MAFIA 3.0 Restart? (and sign up?)

[syzygy]

SIGN UP HERE FOR MAFIA 3.1! FIVE TO SIX SPOTS LEFT!

Oso is narrating, and we start whenever we have 20 players (or we get sick of waiting.)

List of Mafia 3.1 Players
1. Ivy
2. carbon cold
3. md5fungi
4. Kirai
5. djm
6. Slartibartfast
7. LongSilence
8. Madrigal
9. MoneyJungle
10. LastRailway (if after next week.)
11. 2ds
12. cripple
13. mgb
14. Eye-In-TiPi

ORIGINAL POST

This is getting ridiculous. I'm really sorry for this debacle :(

I got a couple of PMs asking for a restart when Ape and aelan were suicided, but I was hoping it would all blow over. I don't believe there was much other cheating going on, and everyone else seemed to be having a good time.

Sign up here for a restart.

I'm also considering switching the votes to private vs. public. What do people think about that?

[Ivy]

Yes restart. I'm still in. But before we get our assignments I want to make clear that I have no problem lying in a game and it doesn't make me a bad person. :grin: In return, go ahead and stab me in the back in-game, I won't be mad if it's all in good fun.

No reason for you to be sorry! It has been fun, just weird. It has been a little uncomfortable because some seem to have really been hurt by it, which I find mystifying but I accept their feelings. I understand not wanting to be a part of a tainted game.

[carbon cold]

I'd love to try this again, but only if everyone else says it's okay. :/

[Ivy]

I probably don't have all the information but I don't see why not. I enjoyed playing alongside you. :)

[syzygy]

I'd love to try this again, but only if everyone else says it's okay. :/

I think it's fine. You didn't resign because you had problems playing the game, but because you didn't want to be tainted by cheating.

[Kirai]

The game seems to have collapsed...

I'm in for the restart.

[djm]

I want to sign up if it restarts.

Of course if it does restart I still think us townies should be declared victors.

[Slartibartfast]

Very well. Purely private voting seems like it would favor mafia.

[Ivy]

Clearly!

[djm]

I prefer public voting, it would be much harder for townies if voting were by secret ballot. Perhaps if it were private until after the lynching, but revealed afterwards it could work.

[LongSilence]

You might want to throw in the president role that Madrigal suggested if you make the voting private. Otherwise, the townies are gonna feel helpless and without much of a clue what to do if they say who they think is Mafia but the vote always inevitably takes out an innocent they didn't pick. Who would they talk to reliably about that?

Oh and I'm in by the way. I was kinda hoping to see who the Mafia would choose to hit on the second turn- I didn't really buy the whole Oso vs Sage thing.

[syzygy]

We are definitely restarting.

By private voting, I meant until after the lynching. Then they get revealed.

Also, what about the detective? Should the people cleared of suspicion be notified that they have been cleared of suspicion?

[djm]

We are definitely restarting.

By private voting, I meant until after the lynching. Then they get revealed.

Also, what about the detective? Should the people cleared of suspicion be notified that they have been cleared of suspicion?

I am out of casino cash again we need a poll on the restart.

[syzygy]

I can't make a poll after I've made the OP, for some reason :(

[Ivy]

I can add one if you want?

[Senka]

Of course if it does restart I still think us townies should be declared victors.

NEVAH!!

[djm]

NEVAH!!

And in Mafia 3.1 there should be a statue of 'aelan the martyr' in the town square - right next to the gallows where the mafia get hung. :)

[syzygy]

I can add one if you want?

That would be great!

Also, adding options on public vs. private voting (private until after the lynching), and whether the detective should be able to tell townies cleared of suspicion that he's investigated them would be good. Hooray for checkboxes!

Why can't I add polls, anyway? I've done it before...

[Ivy]

I don't know- might be a quirk of the permissions in this particular subfolder. I'll add it and check on the permissions for next time.

[LongSilence]

We are definitely restarting.

By private voting, I meant until after the lynching. Then they get revealed.

Also, what about the detective? Should the people cleared of suspicion be notified that they have been cleared of suspicion?

Ah. That would definitely add another level to the amount of recriminations when the votes are revealed. Also, it might actually force the Mafia to have to predict [and perhaps get it wrong about] how the Townies will vote and how many of their own votes they'll have to throw together to perhaps save one of their own.

As for letting innocent townies know they've been checked out, that might serve to help them find out who the Detective is. Now if you were to let the Detective PM those townies he falsely accused that would also lend him a way to let his failed attempts help him when he tries to let the townies know when he has rooted out a Mafia... it's an idea that could do with exploring.

[Anonymous]

And in Mafia 3.1 there should be a statue of 'aelan the martyr' in the town square - right next to the gallows where the mafia get hung. :)

"Aelan the martyr" caused me to waste a perfectly good move! I could have been a hero, but no, she goes and gets herself killed. Enough to make one want to take up the practice of Dr. Kevorkian.

[LongSilence]

Ah but if you hadn't saved her she wouldn't have had the chance to literally take the dirty Dog down with her. And it wasn't a waste of a move at all- if you'd picked someone else it would have been a waste as that person wouldn't have been targeted. Live happy in the knowledge you were a good doctor and that your townies were only brought down by bad lynching and bad Mafia play.

[Ivy]

I haven't voted yet because I'm torn on the extra issues. If the Detective can tell townies after they're cleared, what's stopping mafia from pretending to be the Detective? Or would the moderator tell the townies they're clear and they still wouldn't be allowed to communicate privately with the detective?

[Senka]

The problem with polls is people wouldn't be able to change their votes.

[Anonymous]

Ah but if you hadn't saved her she wouldn't have had the chance to literally take the dirty Dog down with her. And it wasn't a waste of a move at all- if you'd picked someone else it would have been a waste as that person wouldn't have been targeted. Live happy in the knowledge you were a good doctor and that your townies were only brought down by bad lynching and bad Mafia play.

That may be true, but I still want to take up the practice of Dr. Kevorkian. Vigilante and doctor all in one role!

But wasn't it syzygy who offed Ape, not aelan? I thought they were both primarily killed for cheating rather than anything actually gameplay related.

[Madrigal]

I'd like to play. :gm:

[Senka]

I haven't voted yet because I'm torn on the extra issues. If the Detective can tell townies after they're cleared, what's stopping mafia from pretending to be the Detective? Or would the moderator tell the townies they're clear and they still wouldn't be allowed to communicate privately with the detective?

I was thinking something along the lines of a PM from the mod first then open communication if and when the detective wanted it.

[syzygy]

Or would the moderator tell the townies they're clear and they still wouldn't be allowed to communicate privately with the detective?

This one.

[Ivy]

I don't really have an objection to that. I don't know that it will change gameplay since nobody will believe you if you say you've been cleared. :lol:

[Ivy]

Since I was under a misapprehension when I wrote the poll options, I'll edit them now.

