Is the World becoming more, or less INTP friendly?

[jetboots]

Well things like the internet and technology and having all sorts of info at the fingertips is definitly an advantage.

However, I think as decades go by, more and more J will be required to even know something generally. I mean think of in 143 years. As people grow up, so much percerverance will be needed to just complete a general knowledge of anyone subject.. and doing a Masters of PhD? wow, that will be hardcore shiznat, by then it would be taking like at least 10 years on average to complete a PhD if not way more.

I think that there will be a year that society will be the optimized max derivative=0 for INTPs in terms of information access vs. time needed/effort required to get a general grasp of ideas.

Perhaps that time is now. Like today. Like youre reading this and already the derivative is negative......:P

On the third hand since everything is leaning towards complexity theories, that might give some other 3rd dimention to the problem....

[coffeezombie]

The world is probably less INTP friendly. But INTPs and similar types may be able to take over the world someday when everything is controlled by computers that nobody else knows the programming languages for.

[indie]

Did you ever read that Wired article "The Revenge of the Right Brain" posted awhile ago? It pretty much sums up my opinion.

http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/13.02/brain.html?pg=1&topic=brain&topic_set=

[mgb]

I'd agree that it's getting more difficult for INTPs. I think that for centuries we've survived quite well under the blankets of huge organizations like The Church or under kings and what not.

Today, people have to rely on their own more and more to accomplish anything. School takes longer and longer as degrees become less and less important. There is this "own two feet" attitude to the world that I feel really clashes with INTPness. As a result we are forced to blend in more and more to society. You see the results of that on this site a lot, people are unhappy at their jobs, wish they were back in school or just exploring all the ideas that pop into their heads.

I'd like to agree with indiejade's article, that there has been some sort of renaissance for INTPs. But I think we lack the drive to get us to positions where we are the decision makers. If we do get there, there is a pretty strong chance we've lost something on the way. It's not to say that there aren't opportunities to succeed anymore for INTPs, the struggle to get there is harder and harder as things like university cost more and more.

At the end of the day, life as an INTP has probably never been easy through history. But it probably was easier when the world was less dog-eat-dog as it is now.

[Hypnos]

Man, people are whining like bitches.

Instead of trolling through dusty libraries, you have more information at your fingertips through Google than entire nations had in their archives.

Unlike just 100 years ago, when 80%+ of the workforce was in agriculture, knowledge workers dominate modern economies.

Instead of being a glorified computer, you have a purview to design and shape entire technical systems and business structures without being CEO (a one in a thousand proposition).

Finally, _history_ is available to the common man. You enjoy a global view that only the most elite powerbrokers in history have had at their disposal.

[Miss Anthropic]

Nah, we have always been the minority always will be swimming against the current. The world is defined by the people in it, and 1% now, is the same as 1% then. I'm sure INTPs of yore were aimless drifters as well. And what INTP can hold onto one interest long enough to earn a Phd anyway? It takes a certain kind of weird to do that. I know, I work with a bunch of them.

[Hypnos]

Nah, we have always been the minority always will be swimming against the current. The world is defined by the people in it, and 1% now, is the same as 1% then. I'm sure INTPs of yore were aimless drifters as well. And what INTP can hold onto one interest long enough to earn a Phd anyway? It takes a certain kind of weird to do that. I know, I work with a bunch of them.
I'm doing my PhD now. 50% of everything beyond Masters level will be discredited in the future, anyway. You have to love ideas, and the painful process of testing them.

[Miss Anthropic]

I'm doing my PhD now. 50% of everything beyond Masters level will be discredited in the future, anyway. You have to love ideas, and the painful process of testing them.
Gotta say, the folks I work with just bitch about all the paperwork they have to do that takes up all the time they used to spend researching. They do work for the gov't though. And for the amount of $$ spent on the degree and the time it takes, the monetary reward just isn't there. You must love what you are studying. (I like research and problem solving, but like most INTPs I like to assist with lots of input...I wouldn't be into running the dog and pony show to garner $ for the research. That would just suck. And from the sounds of it the peer review system for critiquing papers is a lot of BS)

[Shai Gar]

indeed

[Dunearhp]

Man, people are whining like bitches.

Instead of trolling through dusty libraries, you have more information at your fingertips through Google than entire nations had in their archives.

Unlike just 100 years ago, when 80%+ of the workforce was in agriculture, knowledge workers dominate modern economies.

Instead of being a glorified computer, you have a purview to design and shape entire technical systems and business structures without being CEO (a one in a thousand proposition).

Finally, _history_ is available to the common man. You enjoy a global view that only the most elite powerbrokers in history have had at their disposal.

I agree wholeheartedly. Ten years ago I would have killed for the information access I have today.

If people are looking for a renaissance, I think it is ahead of us.

[Hypnos]

Gotta say, the folks I work with just bitch about all the paperwork they have to do that takes up all the time they used to spend researching. They do work for the gov't though. And for the amount of $$ spent on the degree and the time it takes, the monetary reward just isn't there. You must love what you are studying. [...]
a) I'm paid to attend grad school
b) A physics PhD can be quite lucrative in the job market
c) The prospect of looking under nature's skirt, at the intersection of math and tangible reality, is intoxicating


(I like research and problem solving, but like most INTPs I like to assist with lots of input...I wouldn't be into running the dog and pony show to garner $ for the research. That would just suck. And from the sounds of it the peer review system for critiquing papers is a lot of BS)
You can't evade the reality that you must be held accountable for your productivity, even in the search for truth. One just has to play the game, imperfect as it is.

[Dunearhp]

Did you ever read that Wired article "The Revenge of the Right Brain" posted awhile ago? It pretty much sums up my opinion.

http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/13.02/brain.html?pg=1&topic=brain&topic_set=

This doesn't worry me. I think the article is only seeing half the story. We want the repetetive/mechanistic work to disappear. INTPs are called architects. Good architects meld form and function to make the whole beautiful. If you can identify the areas where your creativity is most prevalent then you will do fine.

[glassmoon]

Did you ever read that Wired article "The Revenge of the Right Brain" posted awhile ago? It pretty much sums up my opinion.

http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/13.02/brain.html?pg=1&topic=brain&topic_set=
They give the impression as if all the theoretical math learned came today into a climax of practical use.
I found the idea of the Conceptual Age replacing the Information Age very interesting, it's almost as if the Information Age (left-brain) layed the basis supplying all the data required for the Conceptual Age (right-brain) to be creative and forming new structures and ideas. In other words: the INTP era has begun!

[Dunearhp]

the INTP era has begun!
*Clouds part*
*Chorus of angels*

[Robespierre]

I found the idea of the Conceptual Age replacing the Information Age very interesting, it's almost as if the Information Age (left-brain) layed the basis supplying all the data required for the Conceptual Age (right-brain) to be creative and forming new structures and ideas. In other words: the INTP era has begun!

Every age has been the conceptual age.

"Both force and money are impotent against ideas."-Ludwig Von Mises

[Biff_Loman]

I wonder if the world is less friendly to INTPs, but in a back-handed sort of way. To be honest, I wonder if the weaknesses of our personality are too easily indulged in our culture.

It seems tragically easy to get stuck in a rut of alternating between being online, playing video games or whatever you do, and working. Now, being stuck in a factory or being a peasant must have sucked terribly. But how many INTPs would have cracked under the strain and gone and accomplished something different with their lives in the past?

I love learning, but I feel like I've been spinning my wheels if I don't link intellectual stimulation with some kind of achievement. But I do it all the time, because it's easier just to read about things and then do nothing. It's nice to know that I'm using my brainpower to make my life better, but I rarely do this.

I'm thinking of the doctor (whatever his name is) from Master and Commander. Life aboard that ship must have been hellishly boring for an INTP, but he would have some fantastic stories to tell afterwards. In the film, he got to see the Galapagos islands. . . special. Also had the chance to participate in battles and do - well, do things an INTP would naturally never do.

Ah well. It doesn't seem like I fully baked this idea before trying to formulate it, but these are my preliminary thoughts on the subject.

[Miss Anthropic]

a) I'm paid to attend grad school
b) A physics PhD can be quite lucrative in the job market
c) The prospect of looking under nature's skirt, at the intersection of math and tangible reality, is intoxicating


You can't evade the reality that you must be held accountable for your productivity, even in the search for truth. One just has to play the game, imperfect as it is.
I'm sure your field is quite different.

[Hypnos]

I'm sure your field is quite different.
Perhaps. Physics itself, in many respects, has stayed the same since the beginning.

[floyd]

during the tech boom... things were more intp-friendly... more wear whatever the hell you want, look like a slob, office enviroments. although i think tech jobs still allow that kind of thing more than non tech jobs. the internet allows intps way more autonomous job opportunities that don't involve social contact or a schedule determined by someone else.

[Darren]

during the tech boom... things were more intp-friendly... more wear whatever the hell you want, look like a slob, office enviroments. although i think tech jobs still allow that kind of thing more than non tech jobs. the internet allows intps way more autonomous job opportunities that don't involve social contact or a schedule determined by someone else.

Sigh... you are describing my dream job, but I think those working conditions are hard to find in any field. However, I left tech because I was bored, and frankly I've never found technology very interesting... now I'm doing a graduate degree in economics and wondering if that was such a good idea.

.... Things are tough for an INTP, I've concluded. The world does not tolerate our weaknesses very well and seldom appreciates, or knows what to do with, our strengths.

Darren

[cathmc]

I think we lack the drive to get us to positions where we are the decision makers. If we do get there, there is a pretty strong chance we've lost something on the way.
I have no desire to be a decision maker. But I would like the opportunity to be someone who has the ear of decision makers. Have the luxury to pursue ideas without always having to consider pragmatism, and then be able to influence decisionmakers (who often don't have the time or inclination for unfettered analytical thinking) to consider possibilities that may not have occurred to them. This seems like the INTP road to influence...and for me would be a primary motivation for a Ph.D. (something I consider doing every 6 months or so...)
As for the world and INTPs...sure I've felt misunderstood and underappreciated and blah blah blah but come on, if I never heard of the Myers-Briggs test I would just think it was my lot in life and deal with it. I think there is a bit of a collective martyr complex on this forum sometimes.

[coffeezombie]

I don't think most of us want to be decision makers, except in the sense of making decisions for our own lives. I have absolutely no desire to give other people orders. Very ENTJ-ish to me... scary.

[Darren]

As for the world and INTPs...sure I've felt misunderstood and underappreciated and blah blah blah but come on, if I never heard of the Myers-Briggs test I would just think it was my lot in life and deal with it. I think there is a bit of a collective martyr complex on this forum sometimes.

I don't understand this collective martyr notion, what's the difference between "life sucks if you're an INTP" and "life sucks if you have active dislike of working to other people's schedules, you long to work alone and ponder deeply, etc"?

"INTP" just gives you a short, snappy label to describe this collection of traits that we share, that make life in the workplace a little difficult sometimes.

Are you saying the mere idea that my traits can be 'labelled' changes my perception of these traits (from 'something that must be dealt with' to 'something to whine about')?

[cathmc]

Well you said it better than me! Yeah I just think sometimes this notion of the rare and misunderstood INTP gives people license to attribute everything they're unhappy about to the world not being made for them. Everyone has to figure out how to navigate life with their particular combo of neuroses and strong points.
Then again, the whole idea of the forum is to be a place to discuss INTPness without getting a hard time about it so I'll can it...

[SheepDog]

I don't think the world ever was, or ever will be particularly friendly to INTP's.

But I guess it does come down to 'whattayagonnadoaboutit'?

[songbird36]

The world is becoming more goal and achievement-oriented.

This is anaethmetic to the INTP "drifter" ideal.

[Edmond Zedo]

The world is becoming more goal and achievement-oriented.

This is anaethmetic to the INTP "drifter" ideal.
You don't know us.

What's the ISTJ ideal?

[songbird36]

You don't know us.

What's the ISTJ ideal?

Based on the posts on career topics a lot of INTPs seem to have trouble deciding what they want to do, or with motivation in achieving it.

INTJs tend to be very goal-oriented and quite decisive. This isn't necessarily "better" it's just different.

I think the career world is better configured for J's generally than for P's.

[booyalab]

Based on the posts on career topics a lot of INTPs seem to have trouble deciding what they want to do, or with motivation in achieving it.

INTJs tend to be very goal-oriented and quite decisive. This isn't necessarily "better" it's just different.

I think the career world is better configured for J's generally than for P's.

I think Js generally care about the idea of a career more than Ps, peroid. If you look at things like a J, of course you're going to think that Ps are more screwed.

At the root of what it really means to be a J or P, there is no inherent advantage for one more than the other.

[Geoff]

It isnt motivation, it is simply seeing it as unimportant.

It can be tricky in a career configuration, but... a 'P' has strengths that the J's need. The J's need the P's for flexibility and 'outside the box', and the P's need the J's for organisational skills and a grounding in reality.

Certainly in a profession dominated by J (like mine), there are some classic conflicts, but also the opportunity really stand out as something different. The trick is standing out as a creative problem solver rather than a disorganised liability, to be honest.

-Geoff

[Darren]

The trick is standing out as a creative problem solver rather than a disorganised liability, to be honest.
-Geoff

LOL!! Words to live by.

Darren

[Aryan]

It has always been agreed by psychologists that INTPs are the pioneers of new thoughts in society, bringer of the change in civilization.

Looking from that angle i think INTPs really lack support networks and motivation from people to pursue their ideas. They are therefore left to do it all by themselves.

Instead of supporting, moreover a general trend can be seen where people resist new ideas, they resist change (except in science, thats why i think most INTPs love scientific careers most).

Its really a pity, after so many thinkers who were laughed at, burnt at stake, thrown into despicable conditions, we get this world which they created. But people have forgotten them, only a handful tremember them.

In fact maybe we are catalysts, who bring about change in this human system. Only a few INTPs are therefore good enough for humanity.

Being a minority its obvious that our lives arent represented in many human fields. Therefore we are stereotyped and live in this world which stare at us, not knowing what we really are.

The world isn't gonna get INTP friendly very soon. That's for sure.

[aether]

Let us organize (if possible) as a political group!

Let's do it! :)

[Imen de Naars]

Let us organize (if possible) as a political group!

Let's do it! :)


Active political partecipation oriented to decision-making - which would be the objective of a party - isn't a typical INTP worry.

[sbw]

no, and there's a some commies, here, too...if it were a literal "political group", it wouldn't work for all INTP people, because some of them are libertarians, some are republicans, some are commies, etc.

Scott

[Imen de Naars]

Republicans INTPs? wtf

[meshou]

Republicans INTPs? wtf"Republicans? WTF?" works better.

Of course, I also say "Democrats WTF?"

Vote Lib, people. There are so few of us. We're lonely, here with our gun racks and legal heroin and gay rights. :sobs:

[Imen de Naars]

Commies here, but in Italy the situation is different...

[Hypnos]

"Republicans? WTF?" works better.

Of course, I also say "Democrats WTF?"

Vote Lib, people. There are so few of us. We're lonely, here with our gun racks and legal heroin and gay rights. :sobs:
:thumbup: :wub: