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Serotonin
7 Apr 2005, 04:47 AM
Enneagram and MBTI are two personality typing systems that are both used by many people. We see that there is no perfect correlation between the two, yet some MBTI types are more likely to be an enneagram type than others, and vice versa.
This got my extraverted intuition pumping and so one day I ran smack into an idea, what if we could correlate the eight Jungian functions with the nine points of the enneagram?
My Ti then says, "whoa dude, 8 correlating with 9 will give you some nasty decimals". Not so if we have a little caveat. The enneagram point 9 is said to be an integration of all the enneagram points, such that a person who is a 9 can see the merits of everyone's point of view, and thus the 9 is commonly named "The Mediator", who makes everyone's opinion valid an give them equal time. The 9, which is at the pinnacle of the enneagram, I guess represents the synthesis of all the merits of each type.
Thus I will leave it out of this analysis, and lo and behold, we have 8 enneapoints left, and 8 Jungian functions. I will now attempt to demonstrate how each of these points represents one of the Jungian functions. I am not saying that this is the be-all and end-all of MBTI-e correlation, just to show some tendencies.

The One: Ni (Introverted Intuition)
The One is primarily concerned with being good and perfect. A model citizen, competent, successful, and righteous. So how does one become good and perfect? By considering all possibilities, having a little insight, or vision, into how the future will pan out, and then executing what they think is the best course of action. This is primarily how xNxJs also operate. Using their Ni, they consider the implications of their actions in a subjective way, and then use their extraverted judging function (either Te or Fe) to implement their vision.
Many an INTJ is a One. I have also seen ENTJs, ENFJs and INFJs as Ones.

The Two: Fe (Extraverted Feeling)
Twos are all about love, compassion and personal interaction. They love being in love, giving gifts, feeling wanted and needed and making other people feel the same way. This is also the essence of Extraverted Feeling. It is a concrete, interactive, expressive form of emotion. It is objective, and assumes everyone is entitled to love, regardless of background or personality.
The large majority of twos are either ESFJ or ENFJ.

The Three: Se (Extraverted Sensing)
The basic aim of the Three is to be successful and be appreciated by others for their success. Self-image is very important to threes. So how does a three make sure they are acknowledged and received positively in the world? Make an impression. Convey a sense of "style". Kiersey lists "making an impression" as a key component of the "Artisan" temperament (the SP). What Jungian Function characterises the SP? Extraverted Sensing. Many a ESTP and ESFP is a three.

The Four: Fi (Introverted Feeling)
The Four is often cited as the most mysterious and misunderstood of the enneatypes. No wonder, almost all are introverts and put a high importance on their internal emotions. Singers like Jeff Buckley, Morrissey, Kurt Cobain, Billy Corgan, Joni Mitchell and Neil Young have made careers out of writing music about their tortured souls. And yes, they are/were all fours. Introverted Feeling is about examining the worth of something, be it a person, an image or an emotion. This takes a lot of introspection and soul-searching. Hence the fourish nature of those with strong Fi.
INFPs and ISFPs are commonly fours. INFJs who are fours may have a strong integration to One, accessing their introverted intuition.

The Five: Ti (Introverted Thinking)
Introverted thinking is about examining the essence of something, usually an idea or a concept. People with strong Ti use it almost as a piledriver or a mortar and pestle, grinding an idea around in their heads until it reaches a versatile "powder" form. Ideas can have many components, and Ti deals with these by running them simultaneously, and then producing a pattern or essence of the idea. A very cerebral process, and one cannot help but make the link between this and the nature of an enneagram five. Fives have a desire for pure knowledge, and not just for itself, but to synthesise it into patterns as a way of understanding the world.
Almost all INTPs are fives. Quite a few ISTPs are as well.

The Six: Si (Introverted Sensing)
The Six is often called the "Loyalist". Trustworthy, dependable, and not prone to venture outside their comfort zone unless forced to. Sixes are by nature often conservative in their approach to life, and are driven by a need for safety and security. Thus they would be comfortable with things that are familiar: the family home, the smell of home-cooking, the sight of a loved one or the sound of his/her voice. Familiar senses describe the essence of Si. Si has strong connections with the past, it is about conjuring up the senses that you have stored away in your mind, experienced in the past. Si is the function that describes Kiersey's Guardian temperament, the SJ. Not surprisingly, SJ sixes are in abundance.

The Seven: Ne (Extraverted Intuition)
The Seven takes the expansive approach to life. There is so much out there, waiting to be explored, experienced and revelled in. Revelry is the key to understand a Seven. They want to have fun. Similarly, extraverted intuition is about pushing the envelope, exploring new territory, being fearless and shameless. Many a stand-up comedian is a Seven. Sometimes you wonder after seeing a stand-up show, "How could they have come up with all that original material so quickly and delivered it so well?". The answer is strong extraverted intuition. I know quite a few Sevens IRL, and they tend to be either ENFP or ENTP.

The Eight: Te (Extraverted Thinking)
Power and control are central to the Eight. It is important for the Eight to have things settled, and in their place. They hate ambiguity and indecisiveness. They have an irresistible urge to categorise. Hence most Eights are either ESTJs or ENTJs, since extraverted thinking is about categorising, finalising, and putting a workable structure in place. Any impediments or weaknesses in this structure must be dealt with or eliminated, for extraverted thinking types hate chaos, weakness or flimsiness.

_______________________________________________________________

Now things start to get interesting.
Take each Jungian function, and then disregard whether it is introverted or extraverted. So we would have:

Thinking: 5 and 8
Feeling: 2 and 4
Sensing: 3 and 6
Intuition: 1 and 7

Each of these pairs has a stress/security connection in the enneagram!
5 (Ti) integrates to 8 (Te)
2 (Fe) integrates to 4 (Fi)
3 (Se) integrates to 6 (Si)
1 (Ni) integrates to 7 (Ne)

There is no bias for introversion/extraversion i.e. two introverted functions integrate to an extraverted function and vice-versa. This is similar to how a normal MB type function would operate: two extraverted and two introverted functions.

So I now leave it to you dear reader. Coincidence, or something more.....

Last Song
7 Apr 2005, 05:08 AM
I need to read it over properly rather than just skimming over it, but I have been talking about the correlation between MBTI and Enneagram for a while now and wondering about it. What you've presented is much more organised and 'complete' than most of my thoughts and looks well done. Interesting.

MasterMerk
7 Apr 2005, 06:13 AM
Not sure about Se and enneagram 3. Otherwise, generally I think that's pretty good.

EDIT: Come to think of it, Se and 3 fits better than I thought. Nice.

philonightmare
7 Apr 2005, 06:26 AM
This is quite well thought-out. I agree on your decision regarding 9 being a synthesis. Good job using your Ne.

Ni was spot on as 1. As well as Fi as 4...ah heck, they all are. I liked your descriptions. :)

Watermark
7 Apr 2005, 08:59 AM
Each of these pairs has a stress/security connection in the enneagram!
5 (Ti) integrates to 8 (Te)
2 (Fe) integrates to 4 (Fi)
3 (Se) integrates to 6 (Si)
1 (Ni) integrates to 7 (Ne)


I see where you are coming, although, the correlation doesn't quite fit the integration for 8,4,6, 7 and 9.

8 (Te) integrates to 2 (Fe)
4 (Fi) integrates to 1 (Ni)
6 (Si) integrates to 9
7 (Ne) integrates to 5 (Ti)
9 integrates to 3 (Se)

As well, the Enneagram types that are observed to be representatives of MBTI types may just be very well integrated - as in the example of INTJs and INFJs.

Serotonin
7 Apr 2005, 09:36 AM
I see where you are coming, although, the correlation doesn't quite fit the integration for 8,4,6, 7 and 9.

8 (Te) integrates to 2 (Fe)
4 (Fi) integrates to 1 (Ni)
6 (Si) integrates to 9
7 (Ne) integrates to 5 (Ti)
9 integrates to 3 (Se)

As well, the Enneagram types that are observed to be representatives of MBTI types may just be very well integrated - as in the example of INTJs and INFJs.

Sure. I didn't expect everything to fit perfectly.
But you can see connections e.g. the INTP 5 has a connection to 7 - Ne. The INFJ 4 has a connection to 1 - Ni. 8 -> 2 is weird though, although I have seen it in real life, and 9s, well maybe there is some sensing connection since they have access to 3 and 6, but that's just getting speculative.

Vagabond
7 Apr 2005, 10:22 AM
Um... what about INTJ Fives?:P

euterpenc
7 Apr 2005, 12:41 PM
Idk about Ni ones. Being good and righteous sounds like values take charge, indicating an F.

coffeezombie
7 Apr 2005, 12:56 PM
Well, it's a nice correlation to read, but I think that it isn't a 100% one. I've seen quite a few Six and Nine INTPs, not just Fives. Of course, most INTPs are Fives, I agree. On the other hand, many ISTPs seem to be Sixes, probably just as many as Fives. And yeah, like Vagabond was basically saying, many INTJs are not Ones but are Fives instead. My take on it is that there are more factors than just functional preference that make one possess a certain Enneagramatic motivation.

Watermark
7 Apr 2005, 01:11 PM
But you can see connections e.g. the INTP 5 has a connection to 7 - Ne. The INFJ 4 has a connection to 1 - Ni. 8 -> 2 is weird though, although I have seen it in real life, and 9s, well maybe there is some sensing connection since they have access to 3 and 6, but that's just getting speculative.

Yes, I can see INTP 5 's connection to 7 Ne, or perhaps more NP

INFJ certainly has a connection to 1, be it as a main type, a wing (ie 9w1, 2w1) or point of integration.

8 -> 2 by becoming more other directed/nurturing caring for others. Since 8s already operate in the head and the gut centre, they need to move to the heart are in order to balance out.

Rather than correlating Enneagram type with cognitive function, I would favor more a relationship between Etype and temperament.

keetah
8 Apr 2005, 01:17 AM
INFJs who are fours may have a strong integration to One, accessing their introverted intuition.

that's exactly true for me. I'm a 4w5 INFJ, but score very high at 1, also.

April
8 Apr 2005, 02:01 AM
Sensing is my least used function, how can I have an integration to it? I'm slightly confused.

*wants more info on 9s*

Winterpark
8 Apr 2005, 02:04 AM
So I now leave it to you dear reader. Coincidence, or something more.....

Excellent job. :)

I am not very certain about my self, but I could be an ISTP type 5 or 4, with some 9 tendencies.

Serotonin
8 Apr 2005, 02:32 AM
Um... what about INTJ Fives?:P

Connection to 8 - Te.

cathmc
8 Apr 2005, 09:46 PM
Sensing is my least used function, how can I have an integration to it? I'm slightly confused.

*wants more info on 9s*
OK April, I'm with you as a fellow 9w1. I am also a rank amateur compared to most people here when it comes to the whole MBTI system and these functions. BUT, a beginning thought.
The whole idea about the directions of integration and disintegration is that you do take on qualities not usual for your type - i.e. 9s can take on the best qualities of 3s when they feel secure and comfortable, and the bad qualities of 6s when they are stressed. This always made sense to me - I can definitely be more achievement oriented and ambitious (a la 3) when I'm comfortable, and can become overly anxious/dependent on others for guidance (a la 6) when stressed.
OK, so by Serotonin's correlation 9s would draw on Se when healthy/secure, (and stress would bring out Si). Stay with me now...
From the function descriptions at 16types.com, it describes Se as: 'Experiencing the immediate context; taking action in the physical world; noticing changes and opportunities for action; accumulating experiences...' - this is exactly what average to unhealthy nines do NOT do - they (we? well ok I :) )tend to be disengaged from the immediate context and the physical world. Meaning they would only do it when very healthy secure, i.e. when they go in their direction of integration - to three - which Serotonin correlates to - Se!
I think there may be something to it. I can definitely say it is only when I feel more integrated or healthy that I can better 'experience the immediate context' and 'accumulate experiences'.
So if you buy that much (maybe you don't), do you think it makes sense to say that under stress, we 9s depend more on Si? (described as 'Reviewing past experiences; “what is” evoking “what was”; seeking detailed information and links to what is known; recalling stored impressions; accumulating data; recognizing the way things have always been'). I clearly do not have Serotonin's patience for this kind of analysis, so I'm punting!

April
9 Apr 2005, 01:19 AM
I really appreciate the time you took in explaining it to me :)

I read the "healthy" description of 3, and I can definitely see how it can be me when I'm in a really good mood.

As for Se, I probably don't try to use it unless I'm in a big group with people and having a good time. I suppose that does make sense then. I think I may buy into using Si when under stress to a degree. I think it may just be the way that most people work: thinking about past experiences and how your current stressful situation doesn't match up. But, I don't do this that often. I don't really dwell on the past.

Do you agree with Serotonin that 9 is the pinnacle of all types in the enneagram?

I've recently been reading a lot about the enneagram. Have you just done lots of google searching? Or are there any books you would recommend? *just got Please Understand Me for MBTI types and is very excited* :D

cathmc
9 Apr 2005, 06:46 AM
I have two books on the enneagram - one is called 'The Enneagram Made Easy'. I forget the authors' names (it's in storage now). It's very simple explanations of each type, even with cartoons. It's actually pretty funny, a good place to start.
The other is 'Understanding the Enneagram' by Riso & Hudson. Goes a lot more in depth about each type. Other than that, yeah google. My favorite websites about enneagram are enneagraminstitutecom and enneagramcentral.com. But there are lots of others...
So how about good explanations of the 8 functions? I understand the basic concept of the 4 functions and whether your introverting or extraverting them. But Ti is the only one I can put my finger on and say 'this one I'm using RIGHT NOW' (not surprising I guess...) Any good recommendations?
p.s. yes of course 9s are the pinnacle of all personality types :)
no seriously, not sure I'd say pinnacle. They do say 9s can be hard to type b/c one of their main qualities is a lack of a strong self-identity. So they (I!) may see themselves in all the types. This definitely happened to me at first.

wildcat
13 Apr 2006, 12:01 AM
Enneagram and MBTI are two personality typing systems that are both used by many people. We see that there is no perfect correlation between the two, yet some MBTI types are more likely to be an enneagram type than others, and vice versa.
This got my extraverted intuition pumping and so one day I ran smack into an idea, what if we could correlate the eight Jungian functions with the nine points of the enneagram?
My Ti then says, "whoa dude, 8 correlating with 9 will give you some nasty decimals". Not so if we have a little caveat. The enneagram point 9 is said to be an integration of all the enneagram points, such that a person who is a 9 can see the merits of everyone's point of view, and thus the 9 is commonly named "The Mediator", who makes everyone's opinion valid an give them equal time. The 9, which is at the pinnacle of the enneagram, I guess represents the synthesis of all the merits of each type.
Thus I will leave it out of this analysis, and lo and behold, we have 8 enneapoints left, and 8 Jungian functions. I will now attempt to demonstrate how each of these points represents one of the Jungian functions. I am not saying that this is the be-all and end-all of MBTI-e correlation, just to show some tendencies.

The One: Ni (Introverted Intuition)
The One is primarily concerned with being good and perfect. A model citizen, competent, successful, and righteous. So how does one become good and perfect? By considering all possibilities, having a little insight, or vision, into how the future will pan out, and then executing what they think is the best course of action. This is primarily how xNxJs also operate. Using their Ni, they consider the implications of their actions in a subjective way, and then use their extraverted judging function (either Te or Fe) to implement their vision.
Many an INTJ is a One. I have also seen ENTJs, ENFJs and INFJs as Ones.

The Two: Fe (Extraverted Feeling)
Twos are all about love, compassion and personal interaction. They love being in love, giving gifts, feeling wanted and needed and making other people feel the same way. This is also the essence of Extraverted Feeling. It is a concrete, interactive, expressive form of emotion. It is objective, and assumes everyone is entitled to love, regardless of background or personality.
The large majority of twos are either ESFJ or ENFJ.

The Three: Se (Extraverted Sensing)
The basic aim of the Three is to be successful and be appreciated by others for their success. Self-image is very important to threes. So how does a three make sure they are acknowledged and received positively in the world? Make an impression. Convey a sense of "style". Kiersey lists "making an impression" as a key component of the "Artisan" temperament (the SP). What Jungian Function characterises the SP? Extraverted Sensing. Many a ESTP and ESFP is a three.

The Four: Fi (Introverted Feeling)
The Four is often cited as the most mysterious and misunderstood of the enneatypes. No wonder, almost all are introverts and put a high importance on their internal emotions. Singers like Jeff Buckley, Morrissey, Kurt Cobain, Billy Corgan, Joni Mitchell and Neil Young have made careers out of writing music about their tortured souls. And yes, they are/were all fours. Introverted Feeling is about examining the worth of something, be it a person, an image or an emotion. This takes a lot of introspection and soul-searching. Hence the fourish nature of those with strong Fi.
INFPs and ISFPs are commonly fours. INFJs who are fours may have a strong integration to One, accessing their introverted intuition.

The Five: Ti (Introverted Thinking)
Introverted thinking is about examining the essence of something, usually an idea or a concept. People with strong Ti use it almost as a piledriver or a mortar and pestle, grinding an idea around in their heads until it reaches a versatile "powder" form. Ideas can have many components, and Ti deals with these by running them simultaneously, and then producing a pattern or essence of the idea. A very cerebral process, and one cannot help but make the link between this and the nature of an enneagram five. Fives have a desire for pure knowledge, and not just for itself, but to synthesise it into patterns as a way of understanding the world.
Almost all INTPs are fives. Quite a few ISTPs are as well.

The Six: Si (Introverted Sensing)
The Six is often called the "Loyalist". Trustworthy, dependable, and not prone to venture outside their comfort zone unless forced to. Sixes are by nature often conservative in their approach to life, and are driven by a need for safety and security. Thus they would be comfortable with things that are familiar: the family home, the smell of home-cooking, the sight of a loved one or the sound of his/her voice. Familiar senses describe the essence of Si. Si has strong connections with the past, it is about conjuring up the senses that you have stored away in your mind, experienced in the past. Si is the function that describes Kiersey's Guardian temperament, the SJ. Not surprisingly, SJ sixes are in abundance.

The Seven: Ne (Extraverted Intuition)
The Seven takes the expansive approach to life. There is so much out there, waiting to be explored, experienced and revelled in. Revelry is the key to understand a Seven. They want to have fun. Similarly, extraverted intuition is about pushing the envelope, exploring new territory, being fearless and shameless. Many a stand-up comedian is a Seven. Sometimes you wonder after seeing a stand-up show, "How could they have come up with all that original material so quickly and delivered it so well?". The answer is strong extraverted intuition. I know quite a few Sevens IRL, and they tend to be either ENFP or ENTP.

The Eight: Te (Extraverted Thinking)
Power and control are central to the Eight. It is important for the Eight to have things settled, and in their place. They hate ambiguity and indecisiveness. They have an irresistible urge to categorise. Hence most Eights are either ESTJs or ENTJs, since extraverted thinking is about categorising, finalising, and putting a workable structure in place. Any impediments or weaknesses in this structure must be dealt with or eliminated, for extraverted thinking types hate chaos, weakness or flimsiness.

_______________________________________________________________

Now things start to get interesting.
Take each Jungian function, and then disregard whether it is introverted or extraverted. So we would have:

Thinking: 5 and 8
Feeling: 2 and 4
Sensing: 3 and 6
Intuition: 1 and 7

Each of these pairs has a stress/security connection in the enneagram!
5 (Ti) integrates to 8 (Te)
2 (Fe) integrates to 4 (Fi)
3 (Se) integrates to 6 (Si)
1 (Ni) integrates to 7 (Ne)

There is no bias for introversion/extraversion i.e. two introverted functions integrate to an extraverted function and vice-versa. This is similar to how a normal MB type function would operate: two extraverted and two introverted functions.

So I now leave it to you dear reader. Coincidence, or something more.....
Well put. I think the six may have a cognate with the L scale of Eysenck.
Toward the end of his life Eysenck began to think of the Lie scale as a real scale, and not just a correction method.

I do not see Si as a lie indicator unlass it is in sharp contrast to the function order of the type of the individual.

Serotonin
13 Apr 2006, 01:36 AM
Cheers to wildcat for resurrecting this.... a year on I still think it makes sense.

wildcat
13 Apr 2006, 02:15 AM
Cheers to wildcat for resurrecting this.... a year on I still think it makes sense.
Cheers for Serotonin for writing this. This is an Evergreen.

ferunandesu
13 Apr 2006, 02:31 AM
I don't see the enneagram having a causal relationship with the MBTI, and vice versa. Some types may correlate between the systems, but much like "race" and IQ test scores, you can't assume that one type will translate to another.

Enneagram = motivations
MBTI = cognitive processes

For instance, I'm a 4 on the enneagram and an INTP (it could be said that I have a strong 5 wing). I consider my MBTI personality the means to an end determined by my enneagram type.

wildcat
13 Apr 2006, 02:55 AM
I don't see the enneagram having a causal relationship with the MBTI, and vice versa. Some types may correlate between the systems, but much like "race" and IQ test scores, you can't assume that one type will translate to another.

Enneagram = motivations
MBTI = cognitive processes

For instance, I'm a 4 on the enneagram and an INTP (it could be said that I have a strong 5 wing). I consider my MBTI personality the means to an end determined by my enneagram type.
A four on the Enneagram with a strong five wing is only a step away from a five with a strong four wing. If your Fi is average or above average (fifth or higher) in the function order it is possible to be a four wing five. Unless you screw up the test of course.
The majority of the INTPs do not stand low on Fi.

ferunandesu
13 Apr 2006, 03:48 AM
A four on the Enneagram with a strong five wing is only a step away from a five with a strong four wing. If your Fi is average or above average (fifth or higher) in the function order it is possible to be a four wing five. Unless you screw up the test of course.
The majority of the INTPs do not stand low on Fi.

still no causal relationship. still no explanation of low type 1 and 8 preference.

wildcat
13 Apr 2006, 09:44 AM
still no causal relationship. still no explanation of low type 1 and 8 preference.
Light up two candles and read Maslow.
The hierarchy of motivation. The order of the eight.