Deference not that important?

[Karl]

Supposedly to feel good about themselves NTs need to feel ingenious and like other people appreciate the NT's ideas. That isn't what I'm going for when I interact with people at all. What I really want is to be useful to the people I care about. That means that if someone I care about wants someone to comfort them or to help them find a solution to what's bothering them, I'll try to do that. It also means that I'll do small things like getting a drink for them or buying them lunch. But basically I just want to improve their life.

I'm not going for a thanks. I remember buying a friend of mine lunch, and her thanking me, and I almost asked why she was bothering to thank me. I honestly enjoyed doing that, so why would she waste time thanking me? Sometimes for emotional or strategic support, or other things less obvious than buying lunch, I do need thanks, just to know that I'm actually being helpful. Espicially emotional support, since that one is so personal and approaching different people the same way won't work. But even when I need thanks in these situations, it's still not about having gratitude expressed to me, but rather knowing that I'm doing a good job.

I don't need to feel like my ideas or insightful or ingenious. My ideas really aren't that ingenious and they don't have to be. I try to understand things, and I enjoy talking about them to learn more, but I wouldn't want that to be the primary way I interacted with someone I cared about, because that misses the person. I hope that some of my ideas can make a difference eventually, but otherwise learning is just enjoyable and I'm not looking to get a sense of self worth from it.

I'm leaning more towards "psychology is crap" but am I really an NT? Or is the NT self image described by Kersey as limiting as it seems to me?

[kendoiwan]

No, no, please do defer :worthy:

[skip]

Have you taken the actual MBTI and reviewed the results with a psychologist?

Have any INFP or INFJ descriptions seemed like they suit you better?

[Karl]

Have you taken the actual MBTI and reviewed the results with a psychologist?

Have any INFP or INFJ descriptions seemed like they suit you better?

I have not taken the "real" MBTI. However I generally use logic as a way of interpreting things and I do not trust emotional values as a means to understanding.

When I was a child I wasn't sure if I was an INFP or an INTP, but since then it hasn't been much of an issue for me and I even identified with the deference thing. I certainly communicate differently than the INFPs I've known and I'm not fruity like an NF (at least I hope not).

I've never thought about INFJ before. I'm completely disorganized but I guess the J-P is about more than losing my socks. I have noticed that I am becoming more close minded and judgemental, although I still feel like I should be able to come from the perspective of opposing view points. Edit: My mother is an INFJ and she's always had issues with me not being more like her. Not being religious, not communicating the same way, not caring enough about others, etc. I suppose, to simplify, that she could just suck.

[Vagabond]

Supposedly to feel good about themselves NTs need to feel ingenious and like other people appreciate the NT's ideas. That isn't what I'm going for when I interact with people at all.
Ditto, I don't give a rat's arse whether people like me or appreciate me or not... as long as they don't stand in my way. If I know I am good at something, that's all I want. People can remain ignorant about it,for all I care.

What I really want is to be useful to the people I care about. That means that if someone I care about wants someone to comfort them or to help them find a solution to what's bothering them, I'll try to do that. It also means that I'll do small things like getting a drink for them or buying them lunch. But basically I just want to improve their life.
I do that to some extent, but being the cynic that I am, I realise I have my own agenda - if they have no problems, I won't have to worry about them, and I can focus on improving my life.

I'm not going for a thanks. I remember buying a friend of mine lunch, and her thanking me, and I almost asked why she was bothering to thank me. I honestly enjoyed doing that, so why would she waste time thanking me? Sometimes for emotional or strategic support, or other things less obvious than buying lunch, I do need thanks, just to know that I'm actually being helpful. Espicially emotional support, since that one is so personal and approaching different people the same way won't work. But even when I need thanks in these situations, it's still not about having gratitude expressed to me, but rather knowing that I'm doing a good job.
I relate to the "no thanks" thing, but that's pretty much it. If I do something, I do it because I want to, ergo I am getting something out of it too, so thanking me makes me feel awkward. Especially when it comes to people close to me, saying "thanks" feel like repaying a debt, and that, to me, sucks.

I don't relate to the whole self-sacrificing, being helpful kind of thing though. Being told people appreciate what I did for them or that I was really helpful or something makes me want to hide under a stone and ignore them till they've forgotten about it. I do like to have solutions and provide them, but like I said, I do get something out of it too; thanking me makes me feel like a fraud. Or something.

I don't need to feel like my ideas or insightful or ingenious. My ideas really aren't that ingenious and they don't have to be. I try to understand things, and I enjoy talking about them to learn more, but I wouldn't want that to be the primary way I interacted with someone I cared about, because that misses the person. I hope that some of my ideas can make a difference eventually, but otherwise learning is just enjoyable and I'm not looking to get a sense of self worth from it.
I don't relate to this. I am my ideas, to a very great extend. That said, I don't need to feel they are super intelligent, but it sure rocks when I do :devil:

I'm leaning more towards "psychology is crap" but am I really an NT? Or is the NT self image described by Kersey as limiting as it seems to me?
I don't believe psychology is crap. I can't say I really know you, but I think you could be an NT just fine, if your core motivation is not so value-based as the behaviour appears to be.

