getting stuff done (long term projects)

[alex]

From the other boards:

Whatever happens, we need to do it in the next few weeks. We're intps after all, this won't hold our interest for more than a few months.
haha So true. At school I've noticed three distinct stages each semester. Initial interest, disinterest, renewed interest (just in time for exams). And most (narrow) subjects that I go after myself are the same, though the cycle is much shorter.

My question is how do you guys deal with long term projects or endeavors that may take even longer than a few months and pretty much require steady study to do well? For example, language study. You can't just binge and expect proficiency -- as is true if you wish to thoroughly study any subject. I suppose this question is about discipline at the root.

[Johnny]

That's an excellent question. However, I'm not sure that the issue is a lack of discipline on the part of people with the INTP personality preference.

Most of the people I've gotten to know walk a much tighter circle than I do - they've gone around many more times to get what they can out of the path they're taking.

My circle's radius, on the other hand, is much larger. It may have taken me longer to get back to the beginning, but that doesn't mean I've been moving at a slower pace...

[spaced]

Yeah, I've noticed the same pattern as Alex. I keep putting classwork off until I have to do it, but once I start studying (usually the night before :) ), I usually get really into the subject.

If it's a research paper, I tend to spend a ridiculously disproportionate amount of time doing the research part as opposed to the paper part. I keep convincing myself that I need to do more research, but it's usually just an excuse to read more :)

[Miss Padfoot]

If it's a research paper, I tend to spend a ridiculously disproportionate amount of time doing the research part as opposed to the paper part. I keep convincing myself that I need to do more research, but it's usually just an excuse to read more.Hah! Me too. That couldn't be more true. I love the researching part, mostly because it allows me to get on mental tangents. I even research when I'm trying to write long, passionate (at the start) rants in my LJ - I can't stand putting something in my journal unless it's backed up with reason and/or facts. It's really quite funny.

I really, really wish I could help you, Alex, but I can't. Half the time I end up doing three-month projects in the span of a week, unless my parents know about it, in which case they get on my case and force me to spread it out. One suggestion I have is to find people - classmates or anyone else - to talk about the project with, to keep you interested.

[Birnam]

You're right, binge learning doesn't cut it with languages (I'm working on Latin right now, it will make the fourth I've started in the last couple years, and I'm no good at any of them :ph34r: )

Research is dangerous, essp on the internet. I'll be being good and doing what I'm supposed to be doing, then I'll see some comment about whatever and I'll have to go chase it until I come to another comment that sets me off in another direction entirely. Hours later I'll remember what I was supposed to be doing and work on that until some other new idea catches my eye and I'm off again.

I've found a work around to my problem of not sticking with a subject until I know something about it- or at least it prolongs the interest time period...
When I find my interest waning, I pick up something related (not too closely) and study that instead, then, when that runs out of 'juice' I go back to what I was studying in the first place. example- right now I'm studying Norse myth and the Icelandic sagas. So, I'll read some of the sagas, then perhaps try to relate the Norse mythological symbolism to another culture, then translate one of their poems into literal english, then go back to reading the sagas (those things can get so dry), and so on until I get sick of it and start a different project.

..reading my post over, I'm feeling rather Fish today- sheesh..

[sme_bro]

I make the subject my own by twisting whatever the criteria was in the beggining so that the topic is something i can be interested in.
But still that dosnt work because then i start just researching the subject that i am interested in instead of actually doing the work itself.
But i think making it my own helps.
I tried learning french-then spanish-i ended up giving up both.
good luck with keeping on track yourself

[paladinoflunaria]

Division56 wrote:
Whatever happens, we need to do it in the next few weeks. We're intps after all, this won't hold our interest for more than a few months.


That's me.


Quote:
If it's a research paper, I tend to spend a ridiculously disproportionate amount of time doing the research part as opposed to the paper part. I keep convincing myself that I need to do more research, but it's usually just an excuse to read more.
Hah! Me too. That couldn't be more true.

Same here.

I usually set a bunch of goals and never accomplish any of them. I always end up with half-finished projects. Da Vinci curse.

[paladinoflunaria]

I think that what would work best for me is to create a scenario where I am required to complete the project. I'd have to get it done. It's also much easier to create that kind of scenario than to actually accomplish the goal, so it is more efficient.

[Odyssey]

My question is how do you guys deal with long term projects or endeavors that may take even longer than a few months and pretty much require steady study to do well?

I have one powerful answer that you probably won't like if you're an INTP.

