accidental shootings

[hoodrich84]

I'm sick and tired of watching and reading the same stories over and over again.

As much as I feel bad for the victims of racial profiling and accidental shootings from white officers. I cannot emphasize enough that these victims should at least have complied with the law and its suspicious nature for the well beings of its citizens.

In case two, you just should not move at all if an officer points a gun at you.

case1: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/01/09/simon.us.shooting.protest.cnn?iref=24hours
case2: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

The officers are guilty of charge but everyone knows that if you don't follow directions and flinch even the slightest muscle in the presence of a pistol, you will eventually get shot.

I think that these victims are a victim of Ignorance and pride. two of the seven deadliest sins from the bible.
Anyways, both sides are to blame.

[MacGuffin]

I think it is a misnomer to call these "accidental" shootings.

[outmywindow]

I think it is a misnomer to call these "accidental" shootings.
In the case of the Oakland shooting, if you watch the cop's reaction after his gun went off, I can't think of a more appropriate word for it than sheer surprise. This isn't to say that he shouldn't be investigated and punished for what happened, but just that calling this situation "the next Rodney King" (as some locals are doing) is a misnomer. The Rodney King guys knew what they were doing was wrong and did it anyway, sure that they weren't being watched. This BART cop was in full view of an entire train of people, and was positioned in such a way that he was just as likely to hit a fellow officer as he was the eventual victim.

I don't know what happened (no one does -- the officer is refusing to talk), but I don't think the shooting itself was intentional. The whole thing is weird though ... (the taser is on the other side of the body, no other officers had drawn their weapons, Grant and the other suspects didn't appear to be enough of a threat to warrant the use of force beyond that of physical restraint, etc.)

[MacGuffin]

If your weapon is out, and your finger is on the trigger, and you are pointing it in the direction of another human being, you shouldn't be surprised you shot someone. It's basic gun safety.

[Vagabond]

I didn't watch the videos, but on the general premise of this:

everyone knows that if you don't follow directions and flinch even the slightest muscle in the presence of a pistol, you will eventually get shot.
[...]
Anyways, both sides are to blame.

Equally, everyone knows that if you are a young female, walking in dark places alone at night, you will eventually get raped. Both sides to blame.

Not.

[outmywindow]

If your weapon is out, and your finger is on the trigger, and you are pointing it in the direction of another human being, you shouldn't be surprised you shot someone. It's basic gun safety.
I know that. The cop had his gun pulled for maybe a second before it went off. There's a difference between presumably sloppy safety techniques, and intentionally shooting someone in the back.

I'm just trying to remain objective and rational about this particular situation amidst the sea of emotionally charged, hyperbolic sentiments being tossed around in the Bay Area. Huge groups of people were rioting throughout downtown Oakland and smashing up businesses, lighting vehicles on fire, etc., and thinking their owners should "be glad [they] just lost [their] business and not [their] life," which is absolutely ridiculous.

[CEOofRawness]

Case 1 was obviously NOT an accident. There were three police officers restraining that guy who was FACE DOWN ON THE FLOOR. He had no reason to pull out his gun and shoot him in the back. "Accidental" my ass.

[outmywindow]

Case 1 was obviously NOT an accident. There were three police officers restraining that guy who was FACE DOWN ON THE FLOOR. He had no reason to pull out his gun and shoot him in the back. "Accidental" my ass.
He pulled his gun on purpose, yes. Did he fire it on purpose? Cannot be determined at this point.

edit: That said, I have no idea why he thought pulling the gun was even necessary at that point.

[CEOofRawness]

I know that. The cop had his gun pulled for maybe a second before it went off. There's a difference between presumably sloppy safety techniques, and intentionally shooting someone in the back.

I'm just trying to remain objective and rational about this particular situation amidst the sea of emotionally charged, hyperbolic sentiments being tossed around in the Bay Area. Huge groups of people were rioting throughout downtown Oakland and smashing up businesses, lighting vehicles on fire, etc., and thinking their owners should "be glad [they] just lost [their] business and not [their] life," which is absolutely ridiculous.

