S/N Differences

[Elro]

How would you explain the difference between N and S to someone?

Here's an analogy I thought up recently:

-Graphing Data-

S point of view: each data point is valid and should be taken into consideration, as it is possible that of 50 data points, only 1 or 2 will be truly accurate, in which case a best-fit line of the 50 would be skewed.

N point of view: only the trend is important (best-fit line), and certain points that diverge from the pattern are probably anomalies.

Is this one pretty accurate, or off the mark? Got any better analogies?

[Lee]

NT's are like relational databases with occasionally poor input, but excellent reporting software.

SJ's are like excel spreadsheets, poorly designed but with excellent input.

[melancholeric]

Me and my ENFP sister were explaining this to her Sensor husband once. She said "Sensors see the world as a photograph, iNtuitives see it as a painting" to which I added "a Salvador Dali painting".

Not the best possible explanation, but he didn't ask any more questions about it. Probably because he didn't have a clue about who Dali was.

[coffeezombie]

An INTP might see the world like Dali. An INFP might see it more like French Impressionism.

[songbird36]

S people require more "input" and process information more slowly and in a linear fashion.

N's are capable of taking intuitive "leaps" in conversation and in following each other doing this.

[Ka.avik]

S people require more "input" and process information more slowly and in a linear fashion.

N's are capable of taking intuitive "leaps" in conversation and in following each other doing this.
Not sure about the types of my other coworkers, but the ISTP is the
only one who has always followed my thinking. I've mentioned the thermodynimic order; only he got it without hints...

My impression of it was more like: Sensors are literal & realistic, iNtuitives are metaphorical & ...day-dreamy?... more likely to see where the principle could go...

[waxwing]

S --> like the single wooden picture frame containing a 5-7 photograph of your best friend in the world. You treasure that picture.

N --> the slide show depicting "friendship" containing background music, pertinent quotes, a series of photos (various angles), and a lot of backs of heads, half-faces, and red eyes. Wait, who were the best friends? Does it matter? It was about friendship.

[Lee]

Discussing the S/N difference is difficult without taking in to acount the J/P preference as this creates a shift in the nature of S/N.

SP's seem to percieve very differently to SJ's

[songbird36]

I find the S/N distinction to be the most profound difference in people for me, and I find it the most difficult gap to bridge IRL.

I actively avoid relationships with S types for this reason - the communication is very difficult.

[Elro]

Discussing the S/N difference is difficult without taking in to acount the J/P preference as this creates a shift in the nature of S/N.

SP's seem to percieve very differently to SJ's

How so?


I find the S/N distinction to be the most profound difference in people for me, and I find it the most difficult gap to bridge IRL.

I actively avoid relationships with S types for this reason - the communication is very difficult.
What about the communication makes it difficult?

:devil:

[songbird36]

Well - it is the fact that S types seem to require a conversation to be conducted in a very linear fashion, and in small incremental steps. They are incapable of making leaps of logic or intuition.

They also need to have things described in a lot more detail before they understand the point you are making.

[Elro]

They also need to have things described in a lot more detail before they understand the point you are making.
:D Touche.

[Lee]

How so?

All the letter influence the others.

[Ka.avik]

I find the S/N distinction to be the most profound [...] the communication is very difficult. Wasn't there a thread discussing the lack of difference b/w S-N's? S/N blindness I think it was called...didn't read too deep, as I can't type people at will...yet...

But, while I can see there could be a problem talking to literal minded folk about insubstantial concepts, I find the t/f split makes for a wider communication barrier. Or maybe something else entirely...I just recently had a breakdown consisting of four emails to an enfp to say 'yes' (re: road trip?).

I was speaking of requirements for work's sake, what I would need to accomplish to get in the car...she heard it as a vague, whiney no.

Mind you, you shouldn't ignore the communication barriers between P/J's. Ps believe in waiting their turn, since what the other speaker has to say might hold value. J's wouldn't listen if they did stop. :devil:

[songbird36]

Personally I find the I/E distinction the least obvious, followed by J/P, followed by T/F, and then N/S

[Ka.avik]

Personally I find the I/E distinction the least obvious{snip} While the E/I dichotomy can be the easiest to mis-guess, my recent musings have led me to believe they have the most profound effect on the rest of the 'letters'

My dad doesn't seem to fit into the mold, but he has a very ambigous e/i split. both states enegize and drain him, depending on circumstances.

