Naomi Wolf: A coup has happened

[garak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

Army combat unit has been deployed to "homeland" for "crowd control" (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_homeland_090708w/)

Congress threatened with martial law if bailout bill not passed (http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/36581)

[kendoiwan]

I asked a family member in the service about it, his response was "I can't talk about that" :mellow:

[MountainHiker]

I would argue that it's been happening slowly for some time now. They have just brought it to the surface now for all to see who are willing to see because they are bringing the final big piracy from the working and middle class to fruition and that cannot be conducted in secret. But then, I'm just one of those kooks who'd been warning a few select people about this crap for years, so what do I know?

[Karl]

I've seen some videos of Naomi Wolf before and I like her, even if there's some Liberal BS and anticommunism to wade through. I will get her book. Most of what she points out are things that I've already noticed and pointed them out as related to the rise of fascism, but she puts all them into one place and talks about it in a way that makes sense. I'd rather live in a country based on Liberalism than Fascism.

Watch the whole video; it's worth it.

[purveyor of truth]

I asked a family member in the service about it, his response was "I can't talk about that" :mellow:

A while back my daughter(an ex marine) told me that she and her husband(another ex marine) were being monitered by a government agency. She wouldnt elaborate...

[kendoiwan]

A while back my daughter(an ex marine) told me that she and her husband(another ex marine) were being monitered by a government agency. She wouldnt elaborate...

Confirmation by nonconfirmation... gotta love it:ph34r:

[pangolin]

Um, Scary! :ph34r:

[Oso Mocoso]

Um, Scary! :ph34r:

ZOMG! Naomi Wolf! The sky is falling! Everyone panic!!!

Bed wetting leftist bullshit.

[garak]

ZOMG! Naomi Wolf! The sky is falling! Everyone panic!!!

Bed wetting leftist bullshit.

Her analysis is pretty rational and well-informed. With the unprecedented power this president has granted himself and continues to do so, as well as the tactics that have been used to suppress people and even congress, how can you argue that her predictions are bullshit?

[pangolin]

ZOMG! Naomi Wolf! The sky is falling! Everyone panic!!!

Bed wetting leftist bullshit.

Truly, I have no idea who Naomi Wolf is, however, what she says, combined with the two other links, gives cause for concern.

[purveyor of truth]

If McCain wins I'll start paying attention to her for sure, something bad wrong has happened if he wins.

[Oso Mocoso]

Her analysis is pretty rational and well-informed. With the unprecedented power this president has granted himself and continues to do so, as well as the tactics that have been used to suppress people and even congress, how can you argue that her predictions are bullshit?

You really think Bush will refuse to cede power and try to take over the government? You're really capable of taking that seriously? Remember this is the woman who was possessed by the ghost of a 13 year old boy and personally met Jesus. I mean, consider her previous predictions.

[MountainHiker]

If McCain wins I'll start paying attention to her for sure, something bad wrong has happened if he wins.

You hit the bullseye on that one. But I also thought the same thing about Bush winning in 2000 and 2004, and I didn't really like Gore or Kerry. However, for McCain to win after kissing Bush butt for the past 8 years (he kissed it like a Maverick though!) would indicate either massive vote fraud or absolute lack of discernment on the part of American voters. I lean toward a combination of both.

My favorite are the folks who voted for Bush TWICE, but who now hate him yet are unwavering in their support for McCain. My bluntness in pointing out that we have no reason to trust their ability in picking a president usually doesn't go over well.

This is one election in which the choice of lesser evils is painfully obvious.

[garak]

You really think Bush will refuse to cede power and try to take over the government? You're really capable of taking that seriously?
Yes. Of course it would appear to be an "emergency" where the military would be brought in for "help."

I never thought the Bush years would be as amazingly horrible as they have been. I don't underestimate those people.


Remember this is the woman who was possessed by the ghost of a 13 year old boy and personally met Jesus. I mean, consider her previous predictions.
1. This is ad hominem and thus irrelevant
2. Most Americans are religious kooks. If you only listened to people who lack crazy superstitions, you'd be pretty lonely.

[kble]

"Americans unite! We're in crisis mode! Arrest and seize computers! Higher patriotism! Your country needs you!...Buy my book!"

Ah, yes, go out and play in that battlefield you so loathe.

[Anonymous]

I asked a family member in the service about it, his response was "I can't talk about that" :mellow:

If there were a list of reasons to join the military, telling people "I can't talk about that" would definitely be up there.

[kuranes]

Any relation to Naomi Klein ? http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=24690&highlight=Naomi

[kendoiwan]

Yes. Of course it would appear to be an "emergency" where the military would be brought in for "help."

I never thought the Bush years would be as amazingly horrible as they have been. I don't underestimate those people.


1. This is ad hominem and thus irrelevant
2. Most Americans are religious kooks. If you only listened to people who lack crazy superstitions, you'd be pretty lonely.

pwnage:joft:

[garak]

Any relation to Naomi Klein ? http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=24690&highlight=Naomi

Weird.. I was remembering them as being the same person until you pointed that out. (I'm only vaguely familiar with either one)

[purveyor of truth]

To me it seems the only point to economy manipulation would be syphoning off money and power grabbing through fear mongering. Still in the grand scheme one would want a productive economy to rape. So if this is whats going on the economy wont tank, we'll just lose more of our rights and worth. The value of the individual will go down, less of a mighty american. A different form of slavery.

[Oso Mocoso]

Yes. Of course it would appear to be an "emergency" where the military would be brought in for "help."

I never thought the Bush years would be as amazingly horrible as they have been. I don't underestimate those people.

No. I think you overestimate those people. They're even reviled by their own political party at this point. Their legacy is circling the drain on its way down the toilet. Bush is in the running against Buchanan for the most shameful American presidency ever, and you're worried that he's going to take over the joint.


1. This is ad hominem and thus irrelevant

Ha ha, you listen to a lady who has been possessed by a ghost and talks to Jesus and then you say it's an ad hominem argument when I point out how she constantly spouts nonsensical gibberish but you like the gibberish she's spouting today.


2. Most Americans are religious kooks. If you only listened to people who lack crazy superstitions, you'd be pretty lonely.

LOL! Most Americans are not religious kooks in the sense that your Jesus talking ghost lady is. Maybe you should look more into her track record.

Also, I'd like to point out that against your other worries, Christian theology seems downright plausible. Magical rib woman who takes a forbidden apple from a talking snake? Why not?

[Chunes]

I think it's pretty silly to argue over a speculation.

No one knows what will happen. No one. I think we all agree on this point. The only difference is to what extent we predict an outcome will happen. So seeing as we are all martial-law-in-America-agnostics, let's all hold hands and sing.

[purveyor of truth]

I think it's pretty silly to argue over a speculation


WARNING! WARNING! INTRUDER ALERT! OBVIOUS NON INTP ON SITE!

[Chunes]

You're forgetting it's a common INTP trait to argue points of view you don't hold. ;)

Also when I said "argue," I wasn't refering to reasoned discourse, I was refering to the ad-hominems.

[purveyor of truth]

You're forgetting it's a common INTP trait to argue points of view you don't hold. ;)

You're not argueing the point of view, you are saying its silly to argue.

[kuranes]

Weird.. I was remembering them as being the same person until you pointed that out. (I'm only vaguely familiar with either one)
Maybe she got married.




Ha ha, you listen to a lady who has been possessed by a ghost and talks to Jesus

What is your source that she's done this ? Links ? I'm not disputing that, if true, what you've brought up would change her credibility for me. Her voice/opinion, as she reminds us in the movie, is not the only thing involved, however. Some of the things she points out have nothing to do with her "private visions/convictions" but with pointing out facts that we can verify independently and/or connecting the dots between those facts.

[Chunes]

You're not argueing the point of view, you are saying its silly to argue.

Yeah it's silly to argue with personal attacks, not debate and explore.

[garak]

No. I think you overestimate those people. They're even reviled by their own political party at this point. Their legacy is circling the drain on its way down the toilet. Bush is in the running against Buchanan for the most shameful American presidency ever, and you're worried that he's going to take over the joint.
Reviled, yet still able to push congress around.


Ha ha, you listen to a lady who has been possessed by a ghost and talks to Jesus and then you say it's an ad hominem argument when I point out how she constantly spouts nonsensical gibberish but you like the gibberish she's spouting today.
The point was that it's not gibberish. It's speculation that is congruent with history. If I felt it were gibberish, I would not have posted it. I thought it was interesting and quite plausible. Learn to separate the message and the messenger.


LOL! Most Americans are not religious kooks in the sense that your Jesus talking ghost lady is. Maybe you should look more into her track record.

Also, I'd like to point out that against your other worries, Christian theology seems downright plausible. Magical rib woman who takes a forbidden apple from a talking snake? Why not?

