Reactions to Ritual

[Clara]

I don't deal well with ritual, in general. I accept that it's sometimes a necessary element in life... well, sometimes acceptance, other times resignation.

Then again, it's sometimes a good thing, to have templates for including things that otherwise probably wouldn't happen -- everyone sitting down together for a meal, now and then, for instance.

Because I see ritual as a template ( useful to have, can be reformatted to fit slightly different requirements ) I don't refute its role. I just have a slightly different overall experience of it, to say... someone else, for whom it's like the stones that shape a well, e.g. :) Eileen, did I get that right ? So, yes, I'm glad there are things whose reinvention isn't a continual necessity... and I'm glad for what makes community possible, and vital... I try to keep in mind that my tendency to underappreciate the details that let ritual do its work ... heh, I need to work on saving it, for those it's sure not to bother.


edit : I intentionally broadened this into a reflection on INTPish ( and other types -- please ! ) reaction to ritual generally... but/and it was inspired by recognizing that I was arguing against one specific one... when really, all I have to do, there or ever, is participate or not...

[nobarcode]

I'm assuming your not talking about traditional-conventional-realistic-ritual. I don't know anything about it. I need ritual to prevent myself from -total evaporation. I may not believe or take part in ________, but only to remain functional.

Otherwise, I do go to Star$$$$$ every morning, at about the same time, to get my coffee for the ritualistic effect that the street lights still work and there is commerce and there are people inter-acting (and that moron is hogging the condiment counter while pretending to be stirring 3 precisely measured..oh, nevermind)...so on and so forth.

[Boneca]

I think rituals, such as family traditions and the like, can be good in that it brings people with very different personalities together.
For example, me and my ESTP cousin would never meet unless we had this midsummer tradition, where we first go to a public celebration and then have a family dinner afterwards. We both know exactly what's going to happen, so we'll make flower wreaths, prepare dinner etc. together and all the while, we'll be talking about what has happened in our lives the past year.
I like her, but we are so different that we'd never get around to talk to each other unless we are "forced" together in such a manner.

[Heather Harrison]

Rituals of social convention often wear on me, but I will participate, albeit grudgingly sometimes, just to preserve good relations with people. My participation can be willing and enthusiastic, however, if it leads to some other goal, such as connecting with someone I like whom I haven't seen in a long time.

So I guess I consider it a necessary evil.

Heather Harrison

[Pierce]

I went through a time period when I rejected all manner of ritual. It seemed to me artificial, a vague approximation of something that should possess "life," but doesn't -- as Clara said, a template, or perhaps a form letter, impersonal and at times offendingly so.

Over time, my view changed. I began to view life as a work of art where each of us is the artist of our own work. As we dream and imagine the grandness of what the art of our life might become, much of our vision is beyond our current reach. To reach the higher portions of our work, we build scaffolding that is the ritual structure where we stand while we chisel and carve and paint the slowly emerging work before us.

Of course, scaffolding is not art, and should be discarded when its purpose is served. The problem comes when we become enamoured with the scaffolding and begin to fashion and embellish and beautify it beyond what its common usefullness might warrant. The scaffolding then replaces the art -- it's so tempting to do, it's easier than the work of life -- it feels sturdy under our feet, and we can choose its direction and complexity to suit our whims -- it is the work of our hands and we become proud of it. But we must beware lest the art we first purposed, noble and true, is abandoned, replaced by ritual.

Now, I'm not against ritual, whether in the form of a family dinner or the pagentry of a coronation, religious or secular. But, I see it as scaffolding, and try to peer through the lattice to see the work behind... and I am most disappointed if the art is totally obscured.

[Jacque]

Worshipping patterns and community...is it a ritual if its repeated more than once with many participents?

Personally, I'm wary of rituals. I try to counter their neurological effects by maintaining a high level of consciousness, impersonalizing the correlation between somatosensory perceptions and intellectual thought. Though I know I'm not entirely immune to the conditioning, sometimes it's compatible with my prexisting convictions, thus reinforcing without introducing. Still, such things should precede from within through contemplation, and not through some invasive psychomotor trick. That is freedom as Hegel would have it.

Sociology's founder got caught up in a cult of rituals. Interconnectedness and the prospect of a grand science (sociology) which would become the organic culmination in the evolution of science was falsely overstated. Instead, [sigh] it degenerated into unscientific eccentricity and isolation as his admirers abandoned him. Though, it would seem impossible to reconcile NT/NF differences in a single belief system.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv3-67
"His [Auguste Comte's] Religion of Humanity must take its place among a
whole outcropping of “substitute religions” beginning with the new creeds of the French Revolution itself. Comte tried to have it both ways by generating an emotional appeal on behalf of an allegedly scientific religion; but, predictably, he fell instead between stools, since most people who welcomed the “scien-tific” basis would not accept the ritual or the emotional incantations, while those who came to have their emotional needs satisfied for the most part either did not understand or did not accept the intellectual sub-structure."

[Eileen]

There is many a ritual I would gladly do (or have done) away with in my own life (student teaching to an extent, social conventions, etc), but I don't categorically dismiss it as useless or oppressive. In religion, ritual is very important to me, and I believe that it enhances the experience of worship (but that is particularly corporate worship, which I do place a high value on). I think that I do like the idea of it being "stones that shape the well." Yes, that's lovely.

I read rituals like a text and appreciate the metaphors that are manifest. When I participate in Eucharist, I understand that I am metaphorically (which is not to say not literally, but I don't privilege the literal as more meaningful than the figurative) feasting with and on Christ, with and (ultimately) on the Body of Christ which is the church and its membership, which extends in many directions spatially and temporally. I find the ritual profound and beautiful because of what it is acting out. But it's a ritual that I've chosen, if that makes any sense... I don't appreciate rituals that are imposed (I hate the rituals involved in getting a job, for instance--blech!).

[MacGuffin]

I usually hate ritual, but have found meaning in it lately.

For example, as a kid I hated attending church. But lately I find it soothing. Mostly, cause we go to the early service and there is not much singing and we are done 45 minutes.

[Clara]

just checked, we still have no fist-of-triumph-in-the-air smilie - :smooch: instead

I think this underlines that it's not *wrong* that we may find our thoughts wandering into only somewhat connected topics, in worship services. In fact, I agree very much with Jacque, that it's necessary ( 'why' is a topic for another day -- though J has covered it well, in the above post ) to respect our own innate best approach to whatever ritual we find ourselves participating in.

I suspect that for INFJs, e.g., this is different -- and that they and we can jump to the mistaken conclusion that by mimicking their natural response, we find one that might be more peaceful than our own. I strongly disagree with that.

Okay, switching to all the many other kinds of ritual : yes, Boneca, that's exactly what I meant. You know what's expected, when it'll begin and end... and, you appreciate what'll be possible, because you're part of it. See, I think that if sometimes we have to remind ourselves, in the middle of something, nevermind, tomorrow this will be in the past... that this doesn't take away from it ... sometimes ( no longer sure what I'm thinking, and have to log off now, anyway ... maybe someone else has some insight ... ) :)

NB : I missed, somehow, two or more posts -- *later* :hello:

[philonightmare]

I believe in practicing rituals that enhance the spiritual self. Things like saying a prayer before bed can help me get through the next morning and night. Rituals in religion hold a special place for me, similar to rituals that my friends and I engage in (such as a hug when we first see each other after six weeks apart, etc.).

I also hold the view that some rituals are not morally right. Even if they do somehow "enhance" the spiritual self for an individual. I believe you are alluding to my thread, Clara where I found issue with practicing certain "wrong" things in order to be qualified as a believer. Yes, I realize that some rituals are harmless, but really, some serve no purpose other than to harm. Those are the ones I disagree with (eg. Satanic cult rituals).


I suspect that for INFJs, e.g., this is different -- and that they and we can jump to the mistaken conclusion that by mimicking their natural response, we find one that might be more peaceful than our own. I strongly disagree with that.

What do you mean by mimicking natural responses? :confused: