INTPs and the Four Temperaments

[LouMeland]

Hello everyone. I am an INTJ and I am running my own independent research on types and temperaments. What is the prevailing temperament or temperament blends for INTPs?

Here's the link to the test:
h t t p ://w w w. o n e i s h y . c o m / p e r s o n a l i t y / p e r s o n a l i t y _ t e s t . p h p
(I can't post URL's yet)

I am a Mel-Chlor.

[Saeculustra]

I think very many are melancholic-choleric with varying degrees of phlegmatic.

[lbloom]

The 107 question test at 4marks decided that I'm melancholic-phlegmatic (4:1).

Your test gave me a melancholic-sanguine result, which I don't agree with at all. Some of those choices are weak, and should not be weighed equal to the others.

The theory sucks, though.

[LouMeland]

At 4marks you cannot score Chlor-Phleg, Phleg-Chlor, Mel-San or San-Mel because they consider these temperaments opposites. Their theory is very strange, haha.

The link I gave you is the most popular 4-temperament test, widely used.

[lbloom]

At 4marks you cannot score Chlor-Phleg, Phleg-Chlor, Mel-San or San-Mel because they consider these temperaments opposites. Their theory is very strange, haha.

Also, they make you select your parish.

I don't have a parish. I don't even want a parish.

[LouMeland]

Hahaha.. that's funny. :happpy:

[Nunki]

Here's the link without the spaces: http://www.oneishy.com/personality/personality_test_results.php

The test says I'm Phlegmatic-Melancholic, with the percentages at 50 and 38, respectively.

Edit: The test at 4marks has things reversed, with Melancholic at 66% and Phlegmatic at 34%. I think that the truth is probably somewhere between the two tests.

[Eric B]

In this discussion: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=936150&postcount=2 I lay out how I believe the four temperaments line up with MBTI. INTP's technically would be Phlegmatic-Choleric, because INP=Behind the Scenes (Interaction Style)=Phlegmatic, and NT is Choleric (Keirsey claimed it was Phlegmatic, but it's need for mastery and control are classic Choleric).

Some INTP's do come out Phlegmatic and Choleric, but with Melancholic as well, and I see others come out Melancholic mixed with something else. On this test, I came out Melancholic-Choleric, and on LaHaye's version, I came out Phlegmatic-Melancholy. On the most accurate one, Arno Profile System (which reports a three way temperament blend with each corresponding to FIRO's social, leadership and deep personal relationship areas), I'm Supine (which is like a less expressive, more friendly version of Phlegmatic, basically, and thus also fits in Behind the Scenes) in the social and deep personal areas, and Choleric in the leadership area, and this combination I found matches with INTP. Most others INTP's are probably Phlegmatic-Choleric-Melancholy.

[Nunki]

I would have to disagree with you and Keirsey as far as Melancholics go. In school my class was sorted into the four temperaments, and all four of the people, including myself, who I can remember being rated as Melancholics were NFs. I think that the sensitivity of many NFs is just as consistent with Melancholy as the perfectionism of SJs is.

[LouMeland]

Phleg-Chlors are not too common to see. I was surprised when I found an INTP forum. I do agree that NT is Choleric, NF is Melancholy, and SP could be Sanguine. However, SJ does not strike me as much to be Phlegmatic, so we do have a problem! I can't even imagine a Phlegmatic being a TJ! It's very hard to link the MBTI with the 4/5 Temperament systems of LaHaye and Arno.

At the INTJ forum I laid out a theory about it. I asked the members to take this same temperament test, and the results were interesting. Most of us were Mel-Chlors or Chlor-Mels. I said that it just depends on your percentage of "Introversion" (low = Choleric, high= Melancholy) and Judging (high = Choleric/Melancholy (if accompanied with a high T), low = Phlegmatic). What do you think?

[Nunki]

I think what you're running into is the desire, and yet hazard, of translating one system into another. The mind sees two typologies, both with the personality spectrum divided into four major groups, and wants to create further correlations for the sake of parsimony, ease, and unity. Such correlations may, in fact, be strained at best.

[greenblob]

Phlegmatic-Melancholy

From the descriptions, it seems like it's because of my NP-ness.

[ocop]

Phlegmatic Melancholy

25/35/18/23

[Eric B]

I would have to disagree with you and Keirsey as far as Melancholics go. In school my class was sorted into the four temperaments, and all four of the people, including myself, who I can remember being rated as Melancholics were NFs. I think that the sensitivity of many NFs is just as consistent with Melancholy as the perfectionism of SJs is.
It's funny, as when I sat down to try to examine each type description (Mainly Keirsey's, on his site, as the excerpts of PUM 1 on Lifexplore), I did have the NF's down at one point as possibly Melancholy in Control. However, when I began noticing the need for order of the SJ's, it became clear that that was more Melancholy in Control. People I know who are Melancholy in both Inclusion and Control are ISTJ's, and my wife is a San-Mel and she and others I know fit ESFJ very well. And the factor of Cooperative vs Pragmatic I found would correspond to the "introversion and extroversion" of the Control matrix. From Berens, we get a cross factor, Structure vs Motive, which fits the other temperament factor of people-task orientation. If one temperament is Melancholy, and the other is Phlegmatic, then they will share in common introversion, or more generically, low expressiveness. For Keirsey, this would end up as Structure focus, which doesn't make sense. For the NF=Melancholic/SJ=Phlegmatic, it would still be Cooperativeness. However, since Melancholy and Choleric both shared task-orientation, this would now br represented by N all by itself (NF/NT), and the people-orientation linking Phlegmatic and Sanguine would be S (SJ/SP). That doesn't really make sense either.

Part of the reason NF's may seem Melancholy is because I believe NF also corresponds to the fifth temperament, Supine, in the area of Control. Supine is more reserved (less expressive) then Phlegmatic (which is really moderate and in the middle of the scales). So in four temperament tests, the Supine may come out as a Melancholy. They basically look like them in person, also.
[cont'd]


Phleg-Chlors are not too common to see. I was surprised when I found an INTP forum. I do agree that NT is Choleric, NF is Melancholy, and SP could be Sanguine. However, SJ does not strike me as much to be Phlegmatic, so we do have a problem! I can't even imagine a Phlegmatic being a TJ! It's very hard to link the MBTI with the 4/5 Temperament systems of LaHaye and Arno.
[cont'd]
Supine may also sound very SJ'ish, because of the need for order, which would explain what you're saying, assuming the NF=Melancholy idea were true. This is further supported by the common linking of E6 with SJ. Supine in all the areas seems to fit type 6 very well. ("Devil's Advocate", checking with others out of fear, etc). But with Supine, their need does not seem so much to be from an introverted Sensing need of familiarity, like it is with the Melancholy in Control. The Melancholy can be good leaders just as long as it is a known area, such as their own turf. They'll accept the direction of the institution, but do have a very strong independent streak, and don't want to be controlled too much, especially by something that is not by the rules. The Supine needs direction from someone, whether familiar or not, because of their own fear of failure in doing things on their own. Thus, they also do not seem very Concrete in their focus.

This highly dependent temperament does not seem to have any perfect representation in MBTI/Keirsey. However, looking at the core temperament needs and the factors, Supine would fit closest to an NF, who needs meaning and significance, and is cooperative and motive focused. Melancholy would fit the need for Responsibility and Duty, and membership (e.g. in an institution). Supine would sound like that as well, but Melancholy fits the factor of Structure-focused better (in addition to the cooperativeness they would both have in common). In the skills set, Melancholy would fit the SJ's "Logistical" set better, while Phlegmatic falls right into the NF's "diplomatic" set.
TJ's on the other hand are all Melancholy and Choleric types (pure, or mixed with each other), so yes, those are the furthest from Phlegmatic, whose pure type would most likely be INFP.

At the INTJ forum I laid out a theory about it. I asked the members to take this same temperament test, and the results were interesting. Most of us were Mel-Chlors or Chlor-Mels. I said that it just depends on your percentage of "Introversion" (low = Choleric, high= Melancholy) and Judging (high = Choleric/Melancholy (if accompanied with a high T), low = Phlegmatic). What do you think? Yeah; it seems almost unanimous that INTJ's are Mel-Chlors. (Chlor-Mel would actually be ESTJ, but then these four temperament tests are generally assigning them by strength, and not distinct social vs leadership areas. APS is the only one that does that. So if your results reflected your choleric traits more, that might be picked up as the "dominant" temperament and placed first, yet it is more likely your conative temperament (NT), and not your Interaction Style, which comes first in the blends as I use them).

Another reason INTP's may be coming out as Phleg-Mel is that the Phlegmatic tempers the Choleric traits, making them appear Melancholy (just as critical, but not as aggressive). Again, these tests do not break it down into distinct areas; but only overall traits and strengths. (While for the NTJ's and ENTP the Choleric is totally untempered and almost always shows in the results).

[Nunki]

Melancholic is the personality of an individual characterized by black bile; hence (Greek μελας, melas, "black", + χολη, kholé, "bile"); a person who was a thoughtful ponderer had a melancholic disposition. Often very kind and considerate, melancholics can be highly creative - as in poetry and art - but also can become overly pre-occupied with the tragedy and cruelty in the world, thus becoming depressed. The temperament is associated with the season of fall/autumn (dry and cold) and the element earth. A melancholic is also often a perfectionist, being very particular about what they want and how they want it in some cases. This often results in being unsatisfied with one's own artistic or creative works and always pointing out to themselves what could and should be improved. This only sounds like SJ if you blot out everything except the orderly, perfectionistic part. If you add everything together, you have what sounds like type Four on the Enneagram, which is almost as far from SJ as it gets.

[Eric B]

But remember, there are actually two temperament matrices in the 16 types: conative and affective (ie.e. "social"); and thus two kinds of Melancholic. The classic temperament descriptions focused on the social aspect, which would be Chart the Course. Of course, some leadership traits were in the descriptions as well, but nobody ever separated them into "areas" like that until Arno, basically (and then Berens, in acknowleding the Interaction Styles in addition to Keirsey's temperaments). So Keirsey linked the Melancholic with SJ because it fit the perfectionistic aspect of the temperament the closest, and he didn't divide his "role directives" by I/E to reveal the other Melancholic group with the other, more familiar "classic" traits, which stem largely from the introversion. SJ in itself is blind to Introversion, so is not characterized by a lot of those behaviors.

Several different groups have some of those characteristics (kind and considerate, artistic, etc) but they will be apart of different needs. In fact, you would think the Artisan would be the Melancholic, but it is clearly the opposite when you really look at it (which threw me for a loop the day I first read the KTS descriptions on Advisorteam).

[Joystick]

I think very many are melancholic-choleric with varying degrees of phlegmatic.

that is the case.
I am choleric melancholy with 18% of phlegmatic

[walfin]

Phlegmatic Sanguine

I just gotta be weird.

[kble]

Choleric Melancholy

30% choleric
28% melancholic
28% phlegmatic
15% sanguine

(I'm an INTJ)

[edge walker]

Phlegmatic 43%
Melancholy 25%
Choleric 20%
Sanguine 13%

[LouMeland]

So..it seems that the INTP Central is full of...Phleg-Mels! (Ok..one girl at INTJ Forum said that name sounded gross, but you know what I mean!). This is so cool.

[edge walker]

one girl at INTJ Forum said that name sounded gross
Well we are a pretty gross bunch.

[LouMeland]

So...no Phleg-Chlors here? =p

[lbloom]

INTP's technically would be Phlegmatic-Choleric, because INP=Behind the Scenes (Interaction Style)=Phlegmatic, and NT is Choleric


...Melancholics were NFs. I think that the sensitivity of many NFs is just as consistent with Melancholy as the perfectionism of SJs is.


I do agree that NT is Choleric, NF is Melancholy, and SP could be Sanguine.

The INTPC profile says

The net result of this concern for past experiences and of mood/atmosphere is that INTPs belong centrally to those types referred to as melancolic. The INTP melancolic is typically drawn to wild polar expanses, to mountain ranges and all places on the edges of civilisation. Whatever his particular yearning might actually be, it has a common root.

[Ratatosk]

Phlegmatic Sanguine

43% Phlegmatic
23% Sanguine
18% Melancholy
18% Choleric

So I guess I'm more of a phlegmatic + an even mix of the rest.

no Phleg-Chlors here?I hope not, sounds like a pretty poisonous gas.

