Ancient Civilization Wars: Babylonian vs. Minoan

[Hustler]

This is a very important poll, so be sure to cast your vote. Tough choice for sure. Note that I've left out heavy-hitters like the Sumerians and Egyptians so as to promote a more even battle.

[sandwich]

Babylonians kicked ass. Almost as much as the Assyrians. Ashurbanipal was the shit.

Minoans jumped over bulls. That's kind of lame.

Edit: retracting lame comment. It does require serious balls to jump over a bull, but it is also an indicator of questionable taste in entertainment. Also, Babylonians were badass enough to conduct landwars in Asia.

[Anonymous]

As intriguing as the Minoan culture is, I'm gonna have to go with Babylonian on this one, if only for the more direct relevance.

[Hustler]

Babylonians kicked ass.


As intriguing as the Minoan culture is, I'm gonna have to go with Babylonian on this one, if only for the more direct relevance.

Favorite Babylonian king? Favorite thing about Babylon?

[notjeffgoldblum]

Babylonians. I have never heard of Minoa and I'm not going to look it up.

Edit: I looked it up. Babylonians.

[sandwich]

Favorite Babylonian king? Favorite thing about Babylon?

Nebuchadnezzar II, their association with Assyria mythology.

[ben from below]

Minoan, mostly for the story of Minos and Pasiphae.

[LastRailway]

After looking them both up, I think that Babylonian civilisation was more extended in time and space, while Minoan was a rather short period civilisation and very heavily influenced by other nearby civilisations.

[stopharian]

Babylonians

Hanging gardens +1
invention of beer +1
great king names: Nebuchadnezzar, Hammurabi, Nimrod etc. +1
Biblical inclusion as all encompassing symbol of evil(including eventual use by rastafarians) +1
Chucking people off Ziggurats +1
Kicking Ass all across the fertile crescent +1
Base 6 number system -1
Astronomy/Astrology +1


Minoans


Jumping over bulls +1
I love what the minoan ladies did with fashion. The way the tits jut straight out of the upper bodice of their dress is just fantastic. Along with the olive skin and the long tresses of ebony ringlets +2
Architectural use of color +1
Minoan column -1 maybe im too much of a traditionalist, but for me, the big end goes down
Comparative attractiveness of the site as a contemporary vacation destination +1
Sea Faring +1



Babylonians 6
Minoans 5

The Babylonians take it. However I think Ill be contemplating their victory from Crete. Hopefully I can find some local girls with a fetish for historical costumery.

[A Schnitzel]

I like the Minoans because they were smart enough to stay on an island in the mediterranean. Who gives a fuck about historical influence when you have your own party island? It also sounds like they really enjoyed themselves, which is a plus.

[last_caress]

I like the Minoans because they were smart enough to stay on an island in the mediterranean. Who gives a fuck about historical influence when you have your own party island? It also sounds like they really enjoyed themselves, which is a plus.

I'm not extremely knowledgeable in history but I endorse this lifestyle and will cast my vote accordingly.

[djm]

Babylonian - largely due the amusing (and probably inaccurate) description by Herodotus of their system of auctioning off women for marriage.

On a less flippant note, I think that their contribution to subsequent civilisations was greater and more lasting - particularly in terms of agriculture.

[Pooja]

I voted for the Minoan civilization simply because I find their mythology more fascinating. For example, Poseidon cursed the queen, Parsipae (Minos's wife) with zoophilia. So then, she convinced Daedalus to build her a hollow wooden cow for her to hide in. Then she waited there until a bull impregnated her. She then gave birth to the Minotaur, which would eat Athenian virgins. I also love the Ariadne/Theseus story.
Babylonian mythology is very boring in comparison.

[Dirac]

The bible makes Babylon sound really kickass.

[stopharian]

I voted for the Minoan civilization simply because I find their mythology more fascinating. For example, Poseidon cursed the queen, Parsipae (Minos's wife) with zoophilia. So then, she convinced Daedalus to build her a hollow wooden cow for her to hide in. Then she waited there until a bull impregnated her. She then gave birth to the Minotaur, which would eat Athenian virgins. I also love the Ariadne/Theseus story.
Babylonian mythology is very boring in comparison.

Not to be too nitpicky, but isnt that stuff really greek Mythology about the minoan civilization?

and the Baylonians would have The Epic of Gilgamesh which would be just as full of bride stealings, barnyard sex scenes, and godmen.

[nonperson]

Babylon mainly for their astronomy and maths.

Didn't they invent the brick too?

[slacker]

No contest, really.

The Babylonians are vastly overrated and comprise of the least interesting aspects of Mesopotamian culture.

The Minoans are cool and mysterious - the primary expression of a civilizational phenomenon on a select geographic region; its distance from the mean pattern of civilization is greater.

[Pooja]

Not to be too nitpicky, but isnt that stuff really greek Mythology about the minoan civilization?

and the Baylonians would have The Epic of Gilgamesh which would be just as full of bride stealings, barnyard sex scenes, and godmen.

Possibly. Historians haven't been able to distinguish between Mycenaean and Minoan mythologies. It's possible that the Minoans had such myths, but then again, it's also possible that these were myths that others constructed around the Minoan civilization. It's a mystery! :ph34r:

[Anonymous]

Favorite Babylonian king? Favorite thing about Babylon?

Hammurabi. My favorite thing is probably how they kept getting pwned, but it backfired on the conquerors and made them go native due to people liking their culture so much.

[LastRailway]

Babylonians 6
Minoans 5

The Babylonians take it. However I think Ill be contemplating their victory from Crete. Hopefully I can find some local girls with a fetish for historical costumery.

That's exactly what I needed. Though they're still quite close and I think Minoans should get +1 for having only the bronze age to actually develop a great civilisation and for being too close to the Mycenaeans and other civilisations simultaneously developing.

[Hustler]

After looking them both up, I think that Babylonian civilisation was more extended in time and space, while Minoan was a rather short period civilisation and very heavily influenced by other nearby civilisations.

Minoan: 2700 - 1450 BC, after which the Mycenaeans culture dominated Crete.

Babylonian: 1695 BC - 1500 BC; 1125 - 732 BC; 612 - 529 BC. Babylon itself lasted from about 2300 BC - 650 CE, but was only ruled by Babylonians for the three aforementioned periods.


and the Baylonians would have The Epic of Gilgamesh which would be just as full of bride stealings, barnyard sex scenes, and godmen.

Gilgamesh was Sumerian.

[Defensin]

Gilgamesh was Sumerian.
I commonly come across it credited to the Assyrians (that would be more specific).

Anyway, I'd say Babylonians, for starting as Amorite Nomads and surviving ( and rising) in such a competitive region. Hammorabi always strikes me as the man who broke the ancient -bedouin- curse in the Sumerian mythology of the Amorite (my best translation):
(the amori) his weapon is his life-long companion, he is not to bend a knee (show weakness or submission), he feeds on raw meet (fearless, rough & uncivilized), he will never own a home nor will he be held in a grave after his death to rise as a great king and write a code of civil order.

[teleforce]

minoan art is more interesting.

[Oso Mocoso]

Etemenanki, Hanging Gardens, Hammurabi.

Babylonians.

[OrionzRevenge]

Based on the strength of how each culture's ripples of influence move forward in time, I think Babylon made the bigger splash.

This may be purely due to the lesser being an Island and the other at the crossroads of East & West.

[LastRailway]

There's also the Cretan labyrinth at Knossos, which also seems to have been built during Minoan civilisation. But the Hanging Gardens is one of the seven wonders.

Neither had their own alphabet, of what I can find on the web, the Minoans using Linear B and the Babylonians the Sumerian alphabet.

And my knowledge on ancient history is insufficient to figure which civilisation had bigger impact, anyone knows anything about this?

[teleforce]

1. i like the octopus vase
2. and the snake goddess statuette
3. and this thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaistos_Disc) (is awesome because nobody knows wtf it is)


the Minoans using Linear B
i thought they used linear A and that the mycenaeans used linear B.

[Curtis24]

I'm guessing the Babylonians. They were a major empire at times and thus had to have strong militaries; the Minoans never were and were protected by isolation.

[Hustler]

Here are some things to consider:

Babylonian:

Throughout much of its 3,000 year history, Babylon was one of the most important cities in the ancient world of Mesopotamia and the surrounding regions. It was a center of trade and culture whose influence spread from Persia to Egypt to Greece to the northern reaches of India.

Some of the coolest aspects of Babylon were its monuments and its kings. The Tower of Babel and the Hanging Gardens were renown in the ancient world, though the details of these great works have been lost to history. Hammurabi, the first Babylonian Emperor, is also the earliest known lawgiver. His code remains one of the earliest set of laws in history, and was the most complex of its day. This would later go on to inform the Romans and the entirety of the Western world.

Nebuchadnezzar II is also of historical note. His father, Nabopolassar, had allied with the Medes to defeat the Assyrians and restore the Babylonian Empire, returning Babylon to autonomous control. Nebuchadnezzar inherited this kingdom and expanded it by driving back the Egyptians, defeating the Scythians, capturing Jerusalem, taking control of Syria and Phoenicia. He reined for nearly 50 years, which was quite a feat in a time when life was so short; he lived for 75 years. In order to secure a victory against the Assyrians, Nabopolassar had married Nebuchadnezzar to Amytis of Media, who was either the daughter or granddaughter of the King of the Medes. It was from this marriage that the Hanging Gardens of Babylon grew, in one of the ancient world's great love stories. Amytis was lonesome and homesick living in Babylon, so Nebuchadnezzar had all manner of flora native to Media brought to Babylon and created the Hanging Gardens for his queen, to remind her of home. A lot more can be said of this king, but the overall point is that he restored Babylon to greatness and, under him, some of the greatest architectural and engineering feats of the day were accomplished.

Minoan:

Much of the history of the Minoans is shrouded in mystery. Part of this is that their writing system, Linear A, has still not been deciphered. Thousands of artifacts with these mysterious glyphs have been found, yet no headway has been made into understanding their meaning. The Phaistos Disc, as has already been mentioned, is chief among these artifacts. What's especially interesting about the Disc is that it appears to have been made with a stamp or some kind of press, making it the world's earliest known example of printing, thousands of years before the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, or Gutenberg.

Another interesting aspect of Linear A is that it may have been an example of native writing. While the Babylonians used a writing system that was clearly derived from Sumerian (as it is thought that all writing systems in Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Mediterranean, Persia, and the surrounding areas were), some scholars believe the Minoans created their own system of writing without any external influence. While the origin of Minoan writing is still the subject of speculation, it is plain to scholars today that it cannot currently be traced back to anything else.

As has already been discussed, Minoan art was quite advanced for its day. Their art exhibits unusual technique, masterful craftsmanship, the ability to produce remarkable realism, and also hints of abstraction and improvisation. If you look at some of the pieces that have survived thousands of years, it really is quite amazing what they were able to produce. This, along with the writing, as well as their unusual cultural practices (matrilineal, men and women depicted engaging in activities together, indicating social equality, polyculture leading to a balanced diet, a history of peace, trade, and exploration instead of warfare, etc.) indicate a society strong in innovation and social justice. When you look at what little the shrouds of ancient mystery allow us to see about the Minoans, you see a culture that was thousands of years ahead of its time, and seemingly more advanced in so many ways than half of the cultures on the planet even today.

And plus there's always the labyrinth and their mysterious disappearance that just adds to their mystique.

So, as I said, it's a tough choice.

[LastRailway]

So, updating Stopharian's list:

Babylonians

3000 years of history +1
Culture that influenced most Mediterranean civilisations +2
Monuments / architecture +1
Hanging gardens (one of the seven wonders) +2
Tower of Babel +1
Base 6 number system +1
Astronomy/Astrology +1
Code of Hammurabi +1



Imperialistic -1
Arranged marriages out of interest -1


Minoans

Architecture / colours / monuments +1
Seafaring +1
Linear A - native writing +2
Phaestos disc + 1
Art +1
Social equality & justice +1
Peacefulness +1
Labyrinth +1



Jumping over bulls -1

Babylonians: 8
Minoans: 8

[Hustler]

Wait, so jumping over bulls is -1?

[LastRailway]

Eh, it's not something I generally appreciate much in people.

[Oso Mocoso]

Eh, it's not something I generally appreciate much in people.

I know. Don't you just hate people who jump over bulls? That's so annoying.

[stopharian]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o4aYlFJtFEM/SL3AfdgJfII/AAAAAAAAAaM/aeMtqylCHgk/s320/Bull+leaping.jpg

:nono:

[Curtis24]

Here are some things to consider:

Babylonian:

Throughout much of its 3,000 year history, Babylon was one of the most important cities in the ancient world of Mesopotamia and the surrounding regions. It was a center of trade and culture whose influence spread from Persia to Egypt to Greece to the northern reaches of India.

Some of the coolest aspects of Babylon were its monuments and its kings. The Tower of Babel and the Hanging Gardens were renown in the ancient world, though the details of these great works have been lost to history. Hammurabi, the first Babylonian Emperor, is also the earliest known lawgiver. His code remains one of the earliest set of laws in history, and was the most complex of its day. This would later go on to inform the Romans and the entirety of the Western world.

Nebuchadnezzar II is also of historical note. His father, Nabopolassar, had allied with the Medes to defeat the Assyrians and restore the Babylonian Empire, returning Babylon to autonomous control. Nebuchadnezzar inherited this kingdom and expanded it by driving back the Egyptians, defeating the Scythians, capturing Jerusalem, taking control of Syria and Phoenicia. He reined for nearly 50 years, which was quite a feat in a time when life was so short; he lived for 75 years. In order to secure a victory against the Assyrians, Nabopolassar had married Nebuchadnezzar to Amytis of Media, who was either the daughter or granddaughter of the King of the Medes. It was from this marriage that the Hanging Gardens of Babylon grew, in one of the ancient world's great love stories. Amytis was lonesome and homesick living in Babylon, so Nebuchadnezzar had all manner of flora native to Media brought to Babylon and created the Hanging Gardens for his queen, to remind her of home. A lot more can be said of this king, but the overall point is that he restored Babylon to greatness and, under him, some of the greatest architectural and engineering feats of the day were accomplished.

Minoan:

Much of the history of the Minoans is shrouded in mystery. Part of this is that their writing system, Linear A, has still not been deciphered. Thousands of artifacts with these mysterious glyphs have been found, yet no headway has been made into understanding their meaning. The Phaistos Disc, as has already been mentioned, is chief among these artifacts. What's especially interesting about the Disc is that it appears to have been made with a stamp or some kind of press, making it the world's earliest known example of printing, thousands of years before the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, or Gutenberg.

Another interesting aspect of Linear A is that it may have been an example of native writing. While the Babylonians used a writing system that was clearly derived from Sumerian (as it is thought that all writing systems in Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Mediterranean, Persia, and the surrounding areas were), some scholars believe the Minoans created their own system of writing without any external influence. While the origin of Minoan writing is still the subject of speculation, it is plain to scholars today that it cannot currently be traced back to anything else.

As has already been discussed, Minoan art was quite advanced for its day. Their art exhibits unusual technique, masterful craftsmanship, the ability to produce remarkable realism, and also hints of abstraction and improvisation. If you look at some of the pieces that have survived thousands of years, it really is quite amazing what they were able to produce. This, along with the writing, as well as their unusual cultural practices (matrilineal, men and women depicted engaging in activities together, indicating social equality, polyculture leading to a balanced diet, a history of peace, trade, and exploration instead of warfare, etc.) indicate a society strong in innovation and social justice. When you look at what little the shrouds of ancient mystery allow us to see about the Minoans, you see a culture that was thousands of years ahead of its time, and seemingly more advanced in so many ways than half of the cultures on the planet even today.

And plus there's always the labyrinth and their mysterious disappearance that just adds to their mystique.

So, as I said, it's a tough choice.

Its a hard question because I assume the Minoans probably had a strong navy, being an island culture that managed to survive in a contentious area of the ancient world; whereas, I don't know if the Babylonians even had military navy. But they clearly had the stronger land military, since they ruled an empire with many different ethnicities and had rivals to contend with. So the Babylonians would not be able to get to the Minoans, but the Minoans would be creamed if they tried to attack the Babylonians.

[lowtech redneck]

I think the Minoans had indoor plumbing (too lazy to look it up right now), and Babylonian mythology was depressing as hell (unless that was just the Sumerians...). I'm gonna go with the Minoans on a provisional basis, until I'm in the mood to research ancient civilizations again.

[MoneyJungle]

I don't hear reggae singers bitching about Minoa.

[Arcturus]

I don't know much about the Babylonians but I remember doing a unit on the Minoans in my Grade 11 Ancient Civilizations course. I like the palace at Knossos on Crete. I liked their frescoes with the bull imagery. Apparently their women walked around topless (pretty sure I heard that somewhere..). They get my vote.