Racially motivated?

[bergenski]

I think this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090721/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly;_ylt=AlhiNIzHgg2of77zHtnpyBOmG78C;_ylu=X3oDMTNkczM2N2wwBGFzc2V0Ay9hcC8yMDA5MDcyMS9hcF9vbl9yZV91cy91c19oYXJ2YXJkX3NjaG9sYXJfZGlzb3JkZXJseQRjcG9zAzUEcG9zAzUEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBH) is a case of an elite scholar who really didn't like being questioned like he was a thug.

[Neville]

I think it's a case of someone seeing a clear opportunity to take advantage of a situation to further their agenda.

[Etherealsage]

Police say he refused to come outside to speak with an officer, who told him he was investigating a report of a break-in.

"Why, because I'm a black man in America?" Gates said, according to a police report written by Sgt. James Crowley.
Oh come on, how hard would it have been to say that it was his home? They're right, it wouldn't have happened with a white person, a white person would have said it was his home instead of pulling out the race card first and making the interaction confrontational.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I think the police were doing their job.

I do think racial profiling is a problem - but not all cops practice it.

In my experience cops seem to be "over the top" when it comes to being professional.

There are things unsaid in the report - so it is hard to say whether there has been a racial element involved, BUT reading the article - it seems the police were well within the limits of their authority.

Oh and Neville - I do not think it was a case where Gates was trying to further any agenda. He obviously thought his stature gave him certain entitlement to the presumption of innocence. Something a police office cannot afford to have when responding to a call.

[Spartan26]

I find it hard to believe that the police wouldn't know two things going in, 1) the name & address of the person who called it in and 2) any recent known occupants of said address - just in case some burglar wouldn't be able to pull a fast one. Given that it doesn't state if the residence had the prof listed as the owner, and that info might take longer to come by, I'd think a simple dmv reverse check of the address would've pulled up somebody's name. I think once the prof showed his driver's license and the officers had a chance to check its validity, the matter should've been put to bed.

[Jonah Davids]

I suspect racist cops trying to "teach that uppity negro a lesson" through minor harassment. But, knowing nothing other than this article, I have nothing to support my suspicion other than a general misanthropy and pessimism.

[80b]

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle between tyrannical racist cops and raving opportunistic advocate. Is there no audio recording of this? seems like it would be good to have.

[pangolin]

Strangely, when I read the title of this thread on the front page, I read it as 'radically motivated' and thought it would be something on how to get things done, as opposed to being on some over-hyped event, that, whilst probably actual racial profiling was involved, does not specifically warrant national attention.

[Jonah Davids]

I agree pangolin that it does not, but then neither does Michael Jackson Still Being Dead. Media attention is just messed up in general.

I also agree that no racial profiling was involved and withdraw my statement that the cop was racist. However he was definitely overstepping the bounds of his authority, and if it hadn't been such a high-profile victim it would just slip by unnoticed. A statistic, and one ignored in favor of today's political circus. Next up: Sarah Palin Has a Picnic!

[stuck]

The cop's version: man will not produce ID and gets belligerent. Man gets arrested.

The man's version: he shows ID and asks for badge number. Cop will not produce ID, instead arresting him.

Who's telling the truth? That should be all that matters for now.

[joft]

Oh come on, how hard would it have been to say that it was his home? They're right, it wouldn't have happened with a white person, a white person would have said it was his home instead of pulling out the race card first and making the interaction confrontational.

not very bright

a white person wouldn't play the race card because white people in this country's recent history haven't been oppressed, enslaved, segregated, jim crowed, etc etc etc.

did it occur to you that mr. snooty professor might actually have a long history of being racially profiled, or hearing the stories of his friends, relatives, students, other black men across america, etc, being profiled?

when a police officer approaches a white person it doesn't even occur to said person to wonder if they got the cop's attention because they are white. if you're black, and you're not breaking the law, and suddenly some cop is trying to boss you around, it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to wonder if the cop is suspicious of you because you're black, meanwhile some white frat boy (who goes on to become a cop himself after graduating) is date raping a girl on the other side of town, and some rich white accountant is helping goldman sachs avoid being taxed, and some white politician is voting to cut funding to the poor schools in town in order to avoid raising taxes on the mostly-white upper class, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc, but this cop doesn't have anything better to do other than power trip by bossing you around because you're under suspicion of using the back door to your own fucking house

[MotivesSeeker]

As I understand it, the man was already in his house. He produced ID. He was prolly very pissed off cause he had forgotten/lost his keys.

