Greyhound Fiasco

[mgb]

I read about this story first thing this morning...then it got talked about at work.

I'm kind of interested to hear what kind of reaction people have to reading about this story. After we talked about it, I thought one of the guys I work with was going to be sick or something, he seemed really rattled. My wife has been getting worked up about it all day too.

For me, it's really weird and as usual I want more information, but aside from the randomness-causing-paranoia, I'm more intrigued more than anything else.

Here's a link to the story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25949218/

I'll post some quotes from the story in here since they are kinda graphic:




WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A traveler aboard a Greyhound bus repeatedly stabbed and then decapitated his seat mate, pausing during the savage attack in central Canada to display the head to passengers who had fled in horror, witnesses said Thursday.

...

But passenger Gernet Caton said the victim, who appeared to be about 19, was sleeping with headphones on when his seat mate suddenly began stabbing him repeatedly.

....

"When he was attacking him, he was calm ... like he was at the beach," said Caton. "There was no rage or, or anything. He was just like a robot stabbing the guy."

....

Caton said he saw the suspect had the victim on the floor of the bus and "was cutting his head off and pretty much gutting him" with a large hunting knife.

....

As the three guarded the door with a crow bar and a hammer, the attacker went back to the body and calmly came to the front of the bus to show off the head.

[MacGuffin]

See, in the U.S., we just shoot someone.

[Works]

It's disturbing to read about it. My first reaction is to make a snarky comment in order to distance myself from the horror of it all. This is not something I was able to easily detach from.

[kble]

See, in the U.S., we just shoot someone.

Boring.

My reaction: well, this stuff happens, there are psychopaths out there and apparently they take the bus too.

[starla]

Maybe he just needed a healthy body to hook up to the head of his gay lover.

[outmywindow]

See, in the U.S., we just shoot someone.
Seriously.

Is it horrible that while I find the man's actions disgusting, etc., I don't see the incident as something to get particularly worked up over? From the passengers' descriptions, there was no way anyone could have guessed this guy was going to do what he did, which in a sense makes it a freak accident (though an intentional one, if that makes any sense). There's no way for complete strangers on a bus to predict this kind of behavior in someone who seems so normal, so why spend the mental or emotional energy getting hugely concerned?

In other words, it's disturbing on an individual level, but I don't see it as the downfall of society, or a reason to fear virtually everyone I come in contact with.

[foodeater]

Maybe he was a confused time traveler from the middle ages.

[Ferrus]

Somehow it reminds me of the jokes made around the time I was in 6th form about Ken Bigley and the fact that he 'gives good head'.

[mgb]

There's no way for complete strangers on a bus to predict this kind of behavior in someone who seems so normal, so why spend the mental or emotional energy getting hugely concerned?



It's on a much lower level, and maybe because it's closer to home, but I'm getting this weird September 11th vibe from people about it, like it's affecting them that sort of way, but maybe to a lesser extent.

I guess to partially answer your question...it's kinda what people do. I mean, we do get concerned about that stuff. Empathy wise, it's not hard to feel for the people on the bus, or even the victim. Sometimes it's harder to feel for the aggressor, especially in this situation since there's a chance he's got some serious physical/emotional issues, but I'm sure people will, he's probably got a future lawyer counting on it.

Why we do it? Maybe a fear we could be next? I don't know exactly.

[Madrigal]

These things never happen here, I wonder why. I mean, other things do, but people don't get creative.

The thing that surprised me most was that nobody did anything to stop him.

[outmywindow]

I guess to partially answer your question...it's kinda what people do. I mean, we do get concerned about that stuff. Empathy wise, it's not hard to feel for the people on the bus, or even the victim. Sometimes it's harder to feel for the aggressor, especially in this situation since there's a chance he's got some serious physical/emotional issues, but I'm sure people will, he's probably got a future lawyer counting on it.
I think I misunderstood when you said that people were getting "worked up" in the OP. Of course I sympathize with the victim and the passengers on that bus, and of course I'd be very shaken up if I was one of those passengers. What I thought you meant was that your coworkers (and by extension, the general public) were suddenly concerned that a knife-wielding maniac was lurking around every corner, ready to carve them like a Christmas ham. That type of irrational fear, especially since it seems like the perpetrator was acting alone, and acting on psychotic instinct, isn't something I find myself experiencing.

As for your connection to September 11th, maybe this bus incident is actually scarier on an individual level because the man had no apparent reason to do what he did. the people on the planes had mutually reinforced conviction on their side, which doesn't excuse their actions at all, but it does explain them to a certain extent. That said, again, I'm extrapolating this bus incident out beyond just the victim and the witnesses, and from that vantage point -- the larger one -- this kind of strange and disgusting behavior isn't something that's going to frighten me on a day-to-day level. If the bus guy starts getting a cult following, or it's determined that he himself is part of something larger, then I might start to worry.



The thing that surprised me most was that nobody did anything to stop him.
Really? That surprised you? It's a dude with a large hunting knife, zero sense of remorse, and an apparently strong arm (50 stabs? Geez). Also, it's been proven again and again that the more witnesses to someone in trouble, the fewer respondents.

That and, you know, the crippling fear of death by maniac.

[garak]

Too bad a vet(eran) or someone similarly trained to confront violence wasn't on the bus.

[Ivy]

I'm guessing the guy was dead after a few stabs. I don't think I would have gone up to the guy with the "Rambo knife" (as it was described in another article) to keep him from cutting up someone who was already dead.

That's a pretty horrific story. The people on the bus will be scarred for life. (Scarred for life, scarred for life! the people on the bus will be scarred for life, allllll oooooooooooooover tooooooooooown)

Yeah, Works, the urge to make an irreverent comment is strong in times like these. It's too uncomfortable to face it head-on.

[Oso Mocoso]

The thing that surprised me most was that nobody did anything to stop him.

I'm not surprised at all. Would you get involved? Seriously?

But if you're keen to do this, you go in first, Madrigal. I'll cover you! Oh wait, it happened in Canada ... I probably wouldn't have a gun. You grab his arm, I'll choke him. Actually, we'd probably just add to his body count. Let's run.

[Madrigal]

Really? That surprised you? It's a dude with a large hunting knife, zero sense of remorse, and an apparently strong arm (50 stabs? Geez). Also, it's been proven again and again that the more witnesses to someone in trouble, the fewer respondents.

That and, you know, the crippling fear of death by maniac.

Yeah, the bystander effect. I dunno though, I think the more middle class the people are, the less likely they are to do anything. For example, over here, someone is more likely to come to your defense if you're attacked on a train in a proletarian suburb than if you're on a subway train in the heart of the capital city.

[garak]

That's a pretty horrific story. The people on the bus will be scarred for life. (Scarred for life, scarred for life! the people on the bus will be scarred for life, allllll oooooooooooooover tooooooooooown)
Exhibit A in the argument against having kids.

[outmywindow]

Yeah, the bystander effect. I dunno though, I think the more middle class the people are, the less likely they are to do anything. For example, over here, someone is more likely to come to your defense if you're attacked on a train in a proletarian suburb than if you're on a subway train in the heart of the capital city.
You honestly think this attack and the (lack of) response has anything to do with political, social, and economic ideals? I mean, really???

I'm thinking it's more about a guy snapping in a big, big way and people being understandably scared shitless.

[starla]

See, in the U.S., we just shoot someone.