Being one of 14 will likely do that to your e/i 'edness :-P

[songbird36]

I think it could depend on the relative strength of your MBTI preferences. My N preference is by far the strongest - I am only a borderline T, so I find communication with INFs and ENFs pretty easy.

[cjs55]

I don't like S's. SJs are fucking excruciating. SPs are ok in small doses but are shallow and overbearing.

SJs are the worst: I can't talk to them about absolutely anything, they think I'm a moron, I think they are morons, fuck em.

SPs are alot more fun to be around, but are overbearingly nice/physical/whatever (certainly ISTP males when drunk absolutely cause havoc)

I find the T/F distinction to be very important, but not in such a negative way. There is possible symbiosis there I think.

[Architectonic]

Well - it is the fact that S types seem to require a conversation to be conducted in a very linear fashion, and in small incremental steps. They are incapable of making leaps of logic or intuition.

They also need to have things described in a lot more detail before they understand the point you are making.

That itself isn't a barrier to communication.

The problem usually occurs when they get a bit tired of your long lecture explaining something and because you have made a number of vital points, by the time you get to the point (the whole reason why you started explaining in the first place), they already think you are finished and change the subject.

[mgb]

I just finished watching I (heart) Huckacbees and something jumped out that might be relavent here.

Someone said something about not thinking or feeling. That really jumped out at me, because it's not like Ss don't think or feel, they just do it much differently, almost incompatibly from intuitives. It doesn't seem like there is an ability to see how something would feel or think. Only an ability to see how something thought or felt, to them. I think that is the frustrating detail.

[Geoff]

I don't like S's. SJs are fucking excruciating. SPs are ok in small doses but are shallow and overbearing.

SJs are the worst: I can't talk to them about absolutely anything, they think I'm a moron, I think they are morons, fuck em.

SPs are alot more fun to be around, but are overbearingly nice/physical/whatever (certainly ISTP males when drunk absolutely cause havoc)

I find the T/F distinction to be very important, but not in such a negative way. There is possible symbiosis there I think.

Heh, have you considered lightening up a little? I know a few SJs and they dont *have* to come across as "fucking excruciating". Such terrible typism in evidence on this thread! The types are just a preference or tendency, there are plenty of people out there who are pleasant and agreeable company of *any* type.

-Geoff

[Geoff]

Well - it is the fact that S types seem to require a conversation to be conducted in a very linear fashion, and in small incremental steps. They are incapable of making leaps of logic or intuition.

They also need to have things described in a lot more detail before they understand the point you are making.

That is just *so* type biased. What you are accusing the S of here (typically) is near moronic intellect. It simply isnt true. S <> moron! Plenty of 'S' are able to grasp ideas and follow logic, it just isnt their preference. No wonder you dont get on with them.. much....

-Geoff

[Geoff]

S people require more "input" and process information more slowly and in a linear fashion.

N's are capable of taking intuitive "leaps" in conversation and in following each other doing this.

OK, so on what basis does an 'S' process information more slowly? Are they of lower intelligence? It seems like an insulting and surprisingly bold statement about a type that in fact prefers to process large amounts of information/detail

-Geoff

[Geoff]

Me and my ENFP sister were explaining this to her Sensor husband once. She said "Sensors see the world as a photograph, iNtuitives see it as a painting" to which I added "a Salvador Dali painting".

Not the best possible explanation, but he didn't ask any more questions about it. Probably because he didn't have a clue about who Dali was.

How about, Sensors the world as a photograph, iNtuitives as the photographer?

-Geoff

[melancholeric]

Wow, 4 posts in a row. One more and you would have hit CC's record. ( I think 5 is her record. Might be wrong though. )

As for all that Sensor defending, did you just discover that you had mistyped yourself and are actually an ISTJ? Or did you fall in love with an S?

It's not that Sensors are stupid. Just "intellectually challenged". jk.



How about, Sensors the world as a photograph, iNtuitives as the photographer?

You say it only because you happen to be a photographer. And quite good at that.

[Geoff]

Wow, 4 posts in a row. One more and you would have hit CC's record. ( I think 5 is her record. Might be wrong though. )

As for all that Sensor defending, did you just discover that you had mistyped yourself and are actually an ISTJ? Or did you fall in love with an S?

It's not that Sensors are stupid. Just "intellectually challenged". jk.



You say it only because you happen to be a photographer. And quite good at that.

Heh, well a couple of reasons.

Sensor defending because I am disappointed at people throwing away half of the population (in fact more than half) because they dont see the worth in them. It is typism at its worse. I'm not quite an ISTJ, heh. But I do love an S (and care for a number of others). I dont 'get' them in the same way I do the 'NP's (particularly) but I take offence at some people's attitudes, it is quite deplorable.

Actually my quote about being a photographer I think hits the nail on the head. (Which sounds a little immodest I know). The S's see the detail - the photograph.

The N's know how to turn that detail into a photograph.. something that as a whole has a message over and above that detail (following on from but greater than the sum of its parts). It is no coincidence than INTP lists photography as one its typical activities/careers.

An S would know how to record a crime scene with an accuracy we would fail at, but may find it difficult to create an image that is more than the sum of its parts. Which in my eye is the requirement of a photographer. The message, not the words.

-Geoff

[coffeezombie]

Sensors have their place in the world. That place is far away from my place.

[Lee]

Sensor defending because I am disappointed at people throwing away half of the population (in fact more than half) because they dont see the worth in them. It is typism at its worse. I'm not quite an ISTJ, heh. But I do love an S (and care for a number of others). I dont 'get' them in the same way I do the 'NP's (particularly) but I take offence at some people's attitudes, it is quite deplorable.


I think the typism should be taken with a pinch of salt, I don't think anyone here seriously thinks these things apply to every sensor, ISTJ, SJ etc.

N's can be just as, if not more moronic sometimes.

[coffeezombie]

I think the typism should be taken with a pinch of salt, I don't think anyone here seriously thinks these things apply to every sensor, ISTJ, SJ etc.

N's can be just as, if not more moronic sometimes.

Sensors can be great people, but that doesn't mean I feel like I identify with them much. It's like they live on a whole different planet than me. I'd rather try to deal with a moronic N than feel like I can't identify with an S whatsoever, although there are plenty of sensors I might rather be around than an ENTJ.

[cjs55]

Sensors have their place in the world. That place is far away from my place.

Ding ding ding! We have the winner!

I could care less what you think about my deplorable attitude. I've never met an S that I could stand for an extended period of time. This could very well be because I am unbalanced, and I have issues. But that doesn't change the fact that I usually dislike being around them, even when they are very intelligent. SJs are most often the cause/focus of my annoyance, SPs are not that bad sometimes. This is based on my experience, and has nothing to do with an overarching idealistic typism.

[melancholeric]

Sensor defending because I am disappointed at people throwing away half of the population (in fact more than half) because they dont see the worth in them. It is typism at its worse. I'm not quite an ISTJ, heh. But I do love an S (and care for a number of others). I dont 'get' them in the same way I do the 'NP's (particularly) but I take offence at some people's attitudes, it is quite deplorable.

Sure it's typism. This is a typebased board.

The moment I turn off my computer and walk out of my apartment I am surrounded by Sensors and overwhelmed by the frustration because I can't communicate with them at all. Then I come here, and I won't hesitate to vent about the SJ ( or SP ) idiocy.

It cuts both ways. S's are good at details, but for us details are a weakness. We've had quite a lot of discussion about our weaknesses and the difficulties we encounter.

And by the way, it's way more than a half. Keirsey said it's something like 85 %. That seems a bit too high though.

[coffeezombie]

And by the way, it's way more than a half. Keirsey said it's something like 85 %. That seems a bit too high though.

A bit high for Finland, maybe. That seems a bit low for the United States.

[Eileen]

I have a very dear ISFJ friend who I used to date (his picture is in the VI thread), and he is very intelligent and interesting. We were both surprised to find out at a retreat that we weren't both INFJ because we relate to each other so well.

Thinking back, I think that the difference between him and me is that I very naturally think in metaphor and understand abstract ideas and it doesn't seem to me to be anything special because I do it all the time. He is also capable of thinking metaphorically and abstractly and does so often, but when it happens, he almost seems surprised and delighted at it. He seems to have more childlike wonder at the process than I do, perhaps because it is not immediately natural to him. Incidentally, on the rare occasions when I am out in the world and noticing details and finding the beauty in them, I think I probably have a similar childlike wonder at it.


At the aforementioned retreat, the lady who was administering the tests and guiding our discussions explained N and S like this: When recalling a room, a Sensor will remember the drapes, the pictures on the wall, the fabric pattern on the couch, etc. An Intuitive will remember light and space. That explanation always rang true to me, and it was a good way for the ISFJ and me to start understanding how we perceive differently.


(Incidentally, I have VERY weak sensing abilities and am constantly frustrated by that, so I truly appreciate and am in awe of SJs for their ability to have their shit together, even if some of them can be difficult for me to communicate with.)

[Shadow]

Sure it's typism. This is a typebased board.

The moment I turn off my computer and walk out of my apartment I am surrounded by Sensors and overwhelmed by the frustration because I can't communicate with them at all. Then I come here, and I won't hesitate to vent about the SJ ( or SP ) idiocy.



Definately. I had a conversation with my mother (probably an ESTJ) about morality. In the end, her view boiled down to the following:


Legality is the same as morality. Breaking the law is morally wrong.
God says (or whatever divine verb applies) that one should blindly obey one's government.


(If anyone is wondering, the conversation was about under-age drinking.)

It is no wonder why we need to vent over such views.

[Elro]

S's see the world differently than N's by definition. But that does not translate to lack of intelligence. Personally, my family is made up of almost entirely SJs and SPs with a few Ns sprinkled about. So I have had quite a lot of exposure to the S views. While my family sometimes sees me as eccentric, they value my input anyway, and I value theirs. It's a different kind of perception, but both are appropriate in certain situations. THAT is the kind of thing I was trying to get at in my first post of this thread.

In my opinion, typism is not a good habit to get into. Just because you meet one ISFJ that drives you crazy doesn't mean that every ISFJ is exactly the same. There are variations within types. And just because you can't identify well with someone doesn't mean you should start trashing him or her.

And furthermore, one could go so far as to say that when you generalize the entire SJ type, you're doing to them exactly what it is that you claim they do to you - you're underestimating them.

It's particularly bad here, and it's exactly the kind of thing the MBTI was not aimed at starting. In fact, it was probably aimed at combating it.

I thought INTPs tried to be objective and unbiased...?

[Geoff]

What he said.

-Geoff

[Shadow]

I thought INTPs tried to be objective and unbiased...?


Of course INTP's are biased. INTP's are biased torward objectivity, silly! :lol:

I don't believe it is possible to be truely unbiased as far as typing as concerned. You can try to be as unbiased as possible, but in a way, being unbiased is biased torwards rationals.

[Vagabond]

Sure it's typism. This is a typebased board.

The moment I turn off my computer and walk out of my apartment I am surrounded by Sensors and overwhelmed by the frustration because I can't communicate with them at all. Then I come here, and I won't hesitate to vent about the SJ ( or SP ) idiocy.

It cuts both ways. S's are good at details, but for us details are a weakness. We've had quite a lot of discussion about our weaknesses and the difficulties we encounter.

And by the way, it's way more than a half. Keirsey said it's something like 85 %. That seems a bit too high though. I have them in my apartment, unfortunately (and I relate, no communication there). I wouldn't say sensors are necessarily good with details, but they are good with details you can touch, see and feel. INTJs can be good with details too, but they are more "out there", kind of like INTPs are. What frustrates me with sensors is that they live *only* in the present, seeing *only* what is visible and considering me "just lucky" when I turn out to be right about something behind the scenes I might comment on... they see the world through different eyes and I have given up hope on ever managing to communicate with them on a deeper level.

Btw, 85% seems right for where I am from. Sadly.

[spirilis]

I have them in my apartment, unfortunately (and I relate, no communication there). I wouldn't say sensors are necessarily good with details, but they are good with details you can touch, see and feel. INTJs can be good with details too, but they are more "out there", kind of like INTPs are. What frustrates me with sensors is that they live *only* in the present, seeing *only* what is visible and considering me "just lucky" when I turn out to be right about something behind the scenes I might comment on... they see the world through different eyes and I have given up hope on ever managing to communicate with them on a deeper level.

Btw, 85% seems right for where I am from. Sadly.
By infj.org's stats (MBTI '98 statistics)- http://www.infj.org/typestats.html

S-types make up 73.3%, N-types make up 26.7%. Sounds plausible--NF isn't as rare as NT, but they're both rare.

SJ- 46.4%
SP- 27.0%
NF- 16.4%
NT- 10.3%

[Vagabond]

Spirilis: I am pretty sure that survey had nothing to do with Greece. :P The MBTI (not even to mention the enneagram) is highly unpopular here. For instance, I definitely know more INFJs and possible INTJs than I know INTPs here... nice link though... makes you think.

[spirilis]

Spirilis: I am pretty sure that survey had nothing to do with Greece. :P The MBTI (not even to mention the enneagram) is highly unpopular here. For instance, I definitely know more INFJs and possible INTJs than I know INTPs here... nice link though... makes you think.
Yeah, it sure does. I wonder if anybody's done an international study? It'd be really interesting for those of us questioning how types are laid out, whether it's predominantly genetic or societal in influence...

[Serotonin]

My $0.02:

MBTI isn't necessarily about ability, it's about preference.
My ISFJ father is currently doing an MPhil. on classical (Latin & Greek) allusions in Virginia Woolf texts... you don't get much more N than that.
It isn't that he can't make intuitive leaps, more that he just prefers to immerse himself in the detail of the literature for enjoyment, rather than the overall message. Getting to the big picture is doable for him, it's just work rather than play.

Oh yes in Australia the sensors win in numbers. Hands down. :(

[Architectonic]

Those numbers are clearly biased, but yes it does make you think...

[Eileen]

Those numbers are clearly biased, but yes it does make you think...

I thought the same thing. However, I do know more INTPs than INFJs.

[Shai Gar]

imagine an island of NT's anyone want to guess how long before they all die?

[Vagabond]

They would discover the way to immortality and live (happily?) ever after.

[Trolsk]

At least they would be able to establish long-term plans and stick to them.

[Geoff]

imagine an island of NT's anyone want to guess how long before they all die?

That reminds me of an Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman joke. I'm allowed to tell it seeing as I am English.

2 Englishmen, 2 Scotsmen and 2 Irishmen are marooned on an island. They split up into their own groups and 1 year later they are rescued by a passing ship.

The Scotsmen have built their own whisky still and are roaring drunk, in hand knitted kilts.

The Irishmen are growing potatoes they found wild on the Island and fighting over who gets to cook the dinner.

The Englishmen? They are still waiting for someone to introduce themselves to each other.

-Geoff

[Hamro]

That reminds me of an Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman joke. I'm allowed to tell it seeing as I am English.

2 Englishmen, 2 Scotsmen and 2 Irishmen are marooned on an island. They split up into their own groups and 1 year later they are rescued by a passing ship.

The Scotsmen have built their own whisky still and are roaring drunk, in hand knitted kilts.

The Irishmen are growing potatoes they found wild on the Island and fighting over who gets to cook the dinner.

The Englishmen? They are still waiting for someone to introduce themselves to each other.

-Geoff

lol. that could be said about swedes too, were also quite shy.

anyway, my brother who i assumed was a INTP did MBTI test again and had ISTJ with 54% on T and J ,and 65% S, and 60% I. i find that we get along fine but there are obvious differences in how we take up and analyse things,

he can be narrowminded like hell about some cases, then suddenly hes open to any kind of ideas. depending on subject

[msg_v2]

Well - it is the fact that S types seem to require a conversation to be conducted in a very linear fashion, and in small incremental steps. They are incapable of making leaps of logic or intuition.


Do you mean like S types respond to you by saying things like "That was random", or "that came out of nowhere", or the ever-annoying "we talked about that 5 minutes ago?"

If so, I'd agree that people like that often irritate me. I can't understand how people hung up on putting things 'in their right place" that even their interactions with others have to follow a tight schedule.

[luminous beam]

communicationg from N to S and vice versa can be frustrating at times...but it all boils down to this: when explaining yourself to them get to the fucking point. Ns are good for going in circles and talking it up and S' could care less because for the most part, they will most likely not get your point of view. so what you do is you keep it short and sweet, be as upfront and as blunt as you want, they will most likely appreciate, value and grasp what it is that you're trying to say. the end.