Chess vs. INTP

[Qfwfq]

How many INTPs here play chess? I know there's gotta be plenty. If it turns out that we're many, then I think we should play eachother. I looooooove chess. I play at around a 1520 rating.

So in this thread, we can post puzzles, coordinate for games, talk trash and whatever else.

Here's a game I was playing against a program called Crafty 19.3. Apparently this plays at a 2800 rating. I can hold my own in developpement and into mid game, but I have not beaten it a single time. Here's our game, I can't find a way to beat him from here... he seems to beat me on the king side in the next 5+ moves no matter what I do:stupid: . I need some help folks:happpy: .


White(me) to move.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/Dee_from_ott/dillomvscrafty.jpg

[Hustler]

How did you get to this position?

EDIT: Are black and white reversed here? Like, you're black but it's displayed as white?

EDIT: Never mind.

[bass_n_treble]

b4, forcing the Knight to move or the a lane to open after a pawn capture
Knight to f3, putting pressure on the pawn in the center

I don't know, I don't want to criticize your game, because it's not fair but I do see problems that could've been avoided from your opener just based on this midgame

[Qfwfq]

b4, forcing the Knight to move or the a lane to open after a pawn capture
Knight to f3, putting pressure on the pawn in the center

I don't know, I don't want to criticize your game, because it's not fair but I do see problems that could've been avoided from your opener just based on this midgame

Go ahead and criticize it, I'm not a pro lol. What do you think is the biggest problem with the position? Is it that my King pawn wasn't advanced?

[Hustler]

Go ahead and criticize it, I'm not a pro lol. What do you think is the biggest problem with the position? Is it that my King pawn wasn't advanced?

1. You traded the wrong bishop at some point.

2. Your queen is doing nothing for you.

3. Your bishop is kind of in the way of pawn development

4. What you said.

Honestly, I don't see any great moves for you. Maybe something asinine like Nc5? (no, that's terrible) Or something ballsy like f4? a4? Bc5? I think you were fucked from before this, though.

[SalubriousBeing]

I love chess and am probably around your level of play. I wish I could play more, but it's hard to find people to play with and I find online chess somewhat unsatisfying. Oh, and to reiterate what others were saying, you need to set yourself up with better position.

[bass_n_treble]

Well, there should be no excuse for both your middle pawns to not be developed by say, the fourth move of the game... I use knights to do most of the damage in the beginning, to later sacrifice for advantageous position, but if you still have them this late in the game, they really should be on the other side of the board. Your pawns weren't pressuring anything early on, allowing the queen to be all the way up your shit in mid-game, and your own pieces are blocking you from preventing any further damage.

If you are not very good with openers, play as black and mimic white's moves for a few games, you'll begin to see the 'shapes' on the board earlier on.

[Autumn]

Yeah yeah chess, whatever....
But is there anyone into Go?!

[Jonah Davids]

I like shot-glass chess. That suits my level of play pretty well.

[Qfwfq]

Well, there should be no excuse for both your middle pawns to not be developed by say, the fourth move of the game... I use knights to do most of the damage in the beginning, to later sacrifice for advantageous position, but if you still have them this late in the game, they really should be on the other side of the board. Your pawns weren't pressuring anything early on, allowing the queen to be all the way up your shit in mid-game, and your own pieces are blocking you from preventing any further damage.

If you are not very good with openers, play as black and mimic white's moves for a few games, you'll begin to see the 'shapes' on the board earlier on.

Yeah... you're right. I guess I was trying something different to take him out of the book. Should have developped those pawns anyway though. I actually do know several openings, particularly the king pawn lines. Guess theres always some basic rules to follow though.


I like shot-glass chess. That suits my level of play pretty well.

haha I have a set!


1. You traded the wrong bishop at some point.

2. Your queen is doing nothing for you.

3. Your bishop is kind of in the way of pawn development

4. What you said.

Honestly, I don't see any great moves for you. Maybe something asinine like Nc5? (no, that's terrible) Or something ballsy like f4? a4? Bc5? I think you were fucked from before this, though.

I think f4 is good...

[Qfwfq]

okay so I chose to Take Hustler's f4 line. The 2 pawns were traded, and the bishop & knight are now gone. I lined my bottom rook up, and he brought back his queen (defending his pawn/attacking my knight). It looks interesting at this point... far from dead imo.


White to move
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/Dee_from_ott/F4.jpg

I like Knight f6, because it forces his bishop to trade(my King is weak on the diagonals). Then maybe I can center my last knight.

[Hexchild]

I suck at chess. I'm good at coming up with strategies in general, but with chess I usually miss some potential moves at some point (mine or theirs, or both), which almost always leads to disaster.

[rhuarch]

I suck at chess. I'm good at coming up with strategies in general, but with chess I usually miss some potential moves at some point (mine or theirs, or both), which almost always leads to disaster.

Same problem for me. Although at least half of that is that I never bothered to learn anything more than the basic rules.

[md5fungi]

Yeah yeah chess, whatever....
But is there anyone into Go?!

This one day, I was like, I'm going to fucking play Go, because all these geniuses in these random movies play it. So a friend and I got a Go board, and we went at it for like a month, and it's like the sickest game ever.

I'm pretty bad at it, but it would be cool to get back into it.

[Ratatosk]

Yeah yeah chess, whatever....
But is there anyone into Go?!<-------------

Haven't really played in a couple of months, though

[Qfwfq]

This one day, I was like, I'm going to fucking play Go, because all these geniuses in these random movies play it. So a friend and I got a Go board, and we went at it for like a month, and it's like the sickest game ever.

I'm pretty bad at it, but it would be cool to get back into it.

What is Go?

[rhinosaur]

What is Go?

http://www.google.com/

[Ratatosk]

That's a pretty cool website.

[Qfwfq]

Is that one a them there search engines I been hearin' bout??

[Jonah Davids]

I can never get into Go. I just don't have patience any time someone tries to explain the rules. It has this reputation as being super-awesome, but then so does World of Warcraft, and I refuse to get into that too. I like Chess because although it's abstract, there's that feeling of armies going against each other that I just don't see in moving black and white dots around.

[C.J.Woolf]

http://www.google.com/

That's a pretty cool website.
Is that the site where you ogle go players? :grin:

[Scott]

Go is awesome. But I never get to play so I'm not very good. I like chess too though... My interest just depends on whether I care enough in the moment to think through everything and play well (well, as well as I can play at least).

[Jonah Davids]

After you're done with Chess you can try stacking the pawns on top of each other and the rooks. It's really fun. You can't do that with Go because the pieces are all round. TAKE THAT Go.

[nonrandian]

okay so I chose to Take Hustler's f4 line. The 2 pawns were traded, and the bishop & knight are now gone. I lined my bottom rook up, and he brought back his queen (defending his pawn/attacking my knight). It looks interesting at this point... far from dead imo.


White to move
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/Dee_from_ott/F4.jpg

I like Knight f6, because it forces his bishop to trade(my King is weak on the diagonals). Then maybe I can center my last knight.

I'm not too great at chess but i'll try. First, I'm not sure i would have traded that bishop for a knight before. The white-white bishop is a powerful piece.

Anyway i would probably try knight to c5 rather than f6. His rooks and queen are more of a problem than his bishop, really. c5 will force his queen to move.

From there he will likely either move his queen to e7 which will allow you to bring your knights out to play since it will shrink his offense, or he will take your knight at d2 with is queen which gives you an a pretty mean set-up with your rooks/queen while still holding a decent defense.

[Hustler]

okay so I chose to Take Hustler's f4 line. The 2 pawns were traded, and the bishop & knight are now gone. I lined my bottom rook up, and he brought back his queen (defending his pawn/attacking my knight). It looks interesting at this point... far from dead imo.


White to move
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/Dee_from_ott/F4.jpg

I like Knight f6, because it forces his bishop to trade(my King is weak on the diagonals). Then maybe I can center my last knight.

The only trouble with Nf6 is after BxN and RxB, QxN. But, that does leave Rxg6 or Rxf7 as a possibilities. You're going to pressure his king hard, and get one or two pawns, but whether it makes up for the loss of your knight isn't something I can tell.

[md5fungi]

After you're done with Chess you can try stacking the pawns on top of each other and the rooks. It's really fun. You can't do that with Go because the pieces are all round. TAKE THAT Go.

Here's my take on Go and Chess.

You show a nerd Chess, they know it's fucking awesome. That's the way Chess is, at least here in the U.S. It's the king of the nerdy mind games. Everyone knows this. Common knowledge.

Go is less known, at least where I live. People have no idea what it is. You show them a Go board, and they are like "Oh. 'Cool.' " What enjoyment could a wooden gridded board with white and black stones provide?

You really have to play Go to experience the logical orgasm that it provides. The endgame complexity is boggling (It should be called "Boggle", unlike Boggle, which while being a fairly fun word game is poorly named). Yeah. I have an erection now.

Play Go.

[MellowMarcello]

The only trouble with Nf6 is after BxN and RxB, QxN. But, that does leave Rxg6 or Rxf7 as a possibilities. You're going to pressure his king hard, and get one or two pawns, but whether it makes up for the loss of your knight isn't something I can tell.

Hello my bipedalled friends...

After Rxf7 black has to resign himself to a draw with Rxf7 and allow white a perpetual check. Black would have to play Kg7 white could follow up with Ne4 and try to try to compensate with a structurally worse position with trying to focus on black's weak f6 square.

[MellowMarcello]

Look...I think white has the worse position here due to the isolated e pawn and more open king position. If it goes to an endgame white is busted. But...who knows...maybe the computer will misevaluate and overweight white's temporary initiative after Nf6ch-Bxf6-Rxf6 and give you the perpetual check draw...sometimes chess computers can be dumb like that.

[SalubriousBeing]

Here's my take on Go and Chess.

You show a nerd Chess, they know it's fucking awesome. That's the way Chess is, at least here in the U.S. It's the king of the nerdy mind games. Everyone knows this. Common knowledge.

Go is less known, at least where I live. People have no idea what it is. You show them a Go board, and they are like "Oh. 'Cool.' " What enjoyment could a wooden gridded board with white and black stones provide?

You really have to play Go to experience the logical orgasm that it provides. The endgame complexity is boggling (It should be called "Boggle", unlike Boggle, which while being a fairly fun word game is poorly named). Yeah. I have an erection now.

Play Go.

Why do you keep trying to hijack this thread and talk about Go? Couldn't you start your own thread?

[md5fungi]

Why do you keep trying to hijack this thread and talk about Go? Couldn't you start your own thread?

I was replying to two people's posts about it, and didn't plan on bringing up the subject again.

[repo_man]

Would it make sense to bring the other knight into the attack through f3 and h4?

[MellowMarcello]

Would it make sense to bring the other knight into the attack through f3 and h4?

Black has a multitude of options against that...he can play pawn to b6 and if then Nh4 he can always play Ne5 and cover everything...f7 and g6.

If Nf3 I think black and exchange pawns on the queenside and then followup and play Qe6 and force white into an inferior ending...since if white chooses to keep the queens on for attacking purposes black now released from the pin can play pawn to f5 and expose the awkwardness of white's pieces on the kingside.

[rokxal]

I used to play chess before switching to GO (now an avid player). My understanding is that chess is very tactic and opening oriented (learning many openings/variations and reading lines of play). Go is played on a much larger board (19x19) however so the number of openings and lines of play increase. Since the possibility space is larger, excluding symmetries and such, one has many more choices to make, hence a wider and deeper decision tree. Because of this, GO's mid-game tends to become longer and more varied than Chess. (also longer games)

Tactics as seen in Chess may come down to reading multiple lines of play where material advantage plays a larger role in victory. Victory in GO is more of a balance between strategic position and tactics. One's overall position of stones allows for greater potential in global development due to the size of the board. Tactics provide local development and settlement. In a sense, local tactics in GO may win battles but lose the war if the final positional disadvantage is too great.

One last thing on tactical vs strategic position. I treat tactical play as a left brained activity since reading lines of play occurs sequentially. In Chess, tactical skill play win games as the lines of play are limited by the size of the board and the value of pieces (also why serial algorithms are so good at evaluating Chess positions as a cost function). In GO, the width and depth of the decision tree make such an evaluation function difficult. A left brain or computer algorithm has a difficult time assigning values to individual or groups of stones as victory is not determined by a checkmate or leaf node in the decision tree but as the physical territory of your surrounding stones and the capture/prisoners. Here, the right brain comes to fruition as it can intuitively suggest strong lines of play (via shape or space) and evaluate the global position without having the left brain serialize every possible move. Some GO players treat this as a creative exercise where one "imagines" the best possible outcome without explicitly evaluating a cost function. Hence, the current GO algorithms (tree based montecarlo, so not learning/trained neuro-networks) have trouble against a strong amateur player whereas chess computer deep blue in the 90's pwned kasprov...

So to sum it up:
Chess: very tactics oriented, left brain oriented
GO: balanced tactics and strategic positioning, left/right brain oriented