The Pope's Swiss guard

[garak]

http://www.inforoma.it/feature.php?lookup=swiss
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/va-swiss.html


Every year on May 6, anniversary of the Sack of Rome, the Swiss Guards renew their vows of allegiance in the Courtyard of San Damaso inside the Vatican. In a colorful ceremony, new recruits kneel down, raise three fingers of their right hand to symbolize the Trinity and swear to serve the Pope "to the death".

How is that consistent with catholicism? Why would these dozens of guards swear to die, just to save one guy? How can the Pope be so pretentious as to value his own life more than all of theirs?

[garak]

As a side note:

http://www.inforoma.it/img/swiss3.jpg

When in ceremonial 16th century uniform, they keep their firearms in guard boxes nearby.

Am I the only one who thinks it would be hilarious to see one of these dorky looking dudes run to grab a gun and proceed to bust a cap in someone's ass, all while dressed as a party favor?

[Shai Gar]

he isnt christian.. i think you will find a lot of catholics who differentiate between christianity (a religion of mercy and love) and catholicism

[Shai Gar]

As a side note:

http://www.inforoma.it/img/swiss3.jpg


Am I the only one who thinks it would be hilarious to see one of these dorky looking dudes run to grab a gun and proceed to bust a cap in someone's ass, all while dressed as a party favor?
you are not the only guy who thinks that.. personally i think that it is pathetic to wear a uniform like this when the only for the tradition was that it looked fashionable at some point in history. and we all know that fashions are the very opposite of traditions, fickle.

[shum]

he isnt christian.. i think you will find a lot of catholics who differentiate between christianity (a religion of mercy and love) and catholicism

scuse me sir, i wish to hear more.

[Edmond Zedo]

I'm sure he has good bowstaff skills too.

[mgb]

It makes them recognizable.

Since the Vatican is a sovereign state, it needs an army, and this is the army. Also, it's not like the Pope is the safest job in the world.

And killing isn't out of line for Christians or Catholicism. Remember the Old Testement? The Crusades? The Inquisition? Hell, anti-abortionists kill doctors to prevent more abortions from happening.

[garak]

It makes them recognizable.

Since the Vatican is a sovereign state, it needs an army, and this is the army. Also, it's not like the Pope is the safest job in the world.

And killing isn't out of line for Christians or Catholicism. Remember the Old Testement? The Crusades? The Inquisition? Hell, anti-abortionists kill doctors to prevent more abortions from happening.
I think every question you answered was one that I didn't ask. :D

[Pedro_The_Lion]

All I know is I want a Pope-mobile with a swiss guard sniper on top.

[mgb]

Ok, let's put it this way.

US President. 300 million people. Pretty big target. Important to the secular world.

Pope. 1 Billion. Closest person on Earth to God. Decision impact most of the world as well. Most important person in religious world. Huge target. Always has been. Swiss Guard is his Secret Service.

[garak]

Ok, let's put it this way.

US President. 300 million people. Pretty big target. Important to the secular world.

Pope. 1 Billion. Closest person on Earth to God. Decision impact most of the world as well. Most important person in religious world. Huge target. Always has been. Swiss Guard is his Secret Service.
Well I could have told you all of that. What I don't get is why it seems to contradict their teachings and yet they see no problem with it.

[mgb]

Well I could have told you all of that. What I don't get is why it seems to contradict their teachings and yet they see no problem with it.

But it doesn't. Catholic dogma indicates the importance of the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. While no one is more important than Christ, certainly the person on Earth closest to Christ deserves the proper protection. And let's face facts. All but a few popes have been really old and quite unable to protect themselves.

For the guards, to lay down their lives in the protection of God's most loyal servant must truly be an honour.

I might be missing the teachings you are talking about though, so fill me in.

[garak]

But it doesn't. Catholic dogma indicates the importance of the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. While no one is more important than Christ, certainly the person on Earth closest to Christ deserves the proper protection. And let's face facts. All but a few popes have been really old and quite unable to protect themselves.

For the guards, to lay down their lives in the protection of God's most loyal servant must truly be an honour.

I might be missing the teachings you are talking about though, so fill me in.
Maybe that makes sense.

What I'm referring to is their stance that "all life is sacred" and how they praise the pope for being so modest and humble by doing all of these great things blah blah blah, yet he's willing to let dozens of other people die just so he (one guy) can live.

[mgb]

Maybe that makes sense.

What I'm referring to is their stance that "all life is sacred" and how they praise the pope for being so modest and humble by doing all of these great things blah blah blah, yet he's willing to let dozens of other people die just so he (one guy) can live.

They choose to die to save him.

And there is a long history of all life being sacred. If you are the Pope, Catholic lives are the most sacred. And since the Pope is the most Catholic, his life is the most sacred (I mean technically, that's not really in the Bible).

Think of it this way, from the Daily Show, there isn't anyone on Earth right now who is infallible.

[Shai Gar]

Since the Vatican is a sovereign state, it needs an army, and this is the army. Also, it's not like the Pope is the safest job in the world.
Which makes it understandable that while the rest of the world kills from a distance, almost instantly, with bullets, his army's primary weapon is a stick with a metal blade at the top.

now that certainly explains why his car is bulletproof, he doesnt trust his security

[Pedro_The_Lion]

Indeed. I heard his death is projected to bring in several $100 million dollars in pilgrimage.

[Shai Gar]

well it certainly cost me $50million dollars to get the doctors to pull the plug

[Vagabond]

But it doesn't. Catholic dogma indicates the importance of the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. While no one is more important than Christ, certainly the person on Earth closest to Christ deserves the proper protection. Hmm... so if the Pope is the most important person (after Christ) to them, and if for that reason he deserves all this protection, I think it is safe to assume that, had Christ chosen these times to die on the cross (according to teachings), he would have failed miserably, since he would deserve to be protected even more than the Pope does (if that is even possible, lol).

[Claverhouse]

Think of it this way, from the Daily Show, there isn't anyone on Earth right now who is infallible.
[Coolly]

Really ?


Anyway. Firstly, it's their job to protect their lord. Secondly, they are quite tough. No security is perfect, but they do have firearms as well, and if they caught you stalking the next pope with a garrote in your hand, the next few minutes might well be the worst of your life. Worse than hearing Elton John.

1.

The Swiss Guard currently consists of a total of 100 men: 4 officials, 1 chaplain, 23 noncommissioned officers, 70 halbardiers, and 2 drummers. The halbard is the traditional weapon carried by Swiss Guards. The members of the Swiss Guard reside in a barrack in Vatican City. They serve for two years, with the possibility of extending the period to a maximum of 25 years. During this period they receive training in self-defence, attend shooting practice, take course in Italian and study the organizational structure of the Vatican. At the end of the first year they must take a very thorough exam. Guard recruits must be Roman Catholic men of Swiss nationality who are single, under 30 years old and stand at least 5-feet, 8-inches tall. Guards need to have completed their initial military training in the Swiss Armed Forces, and obtained a certificate of good conduct from an ecclesiastical and a civil authority.

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/ch-guard.jpg


2.

Wielding nothing but Renaissance weaponry, this tiny army kept Nazi soldiers out of Vatican City as Germany occupied Rome during World War II.*

The last time the Swiss Guard ever lost to an invader was in 1798 when Napoleon swept through, disarmed and disbanded the corps and abducted two popes in two years. One of those popes, Pius VI, died in captivity.

After that, the guard's record is impeccable, keeping popes and papal territory safe and protected since their troops regrouped in 1800.

It was an undercover Swiss Guard who helped shield Pope John Paul II during the assassination attempt against his life May 13, 1981, in St. Peter's Square.

3.

Enduring 24-hour shifts, most Swiss Guards find their greatest battle is putting up with thousands of tourists asking the same questions: "Is there a bathroom?" "Which way to the museum?" and "Why can't I see the pope?"




Claverhouse :ph34r:



Vile uniforms though.


* Not quite true. The Germans declared Rome an Open City, tacitly allowing the Allies to take it rather than risk it's cultural treasures. One Monte Cassino was quite enough to demonstrate their enemies' total lack of culture.


Had they invested the city not even the entire Italian army could have got them out, let alone a single company of schweizers.

[garak]

Yeah, somehow I think their impeccable record has as much to do with invaders not trying, as it does their own effectiveness.

p.s. I think the uniforms are pretty spiffy.

[booyalab]

Hmm... so if the Pope is the most important person (after Christ) to them, and if for that reason he deserves all this protection, I think it is safe to assume that, had Christ chosen these times to die on the cross (according to teachings), he would have failed miserably, since he would deserve to be protected even more than the Pope does (if that is even possible, lol).

I have a hunch that catholicism didn't/wouldn't exist before Jesus died. Just a hunch. :P

[mgb]

Hmm... so if the Pope is the most important person (after Christ) to them, and if for that reason he deserves all this protection, I think it is safe to assume that, had Christ chosen these times to die on the cross (according to teachings), he would have failed miserably, since he would deserve to be protected even more than the Pope does (if that is even possible, lol).

But Jesus was supposed to die. His life on Earth was pre-determined (according to the faithful). He was offered protection at the Last Supper and denied it because he understood his fate. Jesus also died so he could rise again, something Pope's will not do, hopefully. For Jesus, dying was only part of the cycle that we call Easter.

I think Michelangelo's Pieta outlines this idea very well. In it, Mary isn't crying at the loss of her son but almost resigned to the fact that he had to die.

[Vagabond]

I have a hunch that catholicism didn't/wouldn't exist before Jesus died. Just a hunch. :P Meh... for discussion's sake, assume he wanted to die again then nowadays... clearly I was being theoretical...:rolleyes:

But Jesus was supposed to die. His life on Earth was pre-determined (according to the faithful). He was offered protection at the Last Supper and denied it because he understood his fate. Jesus also died so he could rise again, something Pope's will not do, hopefully. For Jesus, dying was only part of the cycle that we call Easter. But, Jesus died in order to defeat death and we are all supposed to except to rise from the dead too and expect the afterlife and live according to the example of Jesus etc... so fearing for our mortal lives is kind of contredictory with all that... shouldn't the Pope (and every 'representative' of god) live according to these beliefs that they preach and expect the rest of us to honour?

[mgb]

But, Jesus died in order to defeat death and we are all supposed to except to rise from the dead too and expect the afterlife and live according to the example of Jesus etc... so fearing for our mortal lives is kind of contredictory with all that... shouldn't the Pope (and every 'representative' of god) live according to these beliefs that they preach and expect the rest of us to honour?

But it was the purpose of Jesus to die on the cross. And no one else shall live again until Jesus come back for the final judgement, if that is in fact our true life span.

If the Pope is meant to live or die, it won't matter whether he has guards there or not.

In truth, we are all meant to live as long as possible and live the lives that God gave us. For the Pope, if that means protection from someone who has obviously been overcome by the devil (who else would want to kill the person closest to God on Earth). For the Vatican Guards (I can't imagine when the last one was killed in action, maybe WWII) they will live as long as possible doing what they do. There are some occupational hazards, but there are with a lot of professions.

[Claverhouse]

How, and against whom, would they have fought in WWII ? The then papacy thought both sides as equally ghastly as the other. Possibly they fought during Garibaldi's 1st march on Rome or later in 1870 when the French for some reason withdrew ( OK, France was under attack, but the troops in Rome weren't going to make much difference to the debacle ).

Or earlier, when Louis Napoleon's unky had the Swiss Guard disbanded when he took the Holy Father captive.

A few years ago one of them shot another dead or something, but that doesn't really count.


Claverhouse :ph34r:


Note: Garibaldi was a proto-fascist. Like the Buonapartes.

[mgb]

My cursory reading told me that they had defended (not sure how hard) the Vatican against the Germans in WWII. I wasn't saying they attacked anyone.

[crule81]

My cursory reading told me that they had defended (not sure how hard) the Vatican against the Germans in WWII. I wasn't saying they attacked anyone.

??? I've never heard of this. Kesselring evacuated Rome without a fight so all of the historical buildings were preserved. The Germans never attempted to take over the Vatican. That would be a stupid PR move since more than half of the Germans (if you include Austrians) are Catholic and many of Germanies allies after the Italians surrendered, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, were Catholic.

[PonderBee]

As a side note:
Am I the only one who thinks it would be hilarious to see one of these dorky looking dudes run to grab a gun and proceed to bust a cap in someone's ass, all while dressed as a party favor?
:rofl: Okay, you made me laugh.


Maybe the next pope will be more "fashion forward"

[Claverhouse]

That would be a stupid PR move since more than half of the Germans (if you include Austrians) are Catholic and many of Germanies allies after the Italians surrendered, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, were Catholic.

And Adolf.


A few years ago an extreme atheist lady laid it down to me:

a/ That he was a Good Catholic ( well, he seems to have believed in christian tradition, and not really have been a black magic or pagan goofball as many claim: but I doubt if he believed in any religion that much > a form of hinduism, which now has it's own aryan tradition of claiming him as a Great Enlightened One, from Savitri Devi onwards, may have inspired him a bit ).

b/ That before his self-ending he received the Last Rites from an RC priest.

I attempted to point out that suicide being a mortal sin --- no matter how justified --- the Church does not condone it, nor assist the action: but I lost the will to live at that point.



Claverhouse :ph34r: