Discipline, Arts and INTPs

[xxkiriyamaxx]

Hello my fellows!
Today I come bearing a question for you all INTP artists. First of all:

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

I ask this one because I'm not a scripter and I barely even got any decent education on sequential art. All that I know is self taught and right now I'm working in a sequential art project. I have everything waaay too clear on my head, but when starting to work on the script and the plot and all that stuff, it just seems impossible. I don't know where to start and how to do much of the stuff. Does this happen to you as well or is just only me?

And the other question (related to the title) is:

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

This one is because in said graphic novel I have quite a lot of troubles being disciplined and making time to write and do it. In fact, I have trouble doing it by the day, because on night time I feel myself much more focused and willed to do something, rather than in daylight, because I get distracted with the internet or the people around me (I live with my family). Tell me, you think Is it me or is this an Ne related kind of stuff?

[GracefulJourney]

Interesting topic.

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

Always. Whenever I want to draw something, I always got my best plan in my mind. Then, after I hold a pencil, I'll discover, after scrabbling for an hour, that I cannot actualize the image in my mind. More than once I want a machine which can directly print out images from my brain.

I'm still learning to control my pencils...

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

No. I mean, really sitting and completing a picture is painful as hell to me. I don't know but it's hard for me to get to work something out. Urgh thanks to my P-ness.

But if I take drawing classes, given that the teacher doesn't force me into drawing anything, then I can take my time in that class and finishing arts like one picture per month. But still incomplete art work > complete art work. I pay My mum pays for the classes so it's rather unwise to waste her money anyway...

[durentu]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

This is basically information overload. what I do is I make a mind map to get all the info down out of my head. As mindmaps are in tree structure, it's now much easier to focus on certain areas and develop them further etc. (xmind is the software I use, free). Then I pick a branch and start writing in parts going from bottom up. I'll rearrange the parts later for story composition and editing.

Genius is in the editing.

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?
I usually play a little game. Something like, I'll see if I can write this chapter outline before the shadow reaches the other tree or something like that. I forgot who, but one sharpened a few pencils and didn't stop writing until all the pencils were used up.

Generally when doing work of this kind, I find these games helpful. I also remind myself that self discipline is cultivated. The starting rush of willpower is fleeting and therefore I only use that willpower to set the work environment. After that, discipline is a muscle and must keep exercising it. If I feel like quitting, I push myself 30 more minutes, until I can do it for 4 straight hours or something.

I'm not a writer. I'm a cellist. This is what I did to win competitions. At my peak, I practiced 2 week straight, 14 hours days, stopping only for bodily necessities. Nobody else did crazy things like that, which is why I won.

[OrionzRevenge]

I found it interesting how you refer to the graphic novel as a 'sequential art project', and further, your admission that said sequence is 'waaay too clear on my head' . I think this is more than just simple stage fright or fear of failure and stabs at the very heart of the INTP curse.

The Sequence was a logical problem that had to be resolved, yet for the INTP, proving that you can do it is all the fun. An INTP's notebook is replete with detailed plans and schemes that are never realized.

I'm almost willing to bet a new project is tugging at your time and interest even as I type this.

[Zetetic]

Hello my fellows!
Today I come bearing a question for you all INTP artists. First of all:

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

And the other question (related to the title) is:

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?



Ok #1 happens all the time and I am often unsatisfied with what I have drawn. I've tried many things to remedy this including forcing myself to draw straight from pen only and be "happy" with it. As if tricking myself into thinking something has absolute permanence will actually cause an increase in performance...

Tracing paper is a weakness of mine. Its so easy to pick out the good parts from a previous creation and attempt to mend the bad portions. Even then, I don't know what to do with all these patchwork frankendoodles laying around. Being birthed from such gimmicks makes me not take them seriously.

#2...I'm an undisciplined art hobbiest and am unqualified to answer. I draw/color what I wanted to accomplish and leave things incomplete.

[stuck]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

Well sure, but I also have faith that I can edit and redo anything a billion times.



How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

Get the ass in the seat. That is all. Don't stop after you're on a roll.

[1104]

is it lack of Se? i'm just starting to look into attitude functions, i think that explains it

though it works for other projects, i don't think forcing yourself to "just do it", is a good way to create art. do it when it strikes you, and stop when you're not feeling it anymore. practice in the off hours don't hurt, but when youre about to actually make something, it's not a matter of discipline.

i can identify with being unable to faithfully represent ideas in the real world.*

have you heard of the architect Maya Lin? she designed the Vietnam veteran's memorial. she is very intuitive, but has a clear process for communicating her ideas, saying "I begin by imagining an artwork verbally...I need to understand the artwork without giving it a specific materiality or solid form...Instead, I try to think about it as an idea without a shape."

and she does it very well. she stresses lack of deliberation, instead maintaining unwavering fidelity to intuition and the first "eureka" that conceived the project.

here's an excerpt from her book Boundaries:

The Wave Field existed first as a photograph then as a small model. I tried to stay close to the power of the original photos and models, but as the scale of the models increased, they began to lose the fluidity and poetry of those first images. I found it was impossible to predict or model or visualize its final shape until we actually built it; the piece literally changed, becoming too stiff with every increase in scale. I finally realized that I would not understand it or be able to predict if the form would work until I built it at its actual scale. After months of analyzing the form of a water wave-- how it begins and ends-- I just had to go out into the field and shape it.
Creating these works is never simply a process of replication. If the end result looks identical to the smaller-scale versions, then something has failed in the development. Architecture that looks like a blown-up version of its scale model has lost something in its translation.

*so youre setting yourself up for disappointment if you want to replicate the original design, which isn't the point anyway. instead, your focus should of course be in communicating the idea itself.

i recommend you at least take a look at Lin's book. hell, i think it's worth owning.

[Hexchild]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

Quite the opposite, usually. I tend to start out with a vague idea (anything from a basic concept to a general outline of the entire work) and see where it leads me. This allows me to easily adapt a project to suit my skills. I often don't end up with the same thing that I had in mind when starting a project, but the result can be interesting and worthwhile nonetheless.



How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

For long-term projects this is something I still have some trouble with. I've found that having lots of projects and often switching between them helps. Not having any kind of deadline also helps (I do have a plethora of unfinished projects, but some have actually reached some manner of conclusion).

I have identified my primary motivators as curiosity and boredom, and also concluded that achievement is an extremely weak (virtually nonexistent) motivator for me. It makes sense for me to model my creative process based on those traits.



This one is because in said graphic novel I have quite a lot of troubles being disciplined and making time to write and do it.

I guess I can relate to that. I'm working on a webcomic (http://www.drunkduck.com/Hexplane_This) and decided right from the start that I would avoid upholding a regular schedule. Updates have been sporadic, but at least they do happen.

[RedToe]

Hello my fellows!
Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

I begin with a -somewhat- clear idea, yet when I'm ready to start a project, I become extremely indecisive due to an array of "possibles" intruding my project-making thought process. Usually I begin anyway, but get stuck midway trying to decide if one dead rat is better than a checkerboard rat genocide....(current project problem) I've heard the asinine quote "just do it" too many times,SO I looked into a way to solve this stress that comes with creativity. The address below is an interesting talk on creativity and genius by Elizabeth Gilbert. It's worth the time if you have it...but I'm not sure if you INTPs can put 'self' aside for this one...


(www) dot ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius dot (html)

Sorry for no link I'm a noob.

[teleforce]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

i prefer keeping the plans vague and working out ideas with my hands already moving. i enjoy the spontaneity. planning puts too much emphasis on making a perfect finished product, and i don't like the pressure.


How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

thinking about what's expected of me.

[Digital Future]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

Not always. I have loads of ideas and anything could spark a new idea. Some ideas are more formed than others. For example I've had one in my head for the last few days...it's crystal clear...I can see every bit of detail in it. In fact I am currently debating as to whether I really want to try and replicate it outside of my head in fear that I might not do it complete justice.

Other times it's just a vague idea or a message I would like to communicate visually. In these instances I just put pen to paper and go with the flow.

There are other times when I have started drawing/painting with something specific in mind, however it took a completely different direction during the process...but the final result was still pleasing to my own eye.

I guess it's learning the art of being flexible.

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

Generally speaking I am not well disciplined. However art is a funny area, you just have to learn to go with the flow and pursue the things that really push your buttons. You might start something, but you don't necessarily have to finish it, it could look just as nice half finished.

In fact I haven't put pen to paper for some years now however I've recently decided to go back to the rawness that is sketching.

[2hype]

Hello my fellows!
Today I come bearing a question for you all INTP artists. First of all:

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?
No, I think I usually start with a vague idea. The process of doing the work helps the whole thing develop. I can't visualize it all in my head. If I could, I might have less interest in doing the work. But I don't know. That's just not the way my mind works.


How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

Deadlines help quite a bit. And usually getting started is the hardest part. Once I get started I can work for hours. If I really hate what I'm working on, I try to get started and just get it done so I don't have to bother with it again. I think "Just think how much better I will feel when I don't have this hanging over my head anymore."