[ApeTheDog]

Why not have a game where there are no rules, rather than a whole bunch of them that are impossible to enforce?

Might be a little easier, you know. Just make it so nobody has the possibility to PROVE to the other people what their role is and all this nonsense can be remedied easily.

PS: I don't care to defend myself because THIS IS JUST A GAME. But it's impossible not to lie if you are mafia, and it's impossible not to cheat if not doing so means you have to tell people you are.

[Madrigal]

I'd like to play. :gm:

Hmm I think I take this back - first the people who played the botched game should decide if they still want to play, then I'll sign up if there are any free spots, probably won't be. :) Doesn't matter anyway, I'll have little time.

[cripple]

That may be true, but I still want to take up the practice of Dr. Kevorkian. Vigilante and doctor all in one role!

But wasn't it syzygy who offed Ape, not aelan? I thought they were both primarily killed for cheating rather than anything actually gameplay related.

No, we never killed aelan. I was actually trying to get the others to kill CJ Wolf or Ivy, when Aelan death note came. I think there have been some communication problems here and there.

[syzygy]

No, we never killed aelan. I was actually trying to get the others to kill CJ Wolf or Ivy, when Aeland death note came. I think there have been some communication problems here and there.

The Mafia told me to kill aelan, or Ape, Works and cc did.

[Ivy]

I can't edit the thread :( I'm thinking the permissions are wonky in this subforum but I have to go pick up my son at preschool and I can't check them now.

[LongSilence]

I don't really have an objection to that. I don't know that it will change gameplay since nobody will believe you if you say you've been cleared. :lol:

Ah, so it doesn't open up the possibility of a Detective deliberately investigating someone he thinks is the Vigilante just so he can tell him who he knows is Mafia.

In this form it might help Townies work out who the Detective is by looking at who has been openly suspicious of them on the board after they've been investigated. Though if they do work that out it'll only help them not vote for the Detective later...

[syzygy]

I can't edit the thread :( I'm thinking the permissions are wonky in this subforum but I have to go pick up my son at preschool and I can't check them now.

I think they are too.

[Oso Mocoso]

I'll be Narrator for 3.1 if it kicks off. So Syzygy can play. I've determined that I'm a crappy Mafia player with no hope at longevity whatsoever.

Sign up people. Apethedog is banned from play for cheating which lead to overall collapse in two out of three of the incarnations of this game.

(unless he negotiates like hell to be reinstated)

[syzygy]

I'm playing! :grin:

[cripple]

The Mafia told me to kill aelan, or Ape, Works and cc did.
Oki, that explains it.

[LongSilence]

Hmm I think I take this back - first the people who played the botched game should decide if they still want to play, then I'll sign up if there are any free spots, probably won't be. :) Doesn't matter anyway, I'll have little time.

There already are free spots. A few have already said they don't wanna play again.

And as for botching... haven't they all been a bit flawed in their own way? It's just this time the Mafia were the ones to screw up and then flake out. heh

[Madrigal]

Why not have a game where there are no rules, rather than a whole bunch of them that are impossible to enforce?

Might be a little easier, you know. Just make it so nobody has the possibility to PROVE to the other people what their role is and all this nonsense can be remedied easily.

PS: I don't care to defend myself because THIS IS JUST A GAME. But it's impossible not to lie if you are mafia, and it's impossible not to cheat if not doing so means you have to tell people you are.

Nope - we have to do what I said a long time ago. Anyone trying to make someone cheat gets automatically killed himself, they go down together.

And if you get a PM from a player, and you bring up the issue to the narrator, then you're dead too.

How to avoid the trap? Don't send PMs, don't answer them.

You can't stop people from communicating offline, but you can stop them from blackmailing each other.

In other words, anyone going to the narrator pointing fingers gets killed automatically.

[carbon cold]

So..

Is everyone okay if I play, or what? :/

[Anonymous]

I'll be Narrator for 3.1 if it kicks off. So Syzygy can play. I've determined that I'm a crappy Mafia player with no hope at longevity whatsoever.

I thought you were a good player. I suspected you at first, but then like Ivy said, you would have had to have been the greatest Mafia player ever to have everything you did as a deception, so I figured you for innocent. And the mafia even said that they weren't going to kill you just yet.

[Madrigal]

There already are free spots. A few have already said they don't wanna play again.

And as for botching... haven't they all been a bit flawed in their own way? It's just this time the Mafia were the ones to screw up and then flake out. heh

No, when I was in the Mafia the game went perfectly. Even too perfectly. ;P

That was the old mafia from the good old days.

[aelan]

Not playing again. Madi, you can have my slot.

Anon, you didn't waste a cover, it was a good save. I owe you a kiss for that. :)

Public voting - in the real life game, everyone gets to see who each other votes for. To put it silent allows too much room for mafia, who already have a strong advantage.

Detective should be able to tell. Otherwise I don't really see the point of the detective. *imagines townies running around with "detective-approved" stamps.*

[Madrigal]

Not playing again. Madi, you can have my slot.


I think 17 people just got a bad deal. ;)

I wish you would play. I'd love to have the honor of playing mafia with you again. :)

[ApeTheDog]

I'll be Narrator for 3.1 if it kicks off. So Syzygy can play. I've determined that I'm a crappy Mafia player with no hope at longevity whatsoever.

Sign up people. Apethedog is banned from play for cheating which lead to overall collapse in two out of three of the incarnations of this game.

(unless he negotiates like hell to be reinstated)

Negotiation: I didn't cheat, you motherfucker.

And I'd like to narrate a game myself. Not much fun in me playing again but I'd happily come up with a bunch of new rules for it which I think are workeable.

[Madrigal]

Negotiation: I didn't cheat, you motherfucker.

And I'd like to narrate a game myself. Not much fun in me playing again but I'd happily come up with a bunch of new rules for it which I think are workeable.

Aaaaape, if you PMed a townie then that is against the rules, why are you pissed?

[ApeTheDog]

It's perfectly alright to PM people as long as you don't reveal information.

I'm not pissed. There are other things I could say, but i'm mostly annoyed because this whole game is ridiculous as it is. To mention them would only cause the bickering to continue.

My whole idea of this game is: don't have rules to stop unfairness. Make it so unfairness is impossible. I would send people two PM's - one going "you are townie", the other going "you are mafia". Then tell them in a rep comment which of the two was correct.

No cheating by forwarding the PM. Everybody has two. Rep comments can't be forwarded. Screen shots can be taken. But anyway... something can be found for that as well, I believe.

That's the only way to keep things fun.

All of the spontaneity is being dragged out of the game. Why else play? I don't care for the rules. They suck. I care to have fun playing. This whole bitching session that is going on now...

Enjoy it. I'll play or moderate the fourth one if I feel like it, and it looks like fun. I'll not argue about the third one anymore because I don't feel like it and it isn't fun.

