Artistic Vision

[mgb]

For the last year or two I've been toying with the idea of doing wedding photography. I've shot two weddings and gotten some equipment. This winter I'll be buying some more extravagant equipment for shooting my wife's cousin's wedding.

I'm also pushing my cousin in law to spend a whole day to do engagements, which is something that isn't done that often I don't think. But I'm kind of scripting a story for the whole thing that I think will translate well onto film.

Anyways, it's kind of involved but it's really what I want to do. I think it will also be something that the bride and groom will be happy with. And I think this will segue into the wedding well.

I've kind of been expounding on this idea. Talking to my wife, she isn't sure that it will have a wide enough appeal, a lot of brides are just going to want someone to show up and shoot the wedding and then leave.

Ultimately, for me, this is just a hobby. I'm not sure it'll ever be more than that. Which I'm fine with. I can make a little bit of money doing it here and there, but I'm not sure I'd want the responsibility of doing this weekend after weekend. But I would like to do it more than once or twice a year.


So I wonder, is it worth it to do something commercially marketable at the expense of what I value as quality to get experience? Or, will doing things the way I want to, the way I think is right, eventually allow me to go as far with this as I want to?

Any similar experiences you've had with something like this or advice along those lines would be appreciated.

[V Profane]

Commercially speaking, if you can produce flattering wedding shots, you can make a lot of money. People spend idiotic sums on weddings. However, unless you consider making ordinary people look like movie stars a creative challenge, or you know lots of folks who would prefer less conventional photographs, I wouldn't hold that much hope of expressing yourself artistically.

I'm pretty much talking through my hat (arse) here, though.

[mgb]

Commercially speaking, if you can produce flattering wedding shots, you can make a lot of money. People spend idiotic sums on weddings. However, unless you consider making ordinary people look like movie stars a creative challenge, or you know lots of folks who would prefer less conventional photographs, I wouldn't hold that much hope of expressing yourself artistically.

I'm pretty much talking through my hat (arse) here, though.

Well, that's the thing, do I wait for clients that want unconventional photos, or alter my style to match what people are looking for so I can get more clients? And if I do that, will I miss out on future clients who I would have enjoyed working with more had I stuck with my original path?

I don't think you are...I mean, it's the kind of thing anyone can have an opinion on, there are thousands of different forms of this. I think we all give and take a little bit to satisfy the people around us. Just, where is the line?

[V Profane]

I don't think you are...

Indeed. But I don't see why you couldn't do both? I mean, if you don't have a strong objection to doing conventional shots I guess you could get that business to come to you, and then pursue more fulfilling work yourself under a different 'brand'.

[TPol]

Ah...the quandary of most artists. As V Profane said, you could do both the typical and the style you want to do. You could, then, hope to gradually move your main work toward the style you want to do and hope the income stream doesn't diminish.

Or, you could work in another field of work for the income while doing your style of wedding photography on the side until enough word about you gets out that you can go do just the photography for your income.

The problem with the first scenario, in my opinion, is that you may very well get more call for the traditional work (because people don't think outside the box unless you think outside it for them by visually showing them another route). And, suddenly, you are doing a lot of traditional stuff (slowly getting more artistically frustrated in the process) and becoming known for the traditional stuff (thus, those who want non-traditional/artistic all on their own are dismissing you as a possibility and you'll have never known about them).

So, if it were me (and hubby and I have discussed this because he's thought of doing wedding photography [non-traditional], too), I would attempt the second scenario. Even if I had to do the first couple weddings for free or a reduced price, I'd do it to build up my portfolio and show people the possibilities beyond the traditional.

From what I've seen in my observations of the world of art and art business, there are clients out there for every artist. They just need to find each other. You won't enjoy your work (which, to me, is an important thing in life), especially your artistic work, unless you do what you really want to do how you want to do it. In the art world, if you enjoy doing it, it is likely there are people out there who will enjoy experiencing it...and paying you for it.

[mgb]

Ah...the quandary of most artists. As V Profane said, you could do both the typical and the style you want to do. You could, then, hope to gradually move your main work toward the style you want to do and hope the income stream doesn't diminish.

Or, you could work in another field of work for the income while doing your style of wedding photography on the side until enough word about you gets out that you can go do just the photography for your income.

The problem with the first scenario, in my opinion, is that you may very well get more call for the traditional work (because people don't think outside the box unless you think outside it for them by visually showing them another route). And, suddenly, you are doing a lot of traditional stuff (slowly getting more artistically frustrated in the process) and becoming known for the traditional stuff (thus, those who want non-traditional/artistic all on their own are dismissing you as a possibility and you'll have never known about them).

So, if it were me (and hubby and I have discussed this because he's thought of doing wedding photography [non-traditional], too), I would attempt the second scenario. Even if I had to do the first couple weddings for free or a reduced price, I'd do it to build up my portfolio and show people the possibilities beyond the traditional.

From what I've seen in my observations of the world of art and art business, there are clients out there for every artist. They just need to find each other. You won't enjoy your work (which, to me, is an important thing in life), especially your artistic work, unless you do what you really want to do how you want to do it. In the art world, if you enjoy doing it, it is likely there are people out there who will enjoy experiencing it...and paying you for it.

Thanks. I'm kind of leaning the way you are describing, but I'm wondering if I'm not seeing something.

And I should mention too that I have a great full time job that pays the bills, so my back isn't against the wall to get paying clients.

[Arachne]

I'll consult my ESFJ sister who works for a high-end wedding coordinator here in LA and see what she thinks from a business angle. As an artist, having done a number of painted portraits on commission, I can tell you that people are incredibly fussy about images of themselves. The special challenge I see for artistic wedding portraits is that most people don't marry more than a few times over the course of a lifetime (if that) so you won't be able to establish a regular clientel who appreciate your style... like another artist can. You'll have to sell your vision over and over and over again.


From what I've seen in my observations of the world of art and art business, there are clients out there for every artist. They just need to find each other. You won't enjoy your work (which, to me, is an important thing in life), especially your artistic work, unless you do what you really want to do how you want to do it. In the art world, if you enjoy doing it, it is likely there are people out there who will enjoy experiencing it...and paying you for it.

Is it really true?

[TPol]

And I should mention too that I have a great full time job that pays the bills, so my back isn't against the wall to get paying clients.

Then, you can have fun without too many restrictions except time, right from the start! Don't know enough about what you have and haven't researched about art business to know what you might be missing. I've read some good books with tips on running an art business. I could dig up titles from the dusty recesses of my mind, if you like...or the archives of my computer notes on the subject. ;)

[TPol]

I'll consult my ESFJ sister who works for a high-end wedding coordinator here in LA and see what she thinks from a business angle. As an artist, having done a number of painted portraits on commission, I can tell you that people are incredibly fussy about images of themselves. The special challenge I see for artistic wedding portraits is that most people don't marry more than a few times over the course of a lifetime (if that) so you won't be able to establish a regular clientel who appreciate your style... like another artist can. You'll have to sell your vision over and over and over again.

Good point. This does separate it somewhat from several other art forms, even other kinds of photography. At the same time, if you're willing, you might get clientele that stay with you to do non-traditional photos of their first house, births of their children, unusual photos of their kids while growing up and milestones along the way (graduations, proms, etc), and then the kids' weddings. I would agree that people are fussy about images of themselves, but photography has an advantage over paintings in that you can take lots and lots of photos and the client gets to choose their favorites of them to display in their homes and albums.


Is it really true?

I am not yet in the art business myself, so you have more direct experience than I do. I do have several friends making a living as artists, though (mostly sculptors), and my comments are based from my visits with them (and their colleagues at art shows). I haven't talked to very many painters (again, mostly sculptors), though. Perhaps the market and client psychology works differently with paintings than it does in the sculpture market. The key, I think, is in getting the artist and the client who likes their work to find each other. It doesn't sound easy (a good portion of the work is marketing), but it does sound doable. My main gist is that there seem to be lovers of the art for every style of art there is. Bringing them together and making the sale is where the business gets tricky.

[Hustler]

I suspect a hybrid approach will be what's best. You need to learn the basics, and I'm guessing two weddings, while certainly instructive, isn't enough to teach you all of the fundamentals you need to know. You should probably stick to doing any and every wedding you can for a while, but push the boundaries as far as each client is willing to let you. You can, in doing this, acquire necessary basic experience while you simultaneously give yourself a chance to build a more artistic, non-traditional portfolio. It is these images you will selectively use to establish yourself, perhaps via a website or other types of marketing that you control. Through this you can create whatever image you want for yourself and, in doing so, not risk losing clients in the future who might consider you too mainstream. Artistic, non-traditional wedding photography is bound to be a niche that has some demand, so you can also count on word of mouth as well anytime you're able to satisfy clients along those lines. Take whatever work you can get, and master even the most mundane details of your craft, but promote yourself as an artist. If you do that, your schedule should start filling up with clients looking for something more in line with your vision and less bound by tradition, and you should have gained the necessary experience and competence to be able bring your vision to life.

