US car industry seeks bail-out

[Ferrus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7736301.stm

Thoughts?

[kendoiwan]

They picked a good time to hold out their hats I'll give them that...

[garak]

My gut reaction is to let them die. They are about as fit for survival as a 400lb McDonald's patron. Their cars suck and they've been arrogant and stubborn about the environment, to everyone's detriment. Then again, their failure would mean the failure of something like a tenth of our entire economy. Then AGAIN, why do we think we can keep propping up behemoths when they're almost dead, as if that'll fix the underlying problem? The chickens have to come home to roost eventually, and the longer we postpone it, the worse it will be. No one seems to want to face this.

[pioneer_167]

They fucked up with bad business practices. This is a free market economy, let them die. If you insist on dumping money in so 'people wont lose their jobs' why not invest it in a new auto company that maybe actually has a future such as Tesla Motors.

[Huston]

This is a free market economy, let them die.

What! When?

[kendoiwan]

My gut reaction is to let them die. They are about as fit for survival as a 400lb McDonald's patron. Their cars suck and they've been arrogant and stubborn about the environment, to everyone's detriment. Then again, their failure would mean the failure of something like a tenth of our entire economy. Then AGAIN, why do we think we can keep propping up behemoths when they're almost dead, as if that'll fix the underlying problem? The chickens have to come home to roost eventually, and the longer we postpone it, the worse it will be. No one seems to want to face this.

Nah, Obama pretty much said the same thing on 60 minutes. To paraphrase, if this were '99 and we're at 4% unemployment and this crisis isn't happening let em fail... Which leads me back to my original point, great timing...

Ashton Kutcher had a good point too on Bill Mahers show, let the oil companies bail them out as that's who they're beholden to anyway...

[garak]

Ashton Kutcher had a good point too on Bill Mahers show, let the oil companies bail them out as that's who they're beholden to anyway...

Yeah I was pretty surprised/impressed with what he said on real time.

[pioneer_167]

What! When?

Please let me revel in my delusions.

[kendoiwan]

What! When?

In theory, so I'm told

[Ferrus]

Well, it is about the jobs. I don't think many people want to see the companies survive.

But given there is scant protection for unemployed workers in the US (I hear about 1/8th of the population is malnourished) then letting hundreds of thousands of honest workers get sacks seems somewhat cruel and a recipe for social unrest. Which is exactly what worries the government.

I did hear of a recent technological advance that might prove interesting, 'hairy' nanotech ultracapacitors that would be far more efficient than lithium batteries in electric cars.

[kendoiwan]

Well, it is about the jobs. I don't think many people want to see the companies survive.

But given there is scant protection for unemployed workers in the US (I hear about 1/8th of the population is malnourished) then letting hundreds of thousands of honest workers get sacks seems somewhat cruel and a recipe for social unrest. Which is exactly what worries the government.


If by this you're referring to the part suppliers then yes you have a point, because the way I understand it no one much cares if the actual automakers go under...

[garak]

I did hear of a recent technological advance that might prove interesting, 'hairy' nanotech ultracapacitors that would be far more efficient than lithium batteries in electric cars.

Don't hold your breath. Those "advances" make the news ALL the time. Every week there is a "breakthrough" in either solar energy or batteries, but I've been seeing these stories for years and none have made it onto the market yet. Usually they're incomplete ("promising") discoveries, or impractical to produce in the real world, or maybe they just take years and years to move into production. In any case, I can't help but laugh/cry when I see these stories time after time. It gets really old.

[pioneer_167]

Don't hold your breath. Those "advances" make the news ALL the time. Every week there is a "breakthrough" in either solar energy or batteries, but I've been seeing these stories for years and none have made it onto the market yet. Usually they're incomplete ("promising") discoveries, or impractical to produce in the real world, or maybe they just take years and years to move into production. In any case, I can't help but laugh/cry when I see these stories time after time. It gets really old.

Indeed. And I believe we've had this discussion in multiple places here before. Bottom line, the Chevy Volt should've been out 5 years ago and available at a price of under 20K. Not in 2-4 years (maybe) at a cost of 40K+.

[avolkiteshvara]

Yeah I was pretty surprised/impressed with what he said on real time.

Ashton Kuchar? Guy seems like a dipshit. Although I think I remember hearing somewhere that he was a chem major in college.


I say only do it if the government get a majority stakeholder share, kicks out the current board of directors and puts in Steve Jobs or someone to kick some green ass.

