How the world sees the US -- NON-politically

[garak]

We all know the political situation, so let's not even go there.

But I find myself seeing certain attitudes and whatnot that Americans have about people from other places -- French are pompous and snooty, Aussies are jolly and goofy and generally nuts a la Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee. Swiss live in the mountains and are neutral robots, and the English are amusingly regal and drive funny little cars.

So.. how does everyone else view Americans? What does our accent "sound like"? Etc.

[Shai Gar]

it grates on my nerves like a blunt cheesegrater rubbing down my spine, like nails running down a blackboard.

but i see americans as overweight people who dont vote, eat at maccas all the time, are obsessed with celebrities, who dont care about the environment, or other people in the world other than yanks and occasionally as retards.. but that is just the iowa INTPs i know.. oh, wait.. heh

[garak]

What about the accent man??

[Sam172]

Your accent irritates me. Especially the texan draaawwll.

I find American culture quite annoying too. The American way of life, which is materially driven and oh so patriotic in some places.

I fear I've insulted a number of people here....I know, I speak to a number of Americans of a regular basis and the eccent just gets up my nose...kinda like pepper spray.

And don't you just hate 'super size' stuff?
'Gas' irritates me....we use Petrolium spirit in this country....not gas...so I supposed anything opposed to my way gets at me :p.



What is it with those white houses too....

[misutii]

What is it with those white houses too....

we burnt it down in the war of 1812 so they had to re-paint it white

[Serotonin]

So.. how does everyone else view Americans? What does our accent "sound like"? Etc.

Like you're speaking from the back of your mouth. Aussies speak further to the front, British even further forward. American accent very nasal also.

Good:
Clever
Individualist
Inventive
Competitive
Competent
Stylish
Openness to Change (as opposed to British)
No Class System (also as opposed to British)
IMO American Literature outclasses British Literature.
Musical superiority and inventiveness. We owe an unpayable debt to the U.S. for bringing us the timeless genres of blues and jazz.


Bad:
Loud.
Self-aggrandizing.
Aggressive.
Overly-Patriotic.
Obsessed with self-image.
Shallow.
Contemptuous of weakness, failure or prevarication.
Too eager to convince others how to live their lives and what to believe in.
A never-ending culture of violence and paranoia that characterises America. Whenever I think of the cultural milieu of the U.S. violence, guns, aggression and the subsequent fear it engenders immediately spring to mind.

[Shai Gar]

couldnt have said it better myself serotonin, in fact i didnt.

oh and i DID mention the accent, if you notice the first line of my first post

[Lee]

I am not to fond of the american accent (on most people), but other than that I do not really dislike anything american, it is what it is, I do not resent it... politically or socially.

[glassmoon]

garak - I think you started a big snow ball rolling down...

About the topic, Well, I don't like Jazz, so concerning music, UK takes the US big time (Beatles, Pink Floyed, Queen...)...

I think many Americans don't realize how the rest of the world view them, it could be a real eye-opener.

[Hypnos]

Like you're speaking from the back of your mouth. Aussies speak further to the front, British even further forward. American accent very nasal also.

Good:
Clever
Individualist
Inventive
Competitive
Competent
Stylish
Openness to Change (as opposed to British)
No Class System (also as opposed to British)
IMO American Literature outclasses British Literature.
Musical superiority and inventiveness. We owe an unpayable debt to the U.S. for bringing us the timeless genres of blues and jazz.


Bad:
Loud.
Self-aggrandizing.
Aggressive.
Overly-Patriotic.
Obsessed with self-image.
Shallow.
Contemptuous of weakness, failure or prevarication.
Too eager to convince others how to live their lives and what to believe in.
A never-ending culture of violence and paranoia that characterises America. Whenever I think of the cultural milieu of the U.S. violence, guns, aggression and the subsequent fear it engenders immediately spring to mind.
Apart from the patriotism, I submit that the two sets are obverses of one another.

Now, go eat your Big Mac and submit to our weapons inspectors.

[Serotonin]

Apart from the patriotism, I submit that the two sets are obverses of one another.

Now, go eat your Big Mac and submit to our weapons inspectors.

Make me. :P

Obverse to openness to change?
Obverse to literary and musical talent?

[nihilist]

The way I see it:
America as a government (and corporation) is like the insecure, self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing, hot-tempered school bully(the kind of kid who gained prestige by subjugating others).
Americans as a population are the feeble brained but generally good-hearted denizens who are drawn to what appears to them iconoclastic and masculine charisma.

[cathmc]

I'm an American currently living abroad.
In the last 6 months, on 2 different occasions Brits have told me that they assumed I was Canadian b/c basically I wasn't obnoxious enough to be American. Talk about your back-handed compliments! And I'm sure Canadians love to be thought of as just like Americans...only nicer.
Anyway - like so many stereotypes the loud, obnoxious American stereotype has some connection to reality, but becomes exaggerated beyond the truth. The price we pay for having our pop culture (as well as our politics) shoved down the world's throat.
(Not that my British friends are complaining that much. Inexplicably, they think 'Friends' is absolutely brilliant.)

[Robespierre]

people who dont vote

At least we still have the option to vote or not. Your overlords won't allow you to refuse to vote without some sort of fine or something.

[Serotonin]

At least we still have the option to vote or not. Your overlords won't allow you to refuse to vote without some sort of fine or something.

Perversely I like the idea of people being forced to engage in the political process. Grabbing them by the arm and hauling them out of their easy chair, and forcing them to think about their situation. It's no different to forcing children to go to school (Before you start on about minors vs. mature adults, there are children who are infinitely more intelligent and politically aware than some adults.... your argument won't wash).
I'm sure compulsory voting pisses a lot of people off... but I think it should stay.

[Vagabond]

I just *strongly* dislike the politics, but you said not to go there. :P

(And you do have a bunch of different accents, so you need to specify. Heheh)

[Dunearhp]

The US needs compulsory preferential voting. You don't really live in a democracy unless everyone participates. It is those people who don't have a fixed permanent preference that make elections interesting. If you really don't want to vote you can drop your unmarked ballot in the box.

I relation to the topic question, I think others have already covered it.

[SheepDog]

If they would make "none of the above" a binding voting option, I'd vote every time.

[Lee]

Democracy has never been about proportional representation of the population's views, it has always been about proportional representation of the views of those that care enough to vote. Would it even work if everybody voted? do you want everybody to vote? even if they do not care?

[YardGnome]

I know this will just reinforce the negative stereotype Americans have but then again, god knows I agree. Although you can't say it for all Americans, but most.

A friend of mine in the U.S. Navy was stationed in Europe for a brief stint. He's a bit self-absorbed, very much like George Costanza on Seinfeld or Larry David on Curb your Enthusiasm. In other words he's an aquired taste as far as friends are concerned. But I understand him and find his antics very amusing.

Regardless, he was at some social function, a bar or something like that (doesn't really matter), and two French women made some degrading comment about Americans along these lines.

"Americans are so arrogant."

To which he replied.

"That's because we're the fucking best!"

I just found this incredibly amusing, ironic and true...

[jyakulis]

garak - I think you started a big snow ball rolling down...

About the topic, Well, I don't like Jazz, so concerning music, UK takes the US big time (Beatles, Pink Floyed, Queen...)...

I think many Americans don't realize how the rest of the world view them, it could be a real eye-opener.


Rolling stones, the clash, the sex pistols, bowie, the smiths, joy division....it goes on and on that's why i like the english so much.

[crule81]

Rolling stones, the clash, the sex pistols, bowie, the smiths, joy division....it goes on and on that's why i like the english so much.

All of my favorite bands are from outside of the US. The only TRULY GREAT Americans who are considered to be in the rock genre are Bruce Springsteen and Bob Dylan.

[crule81]

ApetheDog and I touched on it in another thread a few weeks back, but Americans are louder and more annoying in foreign countries than other nationalities. My step-father acts like a cab driver trying to navigate Manhattan at rush hour. He took this behavior to Europe and it annoyed the hell out of me. He and I usually don't fight, but by the end of the trip, I couldn't stand being around him. He had a lot of trouble figuring out how parking and currency works. He got pissed at German parking attendants who attempted to make him park in a certain area. He also didn't realize that at some automated lots, one pays for the parking at a machine inside of the lot and then feeds the receipt to a machine that lets the car out. He couldn't figure out how it worked and allowed a long line of cars to accumulate behind him. The Germans were too polite to get angry at him at first, but weren't outgoing enough to help a foreigner. Finally, when someone did toot a horn, he got out, began to waive his arms, and yell, "It's not our fault, we're Polish tourists!"

[Claverhouse]

Aside from politics... I'm not in the least interested in the place and don't ever want to visit any part. I wouldn't admire their domestic life, nor their stridently egalitarian business-dominated and politically-correct values; nor great wealth, unless channelled into living art. Apart from the War between the States, there's no historical interest or 'past'. And a present/future based on mob-rule aka democracy, and aggressive capitalism makes it as attractive as living in Korea to me. Still, if they like it and admire their way of doing things, good luck to them: I imagine they've finally got over their expectation of being loved by the rest of the world. And many parts of the continent have great natural beauty.

Providing they settle down and realise that they, like the other parts of the world, are only a small, not particularly significant, portion of the world and stop trying to impose their own cultural beliefs on others, they will be respected by all ( except mayhap for Shai Gar ).

Faults ? But when there are so many people and so many diverse beliefs/ethnicities/local cultures it is inapposite to talk of national faults or virtues. Still, one of life's little ironies is that nations always speak of the qualities they most despise in others, which are actually those which most apply to them. Thus the Irish proclaim a hatred of informing, when this is a national sport; the English proclaim their laid-back self-control when they have always been a nation of hysterics; The Americans proclaim their manly independence and self-reliance, when they rely on their government to fix everything and are fawning to anyone that seems superior: the wealthy, the successful, whichever crook wins the presidency merely because he won more votes than the other chap, eurotrash, the Kennedies... the list goes ever on.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[booyalab]

I find it interesting to read all of these perceptions of Americans and I think a lot of them are probably as true as they can be given the subjectivity involved, but I dont think most foreigners realize that people vary from region to region. I think the only generalization you can make about the populations of ALL of the US regions compared to other countries is that we're probably more extroverted and straight forward. People in the midwest are generally more 'simple' (not dumb, but with no pretense) than the people on either coasts but less outgoing than southerners. People on the east coast are louder and/or more educated-acting (people seem more educated on the upper east coast too). People in the south are 'simple' but super polite and friendly. People on the lower west coast are consumed with image and 'fun-loving' (total SP place). People in the west (east of the west coast, west/south of the midwest) seem very relaxed and down to earth.

Even though I'm an American, I think I'm somewhat qualified to answer this because I've been to most of the states and about 10 other countries. I also lived overseas for 2 years.

[joft]

One of my biggest pet peeves with American culture is the persistence of the in-your-face attempts to convince you that being in-your-face and super confident and even arrogant is the best way to be. And if you do it, nothing will ever go wrong for you, you can just keep on smiling and thinking you're right about everything and everything will fall into place for you

[Arcades]

You forgot Alaska. We .... uummmm.... like avoiding mainland reality? No were not an island, but we are seperated from the other 48 states by a huge expance called Canada. Odd place canada. I think we would get along well with people from NZ.

[glassmoon]

Rolling stones, the clash, the sex pistols, bowie, the smiths, joy division....it goes on and on that's why i like the english so much.
I forgot to mention on the other hand The Doors... (sorry), and that america started what the british took forward so skillfully (rock).

[joft]

Oh yeah, I don't know how it's gone unmentioned so far, but what about the blatant, unapologetic marriage of our religion to everything political. The American pulpit is and seems to always have been a soap box for the clergy to give their political opinions on everything with the authority of God. Christians here unite and take action with surprising zeal over statues of the Ten Commandments being removed from a court room, or atheists trying to get a manger scene removed from public property around Christmas, or homosexuals trying to gain equal legal status for their partnerships, or the phrases "under God" or "in God we trust" being taken out of political contexts.

Terrorists attack our symbols of economic superiority and a government/military building... and of course, church attendance goes way up. The terrorists try telling us that they're doing it because of our economic system extending into every nation on earth that can't defend itself, neo-colonialism, etc, but of course we know better. They're doing it because they're damn muslim crazies who think Allah's gonna give them 79 virgins! And they only managed to pull it off anyway because God removed his protection of our nation because we legalized abortion and took prayer out of schools.

The amount of inter- and intra-denominational debate over what role the U.S. will have in the "end times" and whether or not one can find the U.S. in biblical prophecy is staggering. I could go on about this for a while longer but I'll stop (it's becoming more of a rant/rave post than a world issue post)

[coffeezombie]

I agree that most Americans are probably loud and extroverted compared to Brits and Aussies, no matter what part of the country they are from. On the other hand, politically Americans are quite different depending upon what part of the country that particular American is from. Despite all the confusing directions Booyalab supplied, her stereotypes are pretty much on the mark, although she neglected to mention that southerners typically find northerners "rude" in this country, while we consider southerners to generally be a bunch of uneducated rednecks. There's quite a political and cultural divide in this country, as indicated by the latest presidential polls. There may be a similar east/west divide in the sense of being easterners being tense aristocratic elitists always on the move while westerners are much more laid back about life in general, except in southern California, where cultivating a cool "image" is the most important quality for people.

Accents are a silly thing to judge. Usually how one judges an accent is based upon one's initial perception of that region/country to begin with.

[booyalab]

One of my biggest pet peeves with American culture is the persistence of the in-your-face attempts to convince you that being in-your-face and super confident and even arrogant is the best way to be. And if you do it, nothing will ever go wrong for you, you can just keep on smiling and thinking you're right about everything and everything will fall into place for you

when the REAL better way is to be like Europeans, right? At least we're honest about our intentions.

[booyalab]

northerners consider southerners to generally be a bunch of uneducated rednecks.

I think the people that haven't been to the south believe that. Have you been there? My experience has been they're, for the most part, very sweet people.

[coffeezombie]

I think the people that haven't been to the south believe that. Have you been there? My experience has been they're, for the most part, very sweet people.

Oh yeah, I most certainly have. I don't think they are uneducated rednecks but I have other problems with southern culture, namely the seeming expectation that you have to be some kind of gregarious, extroverted feeler in order to fit in. I have never experienced this in my years of living both in the north and in the Kansas City area, although those two areas have some regional differences of their own.

[MacGuffin]

I agree that most Americans are probably loud and extroverted compared to Brits and Aussies
[spits out drink]

Even the Aussies?!?

[joft]

when the REAL better way is to be like Europeans, right? At least we're honest about our intentions. Oh really? I guess that would make us the only people on earth who are honest about our intentions.

I didn't say it was better to be European. I'm just annoyed by a culture that openly admits that it teaches us it's better to be an asshole. I don't think Europe is the opposite of this anyway, more like Japan.

[coffeezombie]

[spits out drink]

Even the Aussies?!?

Aussies are generally garrulous but not loud. They are certainly louder than Brits, of course. Overall the typical Aussie might talk more than the typical American, just not as loudly except when drinking. Most Americans are loud all the time and like to have it made known loudly everywhere they go that they are Americans. I couldn't believe how loud some of our fellow Americans were in London when I was there.

[YardGnome]

I think the people that haven't been to the south believe that. Have you been there? My experience has been they're, for the most part, very sweet people.

A group of friends and I were travelling down to Tennessee once. We stopped in a diner for some breakfast, and when a friend of mine said.

"Hold the grits."

The entire diner stopped what they were doing, all eyes on the crazy hippy northerners... Wasn't very sweet to say the least :(

[booyalab]

Oh really? I guess that would make us the only people on earth who are honest about our intentions.

I didn't say it was better to be European. I'm just annoyed by a culture that openly admits that it teaches us it's better to be an asshole. I don't think Europe is the opposite of this anyway, more like Japan.

Hmm, I wonder who's largely responsible for Japan no longer being asshole-ish. (not to mention that Japan was a HUGE warrior culture for the longest time, familiar with any far-eastern history?)

I can't decide if your obsessive bias stems from a hatred of extroverts or America itself.

[coffeezombie]

A group of friends and I were travelling down to Tennessee once. We stopped in a diner for some breakfast, and when a friend of mine said.

"Hold the grits."


Yes, "grits culture" is humorous. I still remember the first time I asked some Texan what he was putting in the microwave in the morning and he just looked at me funny.

One thing that bothered me about being in Texas was when northerners started saying "Y'all." Come on, hold onto your culture a little better, people. At least I never heard any northerners say "fixin'" It was amusing to see even the newspapers down there use the word "fixing" in their headlines.

[booyalab]

A group of friends and I were travelling down to Tennessee once. We stopped in a diner for some breakfast, and when a friend of mine said.

"Hold the grits."

The entire diner stopped what they were doing, all eyes on the crazy hippy northerners... Wasn't very sweet to say the least :(

haha, they like their grits...blech

[crule81]

I would like to remind everyone that the NBA brawl with at the Detroit-Indiana game was the worst case of sports-related violence in the major professional sports. That wouldn't even make the news in most Europeans countries. The British have been known to be the worse offenders in this area, so I would hesitate to say that they are generally less loud and extroverted than Americans - it just depends on the situation.

[Serotonin]

Aussies are generally garrulous but not loud. They are certainly louder than Brits, of course. Overall the typical Aussie might talk more than the typical American, just not as loudly except when drinking. Most Americans are loud all the time and like to have it made known loudly everywhere they go that they are Americans. I couldn't believe how loud some of our fellow Americans were in London when I was there.

You'd be surprised. Typical Australian backpacker = loud, gregarious and likes to drink beer, but in the wide brown land us less travelly types keep to ourselves quite a lot.

[coffeezombie]

You'd be surprised. Typical Australian backpacker = loud, gregarious and likes to drink beer, but in the wide brown land us less travelly types keep to ourselves quite a lot.

Right. I am certainly not a loud American either. I'm even quieter than most Brits. Of course, the Aussies I've managed to meet in my travels were mostly loud backpackers. But I still don't think they are as loud as Americans, although they certainly all love to talk and I enjoyed their curiosity about my country.

[crule81]

Yes, "grits culture" is humorous. I still remember the first time I asked some Texan what he was putting in the microwave in the morning and he just looked at me funny.

One thing that bothered me about being in Texas was when northerners started saying "Y'all." Come on, hold onto your culture a little better, people. At least I never heard any northerners say "fixin'" It was amusing to see even the newspapers down there use the word "fixing" in their headlines.

I have nothing against y'all despite my Northern Heritage. We need something less ackward than "you all" and less vague than simply "you" when speaking to a group of people. Like "voi/Loro" in Italian or "vosotros/ustedes" in Spanish.

[glassmoon]

"grits culture"

"fixin'"What's that??

[booyalab]

I would like to remind everyone that the NBA brawl with at the Detroit-Indiana game was the worst case of sports-related violence in the major professional sports. That wouldn't even make the news in most Europeans countries. The British have been known to be the worse offenders in this area, so I would hesitate to say that they are generally less loud and extroverted than Americans - it just depends on the situation.

yeah.....and I've had some British friends tell me that bar fights are common in the UK. I dont think bar fights have been that common in the US since most of the Irish were directly descended.

[booyalab]

I have nothing against y'all despite my Northern Heritage. We need something less ackward than "you all" and less vague than simply "you" when speaking to a group of people. Like "voi/Loro" in Italian or "vosotros/ustedes" in Spanish.

"you guys!" :lol:

[joft]

Actually my excessive bias stems from knowing a lot of Japanese people personally, as well as having studied their past and current culture a bit. They were a warrior culture for a very long time, but I don't see how you equate warrior culture with assholishness. Their entire political system during the time that they were a warrior culture was based on honor, trust, loyalty; things that were also very much required of the warriors themselves. And another thing that remained a very important part of their culture since then until now is the extreme politeness and apologetic humility, even self-degradation. But I know that being the straightforward assholes we are, we can only conclude that their politeness is fake and a show and they're really just being dishonest, so I understand your excessive bias also.

For the record, I don't hate Americans or extroverts.

[booyalab]

Actually my excessive bias stems from knowing a lot of Japanese people personally, as well as having studied their past and current culture a bit. They were a warrior culture for a very long time, but I don't see how you equate warrior culture with assholishness. Their entire political system during the time that they were a warrior culture was based on honor, trust, loyalty; things that were also very much required of the warriors themselves. And another thing that remained a very important part of their culture since then until now is the extreme politeness and apologetic humility, even self-degradation. But I know that being the straightforward assholes we are, we can only conclude that their politeness is fake and a show and they're really just being dishonest, so I understand your excessive bias also.

For the record, I don't hate Americans or extroverts.

Oh yeah, self-degredation is much better.
Not "fake" so much as "hypocritical" as one thing people like to criticize Americans about (imposing values/self on other countries) is the same thing they are doing by implying they should be different. By not admitting/acknowledging that they want Americans to be different, but saying Americans want THEM to be different, they are being hypocritical.

Well, if I was to think the defining principle of a country was asshole-ism I'd hate them, so I guess I was just projecting. Apologies.

[coffeezombie]

I have nothing against y'all despite my Northern Heritage. We need something less ackward than "you all" and less vague than simply "you" when speaking to a group of people. Like "voi/Loro" in Italian or "vosotros/ustedes" in Spanish.

We could go back to "thou" and "you" like in the past.

[Claverhouse]

Loads of Brits are now loud and uncouth. Heavy yobs in long shorts and shaven heads ( not a cult thing, just their natural attire ) swilling 10 pints of lager and watching football: even the girls have now started doing the same and beat each other up outside clubs.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Serotonin]

Oh yeah, self-degredation is much better.
Not "fake" so much as "hypocritical" as one thing people like to criticize Americans about (imposing values/self on other countries) is the same thing they are doing by implying they should be different. By not admitting/acknowledging that they want Americans to be different, but saying Americans want THEM to be different, they are being hypocritical.


:huh: You're splitting hairs here. Americans can do what they want/be who they want in their own country, it's when multinationals aggressively pushing Starbucks, McDonalds, Everybody Loves Raymond etc. in a bid to monopolise other cultures that other countries get shitty. American tourists I find for the most part are fine, but the populist culture push gets overwhelming at times. STICK TO YOUR OWN!!!

[joft]

I don't think it's inherently hypocritical to complain about someone else being self-imposing. It's most likely being done in an entirely defensive way and only in regard to our one nation, whereas we do it in regards to every other nation. In effect, we think everyone should be like us, others think we just shouldn't be the way we are. They're not really actively imposing anything on us either. We are actively imposing ourselves on the rest of the world; financially, culturally, militarily.

[coffeezombie]

Well, the reason you people in other countries get Everybody Loves Raymond is because some people want to watch it, I assume.

[booyalab]

:huh: You're splitting hairs here. Americans can do what they want/be who they want in their own country, it's when multinationals aggressively pushing Starbucks, McDonalds, Everybody Loves Raymond etc. in a bid to monopolise other cultures that other countries get shitty. American tourists I find for the most part are fine, but the populist culture push gets overwhelming at times. STICK TO YOUR OWN!!!

So it's our fault that you guys want that shit?


I don't think it's inherently hypocritical to complain about someone else being self-imposing. It's most likely being done in an entirely defensive way and only in regard to our one nation, whereas we do it in regards to every other nation. In effect, we think everyone should be like us, others think we just shouldn't be the way we are. They're not really actively imposing anything on us either. We are actively imposing ourselves on the rest of the world; financially, culturally, militarily.

I define imposing as suggestive, since Bush isn't ACTUALLY Hitler or Stalin, IMHO. Therefore there is a hypocrisy because we're not force-feeding you McDonalds. This is a weird parallel, but private businesses are like artwork, in that the people it's directed at decide what effect it will have on them. I think the "imposing" argument is mostly ridiculous. Whiners. If you dont want Starbucks in your quaint little European town, tell everyone who's keeping it in business.

[booyalab]

Well, the reason you people in other countries get Everybody Loves Raymond is because some people want to watch it, I assume.

Thank you.

[Serotonin]

Well, the reason you people in other countries get Everybody Loves Raymond is because some people want to watch it, I assume.

Not everyone loves raymond.



Everybody loves lazy stereotyping of male roles

April 11, 2005




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Raymond is signing off and not a moment too soon, writes Alison Cameron. Not a moment too soon.


For the past nine years the family sitcom Everyone Loves Raymond has been one of the most popular comedy shows in both the US and Australia.


Now it is coming to an end, with the final episode due to screen in the next month or so. This is usually the moment when everyone mourns the passing of a great comedic institution. However, in the case of Everybody Loves Raymond, it should be a time for celebration. Finally some of the worst cliched male stereotypes on TV are being laid to rest. The only downside is that we will have to suffer them in the repeat episodes.


The brainchild of comedian Ray Romano, Everybody Loves Raymond is a sitcom weaved around the Barone family. Ray is a successful sportswriter and married to Debra, a "stay-at-home mum". His interfering parents live across the street and there is also a brother Robert who provides a sibling rivalry subplot.


Most of the series is set in the family home but as soon as Ray walks in the front door he mysteriously loses any of the abilities that make him a success outside. He is a thoughtless husband and a poor father interested only in television, food and sex. Cue laughter.

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He is a stereotyped manchild who spends much of his time trying to shirk his responsibilities.


In one show while trying to extricate himself from some parental duties he says to his wife: "You're so great with the kids you know what to do. If it were up to me they'd be eating cereal for dinner and wearing the boxes."


The message is clear: a man can't be trusted with his own children, only a woman can care for them adequately. It is an efficient way to keep men out of the kitchen and women in it.


Similarly the show pushes the idea that women, or at least wives like Debra, aren't very interested in sex while it is all husbands like Ray can think about.


In one episode, Debra's Workout, the situation is reversed. The official website gives a succinct description of the show: "Ray is bewildered but not altogether displeased when Debra starts initiating sex on a more than regular basis."


Obviously something is very out of kilter when a wife is pestering her husband for sex. No wonder the poor man is bewildered.


But are we taking it all too seriously? After all, it is supposed to be comedy.


Dr Marjorie Kibby, senior lecturer in communication and culture at Newcastle University has researched the image of men in the media and says comedy often has more edge than drama and is more likely to pick up the latest trends.


"The response I get is that it is just fun but the things we ridicule in society are things we devalue," she said. "So what is operating here?


"I think we are supposed to be flattered to be able to treat the adult males in our lives as boys."


When it comes to the character of Ray she is blunt: "He is an extremely poor role model, he is an ineffective parent and a bad husband and the program says that it is charmingly endearing to be these things."


Everybody Loves Raymond is not the only offender. Shows such as Malcolm in the Middle, The Simpsons and According to Jim have their own versions of the inept father.


The hands-off dad and strict gender roles seems like a throwback to the 1950s and Kibby believes this image is popular because we want to hark back to the past. "It is a reaction to a level of dissatisfaction with current gender roles and a certain level of nostalgia for the apparently cut and dried roles of the past," she said.


When the actor Patricia Heaton, who plays Debra, was asked why men are constantly portrayed as bumbling idiots she told USA Today: "Home life is a foreign environment for most guys. So it's natural to show them being idiots at home."


Home is not a foreign environment for a lot of men. It is actually where they love to be. By perpetuating the lie that men would rather stay late at work than go home and see their children, employers can continue to demand long hours from their workers.


We can do without these cliched stereotypes that shut down choices. It is time to check the date and find some relevant characters for the new millennium. Ray's dead - let's party.


Alison Cameron is a freelance journalist.

[booyalab]

"you're splitting hairs here"

[In...TP]

I'm fixin to go out and give my neighbor a holler. Tomayder plants are in the ground.

http://tvbb.zap2it.com/printthread.php?Cat=&Board=vanuatu&main=123723&type=thread

[joft]

I think the "imposing" argument is mostly ridiculous. Whiners. If you dont want Starbucks in your quaint little European town, tell everyone who's keeping it in business.If only it really did work that way...

[Geoff]

:huh: You're splitting hairs here. Americans can do what they want/be who they want in their own country, it's when multinationals aggressively pushing Starbucks, McDonalds, Everybody Loves Raymond etc. in a bid to monopolise other cultures that other countries get shitty. American tourists I find for the most part are fine, but the populist culture push gets overwhelming at times. STICK TO YOUR OWN!!!

America doesnt make us accept this stuff. The general people buy it. However, the big multinationals can enforce it a certain extent by buying out the local competition (like when, in the UK, Burger King bought the whole of the UK Burger chain, Wimpy).

I dont admire these multinationals but I dont blame them because people here want to buy from them.

-Geoff

[coffeezombie]

If only it really did work that way...

Well, the way it works is that places like Starbucks can afford higher rents and cheaper prices, so they drive all the smaller companies out of business on the main "tourist routes." That still doesn't mean that people have to go to those places, but it is incredibly inconvenient for tourists not to go to those places. I can see both sides of the argument here.

[Geoff]

I went to Starbucks at lunchtime. I dont see the problem providing they are not acting illegally (unfair monopoly or bribery) in getting the franchises. Which I doubt they are.

When they buy an entire chain and rebrand it I think the problem is not with Starbucks, but rather the system for allowing the creation of an unfair complex monopoly without veto.

-Geoff

[MacGuffin]

Another question is why non-U.S. companies aren't trying to force their crap on Americans. It is not like Americans invented capitalism.

[codeElemental]

When I've been abroad I've asked people that same question, and got some interesting answers. The most consistent point (from the Australians, in particular) was a belief that the US is indescribably violent and that we're all dodging bullets on a daily basis. It was also assumed that everyone was either like the typical NYC stereotype (loud, aggressive, rude) or the typical LA stereotype (shallow, braindead, celebrity obsessed). I can't blame them, really, since 95% of all TV characters seem to fit into one of those two categories (and take place in one of those two cities). Of course, I guess the wonderfully articulate speeches from the mad cowboy presently in charge don't help the issue.

I did get a lot of amusement from one couple in Brisbane, though, who'd visited the US on numerous occasions, since the two things they raved at length about were Las Vegas and the US Highway system, with the national parks coming in third.

Of course, my life is nothing like that, and I've never been the victim of any sort of crime stateside (though I did have my camera, wallet, money etc stolen in New Zealand when I was twelve, but I'll blame that on the individual, not the country...I'm thankful for travellers checks), and I've known innumerable people who *don't* fit those two stereotypes, but that probably goes without saying...our stereotypes of other countries are just as far off.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now, and say to all those from Australia, NZ, and the UK, nice places you've got there, glad I got a chance to visit.

(I was going to weigh in on Serotonin's comments, but in the time it takes be distracted by coworkers, everyone else got to it first... but I'll be sure to rage against Australia encroaching on me next time I buy a bottle of your wine....)

[HeyBooU]

Oh yeah, I most certainly have. I don't think they are uneducated rednecks but I have other problems with southern culture, namely the seeming expectation that you have to be some kind of gregarious, extroverted feeler in order to fit in. I have never experienced this in my years of living both in the north and in the Kansas City area, although those two areas have some regional differences of their own.
I have missed that expectation to be a "gregarious, extroverted feeler." Maybe, I'm used to it but I don't see it.

[HeyBooU]

A group of friends and I were travelling down to Tennessee once. We stopped in a diner for some breakfast, and when a friend of mine said.

"Hold the grits."

The entire diner stopped what they were doing, all eyes on the crazy hippy northerners... Wasn't very sweet to say the least :( Hahaha, must have been a Waffle House.

edit: Oh yes, and I am from the south and do not like grits.

[Geoff]

Can someone tell me what grits even are? Then I will understand the joke!

-Geoff

[coffeezombie]

Another question is why non-U.S. companies aren't trying to force their crap on Americans. It is not like Americans invented capitalism.

Yeah, I think it pisses non-Americans off that they are more adaptable when it comes to accepting our culture but we are less adaptable at accepting theirs. Of course, we buy many Japanese and German cars.

[Claverhouse]

One little xenophobe's guide to the USA said grits were the reason why the South lost.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[codeElemental]

Hahaha, must have been a Waffle House.

Was it just the parts I saw, or are there one of those every half mile down there? It was eerie. Espeically jarring considering I come from the land where nobody's heard of sweet tea. ("uh, yeah, that's tea with sugar packets right?")

[coffeezombie]

Can someone tell me what grits even are? Then I will understand the joke!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grits

[coffeezombie]

Was it just the parts I saw, or are there one of those every half mile down there? It was eerie. Espeically jarring considering I come from the land where nobody's heard of sweet tea. ("uh, yeah, that's tea with sugar packets right?")

When my brother and I were young, instead of playing the license plate game like most kids do in cars when traveling, we played the "Waffle House" game when traveling to the south. The first person to see the Waffle House at each exit scored a point.

[Shai Gar]

Providing they settle down and realise that they, like the other parts of the world, are only a small, not particularly significant, portion of the world and stop trying to impose their own cultural beliefs on others, they will be respected by all ( except mayhap for Shai Gar ).
they do this and i will stop planning my terror crusade and they will raise in my eyes to simple fools, much like everyone else

[Shai Gar]

when the REAL better way is to be like Europeans, right? At least we're honest about our intentions. yeah thats right, go liberate and bring democracy and economic freedom to someone else

[HeyBooU]

Was it just the parts I saw, or are there one of those every half mile down there? It was eerie. Espeically jarring considering I come from the land where nobody's heard of sweet tea. ("uh, yeah, that's tea with sugar packets right?")
No, they are EVERYWHERE.

[Shai Gar]

Hmm, I wonder who's largely responsible for Japan no longer being asshole-ish. (not to mention that Japan was a HUGE warrior culture for the longest time, familiar with any far-eastern history?)

I wonder who it was that originally bombed them into submission because they wanted peace and isolation, and none of this "free trade" garbage in the first place

[In...TP]

Hmmm, shrimp 'n grits...

[Serotonin]

Peace and isolation Shai? For fuck's sake they bombed us in WWII!!!

[Shai Gar]

Actually my excessive bias stems from knowing a lot of Japanese people personally, as well as having studied their past and current culture a bit. They were a warrior culture for a very long time, but I don't see how you equate warrior culture with assholishness. Their entire political system during the time that they were a warrior culture was based on honor, trust, loyalty; things that were also very much required of the warriors themselves. And another thing that remained a very important part of their culture since then until now is the extreme politeness and apologetic humility, even self-degradation. But I know that being the straightforward assholes we are, we can only conclude that their politeness is fake and a show and they're really just being dishonest, so I understand your excessive bias also.
i was fixin' to say this but i was lazy, at least ya'll did it for me

[codeElemental]

I wonder who it was that originally bombed them into submission because they wanted peace and isolation, and none of this "free trade" garbage in the first place

Since of course, killing hundreds of thousands of the chinese for no apparent purpose is such a peaceful endeavor....

[Shai Gar]

Loads of Brits are now loud and uncouth. Heavy yobs in long shorts and shaven heads ( not a cult thing, just their natural attire ) swilling 10 pints of lager and watching football: even the girls have now started doing the same and beat each other up outside clubs.



Claverhouse :ph34r:
disgusting isnt it

[Shai Gar]

Peace and isolation Shai? For fuck's sake they bombed us in WWII!!! that was AFTER the americans bombed them in the 19th century

[Shai Gar]

Well, the reason you people in other countries get Everybody Loves Raymond is because some people want to watch it, I assume.
you dont really read the free trade documents that get drawn up do you?

p.s. that isnt the reason that they are on the air

[codeElemental]

you dont really read the free trade documents that get drawn up do you?

p.s. that isnt the reason that they are on the air

No, it's some great giant plot to make you all hate Ray Romano as much as we do...

[Shai Gar]

So it's our fault that you guys want that shit? we dont, refer to one of my above posts



I define imposing as suggestive, since Bush isn't ACTUALLY Hitler or Stalin, IMHO. no he isnt, he is worse, i am not jonathan, i am richard, george isnt illyic he is george

[Shai Gar]

our stereotypes of other countries are just as far off.
further off, our basis for american stereotypes come from your own media and from what we see of your military.

your basis for stereotypes of other countries come from your own media and not theirs..

[Shai Gar]

**done with argument, i came late and i wanted to say a few things but i have said them and am moving on**

[Serotonin]

I think we're pissing the Yanks here mightily at the moment.
Conciliatory words: I'm not attacking anyone here personally. Facing up to Australia's own cultural milieu... it's not like it's particularly sophisticated anyway.
Just that the barrage of CSI, Law and Order, The OC, Cold Case, Raymond that we see on our television all the time really disappoints me. I just don't watch it and watch docos on Ancient Mesopotamia instead on SBS - a "specialist interest" channel, which is anything but.
America, with all its diversity, has its wonderful cultural gifts, but they're just drowned out by the crap we see. Basically I have to do my homework to find out what's good and ignore the rest.

PS quieten down Shai.

[garak]

The "loud tourist" thing is interesting. My govt teacher was telling me about some English guys he was talking with in a bar in Texas, and they were being loud and obnoxious and totally picking a fight with some big guy. Said teacher was using this anecdote to reinforce the image that the British have as crazy drunk brawlers. And I know most Americans see Aussies as loud and crazy. Maybe all three countries tend to see people from the other two as being loud and obnoxious? Maybe because you never really notice the quiet foreigners? (since you generally can't tell them apart physically)

[codeElemental]

I think we're pissing the Yanks here mightily at the moment.
Conciliatory words: I'm not attacking anyone here personally. Facing up to Australia's own cultural milieu... it's not like it's particularly sophisticated anyway.
Just that the barrage of CSI, Law and Order, The OC, Cold Case, Raymond that we see on our television all the time really disappoints me. I just don't watch it and watch docos on Ancient Mesopotamia instead on SBS - a "specialist interest" channel, which is anything but.
America, with all its diversity, has its wonderful cultural gifts, but they're just drowned out by the crap we see. Basically I have to do my homework to find out what's good and ignore the rest.

PS quieten down Shai.

Can't say I'm particularly pissed off. I've seen those shows too, and I can assure you the barrage is just as tiresome here. If life were really anything like The OC, I'd hang myself.... I hadn't realized they exported that mess. I apologize on behalf of my countryfolk for that one.

[Shai Gar]

shant quiet down with what i know to be fact.

and, SBS, i love it, that channel shows australian programming that cannot be put onto the Australian Broadcasting Channel because there is too many american shows.

sure we are pissing on the americans but that is what they ASKED for, if i were to start a similar thread about australia i would want the same, BLATANT TRUTH ABOUT THEIR OPINIONS ON US.

gods i hate raymond, csi, big brother, survivor, the oc, law and order, cold case and all the rest of those shows

and why should a culture be sophisticated? i prefer simplicity and i am sure a lot of others do too, it helps in a world that is already complicated to have somewhere quiet and simple where you can study heaps, have good food and rest

[Shai Gar]

(since you generally can't tell them apart physically)
put a naked english chick, american chick, aussie chick, german chick, swedish chick, canadian chick all in a line up and you couldnt accurately guess their nation unless they spoke

[Shai Gar]

Can't say I'm particularly pissed off. I've seen those shows too, and I can assure you the barrage is just as tiresome here. If life were really anything like The OC, I'd hang myself.... I hadn't realized they exported that mess. I apologize on behalf of my countryfolk for that one.
i accept your apology, at school every tuesday and wednesday i have to hear about that crap from the students.

[garak]

Can't say I'm particularly pissed off. I've seen those shows too, and I can assure you the barrage is just as tiresome here. If life were really anything like The OC, I'd hang myself.... I hadn't realized they exported that mess. I apologize on behalf of my countryfolk for that one.
Haha yeah that's pretty awful. Personally I mostly watch cable news (CNN, MSNBC), discovery, and history channel. All that sitcom/soap opera/drama garbage stuff that "most" people watch.. ugh.

[Serotonin]

My housemate adores the OC. He'll let out a hoot every time some air-headed jock makes a sappy statement, or some hosegirl (thanks meshou) lets fly with a bitchy comment. It's ultimate happiness for him. Lest it be asked, he's an ESFP. We share a house, but live on different planets.

[Shai Gar]

i dont watch tv anymore, i have internet access

[Claverhouse]

put a naked english chick, american chick, aussie chick, german chick, swedish chick, canadian chick all in a line up and you couldnt accurately guess their nation unless they spoke
That's a very striking thought. I'm going to conduct a series of experiments. Actually it will be the same experiment repeated one hundred times to eliminate error.

Now to get funding and find out how to recruit volunteers.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Shai Gar]

i KNEW this forum would eventually spawn some legitimate study

[Hypnos]

Make me. :P
Don't make me Abu Ghraib your ass!


Obverse to openness to change?
Flakiness -- California is a good example (except the Bay Area, which is stodgy and conservative in its "progressiveness").


Obverse to literary and musical talent?
Kitsch -- it can't all be good.

BTW, "Everybody Loves Raymond" rocks -- a fascinating study in emotional entanglement and insecurities.

MacGuffin: We do get a ton of foreign products and motifs -- cars, clothing, foods, and some music. I'd wish we got more TV ... that show "Coupling" (the original version) was awesome.

[Shai Gar]

i assume that since you say the original version that america has made a version that is dubbed "more suitable for the american public"

[Hypnos]

i assume that since you say the original version that america has made a version that is dubbed "more suitable for the american public"
It was utter crap ... I think the public television airings of the original got higher ratings.

[crule81]

It's funny that while American ideas, such as fast food and Starbucks, are being exported by the US, American goods do not have a similar success, as the trade deficit indicates. Just looking at the car poll on this forum, most people would rather have a BMW than a Chevy (unless it's a Corvette, of course).

[MacGuffin]

MacGuffin: We do get a ton of foreign products and motifs -- cars, clothing, foods, and some music. I'd wish we got more TV ... that show "Coupling" (the original version) was awesome.
Yeah in limited areas I guess. We just dont get bombarded like we do to other countries.

[Geoff]

Yeah original coupling was awesome. How did the US version compare?

-Geoff

[MacGuffin]

Yeah original coupling was awesome. How did the US version compare?

-Geoff
It SUCKED.

[Geoff]

Shame.. was it that the UK humour was too racy (vibrators.. swinging.. masturbation.. bisexuality) for mainstream US?

-Geoff

[MacGuffin]

Shame.. was it that the UK humour was too racy (vibrators.. swinging.. masturbation.. bisexuality) for mainstream US?

-Geoff
It was just badly done. The timing was off, the acting.... did not go well. I only watched it like twice.

[Hypnos]

It's funny that while American ideas, such as fast food and Starbucks, are being exported by the US, American goods do not have a similar success, as the trade deficit indicates. Just looking at the car poll on this forum, most people would rather have a BMW than a Chevy (unless it's a Corvette, of course).
American wage-pricing is too high -- I'm surprised that _any_ commodity items can be sold abroad. Hell, Barbie doll production was moved from Taiwan to the mainland in 1987.

Some solutions:

* Admit more immigrants to provide cheap labor

* Let our low-tech manufacturing base die, redirecting resources to more lucrative industries

* Eliminate the minimum wage

[Pedro_The_Lion]

On the rock topic, there would have been no "English rock" had it not been for the blues progenitors (mostly african-american) of the late 19th century to about the mid 20th.

[ApeTheDog]

There is one 'type' of person that as far as I know only exists in america, and that is the 'whatever' saying girl who cares a lot about being popular and going to the mall. I sort of think she embodies the worst of America.

Overall, I'd say the general profile americans have abroad is one of rather satiated, immature and selfish materalists.

[Hypnos]

There is one 'type' of person that as far as I know only exists in america, and that is the 'whatever' saying girl who cares a lot about being popular and going to the mall. I sort of think she embodies the worst of America.

Overall, I'd say the general profile americans have abroad is one of rather satiated, immature and selfish materalists.
:rofl:

Cultures might be different, but people are the same everywhere. There are materialistic, disaffected girls all over the world, I assure you.

[ApeTheDog]

Oh yes, that's true. But the manifestation of the materialistic, disaffected girl appears very strong in the USA. From documentaries and movies (not the best sources, I admit) I get the impression as though being like that is an acceptable and even admirable thing, and that is not true where I live. I think it is only in the USA, and possibly japan - I don't know enough about their culture - somebody like that would be looked up to by most other students.

[Lee]

Americans are pretty much just like everybody else.. except with different sports, more food, bigger guns and more TV.

Peoples hate for america is irrational, even the politics side of it.

[Miss Anthropic]

I think the people that haven't been to the south believe that. Have you been there? My experience has been they're, for the most part, very sweet people.
If you aren't a minority, except in Texas you can be hispanic--but then that's pretty much majority in South and South Central at least

[Miss Anthropic]

i was fixin' to say this but i was lazy, at least ya'll did it for me
Shai Gar! I didn't know you were biligual.

[Miss Anthropic]

Can't say I'm particularly pissed off. I've seen those shows too, and I can assure you the barrage is just as tiresome here. If life were really anything like The OC, I'd hang myself.... I hadn't realized they exported that mess. I apologize on behalf of my countryfolk for that one.
Well, what about Baywatch? It was the most popular exported tv show for a long time. Germans loved David Hasselhof....

[Miss Anthropic]

It appears I am late for the party, this thread. Interesting insight from you all, or should I say y'all. I didn't hear anything that I wasn't already aware of. Something to consider about the US is the country is so large and as Booya pointed out separated culturally by regions that we are kind of like a bunch of different countries. It actually amazes me that the country works together at all. Lastly, garak's point about loud foreigners is valid. I can't stand loud Americans here in America. But unless you are very aware of clothing styles, for the most part foreigners don't stand out as foreign unless they are loud. Americans in France, or Aussies in America. I like to think that if I travelled abroad I could blend in and not be a total ass. I would just hope they thought I was Canadian. :whistle:

[snarled]

I like to think that if I travelled abroad I could blend in and not be a total ass. I would just hope they thought I was Canadian. :whistle:

I'm sure that you would be fine.

But yeah, that's the real test isn't it?

I've travelled extensively and been received with open arms when people find out where I'm from. It seems a shame that for Yanks the reception may be just a tad frostier (to say the least).

Why?

I'd be asking the same question.

Is junkie America finally waking up from it's ethnocentric overdose?

It does seem to be the vibe of late... or at least that's what I gather from your media. ;)

I sure hope so.

[Miss Anthropic]

I've travelled extensively and been received with open arms when people find out where I'm from. It seems a shame that for Yanks the reception may be just a tad frostier (to say the least).

I have an acquaintance who was fortunate enough to be able to spend a month in Paris. She is the essence of loud, obnoxious American-but she doesn't realize it. She comes across that way here, offending her peers! So I got an earful about how rude the French are (which I'm sure they can be, but I'm sure they saw her coming from a mile away.)



Why?

I'd be asking the same question.

Is junkie America finally waking up from it's ethnocentric overdose?

It does seem to be the vibe of late... or at least that's what I gather from your media. ;)

I sure hope so.

You can't believe wholly in anything our media puts out. It is all biased one way or another. I think America is still peacefully snoozing away in its ethnocentrism. As far as tourists go, all it takes is a small percentage of loud obnoxious ones, and it ruins it for the rest. If you have a good experience, you tell a couple people. If you have a bad experience you share it with all who will listen. It is the UGLY Americans who stick out and the rest of the world likes to share "Ugly American" stories. America is a big place with lots of people. Percentage-wise we have more 'Ugly Tourists' than the other countries.

[Thermo]

I didn't read much of the thread, but I will sum up what I think the world wants from America as an American.

What they want:
1.) our culture - the rest of the world likes blue jeans and MTV.
2.) our foreign Aid
3.) Our military protection

What they don't want:
1.) American nationalism
2.) Interference in foreign affairs

It is hypocritical to want our money, culture, and military protection and expect we don't want anything in return.

[Lee]

I didn't read much of the thread, but I will sum up what I think the world wants from America as an American.

What they want:
1.) our culture - the rest of the world likes blue jeans and MTV.
2.) our foreign Aid
3.) Our military protection

What they don't want:
1.) American nationalism
2.) Interference in foreign affairs

It is hypocritical to want our money, culture, and military protection and expect we don't want anything in return.It's not just hypocritical.. it's stupid.

I honestly have no idea what people expect of America sometimes, it's the the most powerful nation on earth and yet people expect it to just sit there and not want to exercise it's power to do what it feels is best for America !?! and they do want America's culture to become more like thiers ?!?

Too many people live in cloud cuckoo land!

(so I am ...like agreeing with you, does that make me INTJ :blink: )

[coffeezombie]

It's not just hypocritical.. it's stupid.

I honestly have no idea what people expect of America sometimes, it's the the most powerful nation on earth and yet people expect it to just sit there and not want to exercise it's power to do what it feels is best for America !?! and they do want America's culture to become more like thiers ?!?

Too many people live in cloud cuckoo land!

Well, the British did the same when they were most powerful. Personally, I'd rather we attempted to take care of things domestically and not attempt to stamp our presence everywhere. That seems to be the whole theme of any country that is the "most powerful," which is why I generally don't like power, politics or people in general.

[Thermo]

(so I am ...like agreeing with you, does that make me INTJ :blink: )
Agreeing with me only means you are smart and practical. ;)

[Lee]

Well, the British did the same when they were most powerful. Personally, I'd rather we attempted to take care of things domestically and not attempt to stamp our presence everywhere. That seems to be the whole theme of any country that is the "most powerful," which is why I generally don't like power, politics or people in general.
"The American empire" as I have sometimes heard it called (although tecnically it is not), will do more good for the world in the long run than The British Empire did.

People complain about The British Empire for wat it was, in my view they are being short-sighted.

[coffeezombie]

"The American empire" as I have sometimes heard it called (although tecnically it is not), will do more good for the world in the long run than The British Empire did.


I think that except in extreme cases, countries should be able to self-determine what they want for themselves without US intervention. The main problem I have about the Iraq War is that it is never expressed that the real causes for the war are oil and having political leverage in the middle east. Our country's leaders, if anything, should be honest.

[codeElemental]

I've travelled extensively and been received with open arms when people find out where I'm from. It seems a shame that for Yanks the reception may be just a tad frostier (to say the least).


To be fair, I haven't been out of the country in a couple years (might be a little different now, but I wouldn't figure it would be a *total* 180 in 3 years), but I've never actually had any problems elsewhere. The French just seemed amused/slightly disinterested at my pained mangling of their language, the British tended to be pretty friendly, and the Australians/New Zealanders were very friendly and often quite curious about what it was like over here. I don't know if it's the fact that I tend towards quiet and don't wear giant american flag t-shirts, but I've never run into any overt hostility.

[booyalab]

Yeah, I think it pisses non-Americans off that they are more adaptable when it comes to accepting our culture but we are less adaptable at accepting theirs. Of course, we buy many Japanese and German cars.
are you kidding? we're a fucking hodge-podge

[Tlalocone]

In Hungary we have good and bad stereotypes about Americans(mainly meaning U.S. under the notion Americans.): good ones : Americans are diligent, practical, oppurtunistic, always kidding-around people.
Bad-ass ones: -the preference to use 'ass' and other nonconservative expressions in they everyday speech.-'car_adoring'.- eating 'junk food'. -Anticlerical/atheistic although patient in Religion practicing.

[YardGnome]

In Hungary we have good and bad stereotypes about Americans(mainly meaning U.S. under the notion Americans.): good ones : Americans are diligent, practical, oppurtunistic, always kidding-around people.
Bad-ass ones: -the preference to use 'ass' and other nonconservative expressions in they everyday speech.-'car_adoring'.- eating 'junk food'. -Anticlerical/atheistic although patient in Religion practicing.

I don't mean to get all symantec but bad-ass has a positive connotation. When someone or something is considered bad-ass that's a good thing. It's a double negative...

[Thermo]

The funny thing with my third world relatives is that they think America is made out of gold and we lie around in our hammocks drinking wine and eating cheese. Other countries don't realize we pay a price for our prosperty and success. I have a 13.5 hour workday and frequently nights and weekends. They expect us to send them money. I don't.

[Dunearhp]

I didn't read much of the thread, but I will sum up what I think the world wants from America as an American.

What they want:
1.) our culture - the rest of the world likes blue jeans and MTV.
2.) our foreign Aid
3.) Our military protection

What they don't want:
1.) American nationalism
2.) Interference in foreign affairs

It is hypocritical to want our money, culture, and military protection and expect we don't want anything in return.

What do Americans themselves want?

[MaroonBells]

Tlalocone,
The religious nature of (many of) the people in the US has deeply surprised me. I have been here now for 5 years and I thought that Americans were pragmatical both in their economic pursuits and in their need for mystical security. The only ones that can compete with the position of the dollar and the bible are Jennifer Lopez and Britney Spears.
MB

["InsertNameHere"]

What do Americans themselves want?
We want to rule the WORLD!!!!*sinister laughter in the background* :devil:


umm but no really: all I want is the choice to do what ever I want...if that made any sense :whistle:

[coffeezombie]

What do Americans themselves want?

I think most Americans expect wherever they go, everyone should have exactly the same values that they do.

["InsertNameHere"]

I think most Americans expect wherever they go, everyone should have exactly the same values that they do.
ah hem!... not true

then what's the point of traveling? I might as well stay my ass right here.

[coffeezombie]

ah hem!... not true

Well, I don't feel that way, but I think the majority of Americans do to a certain extent, although they are willing to tolerate "slight variations." Just look at Crule posting about his father getting angry in Germany about the way they run things. And that's Germany, for goodness sake, a very westernized country.

["InsertNameHere"]

I will agree with a lot but not with "majority" or "most" because I know many people with tolerant views of other countries. There are only a hand full of intolerant ignorant people that i have come across in my short life time. I guess i should count myself as lucky...

[booyalab]

Well, I don't feel that way, but I think the majority of Americans do to a certain extent, although they are willing to tolerate "slight variations." Just look at Crule posting about his father getting angry in Germany about the way they run things. And that's Germany, for goodness sake, a very westernized country.

I think we have high expectations for how things should be done, to be sure. That's one reason for our success. We're not willing to just sit back and *take* things, this is obvious as evidenced by the type of people who will move to another country when they dont like something (the type this country's made up of)..rather than just waiting it out or whatever. It has it's pros and cons.