God Bless the second amendment. Seriously, how fucked up would it be if every murder in the US were this creepy? Could you imagine how many Nancy Graces there would be?

*shudders*

[Madrigal]

I'm guessing the guy was dead after a few stabs. I don't think I would have gone up to the guy with the "Rambo knife" (as it was described in another article) to keep him from cutting up someone who was already dead.
Could be, but you never really know with knife wounds. :/


I'm not surprised at all. Would you get involved? Seriously?
I'm a woman and therefore exempt from this stuff. :p


But if you're keen to do this, you go in first, Madrigal.

Uh huh. :D

[Oso Mocoso]

You honestly think this attack and the (lack of) response has anything to do with political, social, and economic ideals? I mean, really???

No, she said that with a totally straight face. That's why Madrigal is so funny.


I'm a woman and therefore exempt from this stuff.

Go back to your straw hut and prepare a meal for your superior male.

[Madrigal]

You honestly think this attack and the (lack of) response has anything to do with political, social, and economic ideals? I mean, really???

I'm thinking it's more about a guy snapping in a big, big way.
I think the murderer was psycho, I wasn't analyzing his class. Just observing the way the middle class and the working class react differently to a guy getting violent against a defenseless person... here.

[Noses]

God Bless the second amendment. Seriously, how fucked up would it be if every murder in the US were this creepy? Could you imagine how many Nancy Graces there would be?

*shudders*

Oh god no. How she keeps that show of hers, I have no idea.

[outmywindow]

No, she said that with a totally straight face. That's why Madrigal is so funny.
So funny it's not a joke anymore?

[mgb]

These things never happen here, I wonder why. I mean, other things do, but people don't get creative.

You just have unstable governments. :p



The thing that surprised me most was that nobody did anything to stop him.

It was during the night/early morning and most people were sleeping. The guy was probably dead after the first couple of stabs and I think shock just set in immediately for everyone (there had to be a lot of blood, not to mention the crazy guy with the knife). After they got everyone off the bus I think three people went back in, that's when they saw him decapitating the poor guy and realized there wasn't much they could do.

Honestly, getting everyone off the bus, locking the guy in and disabling it were probably the most heroic things that could have been done.



Oh wait, it happened in Canada ... I probably wouldn't have a gun.

Hey, if memory serves me correctly, we've got more guns per capita than you do!

[Oso Mocoso]

So funny it's not a joke anymore?

Sadly, yes.


You just have unstable governments. :p

And currencies.


Honestly, getting everyone off the bus, locking the guy in and disabling it were probably the most heroic things that could have been done.


I agree. And the guns per capita thing might be true. I've never seen a figure like that, but I think more Canadians probably live in rural places where a gun would be a logical thing for just about everyone to need for practical reasons ie: Red Green Show.

[Works]

It was during the night/early morning and most people were sleeping. The guy was probably dead after the first couple of stabs...



When my Dad wasn't getting high or flying reconn missions (working radar and sonar technically) during his tours in Vietnam, he would volunteer for medivac duty to kill the time. He told me that it was amazing the punishment a human body could take before expiring. People missing half their skull, half their body, guts spilled in their laps and collecting flies would still be alive by the time they got there. I mean, he knew the guys were effectively dead, but they were still breathing and conscious. Death doesn't always come as quickly as we would like to imagine. It's a messy desperate affair.

[mgb]

I think the murderer was psycho, I wasn't analyzing his class. Just observing the way the middle class and the working class react differently to a guy getting violent against a defenseless person... here.

I wouldn't call a bus ride from Edmonton to Winnipeg a middle class haven. I think a flight is about $300 and 2 hours instead of about half that price for 18 hours.

Just sayin'.

But I know what you mean.

[Madrigal]

No, she said that with a totally straight face. That's why Madrigal is so funny.



Go back to your straw hut and prepare a meal for your superior male.
Lol, fuck you. :)


So funny it's not a joke anymore?
Jesus you guys! Anyone I know here can back me up on that. :blink: My two sisters are here with me and I asked them. The convo lead to us discuss the class of the plane passengers on 9/11. They agree with me. Could it be a cultural thing?? It's just not considered masculine to watch someone do that and not do anything, and a guy here who isn't a wuss would feel he had to do something in a situation like that. Not to mention solidarity is probably a bigger deal here in general. I don't know. I think I asked myself the same question anyone would here.


It was during the night/early morning and most people were sleeping.
Well I could understand that.

[mgb]

When my Dad wasn't getting high or flying reconn missions (working radar and sonar technically) during his tours in Vietnam, he would volunteer for medivac duty to kill the time. He told me that it was amazing the punishment a human body could take before expiring. People missing half their skull, half their body, guts spilled in their laps and collecting flies would still be alive by the time they got there. I mean, he knew the guys were effectively dead, but they were still breathing and conscious. Death doesn't always come as quickly as we would like to imagine. It's a messy desperate affair.

The guy had a big knife, from accounts I've heard. The kid was asleep against a window (pretty exposed). The killer was going for the neck and chest. At very least he was mortally wounded in the first 20 seconds. I understand what you mean, but I really don't think this kid had a chance. But that opinion doesn't really matter at this point anyways, unfortunately.

[starla]

I know my ass would have been hightailing it off that bus. Sorry dead guy, but if it's going to be you or me, it's going to be you!

[mgb]

I know my ass would have been hightailing it off that bus. Sorry dead guy, but if it's going to be you or me, it's going to be you!

*mental note - if ever in bear attack and starla is racing ahead of me, trip her from behind*

[outmywindow]

Jesus you guys! Anyone I know here can back me up on that. :blink: My two sisters are here with me and I asked them. The convo lead to us discuss the class of the plane passengers on 9/11. They agree with me. Could it be a cultural thing?? It's just not considered masculine to watch someone do that and not do anything, and a guy here who isn't a wuss would feel he had to do something in a situation like that. Not to mention solidarity is probably a bigger deal here in general. I don't know. I think I asked myself the same question anyone would here.

In the moment like that, I truly question whether or not men are pondering their masculinity, especially during such a fast and sudden attack as occurred on the Canadian bus. I know, I know, Hollywood teaches that heroes always get the girl, but I don't exactly think the thought process really works like that, especially during the criminal act.

Perhaps it is cultural, I don't know. Any American/Canadian men care to answer? Would/should you really be considering your status as a desirable male in the middle of a terrifying, life threatening situation? Or would you just be wanting to live, disregarding potential social repercussions?

[Oso Mocoso]

Lol, fuck you. :)

AT LAST!!! AT FUCKING LAST!!!

Thank you. You have no idea how gratifying that was.

Damn, I pushed every cultural button I could think of. I made fun of your leaders, politics, military record, and this is what it took? Okay, everyone that's Madrigal's line in the sand. She won't tell you off unless you propose to let her get knifed to death by a crazed Canadian.

By the way, I probably wouldn't really do that.

[starla]

In the moment like that, I truly question whether or not men are pondering their masculinity, especially during such a fast and sudden attack as occurred on the Canadian bus. I know, I know, Hollywood teaches that heroes always get the girl, but I don't exactly think things really work like that, especially during the criminal act.

Perhaps it is cultural, I don't know. Any American/Canadian men care to answer? Would/should you really be considering your status as a desirable male in the middle of a terrifying, life threatening situation? Or would you just be wanting to live, disregarding potential social repercussions?

They say the best way to survive an emergency (like a plane crash or theater fire) is to be young, healthy, and male. So you can trample the people in front of you.

[Madrigal]

In the moment like that, I truly question whether or not men are pondering their masculinity, especially during such a fast and sudden attack as occurred on the Canadian bus. I know, I know, Hollywood teaches that heroes always get the girl, but I don't exactly think things really work like that, especially during the criminal act.

Perhaps it is cultural, I don't know. Any American/Canadian men care to answer? Would/should you really be considering your status as a desirable male in the middle of a terrifying, life threatening situation? Or would you just be wanting to live, disregarding potential social repercussions?
Two guys is all you need to stop someone from using a knife.

My sisters just brought up this case in Spain where a girl was attacked by a nazi on a bus and nobody did anything. One of the guys who offered testimony was Argentinean. The comment here was "I wonder how he didn't feel too ashamed to make a declaration... after he sat there not doing anything." Could be cultural. I don't know.

[Madrigal]

AT LAST!!! AT FUCKING LAST!!!

Thank you. You have no idea how gratifying that was.

Damn, I pushed every cultural button I could think of. I made fun of your leaders, politics, military record, and this is what it took? Okay, everyone that's Madrigal's line in the sand. She won't tell you off unless you propose to let her get knifed to death by a crazed Canadian.

By the way, I probably wouldn't really do that.

It was the superior male thing. :P

[outmywindow]

Two guys is all you need to stop someone from using a knife.
Like Communism, it's much easier said than done.

ZING!

[Works]

In the moment like that, I truly question whether or not men are pondering their masculinity, especially during such a fast and sudden attack as occurred on the Canadian bus. I know, I know, Hollywood teaches that heroes always get the girl, but I don't exactly think things really work like that, especially during the criminal act.

Perhaps it is cultural, I don't know. Any American/Canadian men care to answer? Would/should you really be considering your status as a desirable male in the middle of a terrifying, life threatening situation? Or would you just be wanting to live, disregarding potential social repercussions?


I brought up the idea of your crisis personality in a thread a while ago.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=29765

I've always been quick to action when something comes up. Though I can't say my first reaction would be to jump in and save the guy getting stabbed. That's my non-crisis personality talking though. Maybe I'd jump on the guy and snap his neck given the situation.

[Oso Mocoso]

It was the superior male thing. :P

Too close to home? :grin:

Actually ... maybe I should stop.

[outmywindow]

I've always been quick to action when something comes up. Though I can't say my first reaction would be to jump in and save the guy getting stabbed. That's my non-crisis personality talking though. Maybe I'd jump on the guy and snap his neck given the situation.
Yes, but if you did jump in, would you have done that because it reinforced your masculinity, or simply out of instinct or thinking it was the right thing to do?

[Madrigal]

Like Communism, it's much easier said than done.

ZING!
And like Communism, it makes perfect sense. :D



I've always been quick to action when something comes up. Though I can't say my first reaction would be to jump in and save the guy getting stabbed. That's my non-crisis personality talking though. Maybe I'd jump on the guy and snap his neck given the situation.

Well I'm glad you contemplate the possibility.

Imagine if INTPc were a bus and a psycho started stabbing someone. I wonder who'd jump... it's fun to think about. :thelook:

[Madrigal]

Too close to home? :grin:

Actually ... maybe I should stop.

Hey get your osito avatar back right this minute.

[Ivy]

And like Communism, it makes perfect sense. :D



Well I'm glad you contemplate the possibility.

Imagine if INTPc were a bus and a psycho started stabbing someone. I wonder who'd jump... it's fun to think about. :thelook:
We have an overabundance of psychos, so I'm hoping they'll just make a daisy chain and all stab each other.

[Works]

Yes, but if you did jump in, would you have done that because it reinforced your masculinity, or simply out of instinct or thinking it was the right thing to do?

Hmm, you're talking to the guy who has read the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. I'm not really all too worried about my masculine image being impugned upon.

The few times when my crisis personality has kicked in, it's always been impulse. I'm the only one who isn't screaming and I know I can fix the problem. So maybe it's a sense of duty. Or it could be SE and NE working overtime in tandem.

[rhinosaur]

WTF? He cut the man's head off! That's like batshit insane. On a 1-10 scale of creepy insane psycho killers he'd rank an OMGWTF. At least he wasn't too smart, otherwise it might have been a serial case.

[stopharian]

Yeah, the bystander effect. I dunno though, I think the more middle class the people are, the less likely they are to do anything. For example, over here, someone is more likely to come to your defense if you're attacked on a train in a proletarian suburb than if you're on a subway train in the heart of the capital city.

I dont know if you have ever been on a greyhound bus. They are the most proletarian of all proletarians. A greyhound makes the all the long distance buses in Central and South America seem quite bourgeois.

[starla]

Is anybody else here wondering what Greyhound is going to do with that bus? Will they just shampoo the upholstery and put it back into service?

[Madrigal]

We have an overabundance of psychos, so I'm hoping they'll just make a daisy chain and all stab each other.
lol


I dont know if you have ever been on a greyhound bus. They are the most proletarian of all proletarians. A greyhound makes the all the long distance buses in Central and South America seem quite bourgeois.

Then it's an anglosaxon male thing? Eh. Like I said, probably cultural. Someone would have to be 'macho' and do something.

[stopharian]

Then it's an anglosaxon male thing? Eh. Like I said, probably cultural. Someone would have to be 'macho' and do something.

I havent the first clue, Im a Celt. The Anglo Saxons have been persecuting my people for nearly a thousand years. It aint easy being a red man in a white man's world.

Still Im forced by honor to reply when an Argentine brings up the subject of masculinity.

Argentinians, the French of South America, are known world wide as grade A poncers. They shriek at the site of gnomes, cry out for the magic sponge at the first sign of contact in a football match, and they herd cattle dressed in woman's trousers. Rich or poor, the Argentine is a specimen of prissy effeminate affectation that is rarely observed outside of the warrens of a Turkish prison; So much so that in many traditional cultures the term "Argentine Woman" is considered redundant.

[PenguinHunter]

Heh, only Winnipeg. . . That's so bizarre and yet so fitting for my hometown. Although it seems he may have been from Brandon. Let's see the world blame this beheading on Islam.

[ghost]

Normally these kinds of things don't get to me, but this story just seemed so real.

I guess you usually don't get any details - someone was shot or stabbed. You can imagine it as if it's in a cartoon or action movie.

But with all the details in this story I can imagine the scene as if I was there. There's something about the helplessness of it all. It's a pretty fucked up way to die. One minute you're sleeping on a bus, the next you have a knife in you and you can't do a thing about it.

I get the same feeling listening to other news stories if I wake up with my clock radio in the morning. I guess my brain is more receptive at that time, and I can imagine it all as if I was really there. I heard a story about some guys dying on an oil rig the other morning, and I was pretty freaked out. I could smell the ocean and oil, metal twisting, heat from the fire.

But whatever. I don't really buy into the whole terrorism omg the world is ending deal. This was just a one time thing. I'm not going to stop going to sleep on buses or anything.

[INA]

The story makes me sick to my stomach.

[dubbeltop]

Greyhound Fiasco

Poor greyhound....sniff

[mgb]

The story makes me sick to my stomach.

That's totally what I was looking for.

How come?