Ps: I employ the word "motherfucker" because that is just about the extend of arguing and negotiating I wish to do. It is merely a stylistic thing. I don't have a problem with Oso. He's a cool guy.

[avolkiteshvara]

This game doesn't work well for a bunch of INTPs in this format. There are just too many loose ends. And we'll find them all. It needs to be in a more structured platform. I don't know what that would be though.




It would work in an SJ forum.

[LongSilence]

It's perfectly alright to PM people as long as you don't reveal information.



But if you PM someone in order to draw out information... any reply they make that reveals info IS cheating??

Aren't PMs outlawed specifically so you don't get loads of people saying stuff like "I'm a townie / Detective / Vigilante, let's collaborate..."?

It makes it so that the Townies AND the Mafia have to actually talk in the discussion thread rather than having their dealings being conducted in the shadows. Allowing Townies to privately talk encourages EVERYONE to talk privately about who has said this to them, and who's done that on the sides. Makes it all very complicated.

[MoneyJungle]

I'll be happy to contribute a deathnote or two, but my heart woudn't be in another game.

[LastRailway]

An (uninformed - I just logged in and didn't read much of what's going on) opinion:
It's just a game. The aim is to have some fun. Maybe we shouldn't take it that seriously...

[Works]

Fuck no. Ironic considering I was one of the first ones to mention starting the game in the first place.

But I'll watch.

[Ivy]

I managed to edit the poll to better reflect the options (the moderator telling townies when they've been cleared by the detective, not the detective telling them him or herself).

[LastRailway]

I'm in for a Mafia game, as long as it is not during next week.

And, after thinking a bit on the matter, I think I'd be for voting to be totally private - as in, you post only how many players voted each person, not who they were.

[Madrigal]

I'm in for a Mafia game, as long as it is not during next week.

And, after thinking a bit on the matter, I think I'd be for voting to be totally private - as in, you post only how many players voted each person, not who they were.

You want to boycott block-voting again!

Why oh why??!! :blink:

I'm totally against this. Unless I'm Mafia again.



edit: I'm not sure I'll play 3.1 yet, really might not have the time as I start a new job next week.

[LastRailway]

You want to boycott block-voting again!

Why oh why??!! :blink:

I'm totally against this. Unless I'm Mafia again.

LOL, face it, I'm anti-blockvoting and anti-everything group related.

But you people feel free to blockvote, by all means :P

Another change I propose, is two more roles:
THE SPY: A Mafia that works for the townies.
THE TRAITOR: A townie that works for the Mafia.

[Eye-In-TiPi]

I'll give it another go. I don't have any problem at all with any of the "cheaters" playing in this one. I doubt any of them will try it again, but even if they do, it's only a game. I actually found all the chaos very entertaining.

[syzygy]

Madrigal, I'm also anti-blockvoting! :banana:

[Madrigal]

LOL, face it, I'm anti-blockvoting and anti-everything group related.


Yes, but you want to enforce a voting mechanism that deprives many people of the tool they find most valuable in weeding out mafia. They should have the freedom to sway the discussion to block voting if they want to. I also don't get why some people still don't get this simple logic after three games. BAJ, Oso and aelan explained it thoroughly, among others. :huh:

I'm dead against totally private votes.

[Madrigal]

Madrigal, I'm also anti-blockvoting! :banana:

I know.... :thelook:

[djm]

Madrigal, I'm also anti-blockvoting! :banana:

And me.

[ApeTheDog]

But if you PM someone in order to draw out information... any reply they make that reveals info IS cheating??

Aren't PMs outlawed specifically so you don't get loads of people saying stuff like "I'm a townie / Detective / Vigilante, let's collaborate..."?

It makes it so that the Townies AND the Mafia have to actually talk in the discussion thread rather than having their dealings being conducted in the shadows. Allowing Townies to privately talk encourages EVERYONE to talk privately about who has said this to them, and who's done that on the sides. Makes it all very complicated.

Sort of how it would be in a real situation where there were mafiosi and townies living together, wouldn't it? You'll have infiltrators, you'll have spies, you'll have lies... The only thing you have to avoid is for everybody to have an ID card that says "I am townie" or "I am mafia".

It'd make for the best game.

As it is now, with all communication going on in the threads, it's an exercise in reading back through what has been said and making a spreadsheet. I had no trouble convincing people I was townie just by keeping notes of who had said suspicious things and pointing those out.

I got killed because I couldn't keep my act together as well in talks/PM's.

The latter is infinately more enjoyable, even if it means I lost.

[LastRailway]

I also don't get why some people still don't get this simple logic after three games. BAJ, Oso and aelan explained it thoroughly, among others. :huh:

I'm dead against totally private votes.

Because, as I've said numerous times already, I don't really care who wins. There are mechanisms to ensure that the one part or the other will win - and blockvoting is one of them- but the game would be dull, IMO, using them.

Not knowing who to trust and have as only clues what each one is publicly saying, makes the game harder for townies, but much more fun.
People will be forced to make good arguments and to be really very careful on who to trust - so the whole discussions will be, I think, much more interesting. It's a game of deceit and persuasion, after all.

Anyhow, I'm playing anyway*. I simply don't intend to vote against anyone if it doesn't make sense to me. I won't be voting only to align my vote.

*EDIT: But not during next week.

[syzygy]

Because, as I've said numerous times already, I don't really care who wins. There are mechanisms to ensure that the one part or the other will win - and blockvoting is one of them- but the game would be dull, IMO, using them.

Not knowing who to trust and have as only clues what each one is publicly saying, makes the game harder for townies, but much more fun.
People will be forced to make good arguments and to be really very careful on who to trust - so the whole discussions will be, I think, much more interesting. It's a game of deceit and persuasion, after all.

Anyhow, I'm playing anyway. I simply don't intend to vote against anyone if it doesn't make sense to me. I won't be voting only to align my vote.

What LR said.

[Awn]

I think I'm going to be an avid spectator this time around.

[djm]

I really don't see the 'cheating' as a big deal either to be honest. It's how real mafia would be isn't it, I mean you can hardly ask someone to play the part of a gangster and then also be a law abiding rule follower.

[cripple]

I'll give it another go. I don't have any problem at all with any of the "cheaters" playing in this one. I doubt any of them will try it again, but even if they do, it's only a game. I actually found all the chaos very entertaining.
That is good. I was thinking that Ape was being set up. So I proposed to turn the chat in so that we could kill aelan that way, since ape probably was set up by the 'cheating' townies. I was actually quite angry at you guys at one point. But was told that it was bad to turn people in. And agreed to this after thinking about it, and tried to figure out how we could use this to our advantage instead. Not that anyone listened to me though.

But basically I had hoped we finished the last game. The surviving Mafia was finally at good spirit at the end. I'm not sure who the narrators blame though. If we should have known better. Or if there was more happening behind the scenes.

