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ryan_m_parr
27 Nov 2008, 12:03 PM
Indian navy boarding suspicious ship off Mumbai (AP) (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081127/ap_on_re_as/as_india_shooting)

AP - The Indian navy says its forces are boarding a cargo vessel suspected of ties to the Mumbai attacks that killed 101 people.

(Pakistan might be a target for us)


By ANITA CHANG, Associated Press Writer
3 mins ago
MUMBAI, India – A trickle of bodies and hostages emerged from a luxury hotel Thursday as Indian commandoes tried to free people trapped by suspected Muslim militants who attacked at least 10 targets in India's financial capital of Mumbai, killing 101 people.
More than 300 were also wounded in the highly coordinated attacks Wednesday night by bands of gunmen who invaded two five star hotels, a popular restaurant, a crowded train station, a Jewish center and at least five other sites, armed with assault rifles, hand grenades and explosives.
A previously unknown Islamic militant group claimed responsibility for the carnage, the latest in a series of nationwide terror attacks over the past three years that have dented India's image as an industrious nation galloping toward prosperity.
Among the dead were at least one Australian, a Japanese and a British national, said Pradeep Indulkar, a senior government official of Maharashtra state, whose capital is Mumbai. The Italian Foreign Ministry in Rome said an Italian was also killed.
Indulkar said 101 people were killed and 314 injured. Officials said eight militants were also killed.
The most high-profile target was the Taj Mahal Palace and Tower hotel, a landmark of Mumbai luxury since 1903, and a favorite watering hole of the city's elite.
The attackers, dressed in black shirts and jeans, stormed into the hotel at about 9:45 p.m. and opened fire indiscriminately.
"I was in the main lobby and there was all of a sudden a lot of firing outside," said Sajjad Karim, part of a delegation of European lawmakers visiting Mumbai before a European Union-India summit.
Suddenly "another gunmen appeared in front of us, carrying machine gun-type weapons. And he just started firing at us ... I just turned and ran in the opposite direction," he told The Associated Press over his mobile phone.
The shooting was followed by a series of explosions that set fire to parts of the century-old edifice on Mumbai's waterfront. Screams were heard and black smoke and flames billowed, continuing to burn until dawn.
Dalbir Bains, who runs a lingerie shop in Mumbai, was about to eat her steak by the pool at the hotel when she heard the sound of gunfire. She said she ran upstairs, taking refuge in the Sea Lounge restaurant, with about 50 other people.
They huddled beneath tables in the dark, trying to remain as quiet as possible while explosions were going off.
"We were trying not to draw attention to ourselves," she said. The group managed to escape before dawn.
The gunmen also seized the Mumbai headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch and attacked the Oberoi Hotel, another five-star landmark.
The gunmen appeared to be holed up inside all three buildings on Thursday, nearly 18 hours later, holding foreign and local hostages, as Indian commandos surrounded the buildings.
Among those foreigners held captive were Americans, British, Italians, Swedes, Canadians, Yemenis, New Zealanders, Spaniards, Turks, a Singaporean and Israelis.
"We're going to catch them dead or alive," Maharashtra Home Minister R. R. Patil told reporters. "An attack on Mumbai is an attack on the rest of the country."
Gunfire and explosions were heard from the Taj Mahal, the Oberoi and the Chabad facility.
"It seems that the terrorists commandeered a police vehicle which allowed them easy access to the area of the Chabad house," said a spokesman for the Lubavitch movement in New York, Rabbi Zalman Shmotkin.
Around 10:30 a.m., a woman, a child and an Indian cook were seen being led out of the building by police, said one witness.
The child was identified as Moshe Holtzberg, 2, the son of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the main representative at Chabad house. The child was unharmed, but his clothes were soaked in blood.
Sandra Samuel,44, the cook who pulled the boy out the building, said she saw Rabbi Holzberg, his wife Rivka and two other unidentified guests lying on the floor, apparently "unconscious.
Police loudspeakers declared a curfew around the Taj Mahal hotel, and black-clad commandos ran into the building as fresh gunshots rang out from the area.
Soldiers outside the hotel said the operation would take a long time as forces were moving slowly, from room to room, looking for gunmen and traps. Every body found had to be checked by sniffer dogs, said one senior officer on condition of anonymity.
In the afternoon, bodies and hostages slowly emerged from the building. At least three bodies, covered in white cloth, were wheeled out.
About a dozen hostages including foreigners were also evacuated from the hotel and whisked into a waiting ambulance. Several of them carried small pieces of luggage. One older man was carried into the ambulance by police.
At the nearby Oberoi hotel, soldiers could be seen on the roof of neighboring buildings. A banner hung out of one window read "save us." From the road, no one could be seen inside the room.
At least three top Indian police officers — including the chief of the anti-terror squad — were among those killed, said and A.N. Roy, a top police official.
The attackers appeared to have been targeting Britons and Americans.
Alex Chamberlain, a British citizen who was dining at the Oberoi, told Sky News television that a gunman ushered 30 to 40 people from the restaurant into a stairway and, speaking in Hindi or Urdu, ordered everyone to put up their hands.
"They were talking about British and Americans specifically. There was an Italian guy, who, you know, they said: 'Where are you from?" and he said he's from Italy and they said 'fine' and they left him alone. And I thought: 'Fine, they're going to shoot me if they ask me anything — and thank God they didn't," he said.
Chamberlain said he managed to slip away as the patrons were forced to walk up stairs, but he thought much of the group was being held hostage.
The United States and Pakistan were among the countries that condemned the attacks.
In Washington, White House press secretary Dana Perino said the U.S. "condemns this terrorist attack and we will continue to stand with the people of India in this time of tragedy."
The motive for the onslaught was not immediately clear, but Mumbai has frequently been targeted in terrorist attacks blamed on Islamic extremists, including a series of bombings in July 2006 that killed 187 people.
Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism specialist with the Swedish National Defense College, said there are "very strong suspicions" that the coordinated Mumbai attacks have a link to al-Qaida.
He said the fact that Britons and Americans were singled out is one indicator, along with the coordinated style of the attacks.
"There have been a lot of warnings about India lately and there are very strong suspicions of a link to al-Qaida."
Later Thursday the Indian navy said its forces were boarding a cargo vessel suspected of ties to the attacks.
Navy spokesman Capt. Manohar Nambiar said Thursday that the ship, the MV Alpha, had recently come to Mumbai from Karachi, Pakistan.
The navy has "located the ship and now we are in the process of boarding it and searching it," he said. Earlier, Indian media showed pictures of black and yellow rubber dinghies found by the shore, apparently used by the gunmen to reach the area.
Mumbai, on the western coast of India overlooking the Arabian Sea, is home to splendid Victorian architecture built during the British Raj and is one of the most populated cities in the world with some 18 million crammed into shantytowns, high rises and crumbling mansions.
An Indian media report said a previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen claimed responsibility for the attacks in e-mails to several media outlets. There was no way to verify that claim.
Among the other places attacked was the 19th century Chhatrapati Shivaji railroad station — a beautiful example of Victorian Gothic architecture — where gunmen sprayed bullets into the crowded terminal, leaving the floor splattered with blood.
"They just fired randomly at people and then ran away. In seconds, people fell to the ground," said Nasim Inam, a witness.
Other gunmen attacked Leopold's restaurant, a landmark popular with foreigners, and the police headquarters in southern Mumbai, the area where most of the attacks took place. Gunmen also attacked Cama and Albless Hospital and G.T. Hospital, though it was not immediately clear if anyone was killed.
India has been wracked by bomb attacks the past three years, which police blame on Muslim militants intent on destabilizing this largely Hindu country. Nearly 700 people have died.
Since May a militant group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen has taken credit for a string of blasts that killed more than 130 people. The most recent was in September, when explosions struck a park and crowded shopping areas in the capital, New Delhi, killing 21 people and wounding about 100.
Relations between Hindus, who make up more than 80 percent of India's 1 billion population, and Muslims, who make up about 14 percent, have sporadically erupted into bouts of sectarian violence since British-ruled India was split into independent India and Pakistan in 1947.
___
Associated Press writers Ramola Talwar Badam, Erika Kinetz and Jenny Barchfield in Mumbai, Raphael G. Satter in London and Cristian Salazar in New York contributed to this report.

Ferrus
27 Nov 2008, 12:12 PM
India actually has more Muslims that Pakistan - it should be no surprise.

skip
27 Nov 2008, 03:34 PM
We had dinner in an Indian restaurant last night and this was all anyone was talking about, what crazy, stupid people there are in the world.

kuranes
27 Nov 2008, 06:14 PM
IIRC the restaurant "Leopold's" was also a main watering hole in the Shantaram novel. Funny to see it as part of a real life drama, although Shantaram was supposedly based on real life experience.

ryan_m_parr
28 Nov 2008, 08:17 PM
An update : 150 killed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_india_shooting)

syzygy
28 Nov 2008, 10:41 PM
I guess as the token Indian INTP, I should comment here. The situation is kind of terrifying.
I was pretty shaken yesterday, especially since it was Thanksgiving here, and we were celebrating. I talked to my parents, and they are glued to the television, and it seems like the whole country is depressed. I feel so removed from the whole situation - India seems to be reacting to this like the US reacted to 9/11, even though the scale isn't so grand. The Anti-Terrorist Squad chief and two of his main deputies were killed, and that's definitely a huge deal.

The Deccan/Indian Mujahideen has claimed responsibility, but all of the militant groups in India like to claim responsibility for things like this. No one actually knows who planned and executed this.

MacGuffin
29 Nov 2008, 12:30 AM
How many of the terrorists were caught/killed? Do they know how many were involved?

thod
29 Nov 2008, 03:46 PM
Why kill tourists and blow up hotels? They are not important. Kill some soldiers nobody cares there a millions in the slums that can recruited to replace them. These terrorists are just dumb. They should go after targets that will do some damage. If they had been trained as snipers to take out politicians, judges etc they would be a lot more effective. Blowing up the TV transmitter spire would be far more effective since the government couldn't issue its messages of reassurance, and its unguarded. Take out the oil pipeline and watch the cars come to a halt.

These terrorists cant be so stupid that they think shooting up a hotel matters. I conclude its a friendly flag attack designed to cause outrage but no real damage. We will no doubt see massive funding increases for the police state and draconian curbing of civil liberties. Its a tryed and tested formula. There are no terrorists apart from the ones permitted.

syzygy
29 Nov 2008, 06:42 PM
How many of the terrorists were caught/killed? Do they know how many were involved?

Wikipedia probably has a good consolidated article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2008_Mumbai_attacks) - there have been so many reports. I think it's all still somewhat unclear, though.


Why kill tourists and blow up hotels? They are not important. Kill some soldiers nobody cares there a millions in the slums that can recruited to replace them. These terrorists are just dumb. They should go after targets that will do some damage. If they had been trained as snipers to take out politicians, judges etc they would be a lot more effective. Blowing up the TV transmitter spire would be far more effective since the government couldn't issue its messages of reassurance, and its unguarded. Take out the oil pipeline and watch the cars come to a halt.

These terrorists cant be so stupid that they think shooting up a hotel matters. I conclude its a friendly flag attack designed to cause outrage but no real damage. We will no doubt see massive funding increases for the police state and draconian curbing of civil liberties. Its a tryed and tested formula. There are no terrorists apart from the ones permitted.

While I agree that this causes nothing but outrage and distraction, I really don't think it's a "friendly flag attack." I'm pretty sure India will not curb civil liberties or increase funding all THAT massively for the defence. Terrorist attacks are pretty damn common in India (so common that I dismissed the first reports of the incidents in Mumbai as "just another bomb blast.") How would you justify the statement that there are no terrorists apart from the ones permitted?