[INA]

I have a very vivid and visual/tactile imagination, so it is as if I were simultaneously the victim being gutted like a fish and a witness seeing the guts and decapitated head.

[Pan]

In other words, it's disturbing on an individual level, but I don't see it as the downfall of society, or a reason to fear virtually everyone I come in contact with.


It's on a much lower level, and maybe because it's closer to home, but I'm getting this weird September 11th vibe from people about it, like it's affecting them that sort of way, but maybe to a lesser extent.

...
Why we do it? Maybe a fear we could be next? I don't know exactly.

These comments reminded me of John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar in which people he calls muckers (ie those who run amok) snap as a result of increased pressures of modern living and go on killing sprees. Their daily occurence is - you guessed it - one sign/result/cause of the breakdown of his near-future western civilization. The description of this event is eerily similar to Brunner's... which leads me to believe that this is not a completely isolated incident, historically. Obviously, it's hardly a daily occurence, but now I'm curious how often something like this does happen somewhere in the world - once a year? less? more? Obviously, I'm not going to start fearing for my life every time I step on a bus, but I'm just a little curious about what set this guy off and how many others are near the edge.


Too bad a vet(eran) or someone similarly trained to confront violence wasn't on the bus. Or a veterinarian - throw a towel over him!
Seriously. though. isn't this a bit of a blind assumption? Especially factoring in that there's an infantry training base near Brandon. For all we know psycho dude was a vet and half the people on the bus, including the victim, were serving military. In any case, I bet a bunch of them were hockey players.

The understated story in this is that they got everyone off the bus, trapped psycho inside despite his Shiningesque attempt to get through the door, disabled the vehicle (apparently from the outside, after psycho tried to drive off), and no-one but the original victim was even injured. Considering that this was a complete ambush, I'm frankly pretty impressed.

[SensEye]

Don't think you can blame anybody for not trying to intervene. It's pretty cramped on a bus, so once you get over the shock of finding yourself instantly transported to the set of a psycho movie, you are probably going to have to go mano-a-mano with a 200lb knife wielding maniac.

Sure someone else might help, and all might go well and you get hailed as a hero, or more likely, you get 6 inches of steel in your spleen.

I think I'd head for the exit myself.

[garak]

Seriously. though. isn't this a bit of a blind assumption? Especially factoring in that there's an infantry training base near Brandon. For all we know psycho dude was a vet and half the people on the bus, including the victim, were serving military.

Yeah, maybe. All I meant was that anyone who's been trained to fight is more likely to step up and confront an attacker. Not that they WILL, but that there's a better chance.

[bergenski]

That's all the more reason, I suppose, to live life to the fullest because you never know what will happen...that, and don't frequent areas where psychopaths might be found, like on Greyhound.

[eyebyte_atWork]

psychopath - an easy term to apply to this mother fucker... anyone care to speculate further on this guys pathology?

He's not a serial killer - this was done out in the open. From the article written there seems to be little or no evidence that the attacker knew the victim. So no revenge. Was the guy crazy? He showed no signs of not having lost normal function (except the killing of course). Was he bi-polar? Anyone care to guess?

These are the things I was thinking reading the article - along with the visuals of someone being gutted.

[Madrigal]

I havent the first clue, Im a Celt. The Anglo Saxons have been persecuting my people for nearly a thousand years. It aint easy being a red man in a white man's world.

Still Im forced by honor to reply when an Argentine brings up the subject of masculinity.

Argentinians, the French of South America, are known world wide as grade A poncers. They shriek at the site of gnomes, cry out for the magic sponge at the first sign of contact in a football match, and they herd cattle dressed in woman's trousers. Rich or poor, the Argentine is a specimen of prissy effeminate affectation that is rarely observed outside of the warrens of a Turkish prison; So much so that in many traditional cultures the term "Argentine Woman" is considered redundant.

Haha. You've never seen a gaucho before have you.

And here's an Argentinean man.

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/rio_che_mate.jpg

[JBHunt]

psychopath - an easy term to apply to this mother fucker... anyone care to speculate further on this guys pathology?

He's not a serial killer - this was done out in the open. From the article written there seems to be little or no evidence that the attacker knew the victim. So no revenge. Was the guy crazy? He showed no signs of not having lost normal function (except the killing of course). Was he bi-polar? Anyone care to guess?

These are the things I was thinking reading the article - along with the visuals of someone being gutted.

Some neurodevelopmental disorder secondary to fetal alcohol syndrome :ph34r:

[stopharian]

Haha. You've never seen a gaucho before have you.

And here's an Argentinean man.

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/rio_che_mate.jpg

Is that an Argentinian man or an opium addict pretending to drink mate from a bombilla.

do a google image search for gauch pants

here is a gaucho

http://www.argentour.com/gente/fotos/gaucho.jpg

[kuranes]

What the victim looked like:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/timmclean.jpg

[starla]

psychopath - an easy term to apply to this mother fucker... anyone care to speculate further on this guys pathology?

He's not a serial killer - this was done out in the open. From the article written there seems to be little or no evidence that the attacker knew the victim. So no revenge. Was the guy crazy? He showed no signs of not having lost normal function (except the killing of course). Was he bi-polar? Anyone care to guess?

These are the things I was thinking reading the article - along with the visuals of someone being gutted.

My guess: premeditated cry for help/attention. The guy got on a bus with a huge knife and waited until everyone fell asleep to go nuts. Then, he cut off the guy's head and showed it to everyone for dramatic effect. Seems like he was trying his hardest to shock people. Maybe some kind of domestic terrorist.

[bergenski]

What the victim looked like:

Boy, with a neck that big, it must have been a big knife...or the killer was just damn strong and/or determined...

[Archvile]

I wake up with my clock radio in the morning.
Bad idea...

[Madrigal]

Is that an Argentinian man or an opium addict pretending to drink mate from a bombilla.
It's Che drinking mate!


do a google image search for gauch pants

here is a gaucho
So??? You fished up that pose on purpose. Nothing effeminate about the clothes. :whyi:

[distraction tactics]

This is quite the story. I'm disgusted with the account, and I'm disgusted that I keep reading about it. But I can't stop looking at the news because like everyone else, I keep asking 'why'?

It took the RCMP some time to charge him, so I'm thinking they were looking for every angle possible on first degree murder, but alas, he's only charged with second.

[MacGuffin]

Boy, with a neck that big, it must have been a big knife...or the killer was just damn strong and/or determined...
The victim was 5'4" and weighed 130 lbs.

[SensEye]

Not much detail in the news but apparently the guy didn't speak at all during his first court appearance. Didn't answer any questions, didn't respond when asked if he wanted a lawyer, etc. etc.

Sounds like your basic case of nutbar with evil voices in his head picked yesterday to listen to them.

[bergenski]

The victim was 5'4" and weighed 130 lbs.
100 pounds of that must have been in his neck.

[eyebyte_atWork]

The victim was 5'4" and weighed 130 lbs.

An easy kill by any measure.

[bergenski]

I object to this being lebelled a fiasco. I much prefer "bloodletting".

[earwax]

Yeah, Works, the urge to make an irreverent comment is strong in times like these. It's too uncomfortable to face it head-on.
As opposed to head-off?

[mgb]

psychopath - an easy term to apply to this mother fucker... anyone care to speculate further on this guys pathology?

He's not a serial killer - this was done out in the open. From the article written there seems to be little or no evidence that the attacker knew the victim. So no revenge. Was the guy crazy? He showed no signs of not having lost normal function (except the killing of course). Was he bi-polar? Anyone care to guess?

These are the things I was thinking reading the article - along with the visuals of someone being gutted.

I think maybe it was more like a psychotic break. He might have schizophrenia, depression or an anxiety disorder, something like that. I'm sure a psych major could jump in with some ideas.

His behavior seems kind of odd for this to have been premeditated in the conventional sense of a crime.

[Helios]

Jesus I can't believe only two of us are outraged by cowardice of these people!


As the three guarded the door with a crow bar and a hammer, the attacker went back to the body and calmly came to the front of the bus to show off the head, Caton said.


I am freaked out by this story. But, I have a low tolerance for violence (all my depravity is expended elsewhere :p ) When faced with such images in movies I like to remind myself shit like that never really happens. No dice with that here.


If I had a damn crow-bar I just don't think I could have watched him hack even the dead body apart. Maybe that is some Fe shadow talking*, but couldn't have just stood by idle.




*I am eldest son too, so I have a big ol' interventionist streak

[Corbin]

maybe the man just wanted the kid to turn the volume of his music down.


i mean, it isnt too much to ask for.



reading it i was also wondering why NO ONE did anything, i find it hard to imagine that there is only one maniac on the public bus

edit: yea, if i was standing outside with a crowbar, i would be very inclined to fuck a mother up

[distraction tactics]

I don't get why so many people are having trouble with the fact that 'no one did anything'. Even if there was a person with enough courage and presence of mind to act immediately as soon as the attack started, trying to work your way through a bus of people going nuts, and then trying to take on an person with a knife within the bus (hint: no mobility) while people are screaming and panicking.

Some of you watch too many goddamn movies and are shockingly devoid of a sense of reality. It's a wonder that a) everyone else managed to get out safely, and b) they had the presence of mind to try to lock him in and disable the bus.

[foodeater]

If it was a friend or family member I would definitely jump in (oldest son interventionist thing too).. but when it's a random teenager being stabbed repeatedly by a guy with no remorse or anger on his face I'd rather save my own life (unless I was at a large advantage over the other guy). The kid was dead pretty fast anyway, and it would be better to guard everyone else who was on the bus instead of risking your own life by charging in. They probably got the hammer and crowbar after they were already off the bus too.

[rainfall]

It's disturbing to read about it. My first reaction is to make a snarky comment in order to distance myself from the horror of it all. This is not something I was able to easily detach from.

<snarky comment incoming>

You ever get on a greyhound bus, have a cigarette, and then stab some stranger to death before cutting his head off? My first reaction was, hmm, what's the motivation here? Like, the whole cold-blooded look and dropping head to scare thing, that just seems like attention whoring. I mean, you're just asking to be caught by killing someone on a bus... in the middle of nowhere... With 30 witnesses... Doing something gruesome... Gathering a lot of attention from media... Does he sit in his cell and fap thinking about all the scared people?

The thing that surprised me most was that nobody did anything to stop him.
I wonder that too, but I guess it's not the thing that come across one's mind when they see some crazy dude in sunglasses stabbing a person in the neck, for the first time in their life. You just probably run like hell when that happens.

psychopath - an easy term to apply to this mother fucker... anyone care to speculate further on this guys pathology?

These are the things I was thinking reading the article - along with the visuals of someone being gutted.
He's 40 and works shitjobs? Mcdicks and delivering newspapers, was it? He's got a wife, too? Very quiet guy keeping it all in, until he can't take it anymore? I'm thinking "Falling down" kind of scenario here. Guy gets fed up and finds a way out.

[ketchup]

i'm completely disturbed. i will probably have nightmares tonight. seriously.

:ouch:

[rainfall]

i'm completely disturbed. i will probably have nightmares tonight. seriously.

:ouch:

HAHAHA! All the years of watching militant fundamentalist Muslims beheading Russian and American soldiers has finally payed off! I will sleep soundly and sweetly, as usual. :grin:

[mgb]

edit: yea, if i was standing outside with a crowbar, i would be very inclined to fuck a mother up

Until he dropped a human head in front of you. Then you'd probably wet your pants, like everyone else.

[Corbin]

Until he dropped a human head in front of you. Then you'd probably wet your pants, like everyone else.

possibly.

[Mercurial]

I think the murderer was psycho, I wasn't analyzing his class. Just observing the way the middle class and the working class react differently to a guy getting violent against a defenseless person... here.

It's becoming ingrained in people that they could face jail time for assaulting a criminal. <_< Companies already instantly fire employees who act against criminals. Felons have more rights than we do and the free legal service to back up those rights.

I don't see how people thrive on becoming lawyers without having depression completely destroy them.

[Ferrus]

Oh right because a legal system without free legal representation would work, yeah? Perfectly fair, eh?

[Psy-goat]

Jesus I can't believe only two of us are outraged by cowardice of these people!

I am freaked out by this story. But, I have a low tolerance for violence (all my depravity is expended elsewhere :p ) When faced with such images in movies I like to remind myself shit like that never really happens. No dice with that here.


According to this interview (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c2e_1217531771)the person in the row ahead, opposite side was formerly a 'combat' engineer with the CAF, presumably trained in hand to hand combat. Does it make him a coward that he didn't act? They say your body goes into shock 15 seconds after your arm is slashed in a knife fight, making you useless fairly quickly. Like DT says there is no mobility on a bus, the aisles are very narrow, it was probably more prudent to get everyone out of harms way. Gladwell in his Blink talks of the importance of having the knack of coup d'oeil in battlefield environments, maybe getting people off the bus was the best thing that he could do, and not uselessly acting the hero.



Live feed also has the recorded police radio session. The sicko was eating pieces of his victim while negotiating with the police. Bone appetite, eh?


A lot of people are mad that the police didn't just shoot the fucker. I guess when you get somebody into custody you can get some intelligence out of him and try to prevent other people like him from doing the same thing. Who knows, maybe he was an INTJ who posts weird motivational posters.



psychopath - an easy term to apply to this mother fucker... anyone care to speculate further on this guys pathology?


He suddenly realised he was doomed to a summer weekend in Winnipeg and went nuts

[MacGuffin]

I don't see how people thrive on becoming lawyers without having depression completely destroy them.

We drink.


Who knows, maybe he was an INTJ who posts weird motivational posters.

:happpy:

I mean

:nono:

[Pan]

Jesus I can't believe only two of us are outraged by cowardice of these people!
...

If I had a damn crow-bar I just don't think I could have watched him hack even the dead body apart.


There may be a little wiggle room between cowardice and vigilante killing with a crowbar.

Fictional narrative:

You wake up suddenly to a bloodcurdling scream and see a knife-wielding psycho still stabbing his victim
You help get everyone (including small children, let's not forget) safely off the bus
You find an improvised weapon
You enter the bus
You retreat when charged by knife-wielding psycho, holding him at bay at a convenient defensive point (the door)
You disable the vehicle to prevent psycho from driving elsewhere and continuing his spree (even though that would free you of him)
You stand guard until the police arrive and take him into custody
You get labeled a coward by people reading the media accounts because you didn't act out their vicarious anger

[Mercurial]

Oh right because a legal system without free legal representation would work, yeah? Perfectly fair, eh?

Sure. Free lawyers for everyone. Whee.

I'm guessing you were joking.

[Dom]

Genius and I have been discussing this and both of us feel that while it was probably exactly what we would do in the situation (get off the bus) that there is somehow something bad that no one tried to intervene.

I make no apologies for being an NF but the thought of being mercilessly stabbed to death and decapitated, while everyone else stood outside and watched/filmed it on their phones doing nothing to help me does make me feel like there is something wrong with us.

While I agree that it logically the soundest thing to do, to get off the bus and preserve yourself and others there, that no one did anything at all indicates something is wrong. I'm not appalled by it, but i am shocked and frankly feel like being in a crowd is certainly not the protection people thought it was.

Genius said to me that she used to get on the busy carridges, on the subway, thinking she was safer and that help would be there if she were attacked, she continued to say that she was obviously mistaken to think that.

I would not call acting on the urge of self preservation cowardice, it isn't, it is certainly the most logical and sensible thing to do, assuming self preservation is the only important thing to you.

So this isn't an attack on anyone who think they'd do exactly what the others did, and it isn't an attack on those on the bus. Frankly, though I'd like to think I'd do differently, I'm most likely to get off the bus too and certainly I would if I had a loved one or dependent with me.

And finally to frustrate the NTs here, it just simply doesn't sit right, that a man armed only with a hand to hand weapon, in an enclosed environment (this would hinder both parties in a scuffle) was not challenged as he attacked, murdered and disected a person in everyones full view. I cant promise or even guess that I'd do differently but i don't like that as much as I don't like that no one did.

[Ferrus]

Sure. Free lawyers for everyone. Whee.

I'm guessing you were joking.
In criminal cases the state will always have a lawyer, and it is manifestly unjust for the otherside not to have one either, in terms of serving the interests of justice both must be represented by experts of the law.

Civil cases are different matters, naturally.

[Ivy]

All of this armchair quarterbacking amuses me.

[Pan]

Genius and I have been discussing this and both of us feel that while it was probably exactly what we would do in the situation (get off the bus) that there is somehow something bad that no one tried to intervene.

I make no apologies for being an NF but the thought of being mercilessly stabbed to death and decapitated, while everyone else stood outside and watched/filmed it on their phones doing nothing to help me does make me feel like there is something wrong with us.

While I agree that it logically the soundest thing to do, to get off the bus and preserve yourself and others there, that no one did anything at all indicates something is wrong. I'm not appalled by it, but i am shocked and frankly feel like being in a crowd is certainly not the protection people thought it was.

Genius said to me that she used to get on the busy carridges, on the subway, thinking she was safer and that help would be there if she were attacked, she continued to say that she was obviously mistaken to think that.

I would not call acting on the urge of self preservation cowardice, it isn't, it is certainly the most logical and sensible thing to do, assuming self preservation is the only important thing to you.

So this isn't an attack on anyone who think they'd do exactly what the others did, and it isn't an attack on those on the bus. Frankly, though I'd like to think I'd do differently, I'm most likely to get off the bus too and certainly I would if I had a loved one or dependent with me.

Are you quite sure you're not projecting a little? Do you seriously get the impression that everyone was dispassionately watching the beheading through the (tinted) windows? That no-one even tried to do anything?



And finally to frustrate the NTs here, it just simply doesn't sit right, that a man armed only with a hand to hand weapon, in an enclosed environment (this would hinder both parties in a scuffle) was not challenged as he attacked, murdered and disected a person in everyones full view. I cant promise or even guess that I'd do differently but i don't like that as much as I don't like that no one did.
I would think that a close environment is a distinct advantage for the lone guy with the knife - ie there's no way to get behind him, no real way for two people to come at him at once. And people couldn't very well challenge him as he attacked, really, could they?

Where we really differ, though, is that I would like to think that I would behave as well as, say, the driver of that bus. It seriously disturbs me that there seems to be more anger directed at the other passengers than at psycho knife guy. It's not their fault. Maybe next we can find a way to blame the victim.

[lnb203]

I think anyone who watches the witness video (posted above somewhere) will realise it doesn't sound like there was much more anyone could have done. It seems that by the time anyone knew what was going on, the poor sleeping victim had been stabbed in the neck 4 or 5 times.

All these people proclaiming outrage that nobody did anything are living in fantasy world. Despite what Hollywood tells us, the instinct to survive far outweighs any loyalty we have to a stranger on the bus, particularly when the guy didn't seem to have a chance of survival anyway. I'm sure the survivors will feel endless guilt that they didn't do more, which is in itself tragic as they did what 99.9&#37; of other people would have done.

[mgb]

Where we really differ, though, is that I would like to think that I would behave as well as, say, the driver of that bus. It seriously disturbs me that there seems to be more anger directed at the other passengers than at psycho knife guy. It's not their fault. Maybe next we can find a way to blame the victim.

That is really interesting.

I wonder if it's sympathy for the victim or something driving that? I mean, it's like the guy with the knife is a non-entity and the only actual "people" who have a choice in how to handle things are the other passengers.

[Ada_Lovelace]

This is incredibly disturbing - for the reasons Pan stated.

However, for those of us who are tempted to compare the actions of the passengers on this bus to the actions of passengers of Flight 93 on 9/11 - the most striking difference between the two situations is the fact 1) the passengers of Flight 93 had time to analyze and assess the situation and 2) upon doing so, the fact they were doomed no matter what they did in the situation, had to be rather obvious to Flight 93 passengers

The greyhound passengers had the opportunity to self-preserve - they took it

Seen in that light, I don't think the reactions of the two groups of passengers can be rightfully compared side-by-side. The two groups were in vastly different situations.

Aside about Flight 93 (link)...
Recent slip of the tongue by Donald Rumsfeld - "Flight 93 was shot down by the military" - at first glance the source seems reputable, and the the idea Flight 93 was actually shot down does not seem to me to be out of the question - but I haven't really dug into it (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42112)

[Corbin]

Aside about Flight 93 (link)...
Recent slip of the tongue by Donald Rumsfeld - "Flight 93 was shot down by the military" - at first glance the source seems reputable, and the the idea Flight 93 was actually shot down does not seem to me to be out of the question - but I haven't really dug into it (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42112)

Don't you think someone would have noticed jet fighters? they aren't very quiet.

[lowtech redneck]

However, for those of us who are tempted to compare the actions of the passengers on this bus to the actions of passengers of Flight 93 on 9/11 - the most striking difference between the two situations is the fact 1) the passengers of Flight 93 had time to analyze and assess the situation and 2) upon doing so, the fact they were doomed no matter what they did in the situation, had to be rather obvious to Flight 93 passengers


Not necessarily, there was a pilot (albeit not one experienced with that type of plane) on board, so they had some desperate hope. Also, they had heard about the World Trade Center, so they knew they were dead if they didn't do anything. It was a choice between a desperate (and cathartic) hope and no hope at all.

[mgb]

Don't you think someone would have noticed jet fighters? they aren't very quiet.

Well, there were jet fighters scrambling all over the country at the time and guiding planes into land, so one shooting a plane down might not have been out of the question.

Also, most people were glued to the radios and TVs that day, so I can see how people might have missed that.

[Spartan26]

Don't you think someone would have noticed jet fighters? they aren't very quiet.I wonder about proximity of the fighter to the passenger plane. They could've shot a sidewinder missile from 10 miles away. I would think SOP would be to engage the plane's cockpit verbally first if nothing else but even if orders did come to shoot it down, I seriously doubt anyone would've seen it coming.