Most Americans are Christians and Christian teachings are full of absurd things, as you point out. And while you are glib about the legitimate potential for some sort of government takeover in this country, not everyone is.

[purveyor of truth]

Yeah it's silly to argue with personal attacks, :ph34r: Is he gone yet?

[Oso Mocoso]

What is your source that she's done this ? Links ? I'm not disputing that, if true, what you've brought up would change her credibility for me. Her voice/opinion, as she reminds us in the movie, is not the only thing involved, however. Some of the things she points out have nothing to do with her "private visions/convictions" but with pointing out facts that we can verify independently and/or connecting the dots between those facts.

Here's her in one of her past brushes with the media.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2006/01/23/naomi_and_jesus/

She's engaging in some wild speculation. Her talking about how the U.S. is becoming more like a police state merits some consideration, but saying that a coup has already taken place is pretty much just left wing bed wetting.

[garak]

Here's her in one of her past brushes with the media.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2006/01/23/naomi_and_jesus/
I've already read that.


She's engaging in some wild speculation. Her talking about how the U.S. is becoming more like a police state merits some consideration, but saying that a coup has already taken place is pretty much just left wing bed wetting.
When the executive uses threats of martial law to intimidate the legislature, how far would you say that is from a coup?

Stop focusing on this woman that frankly no one gives a shit about except you.

[kuranes]

Here's her in one of her past brushes with the media.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2006/01/23/naomi_and_jesus/
Her talking about how the U.S. is becoming more like a police state merits some consideration
Hmmmm
* reads link and it verifies what Oso has said *
Fair enough. I guess we can both agree on the part of what we are at least seriously considering. She raises the question of how long we can continue to consider before we are the frog that was boiled by slow and steady incremental degrees, of course.

"Eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty" - Andrew Jackson
etc. etc.

[purveyor of truth]

I see your point Oso, and I'm not standing up for her but, I have encountered a LOT of christians who have no less crazy stories. Jesus came to my mother through the shower head for example. Oh bad example, my mother is completely nuts. *making notes to self*

[jyakulis]

meh I think they'll pass the powers along to the next puppet. they need someone to restore faith in the system like an Obama.

though I recognize how the neocons (pearle, rumsfeld, cheyney) lust for power. only way i see them declaring martial law is if coupled with the economic crisis; they stage another a terror attack. which frankly freaks me out a little bit because i remember reading a good many articles awhile back how some of our nuclear warheads were missing. i mean seriously how do you lose a fucking nuclear warhead.

[Karl]

I've already read that.


When the executive uses threats of martial law to intimidate the legislature, how far would you say that is from a coup?

Stop focusing on this woman that frankly no one gives a shit about except you.

I give a shit about Naomi Wolf although I'm not very familiar with her yet. But certainly, I'm willing to give a shit.

[garak]

i mean seriously how do you lose a fucking nuclear warhead.

Same way you lose $2 trillion and announce it on September 10th 2001 (http://benfrank.net/patriots/news/national/pentagon_missing_trillions).

[garak]

I give a shit about Naomi Wolf although I'm not very familiar with her yet. But certainly, I'm willing to give a shit.

Whatever. This thread is about the consolidation of power within the executive branch. Her appearance is incidental. Character assassination is just derailing this thread in a completely useless way.

[kuranes]

Same way you lose $2 trillion and announce it on September 10th 2001 (http://benfrank.net/patriots/news/national/pentagon_missing_trillions).
Reminds me of some other old threads.
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=16554&highlight=Follow+The+Money

[kendoiwan]

I've already read that.


When the executive uses threats of martial law to intimidate the legislature, how far would you say that is from a coup?

Stop focusing on this woman that frankly no one gives a shit about except you.

Mack is on a pwnage roll:joft:

[kendoiwan]

Whatever. This thread is about the consolidation of power within the executive branch. Her appearance is incidental. Character assassination is just derailing this thread in a completely useless way.

As I was saying I have a family member who's a Major in the Army and his response to such things is normally "That's Bullshit!" This was "I can't talk about that" Big difference.

[Nighthawk]

Posting federal troops on U.S. soil for law enforcement is a violation of the Posse Commitatus Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act). It was hammered into me as an army officer, that I was to refuse any order that would violate this act. I wonder if they still teach that? I also wonder how they've managed to warp and pervert this principle too. Patriot Act comes to mind.

[kendoiwan]

Posting federal troops on U.S. soil for law enforcement is a violation of the Posse Commitatus Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act). It was hammered into me as an army officer, that I was to refuse any order that would violate this act. I wonder if they still teach that? I also wonder how they've managed to warp and pervert this principle too. Patriot Act comes to mind.

I'll ask the Major, see what kind of answer I can get out of him...

[garak]

Posting federal troops on U.S. soil for law enforcement is a violation of the Posse Commitatus Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act). It was hammered into me as an army officer, that I was to refuse any order that would violate this act. I wonder if they still teach that? I also wonder how they've managed to warp and pervert this principle too. Patriot Act comes to mind.

Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita called Posse Comitatus a "very archaic" statute that hampers the president's ability to respond to a crisis.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5115

Also see this section of the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act#Recent_legislative_events

[kuranes]

On the other hand -
We might have to at least also consider giving the police "military-type" weapons, however, with certain parameters applied to such giving and use; as we are now facing transnational gangs that are beginning to migrate North into Southern border states like African killer bees. The guys in charge in Mexico seem a little overwhelmed, as far as recent developments. The police can't fight them with just .38's and shotguns.

[kendoiwan]

On the other hand -
We might have to at least also consider giving the police "military-type" weapons, however, with certain parameters applied to such giving and use; as we are now facing transnational gangs that are beginning to migrate North into Southern border states like African killer bees. The guys in charge in Mexico seem a little overwhelmed, as far as recent developments. The police can't fight them with just .38's and shotguns.

l7B4laX1E70

[garak]

On the other hand -
We might have to at least also consider giving the police "military-type" weapons, however, with certain parameters applied to such giving and use; as we are now facing transnational gangs that are beginning to migrate North into Southern border states like African killer bees. The guys in charge in Mexico seem a little overwhelmed, as far as recent developments. The police can't fight them with just .38's and shotguns.

I thought police already have access to military-style equipment?

I'm suspicious of any "need" to give authorities more power. The government is constantly coming up with (often bullshit) reasons why we should be afraid and just give them more power to fight the bad guys (oh, and that power can also be used to subdue us... but just don't worry about that, they'd never do that).

[purveyor of truth]

What what? We are under martial law?

[kendoiwan]

jYxTzDFofZQ

[purveyor of truth]

Holy fuck! Have I been living under a rock or what.

[kuranes]

I thought police already have access to military-style equipment?

I'm suspicious of any "need" to give authorities more power. The government is constantly coming up with (often bullshit) reasons why we should be afraid and just give them more power to fight the bad guys (oh, and that power can also be used to subdue us... but just don't worry about that, they'd never do that).
I hear ya bro.

I admit I'm not sure how much military equipment the cops can get ahold of, especially on short notice. Theoretically some of them can even get the use of fully automatic shotguns. A shotgun machine gun in other words. But I've never heard of one of them being used.... for a "riot", which is what they were created for, supposedly.

When there was that big shootout in California with bank robbers wearing armor, a few years ago, the cops were supposedly totally outgunned. ( They eventually killed the robbers through sheer numbers and maybe some luck, but that's neither here nor there. )

Of course, if they'd let us citizens be vigilantes with our own guns then it would be a moot point about the cops.....heh. :)

I know there are a lot of excuses ladled out as justifications, but the stories I hear about the stuff going down on the border towns right now seem very real and pretty nasty.

[garak]

Holy fuck! Have I been living under a rock or what.

Unfortunately most people are under a pile of boulders.

[purveyor of truth]

Uh, I googled martial law, its a little scary people.

[Nighthawk]

Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita called Posse Comitatus a "very archaic" statute that hampers the president's ability to respond to a crisis.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5115

Also see this section of the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act#Recent_legislative_events

That explains a lot. Just one more nail in the coffin.

[kuranes]

Uh, I googled martial law, its a little scary people.
So are we under it now ? I thought it was going to be declared if the bill didn't pass, which it did pass. Not that this is comforting, but....

I've heard nothing of curfews etc. in other words.

[OrionzRevenge]

I knew nothing of this Naomi Wolf before today, yet I agreed with Oso’s initial observation. (Before learning about her other 15 minutes of fame.)

Look, we DO face a daunting situation on the economic front. This WOULD be a great time for some terrorist elements to launch a destabilizing attack(s). Bush, and others ARE mindful of what a nation-wide Katrina melt-down would mean.

If Kendoiwan’s Major relation says it’s not an open topic… Well, it stands to reason. (just like the Seaman from the SSN North Carolina nearly tripped back-pedaling away from me when I asked about passive sonar)

It is not at all unreasonable to assume our military is on stand-by for said reasons.

Is Martial Law a bad thing????

I recall the tearful black man who survived Katrina and said he felt his country had forgotten him till he saw the trucks pull up with National Guard members aboard.

George Washington had to put down the whiskey rebellion; Macarthur ran the war bonus protesters out of D.C. There where Naomi’s protesting the end of liberty at those times.
…We Survive.

I did agree with Ms. Wolf’s declaration that Americans enjoy the rule of law.
We have a constitutional instrument to use the courts and the congress to remove a tyrant president, and have thrice made use of at least the threat of said instrument to do just that.

Now, I think Bush is a buffoon, but if any mob were to try to arrest him and his cabinet. I would wish to guard the door.

[pan_sonic_000]

Hold up. Are we under martial law as of this post?

[kble]

There appears to be only one video and it's taken out of context, I wouldn't panic just yet.

[purveyor of truth]

Under martial law I think the government can control the media, we need to figure this out.

[kuranes]

There appears to be only one video and it's taken out of context, I wouldn't panic just yet.
:)
* rounds up villagers and passes out torches preparatory to a march on Castle Frankenstein *

[Oso Mocoso]

When the executive uses threats of martial law to intimidate the legislature, how far would you say that is from a coup?

Having traveled in a country while it actually experienced a real coup, I'd say threatening to declare martial law if legislature didn't rubber stamp your law is quite a bit different. Nobody got shot, just to throw out an example. I think this is a good illustration of how little political capital Bush has left. And he's used to getting his way so he's throwing a tantrum about it. Regardless of who gets elected next, we'll be better off without Bush.


Stop focusing on this woman that frankly no one gives a shit about except you.

Umm ... Mackistan, you're the one that threw her out there. She's the nutjob calling this a coup. Her and Amy Goodman lack any level of credibility as sources for anything.


Hmmmm
* reads link and it verifies what Oso has said *
Fair enough. I guess we can both agree on the part of what we are at least seriously considering. She raises the question of how long we can continue to consider before we are the frog that was boiled by slow and steady incremental degrees, of course.

Oh, we're definitely creeping towards a police state. And little kids are getting trained to live in one. The security theater bullshit we have to put up with at airports is a perfect example. Little kids think that's normal. The DHS're even fingerprinting foreigners who want to travel here now.

[kendoiwan]

There appears to be only one video and it's taken out of context, I wouldn't panic just yet.


jYxTzDFofZQ

ummm

[jyakulis]

(oh, and that power can also be used to subdue us... but just don't worry about that, they'd never do that).

ohh hogwash, the government would never want to hurt us. they love you. i mean sure the state is the biggest cause of unnatural death in the past century but they'd never hurt you. now just turn in all your guns and walk into this cattle car.

i mean what happened to this country. it use to be all about religiously distrusting the government and greedily guarding our liberties. hopefully, we eventually move back to that.

[kendoiwan]

Umm ... Mackistan, you're the one that threw her out there. She's the nutjob calling this a coup. Her and Amy Goodman lack any level of credibility as sources for anything.


You called him Mackistan good one, you're still running a pwnage deficit... You can bash Amy Goodman all you like she cites the Army Times as her source...

[Ivy]

As I understand this, congressional martial law is a different beast entirely. It's a way to speed up the approval process for a bill and they're trying to use it to usher in the bailout. It has nothing to do with the country being put under martial law.

[kble]

ummm

She doesn't say anything about being under martial law, just about the military unit being deployed in the States.

[purveyor of truth]

Somehow I forgot that New Orleans was under martial law after hurricane Katrina, if we are not right now it is coming.

[jyakulis]

Under martial law I think the government can control the media, we need to figure this out.


they already have cia plants in the media. it was admitted in the msm awhile back that a significant amount of people were on cia payroll to sell the war to us. that aside they can seize a lot more than just the media under martial law.

Executive Order Number 12148 created the Federal Emergency Management Agency that is to interface with the Department of Defense for civil defense planning and funding. An "emergency czar" was appointed. FEMA has only spent about 6 percent of its budget on national emergencies. The bulk of their funding has been used for the construction of secret underground facilities to assure continuity of government in case of a major emergency, foreign or domestic.

Executive Order Number 12656 appointed the National Security Council as the principal body that should consider emergency powers. This allows the government to increase domestic intelligence and surveillance of U.S. citizens and would restrict the freedom of movement within the United States and grant the government the right to isolate large groups of civilians. The National Guard could be federalized to seal all borders and take control of U.S. air space and all ports of entry. Here are just a few Executive Orders associated with FEMA that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years and could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen:

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation.

[kendoiwan]

Posting federal troops on U.S. soil for law enforcement is a violation of the Posse Commitatus Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act). It was hammered into me as an army officer, that I was to refuse any order that would violate this act. I wonder if they still teach that? I also wonder how they've managed to warp and pervert this principle too. Patriot Act comes to mind.


Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita called Posse Comitatus a "very archaic" statute that hampers the president's ability to respond to a crisis.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5115

Also see this section of the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act#Recent_legislative_events


She doesn't say anything about being under martial law, just about the military unit being deployed in the States.


:happpy: Use that Ne thingy, oops you don't have one... Pwned :joft:

[purveyor of truth]

If the dow slips another 1000 points this week I guess we'll find out wont we.

[kendoiwan]

If the dow slips another 1000 points this week I guess we'll find out wont we.

I'll be in Ethiopia by that time anyway... Worse comes to worse, see you later suckers:banana:

[kble]

:happpy: Use that Ne thingy, oops you don't have one... Pwned :joft:

Yes, yes that's exactly what I am.

[purveyor of truth]

I'll be in Ethiopia by that time anyway... Worse comes to worse, see you later suckers:banana:

:sadbanana: Bitch

[kuranes]

As I understand this, congressional martial law is a different beast entirely. It's a way to speed up the approval process for a bill and they're trying to use it to usher in the bailout. It has nothing to do with the country being put under martial law.
Ah.

On another note -

The original debate that could have taken place, on the idea of regulators of credit default swaps, was also rushed, because it was a huge bill presented at the last minute. It was postulated that the transactions were too complicated for government types to understand, and not available to anyone but institutions anyway. They voted not to regulate it - during the Clinton administration. Phil Gramm was also involved. ( Credit default swaps were one of the things that caused the meltdown. ) As someone in one of the vids pointed out, it would have been nice if we could have seen what was being voted on this time around ( posted on the net ) for at least 24 hours.

It seemed ridiculous then and now to think that no one in government is savvy enough to understand the financial "instruments" for which they are assumed to be the bottom line.

So....now they will attempt to "assign a value" to these properties that they have bought. There was another proposal that the government get more than just ownership of these questionable assets, but also have a stake ( like preferred stock ) in the banks and corporations themselves, but some objected to this as "socialism".

[jyakulis]

First off about the military, most likely our boys won't turn against us. But that doesn't mean some foreign soldiers won't shoot us up. You don't think a private mercenary group like blackwater wouldn't or some UN "peacekeepers". or what about some of these guys: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6361281.stm

You guys familiar with pdd51?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

NATIONAL SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE/NSPD 51

HOMELAND SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE/HSPD-20

Subject: National Continuity Policy

Purpose

(1) This directive establishes a comprehensive national policy on the continuity of Federal Government structures and operations and a single National Continuity Coordinator responsible for coordinating the development and implementation of Federal continuity policies. This policy establishes "National Essential Functions," prescribes continuity requirements for all executive departments and agencies, and provides guidance for State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector organizations in order to ensure a comprehensive and integrated national continuity program that will enhance the credibility of our national security posture and enable a more rapid and effective response to and recovery from a national emergency.

Definitions

(2) In this directive:

(a) "Category" refers to the categories of executive departments and agencies listed in Annex A to this directive;

(b) "Catastrophic Emergency" means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions;

(c) "Continuity of Government," or "COG," means a coordinated effort within the Federal Government's executive branch to ensure that National Essential Functions continue to be performed during a Catastrophic Emergency;

(d) "Continuity of Operations," or "COOP," means an effort within individual executive departments and agencies to ensure that Primary Mission-Essential Functions continue to be performed during a wide range of emergencies, including localized acts of nature, accidents, and technological or attack-related emergencies;

(e) "Enduring Constitutional Government," or "ECG," means a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President, as a matter of comity with respect to the legislative and judicial branches and with proper respect for the constitutional separation of powers among the branches, to preserve the constitutional framework under which the Nation is governed and the capability of all three branches of government to execute constitutional responsibilities and provide for orderly succession, appropriate transition of leadership, and interoperability and support of the National Essential Functions during a catastrophic emergency;

(f) "Executive Departments and Agencies" means the executive departments enumerated in 5 U.S.C. 101, independent establishments as defined by 5 U.S.C. 104(1), Government corporations as defined by 5 U.S.C. 103(1), and the United States Postal Service;

(g) "Government Functions" means the collective functions of the heads of executive departments and agencies as defined by statute, regulation, presidential direction, or other legal authority, and the functions of the legislative and judicial branches;

(h) "National Essential Functions," or "NEFs," means that subset of Government Functions that are necessary to lead and sustain the Nation during a catastrophic emergency and that, therefore, must be supported through COOP and COG capabilities; and

(i) "Primary Mission Essential Functions," or "PMEFs," means those Government Functions that must be performed in order to support or implement the performance of NEFs before, during, and in the aftermath of an emergency.

Policy

(3) It is the policy of the United States to maintain a comprehensive and effective continuity capability composed of Continuity of Operations and Continuity of Government programs in order to ensure the preservation of our form of government under the Constitution and the continuing performance of National Essential Functions under all conditions.

Implementation Actions

(4) Continuity requirements shall be incorporated into daily operations of all executive departments and agencies. As a result of the asymmetric threat environment, adequate warning of potential emergencies that could pose a significant risk to the homeland might not be available, and therefore all continuity planning shall be based on the assumption that no such warning will be received. Emphasis will be placed upon geographic dispersion of leadership, staff, and infrastructure in order to increase survivability and maintain uninterrupted Government Functions. Risk management principles shall be applied to ensure that appropriate operational readiness decisions are based on the probability of an attack or other incident and its consequences.

(5) The following NEFs are the foundation for all continuity programs and capabilities and represent the overarching responsibilities of the Federal Government to lead and sustain the Nation during a crisis, and therefore sustaining the following NEFs shall be the primary focus of the Federal Government leadership during and in the aftermath of an emergency that adversely affects the performance of Government Functions:

(a) Ensuring the continued functioning of our form of government under the Constitution, including the functioning of the three separate branches of government;

(b) Providing leadership visible to the Nation and the world and maintaining the trust and confidence of the American people;

(c) Defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and preventing or interdicting attacks against the United States or its people, property, or interests;

(d) Maintaining and fostering effective relationships with foreign nations;

(e) Protecting against threats to the homeland and bringing to justice perpetrators of crimes or attacks against the United States or its people, property, or interests;

(f) Providing rapid and effective response to and recovery from the domestic consequences of an attack or other incident;

(g) Protecting and stabilizing the Nation's economy and ensuring public confidence in its financial systems; and

(h) Providing for critical Federal Government services that address the national health, safety, and welfare needs of the United States.

(6) The President shall lead the activities of the Federal Government for ensuring constitutional government. In order to advise and assist the President in that function, the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism (APHS/CT) is hereby designated as the National Continuity Coordinator. The National Continuity Coordinator, in coordination with the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs (APNSA), without exercising directive authority, shall coordinate the development and implementation of continuity policy for executive departments and agencies. The Continuity Policy Coordination Committee (CPCC), chaired by a Senior Director from the Homeland Security Council staff, designated by the National Continuity Coordinator, shall be the main day-to-day forum for such policy coordination.

(7) For continuity purposes, each executive department and agency is assigned to a category in accordance with the nature and characteristics of its national security roles and responsibilities in support of the Federal Government's ability to sustain the NEFs. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall serve as the President's lead agent for coordinating overall continuity operations and activities of executive departments and agencies, and in such role shall perform the responsibilities set forth for the Secretary in sections 10 and 16 of this directive.

(8) The National Continuity Coordinator, in consultation with the heads of appropriate executive departments and agencies, will lead the development of a National Continuity Implementation Plan (Plan), which shall include prioritized goals and objectives, a concept of operations, performance metrics by which to measure continuity readiness, procedures for continuity and incident management activities, and clear direction to executive department and agency continuity coordinators, as well as guidance to promote interoperability of Federal Government continuity programs and procedures with State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate. The Plan shall be submitted to the President for approval not later than 90 days after the date of this directive.

(9) Recognizing that each branch of the Federal Government is responsible for its own continuity programs, an official designated by the Chief of Staff to the President shall ensure that the executive branch's COOP and COG policies in support of ECG efforts are appropriately coordinated with those of the legislative and judicial branches in order to ensure interoperability and allocate national assets efficiently to maintain a functioning Federal Government.

(10) Federal Government COOP, COG, and ECG plans and operations shall be appropriately integrated with the emergency plans and capabilities of State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate, in order to promote interoperability and to prevent redundancies and conflicting lines of authority. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall coordinate the integration of Federal continuity plans and operations with State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate, in order to provide for the delivery of essential services during an emergency.

(11) Continuity requirements for the Executive Office of the President (EOP) and executive departments and agencies shall include the following:

(a) The continuation of the performance of PMEFs during any emergency must be for a period up to 30 days or until normal operations can be resumed, and the capability to be fully operational at alternate sites as soon as possible after the occurrence of an emergency, but not later than 12 hours after COOP activation;

(b) Succession orders and pre-planned devolution of authorities that ensure the emergency delegation of authority must be planned and documented in advance in accordance with applicable law;

(c) Vital resources, facilities, and records must be safeguarded, and official access to them must be provided;

(d) Provision must be made for the acquisition of the resources necessary for continuity operations on an emergency basis;

(e) Provision must be made for the availability and redundancy of critical communications capabilities at alternate sites in order to support connectivity between and among key government leadership, internal elements, other executive departments and agencies, critical partners, and the public;

(f) Provision must be made for reconstitution capabilities that allow for recovery from a catastrophic emergency and resumption of normal operations; and

(g) Provision must be made for the identification, training, and preparedness of personnel capable of relocating to alternate facilities to support the continuation of the performance of PMEFs.

(12) In order to provide a coordinated response to escalating threat levels or actual emergencies, the Continuity of Government Readiness Conditions (COGCON) system establishes executive branch continuity program readiness levels, focusing on possible threats to the National Capital Region. The President will determine and issue the COGCON Level. Executive departments and agencies shall comply with the requirements and assigned responsibilities under the COGCON program. During COOP activation, executive departments and agencies shall report their readiness status to the Secretary of Homeland Security or the Secretary's designee.

(13) The Director of the Office of Management and Budget shall:

(a) Conduct an annual assessment of executive department and agency continuity funding requests and performance data that are submitted by executive departments and agencies as part of the annual budget request process, in order to monitor progress in the implementation of the Plan and the execution of continuity budgets;

(b) In coordination with the National Continuity Coordinator, issue annual continuity planning guidance for the development of continuity budget requests; and

(c) Ensure that heads of executive departments and agencies prioritize budget resources for continuity capabilities, consistent with this directive.

(14) The Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy shall:

(a) Define and issue minimum requirements for continuity communications for executive departments and agencies, in consultation with the APHS/CT, the APNSA, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget, and the Chief of Staff to the President;

(b) Establish requirements for, and monitor the development, implementation, and maintenance of, a comprehensive communications architecture to integrate continuity components, in consultation with the APHS/CT, the APNSA, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget, and the Chief of Staff to the President; and

(c) Review quarterly and annual assessments of continuity communications capabilities, as prepared pursuant to section 16(d) of this directive or otherwise, and report the results and recommended remedial actions to the National Continuity Coordinator.

(15) An official designated by the Chief of Staff to the President shall:

(a) Advise the President, the Chief of Staff to the President, the APHS/CT, and the APNSA on COGCON operational execution options; and

(b) Consult with the Secretary of Homeland Security in order to ensure synchronization and integration of continuity activities among the four categories of executive departments and agencies.

(16) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall:

(a) Coordinate the implementation, execution, and assessment of continuity operations and activities;

(b) Develop and promulgate Federal Continuity Directives in order to establish continuity planning requirements for executive departments and agencies;

(c) Conduct biennial assessments of individual department and agency continuity capabilities as prescribed by the Plan and report the results to the President through the APHS/CT;

(d) Conduct quarterly and annual assessments of continuity communications capabilities in consultation with an official designated by the Chief of Staff to the President;

(e) Develop, lead, and conduct a Federal continuity training and exercise program, which shall be incorporated into the National Exercise Program developed pursuant to Homeland Security Presidential Directive-8 of December 17, 2003 ("National Preparedness"), in consultation with an official designated by the Chief of Staff to the President;

(f) Develop and promulgate continuity planning guidance to State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector critical infrastructure owners and operators;

(g) Make available continuity planning and exercise funding, in the form of grants as provided by law, to State, local, territorial, and tribal governments, and private sector critical infrastructure owners and operators; and

(h) As Executive Agent of the National Communications System, develop, implement, and maintain a comprehensive continuity communications architecture.

(17) The Director of National Intelligence, in coordination with the Attorney General and the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall produce a biennial assessment of the foreign and domestic threats to the Nation's continuity of government.

(18) The Secretary of Defense, in coordination with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall provide secure, integrated, Continuity of Government communications to the President, the Vice President, and, at a minimum, Category I executive departments and agencies.