[A Schnitzel]

My INTP father's a commercial photographer who used to do some wedding shots. He usually was corralled into doing them by friends, relatives, or acquaintances. He didn't enjoy doing weddings and for the past few years has refused many offers.

The clients were whiny, demanding, didn't know what they wanted. Often the photos they received while being exactly what they specified, weren't what they imagined in some way so he was snubbed by people. Sure you can make a lot of money, but it's a job that involves a lot of dealing with people (often at their worst moments). He also needed a quality assistant to help haul equipment, control crowds, make sure people are where they need to be at the right times, etc.

I don't think he ever enjoyed photography involving people much. Sports action photography was an exception, but that didn't involve dealing with them or emotions.

[Spartan26]

I'd think it'd be worth the risk or effort, though I'm not really sure of what you're most afraid of. Creative or traditional, it's gonna be tedious at times.

I don't really know too much about the process but I have helped some people shoot weddings, (many moons ago), but they also did video work. Were you planning at all to do full recordings?

How proficient are you with your camera? That'd be the first thing I think you'd want to conquer. Like do you know essentially what ever shot is going to look like before you shoot it? For what you're trying to accomplish, I'm not sure how big a difference there is between motion picture and still photog but some of the DP's I know can go beyond basic or advanced rules of shooting based on the equipment that they're using because of the amount of use. They're like caddies. They're not just trying to situate themselves for a shot but they're reaching in their bag for a special lens to get the effect they're after. They might be a bit off, but they know their camera's limits.

I don't know how the pricings work but could you offer various packages? Maybe you have the basic gold star package that has the more traditional shots but then offer two mgb exclusives, that you can decide what those'll be or how that can work, whatever. Then you could have a Diamond Package where you get everything offered in the gold plus maybe a couple of other things. I'd imagine you're shooting these digitally, right? How quick are you with photoshop? Your biggest challenge may come after you take your equipment down.

Will you have an assistant? About how many photos will you be taking or time frame, do you know? I think capturing as much of the big event could be a huge selling point for you. Like getting the rehearsal dinner and say the arrival of inlaws at the hotel (some of this can be staged of course). But I remember seeing a digital photo album that had quite a bit of shots not done at the wedding but pertained to the wedding. Full Disclosure: she's an atty and her hubby's an agent at a big house so they're sh#tting dough. Not sure how feasible it'd be but if you could offer that as a mgb Black Select package, you might get a few bites.

Even when offering the more creative looks, I'd think it's still going to be somewhat standardized. At least my advice to you would be to make even the creative somewhat standardized. Again, I can only use film as an example but take the looks of various directors (my apologies for not naming the DP's). Michael Mann has a look. Spike another. Sergio Leone had his scapes. Ridley Scott had another. One of the things I think you need to remember it's not so much how you see things but you're trying to match how the couple [read: bride] will remember it. Really listen to how she describes what she's after. Brides want their wedding day perfect. You can provide that even if it isn't even close.

Not sure how popular the use of wedding planners are there but I'd talk to them before hand. Talk to the bride, and bride's mom, about what she's looking for. Many weddings have themes. If it's outdoors in the mtns then you can suggest the Spaghetti Western look. Of course, you'll have more appealing titles but use terms like majestic and wide horizons, let them know before hand so they can either thumbs up or poo poo the idea before you start. Indoor night wedding that's really formal, sell the Mann, if it's a large extended family with lots of out of towners, maybe homeland country, sell the Scorsesee. You'll have come up with these but I don't think the creative vs traditional will be such an issue as much as the couple not being totally surprised when they get the proofs. If you tell them you'll have them look just like Bladerunner and they say cool, no one's gonna be disappointed and say all these shots are under exposed.

If you can shoot a wedding then you can prolly shot all sorts of events. Kids' plays, bar mitzvahs, class reunions, etc. One thing I think about weddings is that people who attend don't generally get to see the photos. If you could offer a way for guests to be able to purchase shots of say them w/the happy couple or a group of guys from high school, it could be a good way to generate more income from the same event. I don't know how kosher that is but something you could consider. Maybe set up a website where people can see low res thumbnails and purchase copies from you. It'd be a great way to set up the kind of work you can do. Also some of these events will be in the same venues. Get your name on a short list for the Holiday Inn Mgr and you could get last second calls to shoot conventions or various receptions. Hotels are very big into mrktg their facilities. They could gain an additional selling point by offering a photographer for their events.

