The Beef in Greece

[kendoiwan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/world/europe/08greece.html?th&emc=th

Youths angry over the killing of a teenager by the police took to the streets in Athens and other Greek cities for a second day on Sunday, burning shops, cars and businesses in the worst rioting in recent years.

When's the last time anyone rioted in the U.S. over gov't corruption and police injustice? At least a decade. We've come to accept the stat quo it seems... :dont:

[Vagabond]

Eh. While the cop is a bastard who deserves to rot in jail, don't fool yourself thinking the killing of the boy was anything but an excuse to burn and destroy. And they can kiss my ass if they really believe that they're fighting corruption or capitalism or the establishment by burning down cars that the already burdened middle-class people are still paying installments for, or small shops who are on the verge of bankruptcy and are in dept for the Christmas products they were counting on selling.

Meanwhile, who bothers with the corruption scandals these last few days? No one. They will slip to oblivion behind the smokescreen of the country being burned down by packs of brainwashed morons who actually think they are changing the status quo. :dont:

[A Schnitzel]

:drool: I love greek beef.

[kendoiwan]

Eh. While the cop is a bastard who deserves to rot in jail, don't fool yourself thinking the killing of the boy was anything but an excuse to burn and destroy. And they can kiss my ass if they really believe that they're fighting corruption or capitalism or the establishment by burning down cars that the already burdened middle-class people are still paying installments for, or small shops who are on the verge of bankruptcy and are in dept for the Christmas products they were counting on selling.

Meanwhile, who bothers with the corruption scandals these last few days? No one. They will slip to oblivion behind the smokescreen of the country being burned down by packs of brainwashed morons who actually think they are changing the status quo. :dont:

Granted. But short of a coup, what is there for people to do iyo?

[pan_sonic_000]

When's the last time anyone rioted in the U.S. over gov't corruption and police injustice? At least a decade. We've come to accept the stat quo it seems... :dont:

...or maybe we realize that in modern society, rioting creates more problems then it solves.

[edge walker]

Granted. But short of a coup, what is there for people to do iyo?
I think you have an inapplicable idea of “the people” in the case of Greece. It’s not infrequently hard to even tell the factions apart when they’re away from the battlefield (or “battlefield”). Hell, this time both the students and the cops were throwing stones – the only indication left is who’s wearing the uniforms. Someone I know once said Greece is the only African country that doesn’t have blacks. That’s offensive on some levels, but based on accounts from people who have actually lived in Africa it’s actually even more astute than it is offensive.

[purveyor of truth]

I think a well thought out, well executed riot is neccessary once in a while. unfortunately riots seldom are.

[Oso Mocoso]

When's the last time anyone rioted in the U.S. over gov't corruption and police injustice? At least a decade.

... and thank God for that. When people riot they always seem to want to go nuts and fuck up their own neighborhoods. Why? How does that ever help?

[lowtech redneck]

Granted. But short of a coup, what is there for people to do iyo?

Little things like peacefully assemble, vote in elections, etc. Rioting in a liberal democracy is stupid, and says a lot more about the rioters than the status quo they are allegedly rioting against.

[SensEye]

Little things like peacefully assemble, vote in elections, etc. Rioting in a liberal democracy is stupid, and says a lot more about the rioters than the status quo they are allegedly rioting against.
I was going to say "vote intelligently". Alas, people have been failing to do this for so long nobody believes it's possible. In fact, it often appears intelligent people with any sort of principles no longer even run for office.

[sandwich]

Someone I know once said Greece is the only African country that doesn’t have blacks. That’s offensive on some levels, but based on accounts from people who have actually lived in Africa it’s actually even more astute than it is offensive.

I'm sure I'm taking some kind of bait here, but I always thought Greece was in Europe?

[edge walker]

I’m sure I’m taking some kind of bait here, but I always thought Greece was in Europe?
Yeah, of course, that’s the punchline. I’m… not sure I can really explain it to someone non-Greek. There’s a whole thicket of societal issues captured in it, the core theme being a pervasive tribalism that people in more Western societies probably can’t even relate to.

[kendoiwan]

Little things like peacefully assemble, vote in elections, etc. Rioting in a liberal democracy is stupid, and says a lot more about the rioters than the status quo they are allegedly rioting against.


I was going to say "vote intelligently". Alas, people have been failing to do this for so long nobody believes it's possible. In fact, it often appears intelligent people with any sort of principles no longer even run for office.
Peaceful assembly and voting intelligently has changed what in the last 3 or 4 decades I ask? People protested the whole Bush era to what end? People all over the world protest at ever single G8, WTO, and World Bank meeting to what end exactly?

... and thank God for that. When people riot they always seem to want to go nuts and fuck up their own neighborhoods. Why? How does that ever help?

Detroit is a testament to that...

[sandwich]

Yeah, of course, that’s the punchline. I’m… not sure I can really explain it to someone non-Greek. There’s a whole thicket of societal issues captured in it, the core theme being a pervasive tribalism that people in more Western societies probably can’t even relate to.

I wouldn't say I'm familiar with Greek culture, but I get what you mean. I expected that were only being a little racist, not quite that much.

[lowtech redneck]

Peaceful assembly and voting intelligently has changed what in the last 3 or 4 decades I ask? People protested the whole Bush era to what end? People all over the world protest at ever single G8, WTO, and World Bank meeting to what end exactly?


Yeah, democracy is pointless, we should just pick a bunch of super-human Guardians to force us to do things.

As for people (peacefully) protesting the Bush era, it helped build up and maintain popular and energized opposition to the Bush presidency-hell, a substantial portion of Obama supporters were even unaware that the Democrats had controlled congress for the past two years, the agenda-setting power of those sustained (and peaceful) protests/democratic opposition was that powerful. As for G8 or WTO protests, anti-globalization activists are hardly demobilized, they just havn't managed to convince most people that they are right-mostly because movements toward economic protectionism and autarky have seldom worked well, and people have finally figured that much out.

[edge walker]

I expected that were only being a little racist, not quite that much.
It doesn’t actually have to be in order to be astute, depending on what presuppositions you assume. But the guy who said it wasn’t a master of subtlety, certainly not to such an extent.

[kendoiwan]

Yeah, democracy is pointless, we should just pick a bunch of super-human Guardians to force us to do things.

As for people (peacefully) protesting the Bush era, it helped build up and maintain popular and energized opposition to the Bush presidency-hell, a substantial portion of Obama supporters were even unaware that the Democrats had controlled congress for the past two years, the agenda-setting power of those sustained (and peaceful) protests/democratic opposition was that powerful. As for G8 or WTO protests, anti-globalization activists are hardly demobilized, they just havn't managed to convince most people that they are right-mostly because movements toward economic protectionism and autarky have seldom worked well, and people have finally figured that much out.

I think you're giving too much credit to the protestors. They weren't any less vocal or organized during Kerry's run. Their rabble rousing didn't get Obama elected, the economic meltdown did.

As for your argument in favor the the WTO and G8, it rings hollow in light of the same said meltdown:mellow:

[Zephyrus055]

You can't challenge the elite. The best you can do is join them.

[lowtech redneck]

I think you're giving too much credit to the protestors. They weren't any less vocal or organized during Kerry's run. Their rabble rousing didn't get Obama elected, the economic meltdown did.


They were one among several factors, but if it were Bush running for a third term, the general election would not have been close up to the economic meltdown-I thinksustained and committed democratic opposition had a lot to do with that-if nothing else, moderate and/or uncommitted voters tend to dislike controversial politicians.

As for the current economic meltdown and policies leading to the same, that's an issue of the (varying) optimal balance between regulation and the free market in diverse subsets of the economy, not international free trade.

[kendoiwan]

You can't challenge the elite. The best you can do is join them.

Seems that way. Which is why I can't knock a good riot, although I definitely share Oso's sentiment about location, go riot where it counts dammit!

[drdolittle]

Elites go down every so often and then slowly regain their power. Don't join them.
I think the establishment at least got a good scare about 30-40 years ago, it's time they had another. Sure riots suck but they're a way to build up morale among your warriors. It would be great to have one in the Hamptons or at Bush's ranch.
Don't think voting at the national level will make any difference. It's a one party system with two factions. It's tax and spend dems or don't tax and still spend even more repubs. Remember, what they spend comes from the working stiffs. The Kennedys and Rockefellers don't pay much tax.
I would say vote at the local and state level but it's really hard to stay on top of everything you need to
Instead, don't participate as much as you can. Pay as little tax as possible. Look for every loophole. Don't consume, it doesn't make you happy anyway. Fix your own stuff and reuse it.Walk places or ride your bike. Let the economy go sour and spend the extra time with your fam

[drdolittle]

Join the marches when the shit really hits the fan. It'll be fun to be there. Think of the million man march when MLK was leading, how much fun would that be? You know those guys were scared of that.

[kendoiwan]

Join the marches when the shit really hits the fan. It'll be fun to be there. Think of the million man march when MLK was leading, how much fun would that be? You know those guys were scared of that.

Well that is why they killed him after all...

[Promethean]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/world/europe/08greece.html?th&emc=th


When's the last time anyone rioted in the U.S. over gov't corruption and police injustice? At least a decade. We've come to accept the stat quo it seems... :dont:

It's long past time for a serious uprising in the US. Almost every politician and lobbyist in DC needs to be dragged into the street and executed. It would at least be a little while before the next people started violating every aspect of the document that gives them responsibilities (not power) involving almost 300 million people. The military should be confronting the government right now if they were to fulfill their oath. They are sworn to defend the Constitution (not the governemnt) against enemies both foreign and domestic. The greatest enemy of the Constitution being the government, the military is delinquent in it's duties.

Whatever though I'm an anarchist now and am only interested in ducking the system as much as possible. There isn't enough spine left in the US to fight anyway.

[kendoiwan]

mKHktOyXl0c

[Promethean]

What an inspiring video! Thanks K. I feel like making myself a cocktail.

[kendoiwan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_on_re_eu/eu_greece_riots


Demonstrators in France and Germany put on shows of support for the Greeks protests, which are driven in part by the widening gap between rich and poor in a country where the minimum monthly wage is euro658 ($850), graduates have poor job prospects and the government is making painful reforms to the pension system.

"It is clear that this wave of discontent will not die down. This rage is spreading because the underlying causes remain," said veteran left-wing politician Leonidas Kyrkos. "These protests are a vehicle with which people can claim their rights and shatter indifference and false promises."

As for the location concerns that were raised the article goes on to state
The level of violence has abated but tear gas and the smoke from burned cars still hang in the air in central Athens. Hundreds of businesses have been burned or smashed and looted in cities across Greece. Banks in particular have been targeted, with terrified employees fleeing as protesters smashed recently replaced windows of branches along central Syntagma Square.

"Financial targets are being attacked, like banks, to prove a point of economic oppression ... some people hardly have enough eat," said Constantinos Sakkas, a 23-year-old protest organizer.

"We're against the attacks on small stores," he added. "The purpose of all this is for our demands to be heard. This just isn't for us. It's for everyone."

Fight the power!!!

[Ellipsis]

I never approve of violence in ANY situation there are peaceful ways to deal with problems in government sure they are less noticeable and sometimes not fully effective but it is right way to get stuff done. The majority of these people are just idiots looking for an excuse.

[kendoiwan]

I never approve of violence in ANY situation there are peaceful ways to deal with problems in government sure they are less noticeable and sometimes not fully effective but it is right way to get stuff done. The majority of these people are just idiots looking for an excuse.

:mellow: You have GOT to be kidding me...

[Ellipsis]

:mellow: You have GOT to be kidding me...

No, I am not kidding riots sound all cool and stuff but it quickly goes out of control. People get hurt, people die and in the end all you have is anarchy. There are more peaceful ways to deal with such situations city/country wide strikes would quickly kill corruption.Even if they were just restricted to non-critical services.

[edge walker]

The one thing that’s certain is that the riots have dealt by far the most damage to people whose guilt is more than debatable. The cure is much worse than the disease so far, and whether it even cures anything on a long-term basis remains to be seen. Please pardon me for being rather sceptical that it will.

[Vagabond]

The one thing that’s certain is that the riots have dealt by far the most damage to people whose guilt is more than debatable. The cure is much worse than the disease so far, and whether it even cures anything on a long-term basis remains to be seen. Please pardon me for being rather sceptical that it will.
Exactly.

I could see some point in it, if it actually were a whole nation protesting (heck, I'd be happy with 50/50), and if it actually aimed at changing things for the better. The way things went, a vocal minority burned and destroyed for a few days, and when they were happy they burned enough vehicles and shops belonging to the people whose rights they supposedly fought for, they pretty much went back to the coziness of their unburned homes, continuing their life with the money their daddy didn't lose, as his business was not burned down.

Meanwhile, they didn't change shit. The economy is worse than ever, the damage will be paid for by the plebes as usually, and the lower and middle class will struggle even more, as many people will lose their jobs, since their workplace has been destroyed. So excuse me, but they were not "the people", they were not fighting for "the people", they are assholes who took their frustrations and angst out on innocent people. Fuck them.

You know when revolutions are successful? When people actually want them to happen. Yeah, the situation was not good anyway, but I don't see why a change for the worse is fixing things. And again, do not assume the whole fuss was about the kid who was killed by the asshat cop, that was just an excuse; it's not like they haven't tried to cause chaos before - this time they were just beter organised.

And if you're wondering - no, they are not anarchists, even though they claim to be; they are lame cowards who don't know shit about what anarchy is about, they just think it's a cool title to use.

:mad:

[LazyReed]

Lets distinguish between property damage and violence, because they're different. Violence directly hurts sentient beings, property damage doesn't. This isn't to say that property damage can't indirectly do harm, like when it causes innocent people to lose capital or assets.

Also...we shouldn't judge the riots as a meaningful event in themselves, because as was said before, there really wasn't a coherent reasoning behind them. Rather, they're symptomatic of the global state of class/material/psychological friction. (whether it's only capitalism to blame is another story)

Of course, some of the rioters are revolutionaries intent on toppling the government, but some of them are just middle class kids frustrated and desperate to be recognized.


P.S Kill capitalism before it kills you, Americans.

[lowtech redneck]

Lets distinguish between property damage and violence, because they're different. Violence directly hurts sentient beings, property damage doesn't. This isn't to say that property damage can't indirectly do harm, like when it causes innocent people to lose capital or assets.


I would rather be punched in the face than to lose a store/car/material assets I spent a huge percentage of my precious time on this earth accumulating and maintaining. Fuck the rioters, they should be arrested, fined, and in some cases jailed.

[edge walker]

The Big Picture covers the riots in Greece (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/2008_greek_riots.html).

[edge walker]

Good coverage of the situation by The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/13/athens-greece-riots). It doesn't begin to cover the cultural situation and the implications of the riots in the here and now, but it does manage to convey that this is a temper tantrum more than an uprising.

[Ferrus]

Yes, and these things seem far worse than they are, thanks to a 24/7 media. Before the advent of mass media this would've been regarded as one of those forgettable instances of public disorder.

[edge walker]

Yes, and these things seem far worse than they are, thanks to a 24/7 media. Before the advent of mass media this would’ve been regarded as one of those forgettable instances of public disorder.
It’s better to be silent and be thought a fool…

[Joystick]

Even if it was not for the media coverage, it would never seem for just a public disorder. IT IS NOT JUST A PUBLIC DISORDER.

There are severe issues behind that.
People in UK complaint about the fact that demos would be organized in London. I remember reading in a news paper's comments, the comment of an annoyed British, who would characterize the people as 'scums' and that this should never happen as it distorts London, which is such a 'peaceful' place.

As it seems, 'peace' is a very subjective term
I guess if London was such a 'peacefull' place, people would not stab each other at the streets, nor they would kill their babies in such a sadistic way.
These are definitelly signals of a rotten social understanding
If people want to preserve the peace on the surface, that is ok with me.
But it is because of this non interest on public matters, and politics, that drives people to be treated like animals.
This guy Meneazes got killed. He was from brazil, and the 'intelligent' london police thought he was an Arab and shot him straight in the bloody tube and londoneers would do nothing.
But remember... it can happen to anyone
So it is not just a public disorder, It is a severe issue, and must be addressed.

[Vagabond]

Even if it was not for the media coverage, it would never seem for just a public disorder. IT IS NOT JUST A PUBLIC DISORDER.

There are severe issues behind that.
People in UK complaint about the fact that demos would be organized in London. I remember reading in a news paper's comments, the comment of an annoyed British, who would characterize the people as 'scums' and that this should never happen as it distorts London, which is such a 'peaceful' place.

As it seems, 'peace' is a very subjective term
I guess if London was such a 'peacefull' place, people would not stab each other at the streets, nor they would kill their babies in such a sadistic way.
These are definitelly signals of a rotten social understanding
If people want to preserve the peace on the surface, that is ok with me.
But it is because of this non interest on public matters, and politics, that drives people to be treated like animals.
This guy Meneazes got killed. He was from brazil, and the 'intelligent' london police thought he was an Arab and shot him straight in the bloody tube and londoneers would do nothing.
But remember... it can happen to anyone
So it is not just a public disorder, It is a severe issue, and must be addressed.
I am not entirely sure as to the gist of what you're saying, so I'll take it point by point:
- Yes, there are severe issues behind what happened.
- Yes, London is no heaven.
- Yes, the cop who shot the Brazilian guy was an utter moron.

So far we agree. However, we disagree here:

Even if it was not for the media coverage, it would never seem for just a public disorder. IT IS NOT JUST A PUBLIC DISORDER.
What exactly was it then? Do you assume "public disorder" happens with no reason whatsoever? There is always a reason. However, this was not a revolution, it did not have the mass public support, so I am really interested in hearing exactly what you would call it.

I agree there is an underlying issue that must be addressed. However, I have the creeping suspition our suggested methods would differ greatly.

[Joystick]

I agree there is an underlying issue that must be addressed. However, I have the creeping suspition our suggested methods would differ greatly.

That is the case indeed, I do not aprove the methods currently used, but you can never expect massive reactions to be rational actually. There is limited time to decide, and a chaotic behavior prevails.

The thing is that these issues need a strategic approach, but unfortunatelly, this is far away from the tolerrance and patience that an outraged crowd can advertise