[Mafia 2] Public voting thread

[puzzled-observer]

Townies PSA: Do not vote in public voting thread. Doing this makes it very easy for the mafia members to alter their votes to get the distribution they want in the final tally. If we pm our official votes to narrator, it will be much more difficult for them to predict the outcome-- and therefore somewhat more useful for us.

Henceforth I say anyone who votes (or encourages voting) in a public thread will be considered suspicious.

Disagreements? Agreements?

edit: Haha.... poll is private.... my mistake. The results should be funny either way, i think.

[manza]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=33841

[puzzled-observer]

oops

[edit] well either way, too many people (myself included) voted in the public poll. I believe we still have the option to vote privately by pm (as it's stated in the rules). So, the townies should implement the practice post haste.

[Works]

Townies PSA: Do not vote in public voting thread. Doing this makes it very easy for the mafia members to alter their votes to get the distribution they want in the final tally. If we pm our official votes to narrator, it will be much more difficult for them to predict the outcome-- and therefore somewhat more useful for us.

Henceforth I say anyone who votes (or encourages voting) in a public thread will be considered suspicious.

Disagreements? Agreements?

I disagree, like a lot.

Transparency is what we need. Like hell I'm going to trust everyone without knowing what they are doing and I'm trusting you a lot less now. This may just be a bad idea though instead of deliberate sabotage.

[Etherealsage]

Actually... I agree, particularly if Oso makes a tally at the end every time (only if). Only downside is that it will cut down on communication among townies.

[LastRailway]

I can see pros and cons for both sides.



Transparency is what we need. Like hell I'm going to trust everyone without knowing what they are doing and I'm trusting you a lot less now. This may just be a bad idea though instead of deliberate sabotage.

Totally agreed.


Only downside is that it will cut down on communication among townies.

Yep, that too.

On the other hand it'd make less obvious our targets and Mafia won't have it that easy.

In all cases, since we can change votes until the last minute, I think it should stay as it is. Noone is to be trusted here, better to know what each one is up to.

[puzzled-observer]

Actually... I agree, particularly if Oso makes a tally at the end every time (only if). Only downside is that it will cut down on communication among townies.
Right , the assumption is that Oso will make the tally at the end just like the first game. If he didn't, there'd be no game at all. We can still communicate in other threads. It's just that the official vote will be hidden till the lynching.

[puzzled-observer]

I disagree, like a lot.

Transparency is what we need. Like hell I'm going to trust everyone without knowing what they are doing and I'm trusting you a lot less now. This may just be a bad idea though instead of deliberate sabotage.

We still see what people DID. Which is the same as seeing what they're doing.
It's just that the mafia have less opportunity to affect the results. The townies information doesn't change. Only the Mafia's does.

[LastRailway]

Right , the assumption is that Oso will make the tally at the end just like the first game. If he didn't, there'd be no game at all. We can still communicate in other threads. It's just that the official vote will be hidden till the lynching.

The more I think of it, the more I disagree.

Only Mafia wins that way. We have to use the other threads and publicly state our opinions in order to influence other townies, so the Mafiosi know what our plans are.
Still, we don't know until it's very late, if fellow townies or presumed townies voted the way they said they would.

No, since we don't have private communication, I prefer every move of everyone to be public.

[Works]

We still see what people DID. Which is the same as seeing what they're doing.
It's just that the mafia have less opportunity to affect the results. The townies information doesn't change. Only the Mafia's does.

Better to see what they are doing and the process they took to get there.

[Etherealsage]

The only way it would work then is if we were to send reasoning to Oso and he were to copy/paste our words with our vote.

Edit: I guess that assumes truth. Oh well.

[puzzled-observer]

The more I think of it, the more I disagree.

Only Mafia wins that way. We have to use the other threads and publicly state our opinions in order to influence other townies, so the Mafiosi know what our plans are.
Still, we don't know until it's very late, if fellow townies or presumed townies voted the way they said they would.

No, since we don't have private communication, I prefer every move of everyone to be public.


Better to see what they are doing and the process they took to get there.
This is really leading me to suspect you people, by the way. You played in the previous game. You know vote by pm works better for townies.

I'm fully in agreement that people's reasonings for their suspects be placed in a public thread. I'm fully in agreement that people should discuss everything. If they don't place their reasonings publicly, they become suspect. BUT their actual votes should be hidden to prevent tampering.
It makes it so easy for the mafia-- they just have to go down the vote thread and tally the votes up and distribute themselves proportionally even with the townies. We'll never get any useful information if they can do that.

[Works]

This is really leading me to suspect you people, by the way. You played in the previous game. You know vote by pm works better for townies.

I'm fully in agreement that people's reasonings for their suspects be placed in a public thread. I'm fully in agreement that people should discuss everything. If they don't place their reasonings publicly, they become suspect. BUT their actual votes should be hidden to prevent tampering.
It makes it so easy for the mafia-- they just have to go down the vote thread and tally the votes up and distribute themselves proportionally even with the townies. We'll never get any useful information if they can do that.

Private discussion in pm works better for townies. Voting does not.

[Etherealsage]

Private discussion in pm works better for townies. Voting does not.
Works, elaborate, please? I feel like I'm missing something. :stupid:

[LastRailway]

This is really leading me to suspect you people, by the way. You played in the previous game. You know vote by pm works better for townies.

This is leading me to suspect you too.

If all the discussion is going to be open and in public, if we all will have to share who we're voting, anyway, how does PMing our vote protects our privacy?
It only protects spies and moles who claim they're voting against someone and then they vote someone else.

And let's make one thing clear:
People, forget the last time. Seriously.
Rules are pretty different now, and what functioned last time may won't function now as well.


Works, elaborate, please? I feel like I'm missing something. :stupid:

You were not playing last game.
Townies exchanged an incredible number of PMs among them.
Aelan send me like 100 PMs by that time.

In fact I disliked this system too. They were claiming that other members had said something to them by PM and I was supposed to take their word for that. Aelan turned out to be sincere, but that was a coincidence, the system was not good eitherway.
The most useful PM I exchanged with another player, as a matter of fact, was one with Works :P It was kind of decisive for me.

[Works]

Works, elaborate, please? I feel like I'm missing something. :stupid:

In the last game townies were able to organize in private to vet and determine whose allegiance they had. The communicated in PMs and gave orders from a high for the rest of the noobs to follow. This sort of organization (along with my inability to really sustain a lie) really worked to the townspeople's advantage. You could see the votes at the end, but not how people changed the votes over time to reflect at what point they decided to vote for a certain person.

Public, transparent votes net us better data in real time.

[puzzled-observer]

It only protects spies and moles who claim they're voting against someone and then they vote someone else. function now as well.
No, because oso will post a tally of the votes AFTER the lynching and we'll see who the true spies are. It gives us clearer - purer data. This is something that very clearly WILL help the townies. The rules weren't different in any way last game that would affect this aspect of the game.

[LastRailway]

No, because oso will post a tally of the votes AFTER the lynching and we'll see who the true spies are. It gives us clearer - purer data. This is something that very clearly WILL help the townies. The rules weren't different in any way last game that would affect this aspect of the game.

I see your point, but you should see also that it's not that clear that this would help townies.

It has pros and cons, as I was saying and I tend to think the cons are slightly more. I, for one, would feel more comfortable with transparency, especially since we have players that are *very* quiet.

[Works]

I see your point, but you should see also that it's not that clear that this would help townies.

It has pros and cons, as I was saying and I tend to think the cons are slightly more. I, for one, would feel more comfortable with transparency, especially since we have players that are *very* quiet.

So do we wait for the next murder?

[Etherealsage]

I, for one, would feel more comfortable with transparency, especially since we have players that are *very* quiet.
You're right. We have a few players who either have not said much at all or nothing at all. If they stay that way, we won't know if they're mafia or townies, and we'll have to resume taking shots in the dark. (And now I know what I was missing.)

[Works]

You're right. We have a few players who either have not said much at all or nothing at all. If they stay that way, we won't know if they're mafia or townies, and we'll have to resume taking shots in the dark. (And now I know what I was missing.)

I'd say we deliver this ultimatum after this next murder and lynching cycle, either start talking or become suspect. Or play another damn game.

[LastRailway]

So do we wait for the next murder?

Not many other options, really.

If I get killed, I want my body to be sent to my parents or to get buried in a proper cemetery, if sending is not possible. I'm not donating any organs, sorry.

[Etherealsage]

I'd say we deliver this ultimatum after this next murder and lynching cycle, either start talking or become suspect. Or play another damn game.
Agreed. Too many unknowns, and that just helps the mafia stay shadowed.

[puzzled-observer]

I see your point, but you should see also that it's not that clear that this would help townies.

It has pros and cons, as I was saying and I tend to think the cons are slightly more. I, for one, would feel more comfortable with transparency, especially since we have players that are *very* quiet.
I don't see how their quietness affects this. Either they vote for someone and explain their reasoning in the town square thread. Or they don't vote for someone and don't explain their reasonings in the other thread.

Please explain how this will be affected in a clear, non nebulous, sense.

edit: All the cons you bring up are these ambiguous quantities. It's not transparent-- The townies only get data from the final tally. They can't derive any information from the pre-final tallies - The only thing that might offer ANY information at all is seeing when someone votes (but there's no way to tell if they have something to do in real life or if they got distracted or one of a million other reasons). It's essentially useless for the townies to have the voting public until after the lynching.

[Etherealsage]

I don't see how their quietness affects this. Either they vote for someone and explain their reasoning in the town square thread. Or they don't vote for someone and don't explain their reasonings in the other thread.

Please explain how this will be affected in a clear, non nebulous, sense.
Simple, if they're mafia, we're just picking at each other stupidly while they shoot us off one by one. If they're townies, the mafia has more influence in town votes.

[LastRailway]

I don't see how their quietness affects this. Either they vote for someone and explain their reasoning in the town square thread. Or they don't vote for someone and don't explain their reasonings in the other thread.

Please explain how this will be affected in a clear, non nebulous, sense.

Ok, in fact I won't explain anything, just share the results of some quick searches I just did.

Let's take an example: you.

In the first turn, your only post in the voting thread was this one:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1049084&postcount=35

In fact, your voted broke the tie between syzygy and 2ds, and I find this a useful piece of information about your agenta.

Town square thread:
Two posts, none of them very serious:
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048161&postcount=13
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048143&postcount=9

I wonder what are you up to, really. Why you don't participate on the first turn *at all*, you don't contribute anything and then, suddenly, on the new turn, you come out and ask for more secrecy among the players and the voting process?

[Works]

Interesting collection of data there. I'm willing to lynch puzzled or autumn or 2ds. Who do we feel most strongly about?

[LastRailway]

Interesting collection of data there. I'm willing to lynch puzzled or autumn or 2ds. Who do we feel most strongly about?

It changes with an amazing speed.

It's like the whole Mafia decided to suddenly come out of the shadows and give signs of existence.

I'm thinking to stick with 2ds for now, but nothing definite yet.

[puzzled-observer]

Ok, in fact I won't explain anything, just share the results of some quick searches I just did.

Let's take an example: you.

In the first turn, your only post in the voting thread was this one:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1049084&postcount=35

In fact, your voted broke the tie between syzygy and 2ds, and I find this a useful piece of information about your agenta.

Town square thread:
Two posts, none of them very serious:
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048161&postcount=13
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048143&postcount=9

I wonder what are you up to, really. Why you don't participate on the first turn *at all*, you don't contribute anything and then, suddenly, on the new turn, you come out and ask for more secrecy among the players and the voting process?
See? this is what i was talking about. Yesterday, my uncle had a party I got home pretty late. As i said, i was going to vote randomly because the first vote is just a shot in the dark.

Edit: Notice how you shift from explaining to pointing fingers at me, no doubt. As i said, all you can extract information from is WHEN they vote. Which is all but useless. But seeing how you're all set to lynch me for asking you to explain yourself. I think we know what's really going on.

[Etherealsage]

I'm going with 2ds, he was the first one to make me suspicious. Autumn confuses the hell out of me currently, so I'll wait awhile on that until I get more definitive data. Puzzled is second on my list.

[HappyNoodleBoy]

Why exactly is 2ds a suspect?

[puzzled-observer]

Simple, if they're mafia, we're just picking at each other stupidly while they shoot us off one by one. If they're townies, the mafia has more influence in town votes.
But that doesn't change with private or public vote. We still see who they voted for. We still see whether they discuss things or not.

[Etherealsage]

But that doesn't change with private or public vote. We still see who they voted for. We still see whether they discuss things or not.
That was a reference to why we should ultimatum the quiet ones, which is what I thought you were asking about.

@HNB: Read his posts in here.

[LastRailway]

See? this is what i was talking about. Yesterday, my uncle had a party I got home pretty late. As i said, i was going to vote randomly because the first vote is just a shot in the dark.

Edit: Notice how you shift from explaining to pointing fingers at me, no doubt. As i said, all you can extract information from is WHEN they vote. Which is all but useless. But seeing how you're all set to lynch me for asking you to explain yourself. I think we know what's really going on.

Rhetorics.

I can't explain it any better than what I did and, since I noticed this thread, I was like, WTF, he's playing too? So when I went back to the two threads to find quiet players to illustrate my answer, I did a search for you, for Eye in Tipi and for HappyNoodleGuy.

I'm not even pointing my finger to you, in fact. I am still at complete loss as to what purposes everyone has here. But I'm glad with people starting to participate in any way, cause that helps collect info.

Anyhow, in my example, by knowing the time you voted, publicly and without having stated reasons, I know you're the one to break the tie. Of course that doesn't mean you're Mafia, but, it's an important piece of information and, in more advanced stages of the game, info like this will be valuable.

[puzzled-observer]

Rhetorics.

I can't explain it any better than what I did and, since I noticed this thread, I was like, WTF, he's playing too? So when I went back to the two threads to find quiet players to illustrate my answer, I did a search for you, for Eye in Tipi and for HappyNoodleGuy.

I'm not even pointing my finger to you, in fact. I am still at complete loss as to what purposes everyone has here. But I'm glad with people starting to participate in any way, cause that helps collect info.

Anyhow, in my example, by knowing the time you voted, publicly and without having stated reasons, I know you're the one to break the tie. Of course that doesn't mean you're Mafia, but, it's an important piece of information and, in more advanced stages of the game, info like this will be valuable.

I did state my reasons. I just didn't do it in the voting thread as i assumed that was just for official votes.

If you really need me to find the exact post, i can do that.

[LastRailway]

I did state my reasons. I just didn't do it in the voting thread as i assumed that was just for official votes.

If you really need me to find the exact post, i can do that.

I just searched in two more threads:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/search.php?searchthreadid=33928
http://forums.intpcentral.com/search.php?searchthreadid=33931

and none turned results. So I've only spotted these 3 posts of yours in last turn.

But. I'm not turning my finger on you or anything. I just remark I find this a bit suspicious, still, I totally get that it was weekend and maybe you were occupied.

My whole point is that transparency is crucial and I'm against any obscurification. I prefer Mafia to be able to analyse votes the same way townies will, which maybe will force them to react and make mistakes, than not being able to trust anyone until after a voting has finished.

[HappyNoodleBoy]

That was a reference to why we should ultimatum the quiet ones, which is what I thought you were asking about.

@HNB: Read his posts in here.

All (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048378&postcount=29) five (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048373&postcount=27) of (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048366&postcount=2) them (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048382&postcount=5)? I (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1048799&postcount=16) think I managed to get them all, and none of them merit the suspicion he is getting, which makes me think the mafia is trying to pull another jughead.

[LastRailway]

I think I managed to get them all, and none of them merit the suspicion he is getting, which makes me think the mafia is trying to pull another jughead.

No, his posts don't merit so much suspicion.
But, he's still silent, he didn't make any good argument for himself or against Jughead and then he disappeared.

Since he was the only person I considered even slightly suspicious, I decided to vote against him.

The fact this got many reactions from people who wanted to vote Jughead off - and did vote her off - is what makes me more wary.

[HappyNoodleBoy]

No, his posts don't merit so much suspicion.
But, he's still silent, he didn't make any good argument for himself or against Jughead and then he disappeared.

Since he was the only person I considered even slightly suspicious, I decided to vote against him.

The fact this got many reactions from people who wanted to vote Jughead off - and did vote her off - is what makes me more wary.

I'd still feel safer going after the people who had those reactions, and started the vote on Jughead rather than going after 2ds.

[LastRailway]

I'd still feel safer going after the people who had those reactions, and started the vote on Jughead rather than going after 2ds.

The problem is there was a kind of terrorist attitude from some players, that insisted that whoever does not align their votes with the mob is suspicious and is going to get lynched.

These players used the same tactic in the last game and it - apparently - functioned. So we can't know if people who went after Jughead were Mafia, scared and/or confused townies or what.

[puzzled-observer]

Here's my post, just for you:


http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=33935

"Ok, so, I suppose I'll contribute my half a cent.
I was planning on voting randomly for the first vote (as i don't really think it matters much how I vote particularly). But being that this will arouse suspicion, I suppose I'll be forced to shoot blindly along with all the other sheep. I think Jughead is the best option also (sorry jughead). I think works might be more useful for discovering the mafia's agenda (if he's mafia at all) - I say kill him next round pending new evidence."


Anyway, I still think it'd be much better for townies to have voting by pm. But apparently, that's not going to fly. Whether that's because we have too many vocal mafia or because there's a genuine reason that I'm not really understanding.