amoral person has no recognition of morality, they do not knowingly engage in evil. Because they can see consequence.


The amoral person is unaware of morality, while the immoral person actively transgresses against it. Babies are amoral, while politicians are all too often immoral. Lyndie Englland was immoral: Pamela Anderson is amoral. There's a difference.


Amoral means "neither moral nor immoral"; it also means "not caring about moral judgements." Immoral means "morally wrong." Anyway, you are evading the technical implications of thinking 'a' and 'il' or 'im' are the same.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[mgb]

I love how this thread has turned into the toilet of unfinished/unresolved arguments.

You guys make me laugh.

[Edmond Zedo]

One without morals can readily engage in immoral acts, and be considered immoral by one with morals (Overlap).

[Dman]

I love how this thread has turned into the toilet of unfinished/unresolved arguments.

You guys make me laugh.

yeah - I brought it up facetiously, but - Lo and Behold! It Lives!

Ladies & Gentlemen, start your engines...

[MacGuffin]

If you all really want to have some fun here is a statement for ya:

Atheism is illogical.

BAM! Have fun and I'll see you all on the flip side (tomorrow).

[mgb]

If you all really want to have some fun here is a statement for ya:

Atheism is illogical.

BAM! Have fun and I'll see you all on the flip side (tomorrow).

That statement is illogical.

[Dman]

That statement is illogical.

I love this place.

[Dman]

Are there limitations to logic?

Conceptually - No.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Does logic refer to a non-specific set of systems? Aren't they still only models, therefore by nature always incomplete/inaccurate?

I'm new to this argument, so i'm not trying to prove any side, just curious.

[mgb]

Does logic refer to a non-specific set of systems? Aren't they still only models, therefore by nature always incomplete/inaccurate?

I'm new to this argument, so i'm not trying to prove any side, just curious.

Only if you pre-define the system as incomplete.

Which is usually the problem here because we always forget to define everything.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Only if you pre-define the system as incomplete.

I just can't conceive of any system that can be applied universally without exception

[Vagabond]

Attention whores. :p

[ApeTheDog]

"There is no system that can be applied universally without exception" is a paradox, isn't it? Because if it's true, then there must be an exception to it as well, i.e. a system that can be applied universally.

[Architectonic]

BTW, I love the irony of this thread title combined with the shitty, immature, unintentionally amusing dispute contained within.


Exactly.
:rofl:

[Architectonic]

"There is no system that can be applied universally without exception" is a paradox, isn't it? Because if it's true, then there must be an exception to it as well, i.e. a system that can be applied universally.

Yes.

The statement would only ever be true in a pragmatic sense anyway.

[ApeTheDog]

Hmm. I do believe logical can be applied flawlessly to the world, but only if you knew EVERYTHING. For example I think it would be possible to predict without flaw what will happen tomorrow at 3 o' clock in my living room, but only I used everything in the entire universe as a parameter in my equasion. (And no, I do not believe the human mind is fickle. I think it's just so complex that things we believe are caused by free will are merely so deeply hidden in our subconscious that we have no data about it and thus no choice but to describe it as free will - much in the same way people used to think that lightning came from the Gods, when in reality it was an effect they could study and even predict)

[booyalab]

Hmm. I do believe logical can be applied flawlessly to the world, but only if you knew EVERYTHING. For example I think it would be possible to predict without flaw what will happen tomorrow at 3 o' clock in my living room, but only I used everything in the entire universe as a parameter in my equasion. (And no, I do not believe the human mind is fickle. I think it's just so complex that things we believe are caused by free will are merely so deeply hidden in our subconscious that we have no data about it and thus no choice but to describe it as free will - much in the same way people used to think that lightning came from the Gods, when in reality it was an effect they could study and even predict)

In other words, you have to be God.

[ApeTheDog]

Pretty much, yeah.

[booyalab]

"There is no system that can be applied universally without exception" is a paradox, isn't it? Because if it's true, then there must be an exception to it as well, i.e. a system that can be applied universally.

Maybe I'm missing something...but why does that statement have to be a 'system'.
You can't interpret a system out of a bunch of exceptions. THAT'S the paradox.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

"There is no system that can be applied universally without exception" is a paradox, isn't it? Because if it's true, then there must be an exception to it as well, i.e. a system that can be applied universally.

Well, I didn't deny the possiblity, but simply stated that I cannot concieve of it. The possibility doesn't assume that it does or ever will exist.

And isn't a paradox itself an example of how logic doesn't always apply as it should?

[Dman]

And isn't a paradox itself an example of how logic doesn't always apply as it should?

How do you mean? I can see how it can confuse us simple humans, but not how logic cannot still apply...?

[Sir Isaac Lime]

How do you mean? I can see how it can confuse us simple humans, but not how logic cannot still apply...?

Hmm, I guess you're right there. Perhaps more of a limitation of language then logic itself.