Other practical things would be know your location before hand. Have three or four "perfect" backdrops ready to go once things start happening. Not only will lighting and the results come out showier, people tend to more the action towards you and you're not having to work the room as much.

Also offer incentive prices. So many people who are getting married know someone who's also getting married. Offer a rebate if a second couple signs up at the same time and you do shoot their wedding. I say rebate because you never know who's going to back out and who's gonna try to scam. Then just have cards and flyers ready to go. If you're worrying about getting run into the ground going out every w/e, then set your calendar in advance and turn people down. It sux and is scary to turn down work but people still will mention their first choice in casual convo. Might not be as good as a referral but you're not completely dead.

Offering super low rates as you get started may be a great way to go. Also, it's a good time to see if you're having fun. That may actually come through in your shots. If you're not able to enjoy starting off for next to nothing, I seriously doubt you'll get that much pleasure out of it if you're scoring big cheddah.

Good luck
:cheers:

[mgb]

I'll consult my ESFJ sister who works for a high-end wedding coordinator here in LA and see what she thinks from a business angle. As an artist, having done a number of painted portraits on commission, I can tell you that people are incredibly fussy about images of themselves. The special challenge I see for artistic wedding portraits is that most people don't marry more than a few times over the course of a lifetime (if that) so you won't be able to establish a regular clientel who appreciate your style... like another artist can. You'll have to sell your vision over and over and over again.

I think you're totally right about people's visions of themselves. It makes me wonder if I should be more careful about who my clients are. Have you ever turned anyone away as a client because you weren't sure you'd want to/be able to meet the vision they have of themselves?






Then, you can have fun without too many restrictions except time, right from the start! Don't know enough about what you have and haven't researched about art business to know what you might be missing. I've read some good books with tips on running an art business. I could dig up titles from the dusty recesses of my mind, if you like...or the archives of my computer notes on the subject. ;)


That might be great if you could do that, with the book titles. I've been thinking of taking some evening classes on both the wedding photography business and composition. My plate has just been kind of full this year, so the books might be a better place to start.



I suspect a hybrid approach will be what's best. You need to learn the basics, and I'm guessing two weddings, while certainly instructive, isn't enough to teach you all of the fundamentals you need to know. You should probably stick to doing any and every wedding you can for a while, but push the boundaries as far as each client is willing to let you. You can, in doing this, acquire necessary basic experience while you simultaneously give yourself a chance to build a more artistic, non-traditional portfolio. It is these images you will selectively use to establish yourself, perhaps via a website or other types of marketing that you control. Through this you can create whatever image you want for yourself and, in doing so, not risk losing clients in the future who might consider you too mainstream. Artistic, non-traditional wedding photography is bound to be a niche that has some demand, so you can also count on word of mouth as well anytime you're able to satisfy clients along those lines. Take whatever work you can get, and master even the most mundane details of your craft, but promote yourself as an artist. If you do that, your schedule should start filling up with clients looking for something more in line with your vision and less bound by tradition, and you should have gained the necessary experience and competence to be able bring your vision to life.

I might have a couple more family weddings coming up, where I'll probably be able to exercise some creativity, but I think you might be right for the long run while I'm building some sort of portfolio.

I guess part of my problem is that I'd like to incorporate a few unconventional styles of photography in with the regular shots (things like lomo, polaroid, street photography) and I'm not sure everyone is always ok with it.

If you are right, maybe I can use it to create kind of a separate portfolio and let the clients choose how far they want to go.


My INTP father's a commercial photographer who used to do some wedding shots. He usually was corralled into doing them by friends, relatives, or acquaintances. He didn't enjoy doing weddings and for the past few years has refused many offers.

The clients were whiny, demanding, didn't know what they wanted. Often the photos they received while being exactly what they specified, weren't what they imagined in some way so he was snubbed by people. Sure you can make a lot of money, but it's a job that involves a lot of dealing with people (often at their worst moments). He also needed a quality assistant to help haul equipment, control crowds, make sure people are where they need to be at the right times, etc.

I don't think he ever enjoyed photography involving people much. Sports action photography was an exception, but that didn't involve dealing with them or emotions.

I kind of like shooting people. You definitely have to coax the pictures out of them a little more, but I find the results can be really rewarding.

I found that they were whiny and demanding and didn't know what they want too. I guess all those years in retail kick in and I can just tell them what they want. In time I think that will be easier for me. For me, I kind of want every shoot to be a new adventure, so part of it is going to be finding new locations that still match the personality of the people I'm shooting while not making it boring for me.