[Eric B]

The INTPC profile says I know Paul James calls the INTP "melancolic" [sic]. The type does appear so, because, for the short story, it is I+T. Melancholic is introverted and directive. On the S side, T defines directive. On the N side, T defines the "mirror" of directive, which Berens calls "structure-focused". It's very similar, and gives us our critical edge, despite being informative.

James is labeling the overall appearance of the type, and not breaking it down into temperament + Interaction Style (which is what would correspond to the "PhlegChlor" combination). I also acknowledge that the comparison might not always come out exact, so some INTP's might come out on the melancholic side instead of choleric. They're both similar, sharing "task-focus". The purest true melancholics will be past-oriented of course, but this will stem from a preferred Si as the SJ's primary perception. For the INTP, it is mostly a "relief" function.
(Likewise, you can also come out on the Sanguine side, as that temperament shares expressiveness orpragmatism with Choleric. In either case, most results are not really all that far off).

[Vaera]

"Your personality is Melancholy Sanguine."

Okay... I guess it has something to do with the weird mood i woke up in this morning.

[rhuarch]

Your personality is Phlegmatic Sanguine

Melancholy Strength:4 Weakness:6
25%
Phlegmatic Strength:6 Weakness:10
40%
Sanguine Strength:7 Weakness:4
28%
Choleric Strength:3 Weakness:0
8%

[rhuarch]

Your personality is Phlegmatic Sanguine

Melancholy Strength:4 Weakness:6
25%
Phlegmatic Strength:6 Weakness:10
40%
Sanguine Strength:7 Weakness:4
28%
Choleric Strength:3 Weakness:0
8%

How is that for a weird mix!

[30footsmurf]

I got Phlegmatic Sanguine. I looked at the strengths and weaknesses and they seem pretty accurate.

[Isagel]

Your personality is Choleric Melancholy

Melancholy: 28%
Phlegmatic: 25%
Sanguine: 15%
Choleric: 33%

So in what way is this supposed to enlighten me? The whole theory seems shallow compared to MBTI.

[md5fungi]

Your personality is Melancholy Phlegmatic.

Melancholy: 40%
Phlegmatic: 28%
Sanguine: 15%
Choleric: 18%

The problem I have with this test... is that for a lot of the rows, I wasn't generally remotely like any of the choices, so I just randomly picked one.

Meh, I don't care if this is widely used, it sucked and didn't really tell me anything, in my honest opinion.

[Eric B]

Yes, these tests are very crude, and only give an idea. They have you picking out behaviors, but behaviors can vary (and even be shared in common between temperaments; such as extroverts being expressive, etc).

Temperament is about inborn needs underlying the behaviors.
The best one I know of is the APS, which is basically the FIRO-B, but with the four temperaments plus one mapped to it's three areas. But that is not well known. I don't know of any other Galen temperament system that uses a more psychometric scoring method. LaHaye has the same kind of "pick the traits out of the chart" in his book, but I'm not sure if he has a more formal version that can be ordered or whatever.
I look at the Keirsey temperaments plus Interaction Styles as matching two of the three FIRO areas. Hence, each consists of the same four temperaments, but blended into each of the 16 types. Hence, INTP as Pheg-Chlor (INP=Phlegmatic or Behind the Scenes; NT as Choleric or Rational, or Helen Fisher's "Director"), even though most are not quite matching that in this informal test.

[Daaf]

Melancholy Strength:11 Weakness:10
53%
Phlegmatic Strength:6 Weakness:7
33%
Sanguine Strength:3 Weakness:3
15%
Choleric Strength:0 Weakness:0
0%

But what does it all mean Basil?

[Etherealsage]

Melancholy 23% (Strength:1 Weakness:8)
Phlegmatic 48% (Strength:10 Weakness:9)
Sanguine 15% (Strength:5 Weakness:1)
Choleric 15% (Strength:4 Weakness:2)

Strengths of Phlegmatic and a mix of Sanguine/Choleric; weaknesses of Phlegmatic and Melancholic (and here I thought I was working on that bit). *Scratches head*

ENXP here, but that's still pretty damned strange.

Edit: I looked at the strengths/weaknesses, and I mostly agree with the phlegmatic, I don't necessarily agree with the melancholic weaknesses or some of the Sanguine/Choleric strengths. I don't know, I'll attribute some of those to groupings not really sounding like me regardless of what I picked.

[fduniho]

I doubt that Keirsey's temperaments line up with the four Hippocratic temperaments. Eysenck has correlated the Hippocratic temperaments with the personality dimensions of Extraversion/Introversion and Neuroticism/Stability. Neurotic extraverts are choleric, neurotic introverts melancholic, stable extraverts sanguine, and stable introverts phlegmatic. Since Keirsey's temperaments all cut across the extraversion/introversion distinction, they will not match up with Eysenck's understanding of the temperaments.

My own temperament is largely phlegmatic with occasional melancholic moods.

[Eric B]

The temperaments were originally mapped to response delay (which basically became I/E: S, C short delay, M, P long delay) and response sustain. (M, C long sustain, P, S short delay). This resembles Neuroticism, but it also resembles the factor of people-task focus, which is what everyone else besides Eysenck paired it with. (Including DISC, which was basically conceived before Eysenck, and Social Syles). Eysenck later added "Psychoticism", which was split into "Agreeableness' and "Conscientiousness". Agreeableness more matched the old "people-task", and is in the 16 types system as "Directing/Informing and Conscientiousness would be a good match for Cooperative/Pragmatic. The latter is apart of Keirsey's temperaments, and the former, the Interaction Styles.
One of the reasons I indentify NT as Choleric (instead of Phlegmatic) is because it shares "Pragmatic" with SP (which is Sanguine), and this seems to represent "extraversion" on the Conative level. (Rather than the common pragmatism representing "people-focus" or "Agreeableness" if NT was Phlegmatic). In other words, the familiar I/E of the Interaction Styles is more of the social level of the four temperaments, while C/P is on the level of action.

Of course, Neuroticism was omitted, and a special version of MBTI was designed to represent it as "Comfort-Discomfort".

Still, the temperaments are usually based on Agreeableness (with Extraversion), and Neuroticism is in that respect similar to it. On the conative level, Agreeableness would be Structure-Motive, which pairs NT/SJ (low) and SP/NF (high). So you have a form of extraversion and agreeableness on both temperament matrices.

[fduniho]

The temperaments were originally mapped to response delay (which basically became I/E: S, C short delay, M, P long delay) and response sustain. (M, C long sustain, P, S short delay). This resembles Neuroticism, but it also resembles the factor of people-task focus, which is what everyone else besides Eysenck paired it with.

Would you spell out what this means? What are response delay and response sustain? How are they related to Introversion and Extraversion? Is it also related to Neuroticism? If so, how? What is people-task focus?

[MCYhon]

Your personality is Choleric Melancholy.
Melancholy Strength:6 Weakness:7
33%
Phlegmatic Strength:5 Weakness:2
18%
Sanguine Strength:5 Weakness:1
15%
Choleric Strength:4 Weakness:10
35%

[Eric B]

Would you spell out what this means? What are response delay and response sustain? How are they related to Introversion and Extraversion? Is it also related to Neuroticism? If so, how? What is people-task focus?

I break all of that down from scratch on my page in temperament:
http://www.erictb.info/temperament1.html and my source, regarding "delay/sustain" is
(Evidence-based Research in Complementary and Alternative Medicine I: History Francesco Chiappelli, Paolo Prolo and Olivia S. Cajulis)

The sanguine temperament showed quick, impulsive and relatively brief reactions. (i.e. short delay, short sustain)
The choleric temperament manifested a short response time-delay, but the response was sustained for a relatively long time.
The melancholic temperament exhibited a long response time-delay, and the response was sustained at length, if not, seemingly, permanently.

Delay matches I/E as they tie together Sanguine and Choleric, and Phlegmatic and Melancholic.
People/task is how much a person responds to or "wants" from others. The Melancholic and Choleric, which have long sustain, tend to hold on to emotions like anger longer, and thus be more serious, and task focused (as well as Neurotic), while the Sanguine and Phlegmatic have short Sustain and get over those emotions faster, and thus relate to people better (as well as less Neurotic).

[web.weaver]

So...no Phleg-Chlors here? =p

hi, i got the test result which was either phleg-chol or phleg-mel .. i'd be more sure if only i hadn't closed the window :stupid:

this doesnt answer the question at all right? :mellow:

[fduniho]

I break all of that down from scratch on my page in temperament:
http://www.erictb.info/temperament1.html

Your page on temperament says to take the test before reading it, but I could not find a link to the test. Where you have underlined "take the test first" seemed the obvious place for a link, but it wasn't one.

What you're saying about sustain and response does strike me as familiar. I might have seen something like it in Eysenck or something else I've read on temperament. I look forward to reading your page after I have taken the test it mentions.

[Eric B]

The links are at the bottom, it says. That warning was really for those who did not know anything about temperament, and were planning to take the APS. For that test, the less you know about temperament, the better, since knowing too much can skew the results. So to try not to spoil it for people taking the APS, I put that up, to avoid any problems, since I'm probably the only one putting that much in depth information about its framework online.

With you; since you're here, you most likely already know alot obout temperament or type (like you knew about Neuroticism as a temperament factor), so it probably wouldn't make much of a difference, and that if you were even considering taking the test. So read on!

Yes, response sustain is similar to Eysenck's Neuroticism, but it is also similar to Agreeableness. In fact, I believe it is the APS system's fifth temperament (Informal free five temperament version similar to the one in this thread here" http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=31105) that Agreeableness and Neurotisism "split" and become different. While Sanguine and Phlegmatic are both high A/Low N, Supine is high A, but also high N; because of the low expression/high want. (Phlegmatic is actually moderate in E and A rather than low E/high A as it is elsewhere).

So I don't hold Neuroticism as a separate factor of temperament. It's already implicit in the E/A matrix. Any low score in E and/or A is high N, because it is a form of movement "away" from people, as in Horney's scale. Mod or High scores in both areas are low N. The Sanguine is a "survivor" because of his high expression, and the Phlegmatic is indifferent, not suffering many negative emotions because of the moderate scores.

[fduniho]

I have started to read your page on temperament. I seem to fall somewhere in the area of Supine, Melancholic, and Phlegmatic. I'm not usually prone to taking the initiative with people, though I have done it on occasion. I need periods of solitude for working on my own projects, but I also enjoy spending time with people I like in activities I enjoy. When I'm with my girlfriend and her kids, I'm at my most "Supine," though I'd prefer that the name of some bodily humor or fluid be used instead of Supine. Most of my choices start with the letter S, such as Salivaic, Sweaty, and others I'll leave unmentioned. I wish to avoid those since Sanguine already starts with S. I thought of Lymphatic, but apparently lymph is already part of the phlegmatic humor. Since I don't know of other humors, I don't know of a better name for it. I just know I don't really like the name Supine, because it suggests servility, and I don't think that's what it's really about. Like the other temperaments, the Supine has its own agenda, which is to find and form bonds with people who can be trusted. Service is more of a means to this than it is the end-in-itself. But I digress. I was writing about myself. My main project provides the service to people of enabling them to play games together online. I enjoy working on this in solitude, but I also appreciate that it benefits people. If I were of a more choleric temperament, I would direct my project more toward financial gain. But financial gain is not why I work on it, and money and power are not driving forces for me. I mainly just want to be free to work on projects that are of importance to me and to spend some time with valued friends. I'm not inclined toward socializing with lots of people. I rarely talk to people, and I will normally open up to someone only if that person approaches me and I find the person agreeable.

[Eric B]

Yeah, Dr. Arno (who derived five temeprament theory from the FIRO instrument) named it after its "servant's heart".

For a fifth "humor", I would compare Supine to white blood cells (leukocytes: Gk. leukos, "white"). They "serve" the body by cleaning out foreign objects from the blood. So if I were to have my own Five Temperaments instrument and not be allowed to use the name "Supine" (I don't know if Dr. Arno owns it, or what, and I was surpised that informal test used it! Another instrument, called WorleyID Profile, calls it "Introverted Sanguine"), the alternate name I would call it would be "Leukine". This would also eliminate the "S" conflict, because on APS reports, which use a letter code for the temperaments, Sanguine has to be changed to "G". But to make the fifth temperament "L", Sanguine could be "S" again. Funny you thought of one that started with L).
Another name could be "Plasmatic", since the actual fluid of "white blood" is plasma. But then that sounds like Phlegmatic, and also uses the P. I've considered using it in my correlations where Supine and Phlegmatic become merged into the same temperament or Interaction Style.

So then you would have two kinds of blood, and two kinds of bile. The bloods are the high responsives, and the bile are the low responsives. The high expressives would then be colorful, while the low expressives are black or white! (Phlegm in the middle is a dull inbetween color!) Just amazing how so many of these symmetries work out in this model!

It is also interesting that the "fifth element" which would correspond to Supine; the proverbial "quintessence", was "æther" (which in modern knowledge can now be thought of as "the fabric of space"). That would match it as the unknown, elusive temperament! We can think also of it as the "quintessential" temperament!

Also, if you are a blend of temperaments, they each temper the others. the full five temperament theory of APS divides them according to FIRO's Inclusion, Control and Affection the first to apparently corresponding to Interaction Style and Keirsey temperament. Since I'm part Choleric, I'm a bit less "servant-"like, and more into my own projects. The Supine indicates that I do like being included by people, and it's often a weighing between doign things on my own, or joining others.

Being Choleric is not necessarily about financial gain. In the area of Control, it's just about the determination to accomplish things, and the desire to control your environment. But again, that's tempered by the opposite Supine in the other areas. I still think NT correponds to thic Choleric, but since this test here does not separate the temperaments into the areas, and you're just picking out traits of each, then it might be reflecting the moderated temperaments, and hence the Choleric perhaps mellows out to Melancholy, which a lot of INTP's are getting.
Also, with both INTP's and INFP's getting Melancholy a lot, it could also be the tertiary Si of both types. Si in the first two positions defines Melancholy in Control or SJ/Guardian. But the INxP's are theoretically "next in line" with it (though for some reason, INTP's seem to score low on it in the CP test. According to MBTI theory, it is still there in third place).

[fduniho]

the alternate name I would call it would be "Leukine".

For the reasons you give, I like the idea of naming Supine for white blood cells, but when I looked up "Leukine," all I found is that it is a trade name used by Bayer for a drug known as Sargramostim. Maybe Leukocytic (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Leukocytic) would be a better name.

[Eric B]

Oh, whow, didn't know that!
The alternative was "Leukocine"

[Peptron]

Melancholy Strength:1 Weakness:5
15%
Phlegmatic Strength:15 Weakness:12
68%
Sanguine Strength:4 Weakness:1
13%
Choleric Strength:0 Weakness:2
5%

Seems I am a pure phlegmatic, with melancholy and sanguine distant seconds.

[fduniho]

Oh, whow, didn't know that!
The alternative was "Leukocine"

Are you sure Leukocine is a real word? I got nothing for it from cuil.com, and the only hit I got for it from google.com is your message, the one I'm replying to. Google suggests Leukokine instead, which may be some kind of drug, but I don't really have a clear idea of what it is.

[Eric B]

I made it up (based on the Greek root, of course), to try to match the ancient four, and sound similar to "supine". (Like I thought I had made up the word "Leukine"). I did a quick search for it as well, and see there is something called "leukocin" (without the final e; lowercase, thus probably not a trademark).

[LastRailway]

Choleric Phlegmatic


Your personality is Choleric Phlegmatic

Melancholy (20%) Strength:7 Weakness:1
Phlegmatic (25%) Strength:4 Weakness:6
Sanguine (18%) Strength:5 Weakness:2
Choleric (38%) Strength:4 Weakness:11


EDIT: What? these two are the complete opposite the one to other.

[Eric B]

You can have a blend of opposites (though a few out there such as 4Marks don't allow it.)
And since both "Keirseyan" temperaments and Interaction Styles correspond to these same four, some types will be a blend of opposites.
So for you, finally we get a match, with Phlegmatic representing INP, and Choleric matching NT.

[10_percent_ninja]

LouMeland,

Part of the trouble with assigning the four 'classic' temperments to the MBTI spectrum has to do with response bias--assume that the four share a similar level of commonality. If you added the % of all the xNTx temperments in the general population up, it would be less then 10% of the total.

[10_percent_ninja]

Melancholic - 40 ---6/10
Phlegmatic - 33 ---8/5
Sanguine - 14 ---5/1
Choloric 14 ---1/4

[Eric B]

Tests like this aren't totaled across the general population like that, and there are few tests using the classic temperaments that do that. Even so, again, there are two sets of "four temperaments" here (the Keirsey groups and the Interaction Styles) that are overlaid.. So if the general category of "choleric" might be similar in percentage as the others, yet NT is only 10%, then you have to consider that "In Charge" (the EST/ENJ group) might have a much higher percentage (especially when you consider society is said to be heavily ESTJ). So that would probably balance it out, and this kind of test does not separate the different temperament matrices like that.

[Levitas]

So...no Phleg-Chlors here? =p

I'm Phlegmatic Choleric.

[Edge2070]

Phlegmatic Melancholy.

[1104]

i took the test before, direct variation of the one posted, here approximate results:
Phlegmatic: 19
Melancholy: 8
Sanguine: 7
Choleric: 5

i am no doubt phlegmatic. i'm lazy and apathetic, and rarely offended.

wouldn't it be better to match temperaments to individual mbti types, look for patterns afterward?

[Technical]

I do not like it, Lou Meland, I do not like your Chol-Melan.

[1104]

intp's are phlegmatic because they don't feel the need to change the world. they're fine with the present, as long as they can make sense of it. "happily reconciled to life", "lazy" and "unemotional".

how are we choleric? we're not goal oriented.

[Eric B]

intp's are phlegmatic because they don't feel the need to change the world. they're fine with the present, as long as they can make sense of it. "happily reconciled to life", "lazy" and "unemotional".

how are we choleric? we're not goal oriented.

That is my theory of NT. (And Dave Kelly of Ptypes.com also).
NT is "Tough-minded" (T), pragmatic (what works) and structure focused, and having the core need of mastery, and the Strategic skills set, which fits Choleric (moreso than simply the "exciteability" of the NF). Hence, there is a kind of goal-orientation.
Using the original temperament factors of introversion/extroversion and people/task focus; Choleric is extraverted or quicker to initiate, and task-focused. Pragmatic will tend to make us quicker to action (don't have to ask "is it right?" like cooperatives), and structure-focused is task-oriented (along with SJ), while motive-focused SP and NF are clearly more people-oriented.

INTP's are the least Choleric, because the Phlegmatic Interaction Style is opposite, and tempers the Choleric drive. The NTJ's are clearly more Choleric, the ENTJ being the purest form of that temperament. The ENTP's are also described in terms of competitiveness and one-upmanship, which is very Choleric. Keirsey's PUM 1 says: "The ENTP regards a comment like 'it can't be done' as a personal challenge, and will spare no expense to discover a solution once properly motivated". The INTP's can be that way, but again, less so, because of the introversion. Linda Berens even once described herself as a Rational, under stress, as believing she can get anything and everything done, and then taking on too many projects.
This is apart of what is traditionally "Choleric", not Phlegmatic (which is much less competitive, and for the INTP is the social "interaction" style only. The Keirseyan groups are "conative", meaning action or leadership styles). It's the "can do" at any cost attitude.

[Gewitter27]

Your personality is Melancholy Phlegmatic.

40 Meloncholic
30 Phlegmatic

...

Meh.

[DoomBagel]

Phlegmatic Melancholy.

It's no wonder that I'm always stuffed up and I like to cut myself.

[E-5]

Pretty interesting, though not much ground-breaking new info.

Your personality is Melancholy Phlegmatic.

Melancholy: 40%
Phlegmatic: 35%
Sanguine: 18%
Choleric: 8%

Not sure what to do with the results, if anything.

[Luvfreedom]

I am Phleg/Mel.

[poetrygirl]

Melancholy
63%

Phlegmatic
28%

Sanguine Strength:
5%

Choleric Strength:
5%

[kali]

Phlegmatic melancholy

Phlegmatic 43%
The Introvert | The Watcher | The Pessimist

Melancholy 35%
The Introvert | The Thinker | The Pessimist

[Resonance]

Nature's Name: Mild
Berry (stops confusion): Wiki Berry
Raises: Special Attack
Lowers: Defense
Loved Pokéblock: Dry (Beauty)
Hated Pokéblock: Sour (Tough)

[Pip Piperson]

Sanguine Phlegmatic.

Melancholy Strength:6 Weakness:2
20%
Phlegmatic Strength:6 Weakness:6
30%
Sanguine Strength:6 Weakness:8
35%
Choleric Strength:2 Weakness:4
15%

*looks up description* Not so accurate, I'm not extroverted and no one likes me (this may be the paranoia talking). They have some of my weaknesses down pat though: indecisiveness, disorganization, and procrastination. However I've never been subject to superficiality.

"Often you find it difficult to know exactly how to state what you mean, or how to express yourself logically; this contributes to a tendency to talk more than is needed or to provide more detail than is necessary." That's me. Eh, I'd say it's a draw on this one.

[Raccoon Love]

Melancholy Strength:12 Weakness:9
53%

The Introvert | The Thinker | The Pessimist

Phlegmatic Strength:4 Weakness:8
30%
Sanguine Strength:4 Weakness:2
15%
Choleric Strength:0 Weakness:1
3%

[WroughtInChaos]

Melancholy choleric

Melancholy Strength:8 Weakness:7
38%
Phlegmatic Strength:1 Weakness:7
20%
Sanguine Strength:5 Weakness:0
13%
Choleric Strength:6 Weakness:6
30%

[ruggercat]

Choleric 43%
Melancholic 28%

However I am a very weak "I" and scored about a 1 out of 30 when I took the MBTI a couple weeks ago.

[1104]

just throwing shit out here:
ExxJ= choleric, ExxP=sanguine, IxxP=phlegmatic, IxxJ=... no, that doesn't work does it.

[CreativeChaos]

At 4marks you cannot score Chlor-Phleg, Phleg-Chlor, Mel-San or San-Mel because they consider these temperaments opposites. Their theory is very strange, haha.

The link I gave you is the most popular 4-temperament test, widely used.

I saw these four temperments way back when I was a teenager. That was like a century ago. These have to be the oldest temperament ideas that we have today. Keirsey speaks of them in his book, and I'm too lazy to go get it to expound on where this comes from.

However, I know that these are still popular among the Christian community. It came out in the Christian community and is still there. It's the only reason why it is widely used.

There is no true correspondence between these four temperaments and MBTI.

Eric B has been expounding and expounding on the reasons why. So, I won't. This typology is simply very rudimentory compaired with MBTI. So, keep getting your analysis if you want. I think it sucks.

[Eric B]

Actually, it my expositions, I have been showing that they do correspond, even if loosely. Not perfect matches (like INTP's coming out Melancholy), but very close. (Especially for INTJ (MelChlor) and INFJ (MelPhleg)!)


ExxJ= choleric, ExxP=sanguine, IxxP=phlegmatic, IxxJ=... no, that doesn't work does it. In part it does. Particularly for the N types. Those would be part of the Interaction Styles, which also correspond to the ancient temperaments. For the S's, it's ExTx, ExFx, IxFx, IxTx. The split across S and N is where the two frameworks only partially match each others symmetry.

Basically, if you use Keirsey temperament and Interaction Style, you are using the Christian systems with different names for the temperaments. Using the old names for both actually simplifies things in matching type behavior. Like an ESFP being a pure Sanguine, while an ISFP is a blend of Sanguine and Phlegmatic. Hence, they may seem a bit less like some of the typical SP stereotypes, because the temperaments temper each other.

[cripple]

Took the test two times.
Scored Phlegmatic by 45% first time, with sanguine on second. But that was more my idealistic version. More honest, or based on feedback I've received resulted in this.

Your personality is Melancholy Choleric.
Melancholy
30%
Phlegmatic
28%
Sanguine
13%
Choleric
30%

[UniversalMagnetism]

Melancholy Phlegmatic

Melancholy Strength:6 Weakness:13
48%
Phlegmatic Strength:10 Weakness:4
35%
Sanguine Strength:2 Weakness:0
5%
Choleric Strength:2 Weakness:3
13%


...
Not perfect matches (like INTP's coming out Melancholy), but very close. (Especially for INTJ (MelChlor) and INFJ (MelPhleg)!)
...


If that makes me fall under INFJ, then what would INFP fall under?

[ciphersort]

Your personality is Choleric Melancholy.

[CreativeChaos]

Actually, it my expositions, I have been showing that they do correspond, even if loosely. Not perfect matches (like INTP's coming out Melancholy), but very close. (Especially for INTJ (MelChlor) and INFJ (MelPhleg)!)


Well here are the four descriptions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Temperaments


Sanguine
A person who is sanguine is generally light-hearted, funloving, a people person, loves to entertain, spontaneous, leader abilities, and confident. However they can be arrogant, cocky, and indulgent. He/She can be day-dreamy and off-task to the point of not accomplishing anything and can be impulsive, possibly acting on whims in an unpredictable fashion. The humour of Sanguine was once commonly treated with leeches. The reason it is treated with leeches is based on the process of the blood being sucked out and being able to understand the effect of the process.

Choleric
A person who is choleric is a doer. They have a lot of ambition, energy, and passion, and try to instill it in others. They can dominate people of other temperaments, especially phlegmatic types. Many great charismatic military and political figures were cholerics. On the negative side, they are easily angered or bad-tempered.

Melancholic
A person who is a thoughtful ponderer has a melancholic disposition. Often very kind and considerate, melancholics can be highly creative – as in poetry and art - but also can become overly pre-occupied with the tragedy and cruelty in the world, thus becoming depressed. A melancholic is also often a perfectionist, being very particular about what they want and how they want it in some cases. This often results in being unsatisfied with one's own artistic or creative works and always pointing out to themselves what could and should be improved. They are often loners and most times choose to stay alone and reflect.

Phlegmatic
While phlegmatic are generally self-content and kind, their shy personality can often inhibit enthusiasm in others and make themselves lazy and resistant to change. They are very consistent, relaxed, rational, curious, and observant, making them good administrators and diplomats. Like the sanguine personality, the phlegmatic has many friends. However the phlegmatic is more reliable and compassionate; these characteristics typically make the phlegmatic a more dependable friend.



Sanguine certainly easily fits ESPs, but not ISPs.

Choloric would easily fit many SJs, ENTJs, ESTPs, ENFJs, INTJs and probably other J's I'm not thinking of.

However, melancholoric and phlegmatic doesn't really fit a type.

With phlegmatic, lazy would indicate a P, consistant would indicate a J, rational an NT, good administrator an SJ, diplomat an ENF or EST.

Melancholoric, thoughtful, kind and considerate would be NF, overly concerned with tragedy=NF, loners would point to INF or any I, ISFPs can fit this, as well as INTPs.

And the fact it is so old, from Greek gods, it just isn't that accurate. Although it was very good for its day. Way back when I don't know which Christian person brought it back into the light.

And then combining them? That gets even more confusing. It's just not a good fit. Some types can fit some, but not all. It's like the Enneagram, only worse. There is no distinct fit with the Enneagram either. But this fitting is even looser to the point of too loose.

[CreativeChaos]

Okay, I took the test and answered as honestly as I could. Otherwise it wouldn't be a good test of the test. These are my results. Note OP that I am NOT INTP. I was not going to take it but...

MelancholySanguine

Melancholy 33%

Phlegmatic 18%

Saguine 33%

Choloric 18%

[Dio]

Being Choleric-Melancholy is fun. Well, sort of ...

[Pooja]

Sanguine Melancholy


Melancholy 30% Strength:5 Weakness:7

Phlegmatic 23% Strength:5 Weakness:4

Sanguine 31% Strength:7 Weakness:6

Choleric 15% Strength:3 Weakness:3



I think I scored highly as sanguine because I tend to be easy-going and scatter-brained. From the wikipedia description, I relate more with melancholy.

[Eric B]

Melancholy Phlegmatic

Melancholy Strength:6 Weakness:13
48%
Phlegmatic Strength:10 Weakness:4
35%
Sanguine Strength:2 Weakness:0
5%
Choleric Strength:2 Weakness:3
13%

If that makes me fall under INFJ, then what would INFP fall under?
INFP would be pure Phlegmatic, or since there will always be a second place temperament in this test, it would be a very high Phlegmatic score above the others. There is also the five temperament test, and INFP's are also very Supine.

Well here are the four descriptions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Temperaments

Sanguine certainly easily fits ESPs, but not ISPs.
For ISP's, the Sanguine would lie in the SP, and this actually agrees with Keirsey. He said SP was the Sanguine. SP would be more leadership style, while those descriptions you referenced and what we normally think of the temperaments would be more the Interaction Styles, in which Sanguine would be ESF and ENP. ("Get Things Going")

While those behaviors listed in those descriptions are tendencies, the best way to define temperament is by their elemental definitions:

Melancholy: reserved, task focused
Choleric: expressive, task focused
Sanguine: expressive, people focused
Phlegmatic: reserved, people focused
(In the five temperament system, Phlegmatic is actually moderate in both scales, and Supine is reserved, people focused. In the conversion to four temperaments/interaction styles, it fits most closely with Phlegmatic in overal behavior).

I believe that for Interaction Styles, expressive/reserved is E/I, and people/task is informing/directing.
For Keirsey's temperaments, expressive/reserved follows pragmatic/cooperative, and people/task is Berens' "motive/structure".
Hence the two temperament matrices overlaid in each of the types.



Choloric would easily fit many SJs, ENTJs, ESTPs, ENFJs, INTJs and probably other J's I'm not thinking of.
True! ENTJ: pure Choleric; ESTP: Choleric Sanguine; ENFJ: Choleric Phlegmatic; INTJ: Melancholy Choleric. Another J is ESTJ: Choleric Melancholy.

However, melancholoric and phlegmatic doesn't really fit a type. Melancholy is any SJ, IST or INJ; the ISTJ being the "pure" type.
Phlegmatic is a bit more tricky, as the classic temperament descriptions are really more moderate as I have just said, and thus don't completely fit the reserved/people focused ISF, INP or NF types. In a way, those might be more Supine, though that temperament is not completely portrayed either, since it is a newly identified category. Those types seem to match something between Supine and Phlegmatic, and INFP's who take the five temperament test do often come out heavily both. (And there is such a hybrid of the two temperaments in the full five temperament system). INFJ's tend to come out Melancholy-Supine if not Melancholy Phlegmatic.


With phlegmatic, lazy would indicate a P, consistant would indicate a J, rational an NT, good administrator an SJ, diplomat an ENF or EST.