On a side note, I'm glad that terrorists aren't as effective as they could be, and aren't blowing up oil pipelines or taking out TV towers - that is much less harmful.

anvilmaster
29 Nov 2008, 06:50 PM
Why kill tourists and blow up hotels? They are not important. Kill some soldiers nobody cares there a millions in the slums that can recruited to replace them. These terrorists are just dumb. They should go after targets that will do some damage. If they had been trained as snipers to take out politicians, judges etc they would be a lot more effective. Blowing up the TV transmitter spire would be far more effective since the government couldn't issue its messages of reassurance, and its unguarded. Take out the oil pipeline and watch the cars come to a halt.


I don't think they are out to create real damage at this point. I think the idea is that if they took out tourists and hotels, its a bigger deal than killing soldiers- it would become an international affair. They want people to know about them, attention is the idea, not damage

nonperson
29 Nov 2008, 08:09 PM
India actually has more Muslims that Pakistan - it should be no surprise.

There more Roman Catholics than Sikhs too.

Oso Mocoso
29 Nov 2008, 10:31 PM
They want people to know about them, attention is the idea, not damage

Yes, they want to draw attention to their cause. Also, if the government cracks down on them in a draconian fashion, they will gather popular sympathy, donations of money and fresh recruits. I don't know how the Indian government typically responds to these kinds of incidents, but it took the U.K. a long time to develop effective tactics for defanging the insurgents in northern Ireland.

Calling this a friendly flag attack is far-fetched. The draconian response Thod was talking about is precisely the best thing that could happen from the terrorist's perspective.

syzygy
30 Nov 2008, 12:02 AM
I don't know how the Indian government typically responds to these kinds of incidents

They typically respond by making periodic statements about how the police is actively searching for suspects, but have had no luck. Sometimes they arrest people, hold them in custody for a few months, and then release them after all the fuss has died down.

quantumzero
30 Nov 2008, 12:25 AM
How many of the terrorists were caught/killed? Do they know how many were involved?

last I heard, they were questioning the only surving gunman, and he kept saying there were only ten total gunmen involved, total, as in no affiliation with any other organization. pff! who the hell knows.

lowtech redneck
30 Nov 2008, 10:21 AM
I don't know how the Indian government typically responds to these kinds of incidents, but it took the U.K. a long time to develop effective tactics for defanging the insurgents in northern Ireland.


Frankly, I don't think the British ever did develop effective tactics for defanging the IRA, considering the fact the they are now one of the four dominant parties in Northern Ireland. If the British had been successful, then the secessionist would all be voting for the Social Democratic and Labour party.

thod
30 Nov 2008, 04:00 PM
Frankly, I don't think the British ever did develop effective tactics for defanging the IRA, considering the fact the they are now one of the four dominant parties in Northern Ireland. If the British had been successful, then the secessionist would all be voting for the Social Democratic and Labour party.

It was always about who ruled who. By remaining British the protestant majority in the north got to run the state as they liked, hacking off the catholics. Meanwhile the catholics wanted a united Ireland so that they would be the majority and make the rules, hacking off the protestants.

The big change came with the rise of the EU. Now you could cross the border at will, live and work anywhere in the EU that you pleased. The centralized EU rulings even brought some conformity to local rules making it harder for one group to oppress another. So the reasons for the original fight sort of disappeared. If you don't like Belfast then move to Dublin and vice versa. There was also some softening off attitudes, although still nominal catholics few Irishmen now see condoms as evil incarnate rather than a piece of rubber. The area simply grew up and decided it was better to concentrate on getting richer than shooting the guy next door. Most Irish I have met are not that religious anyhow, it was more similar to a gang thing. Stick to your gang for protection and hate the other because they beat up your side just as you do to them.

I am not sure if the Irish governments position changed. When the IRA were bombing London, I heard many calls for the UK to back the other side to make sure they bombed Dublin in response. Thankfully it didn't happen, it would have inevitably lead to the UK invading and once again ruling Ireland. The population differences are such that such a conflict would have been very one sided.

I suspect most Englishmen would happily give northern Ireland away. Its a drain on the economy. But the northern Irish insist they have the right to stay British. So the only solution will be for England to withdraw from Britain and leave all the parasitic edge regions to fend for themselves.

wreckoning
30 Nov 2008, 05:38 PM
Take out the oil pipeline and watch the cars come to a halt.

I think a lot of these kinds of targets already have a lot of protections on them right now anyway? I live in Canada and a friend of mine was telling me about the security involved in the nuclear power plant where he works as a top tech. He said there's a small military outpost stationed with the sole intent of protecting the plant from some kind of attack. They have regular drills with stuff like helicoptors and even a couple submarines that live inside the lake the plant borders.

Anyway if Jughead says, "The situation is kind of terrifying.
... I talked to my parents, and they are glued to the television, and it seems like the whole country is depressed." ... I wouldn't call that "unimportant" ... the mood of the nation is important, and worth controlling.

Oso Mocoso
30 Nov 2008, 06:30 PM
Frankly, I don't think the British ever did develop effective tactics for defanging the IRA, considering the fact the they are now one of the four dominant parties in Northern Ireland. If the British had been successful, then the secessionist would all be voting for the Social Democratic and Labour party.

Depends on what you mean by defang. I don't think the Brits expected the IRA to give up their political agenda completely, but they definitely wanted them to stop blowing shit up and stop shooting people. The fact of the matter is that when the military response to terrorist activities started being a little more sensitive to the effect they had on the neighborhoods where the terrorists operated, the terrorists had less popular support. When the military would just go in all heavy-handed and terrorize people in response, the terrorists seemed like they were the good guys.

Ferrus
1 Dec 2008, 07:21 PM
Depends on what you mean by defang. I don't think the Brits expected the IRA to give up their political agenda completely, but they definitely wanted them to stop blowing shit up and stop shooting people. The fact of the matter is that when the military response to terrorist activities started being a little more sensitive to the effect they had on the neighborhoods where the terrorists operated, the terrorists had less popular support. When the military would just go in all heavy-handed and terrorize people in response, the terrorists seemed like they were the good guys.
Well, an element of population fatigue (which is happening in the Middle East somewhat) and economic growth helped nip the movement in the bud. And if a similar things occurs in the Islamic lands, then it will be this. However, the open sore that is Israel and the pivotal role of oil are powerful fuels to keep the hatred burning.

krauser
1 Dec 2008, 09:12 PM
The number of people killed has reached 190.

I live in Delhi,India.The reports are that some terrorists are still free and that the original plan was to kill 3000 people.The plan was coordinated and terrorists were very well trained.

The political blame game has started.But this time around people have this sort of 'enough is enough' feeling.One top minister has resigned and the state's CM Vilas Rao Deshmukh is under public pressure.

Actually,he went to the home of one of the soldiers who died fighting the terrorists.The soldier's father DENIED HIM ENTRY.He absolutely refused to entertain any politician in his house.

This was mainly because this Vilasrao was primarily responsible for the delaying action against the terrorists.And obviously,he must abhor these vulture-like politicians who try to make the "best" of the carnage.

Basically,there is public outrage.Let's see what happens.

rainfall
1 Dec 2008, 10:18 PM
Someone needs to make a counter-strike map of the hotel.

ryan_m_parr
3 Dec 2008, 01:01 AM
Pakistani group, Lashkar, is publicly identified as the perpetrator (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081203/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_india_shooting)

syzygy
3 Dec 2008, 01:18 AM
I live in Delhi,India.

You mean I'm not the only Indian here? Hooray!

krauser
4 Dec 2008, 06:56 PM
You mean I'm not the only Indian here? Hooray!

Yup.Though being an INTP in India is like being in a "survivor" challenge.

The CM resigned.Though bombs are being found in other cities.

One was found like 200 meters from my house today(I live near a court, that's where)

____________________________________

Yeah,with enough soap,we can blow up just about anything.