Otherwise it is just prolonging the future.

[garak]

Ashton Kuchar? Guy seems like a dipshit.

Which is why I was surprised. Did you see him on the show?

[C.J.Woolf]

I say only do it if the government get a majority stakeholder share, kicks out the current board of directors and puts in Steve Jobs or someone to kick some green ass.

Otherwise it is just prolonging the future.
I agree. The auto industry can play a role in the alternative energy "Manhattan Project", minus the top several layers of its current management.

[avolkiteshvara]

Which is why I was surprised. Did you see him on the show?

I try to watch if they have some intelligent guests. I think I probably saw kutcher and was like "fuck that." I always get annoyed when Ben Affleck gets on there also.

I think his old show, Politically Incorrect was 100x better. Not sure why exactly.

[Stryfe]

I say only do it if the government get a majority stakeholder share, kicks out the current board of directors and puts in Steve Jobs or someone to kick some green ass. If Steve Jobs made a car it would have no steering wheel, you'd just wave your hand around on the dash to steer, it would only be able to fill up at iGas stations, and when the tires wore out you'd have to ship the car back to the factory to have them replaced.

[Zephyrus055]

What's wrong with Toyota or Honda buying them up?

[purveyor of truth]

I hate to say this but let em sink or swim, GM was having problems during the boom for christs sake. The only possible thing that might work would be a goverment contract to build something. Still a stupid waste.

I hate to say it because there was a romance thing with American cars and hotrods in my generation. Time marches on....

[C.J.Woolf]

What's wrong with Toyota or Honda buying them up?
I can't see why they would want to. It would be Daimler-Chrysler all over again.

[drdolittle]

Of course you should let them fail. The only reason this whole mess got so out of hand was because people expected that they were too big to fail. If people actually risked their own money they would research things more carefully and not but opaque shit like CDS's. Most of us do more research before we buy a car than we do when deciding who invests our 401k.
That said, I wonder how they explain giving 700 billion to "financial services" that hallucinate wealth, make only paper products of no real value and destroy our economy in the process but they won't give 25 billion to an industry which still makes real stuff. I think it's a bit like enron and Martha Stewart. Making a fall guy from the little one with a small crime. Distraction and they show that they're "tough on crime."

[purveyor of truth]

The next thing coming is the Japanese building our houses for us.

[purveyor of truth]

I looked up Caterpillar stock prices
52 week high 85.96
52 week low 31.95
current 36.19

I wonder how many American industries are in real trouble.

[avolkiteshvara]

I looked up Caterpillar stock prices
52 week high 85.96
52 week low 31.95
current 36.19

I wonder how many American industries are in real trouble.


Caterpillar is fine. Globally diversified. Industry leader.


The american car industry has been limping along for long time.

[purveyor of truth]

Caterpillar is fine. Globally diversified. Industry leader.


I dont know http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/10/caterpillar_plu.html

[avolkiteshvara]

I dont know http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/10/caterpillar_plu.html

They will be hurting for a while, but they won't fold like the car companies.

[Ferrus]

The next thing coming is the Japanese building our houses for us.
I really don't think that's likely, the Japanese aren't known for that.

Look out for the Poles, if experience here is anything.

[SensEye]

I worry that if the government bails out these guys on top of the financial industry, it will pretty much set a precedent that every industry that runs aground due to stupid management will come hat in hand to the taxpayer. In fact, it will incent greedy (if not stupid) management. Take big risks, if you win, you make out like a bandit. If you lose, taxpayer is on the hook. It's like gambling with play money.

Where will it end?

And bankruptcy (aka Chapter 11) does not necessarily mean the company will disappear from the landscape (maybe, but not for sure). A big part the problem with US car companies are their pension/healthcare obligations and overpaid employees due to union agreements. Chapter 11 allows them to get out from much of that.

Now if they do, the taxpayer might still get stuck with part of the bill for healthcare benefits that won't be paid, and even some pension top-ups. Probably a lot less than handouts now (which will just be a band aid) and bankrupty (or more bailouts) later.

[kendoiwan]

And bankruptcy (aka Chapter 11) does not necessarily mean the company will disappear from the landscape (maybe, but not for sure). A big part the problem with US car companies are their pension/healthcare obligations and overpaid employees due to union agreements. Chapter 11 allows them to get out from much of that.

Now if they do, the taxpayer might still get stuck with part of the bill for healthcare benefits that won't be paid, and even some pension top-ups. Probably a lot less than handouts now (which will just be a band aid) and bankrupty (or more bailouts) later.

The claim is Chapter 11 isn't an option because of the current credit crunch, which leads me back to my original statement yet again... Great timing to hold out the hat...

[Shades of Gray]

The stated reason for why the car companys can't claim chapter 11 is because consumers will not buy cars from a company in bankruptcy. The fear is that the company will not be around to cover warranty claims.

I work for a Tier 1 auto parts supplier in the Detroit metro area. The situation is pretty bleak.



And bankruptcy (aka Chapter 11) does not necessarily mean the company will disappear from the landscape (maybe, but not for sure). A big part the problem with US car companies are their pension/healthcare obligations and overpaid employees due to union agreements. Chapter 11 allows them to get out from much of that.

Now if they do, the taxpayer might still get stuck with part of the bill for healthcare benefits that won't be paid, and even some pension top-ups. Probably a lot less than handouts now (which will just be a band aid) and bankrupty (or more bailouts) later.

In the last round of union contracts, the union took over control of the pension funds, so if the car company does go under, the fund should be secure.

[kendoiwan]

euzPOfD2Dhw

[purveyor of truth]

I was a GM auto mechanic exactly 20 years ago, some models had problems but overall they made pretty good stuff, better than Ford or Chrysler. They were easier to work on and their systems were better designed. Its hard for me to wrap my brain around whats going on now.

[Ferrus]

Youtube vid
Some excellent discussion there.

Has anyone seen what the collapse of Lehman brothers did? I think, there is a case for saying, as stated repeatedly there, for just throwing what one can at it to soften the landing. The consequences are likely to be the lesser of two evils.

Or maybe people will end up feeling like him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Armstrong) about the whole thing.

[avolkiteshvara]

Sam Donaldson looks like a confused vulcan. What the fuck was he talking about tape worm?

Problem with these programs is that you never get a balanced discussion. Every kowtows to the nobel laureate.

[Denzien]

Look out for the Poles, if experience here is anything.

We've already got Mexicans and all sorts of other Central and South American species, I don't think the Poles can compete with them.

[Denzien]

The stated reason for why the car companys can't claim chapter 11 is because consumers will not buy cars from a company in bankruptcy. The fear is that the company will not be around to cover warranty claims.

Seems like they should just split into related companies...Car Manufacturers are in the business of selling parts and service anyhow...not cars. That's just a byproduct.

Too bad they didn't realize that making better quality vehicles will lead to more parts and service business through a glut of their vehicles on the road...even if most of them would require less maintenance. :stupid:

[pioneer_167]

The claim is Chapter 11 isn't an option because of the current credit crunch, which leads me back to my original statement yet again... Great timing to hold out the hat...

Not to mention that no one would buy a car from a bankrupt company.

[Ferrus]

Problem with these programs is that you never get a balanced discussion. Every kowtows to the nobel laureate.
Still, on history at least, he had the other guy wtfpwned.

[walfin]

Not to mention that no one would buy a car from a bankrupt company.
Y'all could start a new industry for disposable cars or something.

Everyone wants a bailout. Sigh. Can I have one too?

[C.J.Woolf]

Y'all could start a new industry for disposable cars or something.
"Planned obsolescence" was once a conscious strategy of the Big 3. Might still be for all I know.

[Shades of Gray]

"Planned obsolescence" was once a conscious strategy of the Big 3. Might still be for all I know.

Everything is designed to last 10 years. We had tests for air conditioner pumps that would run for X hours that simulated 10 years of use. If the pump ran longer than that, something was removed and/or cheapened out.

[avolkiteshvara]

Everything is designed to last 10 years. We had tests for air conditioner pumps that would run for X hours that simulated 10 years of use. If the pump ran longer than that, something was removed and/or cheapened out.

This ideology is what is really embodied in the idea of doing right by your customer paying off. They've been fucking their customers so long, they've fallen.

[Shades of Gray]

This ideology is what is really embodied in the idea of doing right by your customer paying off. They've been fucking their customers so long, they've fallen.

It's all about costs. They could make the cars last longer, but the price is going to go up because the quality is better. They had to decide what the minimum life span of their vehicles should be. I don't really see 10 years as being that bad.

What really bugs me is the materials that some components are made of. The cheap plastic of the door handles and switches, the thin material of the seats and roof liner. A couple extra bucks there would really make a difference for me when buying a car.

[Oso Mocoso]

What really bugs me is the materials that some components are made of. The cheap plastic of the door handles and switches, the thin material of the seats and roof liner. A couple extra bucks there would really make a difference for me when buying a car.

... and that's why I buy Japanese cars where they pay more attention to quality.

Why do I have a feeling no matter whether the .gov bails out the auto companies or not, this is even more bad news for Michigan?

[avolkiteshvara]

It's all about costs. They could make the cars last longer, but the price is going to go up because the quality is better. They had to decide what the minimum life span of their vehicles should be. I don't really see 10 years as being that bad.



I don't have any data to back it up, but I am guessing most people would pay more, like they do for toyota and honda, for better quality.

Personally I went Japanese just because I didn't want to worry about any car problems.

As far as materials goes, I think I saw thing on Current TV where they had a car that was completely bio-degradable. The seats were made of some hybrid fungus.

[2hype]

... and that's why I buy Japanese cars where they pay more attention to quality.


I had the opposite experience. Last time I shopped for a car I was struck by how much nicer the interiors of GM cars were than the similarly priced Japanese cars. Especially the fabrics.

[Huston]

... and that's why I buy Japanese cars where they pay more attention to quality.

Why do I have a feeling no matter whether the .gov bails out the auto companies or not, this is even more bad news for Michigan?

It is bad way either way... whether GM focuses more on "green" to get funding from the Obama influence, I doubt a bail out will solve anything. These companies need major restructuring right down to the unions.

Oh, but people will lose their jobs. People will lose their jobs bailout or not. In fact a bailout will worsen things for everyone else.. not that matters considering the money the financials have gotten.

According to Max Keiser the bailout is actually at 4.2 trillion dollars already.

Just let the phony economy collapse like Peter Schiff says, and things will restructure on their own.

Right now with the Obama green shift, it will try to make the same system but make it "green" That all good and green, but everyone will still be in massive debt. Slaves to the state. Don't worry big brother will take care of you.

This is an extraverted society that is going neurotic.

["?"]

Nah, Obama pretty much said the same thing on 60 minutes. To paraphrase, if this were '99 and we're at 4% unemployment and this crisis isn't happening let em fail... Which leads me back to my original point, great timing....After stating that I would prefer we let them take a nose dive, I read where Senator Jim Inhofe (R-OK) shared similar sentiments. I knew that if I was thinking like him, then I was missing the bigger picture. From what I recall from basic economics, we’re not experiencing an inflationary period, but a deflationary period. The only ingredient that prevents us from being thrown into a deep depression is a massive unemployment increase. So thank God that we have Obama in office to see the bigger picture since the Republican ideology is to not intervene in such matters.

[Rincon]

OMG, liek, this money stuff is soooo confusing, right?! But OMG I totally have the answer! They just need a houshold budget!!111!oneone1121

Like, Duh!

[geniusndisguise]

Everything is designed to last 10 years. We had tests for air conditioner pumps that would run for X hours that simulated 10 years of use. If the pump ran longer than that, something was removed and/or cheapened out.

So in every way they completely failed to remain competitive (lifespan, styling, fuel mileage, costs - as in they pay too much, etc.) and deserve to go under. I'd prefer they bail out the workers in some way than the companies.

[Thevenin]

In the US, the best engineers (i.e., most experience, best judgement, greatest skill) remain in engineering. Incompetent engineers go into management because: 1. they never liked (much less, loved) engineering, 2. never planned to actually do engineering, and 3. always were more interested in "management," which, in the car companies, is characterized as rule by morons. It is extremely difficult to be a good engineer with a moron for a boss.

This is all notwithstanding the UAW, which, even with its current "concessions" is still noncompetitive with the foreign car companies ensconced in Senator Shelby's state.

I fear the loss of engineering talent and those with product development and manufacturing experience.

[purveyor of truth]

In the US, the best engineers (i.e., most experience, best judgement, greatest skill) remain in engineering. Incompetent engineers go into management because: 1. they never liked (much less, loved) engineering, 2. never planned to actually do engineering, and 3. always were more interested in "management," which, in the car companies, is characterized as rule by morons. It is extremely difficult to be a good engineer with a moron for a boss.

This is all notwithstanding the UAW, which, even with its current "concessions" is still noncompetitive with the foreign car companies ensconced in Senator Shelby's state.

I fear the loss of engineering talent and those with product development and manufacturing experience.