My quality assistant is my wife :) Actually, having an ENFP that loves weddings around has been great. She's great with the brides and I can give her the camera for the getting dressed shots and stuff like that where the bride isn't comfortable having a male in the room.

[mgb]

I'd think it'd be worth the risk or effort, though I'm not really sure of what you're most afraid of. Creative or traditional, it's gonna be tedious at times.

It's usually as soon as I sit down at the computer to go over the pictures. I'm switching from all film to mostly digital, that should cut down on days and days of scanning negatives.



I don't really know too much about the process but I have helped some people shoot weddings, (many moons ago), but they also did video work. Were you planning at all to do full recordings?

No video. I don't know enough about it. I guess if they really wanted it I could always sub it out.



How proficient are you with your camera? That'd be the first thing I think you'd want to conquer. Like do you know essentially what ever shot is going to look like before you shoot it? For what you're trying to accomplish, I'm not sure how big a difference there is between motion picture and still photog but some of the DP's I know can go beyond basic or advanced rules of shooting based on the equipment that they're using because of the amount of use. They're like caddies. They're not just trying to situate themselves for a shot but they're reaching in their bag for a special lens to get the effect they're after. They might be a bit off, but they know their camera's limits.

I'm not bad. I suppose I'm always learning. I usually have an idea of what I'm going for and can achieve that. I think my weakest spot is longer exposures and working with the flash in specialized cases.



I don't know how the pricings work but could you offer various packages? Maybe you have the basic gold star package that has the more traditional shots but then offer two mgb exclusives, that you can decide what those'll be or how that can work, whatever. Then you could have a Diamond Package where you get everything offered in the gold plus maybe a couple of other things. I'd imagine you're shooting these digitally, right? How quick are you with photoshop? Your biggest challenge may come after you take your equipment down.

That might be a good way to go too. I think that I'll have to offer one package at the start and then go from there. Part of my problem is that I'm always feeling like I should be giving the clients more, so it'll be tough for me to draw a line at where one package ends and the other begins.

You're right about the digital darkroom. There are quite a few programs though that make photoshop way easier. Just a couple of clicks and you can transform an image into something new.

The next frontier in all of this seems to be albums. I think I need to expand my business contacts for that.



Will you have an assistant? About how many photos will you be taking or time frame, do you know? I think capturing as much of the big event could be a huge selling point for you. Like getting the rehearsal dinner and say the arrival of inlaws at the hotel (some of this can be staged of course). But I remember seeing a digital photo album that had quite a bit of shots not done at the wedding but pertained to the wedding. Full Disclosure: she's an atty and her hubby's an agent at a big house so they're sh#tting dough. Not sure how feasible it'd be but if you could offer that as a mgb Black Select package, you might get a few bites.

And that's something I've totally been thinking about. A lot of photographers will only show up for the ceremony and some formals afterwards. I don't like that at all. I think the photographer should be there for the whole day and as much as possible before the ceremony. A wedding isn't an hour long, it's something that lasts a few days.



Even when offering the more creative looks, I'd think it's still going to be somewhat standardized. At least my advice to you would be to make even the creative somewhat standardized. Again, I can only use film as an example but take the looks of various directors (my apologies for not naming the DP's). Michael Mann has a look. Spike another. Sergio Leone had his scapes. Ridley Scott had another. One of the things I think you need to remember it's not so much how you see things but you're trying to match how the couple [read: bride] will remember it. Really listen to how she describes what she's after. Brides want their wedding day perfect. You can provide that even if it isn't even close.
That's a good point about the directors. Maybe I'm actually doing that as I'm going.

Yes, I don't want to be the problem during the day. That's something I really work hard at.



Not sure how popular the use of wedding planners are there but I'd talk to them before hand. Talk to the bride, and bride's mom, about what she's looking for. Many weddings have themes. If it's outdoors in the mtns then you can suggest the Spaghetti Western look. Of course, you'll have more appealing titles but use terms like majestic and wide horizons, let them know before hand so they can either thumbs up or poo poo the idea before you start. Indoor night wedding that's really formal, sell the Mann, if it's a large extended family with lots of out of towners, maybe homeland country, sell the Scorsesee. You'll have come up with these but I don't think the creative vs traditional will be such an issue as much as the couple not being totally surprised when they get the proofs. If you tell them you'll have them look just like Bladerunner and they say cool, no one's gonna be disappointed and say all these shots are under exposed.

heh heh. That was kind of funny. But I get your point.



If you can shoot a wedding then you can prolly shot all sorts of events. Kids' plays, bar mitzvahs, class reunions, etc. One thing I think about weddings is that people who attend don't generally get to see the photos. If you could offer a way for guests to be able to purchase shots of say them w/the happy couple or a group of guys from high school, it could be a good way to generate more income from the same event. I don't know how kosher that is but something you could consider. Maybe set up a website where people can see low res thumbnails and purchase copies from you. It'd be a great way to set up the kind of work you can do. Also some of these events will be in the same venues. Get your name on a short list for the Holiday Inn Mgr and you could get last second calls to shoot conventions or various receptions. Hotels are very big into mrktg their facilities. They could gain an additional selling point by offering a photographer for their events.

Other practical things would be know your location before hand. Have three or four "perfect" backdrops ready to go once things start happening. Not only will lighting and the results come out showier, people tend to more the action towards you and you're not having to work the room as much.

Also offer incentive prices. So many people who are getting married know someone who's also getting married. Offer a rebate if a second couple signs up at the same time and you do shoot their wedding. I say rebate because you never know who's going to back out and who's gonna try to scam. Then just have cards and flyers ready to go. If you're worrying about getting run into the ground going out every w/e, then set your calendar in advance and turn people down. It sux and is scary to turn down work but people still will mention their first choice in casual convo. Might not be as good as a referral but you're not completely dead.

Offering super low rates as you get started may be a great way to go. Also, it's a good time to see if you're having fun. That may actually come through in your shots. If you're not able to enjoy starting off for next to nothing, I seriously doubt you'll get that much pleasure out of it if you're scoring big cheddah.

Good luck
:cheers:

All good business points and definitely stuff I've thought about. With the rebates...photographers usually sell their pictures at insanely high rates, even if they give away the digital negatives. That's something I could do too.

Thanks for all the input and all the time to type it out.

[earwax]

Personally, I would never want to shoot weddings. (Don't stick me in the middle of a mother-in-law and her vision of how her daughter's wedding should be. :ph34r: )

But I would think if they are having a traditional wedding, they would be expecting more traditional pictures. If they are opening up a bit, then they may be more receptive to your artistic vision.

[TPol]

Now that I'm looking back at my notes and book lists, I see that most of them are geared mostly toward visual arts that are shown in galleries (paintings, sculpture, artistic photography, etc) and not so much toward something like wedding photography (not shown in galleries). I visited with hubby (INTJ), and he liked Dan Heller's books on the digital photography business. He has two that are almost identical books (different cover and different title, but nearly identical content). Profitable Photography in Digital Age: Strategies for Success is one of them. Hubby did say that this author uses a lot of words to say what could have been said on two pages on the Internet, and he's found some good sites that say the same info more succinctly. But, if your local library has the book or another by Heller, it is worth reading.

Of the ones on my list, Art Marketing by Constance Smith, ISBN #0-940899-48-5, was the most useful to me and I think would be worth it for you to, again, read it from the library (not worth purchasing, for it is still mostly geared to artists who aren't wedding photographers). It gives sample model releases, covers some other legal topics, gives tips on how to figure pricing, goes through some ideas on record-keeping, describes the different types of portfolios and tips on creating them, and contains quite a few marketing ideas that would work for or could be adapted for your use.

Also, I'd post an article I typed directly from Artist's Magazine, but posting it on a public forum would probably violate some copyright law. (smirk)

[Spartan26]

All good business points and definitely stuff I've thought about. With the rebates...photographers usually sell their pictures at insanely high rates, even if they give away the digital negatives. That's something I could do too.

Thanks for all the input and all the time to type it out.There's kind of a protection factor that can go into the pricing. You as the photographer maintain rights to all your photos, (unless otherwise contracted out). So it's really a matter of copyright infringment if you happen to see your work published elsewhere w/out your permission. There's some kinda formula that they use to determine how much you lost if say The Border is out shooting on location and they happen to use footage with one of your stills in the bg. One of the things your atty would present is how much you "could've" made had the picture infringed had actually sold. The atty would argue that because of showing on air you lost $X of dollars. You having a documented price helps solidify your claim. I'd go ahead and keep the list price as high as your competitors, (as much as you think you can stand w/out losing too much business), regardless of if you ever plan on making someone pay that amount, and then offer the couple a discout/rebate/what have you when it actually comes time to pay. The amount you would receive from a settlement is significantly higher than what you or anyone would've actually received had the license of said photo been negotiated before hand. I'm sure different limits in Canada but I'm fairly sure the same principles apply.