PEOPLE. Finding the proper individuals to support you is the best way - that I can remember at the moment - to be motivated in the long term. I'm good at piano because I have had piano teachers on a weekly basis for 10 years, which helps keep me going in the low-motivation periods. I'm only good at school because my parents value it and want me to do well, and provide useful advice - usually advice that I don't want to hear, but I usually feel minimally supported in doing well.

Adults are the best, in my opinion. Teachers, neighbors, parents' friends, aunts/uncles who can keep in touch, anyone who's interested and excited and encourages your effort(s). Peers can only support you reliably if you're not competing with them.

Also, consider the idea that interest is based on placement and focus of attention. The greater the attentive focus, the greater the curiosity breeds.

~Odyssey

[Johnny]

Odyssey:PEOPLE.

I just realized that language study, for one, requires practice with speaking and listening as one advances. This kind of support sure helps there.

[Google Monster]

I find one way to do long term projects. Split them into many short term projects. When it comes time for me to read books i make into reading a chapter or two each time i decide to pick up the book. But there are some books that just grab my mind and i can't put it down until i am finished. Like with losing weight i just made goals to lose 5 pounds. So far i've lost 75 pounds and soon at my long term goal.

[giftedmadness@hotmail.com]

I need to learn how to discipline myself with writing. I cannot finish projects I start and can't seem to focus myself on a particular project. ;- /

[Google Monster]

I have a habit of writing to the point and leaving out the details.

[Vagabond]

Odyssey: PEOPLE?! :blink: You've gotta be nuts. :P :D

[antireconciler]

I totally agree with Odyssey. I don't know how that works, but if you can find a friend to keep you honest on your projects, it makes all the difference in the world. Maybe it helps to know someone cares or that someone is keeping you on the right track. If I practice karate at home, for example, everything gets half-effort and I don't care. If I'm in a group karate class, I can work myself until the floor sways and keep going.

[Division56]

I'm with Vaga...

[Horger]

I find myself unable to complete huge projects. Maybe I just haven't had the opportunities to find a large project that I am actually interested in.

For school, I dread study and research. Research is fun and interesting, but I can never do it correctly.

For instance, I was assigned a paper in a government class about a year and a half ago. I chose the Iran-Contra affair as my topic. I started the research last minute, of course. I was making good progress and learning alot about it, but I kept seeing all these details that I thought were important and I didn't want to leave out of my paper. I tried to put every possible thing related to the Iran-Contra affair into my paper. I just didn't know where to stop, so I ended up with a very informative, but very BORING paper that did get me a good grade, but no one really liked it.

[Birnam]

People! eek :ph34r:

[NGene]

People! eek :ph34r:

They're scary but it works. :ph34r:

Actually people I'm working/studying with influence me a little too much. It's very important for me to fit in the group and be the competent one, which leads into unnecessary trouble in my work/studies if I don't.

[Miss Padfoot]

The other suggestion would be discipline & the power to motivate oneself. This is perhaps a natural part of the J-domain ... but it's also a question of habit.As much as I dislike the people suggestion, I dislike that one even more. :P I'm not going to explain why right now. I think I'd just get into argumentative trouble with everyone.

The people one... I don't know. I am the most hypersensitive person in the world to "nagging" (in quotes because I've been told I have a very inclusive definition of the term). I HATE it when people are constantly asking me when I'm going to do this, have I finished that... I just don't like updating people with my progress. I find it very irritating. I don't know why.

On the other hand, I do know of a couple of teachers who have been known to help me in a homework-crunch-time-crisis...

[antireconciler]

The people one... I don't know. I am the most hypersensitive person in the world to "nagging" (in quotes because I've been told I have a very inclusive definition of the term). I HATE it when people are constantly asking me when I'm going to do this, have I finished that... I just don't like updating people with my progress. I find it very irritating. I don't know why.

People aren't going to help anyone much unless they want what the person is saying for thierself. To me, people are great when, deep down, I want something, but the effort for it has demoralized me. They help me out of the slump. It also prevents me from becoming demoralized in the first place. People provide clear thinking when my own is not. Ideally, I should always be able to provide myself with clear thinking and thus motivate myself to accomplish my goals with or without people there to support me, I agree. People who want me to do stuff I just don't want for myself, is quite another story. They're just irritating.

[Birdsnest]

I am also a procrastinator, but learned some study tips that helped a little.

Notes and study time:

Take notes in class. As you write, put the date and page number on the top of the page. At night, take out those notes, spread them out on a large table, re-read and retype them and put them back in binder again. (You have to force yourself to read your notes a minimum of 2-3 times, for several days in a row, this makes it so the information goes into long term memory).

Reschedule your 24 hour day:

Take your daily schedule and look at it like its a pie with 24 hours. First, alot 1 hour of study & reading for every 1 hour of class time. If you take 4 hours of class per day, you need 4 hours of study each day. Sleep 8 hours, eat & cook & shop 2 hours, work 8 hours, study 4 hours, tv 2 hours, socialize 0 hours, you have to cut out some things in order to make the study schedule work. Divide your 24 hours up realistically and figure out what you have to cut out, but be sure to include enough study time each night.

Disclaimer:

I only offer this as a tip, because I procrastinated terribly through most of my college life, and crammed last minute all the time. Knowing how much study time you should allow helped, and also going to the library to study helped instead of trying to study at home. Having a specific area in your house like a table to spread out your notes on really helps. Also, knowing not to study in your bedroom or in bed, or in any position that isn't sitting upright so you fall asleep while reading helps. Otherwise, you just need to have a burning desire to get through it, or a need to improve your job skills to get through it I guess. :blink:

With other projects, like my back yard landscaping, I take my time with that because I can't afford to do it all at once. I finally got some lawn in because my son got it free from a construction site, and I add one or two things a year over the last 12 years. I am in no hurry to complete that, its like an ongoing thing. My stepmom once said, "Don't you like it when you complete a project? & Doesn't it bother you to not complete a project?" - This was in reference to my landscaping my backyard. Over the last 12 years its slowly been improved on, but the answer is, it truly doesn't bother me to leave certain things open ended. I can complete things at work and school, but other things like yard work and interior decorating, I really don't mind leaving it because I know its an ongoing thing. For those things that require a lot of cash, they have to stay open ended. Cash would help "finish" things, but I don't really mind "in-progress" status.

[antireconciler]

Take your daily schedule and look at it like its a pie with 24 hours. First, alot 1 hour of study & reading for every 1 hour of class time. If you take 4 hours of class per day, you need 4 hours of study each day. Sleep 8 hours, eat & cook & shop 2 hours, work 8 hours, study 4 hours, tv 2 hours, socialize 0 hours, you have to cut out some things in order to make the study schedule work. Divide your 24 hours up realistically and figure out what you have to cut out, but be sure to include enough study time each night.

I tried this a couple times when I was concerned about the way I was managing my time during school, but found it very ineffective. Maybe it's that P. This is pretty J-ish. I find I always know what has to be done next both to keep up in school and assure mental health.

[HairlessBluetick]

The people one... I don't know. I am the most hypersensitive person in the world to "nagging" (in quotes because I've been told I have a very inclusive definition of the term). I HATE it when people are constantly asking me when I'm going to do this, have I finished that... I just don't like updating people with my progress. I find it very irritating. I don't know why.


I agree. If there's anything that will get me to NOT finish something, it's another person telling me I should. HOWEVER... there are some instances (and I think these are the ones that were being referred to originally) where genuine human interaction can be a HUGE motivator (Imagine that! ) Now, granted, its rare for me (and INTPs in general I imagine) to respect another person enough to be motivated by them, but it does happen.

[Odyssey]

The thing with the PEOPLE suggestion, I think, is to somehow set up a situation where respectable others are admiring you for your work. Or, where they are at least interested. It IS so irritating to report to someone who's unsatisfied with your efforts. They must have high enough self-esteem to send vibes of encouragement even when you're not doing well -- assuming that you're trying enough! Ideally, to feel much less sensitive to "nagging", set goals/expectations for yourself higher than what anyone else expects of you, and meet at least most of them. That way you'll both feel independent AND supported. I am speaking from successful experience. I'm sure these aren't the only People tips, though.

~Odyssey

--------------




The people one... I don't know. I am the most hypersensitive person in the world to "nagging" (in quotes because I've been told I have a very inclusive definition of the term). I HATE it when people are constantly asking me when I'm going to do this, have I finished that... I just don't like updating people with my progress. I find it very irritating. I don't know why.


I agree. If there's anything that will get me to NOT finish something, it's another person telling me I should. HOWEVER... there are some instances (and I think these are the ones that were being referred to originally) where genuine human interaction can be a HUGE motivator (Imagine that! ) Now, granted, its rare for me (and INTPs in general I imagine) to respect another person enough to be motivated by them, but it does happen.

[flan2dave]

I haven't done anything necessarily project oriented for a while. The type of courses I'm taking right now do not lend themselves to long term assignments until later studies, where you have a sufficient knowledge base to conduct independant research or building something complex. Any project I might design myself probably wouldn't last for months. I haven't been able to think that extensively in the current subjects I'm interested in, or the project would be more about work than learning to justify the time I would have to spend.

Not strictly speaking of projects, I don't have trouble focusing on a subject for an extended period of time. This summer, I've continually found reading material in mathematics, physics, and the history and people surrounding the subjects (my first "real" interest in history). My primary goal is to build a solid enough understanding where the knowledge takes a landscape's form in the mind's eye, where I can choose to play and explore without the prodding of textbook questions or an author's prompting. It's been slow, sometimes I worry about how sluggish my mind can be, but there's been enough progress to motivate me to read and think several hours each morning, always putting off breakfast. It has become a cycle where my mind will actually feel fuzzy and discontent if I don't spend a sufficient amount of time thinking on the subjects. On a good day, it will feel as though a whole, previously hidden world revealed itself.

As for the people factor (which I agree with oddyssey that it's important for the same reasons) if I wanted to talk about the details, I would go straight to my math or physics teachers, especially mathematics. Exploring deep truths and mysterious concepts is not just a conversational topic to them, it's a life's passion. As is teaching. I would feel most comfortable expressing my excitement to them, because they not only share it ten fold, they love to offer guidance in where to look next.

[allendobkin]

I also have a hard time finishing long term projects. Here is one thing that has helped me al

[Seraph]

I am terrible at finishing projects. If it weren't for deadlines, I probably would never finish anything. I'm a well of ideas, but I just can't seem to take them further than the first few steps before thinking of another idea I consider even better.

[Francis]

I have suffered a lot from the same problem. (Playing computer games, doing nothing, sleeping, ... being bored but still not wanting to work.. etc..)


BUT.. there is HOPE. Even for the INTP! The answer can be found in this book I read some time ago: "The Now Habit" by Neil Fiore. (Moderators: I hope you don't consider this post spam. If you do let me know and I'll remove the post, but I think you'd loose a (imho) valuable contribution to this thread.)

The idea is to find something that pulls us toward finishing our goals instead of pushing ourselfs to start working. This way an unconcious desire for work will start to grow.

Sounds to good to be true? It isn't! It worked for me. Well.. I admit I still have some struggles, but work is divided in 30 minute segments. It's not that hard to motivate myself to work for only 30 minutes.

Greetings,
Francis

[Odyssey]

The Now Habit is an EXCELLENT book! I must have recommended it in the forum's previous incarnation. A life saver, really.

The Now Habit The Now Habit The Now Habit The Now Habit

(Me? Thankful? What makes you think that?)

~Odyssey

[alex]

The Now Habit
Because of the recommendations here, I bought this book used off of amazon about ~1.5 months ago. It really is a good book on the subject. It approaches procrastination as a symptom as opposed to a problem and then offers a number of solutions with respect to those problems. Although it's not perfect, I recommend it.

Choice was one of the important concepts for me.

[Edmond Zedo]

A support system can do wonders. For instance, I race bicycles, and if teammates and I have scheduled rides, I don't have to decide whether or not to train. If left to my devices, I too often neglect it.

[Totenkopf]

I am somewhat embarassed to admit that I recently bought a set of self hypnosis cds called "Productivity Engineering: Accomplish More In Less Time. End Procrastination. Eliminate Self Sabotage" by Neil Fiore author of the "Now Habit."

You know what? They're not too bad. I don't think I have been "hypnotized" but I do get something out them. Basically they reinforce many of the same points covered in the Now Habit. I was skeptical about the whole self-hypnosis thing, but I do think there is a value to them (go ahead and call me a sucker but I am desperate to overcome my procrastination habit).

If they hadn't been done by Neil Fiore, I wouldn't have bought them. Anyway for what it's worth, I would recommend the series. Also they throw in a "Mental Toughness" cd by Neil Fiore for free.

[file cabinet]

I am somewhat embarassed to admit that I recently bought a set of self hypnosis cds called "Productivity Engineering: Accomplish More In Less Time. End Procrastination. Eliminate Self Sabotage" by Neil Fiore author of the "Now Habit."

You know what? They're not too bad. I don't think I have been "hypnotized" but I do get something out them. Basically they reinforce many of the same points covered in the Now Habit. I was skeptical about the whole self-hypnosis thing, but I do think there is a value to them (go ahead and call me a sucker but I am desperate to overcome my procrastination habit).

If they hadn't been done by Neil Fiore, I wouldn't have bought them. Anyway for what it's worth, I would recommend the series. Also they throw in a "Mental Toughness" cd by Neil Fiore for free.

on a somewhat related note, maybe this will interest you:
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=1439