I'm curious, is mechanical ability always a factor for success in mechanical engineering? Anybody know? Seems like it would be.

[Thevenin]

I'm curious, is mechanical ability always a factor for success in mechanical engineering? Anybody know? Seems like it would be.

If by "mechanical ability" you mean being able to do "bench work" or be a machinist or manually construct machines, etc., then no. The critical ability for a mechanical engineer is the ability to visualize mentally structures or machines both statically and dynamically in space. The best engineers of all types are the best mental emulators of systems. They can operate the system (be they mechanical, electronic, etc.) virtually within their minds and make design changes to the system all the while observing its behavior. This being said, most of the mechanical engineers I've known were good in the lab or shop. Indeed, some were even capable machinists.

[purveyor of truth]

If by "mechanical ability" you mean being able to do "bench work" or be a machinist or manually construct machines, etc., then no. The critical ability for a mechanical engineer is the ability to visualize mentally structures or machines both statically and dynamically in space. The best engineers of all types are the best mental emulators of systems. They can operate the system (be they mechanical, electronic, etc.) virtually within their minds and make design changes to the system all the while observing its behavior. This being said, most of the mechanical engineers I've known were good in the lab or shop. Indeed, some were even capable machinists.

Thats what I thought, I'd be one badass engineer then, dont want to be one though. My son is about to get his masters in it, I worry cause he cant visualize anything. I can build practically anything in my head then build it for real. *ducks more sensor accusations*

[hoodrich84]

let them die.

Somehow this economic failure thingy has reminded me the same of Life on earth.

People are doing ignorant things to destroy earth for example,
create global warming
mass genocide
and creating semen-based recipes

Would you let us homo sapiens die out then?

God has not let us fail. He has given us a second chance to keep living and is doing his best to let us redeem ourselves by not sinning or some sort of that nature.

So,
If we let the Big Three fail then it is similar to not letting the humans live because of their ignorance.

At first I wanted GM and Chrysler to die out but....
is it not them that has created jobs and are the core thingy that keeps business in America alive and together?

My thoughts and prayers are for the rednecks that are losing their jobs and cannot adapt elsewhere like working at a Honda company for minimum wage with the Asians or create semen-based recipes with Fotie Photenhauer.

:jesus:

[Ferrus]

God has not let us fail. He has given us a second chance to keep living and is doing his best to let us redeem ourselves by not sinning or some sort of that nature.

So,
If we let the Big Three fail then it is similar to not letting the humans live because of their ignorance.
Where shall I begin with the analysis of this. :no:

[doob]

Where shall I begin with the analysis of this. :no:

:unsure: Where would you begin?

[airjaw]

After stating that I would prefer we let them take a nose dive, I read where Senator Jim Inhofe (R-OK) shared similar sentiments. I knew that if I was thinking like him, then I was missing the bigger picture. From what I recall from basic economics, we’re not experiencing an inflationary period, but a deflationary period. The only ingredient that prevents us from being thrown into a deep depression is a massive unemployment increase. So thank God that we have Obama in office to see the bigger picture since the Republican ideology is to not intervene in such matters.

I don't even know where to begin with this. Just listen to yourself talk.

[kendoiwan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/opinion/13collins.html?th&emc=th


Some Democrats denounced the bill because they said that it was unfair that the union workers were getting dumped on while a lot of the Wall Street fat cats got to keep their golden parachutes. Republicans complained that it was unfair that General Motors paid its workers more than Toyota or Honda does. Many senators took the DeMint line and wanted to know what made the autoworkers’ jobs more important than the home builders or waitresses who were getting laid off, too...

The really hard lifting still lies ahead, and we cannot possibly do it if we’re going to dwell too much on the fairness thing. It’s just too easy for lawmakers to dodge the tough vote by reminding their constituents that somebody else is getting more breaks than they are.

Which somebody always is. If Senator DeMint’s constituents are going to riot over a bailout for the auto industry, they’ll wind up being met by tool-and-die makers waving torches and yelling about soybean subsidies. If the lawmakers from Alabama say their constituents do not want their tax money going to bail out Michigan, the people in Michigan are going to say that they never really enjoyed paying more taxes to the federal government than their state received in aid, while Alabama got a return of $1.61 on the dollar. And anytime a representative from the Great Plains opens his mouth, the people from New York are going to point out that while every state gets the same number of senators, there are more people waiting for a subway in Brooklyn in rush hour than inhabit all of Wyoming.

We can really get tiresome on the subject. You don’t want to go there.

[airjaw]

I still think the federal gov't has too much money, and shouldn't be in the position of deciding whom gets "aid" or a "bailout" or which state gets aid for rebuilding its crumbling infrastructure. If michigan wants to use its own tax dollars to bail out their auto companies, so be it. When you start pooling every states' money you're gonna get 100 or so senators squabbling over what is fair and whom should get what.

[kendoiwan]

I still think the federal gov't has too much money, and shouldn't be in the position of deciding whom gets "aid" or a "bailout" or which state gets aid for rebuilding its crumbling infrastructure. If michigan wants to use its own tax dollars to bail out their auto companies, so be it. When you start pooling every states' money you're gonna get 100 or so senators squabbling over what is fair and whom should get what.

We already had a war to settle that point...

[MCYhon]

In the US, the best engineers (i.e., most experience, best judgement, greatest skill) remain in engineering. Incompetent engineers go into management because: 1. they never liked (much less, loved) engineering, 2. never planned to actually do engineering, and 3. always were more interested in "management," which, in the car companies, is characterized as rule by morons. It is extremely difficult to be a good engineer with a moron for a boss.

This is all notwithstanding the UAW, which, even with its current "concessions" is still noncompetitive with the foreign car companies ensconced in Senator Shelby's state.

I fear the loss of engineering talent and those with product development and manufacturing experience.

well, i think once they go into management, the higher management people will tell those engineer managers to only look at profit maximization anyway. The whole North American business education is fucked, in which they only care to think about rising profit, disregarding the people...
that's why the world is so fucked up, it's only profit driven.
i study IT management, and the education i am getting is how to get and sustain competitive advantage. There is nothing else important other than profit. I hate my program... but i have one more semester left, so i will finish it.

[walfin]

The layoffs might create more wannabe entrepreneurs than ever. When you're desperate, you start racking your brains to think of ways to earn money. Even if the majority of the laid off workers might just make a lot of noise and whine about how the government's not caring about their families, there could be a good 10% willing to strike out on their own.


There is nothing else important other than profit.
I thought the current trend was to talk about non-financial "key performance indicators", even if ultimately these are seen as ways to increase profit in the long run.

[Chunes]

The layoffs might create more wannabe entrepreneurs than ever. When you're desperate, you start racking your brains to think of ways to earn money.

Really? I never experience that. I just sorta glaze over until I lose everything.

[purveyor of truth]

I was just reading on CNNs website that half of all auto sales this month are trucks and suvs partly because of gas prices. So the big 3 should build less of them and build even more stuff people arent buying like fuel efficient cars?

[SensEye]

I was just reading on CNNs website that half of all auto sales this month are trucks and suvs partly because of gas prices. So the big 3 should build less of them and build even more stuff people arent buying like fuel efficient cars?One has to love the short sightedness of American consumers.

First it was, woohoo, house prices never go down, re-finance. Now it appears to be woohoo, gas prices are down for good. Yeah, that won't change.

Back on topic, auto-makers can do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't use my tax dollars to do it. That is the bottom line, auto-making is a business not a sacred cow. They have risks just like all businesses. The public should not be funding them. TEOTWAWKI will not occur because a few excess capacity autoworkers lose their jobs, not that you would know it from the industry lobbyists.

[purveyor of truth]

One has to love the short sightedness of American consumers.

First it was, woohoo, house prices never go down, re-finance. Now it appears to be woohoo, gas prices are down for good. Yeah, that won't change.

Back on topic, auto-makers can do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't use my tax dollars to do it. That is the bottom line, auto-making is a business not a sacred cow. They have risks just like all businesses. The public should not be funding them. TEOTWAWKI will not occur because a few excess capacity autoworkers lose their jobs, not that you would know it from the industry lobbyists.

One can only imagine the clusterfuck that would/will come with a government Car Czar.

[C.J.Woolf]

I'm hoping they call the Car Czar the Autocrat.

[Lee]

Unions have forced the wages of auto industry employees far higher than would prevail in a free market (unions are a kind of cartel with state protection). For the same price that one job could be saved in a GM factory, two could be created in a Honda factory.

Subsidising the "Big Three" will save particular jobs at the expense of the many more jobs which will not be created. In the long term (a year or more) unemployment will be worse while these unionised workers enjoy their high wages and job protections at the expense of everyone else (especially the unemployed who cannot find work because resources were redirected to politically connected auto industry workers).