On the other hand, INFJ was a very good suggestion by skip - INFJs have a very different attitude than INFPs; they are very logical, have very structured thought, not too fluffy or outward emotional, they might as well have been NTs, exept for the fact that they are based on a value system more rather than on detached evaluation of factual or theoretical data. And yes, you could have two very different INFJs on the surface, if their value systems are completely different; their internal patterns of processing stuff though would still be similar to some extend.

[Llewellyn]

I like to help other people too. Eventually that might be the underlying goal, also of my nature of acquiring knowledge. And yeah, I like to do this in small things. But overall it seems in practice that other people are helping me more. Helping others I think is even central to INTP. I've had an INFJ friend tell me I kind of have this ability to help others.

Our help will be more on a spiritual level, not on a practical one.

When this is not understood by people they can call it egoistic. For whatever strange reasons in this world we're living in.
This same friend said he would like me more if I were more egoistic and less attentive to others.

[Karl]

I do that to some extent, but being the cynic that I am, I realise I have my own agenda - if they have no problems, I won't have to worry about them, and I can focus on improving my life.

I realized the importance of improving my life when I realized that I was no use to others with my life spiraling down. So sometimes I have to step back from those I care about and help myself, for their sake as much as my own.

This is not the case for everyone though. I will generally help anyone but get no special pleasure out of it most of the time. A couple months ago I gave someone I kind of know a car ride and I got no particular pleasure out of it but I didn't mind.


I don't relate to the whole self-sacrificing, being helpful kind of thing though. Being told people appreciate what I did for them or that I was really helpful or something makes me want to hide under a stone and ignore them till they've forgotten about it. I do like to have solutions and provide them, but like I said, I do get something out of it too; thanking me makes me feel like a fraud. Or something.

I'm not sure if my solutions have actually helped them. When helping people I care about, I'm motivated by feelings, but I try to do it via an abstract logical understanding, and apply it in a way that's relevant to them.


I don't relate to this. I am my ideas, to a very great extend. That said, I don't need to feel they are super intelligent, but it sure rocks when I do

I think it's exciting to break through with a new concept and I enjoy learning. So I put a lot of work into my ideas and it's nice if someone can appreciate that, but I don't define myself by it.


I don't believe psychology is crap.

I believe that psychology is based on Liberal individualism.



On the other hand, INFJ was a very good suggestion by skip - INFJs have a very different attitude than INFPs; they are very logical, have very structured thought, not too fluffy or outward emotional, they might as well have been NTs, exept for the fact that they are based on a value system more rather than on detached evaluation of factual or theoretical data. And yes, you could have two very different INFJs on the surface, if their value systems are completely different; their internal patterns of processing stuff though would still be similar to some extend.

I've been thinking about this. If you believe that personality trumps ideology, then I couldn't be an INFJ. I think principles or ideological goals are a bad way to understand society and should be subservient to a scientific understanding. But I think this because that's what works; Idealism is ideologically faulty.

My day to day interactions can be more feeling based, but they don't have to be. I generally try to be honest over tactful and things like that, so I score a pretty heavy T on the online tests when that's paired with my belief in the necessity of a general scientific understanding.


I like to help other people too. Eventually that might be the underlying goal, also of my nature of acquiring knowledge. And yeah, I like to do this in small things. But overall it seems in practice that other people are helping me more. Helping others I think is even central to INTP. I've had an INFJ friend tell me I kind of have this ability to help others.

Our help will be more on a spiritual level, not on a practical one.

When this is not understood by people they can call it egoistic. For whatever strange reasons in this world we're living in.
This same friend said he would like me more if I were more egoistic and less attentive to others.

That's interesting. Not sure what to make of it. How do you feel you are different than the INFJ friend?

I don't believe in the supernatural though, it's anti-scientific.

[walfin]

thanking==politeness!=deference, imho.

it's more to do with the proper functioning of everything as a whole. take away thanks and a lot of people will feel miffed, because most of them do actually need validation.

but of course we could just eschew altruism and ask for $$ instead of thanks. according to Adam Smith everything'll still work :P


I believe that psychology is based on Liberal individualism.
Psychology is very broad, with many different schools of thought.

[Karl]

hanking==politeness!=deference, imho.

it's more to do with the proper functioning of everything as a whole. take away thanks and a lot of people will feel miffed, because most of them do actually need validation.

but of course we could just eschew altruism and ask for $$ instead of thanks. according to Adam Smith everything'll still work

If I understood that, I agree that thanking isn't deference. I didn't explain what deference meant because I meant it in the sense that Kersey describes it as being important to NTs, so I thought people would understand right away. I don't really member what Kersey calls the thanking bit, it's for SJs.... Not gratitude. Eh, I'll go look it up after this post and edit it back in.

Edit:
Self Esteem, Self Respect, Self Confidence

Idealists: Empathic, Benevolent, Authentic
Guardians: Dependable, beneficent, respectable
Rationals: Ingenious, autonomous, resolute
Artisans: Artistic, audacious, adaptable


Psychology is very broad, with many different schools of thought.

So is Liberalism!