(19) Heads of executive departments and agencies shall execute their respective department or agency COOP plans in response to a localized emergency and shall:

(a) Appoint a senior accountable official, at the Assistant Secretary level, as the Continuity Coordinator for the department or agency;

(b) Identify and submit to the National Continuity Coordinator the list of PMEFs for the department or agency and develop continuity plans in support of the NEFs and the continuation of essential functions under all conditions;

(c) Plan, program, and budget for continuity capabilities consistent with this directive;

(d) Plan, conduct, and support annual tests and training, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, in order to evaluate program readiness and ensure adequacy and viability of continuity plans and communications systems; and

(e) Support other continuity requirements, as assigned by category, in accordance with the nature and characteristics of its national security roles and responsibilities

General Provisions

(20) This directive shall be implemented in a manner that is consistent with, and facilitates effective implementation of, provisions of the Constitution concerning succession to the Presidency or the exercise of its powers, and the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 (3 U.S.C. 19), with consultation of the Vice President and, as appropriate, others involved. Heads of executive departments and agencies shall ensure that appropriate support is available to the Vice President and others involved as necessary to be prepared at all times to implement those provisions.

(21) This directive:

(a) Shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and the authorities of agencies, or heads of agencies, vested by law, and subject to the availability of appropriations;

(b) Shall not be construed to impair or otherwise affect (i) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budget, administrative, and legislative proposals, or (ii) the authority of the Secretary of Defense over the Department of Defense, including the chain of command for military forces from the President, to the Secretary of Defense, to the commander of military forces, or military command and control procedures; and

(c) Is not intended to, and does not, create any rights or benefits, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by a party against the United States, its agencies, instrumentalities, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

(22) Revocation. Presidential Decision Directive 67 of October 21, 1998 ("Enduring Constitutional Government and Continuity of Government Operations"), including all Annexes thereto, is hereby revoked.

(23) Annex A and the classified Continuity Annexes, attached hereto, are hereby incorporated into and made a part of this directive.

(24) Security. This directive and the information contained herein shall be protected from unauthorized disclosure, provided that, except for Annex A, the Annexes attached to this directive are classified and shall be accorded appropriate handling, consistent with applicable Executive Orders.

GEORGE W. BUSH

[kendoiwan]

Yes, yes that's exactly what I am.

Know your role and shut your mouth candy ass:joft: We forsee the crisis, you come up with the contengcy plans to save our asses:highfive:

[kendoiwan]

:sadbanana: Bitch

Don't hate the traveller hate the plane:banana:

[kble]

Know your role and shut your mouth candy ass:joft: We forsee the crisis, you come up with the contengcy plans to save our asses:highfive:

We foresee too...but it's the level-headed kind that comes without paranoia. :highfive:

[eyebyte_atWork]

Interesting times we live in.

It does not seem like there is an immediate threat in as much as chess pieces being set up for the future part of the game.

Not this President - maybe the next (or the one after him) will use the new powers afforded in recent times.

Any pattern of powers enacted that violate the constitution should be a big concern - even if no one is actually threatening to use them. If they have the power - they may one day.

[kendoiwan]

We foresee too...but it's the level-headed kind that comes without paranoia. :highfive:

Pffft. Level-headedness without paranoia. Who needs that? Btw. Did I tell you the one about the intj who convinced himself his closest friends were plotting against him... :highfive:

[kendoiwan]

Interesting times we live in.

It does not seem like there is an immediate threat in as much as chess pieces being set up for the future part of the game.

Not this President - maybe the next (or the one after him) will use the new powers afforded in recent times.

Any pattern of powers enacted that violate the constitution should be a big concern - even if no one is actually threatening to use them. If they have the power - they may one day.

Why'd you have to go and post, I was in the middle of intj pwnage...:sadbanana: Thanks for ruining my life byte!!!

[kuranes]

Pffft. Level-headedness without paranoia. Who needs that? Btw. Did I tell you the one about the intj who convinced himself his closest friends were plotting against him... :highfive:
Did you hear the one about the Ethiopian chicken ?

Fastest thing on two legs. Gotta be.

[garak]

It seemed ridiculous then and now to think that no one in government is savvy enough to understand the financial "instruments" for which they are assumed to be the bottom line.

It doesn't seem ridiculous. The financial institutions weren't even able to understand them -- which is why they caused such harm.

[purveyor of truth]

Not this President - maybe the next (or the one after him) will use the new powers afforded in recent times.

If this is true, then I predict McCain will win.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Just saying

[eyebyte_atWork]

If this is true, then I predict McCain will win.

Does not matter who wins.

Not in the slightest.

[jyakulis]

QMBZDwf9dok

[purveyor of truth]

Does not matter who wins.

Not in the slightest.

I think it would affect it in degrees of severity.

[kendoiwan]

Does not matter who wins.

Not in the slightest.

I can't agree with that anymore, there's no way shit would be THIS fucked up if Gore was pres...

[Oso Mocoso]

You can bash Amy Goodman all you like she cites the Army Times as her source...

Yes, but what she cites them for is not related to Naomi Wolf's claim of a coup. She reports that a military unit has been placed on permanent duty under Northern Command. They're being trained in non-lethal ways of stopping people in case they need to be assigned crowd control duties during an emergency.

The conclusions Goodman and Wolf want to draw smack of alarmism and the slippery slope fallacy. It's true that in order for there to be a military coup, there'd need to be military deployed inside the country. However, just because a military unit is being placed on duty in the country it doesn't logically follow that a coup has taken place.


As I understand this, congressional martial law is a different beast entirely. It's a way to speed up the approval process for a bill and they're trying to use it to usher in the bailout. It has nothing to do with the country being put under martial law.

Right. It means they have to shut up and vote yes or no. But if you want to fear monger, it'll attract eyeballs if you conflate this with the fact that a military unit is being deployed in the U.S.

[purveyor of truth]

http://rules-republicans.house.gov/ShortTopics/Read.aspx?id=220 congressional martial law, phew sort of

[kendoiwan]

Posting federal troops on U.S. soil for law enforcement is a violation of the Posse Commitatus Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act). It was hammered into me as an army officer, that I was to refuse any order that would violate this act. I wonder if they still teach that? I also wonder how they've managed to warp and pervert this principle too. Patriot Act comes to mind.


Yes, but what she cites them for is not related to Naomi Wolf's claim of a coup. She reports that a military unit has been placed on permanent duty under Northern Command. They're being trained in non-lethal ways of stopping people in case they need to be assigned crowd control duties during an emergency.
The conclusions Goodman and Wolf want to draw smack of alarmism and the slippery slope fallacy. It's true that in order for there to be a military coup, there'd need to be military deployed inside the country. However, just because a military unit is being placed on duty in the country it doesn't logically follow that a coup has taken place.



Right. It means they have to shut up and vote yes or no. But if you want to fear monger, it'll attract eyeballs if you conflate this with the fact that a military unit is being deployed in the U.S.

So you see...

[jyakulis]

The conclusions Goodman and Wolf want to draw smack of alarmism and the slippery slope fallacy. It's true that in order for there to be a military coup, there'd need to be military deployed inside the country. However, just because a military unit is being placed on duty in the country it doesn't logically follow that a coup has taken place.



m68lUe40nXI

[lowtech redneck]

If I didn't know better, I'd assume emma peel has been posting under multiple names on this thread...I wonder if this conspiracy theory will take on Loose Change proportions over the next several months?

[Oso Mocoso]

So you see...

Ah ... the Posse Comitatus Act. It's about what they're doing, not where they are.


The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 16, 1878 after the end of Reconstruction. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement police or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states, their counties and municipal divisions) in the former Confederate states.

It's not illegal that they're stationed in the U.S. It would be illegal if they got involved in law enforcement. If they're helping rescue drowning people or shooting Canadian invaders it's not illegal or even all that inappropriate, in my opinion.

Read about NorthCom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Northern_Command

I'm not saying I'm wild about the idea of Northcom, but I dislike fear mongering in the media.

[kendoiwan]

Ah ... the Posse Comitatus Act. It's about what they're doing, not where they are.



It's not illegal that they're stationed in the U.S. It would be illegal if they got involved in law enforcement. If they're helping rescue drowning people or shooting Canadian invaders it's not illegal or even all that inappropriate, in my opinion.

Read about NorthCom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Northern_Command

I'm not saying I'm wild about the idea of Northcom, but I dislike fear mongering in the media.


How's that for a slippery slope

[Oso Mocoso]

How's that for a slippery slope

Is it your favorite logical fallacy? I'm more of a fan of the No True Scottsman.

[Karl]

About federal troops being illegal...

"Troops used under the order of the President of the United States pursuant to the Insurrection Act, as was the case during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots"

So they just have to say "Oh hey, insurrection" and they can get away with it.

[kuranes]

It doesn't seem ridiculous. The financial institutions weren't even able to understand them -- which is why they caused such harm.
If nobody could understand them then nobody should have gone forward with using them. That seems obvious now, after the fact, but if nobody really understood them back then either, then it would seem an easy decision then, too. My point was that the government should have some of its own financial experts, so that Wall Street can't say "you need to just stay out of this unless we need you to bail us out, because you don't understand what we do".

[kendoiwan]

If nobody could understand them then nobody should have gone forward with using them. That seems obvious now, after the fact, but if nobody really understood them back then either, then it would seem an easy decision then, too. My point was that the government should have some of its own financial experts, so that Wall Street can't say "you need to just stay out of this unless we need you to bail us out, because you don't understand what we do".

Ummm... The Fed, Treasury, etc...

[kendoiwan]

Is it your favorite logical fallacy? I'm more of a fan of the No True Scottsman.

Oh like "Bush would never do that"?

[kuranes]

Ummm... The Fed, Treasury, etc...
Looks like they didn't understand them either. At least that was the argument that was made when the proposal to regulate credit default swaps was made, if you read that post of mine that started this particular exchange.

[kendoiwan]

Looks like they didn't understand them either. At least that was the argument that was made when the proposal to regulate credit default swaps was made, if you read that post of mine that started this particular exchange.

I'm just saying there were tons of people who were our so-called experts... to quote Cramer "THEY KNOW NOTHING!!!!!!"

[OrionzRevenge]

About federal troops being illegal...

"Troops used under the order of the President of the United States pursuant to the Insurrection Act, as was the case during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots"

So they just have to say "Oh hey, insurrection" and they can get away with it.

Yeah, I remember, the elder Bush ordered that. I recall hearing a lot of chatter about that being the end of liberty.

However, the only "Liberty" that was cutailed was the ability to stand over innocent people and hurl bricks at their heads.

Look, these powers need to be used in a prudent way. Yet, sometimes they must be considered for use.

:):):)

[2hype]

Ah ... the Posse Comitatus Act. It's about what they're doing, not where they are.



It's not illegal that they're stationed in the U.S. It would be illegal if they got involved in law enforcement. If they're helping rescue drowning people or shooting Canadian invaders it's not illegal or even all that inappropriate, in my opinion.


The article in the army times is scary enough, without any fear mongering by the media. It says they "may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control." That's a far cry from helping to rescue drowning people.

[jyakulis]

Oh like "Bush would never do that"?

aD3xfT0c99g


hahahaha...yeah he wouldn't do that hahahaha.

[Oso Mocoso]

Oh like "Bush would never do that"?

It's like "No Scottsman would ever wear that hat!"

"My cousin is a Scottsman, and he wears a hat like that."

"No TRUE Scottsman would ever wear that hat!"

It's one of those moving the goalpost fallacies that can make it tough to figure out what someone's argument actually is. The slippery slope fallacy is dumb for different reasons.

[kendoiwan]

The article in the army times is scary enough, without any fear mongering by the media. It says they "may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control." That's a far cry from helping to rescue drowning people.

:nono: Oso has spoken fool

[kuranes]

I'm just saying there were tons of people who were our so-called experts... to quote Cramer "THEY KNOW NOTHING!!!!!!"
In effect, it was agreed, on their behalf, by Congress, that they were not qualified to judge these complex products. That's what the bill was about. But that agreement partly came ( IMHO ) because the whole thing was presented as a document hundreds of pages long to be signed at the last minute before Congress disbanded. Sort of like this latest bill was. How many people have actually ever seen it ? One early version was set up so that the only "oversight" was just some buddies of Bush.

[kendoiwan]

In effect, it was agreed, on their behalf, by Congress, that they were not qualified to judge these complex products. That's what the bill was about. But that agreement partly came ( IMHO ) because the whole thing was presented as a document hundreds of pages long to be signed at the last minute before Congress disbanded. Sort of like this latest bill was. How many people have actually ever seen it ? One early version was set up so that the only "oversight" was just some buddies of Bush.

:stupid: they don't know we don't know, who knows?

[jyakulis]

:stupid: they don't know we don't know, who knows?

i think this guy knows. let's make him teh leader.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ee_1222915606

[kendoiwan]

i think this guy knows. let's make him teh leader.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ee_1222915606

:worthy:

But what will Oso think?

[kendoiwan]

HaG9d_4zij8

[MadamI'madaM]

Is Martial Law a bad thing????
If things go pear shaped, it was the fault of the people martial law will be protecting. Trust me, the only way to cure a violent insurrection is to show some civilians some dead bodies. You'd be lumped in lickety split just trying to loot some Cambell's Chunky. Why would a man of means even bother leaving the house or hanging around at all for that matter?


Now, I think Bush is a buffoon, but if any mob were to try to arrest him and his cabinet. I would wish to guard the door.
Okay, fringie fruitcakes making tall claims that are unrefutable by nature is one thing, but bush has shit all over this country and the world in cases of bold, undeniable truth. What's really sacred to you at bottom? Because it definitely is not to george bush.


In spite of all the kooky fonts, colors, and insane insinuations, this is by far the craziest shit you have ever posted.

[kendoiwan]

In spite of all the kooky fonts, colors, and insane insinuations, this is by far the craziest shit you have ever posted.

:popcorn:

That sounds personal.

[MadamI'madaM]

:popcorn:

That sounds personal.

Eh, I was really pissed about seeing both sides of the central issue.

He gave me two things that allowed release of tension through SJ robo-rage. (things I will never see any other way)

[OrionzRevenge]

If things go pear shaped, it was the fault of the people martial law will be protecting. Trust me, the only way to cure a violent insurrection is to show some civilians some dead bodies. You'd be lumped in lickety split just trying to loot some Cambell's Chunky. Why would a man of means even bother leaving the house or hanging around at all for that matter?


Okay, fringie fruitcakes making tall claims that are unrefutable by nature is one thing, but bush has shit all over this country and the world in cases of bold, undeniable truth. What's really sacred to you at bottom? Because it definitely is not to george bush.


In spite of all the kooky fonts, colors, and insane insinuations, this is by far the craziest shit you have ever posted.

Crazy,
Crazy to think that you love me.
Crazy to think you still care.

Oh Bli Di, Oh Bli Da

Ok, if you have finished pissing out your SJ stuff, can we talk?

A) The sending in the troops stuff was to reflect on how they have been used for CONSTRUCTIVE means since the 70s. …and
B) You seem to have an anti-bush fetish. That is to say, I made it clear I felt W was a fool. However, I would defend THE PESIDENCY from mob rule if called to do so.

XOXOXO
:) :) :)

[Curtis24]

Am I the only one who sees the prospect of America becoming a totalitarian dictatorship really cool and romantic? :p

[OrionzRevenge]

Additional thoughts on the subject matter being considered.

I was the first poster to add the economic woes, the home soil post-9/11 WAR and the ghost of Katrina to this discussion. Because not taking said into consideration here is like talking about post-WWII UFO sightings in the southwest void of consideration of the cold war military build-up / race.

Out of context a Yak could be made a Yeti!

One further bit of context, I mentioned the National Guard’s use after Katrina and Karl chimed in with their use in the 1992 LA riots.

One really HUGHE part of this to keep in mind is how in both events the local police totally failed… shit they fled. Shit you could go back and add Alabama to this list.

If calamity befalls this country, it will be the down-trodden who most long to see the grunts marching!
:):):)

[doob]

Any relation to Naomi Klein ? http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=24690&highlight=Naomi


jYxTzDFofZQ

Amy Goodman (Democracy Now) interviewed Naomi Klein today. Both exceptional people whose work I value.

http://www.democracynow.org/

[MadamI'madaM]

A)The sending in the troops stuff was to reflect on how they have been used for CONSTRUCTIVE means since the 70s. …and
Then why not bring back guardsmen instead? There's probably a clause allowing any armed government employee to "keep the peace" once shots are ringing out. It's about who these people are and aren't accountable to and the nature and breadth of their training.

Let me make some discrepancies within my stance on your "martial law, so what?" attitude (although I'm not entirely sold that it's gonna happen).

It is definitely true that under an honest case in which martial law is warranted, one has just as much if not more to fear from his neighbor as from the government goons. Only that the government goons are very busy protecting their bosses under a true insurrection, and collateral damage is basically treated with a cheeky tune played on the finger violin.

In a case in which martial law is unjustifiably or preemtively declared, it can be hard to know whether the pressure quelled the imminent flames or if it was all just a ruse to catalyze para-facism.


B)You seem to have an anti-bush fetish. That is to say, I made it clear I felt W was a fool. However, I would defend THE PRESIDENCY from mob rule if called to do so.
When people say things like this despite people like bush and his kind, it makes me think it's only because they were raised young to think a certain way about their country and their leaders. I find it hard to believe you'd accept similar disparity in a relationship with an SO or a party you'd directly hired.

I understand your belief that as worthless as it can be, rule of law is the only thing we have as citizens.

What if it takes a mob to justly enforce the law? (would never happen, though)

[OrionzRevenge]

/\/\/\ Really child, all this fuss over a few extra S's!!!!

Lets just hope none of this comes to pass, debate and refinement of our situation is whats needed. I applaud the OP for this thread.

The point about why not use JUST the gaurd, if it's a nation-wide Katrina type event, shit we'll hafta tell Iraq "best of Luck, bye bye!"

I know you called me nuts, and I have knack for not being cool about as much, however; you did say something kind to me once... so.

Take Care

[MadamI'madaM]

[stuff]

That last post was to clarify my position in a non-inflamed way, not to prolong conflict.

I have a bad habit of needlessly tacking barbs onto my responses out of misplaced emotion.

I couldn't honestly care about someone's choice of font, color, or delivery style.

[kuranes]

Amy Goodman (Democracy Now) interviewed Naomi Klein today. Both exceptional people whose work I value.


I still do not know if Naomi Wolf is also Naomi Klein.

[OrionzRevenge]

Further Observations Micro-cosmic to Macroscopic.

"We have nothing to fear, but fear itself!" FDR

The sorts of paranoia, rage, and fear expressed here are the sorts of things that can bring liberty asunder.

Last Week: McCain knew this, Obama knew this, The Senate Knew this, W knew this, and a fragile coalition in the house knew this. The nuts and bolts were not all that important. (Hell, most of FDR’s new deal was dismantled by the courts) They all knew they could tweak it later for a more perfect solution. Yet, a week of panic ran wild on Wall Street and Main Street…why???

The Biggest Monkey in this whole mess was Nancy Pelosi. She made political hay in the volatile House for the Dems at America’s expense.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I can't agree with that anymore, there's no way shit would be THIS fucked up if Gore was pres...

:)


Gore is not as cool as one would think.

A little investigation reveals some interesting self serving interests.

[Karl]

Here's what I think: Bush will step down. If McCain is needed to carry out these sorts of things, he'll be elected. If not, Obama will be elected. The ruling class is about more than individuals and letting everyone focus their anger onto Bush is a good way to confuse people. Edit: Also, about seeing Jesus, you can't dismiss everything someone says just because they're an NF.

Although apparently I might be an NF.

[ApeTheDog]

In the end what is happening, according to me, is a bunch of incestuous back-rubbing, still. The only way Bush can keep elections from happening is if he declares martial law. That would not fly, internationally.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Sorry people - The whole republican versus democrat thing is a contest between two groups of people that want to be in the favorable position to serve - not the country - but the true controllers of society. The special interest groups - but mainly international banking families. The points that the two parties argue are meant to keep us entertained - and to let us feel we have accomplished something - or were cheated of something. Both parties ultimately serve the same interests.

I want to give you all some examples of how they true agenda has been pushed through - but that would be a very lengthy post... here is the hint - with either party the international banking industry has always won.

[purveyor of truth]

Sorry people - The whole republican versus democrat thing is a contest between two groups of people that want to be in the favorable position to serve - not the country - but the true controllers of society. The special interest groups - but mainly international banking families. The points that the two parties argue are meant to keep us entertained - and to let us feel we have accomplished something - or were cheated of something. Both parties ultimately serve the same interests.

Assuming this is true, the powers that be surely wouldnt be micro-managers, having worked directly under some rather wealthy powerfull guys I would say the powers that be dont care about the details, just the results. So it does matter who gets elected somewhat.

In otherwords, do you want crappy middle management or good middle management.

[MountainHiker]

On the other hand -
We might have to at least also consider giving the police "military-type" weapons, however, with certain parameters applied to such giving and use; as we are now facing transnational gangs that are beginning to migrate North into Southern border states like African killer bees. The guys in charge in Mexico seem a little overwhelmed, as far as recent developments. The police can't fight them with just .38's and shotguns.

Isn't that what each state's National Guard is for? That way troops from each state will be dealing with its own citizens in such situations. At least that's how I always understood it. Oh, wait...they sent all of those National Guard guys over to Iraq and Afghanistan so they aren't here if needed. So, I guess we'll just have to forgo that annoying Posse Comitatus stuff in the Constitution, which is just a god damned piece of paper anyway.

I'm guessing that all rights, freedoms, private property and everything else we boast about in this country takes at least second seat, most likely lower, behind maintaining wealth and power in the hands of those who currently have it. Maintaining the current social strata will be the first and foremost priority of the government and the troops they might direct if things get tough. Just my cynical opinion of course.

[purveyor of truth]

Isn't that what each state's National Guard is for? That way troops from each state will be dealing with its own citizens in such situations. At least that's how I always understood it. Oh, wait...they sent all of those National Guard guys over to Iraq and Afghanistan so they aren't here if needed.

Maybe this wouldnt be so difficult to figure out, if one knew the possible hot spots in this country and checked the National Guard status thereof.

[C.J.Woolf]

There is a sort of precedent for this, when President Eisenhower sent the Army into some Southern cities to enforce desegregation. The local National Guard sure as hell wasn't going to do that.

[purveyor of truth]

There is a sort of precedent for this, when President Eisenhower sent the Army into some Southern cities to enforce desegregation. The local National Guard sure as hell wasn't going to do that.

This is why you need a very hungry desperate lower class, give them the military as a way out, and they will turn on their own people, loyalty to the hand that feeds them.

[jyakulis]

Sorry people - The whole republican versus democrat thing is a contest between two groups of people that want to be in the favorable position to serve - not the country - but the true controllers of society. The special interest groups - but mainly international banking families. The points that the two parties argue are meant to keep us entertained - and to let us feel we have accomplished something - or were cheated of something. Both parties ultimately serve the same interests.

I want to give you all some examples of how they true agenda has been pushed through - but that would be a very lengthy post... here is the hint - with either party the international banking industry has always won.

+1776

[purveyor of truth]

The dow is going down again today, my guess is it'll lose about 400-600 points this week, another 200-300 next week. Not a total market meltdown, just a nice healthy garden variety recession on the horizon. If you have a job, you might want to hang on to it.

[eyebyte_atWork]

The dow is going down again today, my guess is it'll lose about 400-600 points this week, another 200-300 next week. Not a total market meltdown, just a nice healthy garden variety recession on the horizon. If you have a job, you might want to hang on to it.

If you can.

[purveyor of truth]

If you can.

Exactly, my wife works at the courthouse, today she was notified of a meeting tommorow, the cuts are coming...

[purveyor of truth]

The dow fell another 500 points today, seems a bit of panic is setting in too. I wonder when full blown panic sets in.

[doob]

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/7/us_army_denies_unit_will_be

Is Posse Comitatus Dead?

US Troops on US Streets. In a barely noticed development, a US Army unit is now training for domestic operations under the control of US Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command. An initial news report in the Army Times newspaper last month noted that in addition to emergency response the force “may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control.” The military has since claimed the force will not be used for civil unrest, but questions remain. We speak to Army Col. Michael Boatner, future operations division chief of USNORTHCOM, and Matthew Rothschild, editor of The Progressive magazine.

[Ferrus]

Anyone read No Logo?

She clearly saw commerical structures as an immanent episteme.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I think she is over reactionary. (Yes I made up a new word -fuck it)

I think she is overreacting a bit - but not completely off the mark.

[purveyor of truth]

Hmm http://money.cnn.com/data/world_markets/ maybe the sky is falling

[purveyor of truth]

If I am right and the president in these modern times has simply been middle management in the grand scheme of things, it could be that Bush has fucked it up to the point of no return, we may have slipped permanently in world status.

[Eye-In-TiPi]

I think something might be happening in regard to this right now. Over the last hour or so, I've gotten a series of cryptic text messages from a friend of mine telling me something about a revolution starting and FEMA concentration camps. That, along with the Dow dropping like a stone today gives me some reason to wonder if there might be something to all this. I'm not saying the sky is falling, but I'm gonna really get worried if I see a lot of tanks and stuff on my way home.

[MadamI'madaM]

Fuck, I put off selling my shitty car for a gun to better market a shitbox with no AC in hell.
:stupid:

[/only half sarcastic]

[purveyor of truth]

I think something might be happening in regard to this right now. Over the last hour or so, I've gotten a series of cryptic text messages from a friend of mine telling me something about a revolution starting and FEMA concentration camps. That, along with the Dow dropping like a stone today gives me some reason to wonder if there might be something to all this. I'm not saying the sky is falling, but I'm gonna really get worried if I see a lot of tanks and stuff on my way home.

Obviously there is a point where this will happen, hard to figure out where that point is and if we'll slide down that far. I know I woke up at 4am this morning and was too worried to go back to sleep. I could have called myself paranoid except the dow fell another 678 points. We can do the math on this stuff and see at the current rate all hell breaks lose in a couple weeks.

[MountainHiker]

I have a good buddy who was in nearly all of the special forces at one point in his career. I'll ask him to probe around and see if his buddies who are still connected have heard anything. I do know that he's not trusted the government at all since Bush, Inc took over. I also know that he had a SHTF pack loaded for grabbing and running few years back. Looks like it's time to recheck his anxiety level. I'll post anything he has to say once I can get ahold of him.

[Eye-In-TiPi]

Got another cryptic text from my friend in reply to my asking him WTF was going on. I decrypted the message to read 'google america freedom to fascism.' Obviously, I found this: http://www.freedomtofascism.com/ , which led me to these:

http://www.restoretherepublic.com

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/fema.htm

Found some worrisome stuff. I hope I'm not 'black flagged' for posting this.

[garak]

Those sites have been viewed by countless people. None of this FEMA stuff is new -- it's been all over reddit for probably a year or two.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I think something might be happening in regard to this right now. Over the last hour or so, I've gotten a series of cryptic text messages from a friend of mine telling me something about a revolution starting and FEMA concentration camps. That, along with the Dow dropping like a stone today gives me some reason to wonder if there might be something to all this. I'm not saying the sky is falling, but I'm gonna really get worried if I see a lot of tanks and stuff on my way home.

The chess pieces are and have been laid down slowly enough as to not cause panic or suspicion. Slowly enough to discount any suspicion as nonsense.

The pieces are being place strategically - and are there.

[purveyor of truth]

Remember Waco? Thats when I woke up and smelled the coffee. Made me sick to my stomach.

[eyebyte_atWork]

The thing is that rational people discount paranoia by using the average experience they have seen and heard of. Problem is that it is often too short sighted. Given a long enough time line to consider - a number of atrocities can and will happen.

I do not think anything will happen too soon - but since the chess pieces are being moved strategically into alarming positions - I can see that there would be little to stop fascism in our lifetimes.

Recently there have been sweeps conducted to round up large groups of illegals and deport them. Who cares? They broke the law... which oddly enough few cared about 20 years ago - but in recent years has become a hot issue - most American's agree that immigration should be done legally and these people having broken the law have something coming to them. I submit this - that we care about this issue because it has been publicized a lot in recent years - THUS no one cares if they are practicing operations where humans get rounded up, detained, cataloged, and dealt with. I add - this may only be practice before taking on "Domestic Terrorists" - who can be anyone not going along with the government agenda.

Chess pieces, my friends, chess pieces.

[purveyor of truth]

The problem is, if the government had its hands full controlling us, it would lose huge power militarly worldwide. The only effective way to do it would be allied with another country, and who would that be? Only a handfull of countries are big enough to bother allying with.

[eyebyte_atWork]

The problem is, if the government had its hands full controlling us, it would lose huge power militarly worldwide. The only effective way to do it would be allied with another country, and who would that be? Only a handfull of countries are big enough to bother allying with.

Not sure this is the case ... the US controls interest in other countries through loans made to them. Controlling the US population can be done by controlling the belief system we have - to allow some of us to control the others.


Besides allies are not necessarily countries.

[purveyor of truth]

Not sure this is the case ... the US controls interest in other countries through loans made to them. Controlling the US population can be done by controlling the belief system we have - to allow some of us to control the others. Besides allies are not necessarily countries.

Its an ugly truth but... for example the people that live in the rocky mountains, no way to just roll over all these people, the terrain would be a serious problem. In the seventies there were survivalists, where I grew up is big time survivalists now. These are not people who roll over. As the crow flies, Randy Weaver lived 75 miles from where I grew up.

[MountainHiker]

The problem is, if the government had its hands full controlling us, it would lose huge power militarly worldwide. The only effective way to do it would be allied with another country, and who would that be? Only a handfull of countries are big enough to bother allying with.

I'm not sure if it would be the case here, but from what I remember about Tiananmen Square in China, they just crushed that one revolt. That set the example and everyone else fell in line. I don't remember hearing about outbreaks in other areas, but they also control their press and have a populous that is used to being told what to do.

So, I figure our government might only need to violently crush one or two uprising in a big media spectacle and most people will just fall in line. Besides, clamping down on a few power centers might be enough for them to keep thing running along as they desire.

Or, and I consider this scenario more likely, we will have another "terrorist" attack. They've already primed everyone with the idea that another attack on the scale of 911 will mean we have fewer freedoms, America will never be the same again, etc... If they do this a lot of the sheep are likely to willingly accept their shackles through fear alone. People might fight their government, but if some phony false flag terrorist event occurs people likely will see their slavery as one of their patriotic duties.

Hey, these are just my thoughts and ideas about this topic. I hope I'm wrong.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Its an ugly truth but... for example the people that live in the rocky mountains, no way to just roll over all these people, the terrain would be a serious problem. In the seventies there were survivalists.

True - they are the hold outs - and may be labeled domestic terrorist in the future. This means more funding to get rid of dangerous people.

[purveyor of truth]

True - they are the hold outs - and may be labeled domestic terrorist in the future. This means more funding to get rid of dangerous people.

They'll have a lot of fun doing it, because when I was 13 one of my buddies dad was teaching us how to build shallow bunkers that heat sensors couldnt pick up. Different kind of folks there.

[eyebyte_atWork]

They'll have a lot of fun doing it, because when I was 13 one of my buddies dad was teaching us how to build shallow bunkers that heat sensors couldnt pick up. Different kind of folks there.


Those are good skills to have - I need to learn some of that.

In case I ever get labeled a terrorist.

[purveyor of truth]

check this out; survivalistboards.com

[garak]

In case I ever get labeled a terrorist.

Consider it done!

[eyebyte_atWork]

check this out; survivalistboards.com

A friend mentioned that forum to me - an INFJ female I met last year. Her thing is to drop off the grid within the next couple of years.

I'll check it out. Get my invite and join the discussions.

EDIT: Different forum - but the same flavor.

[Sally]

Naomi Klein is predicting that infrastructure will be privatized in the near future (http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/6/naomi_klein).

It will be interesting to see how our economy/society is transformed by the ruling class... As long as dissent is ineffectual, I can't imagine them pursuing totalitarianism - too showy and costly. But on the other hand, if the current minority of people who are extremely distressed becomes a significant portion of the population...

[Curtis24]

Why is it I don't feel the least worried about social chaos erupting?

[MadamI'madaM]

Why is it I don't feel the least worried about social chaos erupting?

cuz yer dum

EDIT: But, seriously, you probably watch too much TV, movies, or play too many video games. If you live in the US or the UK with internet access, you have no idea how much worse life could get in an instant. There's nothing romantic about literally fighting to survive. (in regards to social chaos, not our current situation)

[Curtis24]

No, I think its more because I'm young and pretty sure I could survive whatever happened.

Besides, I think the whole thing is ridiculously over-blown.

[MadamI'madaM]

Besides, I think the whole thing is ridiculously over-blown.

probably right about that

[Curtis24]

The down-trending of America has been a gradual process thus far, and it will continue to be a gradual process, until one day we're living in slums while our overlord upper-class masters live on a constructed plate above us, a la Final fantasy 7. And nobody will be able to remember why it happened. Besides, as long as we all have access to comforting entertainment media and discussion forums via the Internet, who's gonna want to riot?

How's this for a future vision: Americans live extremely poorly in slums, yet don't care because we all have good Internet access.

[skip]

which oddly enough few cared about 20 years ago - but in recent years has become a hot issue - most American's agree that immigration should be done legally and these people having broken the law have something coming to them. I submit this - that we care about this issue because it has been publicized a lot in recent years

In southern California we cared twenty years ago and before then. We've been yelling about the problems with illegals for nearly forty years and no one would listen. People haven only recently been paying attention because the scope of the problem has reached beyond southern California.

[OrionzRevenge]

Today's Headlines:
Dow soars 936 in a rally for the ages
The blue chip index posts a record point gain and its biggest 1-day percentage gain since 1933

Maybe all thoses Monsters in Washington know what the fuck they are doing.

Just a thought.

[Ferrus]

Why is it I don't feel the least worried about social chaos erupting?
Because most people in industrial countries these days are too feckless, apathetic and obese to care less about starting a proper revolution.

[Curtis24]

Yeah, I agree totally, and I originally was gonna list that as one of my reasons why I wasn't scared but I forgot.

[garak]

Today's Headlines:
Dow soars 936 in a rally for the ages
The blue chip index posts a record point gain and its biggest 1-day percentage gain since 1933

Maybe all thoses Monsters in Washington know what the fuck they are doing.

Just a thought.

Even if they know what they're doing, what makes you think that their goal is something that is in any way beneficial to you? If anything, it's best to hope they DON'T know what they're doing.