The true story is prolly somewhere in the middle. Still, I see no reason to arrest the man, they obvoisely didn't feel threatened (at least they never admitted as much). So why arrest him? To teach him a lesson about dissin cops?

[joft]

cops versions are always considered true by default unless there's a video camera around

cops will also protect each other and corroborate their stories

this same fucking story happens a thousand times a day across america. power tripping cops harass and assault people who aren't doing anything wrong. they taser them and arrest them, etc. bring them to the station. subject them to humiliation and loss of freedom and autonomy. usually drop the charges. if the injuries sustained by the person are egregious, there will be an "internal investigation" and possibly the cop will be put on paid leave.

FUCK the police

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-cswat05aug05,0,2905842.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines
http://www.justiceforsal.com/2006/08/6-months-still-no-justice-for-sal.html
http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/060803/swat.shtml
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026885.php#026885
http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/22/one-of-the-cops-that-jumped-dymond-milburn-named-2008-galveston-officer-of-the-year/

at least 50% of police are scum and at least another 40% are fucking cowards who protect their scum coworkers

[Limey]

Wow, I'm already sick of seeing the coverage on this, it's more annoying than Michael Jackson's freaky ass croaking.

I see mistakes on both sides from two people that seemingly just didn't hit it off, but the real rattler from my perspective; Why the fuck did the predident have to get involved in a bullshit thing like this. He should be way above that petty shit, christ, WTF next, Obama saves a cat in a tree before taking his wife out dancing waltz in top hat and tails.
Please, get to fucking work, you aren't being paid to show us your teeth, grinning like a fucking chump all the time.
Let's see some action on the world stage, make some deals, build some bridges, stop Hillary from insulting the Koreans with high school insults and stop getting involved with your friends scrapes with the law, (at least at press conferences - no comment would have done nicely).
I really don't care about the cop, or the professor, but I did think it was pretty cool that the cop turned out to teach and practice that class, (not just philosophize) that's priceless.

[dubbeltop]

Racially motivated?

Maybe....

[Jonah Davids]

Why the fuck did the predident have to get involved in a bullshit thing like this. He should be way above that petty shit, christ, WTF next, Obama saves a cat in a tree before taking his wife out dancing waltz in top hat and tails.
Please, get to fucking work, you aren't being paid to show us your teeth, grinning like a fucking chump all the time.

He was answering a direct question on the subject.

[Limey]

He was answering a direct question on the subject.

He failed to give a politically correct answer and got involved at a personal level without knowing the facts, in a topic that was far beneath the role of his office.
He should have given a bullshit answer, like the one he gave when asked if he regrets the "stupid" remark.

[stopharian]

He failed to give a politically correct answer and got involved at a personal level without knowing the facts, in a topic that was far beneath the role of his office.
He should have given a bullshit answer, like the one he gave when asked if he regrets the "stupid" remark.

The accused was a personal acquaintance of his....Apparently he has invited them both to the white house for a beer.

[starla]

did it occur to you that mr. snooty professor might actually have a long history of being racially profiled, or hearing the stories of his friends, relatives, students, other black men across america, etc, being profiled?

If Mr. Snooty Professor jumped to the conclusion that all cops are racially profiling him just because other cops have racially profiled other people in the past, then he's part of the problem. I'm not of the belief that reverse discrimination is OK.

My take:

Mr. Snooty Professor thought he wasn't getting the respect that his position entitled him to. Mr. Snooty Cop also thought he wasn't getting the respect that his position entitled him to. They both did their best to piss the other off, and succeeded. The cops had good reason to suspect a break-in at the house, and any normal person would have been grateful that the cops would come check it out if the neighbors reported someone they had never seen before trying to force their door open. The cops had no good reason to arrest the guy when all he did was mouth off and ask for a badge number.

[Kunstvoll Schwein]

Prosecutors dropped a disorderly conduct charge Tuesday against prominent black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr., who was arrested after forcing his way into his own house in what he and other blacks say was an outrageous but all-too-common example of how police treat them.

Police said Gates was arrested after he yelled at an officer, accused him of racial bias and refused to calm down after the officer demanded that Gates show him identification to prove he lived in the home.

Gates' lawyer, fellow Harvard scholar Charles Ogletree, said his client showed his driver's license and Harvard ID - both with his photos - and repeatedly asked for the name and badge number of the officer, who refused. He followed the officer onto the front porch as he left his house and was arrested there.

Am I reading the article wrong or was the guy arrested for disorderly conduct after breaking into the house, not for breaking into the house? The police knew after he showed them ID that he was the owner, but he became mouthy and indignant when they had just been investigating a complaint. The police were leaving when he followed them outside and possibly shouted at them some more, and they then arrested him for this behaviour. I don't see how racial profiling has anything to do with it. Is mouthing off at the fuzz disorderly conduct? I'd have thought so.

[Qfwfq]

not very bright

a white person wouldn't play the race card because white people in this country's recent history haven't been oppressed, enslaved, segregated, jim crowed, etc etc etc.

did it occur to you that mr. snooty professor might actually have a long history of being racially profiled, or hearing the stories of his friends, relatives, students, other black men across america, etc, being profiled?

when a police officer approaches a white person it doesn't even occur to said person to wonder if they got the cop's attention because they are white. if you're black, and you're not breaking the law, and suddenly some cop is trying to boss you around, it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to wonder if the cop is suspicious of you because you're black, meanwhile some white frat boy (who goes on to become a cop himself after graduating) is date raping a girl on the other side of town, and some rich white accountant is helping goldman sachs avoid being taxed, and some white politician is voting to cut funding to the poor schools in town in order to avoid raising taxes on the mostly-white upper class, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc, but this cop doesn't have anything better to do other than power trip by bossing you around because you're under suspicion of using the back door to your own fucking house

Exactly. It's nothing more than that. It's possible the cop is racist, but you don't know who the cop is, so he likely isn't.

We can't blame the african community for making these prejudice accusations. People seem to think it's all over, let bygones be bygones, there's nothing owed. But it hasn't even been 100 years since the civil war. The black are still in the same ghettos they've always been in, and they are still statistically at the bottom of the food chain. The government has NOT gone out of it's way to change these statistics.

Christ, they're starving to death in third world countries like animals and we don't even give a shit.

[LastRailway]

I haven't heard much of the story and I can't claim that I know how policemen in America behave, but most (all, in fact) of the policemen I've known are rude, uneducated, obnoxious, authoritative, in love with power, etc.

They arrested this man cause, what, he answered back, he yelled, he got pissed off? I mean, who the hell do they think they are? And since when is against the law to get pissed off no matter for what reason? (and even more if there is a reason and the reason is that you're being accused for breaking into your house).

Anyway, I don't know whether race was a factor, but I would think that yes, it was, it seems a bit obvious to me.

[Etherealsage]

Exactly. It's nothing more than that. It's possible the cop is racist, but you don't know who the cop is, so he likely isn't.

We can't blame the african community for making these prejudice accusations. People seem to think it's all over, let bygones be bygones, there's nothing owed. But it hasn't even been 100 years since the civil war. The black are still in the same ghettos they've always been in, and they are still statistically at the bottom of the food chain. The government has NOT gone out of it's way to change these statistics.
That's because it's a capitalist society. I'm certainly not at the top (nor am I pureblood white, but w/e), and I don't expect to be lifted up to middle class for my documented race (which also isn't white). You can't expect the people who haven't done anything wrong to pay a price they haven't put themselves in debt for, and you can't expect white people, collectively and as a group, to feel guilty for a crime the most, individually, never committed. That's racist in and of itself, actually. And really, as long as people keep looking for offense in something where none might be and lash out when there's a chance of it, however slim, they're the ones perpetuating the problem, not the person that refuses to walk on eggshells every time they're around a person of a specific race.

[Qfwfq]

You can't expect the people who haven't done anything wrong to pay a price they haven't put themselves in debt for, and you can't expect white people, collectively and as a group, to feel guilty for a crime the most, individually, never committed. That's racist in and of itself, actually.


Okay, so you believe nobody is responsible because they're all dead, and so there will be no reparations. Right?

:stupid:


I knew I wasn't arguing with an INTP. INTP see things the way it is.

[stopharian]

I haven't heard much of the story and I can't claim that I know how policemen in America behave, but most (all, in fact) of the policemen I've known are rude, uneducated, obnoxious, authoritative, in love with power, etc.

They arrested this man cause, what, he answered back, he yelled, he got pissed off? I mean, who the hell do they think they are? And since when is against the law to get pissed off no matter for what reason? (and even more if there is a reason and the reason is that you're being accused for breaking into your house).

Anyway, I don't know whether race was a factor, but I would think that yes, it was, it seems a bit obvious to me.



Well the fact is that he was breaking into his own house even he admits that. someone else saw him trying to break into his own house and reported it. The police went to the house and found him there. At which point he says this is racial profiling...

The house was being broken into ....he was the guy doing it... they didnt randomly pick him up. They found him at the spot where the crime was reported by someone else.

Yes it was his house, but instead of saying...hey thanks for being on your toes, I could have been robbed blind, hes says get the f out you racist bastards.

Turns out that the arresting officer is an expert instructor on teaching police how to be racially sensitive and the assisting officer is a black guy who says nothing was out of the ordinary.

Now everyone and their brother including the president have retracted their statements and apologized to the officer, except the professor who still claims racial profiling.

[Etherealsage]

Okay, so you believe nobody is responsible because they're all dead, and so there will be no reparations. Right?

:stupid:
Yes, the sooner people accept that they have to work themselves up from the bottom (and do), the sooner we'll all be happy. Funnily enough, they can work themselves up from the bottom now! Who knew?

My grandfather is from Guatemala and was pretty downtrodden in his home country. I don't expect reparations from the upper class there and/or government there for a hellish life I never had to live.

[Qfwfq]

Yes, the sooner people accept that they have to work themselves up from the bottom (and do), the sooner we'll all be happy. Funnily enough, they can work themselves up from the bottom now! Who knew?



Your idea of the self-made man is moronic. You disregard all laws of sociology because of "The american dream".

[In...TP]

A neighborhood argument, give and take. What's the neighbor's take?

[Etherealsage]

Your idea of the self-made man is moronic. You disregard all laws of sociology because of "The american dream".
Try to keep up with me here. I'm saying that it's up to the individual to find his or her own happiness. I am also saying that we can't wait around for some illusory justice when we can attain a happy enough life ourselves with work.

I come from a poor family, and I've lived some pretty shabby lifestyle while trying to live on my own. I know what it's like to live in the ghetto, not having enough money to even eat on a daily basis and pay rent on time. I've not had an easy life at all. I don't know what you are assuming about my life, but I have never been one to believe in the American dream. The difference between me and you is that I know that had I waited around to get paid for something that happened to my ancestors, I'd be hurting people who probably didn't do anything to me and my family. You find it so easy to say they owe you because you're not seeing their side. These are people we're dealing with. The might have a family, wife, kids, the works. Now if you took their money by force, what if they lost their house? Moved into the ghetto you hate? Subsequently got shot? Lost a child to illness that they otherwise might have saved? They're not wells of money you can simply dip into and take some of. they all need that for their own lives. Most of them aren't old money that thrive on the suffering of blacks like many seem to believe. They're normal people just trying to get to the next day and find their own happiness. Go ahead, go rob a white person because you're entitled if you're black. Beat them like they beat your ancestors. See if their suffering makes you feel any better. All you've done is perpetuate a cycle of hatred and a stereotype while you're at it, and probably beaten a decent person. You would be the bad guy now. Drop the self-righteousness, drop the anger, and get on with your own life. It's pathetic to watch you.

[LastRailway]

Now everyone and their brother including the president have retracted their statements and apologized to the officer, except the professor who still claims racial profiling.

Dunno, I guess we should know the full story (that we don't).

However, even if everything it's exactly as you say, what still remains is that we're not talking about a country that has never, ever been involved with racial profiling and we're not talking either about a profession famous for its non-racist professionals. And even if these two particular policemen were not racist at all, I'm sure the professor has received plenty of racist reactions in his life and I s'pose every American is aware of this, so I still don't get why they arrested him. I mean, ok, let's say they were not racist at all and he was too pissed off - were they surprised/offended that he thought his race was a factor or what? Makes no sense, to me at least.

[Qfwfq]

Try to keep up with me here. I'm saying that it's up to the individual to find his or her own happiness. I am also saying that we can't wait around for some illusory justice when we can attain a happy enough life ourselves with work.

And I'm telling you that you are either out of context, or you're simply wrong. You can't expect to enslave a race, and not pay reparations because your ancestors are dead. The liability is still there.


The difference between me and you is that I know that had I waited around to get paid for something that happened to my ancestors, I'd be hurting people who probably didn't do anything to me and my family. You find it so easy to say they owe you because you're not seeing their side.

Me? I'm not black. Why do you assume that the person arguing on their side must be black? Probably the same basis on which you form all your judgment.


These are people we're dealing with. The might have a family, wife, kids, the works. Now if you took their money by force, what if they lost their house? Moved into the ghetto you hate? Subsequently got shot? Lost a child to illness that they otherwise might have saved?
sounds like your concerns are a little hypocritical.


They're not wells of money you can simply dip into and take some of. they all need that for their own lives. Most of them aren't old money that thrive on the suffering of blacks like many seem to believe. They're normal people just trying to get to the next day and find their own happiness. Go ahead, go rob a white person because you're entitled if you're black. Beat them like they beat your ancestors. See if their suffering makes you feel any better.

Stop thinking of it on an individual basis. Please make an effort to think in a sociological or group context.




All you've done is perpetuate a cycle of hatred and a stereotype while you're at it, and probably beaten a decent person. You would be the bad guy now. Drop the self-righteousness, drop the anger, and get on with your own life. It's pathetic to watch you.
Christ sake, what are you talking about? I'm not black. To me this is evidence that you're prejudice and love throwing assumptions around. You're fuckin wrong.

[Neville]

ITT: White dudes pretend they know what it's like to be a minority. Better luck next time guys. The black guy saw a perfect opportunity to further his agenda. He took it. He did it. Big surprise, yes?

[Etherealsage]

Stop thinking of it on an individual basis. Please make an effort to think in a sociological or group context.
Stop thinking of it on a purely sociological/group context. Please make an effort to think in an individual basis.

It's pretty easy to throw your arguments into reverse about my thinking. My concerns aren't hypocritical, I simply find it objectionable that you'd prefer to simply transfer the suffering upon people who committed no crime. If your father killed an entire family, and then died, should you be expected to stand in prison for him? I mean, the liability is still there.

And I did use the phrase "if you are black" later on, so you can't say I simply assumed you were black. You should stop looking for race issues in me and stick to the argument.


ITT: White dudes pretend they know what it's like to be a minority. Better luck next time guys.
Read the part about being hispanic on record (you can't mark "white, not hispanic" if you're hispanic). I just don't like dragging my own race into the mix.

[pan_sonic_000]

We can't blame the african community for making these prejudice accusations.

To a certain extent, yes. But let's not kid ourselves that some African American's make completely baseless accusations of racial profiling as an opportunism tactic. That being the case, people are less likely to accept every claim as legitimate. They wonder (and with good reason) if this is another another canard being put forth for reasons beside valid outrage at being treated unfairly.

Sometimes I think the black community interprets this as apathy regarding their situation when, really, it's just being wise.




People seem to think it's all over, let bygones be bygones, there's nothing owed.

What, in your estimation, could white America do that would absolve us of our past crimes to an extent that it would satisfy the black community?



But it hasn't even been 100 years since the civil war. The black are still in the same ghettos they've always been in, and they are still statistically at the bottom of the food chain. The government has NOT gone out of it's way to change these statistics.

Is it the governments responsibility to change these statistics, though? Even if the government did did "go out of it's way" in an attempt to change these statistics, I am not sure that black culture would allow it to happen. There are tremendously lucrative industries for blacks that thrive by keeping many of them violent, uneducated and disconnected from opportunities that await them or any other citizen. In other words, the black community is just as much to blame for their lack of progress as is the government or what whites did in the past. The government can't fix what the black community does not want to be fixed, no matter how hard it tries.

[Qfwfq]

If your father killed an entire family, and then died, should you be expected to stand in prison for him? I mean, the liability is still there.
If there was still suffering in the family, yes I think my family should pay for their education or psychological problems.

You can't just fucking say it's all over and we owe nothing. It's god damn irresponsible.



And I did use the phrase "if you are black" later on, so you can't say I simply assumed you were black. You should stop looking for race issues in me and stick to the argument.

Ummm.... go read the last few sentences of your post bub.

[Resonance]

I think every time we pay attention to something like this, the problem perpetuates itself.

[/hypocrisy]

[Etherealsage]

If there was still suffering in the family, yes I think my family should pay for their education or psychological problems.

You can't just fucking say it's all over and we owe nothing. It's god damn irresponsible.
See, I would disagree unless you and your family knew what was going to happen and had some viable way of preventing it. On principle, you're going to agree with me on core issues.

[Qfwfq]

What, in your estimation, could white America do that would absolve us of our past crimes to an extent that it would satisfy the black community?


At the very least, I think blacks should only pay half a college tuition.

[Resonance]

At the very least, I think blacks should only pay half a college tuition.
Hmm, create more segregative rules. Sounds like a good plan to me!

[Etherealsage]

At the very least, I think blacks should only pay half a college tuition.
Weak. Now what if they get stright Cs and Ds in school?

Edit: Heh, and what Blairvoyant said.

[Qfwfq]

Fine, so there should be no reparations or punishment for international crimes. If you bomb a country, you don't have to rebuild it. I don't know a lot about WW2, but I know that Germany was in a financial rut owing for the reparations caused by the Nazis after destroying Europe's infrastructure.

You disagree with that?


I think blacks paying half a tuition is extremely reasonable.

[Resonance]

If the U.S. is going to do something about the fact that black people are still the majority living in ghettos, it's going to have to be something that profiles people based on the fact that they're living in ghettos, not the fact that they're black. This racial tension would be a good excuse to finally implement some sensible socialism in the place of these fascist policies like giving men the final say in abortion.


Fine, so there should be no reparations or punishment for international crimes. If you bomb a country, you don't have to rebuild it. I don't know a lot about WW2, but I know that Germany was in a financial rut owing for the reparations caused by the Nazis after destroying Europe's infrastructure.

You disagree with that?


I think blacks paying half a tuition is extremely reasonable.
Look. Are they blacks? Or are they fellow Americans?

[Etherealsage]

Fine, so there should be no reparations or punishment for international crimes. If you bomb a country, you don't have to rebuild it. I don't know a lot about WW2, but I know that Germany was in a financial rut owing for the reparations caused by the Nazis after destroying Europe's infrastructure.

You disagree with that?
Well, see, Germany was paying reparations for WWI too, and they were pretty much bled dry. It was one of the underlying causes for Hitler's rise to power and subsequently WWII. So really, Europe can only blame themselves for the situation in the first place.

Knowing from history what such vengeful debt causes, yes, I'd have to disagree with that.

[Qfwfq]

If the U.S. is going to do something about the fact that black people are still the majority living in ghettos, it's going to have to be something that profiles people based on the fact that they're living in ghettos, not the fact that they're black.


That makes sense. I think it would be reasonable to give bursaries specifically to blacks who don't have the financial means to go to school.

[pan_sonic_000]

C&D,

I am curious: do you think blacks can ever realize their full potential without any kind of reparations from whites and/or the U.S. Government?

[Resonance]

That makes sense. I think it would be reasonable to give bursaries specifically to blacks who don't have the financial means to go to school.
Why are you so fixated on the school system?

[Qfwfq]

C&D,

I am curious: do you think blacks can ever realize their full potential without any kind of reparations from whites and/or the U.S. Government?

I believe it would take a long time for a sociological factor like this to absolve itself. I don't think they should have to wait this long.




Why are you so fixate on the school system Education is a logical way to elevate a groups social status and income, two things of which they were deprived.

[turt]

And I'm telling you that you are either out of context, or you're simply wrong. You can't expect to enslave a race, and not pay reparations because your ancestors are dead. The liability is still there.


How many "white" people actually have ancestors that had slaves? Most of America's "white race" came to America after slavery was abolished. Immigrants were treated barely if at all better than the "African American Race" at the time.

Should the Africans that captured people from other tribes for slavery be expected to pay too?

We wouldn't have any problems if people could let go of the concept of race and view each other as other humans.

[Resonance]

Education is a logical way to elevate a groups social status and income, two things of which they were deprived.
Education is passé and culturally toxic; I can expound on these if you've never heard before.

In addition, there have been bursaries for young black people to go to higher education for decades. I'm not sure if you're aware of those.

I'll repeat: do you wish to view African Americans as a separate group? Or are they Americans just like everyone else?

[Qfwfq]

Education is passé and culturally toxic; I can expound on these if you've never heard before.

In addition, there have been bursaries for young black people to go to higher education for decades. I'm not sure if you're aware of those.
No, I never heard of these in the USA. Obviously it isn't very popular nor effective.


I'll repeat: do you wish to view African Americans as a separate group? Or are they Americans just like everyone else?
This is a very blunt question that you can use as a brush to paint my opinion on every issue.

[earwax]

I think blacks paying half a tuition is extremely reasonable.
What if they're only half black? Should they only get a 25% cut on the tuition?

[Etherealsage]

No, I never heard of these in the USA. Obviously it isn't very popular nor effective.
I went to a predominantly black high school. For the record, teachers made a point to tell the kids every chance they could. They also had entire presentations on how to afford tuition. So it's not for a lack of awareness.

[Resonance]

No, I never heard of these in the USA. Obviously it isn't very popular nor effective.
Well, I'm glad you understand. Do you have any better suggestions, then?


This is a very blunt question that you can use as a brush to paint my opinion on every issue.
Treating black people as a separate group in order to 'integrate' them into 'white society' is like burning down all the rainforests to prevent logging.

[MacGuffin]

My super-conspiracy theory:

Prof. Gates wanted to bring attention to the supposed racist tactics of the Cambridge police. So he concocted a scheme where he'd pretend to break into his own home while an "innocent bystander" called to report the break in. When the cops showed up, Prof. Gates refuses to cooperate and they eventually arrest him, showing their racism.








I don't actually believe this, I just wanted to be on record with it before someone on Fox News floats this hypothetical.

[Qfwfq]

Well, I'm glad you understand. Do you have any better suggestions, then? Yes, make them more effective/popular to the point that people actually know about it.



Treating black people as a separate group in order to 'integrate' them into 'white society' is like burning down all the rainforests to prevent logging.

no it's not.

[Qfwfq]

I went to a predominantly black high school. Teachers made a point to tell the kids every chance they could. They also had entire presentations on how to afford tuition.That's good, but not enough in the context of slavery.

[Resonance]

Yes, make them more effective/popular to the point that people actually know about it.
You're not black, if the pic you posted is anything to go by, so why would you even know?


no it's not.
Yes it is.

[Limey]

There's been a spate of cheesy stage musicals lately, what with the Octomom musical playing.

I can't wait until they do the MIT Prof play, they should get Kevin Bacon to play the professor (with blackface, for dramatic effect) He can really harp on the fact that he walks with a cane, while making a social commentary on non-socialized healthcare for the privileged, then cast it aside and go flim-flamming and jimmy stepping down the stage sideways.

The city chief of police, state governor and president will all be played by black men...

[msg_v2]

I think the police probably just harassed the guy and abused their power.

That being said, I'm really tired of all these stories about racial controversies. I don't really give a damn about the Cambridge Police department. I do kinda care about health care.

[bergenski]

Well, it's pretty obvious the professor was at fault.

[stopharian]

I dont know if the profesor was at fault .....the whole thing sounds like a pile of assholes...

I dont think race was involved though. Cops are assholes to anyone who sass their power.

[bergenski]

I find it funny that the half-black intelligentsia has no problems playing the victimization perspective. I wonder if his response would have been half as virulant if he had been approached by a black policeman. I guess he didn't get to Martin Luther King's efforts in his education.

[Limey]

Now, during beers, if the cop can just avoid saying "you guys" if the other two happen to choose the same brand, be it colt, malt, or other.

[80b]

So... the president is having both out for beers, as if he is an unbiased third party after he explicitly said the police officers actions were "stupid" ?

... though i do wonder what kind of beer best encompasses working class, academic, and politician..

[Resonance]

So... the president is having both out for beers, as if he is an unbiased third party after he explicitly said the police officers actions were "stupid" ?

... though i do wonder what kind of beer best encompasses working class, academic, and politician..
He calls a police officer "yo mama" and resists arrest... all from the comfort of his own home.

The president once gave him a call, just to see how he was doing.

He's a university professor, a black rights activist, and in his spare time, a clown.

He is the most interesting man in the world.

"I don't always drink beer, nigga, but when I do, nigga it's Dos Equis or no equis ynowtimsain nigga."

[80b]

He calls a police officer "yo mama" and resists arrest... all from the comfort of his own home.

The president once gave him a call, just to see how he was doing.

He's a university professor, a black rights activist, and in his spare time, a clown.

He is the most interesting man in the world.

"I don't always drink beer, nigga, but when I do, nigga it's Dos Equis or no equis ynowtimsain nigga."

... and right on cue Cnn's coverage of beer choice. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/07/29/bee-choice-at-obama-meeting-touches-off-new-debate/) Maybe they should just go with PBR... it has both working class and hipster appeal, and it's American owned.

Really, as staged as it is in the first place, maybe they should just go with clear plastic cups and not say what their drinking... or Red Solo Cups... after all, Solo cups are made in Obama's homestate of Illinois. It'd be like a stimulus...

[ThatGirl]

The article was very dramatically written within perspective shifts. The antagonist vs protagonist. The only part that was not specific in trying to point a finger was this:


He followed the officer onto the front porch as he left his house and was arrested there.

The police officer is "Leaving the house" the guy follows him out.......

What the police officer just changes his mind and arrests the guy?

I am speculating the, the already over dramatic "Rosa Parks" wasn't so eager to just drop it. What happened, idk, but the logical sequence, I think, supports that the police officer was not simply making arrests because the guy was black.

[Jonah Davids]

If you read the testimonies, Officer Crowley invited Gates to come talk outside. And then arrested him.

Since you can't arrest someone on a trumped-up charge in their own home but you sure can "in public," what better way to make it happen than change the venue to a "public" one?

[Unapplied Knowledge]

If you read the testimonies, Officer Crowley invited Gates to come talk outside. And then arrested him.

Since you can't arrest someone on a trumped-up charge in their own home but you sure can "in public," what better way to make it happen than change the venue to a "public" one?

Whether that's true or not, law enforcement officers ARE taught to utilize tricks like that (that is, tricks which fool people, even smart people, into forfeiting their rights). Due to the (necessary) restrictions placed upon their ability to act, POs are trained to be excellent manipulators of people and their rights, though some are better than others, some agree to and use these practices more than others. It's neither technically illegal nor morally unsound, in my opinion (because ultimately, the individual consents by not utilizing their intelligence and/or not developing prior knowledge of the legal system in which they live), but it is manipulative.

[Jonah Davids]

I consider it morally unsound, and blaming someone for "not utilizing their intelligence" to prevent it is really no better than blaming the rape victim for not having a gun and blowing the guy's head off or knowing Kung Fu or otherwise "utilizing their intelligence and/or knowledge" to prevent it. The fault lies on the manipulative PO.S.

[Unapplied Knowledge]

I consider it morally unsound, and blaming someone for "not utilizing their intelligence" to prevent it is really no better than blaming the rape victim for not having a gun and blowing the guy's head off or knowing Kung Fu or otherwise "utilizing their intelligence and/or knowledge" to prevent it. The fault lies on the manipulative PO.S.

I disagree, because in the case of the rape and other, similar things, that's forced coercion. There is no choice or consent on the part of the victim.

In the case of manipulation, there is always the choice to respond to it negatively, and that choice is assisted by both knowledge and wisdom. Ultimately, the victim in any such manipulation is really only a victim to his/her own self.

In a society built around rights and laws, you have the responsibility to know your rights and know the law if you wish full protection of them and full utility from the law--or, at the very least, friends or hired individuals that know and can help you with such matters. There is one golden rule even a simpleton can follow in regards to matters of the law: sit there and shut up until you are represented by a specialist in the law. There is no incrimination in silence and inaction.

Fault in the matter of choice always falls on the decision-maker, so long as that person is free to make the decision. If manipulation was morally unsound, we would be guilty of immorality any time we tried to sway someone to a decision that benefits the self, no matter whether it actually harms that person or not. That's not the same as putting a knife to someone's throat and engaging in a bit of the ol' in-out, in-out.

[Jonah Davids]

Some might argue that there is always choice, just that one choice might be significantly less desirable than the others. A rape victim could choose to resist, and maybe die, but there's the option all the same. Gates could choose to just ignore the whole thing and let it slide... suck it up like a good boy, take police humiliation up the ass, but hey it's a choice too. But undesirable, and in this case the cop didn't exactly suggest that he would be an asshat enough to arrest the man. He had no legal grounds to arrest him which is, of course, why there was no charges. And if Gates wasn't who he was, none of this would have been the national news. Just another example of another black man being the easy victim of police abuse of authority.

As has been pointed out, it happens daily, and we never hear about it. We need people to make us hear about it. So on that, far from blaming Gates for not shutting up and for making that poor cop just arrest him, I laud him for bringing it to public attention. You can't very well expect everyone to be aware of this kind of thing if no one talks about it, if everyone is merely silent and inactive.

[Unapplied Knowledge]

*snip for length*

You seem to fail to differentiate in your argument between choice under manipulation (which is still a free choice if you apply your mind adequately, as failure to consent to the manipulation will result in nothing) as compared to choice under coercion (which isn't really much of a choice, given that things will be enacted against your desires directly), whether that's actually your stance or not.

I do agree on two accounts, however: That there were no real grounds for arrest, though Gates did allow the officer (or perhaps his feelings) to manipulate him into a position where he could exercise his authority (you should ALWAYS say no to an 'offer' like that.. again, manipulation vs coercion.. no foul consequences for saying no).

The second: Gates was right to bring this improper use of law enforcement power to attention and to demonstrate the knowledge of his rights.

It is a shame he didn't handle the situation properly.. that is, to not let his feelings influence him overly and refuse to let himself be manipulated into a situation where his rights could be manipulated. If Gates makes the proper choice of declining the officer's 'invitation', there is no issue here. If the officer never uses the trained tactic to exercise his authority, there is no issue here. Ultimately, neither are in the wrong morally; however, both are wrong in their poor decision-making.