Suicide

[teleforce]

Why is the poll made public?
so it's depressing.

[edge walker]

Why people die by suicide (http://books.google.com/books?id=C7uiA5EB5GAC)

[HoneyCyclical]

so it's depressing.

Yeah, but it can be depressing without showing what user voted for what.

[Nyura]

If I were to ever kick the bucket, I'd do it ridiculously. Like through water intoxication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication) or something.

Such bad memories. Military, they forced water all the time. My legs felt like tree trunks from the swelling and felt like my heart was going to give at any moment.

[dtachh]

yeah have come pretty close but pussied out

[HoneyCyclical]

I find the knowledge that I can off myself at any time comforting.

There's probably a (self) control issue here somewhere.

[krunchtime]

Thought about that only recently, when pressure at school got worst. Suicide remains a viable possibility for me at any stage in life, I retain the right to end terminate my own existence despite societal disapproval, although not at the expense of my loved ones. Maybe its got to be with the freedom thing. Nobody wants to die, but our existence collective or otherwise, has to serve some sort of purpose - which I'm too skeptical to find in religion.

[Grrr]

I actually expected the Contemplated seriously option to lead. Glad to be wrong about it.

[Ryverblue]

The thing that pisses me off about suicide is its generally messy and always selfish.No one metions the people who have to come and clean up after some one who offs themselves.We had a guy jump off a cliff here and my friends first day of being an emt consisted of repelling down on some ropes to get this splattered guy,and then there was this young college girl who was upset at her parents for getting a divorce she ran her car head first into a semi with her suicide note by her side.She obivously never stopped to think how her actions would affect the other driver..some poor guy just trying to make a living an support his family.

[YHWH]

.No one metions the people who have to come and clean up after some one who offs themselves

Because the world ceases to exist when one dies, nothing selfish about it, it's objective. Nothingness is hard to visualize when you're blinded by life's delusional magnitude.

[ChristopherL]

Attempted it when I was 9 or 10.

Picked two bottles of stuff out of the medicine cabinet and swallowed them all.

Slept for a day and a half and woke up feeling better.

[Lurker]

I've heard suicide is usually an act of anger--not sadness, or on the manic side of a bipolar swing.

/hearsay

In small part, I agree.

I view suicide as a valid option for some people. If someone is in excruciating pain, be it mental or physical, and there is little to no chance of this pain ending, I think killing oneself should be on the table. Society really has no right to dictate whether or not someone should be forced to live. They didn't ask to be born, it was a condition thrust upon them, and I think it only fair that they have the option to terminate their existence.

There are several problems (duh): most suicidal people have severely impaired judgment. They will often erroneously think that they are trapped and that their state of unbearable pain is permanent when it may not be so. Also, while one has the option to end one's life, I don't believe that holds true if you are bound to other people, which most of us are. The hurt inflicted to loved ones by committing suicide amounts to severely abusing them and altering the course of their life, particularly in the case of dependent children or a partner (and perhaps parents and siblings).

Are there cases where the pain will continue unabated, and there is really no one who will be that bothered much by the suicidal person's death? Sure. However, I do believe that these cases are rare, and that the typical suicidal person is in a poor position to make a rational decision.

[Eye-In-TiPi]

I thought about it when I was in my early twenties. I was pretty depressed at the time. At one point I even picked up a pistol. The smell of gun oil snapped me out of it for some reason. Maybe it made me realize the reality and finality of what I was thinking about doing. I decided that no matter how bad things sucked for me at the time, they might get better and I'd miss out on some good times if I was dead. I also thought about how it would affect my friends and family. Even if I had been successful and killed myself instantly by blasting my brains out, my suicide would not have been painless. I would have left everyone I'd ever cared about with pain. I couldn't do that to them, so I decided to suck it up and live on. I haven't regretted it. Things did get better.

A song on the subject:

Suicide Is Painless
by Johnny Mandel (music) and Mike Altman (lyrics)

Through early morning fog I see
visions of the things to be
the pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see...

[Refrain]:
That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

[Refrain]

The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
so this is all I have to say.

[Refrain]

The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger, watch it grin, but...

[Refrain]

A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
"is it to be or not to be"
and I replied "oh why ask me?"

'Cause suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you choose.

Hard to believe the words were written by a 14 year old.

Suicide Is Painless

I like the song, but disagree with what the title says. There is always pain.

[Jennywocky]

I view suicide as a valid option for some people. If someone is in excruciating pain, be it mental or physical, and there is little to no chance of this pain ending, I think killing oneself should be on the table. Society really has no right to dictate whether or not someone should be forced to live. They didn't ask to be born, it was a condition thrust upon them, and I think it only fair that they have the option to terminate their existence.

Yup.


There are several problems (duh): most suicidal people have severely impaired judgment. They will often erroneously think that they are trapped and that their state of unbearable pain is permanent when it may not be so. Also, while one has the option to end one's life, I don't believe that holds true if you are bound to other people, which most of us are. The hurt inflicted to loved ones by committing suicide amounts to severely abusing them and altering the course of their life, particularly in the case of dependent children or a partner (and perhaps parents and siblings).

Yup again.

it's a pretty complicated matter, and trying to reduce it to existential dependence or some other single facet doesn't really provide an accurate answer.

Funny... I just skimmed back to see if I had posted here before, and I had -- in December 2007:


In any cases, the times I have been on the edge of doing it, it's because it seemed like the SANE option and made sense. It seemed more fanciful to think that I had no power to change anything in my life and simply hope that it would somehow improve on its own.

Funny why? Because at the time I wrote this I was every night fighting the urge to kill myself. I made it sound more distant in my post because I didn't want people to know.

Along with potentially careless highway driving during the day, I had a huge bottle of sleeping pills that I would sit and contemplate in the dark until 1-2am, then somehow force myself to go to bed without washing them all down with a glass of hard liquor.

For me, my struggle was more the rational assessment, which just made it worse in some ways.

I felt like I was living someone else's life... but I also felt like I had no way out that would not both hurt people I loved AND bring down a host of abuse and rejection on my own head from family and friends. Coupled with that, you are basically fighting the reality of pain on a continual basis (which it would be nice to end), coupled with the mere possibility of joy later while laced with some pretty exquisite and certain suffering. The only outcome with any sunshine in it was not ensured in the least.

In a lot of ways, suicide seemed the most "certain" outcome for some degree of peace, rationally. I was assured (barring any religious afterlife that might be true) that I would no longer experience pain. That was a given. Everything else looked to be a crapshoot and assuredly involved even MORE pain. Suicide seemed rational at the time.

(In the end, I think it came down to two things that got me off my ass: My desire to not burden my children with a dead parent, and my desire, on some level, to somehow live. But rationally it could have gone the other way.)

In the end, I do agree that the indecision is hell -- if you're going to live, live; if you're going to die, die, living in indecision means certain hell. I've watched family who pissed away their lives committing slow suicide (such as through alcoholism) and found myself disdainful of them, it seems to me to be a coward's way out.

[edge walker]

I made it sound more distant in my post because I didn't want people to know.
:)

[Jonah Davids]

I don't buy the idea that suicide is selfish. 'Think of your friends, family, your loved ones!' Well, what if your family and friends don't really care too much? What if they just experience a little bit of grief and get over it and move on and live happy productive lives? What if you just cause them a bit of annoyance? While on the side of the suicidal person, you're relieving great and terrible misery. I don't think it's selfish. And what do you do when you try that 'think of your mum and best friend!' thing on someone who doesn't have any friends or living family? Then it doesn't work, and they go and off themselves because the only reason against suicide you could come up with was some lame-ass attempt to guilt-trip you by playing you against a social setting.

It's just one of those cheap, cliched, oft-used but fact-less mantras like "rape is about power, not sex" or the idea that chicken soup is good if you have the flu. I mean, like yeah - I'd surely live a life of constant agony than cause my friends some sadness.

[Lurker]

I don't buy the idea that suicide is selfish. 'Think of your friends, family, your loved ones!' Well, what if your family and friends don't really care too much? What if they just experience a little bit of grief and get over it and move on and live happy productive lives? What if you just cause them a bit of annoyance? While on the side of the suicidal person, you're relieving great and terrible misery. I don't think it's selfish. And what do you do when you try that 'think of your mum and best friend!' thing on someone who doesn't have any friends or living family? Then it doesn't work, and they go and off themselves because the only reason against suicide you could come up with was some lame-ass attempt to guilt-trip you by playing you against a social setting.

It's just one of those cheap, cliched, oft-used but fact-less mantras like "rape is about power, not sex" or the idea that chicken soup is good if you have the flu. I mean, like yeah - I'd surely live a life of constant agony than cause my friends some sadness.

Have you ever considered that maybe people love you more than you realize?

Also, if you ever have children who depend on you, I think you'll understand what I mean about suicide as a selfish act. The phrase is used as a cliche, sure. I recognize that each situation is different, and that it's not always selfish to commit suicide. I just acknowledge that it's hard to judge the impact it would have on other people, especially when your thinking is distorted by pain.

It does feel like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. To use a cliche. ;)

Added: You're kind of preaching to the choir (cliche!) here. Anyway, the situation is more nuanced than you're acknowledging.

[Faust06]

I don't buy the idea that suicide is selfish.

It's selfish, just like everything else we do, but it doesn't necessarily have to hurt anyone else.

Staying in misery and putting on an act to please your loved ones seems less ideal than suicide. I think one should exhaust all the options for getting better. Most people really don't. The depression seems to override the ambition to do much about it, but thinking rationaly about a situation I'd say anybody can take some steps to help themselves. It's not often someone contemplating suicide decides to leave the country and explore as a measure. They just stay cooped up in their filthy empty environment.

I mean, if being dead is a viable option, what's the big deal with something as radical as moving away and a change of career? Are suicidals pussies?

[Jonah Davids]

Have you ever considered that maybe people love you more than you realize?


This may be true for me, this may be true for you, but surely it is not true for everybody. Some people simply aren't loved and I daresay that might be both partial cause and one symptom of depression in the first place.


Also, if you ever have children who depend on you, I think you'll understand what I mean about suicide as a selfish act. The phrase is used as a cliche, sure. I recognize that each situation is different, and that it's not always selfish to commit suicide. I just acknowledge that it's hard to judge the impact it would have on other people, especially when your thinking is distorted by pain.

Well, when I was referring to people without friends or living family and such, I didn't mean parents who have actual dependents. Obviously that could be seen as selfish.


Added: You're kind of preaching to the choir (cliche!) here. Anyway, the situation is more nuanced than you're acknowledging.

It is more nuanced than "suicide is selfish" too. :)

[Lurker]

It is more nuanced than "suicide is selfish" too. :)

Did you read my earlier post? That's not what I think.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1239601&postcount=262

[HoneyCyclical]

I think that when you are at the point of actually committing suicide there is no "feeling guilty for causing others pain" factor. People die all the time. Why is there a stigma of quickening it unless religious factors come into play.. Especially if you have a chronic illness. I think it's more shitty for people or family or friends to think "shame on them for being so selfish" then for the person actually committing the act. I'm not even talking about things like cancer or brain tumors but chronic conditions that take away normal living circumstances that would be a hardship on otherwise healthy people. IF you are in chronic pain with a chronic illness it is your right to be able to do with your body what you will. If you can not handle the circumstances of your illness more than other people with the same illness that does not make you weak. And really...if it does in some manner or another by society ...who fucking cares?! Fuck them. It's subjective. Some people have higher tolerance than others. It's what you are as an individual with the nature, character and mindset that you have that has to deal with that particular body and it's' genetic flaws, it's psychological flaws. IT's more selfish of family or friends to say, "oh you're being selfish by killing yourself, what about us" who have no damn idea what it's like personally. Again, subjective. They can only imagine it. If a friend killed themselves I would hate it but it would be their damn right over their own body to do so. I feel the same way about myself, my body and my subjectivity dealing with my body. Suicide is a constant thought in my life...to the point that I don't give it any drama. It's just there. Like the coat on your coatrack next to your door, or the clothes on your back. It holds no romance or poetry. It's a rational option. It's not impulsive or theatrical. There's no revelation or need for validation or attention. It's simply an option. Period.

[Jennywocky]

I don't buy the idea that suicide is selfish. 'Think of your friends, family, your loved ones!' Well, what if your family and friends don't really care too much? What if they just experience a little bit of grief and get over it and move on and live happy productive lives? What if you just cause them a bit of annoyance? While on the side of the suicidal person, you're relieving great and terrible misery. I don't think it's selfish. And what do you do when you try that 'think of your mum and best friend!' thing on someone who doesn't have any friends or living family? Then it doesn't work, and they go and off themselves because the only reason against suicide you could come up with was some lame-ass attempt to guilt-trip you by playing you against a social setting.

Typically relationally-detached viewpoint. Maybe that works for people like us, but a lot of people don't naturally work that way. Even when 9/11 happened, a large chunk of the country was shaken and grieving over the deaths of virtual strangers; for some reason, death just really shakes people, they feel close to those to whom they really have little connection. Family, of course, has far more connection, so it's going to be far worse even if most of the family is screwed up.

I actually agree with you to some degree, and staying alive for everyone else is a pretty stupid thing to do... because you won't ever really be happy or fulfilled, and so maybe you're not doing them any favors in your act of "selflessness."

You can't live for others without living for yourself first; it just doesn't work. While you didn't reference my post, maybe I should clarify: I spent pretty much my whole life "living for others" and since I didn't really exist for myself, I came pretty close to suicide. That's no way to live. I was actually already dead in all that ways that mean something.

I could have chosen to die physically, buying myself "peace" by hurting myself and also making others in my life carry the burden of my absence; instead, I chose to start living for myself, which ended up improving my quality of life so tremendously that I was able to give to others better than when I was trying to "live for them" at expense of myself.

I got called "selfish" by a number of people in my family and a few others for making changes to my life that disturbed the balance they were used to, but I realize they would have called me "selfish" too if I had killed myself, so... screw it.


It's just one of those cheap, cliched, oft-used but fact-less mantras like "rape is about power, not sex" or the idea that chicken soup is good if you have the flu. I mean, like yeah - I'd surely live a life of constant agony than cause my friends some sadness.

1. Just because the cliche is wrong doesn't mean the truths from which it was distorted are false.
2. There are more than two options here.


Have you ever considered that maybe people love you more than you realize?

That's one big realization I had.


Also, if you ever have children who depend on you, I think you'll understand what I mean about suicide as a selfish act.

That's the other.

One's children are in a completely different category than "other friends, family, and adults." It just impacts them on another whole level.

There are things I don't do for adult friends and family that I will do for my kids, because they're still in development and I have an entirely unique position in their lives that neither life nor death nor time can take away... even my absence impacts them as heavily as my presence.

I figured any pain they'd go through in readjusting to changes in my life was still far better (and redeemable) than the pain they'd go through if I was completely gone... and for reasons they might never fully understand and instead blame themselves for.

I don't think you can "live for your kids" because kids need to become independent adults, but I think a parent needs to make sacrifices for them.


It's selfish, just like everything else we do, but it doesn't necessarily have to hurt anyone else. Staying in misery and putting on an act to please your loved ones seems less ideal than suicide.

Or, at least, the hurt caused can become a redemptive experience and might be entirely necessary, rather than "needless hurt."

I also hate the term "selfish," since it has such negative connotations. Our language just has not settled on an appropriate word that people grasp instinctively.


I mean, if being dead is a viable option, what's the big deal with something as radical as moving away and a change of career? Are suicidals pussies?

They can be.
Or hopeless.

Either feeling can lead someone to jump over the edge.

Just to explore a moment in the situation you suggest:

The problem is usually that the person is under a lot of unending pain -- physically, psychologically, whatever... to the degree where they feel that more attempts to remove the pain IRL is hopeless.

If you're burning to death in a fire and in terrible agony and you've already run all around the cage looking for a way out and can't find any, and you have a gun in your hand and can end your life in a second, then if you have to choose between more pain/fruitless attempts to escape and ending the pain, if the person feels like no attempts will be successful, then ending the pain makes the most sense.

So choosing between death and "moving away / looking for a new career" -- do you think they haven't tried to do the latter before? For some reason, that goal seems impossible. Coupled with chronic pain, then, the most rational response might seem to be to end things.

[Faust06]

I also hate the term "selfish," since it has such negative connotations. Our language just has not settled on an appropriate word that people grasp instinctively.


Same, but I think that word is here to stay.

[Lurker]

If you're burning to death in a fire and in terrible agony and you've already run all around the cage looking for a way out and can't find any, and you have a gun in your hand and can end your life in a second, then if you have to choose between more pain/fruitless attempts to escape and ending the pain, if the person feels like no attempts will be successful, then ending the pain makes the most sense.

This is an excellent metaphor.

[Jonah Davids]

Did you read my earlier post? That's not what I think.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1239601&postcount=262

I didn't mean to imply that's what you or anyone here specifically thinks, I was merely ranting against the prevailing notion.


Typically relationally-detached viewpoint. Maybe that works for people like us, but a lot of people don't naturally work that way. Even when 9/11 happened, a large chunk of the country was shaken and grieving over the deaths of virtual strangers; for some reason, death just really shakes people, they feel close to those to whom they really have little connection.

For some reason? Like perhaps reasons given by the media bombardment campaign. In "the post-9/11 world" "national grieving" for the "tragic loss of life" was virtually commanded from on high. It's not just death: plenty of people die every day, in the hundreds, in the thousands. Most of America couldn't give a shit. Half a million dead Iraqis didn't seem to shake up a large chunk of this country. Perhaps people here just decided not to feel close enough to those particular strangers to be shaken and grieving.

Bad example, I think.

[Aridela]

I have considered it a couple of times in the past.That said I believe that being in a young age and all,my problems were magnified but the lack of the self-esteem and knowledge of self that I have now.Also these problems were by no means minor and was beyond my power to change my situation.Still I believed(and I still do) that it's cowadlice that leads you there most of all and inablility to just accept life and move on.After realizing the above I changed my life to a point that I consider myself almost happy.Which is a great achievement for an alien/mutant INTP I guess :)

[satesone]

..

[Merak]

I suppose I fall into the "tried and failed" category, although it wasn't technically an attempt. I simply took "experimenting" a little too far, and if I had not gone in for help, I'd have likely died within 24 hours. If I actually made an attempt, I'd be dead.

My theory on depression is that it is simply a test of resilience. For example, you put a person in a situation that makes them unhappy. If that person is only in that situation for an hour, no big deal, right? So you put them in that situation for a week, and now it starts to wear on them. As time increases, the depression gets more severe. This would explain why people get depressed in what seems to be situations that are not all that terrible; it is just that they have been in said situations long enough where it eventually breaks them down.

This is how it was for me. I have a difficult time with participating in society. I like to detach and view things from the side, not to be forced to participate in meaningless tasks. I struggled with depression from the age of 15 or so, until 22-23 years of age. In retrospect, it is now obvious why I was so down; I was being forced to live my life in a way I didn't agree with. And with each passing day, it brought me further down bit by bit. After a while, suicide does become a pratical option.

Long story short, it wasn't until I was able to get out on my own and live my life according to my own ideals, in which I started enjoying life again. I lead an eccentric lifestyle, but I am a very content person.

There is a lesson to be learned here; instead of stuffing anti-depressants into everyone, we should instead promote knowledge and the freedom to live life according to ones own ideals. Of course, I live in America. We are lazy and would rather just resort to pills to solve all of our problems.

[Blackhat]

Contemplated passingly

Contemplated seriously

Attempted but knew it wouldn't work (no physical damage done)

I probably would never seriously attempt to.

[pan_sonic_000]

When I was in my early teens, I was depressed almost constantly. Not from specific circumstances or events, but because existence felt erroneous in a way I couldn't clearly define. My depression was less of a reactionary sadness and more of a "WTF is this"? It was further compounded by realizing I was being groomed for a life of absurd, redundant activities that had no obvious connection to anything meaningful and that God and inherent human value weren't real. A few times I stood in front of a mirror with an unloaded gun in my mouth to see if the reflected image would shock some previously unrealized perspective to the forefront of my consciousness. A perspective that, I hoped, would illuminate an aspect of life I'd been overlooking until then; some kind of meaning or reason for applying effort or just existing. The only thing I saw was a scrawny kid that was either missing something that everyone else noticed or was noticing something that everyone else was missing. Regardless, the whole act was underwhelming and I decided I wouldn't find my answers by flirting with suicide.

That went off and on for a while as I passed through a variety of philosophies and value systems, ultimately reaching its zenith about 4 years ago when I couldn't find a single reason to live. I knew I could fabricate one but I'd rather be dead than live a daily lie. I could also accept there was no reason and, then, the only rational thing to do would be to commit suicide. At least that's how I saw it at the time. Fortunately, I emerged from all that with a much greater understanding of myself and my place in the world and, since then, have had no suicidal inclinations at all. In fact, my life has gotten better and better with the exception of about a year ago when I almost dropped out of life and moved to Montana - but that was a short lived plan.

[avolkiteshvara]

Never intentionally. More like just being careless and walking in front of a bus or getting sick and not caring to take medicine.

[Faust06]

When I was in my early teens, I was depressed almost constantly. Not from specific circumstances or events, but because existence felt erroneous in a way I couldn't clearly define. My depression was less of a reactionary sadness and more of a "WTF is this"? It was further compounded by realizing I was being groomed for a life of absurd, redundant activities that had no obvious connection to anything meaningful and that God and inherent human value weren't real. A few times I stood in front of a mirror with an unloaded gun in my mouth to see if the reflected image would shock some previously unrealized perspective to the forefront of my consciousness. A perspective that, I hoped, would illuminate an aspect of life I'd been overlooking until then; some kind of meaning or reason for applying effort or just existing. The only thing I saw was a scrawny kid that was either missing something that everyone else noticed or was noticing something that everyone else was missing. Regardless, the whole act was underwhelming and I decided I wouldn't find my answers by flirting with suicide.

Same, minus the gun.

I could never justify suicide, so I attempted to deconstruct all the problems I faced, mostly problems of character. I effectively let go of anxiety (mostly), and since then tried to find the peace of mind that I'm doing the right thing. Went through an "objectivist" phase at 17-19. I'm no longer depressed, yet I still can't answer what I asked myself all those years ago. Probably not the right questions.

[Qfwfq]

where's the attempted and succeeded option?

[Faust06]

where's the attempted and succeeded option?

Sadly, no longer with us.

[cripple]

My theory on depression is that it is simply a test of resilience.
Interesting. Any ideas as to why this differ with people? As I assume it does.

[Merak]

Interesting. Any ideas as to why this differ with people? As I assume it does.

Keep in mind I have no background in psychology, and I am on theorizing this based off of life experience.

I'd guess it is because people have different personalities, backgrounds, and life experiences; different people will have different resilience levels. The idea is that depression is just the body's reaction to how the mind wants a different lifestyle or change.

My theory is that it is a breakdown process. If one day goes by in this lifestyle, then it is no big deal. The body bounces back without any issues. But as each day goes by, it becomes increasingly difficult. The mind knows that it wants out, so the resulting chemical reactions take place; the person starts to go through all the physical symptoms of depression as a way to coax that person to take action and change the situation.

This also explains why a person can seem like they are in a perfectly harmless situation, yet react so poorly to it. The severity of the depression is not necessarily specific to the situation, but rather based off of how long said people have been breaking down.

This, of course, only applies to general depression. I am not a woman, so I will never experience childbirth, but the depression that often follows that may actually be due to chemical changes in the body. Childbirth does all kinds of strange things to a person's body.

This also doesn't apply to other mental illnesses.

Whether the above holds any truth or not, either way I don't care for the way society is so quick to stuff medication down everyone's throats.

[Jonah Davids]

Every day, every decision, you choose to live a little bit more. Or to die a little bit more. For me so many of the decisions come out to be the latter type. The slow, cowardly, indirect method of suicide, where you just toss your life away bit by bit. Like smoking cigarettes.

[zoltan]

i had headaches everyday for a year, always thought a knife into the temple might give it a reason to actually ache. the headaches went away eventually, so i no longer think about it.

[Zelda]

My father and uncle (dad's brother) completed suicides at ages 38 and 27 respectively (I was in my teens at the time of both deaths). It seems to "run in families" and the Hemingway family are a good example of this. You can find varying theories on this online if interested in learning more.

[Faust06]

My father and uncle (dad's brother) completed suicides at ages 38 and 27 respectively (I was in my teens at the time of both deaths). It seems to "run in families" and the Hemingway family are a good example of this. You can find varying theories on this online if interested in learning more.

It does, along with mental illness. All of my dad's sisters (5) are on anti-depressants, and 2 of my grandfather's brothers died in an asylum. Nobody close to the family has successfully committed suicide so far, though.

[Zelda]

It does, along with mental illness. All of my dad's sisters (5) are on anti-depressants, and 2 of my grandfather's brothers died in an asylum. Nobody close to the family has successfully committed suicide so far, though.

Yes, they do go hand in hand. Both my dad and uncle were hospitalized also, numerous times actually, but my dad was not med compliant (I'm not sure about my uncle) so I don't know if meds would have helped him or not.

[Bambi]

To all of you who've attempted and failed, well, would you make up your minds, morons? :wub:

[Charmes]

I've been in a depression for the last 2 years now. I was already in a bad situation in my live with my school, career (moving from study to study) and social(development)live (just broke up) before my depression.
Then when I tried to push myself harder to commit to just finishing my college to the degree and work at my fathers company, I got more and more lazy, apathetic, self pitiful and depressed:banghead:.
Now trying to get out of the depression with antidepressants and quit school, I dwell more and more in my failures (unaccomplishements) and the inherent consecuences for my future, as I'm not fooling myself anymore thinking I'm fine.
I have high expectations for my future (always had rich, succesful, handsome).
So the realization of not being able to reach them anymore whilst comparing myself to succesfull people of/when my age is....... unbearable.
As i've thought about suicide before there was always an alternative path in which the apparent notion of failure was bearable/obscured.
Now at 24 living solely inside my head, no energy, no perspective, very little social interactivity(to much pressure), getting stared at because of my anxious look.
Only keeping myself busy with regrets, shame and jealousy. It's like a neuroses an addiction. Like I need to confront myself over and over with my failures, Because I have to experience the truth. When I'm getting some perspective I immediately become critical of it because 'I don't want to get my hopes up'.

Because of my apathy I was unaware of the severity of my condition, now that I'm writing it I see that I'm very very sick.

Now the desire to end my life is extreme some of the time, however its passive as I am a passive person. I wouldn't have the courage to do it, like Ted from Scrubs.



* Just had a major breakthrough, I realized the fact that I'm an extremely lazy person and I need to accept that in order to get active.

[Wolfe]

I felt like this, then something inside me changed. Killing one's self is not an option. Triumph or Die -but not by one's own hands.

[guccimane]

I had pretty bad depression about 4 or 5 years ago around when I was 21. Included suicidal thoughts and everything. I think a little depression from time to time is healthy to some extent. Anyways I pulled myself out pretty well by having a more positive outlook and trying to let go of my ego and whatnot. This website helped some actually. Also cigarettes helped a lot, much better than anti-depressant meds.

[ciphersort]

Once a long time ago I contemplated this... Then I discovered the joys of dope and am still around today. Thank you drugs!

[Neville]

It's still a viable option, once all others are exhausted.

[Ayeaye]

i have contemplated it seriously but i think its a serious mistake.i think the poll shows how serious an issue this is.

[Charmes]

Turns out I have ADD (ADHD-PI).... If you have similar problems check out ADHD-PI on wikipedia

Greets

[luff]

Suicide? Nah, I don't like to hurry.

[Angry_Groceries]

Suicide?

Passively contemplated. If there was a gun in the house, perhaps seriously.

I won't do it, though. It would screw up many people in my family and my best friend would probably think it was her fault. I couldn't do that to them, and I definitely couldn't do that to her.

Suicide calls the question into being: "What is the purpose of living?"

There are many people in horrible situations that continue to survive, they willingly continue to live despite the bad hand life has dealt them.

Life is full of pain. Over the billions of years life has been changing, the creatures who felt enough discomfort to do something about it were the ones who survived.

You can make the purpose of your life happiness, but the people who actually achieve that are the ones who can deal with or ignore the pain.

With these tidbits of information in mind, the purpose of living is 'purpose' itself.

Most people who commit suicide demonstrate some sort of lack of purpose.

"What's the point of living? I'm going to die soon anyway."

"I'm in such a bad position right now that there's no point continuing to live."

People who commit suicide are the ones who have lost sight of their own purpose and for whatever reason haven't been able to get another one.

Knowing this, I've been giving myself as many purposes that I can.

The purposes of my life are Love, happiness, creation (composing music), acquiring knowledge...

Having a purpose of acquiring knowledge is a kind of fail-safe to committing suicide as it is difficult to never gain a bit of knowledge throughout anything you do.

[cripple]

Suicide calls the question into being: "What is the purpose of living?"

Really? you think you have a purpose? What made you ask this question?

Why not just not ask this question, would not that solve the existential drama?

[krauser]

Contemplating suicide probably means you think you've hit rock bottom.

When that happens, I'd prefer to do what the "Godfather" did. Kill some scumbags, be a gangster.

[Curtis24]

I think i may have contemplated it passingly - but even then I was never really serious.

[momidoll]

Contemplated it a couple of times when I was deeply depressed, but then I quickly realized that it required taking action, not to mention the inability to change my mind.

[stigmatica]

Contemplated seriously on several occasions long long ago. I don't think I was ever in any danger of concluding for it, though.

[Webols]

contemplated passingly then finished wiping and decided to never eat jalepenos again.:ph34r:

[cripple]

I think hanging in a worn down disintegrated shelter in the woods just when the sun is about to settle. And you get the lightrays beaming in trough the holes in the roof and walls, party illuminating the still hanging body, that should be made up as prettily as possible could make up for an excellent photograph. I guess one could hook up the camera on a timer to capture the moment when everything was just right.

But, what if you fuck up? A cloud put's it all in darkness and the hole scene just looks miserable and boring? And people just start crying when they see the beautiful pics, or even worse, just deletes them. That's depressing. Would have to hook up a computer as well, and upload live to the net, to make sure the pics are evaluated properly before they go to the trash can.I don't think I got the skills to pull it off. It would have to be perfect or else it's just seems as pointless as living.

So I don't think I've ever seriously contemplated suicide. And there is a long way from good/bad ideas to action. I guess suicide seems as pointless to me as living, so why even bother?

[RedDeath9]

Absurd^

Contemplated passingly, btw. At least, I'm pretty sure it was just passingly...

[cripple]

Absurd^

What is?

[RedDeath9]

The situation you outlined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

"For some, suicide is a solution when confronted with the futility of living a life devoid of all purpose, as it is only a means to quicken the resolution of one's ultimate fate. For Albert Camus in The Myth of Sisyphus, suicide is not a worthwhile solution, because if life is veritably absurd, it is therefore even more absurd to counteract it; instead, we should engage in living, and reconcile the fact that we live in a world without purpose."

[cripple]

Thanks a lot. Now everyone is going to realize that I think that what most everything they write is absurd. :banghead: (me)

I did an online quiz
http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/new/BIGC/which-existentialist-philosopher-are-you/

You Scored as Albert Camus

You are Albert Camus, so you are one sweet absurdist. He built largely upon the framework of existentialists before him, but introduced the concept that life is absurd, but that we should continue living anyway. You have strong liberal leanings, although you annoy the Communists. You are susceptible to driving fast, and possibly crashing into a tree.

Albert Camus
71%
Friedrich Nietzsche
39%
Soren Kierkegaard
36%
Jean-Paul Sartre
32%
Not An Existentialist
32%
Martin Heidegger
25%
Although the notion of the 'absurd' is pervasive in all of the literature of Albert Camus (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Absurdism), The Myth of Sisyphus is his chief work on the subject. In it, Camus considers absurdity as a confrontation, an opposition, a conflict, or a "divorce" between two ideals. Specifically, he defines the human condition as absurd, as the confrontation between man's desire for significance/meaning/clarity and the silent, cold universe. He continues that there are specific human experiences that evoke notions of absurdity. Such a realization or encounter with the absurd leaves the individual with a choice: suicide, a leap of faith, or acceptance. He concludes that acceptance is the only defensible option.[7]

For Camus, suicide is a "confession" that life is simply not worth living. It is a choice that implicitly declares that life is "too much." Suicide offers the most basic "way out" of absurdity, the immediate termination of the self and self's place in the universe.

The absurd encounter can also arouse a "leap of faith," a term derived from one of Kierkegaard's early pseudonyms, Johannes de Silentio (but the term was not used by Kierkegaard himself[8]), where one understands that there is more than the rational life (aesthetic or ethical). To take a "leap of faith," one must act with the "virtue of the absurd" (as Johannes de Silentio put it), where a suspension of the ethical may need to exist. This is not the dogmatic "faith" that we have come to know; Silentio would call that an "infinite resignation" and a false, cheap "faith." This faith has no expectations but is a flexible power propelled by the absurd. Camus considers the leap of faith as "philosophical suicide." Camus, like Kierkegaard, rejects both this and physical suicide.[8][9]

Lastly, man can choose to embrace his own absurd condition. According to Camus, man's freedom, and the opportunity to give life meaning, lies in the acknowledgment and acceptance of absurdity. If the absurd experience is truly the realization that the universe is fundamentally devoid of absolutes, then we as individuals are truly free. "To live without appeal,"[10] as he puts it, is a philosophical move that begins to define absolutes and universals subjectively, rather than objectively. The freedom of man is, thus, established in man's natural ability and opportunity to create his own meaning and purpose, to decide himself. The individual becomes the most precious unit of the existence, as he represents a set of unique ideals that can be characterized as an entire universe by itself.

Camus states in The Myth of Sisyphus: "Thus I draw from the absurd three consequences, which are my revolt, my freedom, and my passion. By the mere activity of consciousness I transform into a rule of life what was an invitation to death, and I refuse suicide.That's scarily identical to my own findings. Maybe I'm INFP, because this guy does appear to be one. Maybe I just have to embrace this fully, and everything will be just fine.

[A Schnitzel]

contemplated passingly then finished wiping and decided to never eat jalepenos again.:ph34r:

The other day I had a similar problem after my father put a bag of serrano's into a pot of chili thinking they were bell peppers. If it wasn't for 2-ply I might have just ended it right there.

[YHWH]

Thanks a lot. Now everyone is going to realize that I think that what most everything they write is absurd. :banghead: (me)

I did an online quiz
http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/new/BIGC/which-existentialist-philosopher-are-you/
That's scarily identical to my own findings. Maybe I'm INFP, because this guy does appear to be one. Maybe I just have to embrace this fully, and everything will be just fine.

Camus is INTP.

[cripple]

Camus is INTP.
You sure?

In any case I found a lot of truth in the excerpt I quoted.

[RedDeath9]

I think I'm an absurdist/nihilist. There doesn't seem to be anything else that fits me.

But wait!

"Existential nihilism is the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. It can stem from scientific analysis showing that only the physical laws contributed to our existence. With respect to the universe, a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and is not likely to change in the totality of existence. Quite simply, nihilists in this respect believe that the only purpose in life is to live it."

Maybe I haven't had so rough a life. Actually, I KNOW I haven't. For now, I'm content with just living... And living... And feeling... And all those other good things.

[doob]

I did an online quiz
http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/new/BIGC/which-existentialist-philosopher-are-you/


You Scored as Friedrich Nietzsche

You are Friedrich Nietzsche. You are a sweet philosopher who believed that humans are caught up in "herds" and need to break free and be individuals. Also, there are no standards to judge against, because "God is dead." You also probably suffer from a mental illness, probably due to some form of an untreated STD, and will most likely suffer a mental collapse.


Not An Existentialist
54%
Friedrich Nietzsche
54%
Albert Camus
43%
Jean-Paul Sartre
43%
Martin Heidegger
43%
Soren Kierkegaard
29%

...I'm off to the free clinic to have myself checked

Answering the OP, homicide before suicide.

[kali]

You Scored as Martin Heidegger

You are Martin Heidegger. You are a very wordy person that believes we classify objects by their function, and that community is essential. Once we are in a community, then it is possible for us to differentiate ourselves. You also might have sympathetic feelings towards Nazis.

Martin Heidegger 68%
Jean-Paul Sartre 54%
Friedrich Nietzsche 50%
Not An Existentialist 39%
Albert Camus 32%
Soren Kierkegaard 29%

me being a neo-nazi = self-hatred, lol.
I have a lot of contempt for people who are unable to separate Heidegger's philosophy from his nazism leanings.

[PHAGE]

Suicide: Natural selection at its finest.

And remember kids: If at first you don't succeed, try and try again. :banana:

[bootness]

Suicide: Natural selection at its finest.

And remember kids: If at first you don't succeed, try and try again. :banana:

Nice.

I attempted it once, and it really helps me in my counselling others who are depressed and/or considering it. I have compassion for those who are intelligent and sensitive enough to find life painful and realize that it has no intrinsic "meaning", other than just living it and experiencing it. After my attempt, I woke up the next morning and just watched the sun coming through the leaves in the trees, and was happy to be alive.

I try to focus on small things that give me joy, rather than things that are too big and awful for me to affect much (genocide, ecological degradation, arrogant insensitive assholes that pervade the world). And when I'm down, I try to revel in that too. Feeling awful is better than feeling nothing ever again. I think that life has to be its own reward.

[Wolfe]

I have compassion for those who are intelligent and sensitive enough to find life painful and realize that it has no intrinsic "meaning", other than just living it and experiencing it.

This crosses my mind everyday. What is the purpose of life? I believe the end result of living one's life defeats the purpose of living. I look at my mother and other people, they work hard until they are worn - life shouldn't have to be difficult. There is no need for people to be greedy, to have class segregation, corruption etc etc, yet it is still exists in the world. And then after all this, you die. What is the point? This in itself makes me demotivated to do anything, or make any accomplishments.

I am trying to change this outlook and just live life for myself, existentialism seems to fight the bill nicely, but in the back of my mind I know I am going to die. Then there will be nothing.

[zoltan]

There is no purpose to life, but that doesnt mean you have to make it dull and boring.

The best advice i can give is just to do whatever the hell you want. Anytime you dont like something, change it. If you cant, then just get away from it. Live for pleasure. If the fact that life has no meaning is keeping you from enjoying it, youre just being pretentious.

[MarceloLop]

There is no purpose to life, but that doesnt mean you have to make it dull and boring.

The best advice i can give is just to do whatever the hell you want. Anytime you dont like something, change it. If you cant, then just get away from it. Live for pleasure. If the fact that life has no meaning is keeping you from enjoying it, youre just being pretentious.

What if you feel like you want to murder people?
For some reason i felt like it might be fun, lately (no, i am not a murderer [at least yet]).
But just like every other thought i had its gonna bore me sooner or later.

[zoltan]

What if you feel like you want to murder people?
For some reason i felt like it might be fun, lately (no, i am not a murderer [at least yet]).
But just like every other thought i had its gonna bore me sooner or later.

I didnt say there wouldnt be consequences.

[bugsydakid]

There is no purpose to life, but that doesnt mean you have to make it dull and boring.

The best advice i can give is just to do whatever the hell you want. Anytime you dont like something, change it. If you cant, then just get away from it. Live for pleasure. If the fact that life has no meaning is keeping you from enjoying it, youre just being pretentious.

I will soundly comment by saying that is a sane man's way of thinking, yet the logic is alright. For the insane man, it is wildly more spontaneous. For me though, no more suicide attempts, I made a promise that next time I try I will be successful.

[charnack]

I haven't seriously considered killing myself since I was 16 or so, but I have contemplated it passingly fairly regularly. I know what methods I'd employ, if I ever reached the point of having no hope left. I've made sure my life insurance would pay regardless of my cause of death. I think it's a little like that pack of cigarettes I kept around years after I quit smoking. It's there, it's an option if I really need it. I can easily see situations where suicide would be a logical and sane option. I fervently hope I am not confronted with any of them, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared, just in case.

[Lagspike]

Thought about it in some extremely bad situations, but the thought would pass after a few seconds since I would usually start thinking about how can I make the situation more favorable to me and how can I get my revenge on those who made me feel bad (another thing that never materializes).

[Wassup]

I lost all my Gameroom cash on my first visit there yesterday. Still deciding if suicide is the right response. I'll get back to you.

[Megalomaniac]

Suicide is always an option but it's not worth it... no matter the situation or circumstance.

[Stigmata]

I've contemplated it before but the thought of imaging my family at the funeral generally puts things into perspective. I wouldn't condone someone killing themselves but I can definitely understand what motives people have in doing so, it's really the ultimate form of escapism.

[Ace_]

Is it so bad being an INTP that almost 90% of you contemplated or attempted suicide?

[Stigmata]

Is it so bad being an INTP that almost 90% of you contemplated or attempted suicide?

I wouldn't even necessarily associated that with MBTI, I'd say most people at have one point or another has on some level contemplated suicide with the severity of it varying from person to person. I imagine it the reasons of contemplation not only stem from feeling depressed, but also maybe just the curiosity of what exactly awaits for them on the "other side".

[socrateez]

Is it so bad being an INTP that almost 90% of you contemplated or attempted suicide?
Can't really speak for the rest of INTP-dom, but for me it is just as bad as it is good. The social discomfort and emotional uncertainty border on misanthropy. So while I may be head and shoulders above others in certain regards, it is that which comes so natural to others but not myself that causes isolation and ultimately depression. Unable to communicate effectively on a unconscious instinctual and primal level is terrible as I am always excruciatingly aware of it.

Yes. Ive tried and failed. Failure was due to being found in the nick of time. Overdose of Tylenol and muscle relaxers. The object of that combination being that the relaxers would cause enough motor instability to prevent myself from leaving the chosen locale. Worked pretty well too.

I have suffered self destructive thought processes as early as I can remember. As far as I know, I was born that way and environmental factors bloomed it into fruition. the older I have gotten the more often and more active suicidal thoughts have become. I have had many major depressive episodes in my life.

Seems this forum contains many people at the extremes of many spectra. Over and under-achievers one of the more obvious.

[Radio City]

Is it so bad being an INTP that almost 90% of you contemplated or attempted suicide?

Yeah!

Theory: I was consistently testing as an INFJ before and after my suicide attempts, INTJ during the recovery periods, and INFP for a little while after that. Perhaps the INTP who has not accepted his/her INTPness is suicidal?

[Zelda]

Following a 10 year long period of experiencing nothing short of success, something unexpected happened and as a result I felt that I failed at life. I have pretty minimal standards for others and understand very well how flawed human beings are, but nonetheless had unreasonably high expectations for myself. My INTJ dad who was also self-made and quite successful in life ended up successfully killing himself as well. When I attempted and failed I felt like an even bigger failure. My P developed very strongly as a direct result of the failed attempt.