It doesn't excuse the rioting, but if you see the video, that guy was already restrained on the floor, face down, by two other cops. If he really got that out of hand that cop could have easily pulled out his taser, which seems more appropriate. I just don't see any reason why he should have pull out his gun on an unarmed, restrained man.

[outmywindow]

It doesn't excuse the rioting, but if you see the video, that guy was already restrained on the floor, face down, by two other cops. If he really got that out of hand that cop could have easily pulled out his taser, which seems more appropriate. I just don't see any reason why he should have pull out his gun on an unarmed, restrained man.
I agree fully and have watched multiple videos multiple times by virtue of living in the area. All of that said, there are many shades of intent within the letter of the law; which one applies here is the issue I'm interested in.

[ghost]

I'm sick and tired of watching and reading the same stories over and over again.

As much as I feel bad for the victims of racial profiling and accidental shootings from white officers. I cannot emphasize enough that these victims should at least have complied with the law and its suspicious nature for the well beings of its citizens.

In case two, you just should not move at all if an officer points a gun at you.

case1: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/01/09/simon.us.shooting.protest.cnn?iref=24hours
case2: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

The officers are guilty of charge but everyone knows that if you don't follow directions and flinch even the slightest muscle in the presence of a pistol, you will eventually get shot.

I think that these victims are a victim of Ignorance and pride. two of the seven deadliest sins from the bible.
Anyways, both sides are to blame.

I don't think anyone's to blame. They're just humans doing what humans do.

The cops have been trained to shoot people, but have probably never had to shoot a real person before. They have all kinds of noises around them, they're nervous, not sure what the guy they're aiming the gun at is going to do, trying to think clearly, wondering if the guy has a weapon. Then the guy gets shot. Who shot him? Oh it was me. Fuck.

The victim's probably thinking, "I haven't done anything wrong. Why the hell is he pointing a gun at me? How dare he!". And then he makes a move.

We all have moments where we do retarded things that we can't explain. It's unfortunate when weapons are involved.

These situations are filled too much with human emotion and random factors to effectively blame anyone. If you're looking for a rational answer, you won't get one. Being ignorant or prideful aren't very good reasons to be shot. You can provide better training, make better weapons but it's still going to happen sometimes.

[Nighthawk]

I've got a couple of bullets I wish I could call back into the chamber :( Pulling the trigger is very easy. Living with the possible consequences often is not. Once you've got your finger on the trigger in a hairy situation, your body is probably coursing with adrenaline. It's very easy to make a mistake at that point, especially when you're fearing for your own life.

[MoneyJungle]

I would like to know what the protocols are for exactly when a BART officer draws or turns off the safety on their pistol. I would venture that these qualifications were not met in this situation.

[kendoiwan]

If your weapon is out, and your finger is on the trigger, and you are pointing it in the direction of another human being, you shouldn't be surprised you shot someone. It's basic gun safety.

Thank you!!!

[Promethean]

I'm sick and tired of watching and reading the same stories over and over again.

As much as I feel bad for the victims of racial profiling and accidental shootings from white officers. I cannot emphasize enough that these victims should at least have complied with the law and its suspicious nature for the well beings of its citizens.

In case two, you just should not move at all if an officer points a gun at you.

case1: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/01/09/simon.us.shooting.protest.cnn?iref=24hours
case2: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

The officers are guilty of charge but everyone knows that if you don't follow directions and flinch even the slightest muscle in the presence of a pistol, you will eventually get shot.

I think that these victims are a victim of Ignorance and pride. two of the seven deadliest sins from the bible.
Anyways, both sides are to blame.

I couldn't disagree more. Many of the laws in the world are nothing but a violation of individual rights and no one has any obligation whatsoever to follow them. Also officers of the law are intended to be servants of the people and as such should be confered with no special powers or privilages above that of any person.

If a normal person pulled people over and drew down on them for non-violent acts and ended up shooting them, there is no doubt whatsover that they would go to jail. Police should actually be even more restricted than the average person. Since they supposedly act as a servant on behalf of the law, they act in a position that does not confer rights. Only individuals have rights, not law, or governenment.

In any confrontation or arrest, police should have to assume ALL risk. No risk should be assumed by a suspect. Only if actually attacked should police be allowed to use any force, and even then only if they are attempting to investigate or arrest for violent or coersive crimes.

Non-violent and non-coersive acts violate no one and therefore no true plantiff can be produced for rightful prosecution. Any intrusion upon any person for such acts is a violation of a person's sovereinty and rights. In these situations it is actually the suspect that has the right to use any force necessary, not the police regardless of what the law says.

[omnirook]

Anyone who has read my various posts over the few years that I have been a member of the forum is aware that I am not enamored of the police. From long personal experience, I am aware of just how damned corrupt the police are, though I am willing to admit that they are less corrupt than the district attorneys, the judges, and especially the politicians: the worst scum in America is NOT behind bars!

Also, again, anyone who has read my other posts is aware that I do NOT support gun control laws. Sorry - I see them as a means for the pigs who rule us to disarm us. Again - from long personal experience, from having dealt w/many of these bastards - I know damned well that they do NOT give a damn about the public welfare. The public exists for two reasons: 1) to pay taxes and 2) to slave away at degrading and meaningless work for as little pay as possible - the END.

So - as I've seen since 9/11, the police have used every excuse to enhance their weaponry - and they don't mind turning those weapons on society's "undesirables." Sorry - there's just too much of a correspondence between the number of minority victims of police "mistakes" to allow anyone who is not a bigot to believe that minorities are treated in any way that approaches fair.

[Nighthawk]

I would like to know what the protocols are for exactly when a BART officer draws or turns off the safety on their pistol. I would venture that these qualifications were not met in this situation.

True ... rules of engagement exist for very good reasons. Otherwise it could be a free for all. Firing weapons can be like eating potato chips. Once you open up the bag, it's hard to stop.

[Nighthawk]

2) to slave away at degrading and meaningless work for as little pay as possible.

Not to mention all the virtual slave labor going on through our penal system. We have what ... over 2 million prisoners now? They no longer have rights and can be made to work for nothing, or next to nothing.

[Promethean]

Anyone who has read my various posts over the few years that I have been a member of the forum is aware that I am not enamored of the police. From long personal experience, I am aware of just how damned corrupt the police are, though I am willing to admit that they are less corrupt than the district attorneys, the judges, and especially the politicians: the worst scum in America is NOT behind bars!

Also, again, anyone who has read my other posts is aware that I do NOT support gun control laws. Sorry - I see them as a means for the pigs who rule us to disarm us. Again - from long personal experience, from having dealt w/many of these bastards - I know damned well that they do NOT give a damn about the public welfare. The public exists for two reasons: 1) to pay taxes and 2) to slave away at degrading and meaningless work for as little pay as possible - the END.

So - as I've seen since 9/11, the police have used every excuse to enhance their weaponry - and they don't mind turning those weapons on society's "undesirables." Sorry - there's just too much of a correspondence between the number of minority victims of police "mistakes" to allow anyone who is not a bigot to believe that minorities are treated in any way that approaches fair.

I think I like you :)

[kendoiwan]

I appreciate this place alot more all of a sudden :wub:

[Promethean]

We need to party sometime kendoiwan, I'm not too far from NYC. Could maybe get a few others who like, and understand, liberty and have some fun.

[omnirook]

Not to mention all the virtual slave labor going on through our penal system. We have what ... over 2 million prisoners now? They no longer have rights and can be made to work for nothing, or next to nothing.

Now there's a topic! It's incredible the way that the penal system has been turned into a profit-making industry. Only in America! Whole fucking counties across America derive their livelihoods from running prisons. If one considers a prison and the many opportunities for making money , one can see why there is a push on by corporations for "privatizing" the whole system. It's not just the labor: it's also the designing, building, staffing, maintaining, and expanding of the prisons; money can be made by lawyers, judges, journalists, doctors, dentists, etc, etc, etc, - in addition to the guards. There's the "food;" there are the uniforms. It's endless. And, since the ultimate customer is the US taxpayer, not the sky, but the Universe is the limit on the costs. There is no "vested interest" in decreasing the prison population. Oh, no, let's pack the prisons full, then demand more money to build bigger and better. It's obscene, especially when you consider that most of the prisoners are in for bullshit, non-violent drug offenses.