[crule81]

Well, I don't feel that way, but I think the majority of Americans do to a certain extent, although they are willing to tolerate "slight variations." Just look at Crule posting about his father getting angry in Germany about the way they run things. And that's Germany, for goodness sake, a very westernized country.

He tends to do that in general, although he seemed especially annoyed while in Europe. (It's my step-father, though)

[booyalab]

I think the #1 thing is it's hard to get used to driving in Europe when you've only done it in the U.S. Especially if you're the average American who relies on their car a lot to go from point A to B (like the retarded older version roundabouts)

[Robespierre]

And that's Germany, for goodness sake, a very westernized country.

Just a nit-pick here, Germany is not a westernized country, it IS a western country. South-Africa is a westernized country, Japan is a westernized country.

[Claverhouse]

I didn't read much of the thread, but I will sum up what I think the world wants from America as an American.

What they want:
1.) our culture - the rest of the world likes blue jeans and MTV.
2.) our foreign Aid
3.) Our military protection

What they don't want:
1.) American nationalism
2.) Interference in foreign affairs

It is hypocritical to want our money, culture, and military protection and expect we don't want anything in return.
Well, I don't want
1.) American culture --- the blue jeans are made in Taiwan anyway.
2.) Foreign aid. Places like GB and Germany don't get it, and in any case give proportionately more themselves. ( Mostly wasted on the leaders of the proud independent countries and their Armed Forces anyway. )
3.) Who the fuck 'needs' American military protection ? Which bears much the same relationship to the standard criminal protection rackets: 'My boys will guard your business from bad people, provided you do what we want. Now you must thank us.'

The USSR and the USA both won the rewards of WWII: after which they hung about in the nations in between promising to 'protect' their client states against the wickedness of the other. Not greatly useful, but still made sense --- supposing you cared deeply enough about the differences between the two republican systems. Now there's no big enemy to tremble at: so they have to invent enemies to protect us from.

'There's a man in a cave in the far-away mountains with awesome powers: so fiendish he can't be caught...';
'The Saddam-Man's Gonna Git'cha iffen Ya Don' Watch Out !';
'The monstrous Stalinist militarist state of North Korea threatens the stability of the whole world'.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

From the notorious Botsford Essay:


The essential techniques have remained unchanged since the holy wars of the middle ages. There is the construction of the propaganda image of The Enemy, a person or nation so evil and powerful, and who has committed so many monstrous atrocities, that only his or its total annihilation can save the world from infamy. There are martyrs whose life histories and relics can be manufactured to order, regardless of the historical reality. There is the appeal not only to patriotism but also -- significantly -- to quasi-religious and messianic concepts such as "the Union", "the war to end all wars", "making the world safe for democracy", or "the new world order", which put the recipient into a state of enthusiasm where he will believe virtually any propaganda, however improbable.

[Robespierre]

Well, I don't want
1.) American culture --- the blue jeans are made in Taiwan anyway.

Lovely, don't buy them.


3.) Who the fuck 'needs' American military protection ? Which bears much the same relationship to the standard criminal protection rackets: 'My boys will guard your business from bad people, provided you do what we want. Now you must thank us.'

Sounds identical to the 'protection' provided by government regulations.

The same goes for your quote from the essay. The logic can and should also be applied to all government actions. Not only do they demonize nations and governments to gain support for their wars, but they also demonize businesses, races, genders, lifestyles, etc etc in order to whip people into a frenzy so they will give up their individual liberties to protect themselves from these horrible things.

[Thermo]

What do Americans themselves want?
This is just my opinion, but I would like to stop spending money and interfering in countries where we are not wanted and spend our money on deficit reduction and protecting American jobs from outsourcing.

South Korea is mad at us, fine let North Korea take them over, etc.

[Vagabond]

I didn't read much of the thread, but I will sum up what I think the world wants from America as an American.

What they want:
1.) our culture - the rest of the world likes blue jeans and MTV.
2.) our foreign Aid
3.) Our military protection

What they don't want:
1.) American nationalism
2.) Interference in foreign affairs

It is hypocritical to want our money, culture, and military protection and expect we don't want anything in return. What if I don't want any of this, but america feels obliged to impose both the benefits and the obligations on me? Like, if I don't want a democracy, do I *have* to have it one way or the other because I wear blue jeans..?

You have a very weird idea on what people/nations want from your country, I think. Sure, if I ask for military protection and political aid, I automatically give you the right to interfere with my inside stuff; but if I *don't* ask you for military protection etc, please, please don't fucking protect me so that you will claim your rewards later on for helping me against my will. (As for culture, I have one of my own, thank you very much).

Disclaimer, like I said before my problem is with politics and only with politics... which this thread was not supposed to go into anyway. Hmmm.

Edit: Once again Thermo this is *not* a personal post. I am only debating ideas, not people. (Since apparently I need to clarify that each time).

[crule81]

Who the fuck 'needs' American military protection ? Which bears much the same relationship to the standard criminal protection rackets: 'My boys will guard your business from bad people, provided you do what we want. Now you must thank us.'

The USSR and the USA both won the rewards of WWII: after which they hung about in the nations in between promising to 'protect' their client states against the wickedness of the other. Not greatly useful, but still made sense --- supposing you cared deeply enough about the differences between the two republican systems. Now there's no big enemy to tremble at: so they have to invent enemies to protect us from.



Well, would you like to know where you'd be without us, the old U.S. of A., to protect you? I'll tell you! The smallest fucking province in the Russian Empire, that's what! - Otto (American) to Wendy (English) in "A Fish Called Wanda".

[Robespierre]

This is just my opinion, but I would like to stop spending money and interfering in countries where we are not wanted and spend our money on deficit reduction and protecting American jobs from outsourcing.

The first part of your statement is a-okay.

But you want to use tax money to intentionally create distortions in the job market? Why?

[coffeezombie]

I think the #1 thing is it's hard to get used to driving in Europe when you've only done it in the U.S. Especially if you're the average American who relies on their car a lot to go from point A to B (like the retarded older version roundabouts)

Um... why drive? Public transportation is pretty abundant there.

[Robespierre]

Um... why drive? Public transportation is pretty abundant there.

The same reason a lot of people drive in big cities with public transport in the US, the last mile. That combined with speed and reliability.

[Claverhouse]

Lovely, don't buy them. Don't worry, I don't ( standard prole issue: made funnier by the marketing so the proles think they are expressing their individuality ); but Thermo's point was that the world does want American culture [ And indeed, many in each nation do ].

Nonetheless, with a dominant power, determined to use every trick of government force to force foreigners to take their medicine and buy American, added to lack of will-power in most of the supine --- installed --- foreign governments ( except the French ), there's as much chance of successful resistance as for a tiny African soviet-aligned state refusing to buy Russian tractors back in the twentieth century. Enormous useless ugly tractors, maybe: but they still had to take them.





Well, would you like to know where you'd be without us, the old U.S. of A., to protect you? I'll tell you! The smallest fucking province in the Russian Empire, that's what!
- Otto (American) to Wendy (English) in "A Fish Called Wanda".
But poor Otto was as crazy as a bedbug...



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Dman]

I find American culture quite annoying too. The American way of life, which is materially driven and oh so patriotic in some places.
....

As opposed to the non-materially driven, unpatriotic Brits.


Contemptuous of weakness, failure or prevarication.

That’s a bad thing? (suddenly understands why the US dominates the world)


Whenever I think of the cultural milieu of the U.S. violence, guns, aggression and the subsequent fear it engenders immediately spring to mind.

Sounds like you have a problem with the popular media rather than the real US.

BTW – here in the Pacific NW, we don’t have accents. We are the only ones in the world who speak English without obnoxious accents, including Brits - what’s will adding the “r” sound to the end of words ending in “a”? You know what I’m talking about. At least when Brits sing they usually sound normal.

[Robespierre]

Nonetheless, with a dominant power, determined to use every trick of government force to force foreigners to take their medicine and buy American, added to lack of will-power in most of the supine --- installed --- foreign governments ( except the French ), there's as much chance of successful resistance as for a tiny African soviet-aligned state refusing to buy Russian tractors back in the twentieth century. Enormous useless ugly tractors, maybe: but they still had to take them.

It's quite possible that the US government has some sort of programs that operate similarly, but as far as US culture in general, there IS a huge demand for it overseas. The US government has nothing to do with the success of Hollywood, or the popularity of US fashions. If you value individual liberty at all, you must accept that many people will have different tastes than you.

[Dunearhp]

BTW – here in the Pacific NW, we don’t have accents.

Hahahahaha
:rofl:

That is now the frontrunner for my absurd statement of the month.

If you wan't to avoid speaking with an accent, shut your mouth. That applies no matter where you live.

[Robespierre]

BTW – here in the Pacific NW, we don’t have accents. We are the only ones in the world who speak English without obnoxious accents, including Brits - what’s will adding the “r” sound to the end of words ending in “a”? You know what I’m talking about. At least when Brits sing they usually sound normal.

There are no speakers of any language in history, that do not have an accent.

Everyone thinks that their accent sounds "right" or best. This does not mean that you don't have an accent.

[Dman]

Americans as a population are the feeble brained

Yet somehow come up with many of the most advanced technologies and ideas, and draw foreign students from around the world to our universities, and create the most powerful military and economic powerhouse on the planet…wow, that’s pretty good for a bunch of morons. Wonder what it says about the rest of the world!


PS – regarding music - Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, Doors, Metallica, Tool, Rage against the machine, Jimmy Hendrix, Eddie Van Halen, etc. Michael Jackson, whoops, strike that one –

Referring to America’s exporting of our horrendous culture to other countries -

So it's our fault that you guys want that shit?

lol

See “Michael Jackson” above

BTW I didn’t see any Aussies here responding to Robespierre’s post about their voting mandates – did I miss the response, or did somebody get burned?


There are no speakers of any language in history, that do not have an accent.

Everyone thinks that their accent sounds "right" or best. This does not mean that you don't have an accent.

I’ve had southern US people and British people (Irish and English) proclaim that we do not appear to have an accent. I’ve specifically asked how we sound to the rest of the world, and they said “indistinguishable”, meaning no accent. If I spoke to you, you could not tell where I was from – only where I wasn’t from.

[Thermo]

What if I don't want any of this, but america feels obliged to impose both the benefits and the obligations on me? Like, if I don't want a democracy, do I *have* to have it one way or the other because I wear blue jeans..?
I don't think its an individual choice. Your government, probably, has chosen to maintain ties with the US and when you take our money or protection we are going to expect favors in return.



You have a very weird idea on what people/nations want from your country, I think. Sure, if I ask for military protection and political aid, I automatically give you the right to interfere with my inside stuff; but if I *don't* ask you for military protection etc, please, please don't fucking protect me so that you will claim your rewards later on for helping me against my will. (As for culture, I have one of my own, thank you very much).
I am against spending my money to defend you as you are. I don't think we disagree, but it isn't our decision.




Disclaimer, like I said before my problem is with politics and only with politics... which this thread was not supposed to go into anyway. Hmmm.

Edit: Once again Thermo this is *not* a personal post. I am only debating ideas, not people. (Since apparently I need to clarify that each time).
I guess declaring you are an INTJ DOES instill fear in people. :P

I have never had a problem with you and don't generally resort to personal attacks or swearing. In fact the only thing I know about you is that you know something about the greeks. I would like to hear about it from you, but I have respected your wishes not to talk about it. I don't know where these ideas is coming from.

[Robespierre]

I’ve had southern US people and British people (Irish and English) proclaim that we do not appear to have an accent.

Then they are just as mistaken as you on the subject of accents.


I’ve specifically asked how we sound to the rest of the world, and they said “indistinguishable”, meaning no accent. If I spoke to you, you could not tell where I was from – only where I wasn’t from.

Only if you define your accent as the one true way of speaking english, which to me, is silly.

And you are not indistinguishable. You speak differently than any other group of english speakers, on average. So what makes yours the one with no accent?

[Dunearhp]

BTW I didn’t see any Aussies here responding to Robespierre’s post about their voting mandates – did I miss the response, or did somebody get burned?

Citizens vote. Those who don't vote are just squatters. If they get trampled by activists then so be it.

[Robespierre]

Citizens vote. Those who don't vote are just squatters. If they get trampled by activists then so be it.

Hooray for Stalinism! Those who don't agree must be destroyed!

[Thermo]

But you want to use tax money to intentionally create distortions in the job market? Why?
I understand where you are coming from. Your main concern politically is to insure individual freedom. I get that and it comes out in all your posts.

My politics are about maintaining a balance between the socio-economic classes.
Upper - The upper class are the people who can chose not to work, based on wealth. These people create jobs and give the middle class something to aspire to.
Middle - The middle class are all the people who work for a living. These people need access to education and jobs.
Lower - These people don't work or live below the poverty line. This serves as a economic punishment for the middle class if they fail. Society needs to provide these people with economic opportunity to become middle class.

A government's function is to provide military security, police security, jobs, a good economy, control the classes, and education for economic advancement.

In the case of offshoring, the upper class is taking advantage of the middle and lower class. They are using the tax benefits of being in this country and the customer base, but giving the jobs to another country. If a US country wants to give jobs to singapore, move to singapore. If you want the benefits of the US, then hire US employees.

[Robespierre]

I understand where you are coming from. Your main concern politically is to insure individual freedom. I get that and it comes out in all your posts.

My politics are about maintaining a balance between the socio-economic classes.
Upper - The upper class are the people who can chose not to work, based on wealth. These people create jobs and give the middle class something to aspire to.
Middle - The middle class are all the people who work for a living. These people need access to education and jobs.
Lower - These people don't work or live below the poverty line. This serves as a economic punishment for the middle class if they fail. Society needs to provide these people with economic opportunity to become middle class.

Your marxist view of classes is really depressing. I'll never understand the drive that some people have to attempt to rule over the rest of us.

What is this notion of balance? What are you balancing? The ability of the lazy to loaf, and the "duty" of the productive to fund their loafing?


A government's function is to provide military security, police security, jobs, a good economy, control the classes, and education for economic advancement.

education? control the classes? Of course you mean that government's job is to do these things according to your personal values.

Public education is a religious cult that has guns to force society to contribute to its schemes.


In the case of offshoring, the upper class is taking advantage of the middle and lower class.

Who owns the jobs that are being outsourced?


They are using the tax benefits of being in this country and the customer base, but giving the jobs to another country. If a US country wants to give jobs to singapore, move to singapore. If you want the benefits of the US, then hire US employees.

So end all international trade and force all companies to only employ people within the borders of one nation-state?

You laughably refer to "tax benefits" of being incorporated in the US... so what are they?

For your opinion of outsourcing to make sense, you must also believe that the wealthy have a duty to provide some portion of their wealth (how much?) to the less wealthy. What makes you believe this duty exists?

[codeElemental]

BTW – here in the Pacific NW, we don’t have accents. We are the only ones in the world who speak English without obnoxious accents, including Brits - what’s will adding the “r” sound to the end of words ending in “a”? You know what I’m talking about. At least when Brits sing they usually sound normal.

American English without a regional accent is still just that - *American* English. It still pegs you either as an American, or somebody who learned it in the American form. I've been told that some countries teach British English, while some teach American... both have their baselines, and both have the various additional regional twangs. I think those that speak British English w/o regional accents have just as much a claim as you do.


Also, the Pacific NW isn't the only place that's without many regional quirks... much of the midwest (with the exception of some quirks in Chicago and northern MN), mid atlantic, and some of the northeast (and hell, much of FL and CA) aren't particularly distinctive either (ie nobody ever pegs where I'm from originally, other than "somewhere in the US that isn't the south, new york, or boston"

[Dunearhp]

Hooray for Stalinism! Those who don't agree must be destroyed!

Ah yes. One man, one vote. He was the man, he had the vote.

My point was that if you waive your right to vote, then there is no point claiming to be powerless when those who did vote, trample on you.
Of course voting may not prevent the trampling. Life is not perfect. At least you were trampled democratically.

Freedom is in the minds of the people. It has little to do with the government in power. The most stable democracies on the planet are also the oldest. In most of these countries the primary role of the government is to do as little as possible while appearing to be very busy. If no piece of legislation is passed in a governments four year term, then they have done a remarkably good job.

Australias system of government (as it was inherited from Britain, with small differences) was created to let the monkeys run the zoo. The secret is to make it impossible for the monkeys to burn the place down in the space of one term. If the monkeys can change the constitution without a referendum then it is only a pseudo democracy. The matches have been left out right next to a can of petrol.

My support for compulsory preferential voting ties in to this. If you really can't choose a candidate then you should be running as one. It forces you to think about the candidates and identify the potential tramplers. You can then don your spiked helmet and position yourself suitably.

[Cupid stunt]

K, thermo annoyed me a bit but dman's both more recent and less intelligent...


Yet somehow come up with many of the most advanced technologies and ideas, and draw foreign students from around the world to our universities, and create the most powerful military and economic powerhouse on the planet…wow, that’s pretty good for a bunch of morons. Wonder what it says about the rest of the world!



Its not just the overpatrioticness that annoys, its when you start to boast, overpatriotically without warrant and then expect people to agree with you. You also try to translate any achievement of American people into superiority without realising that the only reason you "dominate" some things or do anything better is because of the number of people you have. You may point to less advanced countries such as china or closer countries like canada but i'd point to us in England (the advanced nation you descended from). If we for some reason came across the land and numbers you have, you wouldnt have a market left, we'd have it, on balance we'd be better at pretty much everything than you, if any particular European country was the same size as you, they'd dominate European markets and probably yours too.
Advanced weapons and high numbers mean you can dominate any market you wish, intelligent or not.
You also call sports that Americans and a select few play "World championships".




I’ve had southern US people and British people (Irish and English) proclaim that we do not appear to have an accent. I’ve specifically asked how we sound to the rest of the world, and they said “indistinguishable”, meaning no accent. If I spoke to you, you could not tell where I was from – only where I wasn’t from.

ROFL! He really, trully believes he doesnt have an accent. Quality.
Maybe the particular accent that you DO have isnt well known? Maybe you just sound like a twat? Who knows.

[Cupid stunt]

By the way, I do wish people would stop thinking English people still sound and talk how we did 20 years ago.
Its really annoying, we dont.
We are also not quiet. Getting drunk, being loud, causing havoc and fighting are very British things.
Some foreign hotels refuse to take brits.
Yeah, im aware that people will say "and thats a good thing?" but it just annoys me when people talk whilst knowing nothing.

[Robespierre]

My point was that if you waive your right to vote, then there is no point claiming to be powerless when those who did vote, trample on you.

The point I was trying to make was that the majority of voters, be that a majority of compelled voters, or a majority of the those who choose to vote, still has no right to impose itself upon the individual. The will of the throng does not define right and wrong.


Of course voting may not prevent the trampling. Life is not perfect. At least you were trampled democratically.

Why accept trampling at all? Why bother voting?


Freedom is in the minds of the people. It has little to do with the government in power.

I think I know what you're getting at here, and if I am correct in my assumption of your position, I agree. To a certain extent.

However, to the extent that the government in power uses its power to violently restrict the actions of its subjects, liberties can be and are erased.


The most stable democracies on the planet are also the oldest. In most of these countries the primary role of the government is to do as little as possible while appearing to be very busy. If no piece of legislation is passed in a governments four year term, then they have done a remarkably good job.

And the older a democracy, the more the voters realize that they can use their status as a majority to vote themselves the wealth of others.

I do agree that a 4 year period without legislation would be a wonderful thing. However, this is not the case in the world's oldest democracy, the US. There has been a steady acceleration in the size, speed, and scope of the government and its powers.


Australias system of government (as it was inherited from Britain, with small differences) was created to let the monkeys run the zoo. The secret is to make it impossible for the monkeys to burn the place down in the space of one term. If the monkeys can change the constitution without a referendum then it is only a pseudo democracy. The matches have been left out right next to a can of petrol.

So if some of the monkies decide that they don't enjoy being trampled by the others, why point guns at them and force them to continue? This is what forcing people to vote does, it disallows the ultimate form of political protest, not voting.


My support for compulsory preferential voting ties in to this. If you really can't choose a candidate then you should be running as one. It forces you to think about the candidates and identify the potential tramplers. You can then don your spiked helmet and position yourself suitably.

I understand your position, and you have done a great job staking it out. If I were still a supporter of democracy, I would be likely to agree with you. However, it is the overall principle of collective decision-making that sours me. I will view any compulsory act with much skepticism, and in this case, compulsory voting seems to be one more step towards chaos.

[Robespierre]

If we for some reason came across the land and numbers you have, you wouldnt have a market left, we'd have it, on balance we'd be better at pretty much everything than you, if any particular European country was the same size as you, they'd dominate European markets and probably yours too.
Advanced weapons and high numbers mean you can dominate any market you wish, intelligent or not.
You also call sports that Americans and a select few play "World championships".

First, ideas will always trump power and money.


Second, patriotism is bad, the US is not superiour. It is the UK that is best!

[Dunearhp]

I actually disagree with you on very little.

It is an unfortunate fact that the majority will normally have their way, whether it be through force or politics, unless the minority is much better armed. Better that it be codified than that we try to deceive ourselves.

[codeElemental]

If we for some reason came across the land and numbers you have, you wouldnt have a market left, we'd have it, on balance we'd be better at pretty much everything than you, if any particular European country was the same size as you, they'd dominate European markets and probably yours too.
Advanced weapons and high numbers mean you can dominate any market you wish, intelligent or not.
You also call sports that Americans and a select few play "World championships".


You do, of course, realize that you're engaging in the very boasting you cited to demean dman's intelligence? There's no way to know if you'd be so much better. Maybe you'd create some magical utopia. Maybe you'd crash and burn. Maybe you'd operate in much the same way. It's painfully ironic to see you trash somebody for patriotism while then doing the *exact* same thing.

Of course having a large population and land area help. Of course things would be different if other countries had that. That was never in dispute. What is in dispute is that America is a giant land of idiots, and he was simply making the point that something's been done right by good people here, as they have been in your nation as well.

And on a minor quibbling note...if nobody else plays it in the world, it doesn't really make it any less of a world championship... the rest just decided they would rather play other sports. No harm in that.

[Dman]

Then they are just as mistaken as you on the subject of accents.



Only if you define your accent as the one true way of speaking english, which to me, is silly.

And you are not indistinguishable. You speak differently than any other group of english speakers, on average. So what makes yours the one with no accent?

Definition of accent –

dialect: the usage or vocabulary that is characteristic of a specific group of people; "the immigrants spoke an odd dialect of English"; "he has a strong German accent"

Thus, since people who speak in the Pacific NW do not speak with a characteristic of a specific group of people, we have no “accent”. I was exaggerating when I said “the only ones in the world”, but certainly among the few that cannot be determined where they were raised based upon their “accent”.

[Robespierre]

Thus, since people who speak in the Pacific NW do not speak with a characteristic of a specific group of people, we have no “accent”. I was exaggerating when I said “the only ones in the world”, but certainly among the few that cannot be determined where they were raised based upon their “accent”.

Even if what you say were, true, which I don't believe it is, then you would still be incorrect for you have an american accent, as the englishman pointed out. Among those who speak the english language, english, irish, americans, new zealanders, et al, you are obvious as an american, and have an accent.

[Dman]

K, thermo annoyed me a bit but dman's both more recent and less intelligent...





Its not just the overpatrioticness that annoys, its when you start to boast, overpatriotically without warrant and then expect people to agree with you. You also try to translate any achievement of American people into superiority without realising that the only reason you "dominate" some things or do anything better is because of the number of people you have. You may point to less advanced countries such as china or closer countries like canada but i'd point to us in England (the advanced nation you descended from). If we for some reason came across the land and numbers you have, you wouldnt have a market left, we'd have it, on balance we'd be better at pretty much everything than you, if any particular European country was the same size as you, they'd dominate European markets and probably yours too.
Advanced weapons and high numbers mean you can dominate any market you wish, intelligent or not.
You also call sports that Americans and a select few play "World championships".




ROFL! He really, trully believes he doesnt have an accent. Quality.
Maybe the particular accent that you DO have isnt well known? Maybe you just sound like a twat? Who knows.

Translation = Jealous.


BTW - My ancestors hailed primarily from Norway and Germany, only England to a degree.

I'd also rather sound like a "twat" than someone who can't take a joke or a contrary pov without getting his panties all in a bunch ;)

[Cupid stunt]

Translation = Jealous.


BTW - My ancestors hailed primarily from Norway and Germany, only England to a degree.

I'd also rather sound like a "twat" than someone who can't take a joke or a contrary pov without getting his panties all in a bunch ;)


I have nothing to be jealous about and im not a jealous person, I assure you im not jealous, just realistic and easily annoyed by people who boast with blindness, implying things that simply arent true.

I wasnt talking about you.

I can take a joke very well, im just negative and argumentative, especially when drunk, whenever I post I sound serious and like my panties are in a bunch but its just the impression my posting gives off, cant help it, havent tried.

Robespierre, yes I can see how it looks ironic, but England is the only country I know enough about to judge, and if somebody is boasting about something that theyre not even particularly good at then I feel I have a right to try to show them who's better and why. England/Britain is my only example, unless I wanted to chat about something I dont know.

[Cupid stunt]

aah, I meant codeelemental^


Of course having a large population and land area help. Of course things would be different if other countries had that. That was never in dispute. What is in dispute is that America is a giant land of idiots, and he was simply making the point that something's been done right by good people here, as they have been in your nation as well.

I know its not in despute, its not even acknowledged.



And on a minor quibbling note...if nobody else plays it in the world, it doesn't really make it any less of a world championship... the rest just decided they would rather play other sports. No harm in that.

It makes it an American championship, its only a world championship if a fair share of the world plays it.

[Robespierre]

Robespierre, yes I can see how it looks ironic, but England is the only country I know enough about to judge, and if somebody is boasting about something that theyre not even particularly good at then I feel I have a right to try to show them who's better and why. England/Britain is my only example, unless I wanted to chat about something I dont know.


on balance we'd be better at pretty much everything than you

This doesn't look very specific to me. I'd say you are just as off-the-handle as dman with his accent idea.

[Cupid stunt]

Im drunk and can say what I like! :P

k, that pretty much better at everything comment wasnt meant, it just seems to me (an English person I know) that for our size, we do a lot more in terms of invention, revolution, giving, sport, other things that American's boast about a lot, than America has ever done.

But your right, its just that when I see something I disagree with, I feel the need to counter rather than neutralize, even if neutral is the obvious answer. I dont expect you to understand what im trying to saay here.

[Dman]

I see now what the confusion is.

I neglected to say we were the only ones that did not have an accent *that made us sound like either idiots or pretentious elitists*.

My bad!

BTW - I'm glad someone here was paying attention enough to notice the irony of the "Americans are arrogant and overly patriotic" while following those statements with their own arrogant and overly patriotic statements. Sorry, the implication of my sarcastic and dramatic remarks was supposed to reflect that, but evidently I failed.

Edit - and yes, the remarks about the accent were in jest, I was hoping to poke fun at those who claimed their nation's cultural supremacy - seems that I at least succeeded in that

[Robespierre]

USA! USA! USA!

[Star Cannon]

I have something to contribute: the adolescents are woefully unaware of a larger world.

[snarled]

Cultural Imperialism

America started ruling the high seas with the perfection of the invisible 'Hollywood' style.

Casablanca is the ultimate weapon.

Far from being 'loud and brash', cultures are being enveloped from the inside out. These countries don't want to be American..they can't help it. You could try to 'pull a North Korea' I suppose, but it's still pretty tough. Invisibly pumped full of MTV, nike shoes, and 'The Matrix'....yet we are still 'free to choose' right? Right? What is culture anyway?

Didn't they whack some golden arches in Iraq quick smart? Good move. Fuck war and politics...that's small time shit.

I ain't saying it's wrong (or right) and far from intentional. It just works really well.

[Pedro_The_Lion]

Just for fun...


Americans tend to make a lot of etiquette blunders (NT).

Americans' demonization of sexuality which is seen as a potential source of great psychological trauma indicates painful Si. A certain lack of taste in archetecture, a preference for dressing down, dressing casually, and inability to match colors and textures well indecate painful Si.
...
With superior technology the average life span in the US is ten years lower than in France (ESFj). Indiscriminate taste in food, large number of overweight people, many people being totally dependant on restaurants and microwave dinners for their provisions, all seems to point to Americans' painful function.

American English is very rich in metaphoric slang (Ni as creative function), while British English is more formal and sensory.

On a totally unrelated note:

@Robespierre - You have inspired me to read more about the man's ideas as your posts seem very interesting. The only problem I can see with it is power structures tend to emerge naturally. How/Why do you prevent this? I am of the position that power structures will cease to exist on their own as soon as the mutual benefits in the system no longer occur.

[Shai Gar]

Definition of accent –

dialect: the usage or vocabulary that is characteristic of a specific group of people; "the immigrants spoke an odd dialect of English"; "he has a strong German accent"

Thus, since people who speak in the Pacific NW do not speak with a characteristic of a specific group of people, we have no “accent”. I was exaggerating when I said “the only ones in the world”, but certainly among the few that cannot be determined where they were raised based upon their “accent”.
ac·cent http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Daccent) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/abreve.gifkhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gifnthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif)
n.
The relative prominence of a particular syllable of a word by greater intensity or by variation or modulation of pitch or tone.
Vocal prominence or emphasis given to a particular syllable, word, or phrase.
A characteristic pronunciation, especially:
One determined by the regional or social background of the speaker.
One determined by the phonetic habits of the speaker's native language carried over to his or her use of another language.

[Shai Gar]

Cultural Imperialism

America started ruling the high seas with the perfection of the invisible 'Hollywood' style.

Casablanca is the ultimate weapon.

Far from being 'loud and brash', cultures are being enveloped from the inside out. These countries don't want to be American..they can't help it. You could try to 'pull a North Korea' I suppose, but it's still pretty tough. Invisibly pumped full of MTV, nike shoes, and 'The Matrix'....yet we are still 'free to choose' right? Right? What is culture anyway?

Didn't they whack some golden arches in Iraq quick smart? Good move. Fuck war and politics...that's small time shit.

I ain't saying it's wrong (or right) and far from intentional. It just works really well.
read the book "why to people hate america" it covers what you just said to a great degree, plus it includes a lot of references

[Miss Anthropic]

Hahahahaha
:rofl:

That is now the frontrunner for my absurd statement of the month.

If you wan't to avoid speaking with an accent, shut your mouth. That applies no matter where you live.

As far as regional accents in the United States, there is none here in the Northwest. In other regions original immigrants' native languages have contributed to the regional accents. We don't have that. This area was never settled with any specific ethnic group. I suppose you could say that by virtue of not having a regional accent, that we have one.....but we don't!

["InsertNameHere"]

Anyone has any new problems with Americans or the US that haven't been addressed? I'd just like to know because the past complaints have been beaten over and over with a bat. Frankly speaking, it's a bore and very repetitive. :whistle:

[Shai Gar]

not really we covered them all ages ago and are now just using this thread to bash yanks..
yes, boring.

[Serotonin]

This is just my opinion, but I would like to stop spending money and interfering in countries where we are not wanted and spend our money on deficit reduction and protecting American jobs from outsourcing.


Yay, an American who gets it! :)
This one I am definitely supporting you on.

[cathmc]

not really we covered them all ages ago and are now just using this thread to bash yanks..
yes, boring.
Boring, yes, and let's face it, pretty darn easy.

Let's try bashing the Swiss! :mellow:

[Cupid stunt]

Blarg, I forgot to mention the blatant over-usage of "anti-American", and then putting it down to jealousy, rather than a lot of Americans just being annoying.

[Cupid stunt]

Anyone has any new problems with Americans or the US that haven't been addressed? I'd just like to know because the past complaints have been beaten over and over with a bat. Frankly speaking, it's a bore and very repetitive. :whistle:

Was it a plastic bat? It didnt seem to do much damage.

[Serotonin]

What they want:
1.) our culture - the rest of the world likes blue jeans and MTV.

In small doses, and not any more than I want British or French or Italian culture. Dman's list of Hendrix, Pearl Jam, Nirvana etc. was good. American fiction is good.


2.) our foreign Aid
Not applicable, we don't get any, but we have a large trade relationship with you guys, this is fine. IMO the concept of aid should be that it is a gift, with no strings attached, to help struggling countries get back on their feet. Obviously IRL this is not the case. But it's a useful tool to make misbehaving countries get in line. Cue August 1999, East Timor. Howard gets on the phone to Clinton and inveigles him to cut aid to Indonesia unless they get their militia men out of there. So if it wasn't for American foreign aid E. Timor would still belong to Indonesia, with the civilians crushed, women raped etc.
Bottom line is, you don't have to give aid if you don't want to. But (and I'm sure Bush & Wolfowitz know this) aid, to a certain extent, prevents poverty and disenchantment in the third world and therefore terrorism. That's why America still dishes it out, not because they are all sweet righteous compassionate people, but because it's an effective (albeit expensive) way to protect their asses.


3.) Our military protection
A tough cookie. You saved us in 1944-45 from the Japanese. Thank you. Howard knows our military is vastly undermanned should we descend into war. Our length of deserted coastline is huge. That's why he cuddles up to Bush, since he knows that if we're attacked by Indonesia or China we'll need you guys to save us. That's why he went all the way to embroil us in Iraq. It was a calculated risk, and it seems to have paid off (i.e. no casualties).
I sincerely wish that we won't have to engage in any sort of war. A few nervous nellies here are speculating that the China won't be able to sustain its economic growth without being imperialist, and this imperialism may extend to Australia. Indonesia is more docile internationally speaking and we're not too worried about them. All those islanders breed secessionists, and their military have their hands full keeping them in line. Similarly China has both Tibet and borders with about 14 countries to contend with. They'll need to sort that out before they even begin to think about Pacific imperialism.
Still, learning Indonesian is compulsory for all Army Reservists. But I think Australia should be cool about it for the time being.




What they don't want:
1.) American nationalism
Why should we?


2.) Interference in foreign affairs
Trade is fine. Cultural exchange (to a degree) is fine.
American military base at Pine Gap is not fine. The Bush Administration's blatant partisanship with the current Australian Government is not fine.

Incidentally, what would you want in return from Australia?

[Hypnos]

What's all the whining about cultural imperialism? If you had your own culture, American imports wouldn't be a problem.

The bottom line is that people, esp. the young, will gravitate towards titillation and visions of hope, like economic and social independence. If your culture (wherever you are) is any good, those with taste will sustain it.

Really, what the complainers are worried about is national identity and their own place in the world. Screw you. I'll wear my Italian suits, drink French wine, speak Espanol and listen to English and German Romantic music, thank you.

"Americanism" isn't a bulldozer, but an ecology: it co-opts and reinvents. Jazz and American fiction and film are perhaps the most impressive results. All other cultures do this as well, but they're much slower.

[Cupid stunt]

See, every comment like that last bit annoys me^ Its left open as to what the reason is and im sure many if not most ignore the reasoning part and actually believe its superiority.

[Serotonin]

What's all the whining about cultural imperialism? If you had your own culture, American imports wouldn't be a problem.

You speak a salient truth. What shits me is when we import bad American culture e.g OC, Raymond, McDonalds. But I suppose the diamonds in the rough (great rock bands, jazz, the very best i.e top 2% of Hollywood) are worth it.




"Americanism" isn't a bulldozer, but an ecology: it co-opts and reinvents. Jazz and American fiction and film are perhaps the most impressive results. All other cultures do this as well, but they're much slower.

Agreed. The most populous Western country in the world will re-invent its culture more quickly than less populous ones.

[Shai Gar]

australia does have its own distinct culture

[Dunearhp]

As far as regional accents in the United States, there is none here in the Northwest. In other regions original immigrants' native languages have contributed to the regional accents. We don't have that. This area was never settled with any specific ethnic group. I suppose you could say that by virtue of not having a regional accent, that we have one.....but we don't!

If you sound different to anyone else then you have an accent.

[Hypnos]

Serotonin,

* Yes, as I argued earlier, you have to take the good with the bad sometimes. America is the Great Whore -- that's why I love her :)

* I disagree that a country's size is the determining factor in the vibrancy and agility of its culture. Rather, it's the well-connectedness of its populace, openness to outsiders, and freedom of thought. These are the common characteristics of all past great civilizations (at least, early in their histories).

[Cupid stunt]

See, that annoys me, they do trully believe these things arent bought about by huge population >.< They are. Everything 90% of Americans are oh so proud about is.

[Serotonin]

* I disagree that a country's size is the determining factor in the vibrancy and agility of its culture. Rather, it's the well-connectedness of its populace, openness to outsiders, and freedom of thought. These are the common characteristics of all past great civilizations (at least, early in their histories).


The most populous Western country in the world will re-invent its culture more quickly than less populous ones.

Still in agreement with you. But size helps.


australia does have its own distinct culture

And IMO it sucks. Evolve, damn you!
I plan to write the great Australian novel before I shuffle off this mortal coil as my humble contribution to the evolution.

[Hypnos]

Still in agreement with you. But size helps.
Perhaps, if size is gained by assimilating new peoples (e.g., Rome or Britain). The US has done this in some sense. As a counterexample, I would point to Greece.

[Hypnos]

See, that annoys me, they do trully believe these things arent bought about by huge population >.< They are. Everything 90% of Americans are oh so proud about is.
China and India? My parents left India because it was stultified by communism and corruption; Bengal still is. China is roaring because of their market reforms; we'll see if they can keep growing without also opening up the society, as their wage pricing rises.

[Serotonin]

Perhaps, if size is gained by assimilating new peoples (e.g., Rome or Britain). The US has done this in some sense. As a counterexample, I would point to Greece.

Ancient or modern Greece? Ancient Greece was the cradle of civilisation. Southern Europe at the time was probably the most densely populated area on earth, so no surprises there.

Modern Greece I can't comment on, maybe Vagabond could have a word?

[Hypnos]

Ancient or modern Greece? Ancient Greece was the cradle of civilisation. Southern Europe at the time was probably the most densely populated area on earth, so no surprises there.
Now, density certainly can be a big factor, more than size, IMHO, before modern telecommunications. Japan and India come to mind, as well.

The US is only densely populated in a few areas.

[Serotonin]

Now, density certainly can be a big factor, more than size, IMHO, before modern telecommunications. Japan and India come to mind, as well.

The US is only densely populated in a few areas.

NYC and LA did and still do produce some of the most seismic cultural shifts...
OK, let my theory be modified from "population size" to "population density".

[Shai Gar]

im going to say it again, city aussies suck.

[Hypnos]

NYC and LA did and still do produce some of the most seismic cultural shifts...
OK, let my theory be modified from "population size" to "population density".
Perhaps ... LA and Silicon Valley are pretty spread out ;)

I love New York.

BTW, I was having a brain fart when I said "French wine" above -- it's better then Californian wine, but way overpriced. Australian wine is the best, esp. because I like shiraz; Spain comes second.

[Serotonin]

im going to say it again, city aussies suck.

Which is why all the beautiful country girls flock to the city, leaving country towns with too many sexually frustrated males and cities with many satisfied ones... yeah.

Bite me.

[Shai Gar]

blow me, there are many attractive girls out here too, which is the only reason i had been sustained last year.

wanker

[MacGuffin]

Incidentally, what would you want in return from Australia?
Nicole Kidman, permanently.

[Serotonin]

Nicole Kidman, permanently.

Done. She's practically yours already anyway.

[Serotonin]

blow me, there are many attractive girls out here too, which is the only reason i had been sustained last year.

wanker

Y'know, out of the 90 odd % of Australians who live in cities, surely there must be some who are worthwhile.

Bigot

[MacGuffin]

Done. She's practically yours already anyway.
Excellent. Ummm.... now send the other hot ones too.

Don't make us bring you freedom!

[Serotonin]

Excellent. Ummm.... now send the other hot ones too.

Don't make us bring you freedom!

:rofl:

Yes, the oppressive tyranny of hot Australian women that we must be liberated from!

Wonder what the equivalent of Abu Ghraib will be? :ph34r:

[MacGuffin]

:rofl:

Yes, the oppressive tyranny of hot Australian women that we must be liberated from!

Wonder what the equivalent of Abu Ghraib will be? :ph34r:
We will use..... the Playboy Mansion.

[Hypnos]

Don't make us bring you freedom!
The whole world has a freedom deficit -- we must act.

[Robespierre]

@Robespierre - You have inspired me to read more about the man's ideas as your posts seem very interesting. The only problem I can see with it is power structures tend to emerge naturally. How/Why do you prevent this? I am of the position that power structures will cease to exist on their own as soon as the mutual benefits in the system no longer occur.

Well, I suppose it all rests on what you mean by "power structures". If you mean some group of individuals and their relationships that enables them to physically dominate another group, then I would suggest that the benefits for doing so, relative to the benefit of being cooperative would drop. In our current system, a corporation that can get away with some criminal behavior, poisoning the air for example, does so by befriending those who have the ability to physically dominate the rest, the federal government. Without such a centralized structure, it would become much more difficult to force other to accept these evil practices.

I may have missed your point entirely, I do that sometimes. So let me know.

[Robespierre]

Ancient or modern Greece? Ancient Greece was the cradle of civilisation. Southern Europe at the time was probably the most densely populated area on earth, so no surprises there.

Not quite. Southern Europe at the time was a backwater. The greeks expanded into empty territory, mostly, with their colonies. Italy, Spain, southern France, the shores of the Black Sea, etc.

[Vagabond]

Ancient or modern Greece? Ancient Greece was the cradle of civilisation. Southern Europe at the time was probably the most densely populated area on earth, so no surprises there.

Modern Greece I can't comment on, maybe Vagabond could have a word?I can't pretend I read the entire discussion (this thread grows too quickly for me:blush: ). If we are talking about density vs size, modern Greece is sure as hell overcrowded, although pretty small for a country. Part of it is because of the loss of territories in the past and mass moving of greek populations to the mainland, part of it is because of the high immigration rate in the recent years from Balcanic, Asian etc (eastern european, african sometimes... hmm) countries. Not sure if I am off topic here...

[Dman]

Even if what you say were, true, which I don't believe it is, then you would still be incorrect for you have an american accent, as the englishman pointed out. Among those who speak the english language, english, irish, americans, new zealanders, et al, you are obvious as an american, and have an accent.

I could be Canadian, eh? Hoser!


If you sound different to anyone else then you have an accent.

We don’t sound different to anyone else. We are the only ones in the world who sound normal and you are obviously too insecure to admit it and just deal with it.

If I were arguing against me, I’d mention that the English language evolved in…England. Thus English people, if anyone, would be the only ones who could even come close to saying they had “no accent”. But of course it’s all relative isn’t it.

Miss Anthropic described my POV best however –



ac·cent ( P ) Pronunciation Key ( k s nt )
n.
3. A characteristic pronunciation, especially:
1. One determined by the regional or social background of the speaker.



As far as regional accents in the United States, there is none here in the Northwest. In other regions original immigrants' native languages have contributed to the regional accents. We don't have that. This area was never settled with any specific ethnic group. I suppose you could say that by virtue of not having a regional accent, that we have one.....but we don't!



On another note, we have –


What's all the whining about cultural imperialism? If you had your own culture, American imports wouldn't be a problem.

The bottom line is that people, esp. the young, will gravitate towards titillation and visions of hope, like economic and social independence. If your culture (wherever you are) is any good, those with taste will sustain it.

Really, what the complainers are worried about is national identity and their own place in the world. Screw you. I'll wear my Italian suits, drink French wine, speak Espanol and listen to English and German Romantic music, thank you.

"Americanism" isn't a bulldozer, but an ecology: it co-opts and reinvents. Jazz and American fiction and film are perhaps the most impressive results. All other cultures do this as well, but they're much slower.

perfectly reasonable.


See, every comment like that last bit annoys me^ Its left open as to what the reason is and im sure many if not most ignore the reasoning part and actually believe its superiority.

knows the above was reasonable and correct, but cannot refute it, so tries to convince self and others that he’s “ignoring” it – but obviously can’t (because he knows it’s correct) or else wouldn’t have posted anything at all


(throws out the line and waits patiently)


BTW, I was having a brain fart when I said "French wine" above -- it's better then Californian wine, but way overpriced. Australian wine is the best, esp. because I like shiraz; Spain comes second.

Italian is number one all the way.

[Robespierre]

I could be Canadian, eh? Hoser!

You could be a Tazmanian for all I care. You have an accent, whether your accent is shared by more or less people, you have one.

[Architectonic]

australia does have its own distinct culture

Yes, a distinct, watered down, but increasingly American culture. :ph34r:

[Pedro_The_Lion]

Well, I suppose it all rests on what you mean by "power structures". If you mean some group of individuals and their relationships that enables them to physically dominate another group, then I would suggest that the benefits for doing so, relative to the benefit of being cooperative would drop. In our current system, a corporation that can get away with some criminal behavior, poisoning the air for example, does so by befriending those who have the ability to physically dominate the rest, the federal government. Without such a centralized structure, it would become much more difficult to force other to accept these evil practices.

I may have missed your point entirely, I do that sometimes. So let me know.

Essentially that is what I meant but what about people who are too stupid/greedy/whatever to stop? In that scenario I think you would have to "force" cooperation ironically enough which doesn't necessarily mean an end of political centralization (or centralization of any type).

[Claverhouse]

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS

[Shimpei]

Here in Hungary people are enamoured of the stereotypical (hollywood-ish)American life. An average Hungarian idealizes American people but in fact it's envy. Hungarians are frustrated people ("My cow has just died, let the cow of my neighbor die too.").
Nationalist, orthodox, clerical, reactionary people tend to openly hate the U.S.
I've worked with American people, the cultural difference is obvious between us and them. Especially when it comes down to political correctness.
On the other hand when I told people here I was working for the U.S. Embassy, they went mentally drooling. The first thing they said: you must be paid an extremely high salary. I had to disappoint them: no, Hungarians there are paid earnings adjusted for the average Hungarian salaries, so the salaries American employees are paid are ten times as much as those Hungarians are paid. So much about that "equal opportunity" slogan...

[Hypnos]

Well, the US embassy has to pay US salaries to US diplomats and staff, otherwise they would work elsewhere. And why pay Hungarians more than you have to?

One promising development I see for India is that they are feeling less and less sorry for themselves as time passes. Amazing what market liberalization can do for an educated populace.

[Biff_Loman]

Well, the US embassy has to pay US salaries to US diplomats and staff, otherwise they would work elsewhere. And why pay Hungarians more than you have to?

One promising development I see for India is that they are feeling less and less sorry for themselves as time passes. Amazing what market liberalization can do for an educated populace.

Holy shit man, Hypnos is back. What is up d00d?

[dubbeltop]

My view of america is that of a lot of people happy drinkers until they drink too much and they fuck up the whole shit in a major bar fight. Seriously america and americans did some incredible stuff in history especially WWII and gave us a better life but somehow the world changed and america needs to get off his ass and start adepting to the world in which it is no longer numero uno. So what you still have plenty space left and a relaxed way of life which you can be proud off.Oh and try to be a little less full of yourself when your in afghanistan. These people are deadpoor but harder than a diamond because they dont need all that suv and hamburger crap. Because they wont retire in miami but on a graveyard.

[Hypnos]

Holy shit man, Hypnos is back. What is up d00d?
This is one subscription that survived.


My view of america is that of a lot of people happy drinkers until they drink too much and they fuck up the whole shit in a major bar fight. [...]
I think that requires that Americans even know that other countries exist. Surely, most do at some intellectual level, but it's just not on the radar -- even during war.

What Canadians and others who have dealings with the US don't realize is that America doesn't even think of them. They don't hate or want to assert dominance, they just don't even have others in mind. The US is unique because it's an entirely modern country, with abundant natural resources and space; yet, it is also geographically isolated -- there are only two borders, much of both through wilderness. What appears to be imperial designs (and might be on the part of certain politicians) is just fear and myopia on the part of people on the street.

[RottenApple]

geez ...the thread lives.

I thought I would give my South African perspective

It's kind of popular here to dislike Americans which irritates me a little. Criticising the US is a sure-fire way of bonding with another South African. It can really piss me off because I often feel as if these opinions are not based on cognitive thought but rather just trend and the need to fit in.

That said ...there are some things which grate my cheese. I often get the feeling that Americans think they own the word 'FREEDOM'. I can't stand that ubiquitous line used in almost any American TV series at some point or another. 'It's a free country isn't it ?' AARGH!!

Their general ignorance about the rest of the world is also nauseating...although it is understandable. The assumption that all countries are trying to do what they do but just don't do it as well. There was an American exchange student at my school and she was so surprised to find out how much higher our level of education was. She was a couple of years behind in most of the subjects and her mathematics was almost non existent...nice girl though.

The Americans I've met have been very nice people.

[MacGuffin]

america needs to get off his ass and start adepting to the world in which it is no longer numero uno.But we ARE still numero uno. Does the UN ever stop us from invading someone?

[tatsutahime6]

Peoples hate for america is irrational, even the politics side of it.

As an oft-misunderstood non-stereotypical American woman living abroad, I must say that it warms my heart to read this.

[dubbeltop]

Ahem yeah its numero uno debtor hihihihihihi.Show me the money they are shouting in china and europe.

[dubbeltop]

and no not the money your houses your cars and the land also plz cos those dollars are absolutly worthless.

[dubbeltop]

Retirement funds tapped; U.S. will pass $8.2 trillion ceiling around March 20

[dubbeltop]

But i admit nuthing can stop the american army but the american army itself or...superman :)

[Kathara]

In Romania there is a growing anti American trend, which was caused by some idiots in the American Embassy. 2 years ago a drunk marine drove his SUV into a car and killed 4 people, then was quickly taken out of Romania and "judged" in the USA, where he was found innocent, although he was drunk and speeding at the moment. The same thing happened again last month. The way I see it, we are a clock bomb of anti Americanism, and rightfully so.

-----

And we also share the prejudice that you are all fat and cant pin point your own country on the map. Blame Jay Leno for that!

[Zephyrus055]

And we also share the prejudice that you are all fat and cant pin point your own country on the map. Blame Jay Leno for that!
the USA is in North America in between Canada and Mexico.

I'm 5'7 and 130 lbs. Am I fat?

[Kathara]

the USA is in North America in between Canada and Mexico.

I'm 5'7 and 130 lbs. Am I fat?

Nope, but apparently you have eye problems. You missed the word prejudice.

(By the way, eat a little, girls dont like thin boys)

[Zephyrus055]

Nope, but apparently you have eye problems. You missed the word prejudice.

(By the way, eat a little, girls dont like thin boys)
haha.

Oh I do. I sit on a computer all day, and I eat way more food than anyone I know, yet I'm still thin! I think I have an outrageously active metabolism.

[Kathara]

haha.

Oh I do. I sit on a computer all day, and I eat way more food than anyone I know, yet I'm still thin! I think I have an outrageously active metabolism.

I hate you!

[Noses]

I always thought it was funny that people thought that we couldn't even point out our own country on a map, when 1 in 5 British school kids couldn't find the UK on a map either (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6074202.stm).

Of course, 1K kids isn't quite a very good sample size for the whole United Kingdom...

[Latte]

we burnt it down in the war of 1812 so they had to re-paint it white

General tendencies of people who's notion of self is sufficiently dependent on group identity to point out the flaws of their own group in other groups :happpy:

Makes for excellent entertainment :grin:


edit: offtopic, please delete my reply. Sowwy =(

[Nighthawk]

haha.

Oh I do. I sit on a computer all day, and I eat way more food than anyone I know, yet I'm still thin! I think I have an outrageously active metabolism.

I was the same way at your age. 5'11" and 135 lbs. I could eat whatever I wanted whenever. That all changed when I hit 40 :(

[nittanylion302]

When I went abroad people always wanted to know what state we were from.

You could think of the American States almost as european countries (some have similar physical and population sizes)

From my experience if you're not a loud asshole and try to blend in and speak the foreign language people won't initially think you are american.

Another thing is that people see americans as all being beautiful because of our exported media. They don't realize that we are mostly obese pigs who drive from walmart to the cheesecake factory to gorge ourselves.
Public transit is nonexistant and our cities take up huge areas because most people prefer a separated house, a cul-de-sac, and needing to drive everywhere as opposed to a walkable city or urban environment.

A significant portion of america is really the same suburbia over and over again. There is very little sense of place.

The places where you won't find this would be the East Coast cities(NY, Philly, Boston), Great Lakes(Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee), and Mississippi River cities(Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, St. Louis, New Orleans). Other than San Francisco, which is unique as a gold rush town, I don't think other places in the US are really that distinct in architecture or have real 'dense city' environments.

There is a ton of variety of culture in America too. East Coast rudeness is a relief to me because people are speaking what they really think. Southern hospitality is unnerving because they're lying to me about what they really think. Southern California fakeness pisses me off and Northwest Eco-Hippies are a bunch of weirdos.

But <3 America for all it's imperfections. Things could be much worse.

[firch]

the USA is in North America in between Canada and Mexico.

I'm 5'7 and 130 lbs. Am I fat?
Dunno, can you pin-point Canada and Mexico? :grin:

[edicius]

I think the deciding factor is where the person forming an opinion on the US is from. I'm sure thats been said.

[Latte]

I see America as a land of diversity, where you have extreme awesomeness and extreme fail at once. It breeds and attracts many cool intellectuals.

I wouldn't mind studying there, but don't think i would be comfortable investing any money in housing there though. Democracy y'know, i don't really agree with the larger groups of the population.

[Karl]

Democracy y'know, i don't really agree with the larger groups of the population.

I don't agree with the media either.

[Kathara]

I think the deciding factor is where the person forming an opinion on the US is from. I'm sure thats been said.

Nope, the prejudice about USA is pretty much the same around the world, except maybe for Muslim countries, and those countries that are so poor they dont give a flying fuck about USA.