But I don't feel bad about it, and think we did the best out of the situation, trying to finish the game and not turning people in. For me it was just two people that got a little bit to carried away, and had to pay the ultimate price, by hanging in the gallows.

Well, I enjoyed it, although the paranoia was at times a bit to much at times.

I can give it another go as well, if noone have any problem with the last game's mafioso. If someone have, it is better to stay away I think. But I'm still not all that happy with not having finished the last game, hanged or otherwise.

[md5fungi]

I'll give it another go. I don't have any problem at all with any of the "cheaters" playing in this one. I doubt any of them will try it again, but even if they do, it's only a game. I actually found all the chaos very entertaining.

Ditto with everything he said.

Count me in.

[Oso Mocoso]

But basically I had hoped we finished the last game. The surviving Mafia was finally at good spirit at the end. I'm not sure who the narrators blame though. If we should have known better. Or if there was more happening behind the scenes.

I'd actually thought we could continue the last game, but I wasn't Narrating. And I was convinced that I was going to get killed, although that turned out to be not the case if Anonymous is to be believed.

[syzygy]

- I don't think anyone else was cheating.
- I don't blame anyone at all.
- Lots of people PM'd me and said a restart would be a good idea. Most people who were playing also said they'd prefer a restart.
- I'm sorry - I don't think I handled this well at all.

[djm]

Not playing again. Madi, you can have my slot.

I think most of us would rather you played.


I think 17 people just got a bad deal. ;)

I wish you would play. I'd love to have the honor of playing mafia with you again. :)

Snap


Another change I propose, is two more roles:
THE SPY: A Mafia that works for the townies.
THE TRAITOR: A townie that works for the Mafia.

Good idea


- I'm sorry - I don't think I handled this well at all.

Rubbish, you did a great job.

[cripple]

I'd actually thought we could continue the last game, but I wasn't Narrating. And I was convinced that I was going to get killed, although that turned out to be not the case if Anonymous is to be believed.
Thats not all true, the survivors where screaming for your death when you took out Works and ES. That was intense. :ph34r: You did to good job, as there was just Trinity and me left there to decide in the end. First then you got off the hook.

[md5fungi]

I'm sorry - I don't think I handled this well at all.

Naw syz, you were a sweet narrator, and most of the fucked-upness had nothing to do with you. :highfive:

Killing Aelan and Ape, for the record, was the right move, because those rules were clearly stated. (Though I don't hold anything against either of them; there's a reason people don't play Monopoly with me and my INTJ compatriot anymore :grin: )

[MoneyJungle]

Everytime I try to get out, they keep pulling me back in (they being my desperate loneliness and hunger for deception). I changed my mind. Count me in.

[syzygy]

Rubbish, you did a great job.


Naw syz, you were a sweet narrator, and most of the fucked-upness had nothing to do with you. :highfive:

Killing Aelan and Ape, for the record, was the right move, because those rules were clearly stated. (Though I don't hold anything against either of them; there's a reason people don't play Monopoly with me and my INTJ compatriot anymore :grin: )

Thank you very much (and the people who repped me, too!)

[Works]

Thank you very much (and the people who repped me, too!)

Yeah, I thought you did well as the narrator. I wouldn't mind writing death notes. I think I'll stick to that.

[nonperson]

I wouldn't mind writing death notes.

I bet your students love fear their report cards.........

[puzzled-observer]

Can someone please explain to me what the supposed "cheating" actually was?

Why on earth should the narrator be responsible for saying that townies have been cleared? The narrator shouldn't be giving anyone any information that isn't strictly RULE related.

[ApeTheDog]

The cheating was having conversations away from the forum about the game. I engaged in them, so did aelan. I know of two others who also did so.

[alienhated]

can I know what the fuck are you talking about? xD

[mgb]

If we restart, I'm in.

I'd just as soon finish this game though. Unless I get killed off by the mafia, then I'm all for restarting immediately after that happens.

I was going to say this somewhere, but I think aelan and ApeTheDog should have to sit the next game or two out. If the game is called because they were cheating, that's not really fair to everyone else.

[ApeTheDog]

can I know what the fuck are you talking about? xD

Yes. Stop being a n00b?

[2ds]

I disagree with the idea of the detective clearing people, the whole idea of the detective is to have to balance the information you can give out without revealing you're the detective to the mafia.

I'm in for 3.1 and i vote that 4 be run by ape to see what he can do with the rules...

[alienhated]

i am noob... so tell me... :s

[syzygy]

i am noob... so tell me... :s

a lot of subforums have stickied threads which explain things. go look for the one in this forum. it shouldn't be hard because sticky threads are usually stuck to the top of the subforum.

[Senka]

i am noob... so tell me... :s

Read this (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=34196)

Your welcome :)

[Etherealsage]

I'd just as soon finish this game though. Unless I get killed off by the mafia, then I'm all for restarting immediately after that happens.
I had been pushing for it before I left, but it wasn't going to happen (at least right away).

[Senka]

I had been pushing for it before I left, but it wasn't going to happen (at least right away).

Personally I think that bites, actually I think a hell of a lot more than that but it would be uncivil to say so.

There were mafia members who were playing the game above board and not getting involved with all the dramas that have been created. I did not trust my fellow mafia members during the game with the exception of Cripple at the end as it was clear people were talking to syzy behind our backs, turns out it wasn’t just you though. I probably can’t play again as no one will trust me, if I had known my fellow mafia members were pushing to have the game stopped I could have tried to back off and have a chance at playing a game that wasn't destroyed by lameness.

If someone wants to leave the game, fine, do it but don’t try to ruin it for anyone else. For the way he exited (based on what I know) Ape has my respect, I can also respect the reasons CC and Works left but not they way they did. The way you played gets none.

[syzygy]

people were talking to syzy behind our backs

Talking about what?


I probably can’t play again as no one will trust me

I really don't think that's true at all. You weren't cheating.


if I had known my fellow mafia members were pushing to have the game stopped

:confused: They weren't trying to get the game stopped, AFAIK.

[aelan]

I was intending to keep quiet and let things blow over until two persons whose trust I value here called me a cheat.

To make things clear:

1. During the signup phase of the game, I just PMed Ape, along with some others I chat with regularly (like bluebell), that I'd be playing in the mafia game, as a way of explaining that I'd not be in touch as regularly going forward due to the game.

2. Before the game began proper, ape responded to my generic PM with a random comment that "great, now i have to wonder if you're townie or mafia", and later on IM, we joked about the game, and what roles could we possibly have. At no time did we confirm nor deny to each other what we were. We could not have as I did not get a confirmed role till Round Zero began.

3. Then the game began, and we were not in touch at all.

4. Then I got a msg from Narrator that I had cheated. I said I had not, as I didn't think 1 + 2 broke any rules given a) there was no exchange of real information, b) it had happened before the game began and roles were not even confirmed, and c) was a whole bunch of suppositions. But I wasn't believed. She said she had it from a reliable source that I had.

5. So I said ok, suicide us then. I wasn't interested to carry on after being accused of cheating.

6. It was only then that I shot an email to Ape asking why was it I was being accused of cheating, along with who I suspected was detective. I had no real proof, but it appears my guess was correct. This was only after I had suicided us.

7. Then I told the Narrator that I had sent my guess of detective to Ape, and also suggested for a game reset then, since the "info" would've reached the rest. At that time, the response I got was along the lines that a reassignment of detective would keep the game fair, as long as Ape and I were out.

8. So I wrote my death note.

It just feels like a lynch mob for real now, but I do not really care about the rest of you, except that two people believe me here.

mgb, you don't have to worry about me sitting out a round or two, I'm staying out of future games since no one will believe I didn't cheat anyway, and I think Narrators can never be impartial.

Edit: And to the player who really did PM me - I should have turned you in. I'm sorry but I've lost respect for you after seeing how I told you what happened and you're carrying on this facade. I'm being blamed for spoiling the fun, being a cheat etc, when ironically, I was really just playing for fun until there was so much interference in how I wanted to play.

[Senka]

Talking about what?

About leaving, about turning in the ape/aelan, about the first kill, about trying to end the game. Eth told us after the fact about some conversation/s he'd had in regards to you about Ape, he should have told us up front.


I really don't think that's true at all. You weren't cheating.

Sure, but what I say won't be so easily trusted. I had people convinced I was a townie, prolly not gonna happen again :grin:


:confused: They weren't trying to get the game stopped, AFAIK.

But he just said he was? Maybe it wasn't by PM? Iunno.

Btw, like others have said, I think you did a fine job, I have no complaints there.

EDIT: Also I have no real problem with what aelan and Ape did, the messages I saw were pretty weak. It just should have ended when they left the game.

[Works]

Personally I think that bites, actually I think a hell of a lot more than that but it would be uncivil to say so.

There were mafia members who were playing the game above board and not getting involved with all the dramas that have been created. I did not trust my fellow mafia members during the game with the exception of Cripple at the end as it was clear people were talking to syzy behind our backs, turns out it wasn’t just you though. I probably can’t play again as no one will trust me, if I had known my fellow mafia members were pushing to have the game stopped I could have tried to back off and have a chance at playing a game that wasn't destroyed by lameness.

If someone wants to leave the game, fine, do it but don’t try to ruin it for anyone else. For the way he exited (based on what I know) Ape has my respect, I can also respect the reasons CC and Works left but not they way they did. The way you played gets none.

I didn't push to have the game stopped. I didn't ask Syz to stop the game. I told her I wanted to quit though, which she tried to talk me out of. I didn't try to out the other mafia members or manipulate the game play after I cast the vote for myself. Eventually I got tired of things and just ensured my death by saying I was Mafia.

[Etherealsage]

There were mafia members who were playing the game above board and not getting involved with all the dramas that have been created. I did not trust my fellow mafia members during the game with the exception of Cripple at the end as it was clear people were talking to syzy behind our backs, turns out it wasn’t just you though. I probably can’t play again as no one will trust me, if I had known my fellow mafia members were pushing to have the game stopped I could have tried to back off and have a chance at playing a game that wasn't destroyed by lameness.
Mostly, zygy and I were talking about the game in abstract, not about mafia/townies roles in it. I'm not giving details without her permission, as that's against the board rules, but we didn't talk about anything that would affect gameplay. The issue of cheating came up later, and I simply confirmed what she already knew. Kinda obvious that she knew it was taking place, I wasn't going to lie to her over a game, particularly since she cared about how well the game turned out. I didn't even do it behind your backs, I told you guys when it happened right on the board. Edit: And I obviously didn't push to have the game stopped. When I got irritated, I quit, except I couldn't be lynched, so suicide.

[Senka]

I didn't push to have the game stopped. I didn't ask Syz to stop the game. I told her I wanted to quit though, which she tried to talk me out of. I didn't try to out the other mafia members or manipulate the game play after I cast the vote for myself. Eventually I got tired of things and just ensured my death by saying I was Mafia.

Yeah, I was prolly harsh when I said I didn't respect the way you left, I don't actually have a problem with what you did, you tried to keep it in game and like I said I respected your reasons. I don't really have an issue with how CC left either, just would have been nice to get a heads up so we could work it into our game plan.

I'm mostly pissed that Eth said he tried to stop the game before he left.

[syzygy]

I can confirm what both ES and Works said. I wasn't talking to anyone about gameplay, really. ES, you can reveal the contents of the PMs if you want to, it's not like they were all that exciting.

[Works]

I don't really have an issue with how CC left either, just would have been nice to get a heads up so we could work it into our game plan.



I was trying not to affect game play by using it as a calculated move.

[Senka]

Edit: And I obviously didn't push to have the game stopped. When I got irritated, I quit, except I couldn't be lynched, so suicide.

Well then, this comment baffles me :huh: what did you mean?



I'd just as soon finish this game though. Unless I get killed off by the mafia, then I'm all for restarting immediately after that happens.I had been pushing for it before I left, but it wasn't going to happen (at least right away).

[syzygy]

Well then, this comment baffles me :huh: what did you mean?

He meant he'd been pushing to kill mgb. That's the way I read it. It made me smirk.

[Etherealsage]

Well then, this comment baffles me :huh: what did you mean?
To have mgb killed. xD

[Senka]

To have mgb killed. xD

Heee! Good, would have happened soon enough :grin: although I did really love it when he said he would follow my lead.

Sorry. Foot meet mouth, mouth meet foot.

[mgb]

Heee! Good, would have happened soon enough :grin: although I did really love it when he said he would follow my lead.

Sorry. Foot meet mouth, mouth meet foot.

I hate you.

Just kidding. You did have me fooled but I really enjoyed having you in the game. Although, either by fluke or reason, I was doing pretty well, so I'm happy about that.


mgb, you don't have to worry about me sitting out a round or two, I'm staying out of future games since no one will believe I didn't cheat anyway, and I think Narrators can never be impartial.

Who the fuck are you trying to kid? The rule was no PMing about the game. By participating in that you broke the rules. You had a choice not to participate in the conversation, you chose to participate in it. You had a choice to say no. Don't try and act like a martyr, blame your cheating on anyone else, or take a shot at syzygy for not being "impartial". That's horseshit.

[syzygy]

I'm actually much too Mafia'd out to play, I'm realising now.

[ApeTheDog]

I hate you.

Just kidding. You did have me fooled but I really enjoyed having you in the game. Although, either by fluke or reason, I was doing pretty well, so I'm happy about that.

Fluke


Who the fuck are you trying to kid? The rule was no PMing about the game. By participating in that you broke the rules. You had a choice not to participate in the conversation, you chose to participate in it. You had a choice to say no. Don't try and act like a martyr, blame your cheating on anyone else, or take a shot at syzygy for not being "impartial". That's horseshit.

The rule was: PM'ing about the game is dangerous, as the person you're PM'ing with has the *option* of turning you in. It's not cheating, it's just dangerous. It's a viable tactic.

[ApeTheDog]

Now can everybody please stop whining?

[mgb]

Fluke

Whatever.




The rule was: PM'ing about the game is dangerous, as the person you're PM'ing with has the *option* of turning you in. It's not cheating, it's just dangerous. It's a viable tactic.

You have the *option* because it was deemed to be cheating before the game started. Whether it was stated to be the option explicitly or not it doesn't change the fact that within the parameters of this game it was considered cheating. As soon as a player participated in that act they were in violation of the rules of the game. As far as I'm concerned, you both got what you deserved. What the rest of us didn't deserve was having the game ending prematurely because you both took it upon yourselves to ruin it for the rest of us.

[ApeTheDog]

You have the *option* because it was deemed to be cheating before the game started. Whether it was stated to be the option explicitly or not it doesn't change the fact that within the parameters of this game it was considered cheating. As soon as a player participated in that act they were in violation of the rules of the game. As far as I'm concerned, you both got what you deserved. What the rest of us didn't deserve was having the game ending prematurely because you both took it upon yourselves to ruin it for the rest of us.

I don't agree with the part where you consider PM'ing without turning the other person in cheating, but there's no need to turn this into a circular argument. I prefer the version of the rules that keeps the game unpredictable and fun.

I'd not have ended the game either, but a whole bunch of other mafia quit... it's not really possible to keep playing without them. It'd be unfair, and impossible, to force people to keep playing against their will.

Now let's all stop whining!

[Oso Mocoso]

The rule was: PM'ing about the game is dangerous, as the person you're PM'ing with has the *option* of turning you in. It's not cheating, it's just dangerous. It's a viable tactic.

Actually, the Syzygy Rules and the Oso Rules were different. You're talking about the Oso Rules. In Syzygy's take on the game, she was less tolerant of PMing than I was.

[ApeTheDog]

Actually, the Syzygy Rules and the Oso Rules were different. You're talking about the Oso Rules. In Syzygy's take on the game, she was less tolerant of PMing than I was.

Cool. Only glanced through the rules, I don't know if there was a visible difference there for me to read, but I really am beyond giving a shit at this point.

=====

I'm going to enforce what I said would be the best thing that can be done here, and not make a single post on this entire forum anymore - as it's the only way I believe this madness will end.

Now is everybodies chance to talk badly about me, or blame things on me, or whatever. Go wild, peoples!

[Madrigal]

I was intending to keep quiet and let things blow over until two persons whose trust I value here called me a cheat.

To make things clear:

1. During the signup phase of the game, I just PMed Ape, along with some others I chat with regularly (like bluebell), that I'd be playing in the mafia game, as a way of explaining that I'd not be in touch as regularly going forward due to the game.

2. Before the game began proper, ape responded to my generic PM with a random comment that "great, now i have to wonder if you're townie or mafia", and later on IM, we joked about the game, and what roles could we possibly have. At no time did we confirm nor deny to each other what we were. We could not have as I did not get a confirmed role till Round Zero began.

3. Then the game began, and we were not in touch at all.

4. Then I got a msg from Narrator that I had cheated. I said I had not, as I didn't think 1 + 2 broke any rules given a) there was no exchange of real information, b) it had happened before the game began and roles were not even confirmed, and c) was a whole bunch of suppositions. But I wasn't believed. She said she had it from a reliable source that I had.

5. So I said ok, suicide us then. I wasn't interested to carry on after being accused of cheating.

6. It was only then that I shot an email to Ape asking why was it I was being accused of cheating, along with who I suspected was detective. I had no real proof, but it appears my guess was correct. This was only after I had suicided us.

7. Then I told the Narrator that I had sent my guess of detective to Ape, and also suggested for a game reset then, since the "info" would've reached the rest. At that time, the response I got was along the lines that a reassignment of detective would keep the game fair, as long as Ape and I were out.

8. So I wrote my death note.

It just feels like a lynch mob for real now, but I do not really care about the rest of you, except that two people believe me here.

mgb, you don't have to worry about me sitting out a round or two, I'm staying out of future games since no one will believe I didn't cheat anyway, and I think Narrators can never be impartial.

Edit: And to the player who really did PM me - I should have turned you in. I'm sorry but I've lost respect for you after seeing how I told you what happened and you're carrying on this facade. I'm being blamed for spoiling the fun, being a cheat etc, when ironically, I was really just playing for fun until there was so much interference in how I wanted to play.

I don't think you cheated.

Now correct me if I'm mistaken...

Basically you are saying you only spilled all your info to Ape after it was decided you and Ape were to be killed (I would still like to know from syz what evidence there was, if that isn't too much to ask, because you don't know it yourself as it was never revealed to you - also I think this kind of evidence should have been revealed to you so that you'd have had a chance to contradict it or explain it). So I'm guessing you sent Ape that info out of curiosity, after your deaths, to discuss the game as two outsiders? And if I'm not mistaken, Ape took that post-suicide info and posted it in the secret forum? Did I get this right? :s

Perhaps his posting your crucial info happened after you had agreed to both your suicides, but before the death note was actually posted (and I dunno if it was before or after he himself knew he was dead).

I'm glad you cleared this up because I was under the impression that you had not cheated but that Ape had contacted you just to turn you in, which I didn't like at all as a tactic, on principle. Now I think Ape should not have posted such enlightening info he got from you in the Mafia's secret place, especially not after he was already dead, but that's totally different from what I first thought had gone on (Ape deliberately setting you up - sorry Ape, you always said you liked the enticer role ;P ).

The question of the incriminating evidence remains. :mellow:

[Works]

The question of the incriminating evidence remains. :mellow:

Fuck it. This is what I had to go off of. Ape posted this almost first thing in the mafia forum.



I spent an hour talking to her. I have her believing I'm townie, and I know with 99% certainty she's the detective.

(06:17:25 PM) Aelan: would you ask for ape, or oso, or anyone else first?
(06:17:44 PM) Aelan: if yo uwere me
(06:17:58 PM) Apethedog: Right now, after this talk, i'd ask me
(06:18:08 PM) Apethedog: you know i'm not too worried about cheating
(06:18:16 PM) Apethedog: so if you know for certain i'm townie maybe that can be useful?
(06:18:16 PM) Aelan: why is that?
(06:18:29 PM) Aelan: i need a certain townie.
(06:18:51 PM) Aelan: cannot afford to waste guesses can we?
(06:19:21 PM) Apethedog: well, would you believe me if i said i was townie?
(06:19:36 PM) Aelan: yes.

(so I solidified things without explicitly telling her I'm a townie.)

(06:23:56 PM) Apethedog: Townies have a house
(06:24:01 PM) Apethedog: they clean it
(06:24:08 PM) Apethedog: i am going to clean my house
(06:24:23 PM) Apethedog: i can't be much more explicit than this without breaking the rules
(06:24:35 PM) Apethedog: and it's getting dark here

She bought it, I'm sure.

This is where her suspicions lie:

(06:00:17 PM) Aelan: i run through the list... those i'm wary about.. in terms of intelligence... strategy... or sheer inscrutability
(06:00:40 PM) Aelan: are yourself... oso, autumn, ivy, carbon cold, trinity

She suspects half of us. I believe she would be a great first kill because people won't wonder whe she died - they won't know they're
without a detective yet. It will be hard to kill her because the doctor is very likely to be protecting her on the first turn.

What can we do about this?

Make it so the doctor believes we have his/her identity figured out and tries to protect him/herself?
Use the Don to try and steer the doctor in a certain direction?
See if we can get them to suspect aelan is mafia, so the doctor won't protect her?

Not sure about this.

[Madrigal]

Fuck it. This is what I had to go off of. Ape posted this almost first thing in the mafia forum.
THANK YOU.

This is what aelan says about that particular convo (I think):


Syz, if you recall, the IM chat with Ape was around the time you offered me the role of detective and I was considering it before I turned it down. You later persuaded me to accept it.

The IM with Ape was actually only after I had first turned down the role, and before I accepted it when you offered again. It is why I said that I couldn't have cheated, because I had no role then. Ape would obviously know I was townie since he was mafia. Come on, it was the only reason he'd contact me.

So I figured the mafia would off me in the first round anyway. What I was thinking was simply to get doctor to protect me in the first round, so the mafia would waste a shot, thereby extending the game for townies. That was why I was bimbo-ing it up on the thread and trilling for doctor.

Then Narrator approached me to swop out roles.


I considered that for a bit, then realised it'd be even more fun if I really wasn't the detective because the mafia would then waste a further turn targeting me, without being clear who doctor, detective, and vigilante were.

So I am guessing one thing, on the basis of aelan's defense - anyone please refute or confirm - this convo you posted was aelan pretending to be detective after the role had been declined, and she was trying to get the Mafia to think she was detective so they'd try to kill her first, while she'd have the doc's protection? She knew that her role was not reassigned yet, but she knew Ape was Mafia and was leading him on?

edit: I have no reason to think aelan is lying, or that she is a liar, so I am thinking this is all a huge misunderstanding and I'd like it to be cleared up.

[Works]

Ape also posted on Thursday morning that he had been in contact with Oso and Djm.

See below.

[Oso Mocoso]

Ape also posted on Thursday morning that he had been in contact with Oso and Djm.

Just for the record, I was never actually in contact with Ape.

[Works]

Just for the record, I was never actually in contact with Ape.

Wait, I misread his post. It's kind of confusing.

Here is the full thing that Ape posted on thursday morning.


I made it into the townie secret circle. This is an email I got from aelan:

I got a warning from syzygy that she has heard rumours of me talking on IM about this game. and she believes her source because her source implicated himself too.

Now, the only ones I've spoken to are you, her.

I was talking with djm about other things on gmail. where he mentioned he was townie and he hopes to survive, but is sanguine about his chances.

and this: Oso contacted me saying he had inherited a role from me and checked me out in the first round. which was why he was contacting me to try find out what i think. His reason for it: "It's not cheating if we don't turn each other in. Personally, I think the Detective should be able to fill in the Townies (s)he knows are Innocent."

we've been chatting on spampudding, another forum. =D

so technically.. i guess i'm cheating?

Thing is... do you see a way to win it without some form of inside communication?

The game isn' fair for townies. =_=


laaa.

i don't know to vote for ivy or 2ds.

Folllowed by this post by ape:


DO NOT SHARE THIS. DO NOT INFORM SYZYGY ABOUT THIS.

I don't intend to carry on backstabbing like this anymore either. I feel quite bad about it, even if they're all cheating too.

We can't change our vote to Oso this turn. Syzygy will throw a fit. We figure out the detective before the game gets started - she changes the role to Oso to keep it fair. Then we change our vote to Oso immediately afterwards.

We should make it appear as though we lucked into killing him on our next turn. Give Syzygy as reason that we think he's a dangerous opponent, is organizing people, etc...

by all means never let out that we think he's the detective.

[Madrigal]

The plot thickens! I will be gone all day, gonna get back to this later. Hope it gets clarified soon.

[syzygy]

Also for the record. (I've gone through PM dates and times and IM logs, I can post them if necessary.)

- aelan said she'd think about it, she didn't decline the role. I had to go to class and by the time I got back, she'd left me an IM saying "I'll do it."

- when I mentioned to aelan that she'd been talking on IM with someone, she responded saying "okay suicide us." I said "no, i never said i'd do that" (because nothing seemed to have been compromised.) However, Oso apparently PM'd aelan and aelan then told Ape that Oso was the detective. On getting to know this. I decided to change my mind and suicide them both because it was messing with the game.

The only reason the Mafia didn't kill Oso instead of aelan was that I'd figure out that they cheated.

[cripple]

On getting to know this.

How did you find out in the first place that the townies and mafia was communicating?

Edit:

Just to point out what works posted about what Aelan and Ape wrote later when they where being investigated.

Oso contacted me saying he had inherited a role from me and checked me out in the first round. which was why he was contacting me to try find out what i think.
Certainly the townies wasn't communicating and know each other with your help. This was obviously before any mention about the suicides. Why didnt you just give the role to Oso, why did you tell him it was from Aelan? That is cheating more then aelan and ape did. They didnt know anything for certain, that was just speculations.

[Senka]

I think CC & Eth cleared that up already cripple.

[cripple]

I think CC & Eth cleared that up already cripple.
Uhh-I didnt get that. I know ES was talking to syz, but I was under the impression that was after Ape told us he was being investigated, in an attempt to help him. So that means that CC was the one that turned them in? wow...

[Senka]

I'm not paying too much attention to the after game 'stuff' cause I don't really care so I could be wrong but that's what I believed she said. Think it was in her resignation thread.

[BAJ]

This brings strong memory of when I was a child, and people started to make rules on the sandpile. I lost interest and left the sandbox.

[Epigrammar]

If I may~

[mgb]

I'd not have ended the game either, but a whole bunch of other mafia quit... it's not really possible to keep playing without them. It'd be unfair, and impossible, to force people to keep playing against their will.



By my read from above, they quit because you were cheating and didn't feel the game was worth playing anymore because they'd been given unfair advantage.

These games are interesting. I think they reveal more about us as people than we'd really want them to by virtue of how we play the game.

Given all of the information I've see so far, its seems like both you Ape, and aelan, are both cheaters and liars. Honestly, I don't know which one of you is worse. You used aelan's out of game trust in you to manipulate her into giving you information, which you then posted on your secret subforum for all of the other mafia to see. You violated her trust - for a game. I mean, I've known for a long time what a douche-nozzle you are, but I think this really takes the cake.

And then aelan has the nerve to blame everyone else for getting caught and conncoct a huge story about what a hero she is for taking a mafia down with her because it was her only viable action. In reality, she was also one of the biggest cheats in the game and was just as responsible as you Ape, for wrecking the game for everyone else. Instead of just taking responsibility for what she did she lashes out at you, syzygy, Oso, pretty much anyone that wasn't aelan, which if you ask me, is pretty conniving.

While I realize this is all just a game, I hope the post-discussion has been pretty illuminating for everyone.

Also, from now on, if ApeTheDog or/and aelan are playing, I'm not. They sucked the life out of the game more than a random elimation generator would have. While someone could make the argument that they might have learned their lesson out of this, I'd argue that they've been acting like this since before mafia and will long after we've stopped playing the game. Either way, their inclusion makes it not worth my effort, which might sound lame, but whatever.

[Vagabond]

Dudes. It's a game. You are supposed to lie and bluff in this game. It doesn't make you a stinking liar, it makes you good at the game. In my opinion, Ape and aelan didn't suck the life out of the game, people who turned this into real life and felt offended by the bluffing/lying/cheating did (no offense meant, you might be great people, but you are bad at mafia). Even if you call it cheating, the "punishment" was to be suicided as per the rules, which they both accepted without complaint. You take your risks, you face the consequences, you don't whine about it - you're fine.

Mgb - ape didn't violate aelan's trust for a game, he violated her trust in the game. It not really different than if he had her convinced he was a townie on the public board. He'd still be playing her. Mafia has to do that, though.

Now I'll go back to my observers' thread and shut up. It's upsetting to see so many people get so worked up over a game, though.

[mgb]

Dudes. It's a game. You are supposed to lie and bluff in this game. It doesn't make you a stinking liar, it makes you good at the game. In my opinion, Ape and aelan didn't suck the life out of the game, people who turned this into real life and felt offended by the bluffing/lying/cheating did (no offense meant, you might be great people, but you are bad at mafia). Even if you call it cheating, the "punishment" was to be suicided as per the rules, which they both accepted without complaint. You take your risks, you face the consequences, you don't whine about it - you're fine.

Mgb - ape didn't violate aelan's trust for a game, he violated her trust in the game. It not really different than if he had her convinced he was a townie on the public board. He'd still be playing her. Mafia has to do that, though.

Now I'll go back to my observers' thread and shut up. It's upsetting to see so many people get so worked up over a game, though.

No, I get the lying and bluffing part and I'm ok with that. This was a little more I think.

If the game ended one turn after they were caught because because people that knew the extent of what they'd done didn't want to play anymore - directly because of their actions - then yes, I'd call it sucking the life out of the game.

And they there were complaints. And lies.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1061878&postcount=17
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=1060616&postcount=17

Honestly, I'd have no problem with this if it had just stayed in the game. I was fine with the suiciding and I was excited to keep playing when I was taking everything at face value. Since then, more information has obviously come to light and the extent of the cheating and lying has become pretty egregious, in my opinion and has lasted beyond what it should have.

Look, if you play Monopoly with someone and they steal from the bank every game no matter what you do - are you going to keep playing with them? Even if you just like hanging out with them and don't care about the game at all, by sheer virtue of it being annoying you're probably just going to stop playing with them. It's dumb and makes the game not fun. Which makes hanging out with them not fun, which is where I'm at.

I see what you are saying about what Ape did. But her took their private IMs and emails and posted them in the secret mafia subforum. That goes beyond manipulating her in the game.

All in all, this isn't worth arguing. I made my position known and my participation in future games will be determined by that. I know that's ultra-emotional and really feeler like, but whatever. I'm playing to have fun and to see the games through. Without those things, there isn't much reason for me to play.

[djm]

Ape also posted on Thursday morning that he had been in contact with Oso and Djm.

See below.

Well I certainly had no contact with Ape. I did say to Aelan that I was a townie during a conversation about other things though. I never asked if she was mafia or a townie, and I would have said the same if it was on the board in any case.

She did mention she was being suicided, but did not name Ape and I did not ask. Neither did I tell anyone else on the board or off it.

I think this whole 'Spanish inquisition' has got a little bit out of hand now, personally I think the best thing would be to draw a line under it.

[cripple]

It's upsetting to see so many people get so worked up over a game, though.
That is also an interesting aspect of this post game analyses.


By my read from above, they quit because you were cheating and didn't feel the game was worth playing anymore because they'd been given unfair advantage.

So that is how it is. Great advantage, when they both where found out. And more or less guaranteed to be hanged the next two rounds. But whatever. Besides you are wrong. CC did not cheat at all, since she actually turned the PM in, as it turns out.

[mgb]

So that is how it is. Great advantage, when they both where found out. And more or less guaranteed to be hanged the next two rounds. But whatever. Besides you are wrong. CC did not cheat at all, since she actually turned the PM in, as it turns out.
What?

Whatever. You aren't making sense and I don't care anyways.

I think it'd be best to take a few days to a week off and start a new signup list then.

[Autumn]

Lol, I really didn't expect all that after the game has ended. Now I'm reading back and munch on details censoriously and arrogantly. :popcorn:

One thing is for sure: everyone that did against the rules cheated (including you, aelan). That's plain simple. If one is not to PM about the game and one PMs about the game, that's cheating. No room for excuses. Back to reading...

[md5fungi]

That's plain simple. If one is not to PM about the game and one PMs about the game, that's cheating. No room for excuses. Back to reading...

I'm not sure if it was cheating, or not cheating, the entire story seems to have many skewed versions of the truth (not to mention ambiguity about what the rules said, and what they meant :wtf: ), and I'm not even sure I've actually read the truth yet.

Bottom line is, it's the narrator's call, so once the narrator makes their call, stop bitching. It's just a game.

I know no one here really gives a damn what I say, because I'm a noob, but this is the last thing I'm going to contribute to the drama.

Oso, just get a psuedo-consensus of what the rules are, and start the game.

[syzygy]

Why didnt you just give the role to Oso, why did you tell him it was from Aelan? That is cheating more then aelan and ape did. They didnt know anything for certain, that was just speculations.

Oso checked out aelan for his first turn as detective and knew she was townsfolk. That's when I told him - it's not like I was sharing game information to help the townies. He already knew she was innocent because he chose to use a detective turn on her.

As for speculation vs. certainty, apparently Oso PM'd aelan to tell her he was the detective, because he believes that should be in the rules. I didn't know that, but what I did know was that the Mafia knew who the detective was hours after I'd switched it.

This is the last post I'm making about the matter, too.