Melancholoric, thoughtful, kind and considerate would be NF, overly concerned with tragedy=NF, loners would point to INF or any I, ISFPs can fit this, as well as INTPs. Again, you can't always match all of those behaviors to particular letters. I would say that since the pure Phlegmatic would fall into an INFP, yes, the P can be connected to their laziness. They have low energy, which I believe is connected with their moderate nature. Hence, NF is the temperament assigned the "diplomatic" skills set, which is a great evidence against Keirsey's notion that NF is Choleric and NT is Phlegmatic. This is also what drives their "consistency", whatever "rationality" they have, and being a good administrator. They do not have much emotional energy, and try to conserve whatever they have. This is different from the NT and SJ's drives, though it may produce similar behavior at times.

As for the Melancholy, these descriptions are based on the pure temperament. The pure Melancholy is ISTJ, and they have tertiary Fi, which is where those "feeling"-like traits come from, and the tertiary complex often "inflates" itself. Especially for women, who are geared toward "F" behavior traditionally anyway, and the dominant Si retaining the values that were learned.
"Loner" is from being introverted and directive (Chart the Course: task-oriented, and basically reject people). ISFP's and INTP's may seem like that on the surface, but their interaction style is still more people-focused.


And the fact it is so old, from Greek gods, it just isn't that accurate. Although it was very good for its day. Way back when I don't know which Christian person brought it back into the light. It was probably LaHaye who brought it back for the Christians of the last half century. Before then, Eysenck used them, with Neuroticism replacing people/task (and Neuroticism would eventually become the fifth factor in FFM).

I think their antiquity makes them good and solid. The framework underlying them (the factor matrix I outlined above) fits with the modern instruments. What's outdated from the ancient use is the belief that they were actually caused by body fluids. But nobody who uses them today believes in that. It's just the names that have stuck, and I think they are better (fitting, yet in a way neutral) than the modern names people come up with, which lend themselves to stereotypes and are often only partially accurate or vary according to the type/role variant. ("Artisan", "Rational" etc).


And then combining them? That gets even more confusing. It's just not a good fit. Some types can fit some, but not all. It's like the Enneagram, only worse. There is no distinct fit with the Enneagram either. But this fitting is even looser to the point of too loose. Well, again, you're probably looking just at those descriptions, but the underlying concepts do match, even if test results do not always. (We know how imperfect tests are anyway).

Okay, I took the test and answered as honestly as I could. Otherwise it wouldn't be a good test of the test. These are my results. Note OP that I am NOT INTP. I was not going to take it but...

MelancholySanguine

Melancholy 33%

Phlegmatic 18%

Saguine 33%

Choloric 18%

OK, so for you, it did not match. There's all sorts of reasons why, and I believe it is the limitation of the test. In fact, this is not really a "test" at all, but just picking "traits" out of a list. Traits are really not the best definition of temperaments. But it does give an idea, and with many others, it did fit their type better. Also, as INFP you could be Supine, and since that is not included in this four temperament test, then you have to come out as something, and Supine does have a lot in common with Sanguine and Melancholy as well.

There actually was a thread for the five temperament "traits" test with the link, here:
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=31105

[CreativeChaos]

Well, again, you're probably looking just at those descriptions, but the underlying concepts do match, even if test results do not always. (We know how imperfect tests are anyway).


OK, so for you, it did not match. There's all sorts of reasons why, and I believe it is the limitation of the test. In fact, this is not really a "test" at all, but just picking "traits" out of a list. Traits are really not the best definition of temperaments. But it does give an idea, and with many others, it did fit their type better. Also, as INFP you could be Supine, and since that is not included in this four temperament test, then you have to come out as something, and Supine does have a lot in common with Sanguine and Melancholy as well.

There actually was a thread for the five temperament "traits" test with the link, here:
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=31105

Well, I see now that you are a proponent Eric B. I skimmed over your posts...really. It's hard to catch up on a long thread. I read your previous post thouroughly, though.

I'm also sorry that I don't have enough time or interest to explore this further with you. I've studied this temperment sorter, and I just find MBTI to be more specific and accurate. But even it, is not the be all and end all.

I'm was not even aware that I didn't match. I looked at the Supine traits and found some of them to fit. Frankly as oddly as I found Sanguine and Melancholy to be rather opposite, it sort of made sense to me, in some way, that I'm a little of both.

I admire your obvious passion, Eric B. Keep it up! :happpy: At some point in time I may be able to come back to this.

[Cheat1011]

Your personality is Choleric Phlegmatic.
Melancholy Strength:7 Weakness:2
23%
Phlegmatic Strength:6 Weakness:5
28%
Sanguine Strength:3 Weakness:6
23%
Choleric Strength:4 Weakness:7
28%

Does this correlate with MBTI well?

[Within]

Melancholy Choleric

Melancholy: Strength:11 Weakness:8
Phlegmatic: Strength:2 Weakness:3
Sanguine: Strength:2 Weakness:3
Choleric: Strength:5 Weakness:6

[Perseus]

Hello everyone. I am an INTJ and I am running my own independent research on types and temperaments. What is the prevailing temperament or temperament blends for INTPs?

Here's the link to the test:
h t t p ://w w w. o n e i s h y . c o m / p e r s o n a l i t y / p e r s o n a l i t y _ t e s t . p h p
(I can't post URL's yet)

I am a Mel-Chlor.

Typical Hawkeye INTJ view. Higher up in the clouds where the Eagle INTP flies there are at least 12 or 24 obvious temperaments spread out with an initial 384 variants in the framework of the manifest. I am PN, therefore my natural temperament is Psychedelic (one of 24 temperaments and not one of the standard four types).

[Eric B]

Your personality is Choleric Phlegmatic.
Melancholy Strength:7 Weakness:2
23%
Phlegmatic Strength:6 Weakness:5
28%
Sanguine Strength:3 Weakness:6
23%
Choleric Strength:4 Weakness:7
28%

Does this correlate with MBTI well?

Yeah, another match! Phlegmatic=INP; Choleric=NT. (Though for other INTP's, either the Phlegmatic or Choleric ends up getting replaced with Melancholy, but that temperament is adjacent to both of the others, so it's still not that far off).

[RavenSnow]

I scored Mel-Phl. The breakdown is as follows: Melancholy 43%, Phlegmatic 28%, Choleric 23%, and Sanguine 8%.