[Spartan26]

Has anyone else worried like, "Holy crap, that coulda been me!" And I'm not talking the victim. Every time you hear about any of these violent psychos they pretty much give the same description, "Quiet, kept to himself, a little weird, never smiled, sh#t job, never socialized, never knew what he was thinking, clothes somewhat disheveled..." Doesn't that describe like 90&#37; of the MF's here?! I mean at what point do I need to go in and get a genetic test to detect for Early Batsh#t Syndrome?

It's generally a surprise as to how far gone these people are. Like to people who were acquainted with the assailant. They might think something's a little off but can never imagine the person decapitating a random stranger or opening fire in a Vons Grocery Store. Is it just a case of people missing the signs, which could be fairly easy to miss, or is it a case of the assailants not realizing how close to Wackville their minds had set up shop?

I've thought about wanting to off some people but it's always been something they've done to provoke this, like reckless driving or being a stuptard at the ATM. Could there be some trigger in the back of my mind (or any of ours) that's waiting to go off? And maybe some people exhibit signs more than others???

On the one hand it appears the guy had enough of an inkling to ask for a little time off from work and then pack a knife, you'd wonder from someone w/out a violent past, if that person might've wanted to see a doctor or at least hint at not feeling well. Unless the diabolic nature didn't present itself all at once. Like maybe he had that little voice go off that goes off whenever someone travels, "maybe you should take your hunting knife...just in case." In stead of like swimming trunks when you're going skiing. You think what the heck for but you still do it. Then you find out there's a hot tub w/cocktail service in the lodge and think hell freckin' yes! Was there a point where the voice went off, "Get the knife! Get the knife! Get the knife!!!"

I'm sure whatever legal counsel he gets is gonna throw out ever excuse it can dream up but really it'd be nice to know what his dealio was. Serial killers, rampage shooters, even violent nutjobs living in the park, I can make some sense of but to just freak like that...sad and disturbing just don't begin to cover it.

[rawr]

It's a severely disgusting story. This is why things like the p3at exist...

[2hype]

Has anyone else worried like, "Holy crap, that coulda been me!" And I'm not talking the victim. Every time you hear about any of these violent psychos they pretty much give the same description, "Quiet, kept to himself, a little weird, never smiled, sh#t job, never socialized, never knew what he was thinking, clothes somewhat disheveled..." Doesn't that describe like 90% of the MF's here?! I mean at what point do I need to go in and get a genetic test to detect for Early Batsh#t Syndrome?


I know! I never have thoughts of offing anybody, but the descriptions of these whack jobs fit me to a T.

And it is a little disturbing how people close to the nutters are as shocked as anybody when it happens.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Maybe the victim was an asshole - any one think of that?

Maybe previously during the trip the young victim glared in disgust at the attacker - judging him - thinking what kind of loser would ride greyhound at his age. Maybe the victim had it coming.


Young punks. Probably had spiky hair, earrings, and wore a base ball cap side ways.

[Dom]

Are you quite sure you're not projecting a little? Do you seriously get the impression that everyone was dispassionately watching the beheading through the (tinted) windows? That no-one even tried to do anything?



I would think that a close environment is a distinct advantage for the lone guy with the knife - ie there's no way to get behind him, no real way for two people to come at him at once. And people couldn't very well challenge him as he attacked, really, could they?

Where we really differ, though, is that I would like to think that I would behave as well as, say, the driver of that bus. It seriously disturbs me that there seems to be more anger directed at the other passengers than at psycho knife guy. It's not their fault. Maybe next we can find a way to blame the victim.

I tried not to appear to be blaming anyone or attacking individuals behaviour. I simply do not like that little was done to attempt to help the victim. I don't even like that I don't like that! I agree that securing the other passangers, protecting them and preventing the attacker from leaving was exactly what the rational part of my mind says was sensible, good, helpful and right. But there is still something that just doesn't sit right and it has it's root in empathy with the victim and his family. To know no one tried to save your son and that many people were confirming that the other passangers were right to not to try to save him, that makes me feel like there is something wrong... I also think someone would have tried to intervene or been more likely too if the victim had been female but that is pure speculation.

Am I projecting? projecting what? I imagine most people were hyscirical and deeply upset.

I am certainly not blaming anyone other than the sick guy for the death of that young man, not the young man (and I've heard people speculate as to what did he say to them when they shared a cig break?) I do not blame the driver who frankly seemed to keep his head and do exactly right, and I do not blame the passangers, to want to seek safety is natural, normal and perfectly respectable. Like I said, I do not like my reaction it doesn't rest in rational thought, merely that someone should have done something! I even think that an attempt to save the victim would probably have been futile after stab wound 2 or 3 anyway...

sigh...

Yeah, way to go Dom you sound really articulate here...

[zero]

Maybe the victim was an asshole - any one think of that?

Maybe previously during the trip the young victim glared in disgust at the attacker - judging him - thinking what kind of loser would ride greyhound at his age. Maybe the victim had it coming.


Young punks. Probably had spiky hair, earrings, and wore a base ball cap side ways.

this is why i have trouble trusting anyone over 30....

[Ada_Lovelace]

:offtopic:


Don't you think someone would have noticed jet fighters? they aren't very quiet.

I just thought the Rumsfeld statement was... intriguing.

That is, if he actually said what he is said to have said...

I was hoping someone would take the bone and run with it, and then report back here... :devil:

Quite honestly, I have always felt it is highly likely the U.S. military actually did shoot down Flight 93. :shrug:

To presume otherwise is to assume a level of incompetence by the military in real-life situations which I don't think to be realistic; the U.S. military is one of the highest trained and most technically sophisticated armed forces in the history of the world.

The jets the military used on 9/11 could very likely have been stealth jets with sound dampening devices - I think it's naive to think the specs of all late-model aircraft used by our military have been released to the public arena.

[mgb]

:offtopic:


To presume otherwise is to assume a level of incompetence by the military in real-life situations which I don't think is realistic; the U.S. military is one of the highest trained and most technically sophisticated armed forces in the history of the world.


But could their pilots shoot down a plane they know to be full of American civilians?

[Dom]

But could their pilots shoot down a plane they know to be full of American civilians?

Drop bombs on other people's civilians easy enough...

(deliberately poking...)


:offtopic:



I just thought the Rumsfeld statement was... intriguing.

That is, if he actually said what he is said to have said...

I was hoping someone would take the bone and run with it, and then report back here... :devil:

Quite honestly, I have always felt it is highly likely the U.S. military actually did shoot down Flight 93. :shrug:

To presume otherwise is to assume a level of incompetence by the military in real-life situations which I don't think to be realistic; the U.S. military is one of the highest trained and most technically sophisticated armed forces in the history of the world.

The jets the military used on 9/11 could very likely have been stealth jets with sound dampening devices - I think it's naive to think the specs of all late-model aircraft used by our military have been released to the public arena.

LOL... Oh yes, highest trained? how can you tell or measure? as for level of incompetence, there is plenty in US Military History to talk about incompetence!! Like dropping entire divisions 3 miles off the coast to drown and like turning up in the one place they are not supposed to be in having totally defeated North Korea and thus enticed China to join in, like bombing my grandfather repeated (even after being told that the units they were bombing were British) and again in gulf war 1 and most British losses in gulf war two were due to "Friendly" American fire....