[xxkiriyamaxx]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

This is basically information overload. what I do is I make a mind map to get all the info down out of my head. As mindmaps are in tree structure, it's now much easier to focus on certain areas and develop them further etc. (xmind is the software I use, free). Then I pick a branch and start writing in parts going from bottom up. I'll rearrange the parts later for story composition and editing.

Genius is in the editing.



Hey durentu, you think xmind is available for OSX??
I'm gonna google that once at home, because long time I have been searching for a "mind tree" software that allows me to go back and forward a story that branches over and over stuff.


How do you keep the discipline to make your art?
I usually play a little game. Something like, I'll see if I can write this chapter outline before the shadow reaches the other tree or something like that. I forgot who, but one sharpened a few pencils and didn't stop writing until all the pencils were used up.

Generally when doing work of this kind, I find these games helpful. I also remind myself that self discipline is cultivated. The starting rush of willpower is fleeting and therefore I only use that willpower to set the work environment. After that, discipline is a muscle and must keep exercising it. If I feel like quitting, I push myself 30 more minutes, until I can do it for 4 straight hours or something.

I'm not a writer. I'm a cellist. This is what I did to win competitions. At my peak, I practiced 2 week straight, 14 hours days, stopping only for bodily necessities. Nobody else did crazy things like that, which is why I won.

The game thing seems kinda nice since I feel like I'm "obligued" to do it, rather than having fun at doing it. Even though this is much more easy to do when doing a discipline (arts or sports) rather than when writing a script or a plot, I suppose I can do so with it.

[xxkiriyamaxx]

I found it interesting how you refer to the graphic novel as a 'sequential art project', and further, your admission that said sequence is 'waaay too clear on my head' . I think this is more than just simple stage fright or fear of failure and stabs at the very heart of the INTP curse.

The Sequence was a logical problem that had to be resolved, yet for the INTP, proving that you can do it is all the fun. An INTP's notebook is replete with detailed plans and schemes that are never realized.

I'm almost willing to bet a new project is tugging at your time and interest even as I type this.

Yes. I believe I have a tremendous fear at failure (I damn thee INTP curse!!) yet over the pass of the years (I have been working for 4 years in this shit) I've gained confidence on doing the things I'm trying, so much that I'm willing to share information about it rather than in the past when I thought my ideas weren't just any good. Gotta tell you, this may be the only thing extraverts are good at: making me come out of my writer closet. (yes, I'm making fun of extraverts!)

Rather than having a trouble with the sequence, I have a lot of troubles trying to portray something "believable" over a fantasy scenario, specially I have troubles trying to create believable drama (I damn thee yet again INTP curse!!). I know, fantasy gives plenty of space to magic and sort of, but I want that fantasy to have grounded and logical rules.

And yes, it tugs and drags me down into my own mind over and over an over again.

[pugspec]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

I feel that often, the problem here is like this: I have this tiny micro-scale model of exactly what I'm thinking of floating in a 3-D model in my brain, completely understood by me and comprehensive.

Then I try to express that, on paper for instance, with words, and I run into the problem of having so much information I don't know where to start. And then you have to wonder what should be included based on style, in terms of making it entertaining, pertinent, attractive and then worry about what is redundant.

What's the solution? Practice. The only solution. Peer feedback doesn't hurt, but peer feedback without repetitive practice is insufficient.

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

Everybody has a different strategy for discipline. Structure helps with discipline, because discipline is about forming habits, create the right structure for your behavior to become habitual, and eventually it will resemble discipline.

Also, experiment, some people work on their art bit by little bit all the time, some work on their art for 20 hours then don't look at it again for a week . . .

[Technical]

OP, that has happened before. Like, I can't draw a portrait worth a damn without a reference, and I've tried. Robots and aliens and FUTURE TANKS, I'll draw circles around y'all, but I can't draw a face to save my life unless I'm looking at it (Unless it's abstract/nonrealistic).

[md5fungi]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?


My mind is always clearer than what I can drain from it. If I'm writing, it never comes out the way I imagined it. When I'm writing music, I often know how I want it to sound, but it's never quite how I want it. The more I practice, the better I get at duplicating the sounds in my head. Practice and concentration help.

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

Good question. I'm terrible at this, and it really hurts my musical endeavors as well as my writing. I have so many incomplete pieces, far outnumbering the complete. One important thing I've learned is, never shrug off inspiration, because you never know if it's coming back or not. When I'm not feeling it, I just plain don't do it. It's different if I'm playing an instrument, because I can always practice etudes and my technical skills, but when it comes to writing a story/poem/music, it's difficult for me to do anything at all if uninspired.

[Arachne]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

Nope... I'm a Process person and always start an art project with little more in mind than the gist of the thing. Through the process, the image comes into focus.

I started a graphic novel last year and found it a more daunting and restrained task than most art making... even very different from creative writing. Didn't stick with it long enough to discover the flow of it. But talking about it makes me think that I should try it again without a script and see what unfolds. I guess what it boils down to is that I'm less good at visualizing from words than I am at finding the story within an image.

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

Well, I'm not very disciplined over the long term but I have a great deal of concentration and energy in the short term. So I work on projects that can be completed in one to four sittings or something that can be done in chunks.


OP, that has happened before. Like, I can't draw a portrait worth a damn without a reference, and I've tried. Robots and aliens and FUTURE TANKS, I'll draw circles around y'all, but I can't draw a face to save my life unless I'm looking at it (Unless it's abstract/nonrealistic).

I've always wondered why many perfectly good artists have trouble drawing faces. Faces have always been the most natural thing in the world for me to draw.

[Technical]

I've always wondered why many perfectly good artists have trouble drawing faces. Faces have always been the most natural thing in the world for me to draw.
I can draw them well (http://b9.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/01080/98/42/1080672489_l.jpg), with a reference.

[rokxal]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

Its an adaptive process. I'll have a vague concept, an idea, some words in the beginning. I'll scribble some shapes and expound on it a bit until some of the defining points are recognizable. New elements are introduced to satisfy/make the composition work. At this point, I'll use references if my mental understanding is ill-defined. If all works, the piece will usually get done as the concept and composition (the hardest parts) are detailed. If the last step fails, the piece gets scrapped all together.

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?
Do related activities. If I'm not up for a new piece, I'll do studies of any random subject matter. Also helps to get inspiration from other works via conceptart forums, tv/movies, novels.

[Spartan26]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

I ask this one because I'm not a scripter and I barely even got any decent education on sequential art. All that I know is self taught and right now I'm working in a sequential art project. I have everything waaay too clear on my head, but when starting to work on the script and the plot and all that stuff, it just seems impossible. I don't know where to start and how to do much of the stuff. Does this happen to you as well or is just only me?TV or feature film? If it's TV, most everything is based off models. Learn the model you're trying to re-create and then plug in the elements and go from there.

For film, break the process into smaller steps. I won't start on a script until I can at least, the very least answer the following questions.

1). What is the theme?
2). What's the premise?
3). What's the inciting incident?
4). What happens at the end of act i?
5). What happens at the end of act ii?
6). What's the climax?
7). what's the mid-point?
8). What's the hero's external motivation?
9). What's the hero's internal motivation?
10) Who are the other main characters (includes antagonist) & what are their goals?

I think familiarity of process will be your best compass. I don't like formal outlines or treatments but I tell you learning how to do beat sheets was arguably the single greatest element I've put to use in my work. I don't have a book to recommend on it but just getting in the habit of drawing out all the main characters' arc will really help things stay in order for you.


How do you keep the discipline to make your art?Work in a position that demeans your intelligence and underpays your skillset. :(

I'd say to love what you do. And by love I mean make sacrifices for your art/craft/field. Maybe think of what you're doing as being bigger than you. E.g. in music you may be a composer or play one instrument but consider the entire symphony or band. Think of the end. Imagine people's reaction to reading what you've done. Imagine showing your work to procure more opportunities. Be grateful for your opportunity to be creative. There may be times when you have to work long hours or spend time doing things you don't want to so it might help to consider your freedom might not always be there.

It's a little on the J side, and certainly I wouldn't suggest being super rigid but having a bit of a routine might help. Like if you sit down at your comp every evening at 8 PM and maybe check 3 websites, write a couple of friends, do a few pages of journaling or free writing, then by 9 o'clock your heads locked in to getting some work done. Sometimes it may suck cuz you'll feel like you have to do some ritual stuff before you can begin but I think you can kinda cue your mind to game mode every night w/out much work.

Also, one huge, HUGE thing that helped me is don't wait until you're at your computer to start to write. I don't know what your life is like but say every day at lunch take a little time to think about the things you want to work on when you get home. Think of plot points as you're driving around. Take even a few quick seconds to review some of the work you may've done the night before and let your subconscious work on it while you're doing whatever you have to get done. Avoid at all costs starting w/a blank sheet or comp screen. You should prolly have a few lines in your head that you can quickly write down the moment you open up the program. From there, momentum grows.

Yes, writing every day is good but that could just as easily be 9 at night and not noon or 4 PM. Not letting yourself off the hook to avoid doing nothing isn't so bad but remember there are plenty of ways you can improve yourself as an artist beside practicing the one discipline you're more versed in.

[dina]

I think I can express myself pretty well in writing, but unfortunately discipline is not a strong point for me. However, when I am determined to stay focused I turn both the TV and my computer off and try to be as concentrated as possible on reading or whatever else I may be doing. Of course, my biggest enemy is my own mind. It always slides into day-dreaming.Well anyway, I hope I'll be able to call myself disciplined one day!

[Jonah Davids]

I have no discipline, and my art (and everything) suffers as a result. It's really hard for me to stay focused even in the context of a single activity - making music, for example, I will tend to forget anything like a melody. I go away from it and then it's lost. Even getting to the point of creative effort now... it just seems pointless. Why start, since I never finish?




6). What's the climax?

See, I think the model just goes to show that most TV and film writers are males: There's almost always only one climax. :)

[xxkiriyamaxx]

See, I think the model just goes to show that most TV and film writers are males: There's almost always only one climax. :)

I'm LOL-ing with this one! :D

[rainfall]

How do you keep the discipline to make your art?


I troll for attention on net. True story.

[s0978]

So I woke up the other day and I think I had been dreaming about this thread. That someone had posted something like "I know my attention span for a project is limited and so I have to execute any idea I get quickly when I get them."

That stuck with me and has helped me stay focused for the past few.

It may have been a combo of these posts:


One important thing I've learned is, never shrug off inspiration, because you never know if it's coming back or not.



Well, I'm not very disciplined over the long term but I have a great deal of concentration and energy in the short term. So I work on projects that can be completed in one to four sittings or something that can be done in chunks.

Anyway, I guess the way I will be thinking about it to get more disciplined is: yes, inspiration is fleeting, and beyond that, it almost feels like falling out of love or it's a love that wasn't even given a chance, and so what a disappointment or what a missed opportunity if I don't play out this motherfucker.

As far as the first question goes- the one about facing difficulty about putting it on paper- I'd think it might often boil down to technical mastery.

[wivesandknives]

I'm not sure I'd even have discipline and art go together.

#1 I suppose, but that usually just means I need to try for a bit until I capture it.

#2 There's nothing in my art, or else my art is nothing; but I'd still say if you force creativity, it probably isn't going to be as good as it could be.

[Vaera]

Do you happen to have everything way too clear on your mind but once you try to put into paper, happen to be just extremely difficult?

Depends on the project/thesis. I work around the idea for days, toy with the possibilities and only after few days of mind boggling, researching and general brainstorming I'm ready for the pen and paper. The difficulty may vary, this is both very painful and delightful time for me. The clarity of the idea in my mind is usually very deceptive, but exciting at the same time since i enjoy the process of materializing my own thoughts. I am never sure how are first sketches gonna come up but, as i wrote, having clear guideline is the biggest aid one can have. Rest is up to my imagination.



How do you keep the discipline to make your art?

I have disciplined myself. My art is what i do, it's who I am, it's what I'm gonna do until the rest of my life and I learn the most in the process of making the art. Its all about breaching the initial procrastination and the sense of failure and impending doom (those are exact reasons for lack of discipline) and letting yourself be taken over by your work. From that point, you are free to make your own systems and implement them throughout your work, have fun and be happy and creative.

If all else fails due to the horrible and uninspiring projects, there are always deadlines and money.

[ryan_m_parr]

Depends on the project/thesis. I work around the idea for days, toy with the possibilities and only after few days of mind boggling, researching and general brainstorming I'm ready for the pen and paper. The difficulty may vary, this is both very painful and delightful time for me. The clarity of the idea in my mind is usually very deceptive, but exciting at the same time since i enjoy the process of materializing my own thoughts. I am never sure how are first sketches gonna come up but, as i wrote, having clear guideline is the biggest aid one can have. Rest is up to my imagination.




I have disciplined myself. My art is what i do, it's who I am, it's what I'm gonna do until the rest of my life and I learn the most in the process of making the art. Its all about breaching the initial procrastination and the sense of failure and impending doom (those are exact reasons for lack of discipline) and letting yourself be taken over by your work. From that point, you are free to make your own systems and implement them throughout your work, have fun and be happy and creative.

If all else fails due to the horrible and uninspiring projects, there are always deadlines and money.

What kind of art do you do exactly? Normally if someone was involved in art, they would specify what it is they do, exactly; would they not normally?

[Vaera]

What kind of art do you do exactly? Normally if someone was involved in art, they would specify what it is they do, exactly; would they not normally?

I'm soon-to-be graduate in Visual communication design (graphic design, web design, Interaction design, theory of art and design etc.) with a strong background in architecture. That covers the area of hand-made things, motion graphics, traditional design, advertising and branding and many more.