[Andantino]

Is it so bad being an INTP that almost 90% of you contemplated or attempted suicide?

It's not just INTPs. Just sayin'.

[Xarog]

Is it so bad being an INTP that almost 90% of you contemplated or attempted suicide?
Lol.

Listen mate, half of INTPs have probably contemplated the existence of god as a massive pizza. You shouldn't read too much into anyone, particularly INTPs of contemplating anything passingly.

And even someone who "contemplated suicide seriously" may have felt absolutely no desire whatsoever to actually commit suicide. I mean, at which point does thinking about suicide change from "passing" to "serious"? I've often spent time thinking about suicide rates and what the causes for it are and how to alleviate it; does that make me someone that contemplated it seriously or not?

[edge walker]

I've often spent time thinking about suicide rates and what the causes for it are and how to alleviate it; does that make me someone that contemplated it seriously or not?
It puts you under Never even thought about it.

[Xarog]

It puts you under Never even thought about it.
I disagree.

It says the closest you've ever come to suicide, it doesn't explicitly state the closest you've come to comitting suicide.

Serious contemplation in a detached manner is still serious contemplation.

And you have some nerve to assume that I've never thought about suicide in any other way, tbh.

[stigmatica]

I think it does.

It says the closest you've ever come to suicide, it doesn't explicitly state the closest you've come to comitting suicide.

Serious contemplation in a detached manner is still serious contemplation.

That was not the intention of the question, though. That would be far too literal of an interpretation. Are you a lawyer by chance? :p

[Xarog]

That was not the intention of the question, though. That would be far too literal of an interpretation. Are you a lawyer by chance? :p
:grin:

You're right that it's probably not the intention of the question. And I answered it as if it was asking about the closest you've come to comitting suicide.

However, I take issue with the idea of thinking that everyone else who voted saw the question the same way. You have to take into account that they saw the question differently before you start making claims that 90% of INTPs have thought about killing themselves.

[stigmatica]

:grin:

You're right that it's probably not the intention of the question. And I answered it as if it was asking about the closest you've come to comitting suicide.

However, I take issue with the idea of thinking that everyone else who voted saw the question the same way. You have to take into account that they saw the question differently before you start making claims that 90% of INTPs have thought about killing themselves.

Well, even if the question on it's own isn't entirely clear, having the option to answer "Attempted and failed" should remove any doubt as to the meaning of the question.

However, yes, even if it was more clearly worded, people would have slightly different interpretations as to where the lines between the options are drawn. That's beside the fact that it's not just INTP's answering the poll! :p

[Xarog]

Well, even if the question on it's own isn't entirely clear, having the option to answer "Attempted and failed" should remove any doubt as to the meaning of the question.
I disagree :p

Attempting suicide would push it into the realm of having personal experience with it (which is closer than a dispassionate but serious consideration of the subject, I'm sure you'll agree). I could quite easily make a similar poll that had the options "attempted and failed", "had a loved one or friend commit suicide", and the finally "contemplated it seriously", and the poll would still make sense and each option would seem reasonable and within the same context as all the other options.

[edge walker]

I take issue with the idea of thinking that everyone else who voted saw the question the same way.
That's true of every single poll ever; your particular objection is a red herring. And the question of how the poll is worded seems of absurdly little interest vs the question the poll raises.

[manza]

I went through a period of severe depression where I was nervous about the fact that I owned a gun. I think the only thing that stopped me from using it (or coming close) was the fact that it was given to me by my stepdad, a hardcore gun advocate, as a means of self-defense. To use it to end my life would be absolutely heartbreaking and an unbearable burden for him. Suicide causes enough harm; using a sincere gift to do it is unconscionable for me.

[Ptah]

Have I ever considered suicide as a course of action for myself, hypothetically or "seriously"? Only within certain, very limited contexts (ie, contrived emergency scenarios in which the point would be to end what is otherwise a prolonged period of terminal suffering). Otherwise: it's a stupid notion for stupid people, if you ask me.

Life: live it or don't. Pick one, shut up, and move on.

[Xarog]

That's true of every single poll ever; your particular objection is a red herring. And the question of how the poll is worded seems of absurdly little interest vs the question the poll raises.
BS. In this case there is a perfectly reasonable alternative interpretation.

And to be clear, if it's of such absurdly little interest, why did you even bother with it in the first place? In the very same post you first quoted, I alluded to thinking about the subject; if you want an interesting discussion, why not focus on that instead of this nitpicking?

[manza]

The question is "What's the closest you've ever come to suicide?" In that context, "Contemplated seriously" can't really be interpreted to mean anything other than "Contemplated killing myself seriously".

[Ferrus]

I went through a period of severe depression where I was nervous about the fact that I owned a gun. I think the only thing that stopped me from using it (or coming close) was the fact that it was given to me by my stepdad, a hardcore gun advocate, as a means of self-defense. To use it to end my life would be absolutely heartbreaking and an unbearable burden for him. Suicide causes enough harm; using a sincere gift to do it is unconscionable for me.
I wouldn't even know where to get a gun. Any suicide method I would have to use would be considerably more messy; it is a valid part of the consideration the calculus of death.

[cripple]

"Contemplated killing myself seriously".
Most of those that commit suicide does not seem to have contemplated much. Not sure of the failure rate, but I bet it's pretty high.

[D33P7HR047]

Just buy a motorcycle and ride it without protective gear.

[socrateez]

Most of those that commit suicide does not seem to have contemplated much. Not sure of the failure rate, but I bet it's pretty high.
I am sure you are right. The failure rate is high. Many reasons for that but I don't think contemplation frequency is a big factor. More a matter of whether or not the thoughts become ideation or change from passive to active. There is a big difference.

In my case, passive thoughts are random, intrusive and unbidden. They are also fleeting and without any "drive". Near the realm of daydreams. Daily. At least without antidepressants.

At some point these increase in frequency and instead of random self destructive thoughts, they take on a theme. They start to establish a drive or have some hold or sway. They are even more intrusive...to the point of full fledged active planning and ideation of methods. Everything is shaded dark by this.
All the while, the rational part is still intact although a step or two down the ladder of importance. That part knows what is occurring in a detached powerless way. It wants to live as desperately as the other wants to die.The internal conflict is crippling as it is constant by that point. Escape from the pain feeds into the ideation providing further fuel for suicidal thoughts.

It has never been as simple a matter as thinking to myself, "I wonder what its like to die as my life is hell." It is far more insidious. The associated depression parallels in symptomatic severity. It is a downward spiral that picks up speed and power the farther down it goes. Like a vortex of self destruction.

[kali]

I indulge in suicide ideation quite a bit. Well, life and death in general.

I erroneously assumed other people did too. That's why I was shocked when my brother (aged 24, I think) ran into my room one day and cried "oh god, I just realised that I'm going to die one day". (To which I said, "get out of my room.")

I still marvel at little differences in thought processes like this.

[edge walker]

The failure rate is high.
Part of it is that there are many survival instincts that operate on a far more reflexive, primal level than the psyche that yearns for death. So even the determined often sabotage themselves at the last moment.

Oftentimes an attempt is a cry for attention more than a serious try for death, though. I read that men are far less likely to try than women, but when they do, are far more likely to succeed -- I think the figure was something like 4:1 both ways.

And s/he who survives a failed attempt, can make another, driving up the numbers. Serious suicidals who succeed on first try make small contribution to the statistics.


In my case, passive thoughts are random, intrusive and unbidden. They are also fleeting and without any "drive". Near the realm of daydreams.
Yeah. Images of dying this way or that way leap to consciousness randomly, during entirely unrelated activity or thoughts of train. And I agree with the whole spiral. For me, whether I'm getting those ideations is an objective barometer for my inner atmosphere -- I may not always realise how badly I'm doing when I notice them, but when I do, I know it's time to do something about my well-feeling.

[socrateez]

Yeah. Images of dying this way or that way leap to consciousness randomly, during entirely unrelated activity or thoughts of train. And I agree with the whole spiral. For me, whether I'm getting those ideations is an objective barometer for my inner atmosphere -- I may not always realise how badly I'm doing when I notice them, but when I do, I know it's time to do something about my well-feeling.
i have found the same...the hard way. My last major depression eventually resulted in suicidal ideation. To which I realized, "Oh Shit! I'm in pretty bad shape. I crept up on me long before I realized just how bad it was. I can definitely relate to the barometer aspect you mentioned.
It seems easier to see when its bad but harder to do anything about by that point. It took a major act of will to go see a doc and get back on the antidepressants I didnt think I needed anymore.

I note that I tend to seek out things that are supposed to help well-being. Exercise, nutrition, hobbies. I unconsciously seek them when it is near impossible to extract benefit in a normal manner. Too little to late, but it is a good warning sign to latch onto.
My earliest warning sign is muscle tension in the neck and upper back. Creates some wicked headaches as it plays on my TMJ. It is easy to dismiss this sign as being from other causes though.

[horvack]

The problem is usually that the person is under a lot of unending pain -- physically, psychologically, whatever... to the degree where they feel that more attempts to remove the pain IRL is hopeless.

If you're burning to death in a fire and in terrible agony and you've already run all around the cage looking for a way out and can't find any, and you have a gun in your hand and can end your life in a second, then if you have to choose between more pain/fruitless attempts to escape and ending the pain, if the person feels like no attempts will be successful, then ending the pain makes the most sense.

So choosing between death and "moving away / looking for a new career" -- do you think they haven't tried to do the latter before? For some reason, that goal seems impossible.


Well put, and this is an important distinction for me.

I realized that the problems I have with my life are caused by the ongoing decisions I make. I know what I want to change (end my self-imposed social isolation, find a meaningful role to play in my community), but the disfunction is so ingrained that I subconsciously view it as part of my self-identity. Trying to change the disfunction feels like asking me to physically transform into a different person. In short, I am the problem, and I can't just so somewhere else, or change the way I live, because I will still think the same way. I suspect this might have been what Ill_Eagle meant by emotional stupidity.

I have gone so far as to put a loaded gun to my head, and tighten my finger on the trigger. However, I still answered considered only passingly, because I knew at every step that I would never go through with it.

[Fjaertorslovaark]

I used to toy with the idea often, even though I was not depressed. I would scare the shit out of myself sometimes. My close INTJ friend when faced with hypothetical death situations responds with "I would not care, I'll be dead". While I agree with this, I have a tendency to include family in the big picture. What is irrelevant to a dead person is deeply tragic to those who loved them.

Intellectuals and depression are attracted to one another.

Look at David Foster Wallace for example, the phenomonal author and professor who killed himself in 2008. What a brilliant man.


I know what I want to change (end my self-imposed social isolation, find a meaningful role to play in my community), but the disfunction is so ingrained that I subconsciously view it as part of my self-identity.

I feel you on that one. But one of the great things about intoverted types, is we can connect very deeply with with similar minds. In our efforts to end self-imposed social isolation, a stepping stone is to interact with people who are on the same wavelength. Maybe even join a forced social conglomerate, like a philosophy discussion group.

I've personally had a reasonable social life in the past, but now that I live on my own it's slipping away.

Here is a blog that I have found useful. It may provide some guidelines to help us NTs learn to appreciate simple things more, and to enjoy the moment more (but fuck the early rising part):
[It won't let me post the URL, but it's called ZEN HABBITS.]

The way I appreciate simple things in life, is to view them as beautifully complex and organic. If we can tune ourselves more finely to details, and then examine something as simple as a leaf in an iscolated patch of forest, then it may sink in that there is indeed an intricate world beyond broad concepts, and it is so much more intricate than any digital manifestation, and in a way maybe even as fascinating as our dreams. Darwin did just this, and he was an INTP.

How about meditation? It's a great way to help focus the drifting mind. I took yoga for a bit, and when I was not disctacted by the ass of the girl in front of me, I found that the meditation part was quite powerful (but of course, it does not come naturally for us).

[1199]

Almost did it.

Me too

[MyMomentously]

Haven't crossed my mind....YET.

[Hylian]

I have briefly had the thought pass through my mind but it is something I would never act upon and I don't even let it float around the ol' noggin for more than a split second.

[kali]

I have briefly had the thought pass through my mind but it is something I would never act upon and I don't even let it float around the ol' noggin for more than a split second.

says the guy with the teddy seppuku avatar, lol.

[Hylian]

says the guy with the teddy seppuku avatar, lol.


I may not think about it for myself but that doesn't mean I don't make jokes about it or wish it upon others :)

[Lurker]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=being-suicidal-what-it-feels-like-t-2010-10-20

This is an excellent, insightful article about the cognitive processes of genuinely suicidal people. It's mostly based on Roy Baumeister's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Baumeister) theory of escape from the self and cognitive deconstruction, and to a lesser extent, it's a first-hand account of the applicability of Baumeister's theory.

A highly recommended read.

[Zelda]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=being-suicidal-what-it-feels-like-t-2010-10-20

This is an excellent, insightful article about the cognitive processes of genuinely suicidal people. It's mostly based on Roy Baumeister's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Baumeister) theory of escape from the self and cognitive deconstruction, and to a lesser extent, it's a first-hand account of the applicability of Baumeister's theory.

A highly recommended read.

Really insightful article, thanks for posting it. Definitely not a pretty picture but quite truthful and honest. This bit on suicide notes was interesting.


The more compelling studies on suicide notes, in my view, are those that use text analysis programs enabling the investigators to make exact counts of particular kinds of words. Compared to fake suicide notes, real suicide notes are notorious for containing first-person singular pronouns, a reflection of high self-awareness. And unlike letters written by people facing involuntary death, such as those about to be executed, suicide note writers rarely use inclusive language such as plural pronouns, such as “us” and “we.” When they do mention significant others, suicide note writers usually speak of them as being cut off, distant, separate, not understanding, or opposed. Friends and family, even a loving mother at arm’s length, feel endless oceans away.

My dad's suicide note was(is) a 4 page letter and IIRC the tone conveyed was one of both self-awareness and abstract thought rather than specific concrete details, so it's not representative of the majority apparently, though I wonder if it was more an exercise in analyzing his mood and possibly written days before he made the decision and followed through on it. Perhaps his plan really was much more impulsive than I initially thought.

I've been thinking of obtaining his note and I've periodically been tracking whose hands it has passed between over the years though I haven't quite decided whether or not I could emotionally handle having it in my possession. Perhaps it sounds a tad creepy, but the only memories I have are a handful of pictures and it would be another piece of him.