[Ada_Lovelace]

Still... :offtopic:



But could their pilots shoot down a plane they know to be full of American civilians?


Knowing the plane would very likely kill even more American civilians if they did not? With the evidence of the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon already before them. Yeah, I think they could do it. In fact, I don't even question it - I absolutely believe they could do it.


Dom - I know the U.S. military has made plenty of mistakes. The U.S. military has the 2nd largest military in the world (behind China) and in absolute dollar terms, the U.S. military budget is by far the highest of any country in the world.

Don't get me wrong - I am not a huge supporter of the U.S. military - not by any stretch of the imagination.

My point is... I wouldn't at all be surprised if, years from now, records will eventually be declassified which provide the American people with definitive evidence of flight 93 being shot down by the U.S. military over an open field in rural Pennsylvania on the fateful day of 9/11.

The 2004 South Asian Tsunami offers an example of the U.S. military getting it right:
"While many countries participated and the U.S. Defense Department has deliberately played down its central role in the humanitarian relief efforts, pointing first and foremost to the various host nations and their military and civilian relief efforts, the U.S. military's "unique capabilities and significant capacity" provided life-saving relief, and hope, to countless tens of thousands." [see complete article here] (http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itps/1104/ijpe/cossa.htm)

I'm not going to respond any further on this OT, since it was meant to simply be an aside of the OP.

Besides, I believe I've made my point in relation to the OP - and I have nothing more to add.

[Ada_Lovelace]

Maybe the victim was an asshole - any one think of that?

Maybe previously during the trip the young victim glared in disgust at the attacker - judging him - thinking what kind of loser would ride greyhound at his age. Maybe the victim had it coming.


Young punks. Probably had spiky hair, earrings, and wore a base ball cap side ways.

Wow Eyebyte! Is this your idea of some kind of sick humor, or are you being serious?

I cannot believe you'd even think to write this: "Maybe the victim had it coming" ???

Get real!!! NO ONE deserves to be stabbed to death, to have his corpse dismembered and [this additional tidbit was on CNN a couple of days ago] to have his flesh eaten by their killer !!!

NOTHING the young victim could have said, no look the young victim could have given his killer, could have, in any interpretation whatsoever, even slightly suggested, the victim "had it coming"

Is your post was suppose to be humor - - I just can't go there. Not at all funny, in my book.

[ghost]

I don't know.... Sometimes I think people who think it's fine to dress like an idiot, speak with some loud obnoxious voice to their pointless friends, while listening to their "music" at an excessive volume are quite annoying.

Maybe not decapitate-you-while-you're-sleeping annoying.... but they can be pretty infuriating.

Maybe this guy is a hero? Just think. Next time you get on a bus or plane and some loud, obnoxious idiot is annoying you, all you have to do is give him a quick glance and say "....you look tired.... why don't you get some sleep?" and the world will be in balance again.

Maybe he's made the ultimate sacrifice to save us all from annoying people with spiky hair?

[Dom]

I don't know.... Sometimes I think people who think it's fine to dress like an idiot, speak with some loud obnoxious voice to their pointless friends, while listening to their "music" at an excessive volume are quite annoying.

Maybe not decapitate-you-while-you're-sleeping annoying.... but they can be pretty infuriating.

Maybe this guy is a hero? Just think. Next time you get on a bus or plane and some loud, obnoxious idiot is annoying you, all you have to do is give him a quick glance and say "....you look tired.... why don't you get some sleep?" and the world will be in balance again.

Maybe he's made the ultimate sacrifice to save us all from annoying people with spiky hair?


He couldn't have been that noisey... He was asleep...

[!diom]

Never fall asleep on a bus.

[oxyjen]

I read about this story first thing this morning...then it got talked about at work.

I'm kind of interested to hear what kind of reaction people have to reading about this story. After we talked about it, I thought one of the guys I work with was going to be sick or something, he seemed really rattled. My wife has been getting worked up about it all day too.

For me, it's really weird and as usual I want more information, but aside from the randomness-causing-paranoia, I'm more intrigued more than anything else.


Coworkers and I were discussing this, and I was very creeped out about it. Its especially disturbing due to the level and gruesomeness of violence, the total lack of signs by by-standers that this were to happen, the innocence of the victim, and the lack of emotion shown by the attacker.

When reminded of the truth of how close we can be to death at any moment, and how fragile a social contract really is, people freak. People even have comforting psychological mechanisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon) to protect themselves from the reality of how unpredictably, uncontrollably frightening the world and its people really can be.

Myself, I try to piece together what mental illness the attacker may have, because I need to believe there is a reason, or something that will at least partially explain, what happened.

[Ada_Lovelace]

Myself, I try to piece together what mental illness the attacker may have, because I need to believe there is a reason, or something that will at least partially explain, what happened.

Agreed.

[mgb]

Coworkers and I were discussing this, and I was very creeped out about it. Its especially disturbing due to the level and gruesomeness of violence, the total lack of signs by by-standers that this were to happen, the innocence of the victim, and the lack of emotion shown by the attacker.

When reminded of the truth of how close we can be to death at any moment, and how fragile a social contract really is, people freak. People even have comforting psychological mechanisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon) to protect themselves from the reality of how unpredictably, uncontrollably frightening the world and its people really can be.

Myself, I try to piece together what mental illness the attacker may have, because I need to believe there is a reason, or something that will at least partially explain, what happened.

Here's a little more to add to it:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080805/bus_killing_080805/20080805?hub=TopStories

[Ivy]

I followed a few links on that site and was pleased to find out that the church where the killer worked as a custodian has decided to fully support his wife.

Evidently he was a Chinese immigrant and was working several jobs to support himself and his wife. He was on the bus to return home from working as a carnival ride operator. He seemed to everyone like a soft-spoken, hard-working man. It looks like he just snapped. It's a pretty wretched story all around.

[mgb]

I followed a few links on that site and was pleased to find out that the church where the killer worked as a custodian has decided to fully support his wife.

Evidently he was a Chinese immigrant and was working several jobs to support himself and his wife. He was on the bus to return home from working as a carnival ride operator. He seemed to everyone like a soft-spoken, hard-working man. It looks like he just snapped. It's a pretty wretched story all around.

I think the guy that got killed was the carny.

[Ivy]

Yep, you're correct. I misread.

[Corbin]

Maybe the victim was an asshole - any one think of that?

Maybe previously during the trip the young victim glared in disgust at the attacker - judging him - thinking what kind of loser would ride greyhound at his age. Maybe the victim had it coming.


Young punks. Probably had spiky hair, earrings, and wore a base ball cap side ways.


I agree, im going to go sit on my front porch in my underwear and shoot my shotgun at all the young punks who think its a good idea to skate through my streets with their billywankle womp tambler yellin' music!

[mgb]

Yep, you're correct. I misread.

I just didn't want anyone to have the impression that the attacker had unusually small hands. ;)

[PenguinHunter]

Maybe we could have a "Winnipeg is a Strange Place" thread. More fun (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081020.wsnakebite1020/BNStory/National) from my hometown when a man was bitten on the face by a gaboon viper - needless to say, not a native species.

An awesome quote from the Winnipeg Sun: "I don't even know if I've ever heard of a face bite. I just can't understand how that would happen."

Seriously. How do you get bitten on the face?

(In this case beheading was not an option).