THE Marijauna Legalization thread [Archive]

CEOofRawness

22 May 2009, 08:31 PM

Threads about marijuana pop up every now and then, but they all converge into a legalization debate. I came across this article (http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/22/pot-quorum/) today and figured we might as well make an official thread devoted to the topic.

So the obvious question: should we legalize marijuana? Why or why not?

Most of you would assume that I'd say yes, and you're right. I'll get into a detailed argument later.

Few reasons to legalize marijuana (outline):
- No possible overdose, it's non-toxic
- Marijuana prohibition leads to black markets that benefit criminals
- Too much money spent on prohibition
- Potential tax revenue
- Allows open research for medicinal uses
- Relatively non-addictive

Fingers

22 May 2009, 08:42 PM

I foresee a landslide in favour of legalization on the forum.

Cachao

22 May 2009, 08:50 PM

There are definitely a few Js here that will say no. Other than that I think you're mostly right.

CEOofRawness

22 May 2009, 09:13 PM

You'll be surprised. I've seen a few people on here that disagree with legalization. Unfortunately there aren't many, if any, prohibitionists with an evidence-supported, logical argument.

Rhu

22 May 2009, 09:27 PM

I voted yes purely for the sake of efficiency: if I never encounter another article, thread, conversation, tv program, billboard, google maps search result for "emergency room" (http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/doomed.JPG), or song about marijuana legalization, my life would enriched in ways I couldn't possibly dream of.

iksikaksi

22 May 2009, 09:46 PM

I voted yes.
1. Because I enjoy seeing you guys gradually become dumber. Joking.
2. If its legalized the profit made on the substance by the drug dealers etc wont be very large and production could dimminish.
3. Maybe there should be a thread that talks about legalizing other drugs.
4. I am of the point of view that drug abuse is a problem that should be solved from the demand side and not the supply side (inelastic price of the product). Ie improve little kids selfesteem at a collective level so that they resort to other forms of entertainment as they grow up.

The only problem I have with legalization is that people confuse the law with morality( "Its OK its not against the law" douschebags), but then again what do I care what they do with their lives.

MadamI'madaM

22 May 2009, 09:51 PM

This would be great if everyone in this thread so far hadn't already worn it out.

Aeternus

23 May 2009, 12:26 AM

Few reasons to legalize marijuana (outline):
- Marijuana prohibition leads to black markets that benefit criminals
- Too much money spent on prohibition
- Potential tax revenue

These reasons alone are more than enough to legalize marijuana, furthermore, there's another important reason, related with the previous mentioned: there is almost no true difference between social damages caused by alcohol addiction and marijuana addiction, socially speaking there aren't many difference in damages, so it would be stuid to prevent the istitution of a new and potentially strong market only to prevent side effects that are already widely covered by alcoholics.

ciphersort

23 May 2009, 12:52 AM

When the baby boomers finally die off I suspect it will be legalized.

CheeZ

23 May 2009, 01:58 AM

Also:
- Additional source for human/animal feed
- Building/Clothing/Medicine
- Biodiesel/less foreign oil
- Huge spike in snack sales
- yur m0m

http://www.meganpru.com/images/hempfest08_logo1.jpg

tha_badguy

23 May 2009, 02:40 AM

I rather see it decriminalized

if its legalized I see it being manipulated by the tobacco companies in a bad way

When the baby boomers finally die off I suspect it will be legalized.

I suspect the USA would become a better place as a whole.

Baby Boomers don't think for themselves.

They get all their info about everything from the news & their peers who have proven to be just as dumb.

If tomorrow everyone over the age of 50 were to just disappear

A lot of ignorant ways of thinking & being would just disappear with them

Lethal Sage

29 May 2009, 01:25 AM

I just got a recommendation on Tuesday :D

vSv

29 May 2009, 08:36 AM

Simply beacause there are things in this world like Refeer Madness (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6696582420128930236&ei=eZAfSuSgBI-k-AbF2OyGCA&q=refeer+madness), and people that believe those things.

Chaselation

29 May 2009, 08:57 AM

I rather see it decriminalized

if its legalized I see it being manipulated by the tobacco companies in a bad way

Agrees..It's decriminalized here other then the moral victory legality doesn't do much.

I suspect the USA would become a better place as a whole.

Baby Boomers don't think for themselves.

They get all their info about everything from the news & their peers who have proven to be just as dumb.

If tomorrow everyone over the age of 50 were to just disappear

A lot of ignorant ways of thinking & being would just disappear with them

Yes and we are spawning new generations of different ignorant thinking. I don't care to research it but I doubt that demographic is any/much more opposed then younger ones. They just tend to vote more as it was a value back in the day.

80b

31 May 2009, 05:13 PM

I rather see it decriminalized

if its legalized I see it being manipulated by the tobacco companies in a bad way

I would rather see it be totally unregulated. Then you could just grow your own in your backyard... that would make it both cheap and easy to ignore large companies.

Like any choice there are pros and cons, but it should be my choice not yours and not the government's as to what I do to myself. Personally, I don't smoke much of anything anyway, I'm just not a fan of prohibition.

quantumzero

31 May 2009, 07:15 PM

I foresee a landslide in favour of legalization on the forum.

only because we're all a bunch of social misfits, uncomfortable in our own skin.
Just a thought. I cant figure out weather people smoke pot because they dont give a shit or because they give too much of a shit about the wrong things. Anyone else have any thoughts? Forgot?:devil:

CEOofRawness

1 Jun 2009, 05:14 AM

only because we're all a bunch of social misfits, uncomfortable in our own skin.
Just a thought. I cant figure out weather people smoke pot because they dont give a shit or because they give too much of a shit about the wrong things. Anyone else have any thoughts? Forgot?:devil:

We smoke pot because we... what was I saying again?

Seriously though, people commit any act for a number of different reasons. The bottom line is that smoking pot is a victimless act and people are gonna do it regardless of our laws. Might as well be smart about it.

quantumzero

6 Jun 2009, 11:45 PM

We smoke pot because we... what was I saying again?

Seriously though, people commit any act for a number of different reasons. The bottom line is that smoking pot is a victimless act and people are gonna do it regardless of our laws. Might as well be smart about it.

I know, just squeezin yer shooz. Ive been on the "anti" side of this subject for a long time on this forum, couldnt help myself. The truth is, I really would like to see it legalized for medicinal purposes. As far as legalizing it for recreational use, Im liking the arguements Im hearing more and more. As far as how its regulated once it was legalized, I cant imagine anyone complaining. At least no one would go to jail.

Resonance

6 Jun 2009, 11:47 PM

If we de-criminalize hardcore drugs, will that increase the birth rate of crack whores? or lower it?

Riz

7 Jun 2009, 12:35 AM

aphemix

7 Jun 2009, 05:38 AM

I agree with all the reasons proponents of marijuana legalization cite for legalizing marijuana, but the number one reason I would like to see it legalized, personally, is so ALL of these people who are TRIVIAL enough to CARE can SHUT THE FUCK UP. Hoooooly shit. Maybe if we're INCREDIBLY LUCKY, the decriminalization will EVENTUALLY lead to less airhead dickwipes thinking defining themselves and their noble adherence to social progress by their advocacy for a drug that makes you SLOW as FUCK is a cool thing to do. Wow. That's all.

Dustin2009

7 Jun 2009, 05:44 AM

CEOofRawness

7 Jun 2009, 07:26 AM

marijuana should not be taken lightly, I know from my own experience and observations of long time users that it can cause or exagerate serious mental problems. Even more so with todays stronger 'brands'
Not that I am against anyone smoking it but they should be aware of the risks. Treating marijuana as a simple no risk drug is unfair to those who are vunerable to the negative side affects. Sorry to sound so serious.

Show me the facts and I'd agree. Empirical evidence may raise a few questions, but it doesn't prove anything. One thing that you will notice is that a rise in marijuana use has not signaled a rise in cases of mental illnesses. If such a cause-effect relationship existed, you would think that an increase in one would mean an increase in another. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that to be the case.

Resonance

7 Jun 2009, 07:48 AM

Also, marijuana is a main source of income for gangs.
For example, during the prohibition era, the Mafia gained a permanent foothold in the USA because of revenues generated by the (very sucessful) sale of alcohol. Now, alcohol is legal and therefore no longer a viable business option for gangs.
Supply and demand...
There's a lot of riggers in this city, so the main source of income for gangs is actually crack. I think that's the case in a lot of U.S. cities, too. Most people who smoke pot have their own mini-plantation already or know someone who does. It's de-criminalized, so you get like a $50 fine if the police catch you with more than 7 grams or something, but nothing on your record.

But all the anti-government sentiment surrounding the movement leads me to believe that taxes and controls on marijuana sales won't produce as much income as people might predict.

Limey

7 Jun 2009, 07:50 AM

There are definitely a few Js here that will say no. Other than that I think you're mostly right.

Not it!

CEOofRawness

7 Jun 2009, 08:23 AM

There's a lot of riggers in this city, so the main source of income for gangs is actually crack. I think that's the case in a lot of U.S. cities, too. Most people who smoke pot have their own mini-plantation already or know someone who does. It's de-criminalized, so you get like a $50 fine if the police catch you with more than 7 grams or something, but nothing on your record.

But all the anti-government sentiment surrounding the movement leads me to believe that taxes and controls on marijuana sales won't produce as much income as people might predict.

There are approximately 1.4 million (http://www.nida.nih.gov/pdf/infofacts/Cocaine07.pdf) crack users in the US, and about 14 million (http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/drugfact/marijuana/marijuana_ff.html) marijuana users. All-in-all, marijuana is a much more used illegal substance (10x larger market than crack) and thus a much larger source of income for criminals.

Oh yea, not to mention no human being has ever overdosed on marijuana, and it does not cause physical dependence*.

* It may cause mental addiction, but mental addiction is another subject altogether. Anything can become an addiction, from sex to chocolate.

Resonance

7 Jun 2009, 08:39 AM

There are approximately 1.4 million (http://www.nida.nih.gov/pdf/infofacts/Cocaine07.pdf) crack users in the US, and about 14 million (http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/drugfact/marijuana/marijuana_ff.html) marijuana users. All-in-all, marijuana is a much more used illegal substance (10x larger market than crack) and thus a much larger source of income for criminals.

Oh yea, not to mention no human being has ever overdosed on marijuana, and it does not cause physical dependence*.

* It may cause mental addiction, but mental addiction is another subject altogether. Anything can become an addiction, from sex to chocolate.
What is the profit margin on a crack rock vs a reefer? Also, the addictive properties of crack mean it would tend to be used more often, would it not?

Your 14 million figure specifies people who reported using marijuana in the past month, whereas 1.4 million reported using crack in the past year. Just over 2/3 of a million reported current use of crack; no such figure is accessible or possibly even required for marijuana.

And, as I said before, many people have their own plantations for marijuana, here at least. Crack is a little tougher to grow in your basement (although, once you get the raw ingredients you certainly can cook it in your kitchen.) I met one marijuana grower and he is just about the most passive, friendly guy ever - definitely not a gangster, and he only sells to friends and friends of friends.

jyng1

7 Jun 2009, 09:48 AM

Most people who smoke pot have their own mini-plantation already or know someone who does. It's de-criminalized, so you get like a $50 fine if the police catch you with more than 7 grams or something, but nothing on your record.

That's interesting. A guy here has just been banned from entering the US for having a minor conviction 20 years ago for marijuana possession. If he was in Canada now he wouldn't get a conviction, even though its still illegal in the US and could just pop across the border whenever he chose...

P (pure methamphetamine) is the big concern here at the moment. Marijuana has dropped right off the radar. Lots of people being attacked with medieval weapons which is altogether more unsociable than someone with the munchies who can't remember what he was doing that morning.

Cupid stunt

7 Jun 2009, 10:30 AM

CEOofRawness

7 Jun 2009, 05:33 PM

I have smoked it since about 13 and I don't know if it was due to this that I developed some kind of minor tourettes but I do know that I've had to quit smoking it because it makes it much worse. Still I'm completely pro-legalization but just wanted to say that.

I wouldn't advise anyone with any mental condition to use any drug without medical supervision, even marijuana. While it might worsen a mental illness, there is no evidence that it actually causes it.

Dustin2009

7 Jun 2009, 06:18 PM

Show me the facts and I'd agree. Empirical evidence may raise a few questions, but it doesn't prove anything. One thing that you will notice is that a rise in marijuana use has not signaled a rise in cases of mental illnesses. If such a cause-effect relationship existed, you would think that an increase in one would mean an increase in another. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that to be the case.

I'm speaking form personal experience .. not proof but proof enough for me. Auditory hallucination, bipolar, anxiety, paranoia and also delusion. I accept that I have sufferd from depression most of my life and that will of course increase the likelihood of any mood altering drug having a negative effect. However in the 1st five or so years of use, no negative effects were noticed but by the end of 10 yrs of heavy use it's fair to say that an almost total breakdown was in effect. Having recognised marijauna to be a major contribution I no longer smoke it and the last 7 yrs have been a vast improvement in all respects.

I am speaking as one with 1st and 2nd hand experience (having met a lot of people whith similar conditions and heavy marijauna users). I really cant ignore the oppotunity to comment on this subject with or without sciences approval. Naturally anyone reading this is free to take into consideration or disgregard completely as they see fit.

CEOofRawness

7 Jun 2009, 06:34 PM

I'm speaking form personal experience .. not proof but proof enough for me. Auditory hallucination, bipolar, anxiety, paranoia and also delusion. I accept that I have sufferd from depression most of my life and that will of course increase the likelihood of any mood altering drug having a negative effect. However in the 1st five or so years of use, no negative effects were noticed but by the end of 10 yrs of heavy use it's fair to say that an almost total breakdown was in effect. Having recognised marijauna to be a major contribution I no longer smoke it and the last 7 yrs have been a vast improvement in all respects.

I am speaking as one with 1st and 2nd hand experience (having met a lot of people whith similar conditions and heavy marijauna users). I really cant ignore the oppotunity to comment on this subject with or without sciences approval. Naturally anyone reading this is free to take into consideration or disgregard completely as they see fit.

I wouldn't completely disregard it. Like I said, it might worsen some illnesses, but i doubt it necessarily causes any. Also, you mentioned it was "10 yrs of heavy use"; 10 years of heavy use of any drug is not something I would recommend. Had it been 10 years of heavy drinking you'd have a whole set of other health problems, but that's still not enough to make alcohol illegal.

Also, there are a minority that respond negatively to marijuana, as the case with any drug (or anything in general). This again doesn't warrant making marijuana illegal, since having a food allergy can pose serious health risks and yet we're not ripping peanuts and milk products off the shelves.

Besides, since when did we start caring about our health? Cigarettes are one of the most addicting and lethal substances on the planet, and we're perfectly content with allowing people to smoke their way into oblivion with a product designed to do nothing short of addicting you and killing you.

Dustin2009

7 Jun 2009, 06:46 PM

CEOofRawness

7 Jun 2009, 07:14 PM

[QUOTE=CEOofRawness;1130990]I wouldn't completely disregard it.

I agree on every point, the only thing I would say is that we are not talking about making it illegal but wether it should be legalized. Generally speaking I doubt it makes much difference either way since it is so readily available. On the other hand it would be heavily taxed and most likely dilluted and under heavy regulation and in the hands of major corporations pushing up the price and putting profits in the hands of already wealthy and corrupt people who of course would make every attempt to monopolize and penalize independant growers/manafacturers(probably).

Not necessarily. Think about how many people drink and yet corporations haven't pushed up the price and whatnot. Besides, the fact that it is easy to grow marijuana ensures that driving the price too high will just push the market underground, so I don't think that they would even be able to push the prices too high. And before anyone suggests that no one would buy marijuana if they can grow it, you gotta consider that most people don't make their own alcohol because of the hassles involved in making it, as well as not making the same quality product as the pros. I'm sure once legalized, people would prefer quality weed over some homegrown garbage.

This is a double-edged sword, though, since taxing it too much would have the same effect.

Anonymous

7 Jun 2009, 07:34 PM

Sure, legalize it, but I still wouldn't do it. It's too mild. If it can't kill you, it's not worth taking.

Dustin2009

7 Jun 2009, 07:43 PM

[QUOTE=Dustin2009;1131000]

Not necessarily.

The price on alcohol and tobacco in uk is continuously going up due to tax increases, especially in the current climate where they are seen as more taxable than more 'user freindly' products, add to that the current sentiment in the UK in which smoking and drinking considered anti-social, with concerns about the amount spent on health care in a country where the NHS is still free. A huge amount of money is being spent to encourage people to quit.

It is probably marijuana would face similar if not more severe criticism from the same 'iwe are only doing it doing it for your own good' section of society and therefore as much sympathy from the taxman.
I remember also a programme on uk tv where they explored the viability of marijuana as a legalised product and rejected as 'too expensive'. Although I don't recall what led them to that conclusion.
Although personally I never liked having to deal with drug dealers in order to get my drugs, I doubt it will ever change.

I like your quote btw

Cupid stunt

7 Jun 2009, 08:23 PM

I wouldn't advise anyone with any mental condition to use any drug without medical supervision, even marijuana. While it might worsen a mental illness, there is no evidence that it actually causes it.

I know, but I do think it can, especially if abused at a young age. Could be wrong but it does cause paranoia which can lead to mental problems so it does make sense. I agree with you on pretty much everything else though, I don't usually argue this side of the coin but I'm just being honest about my experience and the experience of people I know. Too much of any drug is bad for your mental health.

CEOofRawness

7 Jun 2009, 09:07 PM

I know, but I do think it can, especially if abused at a young age... Too much of any drug is bad for your mental health.
There should be a legal age to smoke (18 or 21, take your pick) in order to keep it away from minors, and moderation should be practiced for everything. Like I said, drinking heavily on a consistent will mess you up, but that isn't reason enough to make it illegal. We tried that and it bred the Al Capones of the day. We see the same today with the Mexican drug cartels, who profit mainly from marijuana smuggling.

By the way, there is a government survey they do every now and then regarding high school kids and their drug use. I'd have to look up the data, but they said that kids have an easier time getting marijuana than they do alcohol. The reason is obvious: drug dealers don't ask for ID.

The price on alcohol and tobacco in uk is continuously going up due to tax increases, especially in the current climate where they are seen as more taxable than more 'user freindly' products, add to that the current sentiment in the UK in which smoking and drinking considered anti-social, with concerns about the amount spent on health care in a country where the NHS is still free. A huge amount of money is being spent to encourage people to quit.

The social climate might encourage people to quit, but people are still allowed to smoke tobacco and drink if they choose to. We're not locking them up and ruining their lives because they choose to partake in something that others don't approve of, even if it only harms them.

By the way, there are half as many people who smoke cigarettes today than there were in the 1960's. Millions of Americans voluntarily quit such a highly addictive drug and we didn't have to arrest 20 million people (http://blog.norml.org/2008/11/13/weve-cut-cigarette-smoking-by-half-and-we-didnt-have-to-arrest-20-million-americans-to-do-it/) for it to happen.

I like your quote btw

Thanks. Got it from George Carlin actually.

Dustin2009

7 Jun 2009, 09:36 PM

I can't argue with anything there Raw. Still if we are going to legalise marijuana then I propose we legalise ecstasy and amphetamines too. In fact why not all drugs ? Definatly those two though.

Cupid stunt

7 Jun 2009, 09:59 PM

There should be a legal age to smoke (18 or 21, take your pick) in order to keep it away from minors, and moderation should be practiced for everything. Like I said, drinking heavily on a consistent will mess you up, but that isn't reason enough to make it illegal. We tried that and it bred the Al Capones of the day. We see the same today with the Mexican drug cartels, who profit mainly from marijuana smuggling.

By the way, there is a government survey they do every now and then regarding high school kids and their drug use. I'd have to look up the data, but they said that kids have an easier time getting marijuana than they do alcohol. The reason is obvious: drug dealers don't ask for ID.

I completely agree with you, I'm 100% pro legalization, I'm just stating that I think it can lead to mental problems. I have no proof, it's just my opinion based on personal experience, what other people who use it have said and a bit of logic.

CEOofRawness

8 Jun 2009, 01:15 AM

I can't argue with anything there Raw. Still if we are going to legalise marijuana then I propose we legalise ecstasy and amphetamines too. In fact why not all drugs ? Definatly those two though.

I'm for the legalization of all drugs actually. Live and let live; if someone wants to put something potentially harmful in their body, go for it. Even if everything were legal, only a small portion of the population would touch the stuff. Making it illegal just transfers the profits underground and lines the pockets of criminals. All drugs were legal at some point, and it's not like the entire population became addicts. Everyone prefers their own drug of choice, while others will get high off of whatever they can find. Making drugs illegal will just make them find something else to get high off of.

I completely agree with you, I'm 100% pro legalization, I'm just stating that I think it can lead to mental problems. I have no proof, it's just my opinion based on personal experience, what other people who use it have said and a bit of logic.

There are studies that suggest there might be a link between marijuana use and schizophrenia, but it's a weak link at best. The number of schizo cases hasn't correlated with the increase of marijuana smokers, so they haven't even established a positive correlation between the two. It might make the symptoms worse, or may make the disease more evident in someone that didn't realize they had it, but I doubt that it actually causes it.

If it did cause mental problems, I'd expect it to manifest in only a small % of the smoking population. with over 100 million Americans that have tried it and 14 million current smokers, the % of those that develop schizophrenia is almost nil.

I would like to note that some have adverse reactions to it, just like any other drug. But this is a minority, and they definitely shouldn't consume marijuana any more than someone with a peanut allergy eat peanuts. It still doesn't justify making it illegal for the rest of us.

Dustin2009

8 Jun 2009, 01:30 AM

very well that being the case I would like to change my vote to yes

wivesandknives

8 Jun 2009, 02:13 AM

I'm for the legalization of all drugs actually. Live and let live; if someone wants to put something potentially harmful in their body, go for it. Even if everything were legal, only a small portion of the population would touch the stuff. Making it illegal just transfers the profits underground and lines the pockets of criminals. All drugs were legal at some point, and it's not like the entire population became addicts. Everyone prefers their own drug of choice, while others will get high off of whatever they can find. Making drugs illegal will just make them find something else to get high off of.

The problem with legalization though, is that it does not become a case of live and let live, does it? Alcohol's already legal, and look how much trouble it causes daily, what with accidents, addictions and the long term results of those things.

Also, saying that keeping it illegal creates an underground market for it, is not a good reason for legalization. There will always be those types who capitalise off illegal goods and services. That drugs are illegal now do make them harder to get a hold of than if they were legal, and so if they were legal, you'd be making harmful drugs easily available to a population who had already been taking said drugs even when they were harder to get.

There are studies that suggest there might be a link between marijuana use and schizophrenia, but it's a weak link at best. The number of schizo cases hasn't correlated with the increase of marijuana smokers, so they haven't even established a positive correlation between the two. It might make the symptoms worse, or may make the disease more evident in someone that didn't realize they had it, but I doubt that it actually causes it.

If it did cause mental problems, I'd expect it to manifest in only a small % of the smoking population. with over 100 million Americans that have tried it and 14 million current smokers, the % of those that develop schizophrenia is almost nil.

You're right in saying the findings of most studies are weak. But consider this: how are they really supposed to study the effects of long term marijuana use? It is clear that it does not have the severe effects of harder drugs like meth or cocaine, and those mental complications probably only manifest in those who use marijuana extensively. But what little the studies have found should be able to hint at the idea that there is cause for concern.

Dustin2009

8 Jun 2009, 04:06 AM

Wives

It is very easy to get just about any drug you could hope for, just ask around and if that were not enough, it is not beneath some dealers to encourage younger people to 'try' a drug with the sole intent of creating an addiction. Legalizing drugs would put control in the goverments hands by way of age restrictions and licensing. Although a 2009 Federal Government Survey, reported 'For the first time, national studies show that today’s teens are more likely to have abused a prescription painkiller than any street drug'.

National Institute of Drug Abuse Survey 2008

* 14.6% of all the teens reported illicit drug use just in the previous month
* 15.4% of the 12th graders reported abusing prescription drugs
* 9.7% of the 12th graders abused Vicodin (hydrocodone)
* 4.7% of the 12th graders abused OxyContin
* 32.4% of the 12th graders had used marijuana in the past year

Over one-third of the students were willing to break the law and use illegal drugs.
It's pretty obvious that people are going to try drugs legal or not. The only effective preventitive measure would be honest and open drug education.

survey results taken from
http://www.blogcatalog.com/topic/marijuana+survey/

CEOofRawness

8 Jun 2009, 02:17 PM

Dustin pretty much nailed my intended response. The demand is there, which means that there will always be a market for drug dealers. How many times have you seen a press conference with a bunch of cops confiscating a ridiculous amount of drugs and guns, only to have the exact same bust happen months later? They think they are making a dent in the illegal drug dealing, but they're only splashing the tide.

I argue mainly for marijuana because it is relatively safe, even when considering legal drugs like alcohol. It doesn't cause the same social problems as alcohol, either. How many times have you heard of a pothead coming home and beating their wives and children? It's a drug that makes you mellow, not violent. The violence around marijuana is in its prohibition. The most damage a pothead could make socially is eating all of the salsa and chips at a party.

You might have a point about the long-term effects; it's hard to know what they are considering it's illegal status. But with 14 million current users just in the US, you'd think you'd see a trend in specific medical illnesses popping up. And the dangers of smoking marijuana might pose a health risk to the lungs, but burning any plant and inhaling the smoke will damage the lungs, among causing other health problems. It's most commonly smoked because 1) it produces effects much faster and 2) it's the most convenient. There are ways around this, like using a vaporizer. But a vaporizer is expensive and considered drug paraphernalia (i.e. illegal), even though it's much safer than smoking marijuana.

wivesandknives

9 Jun 2009, 03:52 AM

Well maybe 'easy to get' what the wrong thing to say. I suppose it is rather easy, but it is still illegal, it does complicate the entire issue. You'd have to be discreet in buying and ingesting for example, so it boils down to a matter of inconvenience. I'm sure there are people who are ambivalent about marijuana use, who are just opportunity hunters, so that if they can pick it up in the convenience store when they're buying a pack of gum-- why not? As well, there are definitely people who don't use it because it is illegal.

For the effects, you don't have to be volatile in any way to make stupid decisions and cause harm.

As for your point on long term effects, I'm not sure its statistically sound to assume that marijuana use would correlate positively with mental illness, even if marijuana does influence mental illness. There are way too many variables to confound such a thing- different people may react differently to marijuana, things like usage and risk factors have to be considered, etc.

p.s. I'm totally playing devil's advocate here, so if it seems like I'm grasping at straws, it's because I probably am. :ph34r:

bass_n_treble

9 Jun 2009, 03:59 AM

Where's the option for 'decriminalization'?

It shouldn't be legal, but it shouldn't be something anyone can be thrown in jail for.

CEOofRawness

9 Jun 2009, 05:20 PM

Decriminalization will make things worse, since criminals will be more willing to deal drugs (many cases of intent to sell are reduced to possession), which fuels the underground market.

Not to mention that companies and government agencies will still implement random drug testing. Marijuana metabolites stay in your system longer than any other drug (up to several weeks). This means that you could go home on Friday, enjoy smoking yourself a blunt, and get fired for it on Monday. The way people get around it is by diluting urine samples, substituting them, etc. This system rewards the dishonest ones that cheat their way out and punishes the others. Not only that, but sometimes after an automobile accident, they might drug test those involved. Even if you smoked last week and are perfectly sober, you'll get yourself in trouble for it. In some states, being charged with possession of marijuana can get your license suspended, even if you weren't driving at the time. The laws against marijuana just aren't fair.

CEOofRawness

9 Jun 2009, 06:15 PM

Well maybe 'easy to get' what the wrong thing to say. I suppose it is rather easy, but it is still illegal, it does complicate the entire issue. You'd have to be discreet in buying and ingesting for example, so it boils down to a matter of inconvenience.

Alcohol has been around for a long time now, and we don't see the majority of the population with a drinking problem now, do we? The rehab addiction rates for marijuana are pathetically low compared to alcohol (40% vs 16%). (http://www.nida.nih.gov/InfoFacts/treatmenttrends.html) And 16% is still not a realistic depiction of the admission rate, either. Most people that are sent to rehab for marijuana are forced to one way, usually by the judge:

http://stash.norml.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/2007_teds-21-300x217.jpg Source: http://oas.samhsa.gov/TEDS2k7highlights/TEDSHighl2k7Tbl4.htm

On top of that, those that were admitted showed signs hardly resemble that of addicts. 37% haven't even used marijuana in the past 30 days:

http://stash.norml.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/2007_teds-31-300x217.jpg
Source: http://oas.samhsa.gov/TEDS2k7highlights/TEDSHighl2k7Tbl3.htm

Source: http://blog.norml.org/2009/04/01/2007-treatment-episode-data-set-teds-marijuana-stats/ (Links to statistic tables above included)

p.s. I'm totally playing devil's advocate here, so if it seems like I'm grasping at straws, it's because I probably am. :ph34r:

I know. So far you have yet to make an argument that can't be applied to both alcohol and tobacco, though.

Edit: except for the mental illness part, although evidence on that is very, VERY lacking at best...

bass_n_treble

10 Jun 2009, 04:18 AM

Decriminalization will make things worse, since criminals will be more willing to deal drugs (many cases of intent to sell are reduced to possession), which fuels the underground market.

Yes, and it will save billions of taxpayer dollars on keeping non-violent criminals out of penitentiaries and back where they belong: on the couch watching Mystery Science Theatre 3000 baked out of their minds.

I honestly don't see any potential drug dealers intimidated by laws, I disagree in that it would get "worse". I'm talking from a fiscal standpoint, it is completely worthless to keep some guy with a bag of pot that he was going to smoke by himself in prison because he went beyond some arbitrary amount that presupposes intent to deal, as set by the hippie backlash in the 60s. Meanwhile, DWI lawyers can have you back on the road for the seventh time, only to kill some poor pedestrian one day. But... the money he spent on legal alcohol benefits the economy...

Hm. If I think of it from a strictly financial standpoint, it would actually make more sense for it to be legal. But then the fucking most corrupt and worthless wing of our bureaucracy--the FDA--and Monsanto, the pure evil corporation that controls all the terrible ingredients that are giving our kids autism, premature puberty, obesity, sugar addiction, etc. etc. ...well, all those assholes will suddenly have free reign to step in and "regulate"...

oh, the shitstorm that will happen then.

Anyway, in the course of the night, my position has differed slightly, but I'm still not completely sold on legalization.

CEOofRawness

10 Jun 2009, 08:23 PM

Marijuana became illegal for the wrong reasons (http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/12/22/whyIsMarijuanaIllegal.html) to begin with. Not to mention that alcohol is much worse, and yet we're fine with it being legal. When's the last time you heard about a pothead coming home and beating his wife and kids? The worst thing that a pothead can be accused of is eating all the macaroni n cheese in the house. It's a drug that doesn't harm others (and little harm to the user as well, especially when not smoked) when used responsibly.

Factor in the money we can make and save (http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/07/commentary/wastler/wastler/) by legalizing marijuana instead of having that money go to criminals, and legalization is a no-brainer.

Neville

10 Jun 2009, 09:32 PM

CEOofRawness

10 Jun 2009, 10:01 PM

At this point, I have to admit I'm for complete legalization. The revenue for state and federal government is just too great to turn down. I still don't support people smoking it, but it is rather hypocritical of me to support alcohol and not this. Smoke it at home or in a designated smoking area and do it responsibly and I've no problems. I guess you finally won my over. Actual implementation of new marijuana policy will be mighty interesting.

I'm glad I could finally bring you over to the dark side, lol. In all seriousness though, it's a common misconception that every pot smoker is a pothead, when they actually comprise a minority of the pot smoking population. Most pot smokers are regular every day joes that choose to take a few hits off a joint instead of downing a few beers. Most pot smokers actually hate potheads; they give all the others a bad rep. I don't encourage anyone to become a pothead any more than I'd encourage anyone to become a drunk.

edit: I also appreciate the fact that you recognize that there is no argument against marijuana that cannot also be used for alcohol. Many people overlook this and get offended when called a hypocrite, when in reality you can't be for one and not the other without sounding like one. Alcohol is just as dangerous, if not more than, marijuana. We're gonna need another Al Capone for people to realize that prohibition still is a bad idea.

The war on drugs has failed. 6,000 human beings lost their lives last year because of Mexican drug cartels, and most of their profit comes from marijuana. Billions of dollars are wasted on this war on drugs, 700,000+ people were arrested last year for possession alone, and yet kids still have easier access to it than alcohol. The war on drugs has been lost and we need to cut our losses and try a new approach.

Question for those that live in California: considering the legal status of medical marijuana, is pot use out of control? Is it really breaking down the fabric of society and dooming you guys into anarchy? (This is the picture prohibitionists paint whenever legalization is even mentioned)

CEOofRawness

14 Jun 2009, 04:18 PM

"America's High: The Case for and Against Pot"... Anderson Cooper 360 on CNN at 10pm Eastern Time.

Not an end-all, be-all debate, but it should prove interesting in the least. CNN likes to ride the fence on the issue, so I doubt they'll take sides (at least not until one of the sides "wins").

krea

14 Jun 2009, 10:09 PM

All drugs should be legalized. Criminalizing people for personal habits is just wrong.

Limey

14 Jun 2009, 10:22 PM

All drugs should be legalized. Criminalizing people for personal habits is just wrong.

What if someone's personal habit was to get hopped up on crystal meth and they broke into your mom's house to wear her underwear like a ski-mask?

Should they only be prosecuted for trespass?

krea

14 Jun 2009, 10:28 PM

What if someone's personal habit was to get hopped up on crystal meth and they broke into your mom's house to wear her underwear like a ski-mask?

Should they only be prosecuted for trespass?

Breaking into people's houses is forbidden, i don't see your argument?

Limey

15 Jun 2009, 12:27 AM

Breaking into people's houses is forbidden, i don't see your argument?

It's not an argument, it's a question, I was wondering if they should only be charged for criminal trespass (and possibly keep the "ski mask")

krea

15 Jun 2009, 03:40 AM

I'm sure breaking into my mothers house would bother me a bit. Why would i care if he was on meth or alchohol?

Limey

15 Jun 2009, 03:43 AM

I'm sure breaking into my mothers house would bother me a bit. Why would i care if he was on meth or alchohol?

because one isn't taxable and this nation was founded on no taxation without representation, so if you support taxable things, then you hate America?

CEOofRawness

15 Jun 2009, 03:51 AM

All drugs should be legalized. Criminalizing people for personal habits that don't harm others or invade their personal space is just wrong.

Corrected.

It's not an argument, it's a question, I was wondering if they should only be charged for criminal trespass (and possibly keep the "ski mask")

I think what he means is that you'd get in trouble for breaking and entering (of course), but not the drug use. I agree, although I would tack on additional penalties for not using drugs responsibly (i.e. committing a crime while under the influence).

I think you're criticizing the syntax and not the semantics of "Criminalizing people for personal habits is just wrong.", which is why I corrected it above.

Not 100% sure if it's what he meant, but I think he was implying that whatever you do in your own little world that doesn't affect others should be out of the scope of the government's reach.

krea

15 Jun 2009, 03:52 AM

I'm pretty neutral towards America.

CEOofRawness

15 Jun 2009, 04:34 AM

For those who believe everything the government says... well the Drug Czar is not only "allowed" to lie, but has to lie (http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2007/10/09/theDrugCzarIsRequiredByLaw.html). Don't believe the propaganda.

I'm pretty neutral towards America.

You're one of few.

carbon cold

15 Jun 2009, 04:36 AM

Up until this moment, I've always read your name "CEOofRawrness". This is a little bit of a sad moment.

/OT.

CEOofRawness

15 Jun 2009, 04:44 AM

Up until this moment, I've always read your name "CEOofRawrness". This is a little bit of a sad moment.

/OT.

Ah, so you've finally sobered up.

And Rawrness? WTF?

carbon cold

15 Jun 2009, 04:47 AM

Ah, so you've finally sobered up.

And Rawrness? WTF?

Only for as long as I have to.

.. I know, well, no, I don't know how I read it that way, I just.. did. I thought it was cute and a little retarded.

*apparently, is the retard.*

Epimetheus

15 Jun 2009, 08:46 AM

because one isn't taxable and this nation was founded on no taxation without representation, so if you support taxable things, then you hate America?

We wouldn't be having these arguments if it was legal to be getting high right now.

CEOofRawness

15 Jun 2009, 03:06 PM

CEOofRawness

18 Jun 2009, 12:03 AM

Donald Tashkin has studied marijuana for 30 years and has been heavily funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (which want MJ to stay illegal), yet believes that marijuana should be legalized because studies show that there is no evidence that marijuana causes cancer. He also states that marijuana is less dangerous than either alcohol or tobacco.

This is coming from a guy that has been doing research on the effects of marijuana for 30 years, and has been paid by the government to find evidence that it's dangerous and causes cancer. He instead found the opposite to be true, as his studies showed that marijuana had anti-cancer properties.

“Early on, when our research appeared as if there would be a negative impact on lung health, I was opposed to legalization because I thought it would lead to increased use and that would lead to increased health effects,” Tashkin says. “But at this point, I’d be in favor of legalization. I wouldn’t encourage anybody to smoke any substances. But I don’t think it should be stigmatized as an illegal substance. Tobacco smoking causes far more harm. And in terms of an intoxicant, alcohol causes far more harm.”

krea

18 Jun 2009, 12:38 AM

socrateez

18 Jun 2009, 01:51 AM

CEOofRawness

18 Jun 2009, 02:42 AM

@ CEOofRawness

It doesn't matter if marihuana is harmful for the user or not, criminalizing a drug only leads to more harm no matter how harmful it is. Actually, the more harmful the drug, the more harmful a prohibition is. Just look at Switzerland, they had a heroin problem in the 90's, to solve this they started giving junkies free heroin three times pr day in the late 90's, and are still doing this to day. To day heroin is far LESS popular in Switzerland because they threat it like a health problem, not a crime.

I recommend looking at this report from Portugal. They decriminalized all drug use in 1999:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/greenwald_whitepaper.pdf

I agree 100%. All drugs should be legalized, since regulating (not banning) it is the most effective way of controlling drug use. And drug use is definitely a public health issue, not a criminal justice issue. If you consider just the addicts, they can't help themselves. These people need help, not to be branded as criminals and ostracized. As for the ones that aren't addicts... well if they can manage to live a normal, healthy life while occasionally taking drugs, what's the problem? People do that all the time, especially with alcohol, which is also a drug, and an addictive one at that.

I mainly talk about marijuana because of the insane amount of hypocrisy (marijuana a schedule I drug?!), lies, and just plain ol' reefer madness that is still going on today. If you're gonna set a standard and limits as to what drugs we will allow in society, be consistent. If marijuana is considered too dangerous, fine. But then ban alcohol and tobacco as well.

Bottom line is that there is no good reason to keep pot illegal, even if you're for the prohibition of illicit drugs.

Also, pot legalization has been an ongoing current issue, particularly in California, where Assembly Bill 390: The Marijuana Control, Regulation and Education Act (http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7814) was introduced into state legislature back in February. It seems like there might be enough momentum for something big to happen. It's already legal de facto in California through the apparently "broken" medical marijuana laws. If it becomes any bigger, full-blown legalization will just be a mere formality rather than a dramatic change in society.

Not to mention that I haven't even gotten started on all the uses for hemp.

CEOofRawness

18 Jun 2009, 03:14 AM

All the reasons i would have stated are pretty well covered by you all. I knew that logic and reason would reign at least here on the issue.

I'm for legalization and regulation.

Also, how do you think current economy woes are effecting the number of people willing to start an illicit drug business? I have known of a few people who have invested money into a trusted dealers enterprise. Win-win for both in most cases.
And did you know that it is the number one cash crop here in America? Over corn even.
My sources say the Cannabis market is doing just fine through these tough times.

According to MSNBC's special Marijuana, Inc., in some cities in California, marijuana composes up to 60% of their economy, with all the growing and mom and pop shops they have.

People are gonna smoke pot no matter what (approx. ~15 million current users), and there are two ways to go about this: have the local drug dealers sell it (no taxes), or regulate it and have corporate businesses sell it (more tax money).

For the record, I don't support the "legalize and tax the hell out of it" argument. Taxing the hell out of it would just force it back underground to the black market again. The whole taxes bit is just an incentive for others to consider legalization. Majority rules, and the majority don't smoke marijuana; we need some sort of incentive for them to support legalization.

socrateez

18 Jun 2009, 01:23 PM

For the record, I don't support the "legalize and tax the hell out of it" argument. Taxing the hell out of it would just force it back underground to the black market again. The whole taxes bit is just an incentive for others to consider legalization. Majority rules, and the majority don't smoke marijuana; we need some sort of incentive for them to support legalization.

I agree, there would definitely be a point to where at least a black market would begin to arise in competition. look at the prescription drug exchanging that goes on between the US and Mexico.
Tobacco addiction will now cost you about as much as the average pothead spends.

MacKenzi

19 Jun 2009, 02:57 AM

Why do people even care if others get high? As long as they don't bother anyone else, I don't see how it's anyone's business what people do behind closed doors. Marijuana isn't gonna make you go out and smoke crack or kill someone, and you can't overdose on it if you tried (it isn't practical). It also mellows you out and makes you less violent.

I'd like to hear the same in regards to alcohol.

People care if others get high (this is my opinion) for the same reasons they care if others explore their own sexuality, (In Mississippi sodomy is STILL Illegal, marriage or no marriage) ,change genders, marry members of the same sex, are Islamic, are against interracial marriages, (of which I am a product of) and are against blacks becoming president. (look at what a half black human being had to go through) Death to the bible-banging baby boomers!!!!! :mad:

CoHo

19 Jun 2009, 03:13 AM

Marijuana is fucked

Fucked is marijuana

Fucked is fucked

Marijuana is Marijuana

Fucked marijuana fucked

fucked fucked fucked

...and seriously... do you want more posts like that? Then legalize pot.

hippies, go walk the Appalachian trail or maybe save some breed of mongoose nobody gives a shit about or screen print a bunch of t-shirts - yeah that'll save us from the slow bake of our current environmental clusterfuck. You god damned, dirty, unwashed, sara vowell reading, this american life listening, organic living... argh! I don't even have the energy for this I need a beer.

CEOofRawness

19 Jun 2009, 04:21 AM

There's no good argument to keep marijuana illegal without sounding like a hypocrite. Drugs are a public health issue, not a criminal justice issue.

I wish there would be a revolution, and not just for reasons pertaining to marijuana or drugs, but just for reasons in general (corruption, etc.). The war on drugs seems to be fueled by corruption. It's as if special interests keep marijuana illegal, while other politicians actually are dumb enough to believe their bullshit.

CoHo

19 Jun 2009, 04:35 AM

Totally d00d. Because legalizing marijuana means like, no special interests what-so-ever. If only your brainpower was available during the october revolution.

CEOofRawness

19 Jun 2009, 04:45 AM

Please explain how hemp, one of the world's largest cash crops (which doesn't get you high), still remains illegal, despite its many uses?

socrateez

19 Jun 2009, 01:02 PM

Please explain how hemp, one of the world's largest cash crops (which doesn't get you high), still remains illegal, despite its many uses?
The special interests in this case are obviously Cartels and the Governments who back them. It's not secret that Cartels launder their money through corporations in other countries and trade on the Market.

Money my friends. Where is the most money to be had by the fewest people?
Also, look at the enormous expensive legal apparatus in place. Huge industry.
I don't even want to go into what it means to have private corporations running prisons and jails.

A more direct answer to your question is that in the past so Ive been told, Special interests such as Dupont and Hearst, had a lot to do with the criminalization efforts. They already had products dependent on other raw materials. Hemp is a nice drop in for both industries of the time and even now. Trees and oil require huge infrastructure. Hemp grows anywhere whether you want it to or not. You cant pump oil out your back yard or harvest wood pulp from your lawn. The interests concerned can only see that as potential profit lost if everyone is growing it. Recreational of course.
Industrial would require a huge change in operation. The big farms would benefit. It would be like GM retooling its entire line to make tanks. Gotta be enough profit in it.
Fact is, the price of pot or hemp would eventually plummet as its so cheap and renewable. Less profit for legit companies.

It is illegal because our fine government creates more jobs to combat it and its users than would be necessary to produce it legit. 700,000 users arrested last year out of 14 million admitted users.
How many jobs and what cost is necessary to create those numbers under current laws?

The hypocrisy of the drug war and its laws are quite apparent and illustrate that private interest is involved. Every poll Ive seen, overwhelmingly is for legalization or decriminalization. The people want it and have said so for years. What more evidence of control by special interests do you need?
For me the real issue is ultimately about Rights and that our government is no longer listening or interested in the will of the people so long as they are quiet and the game is played the same every four years.

It is way more than just a drug war. Again, where is the most money to be made and by whom? Who benefits the most, Legal or illegal?

All the logical arguments have been made for its legalization. There is no dissent based on hard facts of harm to anyone but some corp's profit margins.

...end of rant...for now.

quantumzero

19 Jun 2009, 02:02 PM

excession

19 Jun 2009, 02:46 PM

I rather see it decriminalized

if its legalized I see it being manipulated by the tobacco companies in a bad way

I suspect the USA would become a better place as a whole.

Baby Boomers don't think for themselves.

They get all their info about everything from the news & their peers who have proven to be just as dumb.

If tomorrow everyone over the age of 50 were to just disappear

A lot of ignorant ways of thinking & being would just disappear with them

i'm not a baby boomer but i am old enough to realise that a lot of wisdom is built up over the life of an intelligent individual. the old people that are stupid and closed to new ideas were that way when they were young too. plus those shitty old ideas already got passed on to their 20 something kids...

CEOofRawness

19 Jun 2009, 09:44 PM

i'm not a baby boomer but i am old enough to realise that a lot of wisdom is built up over the life of an intelligent individual. the old people that are stupid and closed to new ideas were that way when they were young too. plus those shitty old ideas already got passed on to their 20 something kids...

Not to mention Ron Paul doesn't follow the mold, even though he's older than McCain(!).

One thing that keeps marijuana illegal is international treaties. So even if the US turns around and decides to legalize it, we still have those treaties to deal with, although I don't think the US would care too much about them.

What I find funny about the marijuana debate is that the prohibitionists have run out of ideas to the point where they need to make shit up as an excuse to keep it illegal. Case in point: the gateway drug theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_theory). This theory is just a scare government scare tactic made through the manipulation of statistics (http://www.marijuanalibrary.org/gateway.html).

Most people who support marijuana grew up with the whole "drugs are bad" mentality that everyone is indoctrinated with, and then switch over. Why? (Ask some of the "converts" on this forum) Because they come across logical arguments and surmountable evidence regarding how relatively safe marijuana is, along with the benefits that legalization would bring. Generally speaking, people that are pro-legalization look at the facts and then make their decision (http://current.com/items/90058270_dr-donald-tashkin-ucla-id-be-in-favor-of-legalization.htm) rather than the other way around, which is what (many) prohibitionists do.

The reason why the legalization movement is gaining momentum is because the truth is slowly coming to light. You can fool someone all the time or everyone some of the time, but you can't fool everyone all of the time.

meanlittlechimp

7 Jul 2009, 11:59 PM

They're actually running TV ads to legalize in CA now.
http://adage.com/adages/post?article_id=137770

Although the tax wouldn't cure CA's entire budget gap, they are neglecting to count the monies saved from incarceration and enforcement of those law. Not to mention the costs of the crime associated with the trafficking.

skycloud86

8 Jul 2009, 12:02 AM

I support marijuana legalisation fully. People should be able to have the choice, just like they can with alcohol and cigarettes.

nzashadow

18 Jul 2009, 10:47 AM

http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_action/Real_Reason_Hemp_Illegal.html

The more I read about how amazing this plant is, the bigger my headache gets about how insane the world is today.

"What I find funny about the marijuana debate is that the prohibitionists have run out of ideas to the point where they need to make shit up as an excuse to keep it illegal. Case in point: the gateway drug theory. This theory is just a scare government scare tactic made through the manipulation of statistics."

This statement is funny because they had to make shit up to make it illegal in the first place, they haven't told the truth since they got on this bandwagon. I mean, have you even seen Reefer Madness? It was hysterical... until I realized it was movies like that produced all this hate for this miracle plant.

CEOofRawness

24 Jul 2009, 05:13 PM

It was hysterical... until I realized it was movies like that produced all this hate for this miracle plant.

The prohibitionist's argument in general is hysterical until you realize that the majority of the population believe it.

socrateez

24 Jul 2009, 09:24 PM

The prohibitionist's argument in general is hysterical until you realize that the majority of the population believe it. Propaganda works. True Mass media like radio and T.V. provided the canvas in which to refine it to an art.

Sheeple.

CEOofRawness

26 Jul 2009, 11:30 PM

Propaganda works. True Mass media like radio and T.V. provided the canvas in which to refine it to an art.

Sheeple.

This is what has made me lose faith in the human race.

The case for marijuana is as clear as day, and even some otherwise intelligent people still suffer from reefer madness regardless.

Rashes

5 Aug 2009, 12:11 AM

YES!!! :devil: :devil: :devil:

rustynail

5 Aug 2009, 03:56 PM

It's a fucking plant, you know. Just a friggen' plant.

Unapplied Knowledge

5 Aug 2009, 04:08 PM

I voted yes, but actually, we shouldn't legalize it, but rather, decriminalize it. I say that because while I ultimately want legalization, it will likely be easier to work into the step of decriminalization as a means of working towards legalization gradually.

rustynail

5 Aug 2009, 04:10 PM

you got it all backwards. Decriminalization would still give them the right to give repeated fines.

Unapplied Knowledge

5 Aug 2009, 05:05 PM

you got it all backwards. Decriminalization would still give them the right to give repeated fines.

Indeed. But I think it will be easier to move things through one step at a time rather than jump from point A to point D.

CEOofRawness

5 Aug 2009, 10:50 PM

you got it all backwards. Decriminalization would still give them the right to give repeated fines.

Not to mention that testing positive will still get you in trouble on drug tests. I can handle a fine, but not getting kicked out of the Army for pissing hot.

Indeed. But I think it will be easier to move things through one step at a time rather than jump from point A to point D.

Very true. It starts becoming more acceptable in society if we take small steps. Just look at medical marijuana and how acceptable that has become, which no doubt has had an influence on the overall acceptance of marijuana as well.

Obama (or anyone else in the US for that matter) can't do shit about legalizing marijuana anyway because of international treaties. International pressure would prevent that from ever happening. Unless there's a worldwide change in how we view pot, that is.

depp

5 Aug 2009, 11:09 PM

Obama can do plenty. He can say, "i direct you to create and debate legislation aimed at decriminalising marijuana" to the House of Representatives, can't he? International treaties mean jack as a matter of established US foreign policy.

Or Obama could simply say to the press "I really think marijuana should be decriminalised".

Persecuting and imprisoning people for possession of small amounts of drugs is not rational. Not only is it a violation of the most basic of liberties- namely, freedom of mind- it is also practically-speaking a nightmare for the prison system, not to mention the taxpayer.

socrateez

6 Aug 2009, 12:33 AM

Obama (or anyone else in the US for that matter) can't do shit about legalizing marijuana anyway because of international treaties. International pressure would prevent that from ever happening. Unless there's a worldwide change in how we view pot, that is.

I agree and would like to add something. +Also worth note in addition to this view is that despite pretty radical changes in policies, economic growth, natural disasters even....The pot keeps comin in and here is the most important part to consider. Why has the price remained relatively stable for so long?
There are regional price differences, quality differences and such, but overall, i pay for a sack what i payed ten years ago. Twenty years ago or more it was a bit cheaper even.
What market remains that stable. Why?

My theory is that Agencies are involved and carefully regulate things already.
Also referring to treaties with neighboring countries, thats what black market is for. To fund things you cant legally do under a treaty or body of law like a constitution. Drugs fund soo many conflicts in the world.

there is huge opposition on many levels to legalization. Relaxation of current law would be the best I hope for.

Potheads dont tend to group together into violent angry mobs demanding revolution over current law. Hell, i would venture to say that Cannabis is a great "Soma" helping keep the populace all chilled out and watching "JackAss" reruns. But thats just another angle to speculate wildly about.

LastRailway

6 Aug 2009, 12:37 AM

I voted yes, though I find somewhat unsettling the idea that marijuana might be freely available for anyone.

socrateez

6 Aug 2009, 12:41 AM

I voted yes, though I find somewhat unsettling the idea that marijuana might be freely available for anyone.
It is though. Perhaps not free, but widely available and easily accessible.

Why unsettling by the way?

Mr.G

6 Aug 2009, 12:47 AM

I don't smoke the stuff so I could give a shit one way or the other :)

CEOofRawness

6 Aug 2009, 12:51 AM

If Obama wants another term, he would never even dream of legalizing or decriminalize marijuana. It's an enormous political risk, and an unnecessary one for him at that. He would then have to answer to the global community, whose disposition towards him would take a hit. I don't think it's worth the effort for him.

Micheal Phelps was smart to not even directly admit to smoking weed, just being vague like "I made a mistake". Even talking about it is taboo in the big picture.

And yes, locking people up for drugs is beyond ridiculous, not to mention hypocritical. Alcohol is more dangerous than weed, and let me not even get started on cigarettes, which do nothing more than addict and kill you (as well as others second-handedly). And wrecking havoc on the prison system isn't a problem for the ones profiting off of it (coughdickcheneycough). I don't even think it's too far-fetched to think that drug dealers are paying off politicians, especially when you consider that they are the ones that have the most to lose when it comes to legalization.

I voted yes, though I find somewhat unsettling the idea that marijuana might be freely available for anyone.

Why? Are you afraid Denny's will be way too packed at night, or that the late night drive thrus will be too packed? It's not like potheads come home and beat their wives, something that can't be said about alcoholics...

CEOofRawness

6 Aug 2009, 12:59 AM

I don't smoke the stuff so I could give a shit one way or the other :)

Do you care about the deaths of 6,000 human beings last year from drug cartel violence? Remember that something so simple as legalization could deal a large blow, if not end, the violence. Imagine, just changing a few laws could save so many lives.

Not to mention the ridiculous amount of taxpayer money used to fight this useless drug war. We have an entire agency dedicated to this madness. Would you rather have criminals profit or have a new market that can possibly boost the economy?

Industrial hemp can be used for manufacturing many products, including paper. A plant that matures in a few months can be used to make paper instead of chopping down trees that take years to grow. Also, the medicinal properties of marijuana are extremely promising, but government propaganda and intervention prevents possible break-through medicines from being discovered.

The advantages for legalization stretch far beyond just allowing pot smokers to smoke, while the disadvantages affect everyone just the same.

LastRailway

6 Aug 2009, 01:04 AM

It is though. Perhaps not free, but widely available and easily accessible.

Why unsettling by the way?

Yeah, this is true. I just prefer to think that a kid or an adolescent would have it somewhat less easy to find pot, it won't be like going to the whatever store and buy some, legally and spending less money than what they would now.

I can see the reasons why marijuana should be legalised and I mostly agree. Not using it myself makes me to distrust this stuff and I consider it somewhat dangerous, in the sense that sometimes it can be the cause one would try more heavy drugs.

Why? Are you afraid Denny's will be way too packed at night, or that the late night drive thrus will be too packed? It's not like potheads come home and beat their wives, something that can't be said about alcoholics...

It wouldn't affect me personally at all either way. I'm just not very convinced on how innocent marijuana is for the use of heavier drugs.

Mr.G

6 Aug 2009, 01:27 AM

Do you care about the deaths of 6,000 human beings last year from drug cartel violence? Remember that something so simple as legalization could deal a large blow, if not end, the violence. Imagine, just changing a few laws could save so many lives.

Not to mention the ridiculous amount of taxpayer money used to fight this useless drug war. We have an entire agency dedicated to this madness. Would you rather have criminals profit or have a new market that can possibly boost the economy?

Industrial hemp can be used for manufacturing many products, including paper. A plant that matures in a few months can be used to make paper instead of chopping down trees that take years to grow. Also, the medicinal properties of marijuana are extremely promising, but government propaganda and intervention prevents possible break-through medicines from being discovered.

The advantages for legalization stretch far beyond just allowing pot smokers to smoke, while the disadvantages affect everyone just the same.

I take back what I said. I do give a shit.

Marijuana is legal. The United States of America turns into Raccoon City due to the onslaught of mindless potheads. Not saying that everyone who smokes pot is stupid, but the majority are. This rising population mixed with the high percentage of dumbasses that we already have in this country will make intelligence no longer a minatory, but a myth. And can you imagine all of the half-conscious smokers behind the wheel? O the carnage :D

So yeah, lets do this. For America!

Bongmaster General

6 Aug 2009, 01:33 AM

My bong sense is tingling. I'll just leave this here:

_Twre6ItGEI

cripple

6 Aug 2009, 01:38 AM

Yes, of course. That will mean(hopefully) less cops on the street. And I much prefer the hippies to them.

avolkiteshvara

6 Aug 2009, 02:01 AM

Mmm........."LSD is da bomb" You officially heard it from dragnet.

socrateez

6 Aug 2009, 02:13 AM

Yeah, this is true. I just prefer to think that a kid or an adolescent would have it somewhat less easy to find pot, it won't be like going to the whatever store and buy some, legally and spending less money than what they would now.

Regulation would make it somewhat more difficult for teens to acquire
The availability of ALL drugs in high school are much higher than the limited social networks we have as adults.
Teens are all about socializing. Pot was for a time just that for me. Helped in that way.
Anyway,the average teens social network is far larger than most adults therefore more opportunity for contact. Thats not even taking into account they are all crammed together in a school.

Bottom line:
Pot was way easier to get in school. Cigarettes were easy to get too and also depended on adults of questionable moral or ethical character to acquire
I dont promote adolescent use of any drug.

No matter where ive been in this country, its a phone call away.

Helios

6 Aug 2009, 03:02 AM

Yes, they should legalize it, and tax fuck out of it and lower my income tax!

Ok, srsly, I mean raise it less.

CEOofRawness

6 Aug 2009, 03:22 AM

I take back what I said. I do give a shit.

Marijuana is legal. The United States of America turns into Raccoon City due to the onslaught of mindless potheads. Not saying that everyone who smokes pot is stupid, but the majority are. This rising population mixed with the high percentage of dumbasses that we already have in this country will make intelligence no longer a minatory, but a myth. And can you imagine all of the half-conscious smokers behind the wheel? O the carnage :D

So yeah, lets do this. For America!

Statistics (ironically from the government) show that a high percentage of pot smokers are employed (http://blog.norml.org/2009/04/13/who-are-you-ii-industrious-smart-more-samhda-stats-on-adult-marijuana-users/), and overall employment doesn't differ much from non-smokers.

http://stash.norml.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/us-adult-employment1-300x218.jpghttp://stash.norml.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/us-adult-user-employment1-300x218.jpg

Pot smokers are also just as likely to be in college as their non-smoking counterparts:
http://stash.norml.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/education-of-users-300x150.jpg

Not every pothead is like Cheech and Chong you know...

It wouldn't affect me personally at all either way. I'm just not very convinced on how innocent marijuana is for the use of heavier drugs.
A small percentage of pot smokers do other drugs. The gateway theory is just skewed statistics. They say that a large percentage of drug users start with marijuana (around 90% or so). What they don't take into account is that the people who use marijuana and move onto hard drugs is actually a very small subset of all pot smokers. I need to look up the statistics, but I think it was somewhere around 1% of pot smokers move onto other drugs.

The gateway theory is bullshit (source (http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3418#question4)):

Critics claim that marijuana is a "gateway drug." How do you respond to this charge?
There is no conclusive evidence that the effects of marijuana are causally linked to the subsequent use of other illicit drugs. Preliminary animal studies alleging that marijuana "primed" the brain for other drug-taking behavior have not been replicated, nor are they supported by epidemiological human data. Statistically, for every 104 Americans who have tried marijuana, there is only one regular user of cocaine, and less than one user of heroin. Marijuana is clearly a "terminus" rather than a gateway for the overwhelming majority of marijuana smokers.

For those minority of marijuana smokers who do graduate to harder substances, it is marijuana prohibition -- which forces users to associate with the illicit drug black market -- rather than the use of marijuana itself, that often serves as a doorway to the world of hard drugs. The more users become integrated in an environment where, apart from cannabis, hard drugs can also be obtained, the greater the chances they will experiment with harder drugs.

In Holland, where politicians decided over 25 years ago to separate marijuana from the illicit drug market by permitting coffee shops all over the country to sell small amounts of marijuana to adults, individuals use marijuana and other drugs at rates less than half of their American counterparts.

Marijuana prohibition - the fact that people need to interact with the black market and are exposed to other drugs in the process - is the reason why people start with marijuana, the most commonly used illicit drug.

Jonah Davids

6 Aug 2009, 03:45 AM

Marijuana is legal. The United States of America turns into Raccoon City due to the onslaught of mindless potheads.

...who proceed to rip into your flesh and eat you while you scream in terror and pain? Or is it a different Raccoon City you are talking about? I don't know, I find it hard to take seriously the threat of undead cannibals. I might simply not be smoking the right substance.

aphemix

6 Aug 2009, 03:51 AM

So yeah, lets do this. For America!fuck yeah! Kill it from the inside out!

CEOofRawness

6 Aug 2009, 05:36 AM

I think the pro-legalization group needs to kill those narrow-minded prohibitionists for not agreeing with us.

Mr.G

6 Aug 2009, 07:47 AM

I think the pro-legalization group needs to kill those narrow-minded prohibitionists for not agreeing with us.

I'm not a prohibitionist, I just think weed is stupid. The whole idea of it.

Shoot!

6 Aug 2009, 08:48 AM

I'm not a prohibitionist, I just think weed is stupid. The whole idea of it.

Do you also think alcohol is stupid? If not, you should.

socrateez

6 Aug 2009, 01:58 PM

Consider the role drugs of natural origin have placed on our ancestry. Pretty much every civilization grew up on a religious mix of drugs or shamanistic religions.. Modern society has detached from those brutish roots in disgust and lost something important I think.

Dman

6 Aug 2009, 07:39 PM

The hypocrisy would be funny if it wasn't so damaging.

The unfortunate reality is that it will take the mainstream media hammering away on the issue before it gets any traction. Fortunately, this seems to be slowly happening - one just hopes it doesn't fade away.

Anyone who stops to think for just one moment knows that having alcohol legal while marijuana is illegal is utter nonsense. So that isn't the issue. The issue is the interests involved in keeping it illegal. However the statistics and awareness are beginning to break them down. But without the mainstream media staying on top of it, it will otherwise continue as is, since supporters are perceived as second class citizen potheads. But getting real data out there in front of people who otherwise just don't care will wake them up to the fact that they NEED to care.

Most people are too busy or too lazy and just listen to whatever the local 10:00 news tells them, so if the statistics on what the drug war has really accomplished are not being presented by the media, it will fade into the background again. The perception that it's just a bunch of potheads trying to legalize it needs to be overshadowed by the grim reality of the failed "war on drugs" and what a gigantic waste of money and life it is.

Furthermore the US government shares full responsibility for creating drug gangs/cartels and thus is responsible for the violence. Capitalism is a natural system man; if there's a demand, someone will supply it. Interfere in a natural system and you always get unintended consequences.

As for the gateway thing, any sensible person knows that's pure bullshit hypocrisy too. It's not even worth arguing about.

Unapplied Knowledge

6 Aug 2009, 08:47 PM

I find it hard to take seriously the threat of undead cannibals.

Wait.. wait.. I'm seeing something here.

Cannibals.

Cannabis.

Cannibals

Cannabis

Cannibals. Cannabis. Cannibals. Cannabis. Cannibals. Cannabis. Cannibals! Cannabis!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! *runs in terror*

CEOofRawness

7 Aug 2009, 03:07 AM

I'm not a prohibitionist, I just think weed is stupid. The whole idea of it.
Do you also think alcohol is stupid? If not, you should.

Exactly.

The hypocrisy would be funny if it wasn't so damaging....
...Most people are too busy or too lazy and just listen to whatever the local 10:00 news tells them, so if the statistics on what the drug war has really accomplished are not being presented by the media, it will fade into the background again. The perception that it's just a bunch of potheads trying to legalize it needs to be overshadowed by the grim reality of the failed "war on drugs" and what a gigantic waste of money and life it is.

You make a damn good point. Think about it this way: people against the Iraq war in 2003 were basically considered unpatriotic commie hippie bastards for not jumping on the bandwagon. With marijuana, if you support legalizing it, you're automatically a weedhead and your opinion isn't even considered, even if you provide facts and evidence in the argument.

Also, as far as the Iraq war goes, no one gave a damn about it until gas prices started going up. And now that the economy is going down, many people see it as just another expense we can't afford. People don't care about issues unless it affects them personally, so the pro-legalization crowd should focus on that.

That should get some people off the fence.

"Support legalization or the terrorists win"

Jonah Davids

11 Aug 2009, 07:46 AM

Also, as far as the Iraq war goes, no one gave a damn about it until gas prices started going up.

True for way too many people. Way everyone talks today, no one supported the Iraq War, or at least not because of fictitious WMD and ties to terrorism. No, in today's rewritten history of the past eight years, those who supported the Iraq War did so... for freedom. To liberate the people of Iraq. Everything else was just a convenient tool to convince those unpatriotic freedom-haters. It was all part of the master plan!

Way people talk today, no one was saying shit like "Nuke the ragheads" after 9/11, no one was suggesting to 'turn it into glass' (it = the Middle East), no one was suggesting we deport Muslims, no one was shouting-down people like me in a frothing-at-the-mouth circle jerk of hate and accusations of treason or "Muslim-lover."

CEOofRawness

14 Aug 2009, 06:28 AM

Limey

14 Aug 2009, 06:42 AM

<Chapelle>
Check it out; Real life, black white-supremacist (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/13/facebook.racial.threat/index.html?iref=mpstoryview)
Damn!
see, we wouldn't have shit like this happenin' if people had ready access to good legal weed.

Aint got time for that shit! - gotta watch me some slug porn! (http://www.wimp.com/weirdlife/)

socrateez

14 Aug 2009, 04:18 PM

The Georgia Representative Tommy Bentons (Rep) believes that "we should go to caning for people caught using and maybe execute dealers" (http://blog.norml.org/2009/08/12/georgia-lawmaker-calls-for-caning-executing-marijuana-offenders/#comments).

Before some of you ask:

"Caning is a form of corporal punishment consisting of up to 24 violent lashes with a long rattan cane that has been soaked in water. The procedure inflicts intense pain and deep, bloody lacerations that can take several months to heal."

Also, Brenton adds in an e-mail response to NORML:

“You and your cronies want it (marijuana) legalized so you can get a hit anytime without having to worry about getting arrested. I have forwarded your email to the Lowndes County sheriffs [sic] office so that they can be on the lookout for you. [emphasis NORML’s] Consider this my last correspondence on the the [sic] subject to you or anyone else who shares your similar “conservative views’.”

Interesting to say the least.

Pretty heated comments over this at NORML
Is this guy truly representative of the "will of the people" of Georgia? If so...We may consider walling Georgia off from the rest of us to keep the barbarians at bay waiting to cane everyone. If not, The fine people of that State need to get rid of that extremist Jack-Ass.

Now theres a lot of talk of voting out prohibitionists and voting in pro pot people.
Who? Where are they lined up? Can they even get elected on a platform associated with that issue without mega funding?
Doesnt seem to me that many people get to high gov offices without certain sacrifices in moral or ethical value as the monetary requirements for a chance at success rise.

CEOofRawness

14 Aug 2009, 11:28 PM

Pretty heated comments over this at NORML

Having 30+ grams is enough to get charged with intent to sell. A regular smoker might have that just for personal use, though. So we're talking about not only locking up and lashing, but possibly outright killing innocent people. Of course they're outraged!

Now theres a lot of talk of voting out prohibitionists and voting in pro pot people.
Who? Where are they lined up? Can they even get elected on a platform associated with that issue without mega funding?
Doesnt seem to me that many people get to high gov offices without certain sacrifices in moral or ethical value as the monetary requirements for a chance at success rise.

You're right; most politicians won't even admit that they support legalization, even if they do. As pot becomes more integrated into society, however, that might change as people become more accepting of pot. The majority now believe it should be regulated and taxed like alcohol. It's a matter of making it completely mainstream now so that it'll be political suicide NOT to support legalization.

VictorCharlie

15 Aug 2009, 03:42 AM

Free samples to all those who oppose legalization should help.

socrateez

15 Aug 2009, 03:59 AM

You're right; most politicians won't even admit that they support legalization, even if they do. As pot becomes more integrated into society, however, that might change as people become more accepting of pot. The majority now believe it should be regulated and taxed like alcohol. It's a matter of making it completely mainstream now so that it'll be political suicide NOT to support legalization.
I see this possibility as well.
If bankers could profit from it, they would back them.;)
A new source of debt for money creation would desperately be needed for that to happen. Illicit drugs are a huge money creator. Our economic system is based on debt as money. More debt, more money created. Drug dependency on a national level is a huge debt, so why not encourage its use and keep it illegal as well? Make money from both ends. Thats what we have now. National pot use is as much a part of the American economy as is bank loans.
Who knows? Maybe they got it all planned out to legalize at a critical economic time. You can bet money (hah) that banks will be heavily involved somehow. Like loans to the government to build up the hemp industries that could be created.

socrateez

15 Aug 2009, 04:02 AM

Free samples to all those who oppose legalization should help.
Ha! I found that quite humorous. I totally agree too.

CEOofRawness

15 Aug 2009, 06:15 AM

Trust me, the reason why marijuana is still illegal is because there ISN'T much profit you can make off of it. Marijuana is a weed, meaning you can grow it anywhere (except the arctic circle). Since legalizing it would allow people to grow it, there's no incentive to buy. And even if you do, it would be about $10 (equal to about 0.5 gram) a joint, probably a lot less if you buy it in bulk (1oz = 28 grams = approx $300, maybe less).

Pills, on the other hand, are much, MUCH more profitable. Marinol, which is pure 100% THC (the active ingredient in marijuana), has been approved by the FDA as medicine (marijuana isn't federally recognized as medicine). On average, the typical joint is 5% THC (ranges from 1-30%). Yet marijuana is considered a schedule I drug, while Marinol is a schedule III drug. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act#Schedule_I_controlled_substances) You can make much more profit off of pills than a plant.

The hypocrisy of it all is just astounding.