[omnirook]

I think I like you :)

:banana:

[kendoiwan]

Now there's a topic! It's incredible the way that the penal system has been turned into a profit-making industry. Only in America! Whole fucking counties across America derive their livelihoods from running prisons. If one considers a prison and the many opportunities for making money , one can see why there is a push on by corporations for "privatizing" the whole system. It's not just the labor: it's also the designing, building, staffing, maintaining, and expanding of the prisons; money can be made by lawyers, judges, journalists, doctors, dentists, etc, etc, etc, - in addition to the guards. There's the "food;" there are the uniforms. It's endless. And, since the ultimate customer is the US taxpayer, not the sky, but the Universe is the limit on the costs. There is no "vested interest" in decreasing the prison population. Oh, no, let's pack the prisons full, then demand more money to build bigger and better. It's obscene, especially when you consider that most of the prisoners are in for bullshit, non-violent drug offenses.
:worthy:

[Promethean]

I too am highly disgusted with the US prison system for all the reasons you mentioned. It cracks me up when people talk about how cruel and unusual the death penalty is, as if everyone isn't going to die, but have no problem with life sentences in prison. I can think of no more cruel and unusual punishment than putting someone in a cage, surrounded by an atmosphere that demands they behave as an animal to survive. All the while, they are expected to reform and improve themselves.

[kendoiwan]

I too am highly disgusted with the US prison system for all the reasons you mentioned. It cracks me up when people talk about how cruel and unusual the death penalty is, as if everyone isn't going to die, but have no problem with life sentences in prison. I can think of no more cruel and unusual punishment than putting someone in a cage, surrounded by and atmosphere that demands they behave as an animal to survive. All the while, they are expected to reform and improve themselves.

No one ACTUALLY expects them to reform. Society at large turns a blind eye to the travesty of it all, and comfort themselves with bullshit logic that can be summed up as "better them than me, hey I got my I-phone"

[Promethean]

We need a Bastille day! I'd march on a prison.

[kendoiwan]

We need a Bastille day! I'd march on a prison.

:ph34r:

[Oso Mocoso]

I would like to know what the protocols are for exactly when a BART officer draws or turns off the safety on their pistol. I would venture that these qualifications were not met in this situation.

No, not hardly. Having seen the video of the incident I don't even think the situation met the qualifications for the cop to draw his taser (one of the theories being thrown around to explain this was that he mistook his gun for a taser). They pretty much had the men sufficiently subdued. I mean, he was face down on the ground with his hands behind his back. That's not exactly a threatening posture. I really hope that guy's family sees the money from their wrongful death lawsuit.

I don't get why they haven't charged the cop with anything yet. Certainly this was at the least involuntary manslaughter.

[kendoiwan]

No, not hardly. Having seen the video of the incident I don't even think the situation met the qualifications for the cop to draw his taser (one of the theories being thrown around to explain this was that he mistook his gun for a taser). They pretty much had the men sufficiently subdued. I mean, he was face down on the ground with his hands behind his back. That's not exactly a threatening posture. I really hope that guy's family sees the money from their wrongful death lawsuit.

I don't get why they haven't charged the cop with anything yet. Certainly this was at the least involuntary manslaughter.

Jesus Christ I agree with Oso, again, what are the odds?! The world is coming to an end!!! Grab the dehydrated foodstuff and head to the panic room!!! :peep:

[outmywindow]

No, not hardly. Having seen the video of the incident I don't even think the situation met the qualifications for the cop to draw his taser (one of the theories being thrown around to explain this was that he mistook his gun for a taser). They pretty much had the men sufficiently subdued. I mean, he was face down on the ground with his hands behind his back. That's not exactly a threatening posture. I really hope that guy's family sees the money from their wrongful death lawsuit.

I don't get why they haven't charged the cop with anything yet. Certainly this was at the least involuntary manslaughter.
There's no way BART can afford a $25M pay out. Hell, they're already trimming Sunday service in order to save $1M per half year.

Looks like I'm going to have to find another way to get to work.

[Ferrus]

I knew someone who was accidentally truncheoned once.

[kendoiwan]

I knew someone who was accidentally truncheoned once.

You just said that to make me look it up...:reading: Damned Brits...

[Oso Mocoso]

There's no way BART can afford a $25M pay out. Hell, they're already trimming Sunday service in order to save $1M per half year.

Yeah, I know they won't get $25M. I'm under the impression they're just demanding a really really large sum of money to establish that they're outraged this happened. I would expect the actual payout to be smaller and paid over a long period of time.


Looks like I'm going to have to find another way to get to work.

There's always AC Transit.

[outmywindow]

There's always AC Transit.
I use AC Transit to get home since I forged a bus pass (thereby making the rides free). The problem is that I really can't rely on AC to get me to work in anything even remotely resembling a timely manner, which is why I opt to pay for BART on the way to work, but slum it on the way home. My employer's time is worth more than my own, it seems.

I also use BART all the time for purposes other than work, and wouldn't want to give that up either. In other words, my life without a car is very carefully managed via having a working subway stop in my neighborhood. Without that, I think I'd have to pony up and find the money for a car somewhere.

/OT.

[kendoiwan]

My employer's time is worth more than my own, it seems.

:yes: You are a slave after all...

[kendoiwan]

http://news.aol.com/article/court-papers-may-solve-gotti-mystery/298873?icid=200100125x1216971122x1201079368

Dealing wit accidental deaths, Mob style :vader:

[*Strictly_The_Facts*]

Damn... I hope I dont find myself in a fully restrained harmless position and become an "accident" where in the end no is convicted of murder/manslaughter etc..

[CEOofRawness]

Damn... I hope I dont find myself in a fully restrained harmless position and become an "accident" where in the end no is convicted of murder/manslaughter etc..

If you're not black then (statistically) the chances of this "accident" happening to you is much, much lower.

If you are black then well... good luck.

[kendoiwan]

If you're not black then (statistically) the chances of this "accident" happening to you is much, much lower.

If you are black then well... good luck.

You know at the other place they are (mostly) in COMPLETE denial about that fact?

They were all like, he didn't get shot cuz he was black, and I'm like, no but being black increased the odds he'd be shot... :stupid:

[MoneyJungle]

They just picked up the shooter yesterday in Nevada and they are bringing him back to Oakland. I think they might sentence him to watch the A's for an entire season.

[CEOofRawness]

You know at the other place they are in COMPLETE denial about that fact?

They were all like, he didn't get shot cuz he was black, and I'm like, no but being black increased the odds he'd be shot... :stupid:

lol... people swear that racism doesn't happen anymore, especially after electing a "black president".

I remember hanging out with some friends of mine that aren't black, but dark-skinned latins. Cops got a call about a disturbance in the area and they stopped us for some questioning. At one point they told us to put all our hands out in front of us, face down. They let us go afterwards.

While we were walking away one of my friends goes "thank God you were there, I think he was adding up our skin color."

[Oso Mocoso]

They just picked up the shooter yesterday in Nevada and they are bringing him back to Oakland. I think they might sentence him to watch the A's for an entire season.

Worse yet, they could force him to become a Raiders fan.

Actually, I'm just glad that he's being charged with murder. They haven't decided on 1st or 2nd degree murder, but at least it's not another case where the cop gets off with a slap on the wrist.

Regarding him being in Nevada, he wasn't trying to flee. He willingly surrendered to the authorities as soon as a warrant was issued for his arrest.

[kendoiwan]

While we were walking away one of my friends goes "thank God you were there, I think he was adding up our skin color."

LMAO!!!!

description


Worse yet, they could force him to become a Raiders fan.

Cruel and unusual!!!!!:sadbanana:

[MoneyJungle]

Worse yet, they could force him to become a Raiders fan.

Cruel and unusual. I think shocking him with electricity until he dies would be less so.

[zago]

Accidental Shooting

Best accidental shooting ever. Come to think of it, this is what being on salvia is like.

[CEOofRawness]

LMAO!!!!

Thank god they didn't have the chart with them... :mellow: