Why is lobbying legal?

[CEOofRawness]

Isn't the whole point of lobbying to push legislation in favor of special interests? How is this in line with anything constitutional or our supposed democracy?

It's ridiculous that this is even allowed. No one is obviously going to lobby for the benefit of everyone else. The only thing that lobbying does is promote self-interest at the expense of everyone else. No one is lobbying for good causes. And if there are, they are VASTLY outnumbered by those that are lobbying for self-interests.

I think the ratio is like 70 lobbyists per member of Congress. It's a mockery of our government, and should not be allowed.

The question of this thread is rhetorical, by the way. The legislators are the ones that would decide whether or not to make lobbying illegal, and these legislators are the ones being bribed (most anyway, in one way or another).

[eyebyte_atWork]

Rhetorical answer - Duh!


Cause they pay for it!

[kendoiwan]

Rhetorical answer - Duh!


Cause they pay for it!
:highfive:
C.R.E.A.M.

Dollar dollar bill yall

[CEOofRawness]

Rhetorical answer - Duh!


Cause they pay for it!

I would like to think that people aren't THAT dumb and would catch on by now that the Peoples' interest takes a backseat to special interest groups. With the bailout going on people are paying attention more to corporate lies and scandals, and lobbying is one of them.

My biggest problem is that lobbying is so blatant with a high potential with corruption that it will destroy any sense of a "democracy" we believe we have left.

[kendoiwan]

I would like to think that people aren't THAT dumb and would catch on by now that the Peoples' interest takes a backseat to special interest groups. With the bailout going on people are paying attention more to corporate lies and scandals, and lobbying is one of them.

My biggest problem is that lobbying is so blatant with a high potential with corruption that it will destroy any sense of a "democracy" we believe we have left.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=33376

[CEOofRawness]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=33376

:think:

I can see a relevance to the topic, but I don't see your point.

[kendoiwan]

:think:

I can see a relevance to the topic, but I don't see your point.

People see these things as a "natural" occurrence. No reason to question, or complain about it...

[quantumzero]

Green, spendin' cabbage, jingle, clams, duckets etc. Oh, and an occasional prostitute and a cigar.

[CEOofRawness]

People see these things as a "natural" occurrence. No reason to question, or complain about it...

It's also "natural" for the strong to dominate the weak, but the role of government is to limit that and give everyone an equal shot at life (as well as keeping the people from harming one another).

I'm surprised that this hasn't surfaced as a serious issue like global warming, our economy, health care, the war, etc. Lobbying affects all of these issues, since the lobbyists are basically fucking the rest of us over for the benefit of the elite.

[CEOofRawness]

Green, spendin' cabbage, jingle, clams, duckets etc. Oh, and an occasional prostitute and a cigar.

Point made. :highfive:

[Dr. Haight]

Theoretically . . . Congress represents the people's interests, and lobbies represent the interests of the business sphere. These are two competing interests (similar to Unions Vs. Corporations) that both need, and have a legal right, to influence legislation. Therefore without a lobby, this country would become socialist nation rather quickly and that road is opposed by 99% of the folks that are in a position to criminalize our lobbying system.

[kendoiwan]

It's also "natural" for the strong to dominate the weak, but the role of government is to limit that and give everyone an equal shot at life (as well as keeping the people from harming one another).

I'm surprised that this hasn't surfaced as a serious issue like global warming, our economy, health care, the war, etc. Lobbying affects all of these issues, since the lobbyists are basically fucking the rest of us over for the benefit of the elite.

Oh it comes up every election cycle, but then they remember who in fact is paying for these campaigns and who actually writes the legislation and...

[kendoiwan]

Theoretically . . . Congress represents the people's interests, and lobbies represent the interests of the business sphere. These are two competing interests (similar to Unions Vs. Corporations) that both need, and have a legal right, to influence legislation. Therefore without a lobby, this country would become socialist nation rather fast and that road is opposed by 99% of the folks that are in a position to criminalize our lobbying system.

Crazy theories...

[lowtech redneck]

Its legal because ALL interests are "special interests." Lobbying allows citizens within an polyarchy to pool resources in support of the issue they have in common in an attempt to convince legislators to vote in their favor. If lobbying were virtually absent, it would be an indicator that the system is an oligopoly.

[kendoiwan]

Its legal because ALL interests are "special interests." Lobbying allows citizens within an oligarchy to pool resources in support of the issue they have in common in an attempt to convince legislators to vote in their favor. If lobbying were virtually absent, it would be an indicator that the system is an oligopoly.

Too bad the presence of lobbies isn't an indicator that it isn't...

[Dr. Haight]

Its legal because ALL interests are "special interests." Lobbying allows citizens within an oligarchy to pool resources in support of the issue they have in common in an attempt to convince legislators to vote in their favor. If lobbying were virtually absent, it would be an indicator that the system is an oligopoly.I have bad news for you . . . we have an oligarchy currently - and we have since the conception of the US. Without a lobby, we'd move closer to an actual Democracy by giving individual voters greater power in the political process.

Of course, Congressional representatives would support the agenda of the principal employers within their districts based on campaign finance needs. However, the business sphere would lose a significant portion of their power to influence legislation in their favor.

[CEOofRawness]

Theoretically . . . Congress represents the people's interests, and lobbies represent the interests of the business sphere. These are two competing interests (similar to Unions Vs. Corporations) that both need, and have a legal right, to influence legislation. Therefore without a lobby, this country would become socialist nation rather quickly and that road is opposed by 99% of the folks that are in a position to criminalize our lobbying system.

Not really. The reason why we have elections is to elect people into office that represent our needs and concerns. If we have lobbyists convincing Congress to make laws that benefit only their corporations or industries then we'll begin to see a vague oligarchy being set up. I'd prefer a socialist nation than that.

You use socialism with a bad connotation. Why?

[kendoiwan]

Not really. The reason why we have elections is to elect people into office that represent our needs and concerns. If we have lobbyists convincing Congress to make laws that benefit only their corporations or industries then we'll begin to see a vague oligarchy being set up. I'd prefer a socialist nation than that.

You use socialism with a bad connotation. Why?

He was joking...

[CEOofRawness]

However, the business sphere would lose a significant portion of their power to influence legislation in their favor.

So? They have no right to try and gain an advantage through legislation to begin with. The main problem today is that America is run by corporations, and they shouldn't have power to influence legislation to begin with.

[kendoiwan]

So? They have no right to try and gain an advantage through legislation to begin with. The main problem today is that America is run by corporations, and they shouldn't have power to influence legislation to begin with.

Err, low tech was the one arguing in favor of the lobbies...

you're missing context here:joft:

[CEOofRawness]

He was joking...

Well that one went well over my head :mellow:

I need to wake the fuck up :banghead:

...

:banana:

[CEOofRawness]

Err, low tech was the one arguing in favor of the lobbies...

you're missing context here:joft:

Either you're with us, or you're against us! :mad:

(I think I woke up as Dubya today...)

[Dr. Haight]

Not really. The reason why we have elections is to elect people into office that represent our needs and concerns. If we have lobbyists convincing Congress to make laws that benefit only their corporations or industries then we'll begin to see a vague oligarchy being set up. I'd prefer a socialist nation than that.Corporations are legal entities with the same rights as individuals. Additionally, non-corporate individuals have a right to gather together, form a collective agenda, and lobby government for support of that agenda.

I see how you could be opposed to the former, but being opposed to the later would make you a Stalinist.


You use socialism with a bad connotation. Why?Bad read on your part. I'm an Anarchist.

[kendoiwan]

Corporations are legal entities with the same rights as individuals.


They only have those rights due to an amendment of the constitution, the 19th or some such number... We should repeal that, and strip them of those rights...

[Dr. Haight]

I'm all for that. But my second sentence is where I'd never support the abolishment of lobbies within our political system, since those with exorbitant financial resources would dominate our political system.

[kendoiwan]

I'm all for that. But my second sentence is where I'd never support the abolishment of lobbies within our political system.

Well if they ever work in practice the way they're s'posed to in theory, you've got my vote. :happpy:

[Dr. Haight]

Well if they ever work in practice the way they're s'posed to in theory, you've got my vote. :happpy:Of course.

In PoliSci classes, they used to describe this as the "Golden Triangle." Where in, the Legislative Branch has a side, the Executive Branch has another side, and the Lobbies make up the third. The "Golden" is a reference to how the business sphere influences all three sides via corporate lobbies and campaign financing.

The trick, in my opinion, is to deal with campaign financing issues which gives the business sphere a disproportional amount of power to influence legislation.

[lowtech redneck]

I have bad news for you . . . we have an oligarchy currently - and we have since the conception of the US. Without a lobby, we'd move closer to an actual Democracy by giving individual voters greater power in the political process.


Oops, I meant to use the word "polyarchy", not oligarchy. I have edited my previous post to reflect that.

What I was referring to is the fact that lobbyist are so prevalent in the United States because our institutions ensure that our elected officials have more independence (and less financial support) from party bosses, and more accountability to constituents, than is the case in most liberal democracies. Lobbying (which is not restricted to business groups), like pork, is a natural consequence of this. If we had a more oligarchic democracy, such groups would only need to lobby the party leadership, resulting in a lower profile for lobbyist (and likely resulting in a corporatists evironment, as smaller interests groups would not be as effective as they are now).