Quake hits Haiti

[Helios]

Sounds like a mess. Those poor bastard were poor enough already! Even the government is hamstrung

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_haiti_earthquake

[attila_the_hunny]

I've never heard of Hati. Do they have a lot of hats there?

[Helios]

Reuters video showed numerous bodies beneath collapsed walls and the presidential palace lying in ruins. President René Garcia Préval was reported to be safe.

Numerous other public buildings were destroyed, including the parliament building, the Finance Ministry, the Public Works Ministry, the Palace of Justice and Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Port-au-Prince, the national cathedral, Haiti TV reported.

The main United Nations building in Port-au-Prince collapsed and a number of personnel were unaccounted for, said U.N. peacekeeping chief Alain Le Roy. He said other U.N. installations also were seriously damaged


ouch

[qualia]

God kicks people when they're down.

[vahrion]

I don't suppose this would work then, would it?:no:

"Haiti needs to pray. We all need to pray together."

[doob]

http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/05/a-coup-continues-to-govern-haiti/

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0318-03.htm

[avolkiteshvara]

The piece of shit of an island just got much worse.

[Helios]

I don't suppose this would work then, would it?:no:

He warned 'em/us (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes%209:11&version=ASV):sadbanana:

[Madrigal]

http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/05/a-coup-continues-to-govern-haiti/

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0318-03.htm

Thanks, everyone should read that.

[INTPERSON]

It's bittersweet, isn't it?

[AllAboutSoul]

:sadbanana: for Haiti.

[jyng1]

Twitter and Facebook become emergency communication tools... Who knew?

It looks like it might be the biggest loss of life for the UN development team ever and potentially a massive loss of life for the general Haitian population.

The worst is probably still to come.

[Ferrus]

The worst is probably still to come.
Yes, although a tsunami in the carribean was avoided.

[jyng1]

Yes, although a tsunami in the carribean was avoided.

Lol; I was trying to bring in the Tsunami thing to include the boxing day earthquakes and Samoa last year as a major cause of death from earthquakes (mainly cause the houses they lived in wouldn't have killed many even if they did fall down).

I knew someone would point out the lack of a Tsunami in Haiti (also in Italy; they just had 500 year old stone buildings fall on their heads).

We also had the 2nd biggest earthquake of 2009 here, but as it occurred in the middle of 1.5 million hectares of wilderness the only people that noticed were two fishermen who woke to a 30cm swell rocking them for breakfast... It did move us 30 cm closer to Australia though.

[kuranes]

God kicks people when they're down.
Apparently so....:sadbanana:

I read Doob's article too. Was not aware of that.

[Madrigal]

Today my sister and I were reading about it and we both started to cry. It's such a terrible tragedy. She asked me how we can just go on our daily lives without doing anything, and I asked what we could possibly do about it. It's going to be anarchy, crime, plagues, there could even be more earthquakes. I finally said, "the best thing they could do is permanently evacuate that godforsaken piece of land for once and for all." Which got her all fired up. Eh. Now she's all, "I'm joining doctors without borders". Uh. Great. :mellow:

[BrownBear]

Every time I see this thread title I think the classic FPS has finally hit the Haitian market.

[LastRailway]

This sucks so much because there's absolutely nothing one can do on an individual level and governments and organisations worldwide are very unlikely to do anything at all, other than resort to charity.

This planet sucks really badly.

[Harion]

Every time I see this thread title I think the classic FPS has finally hit the Haitian market.

you beat me to the punch.
i was gonna say that.

[Arcturus]

This planet sucks really badly.
Yes. Should have evolved on the moon - no plate movements there, thus no earthquakes, volcanoes, etc. Living on a geologically active planet is interesting, but then you get stuff like this.

[Neville]

So, now everyone gives a shit about Haiti?

[Madrigal]

So, now everyone gives a shit about Haiti?

You're so... real.

[Yummy]

It just gets me so disappointed and I shouldn't of had any expectations anyway. Now Haiti is suddenly relevant again...

Maybe it's the jump start they need to get their shit together.

[Limey]

I don't care
Yeah I said it.

[somnium]

They are badly fucked: the port is inoperational, the airport has one runway open but lacks heavy lifting gear to unload aid supplies, fuel to refuel planes, and space to put any more incoming aircraft (to the extent that further relief flights are blocked), and the main road from the Dominican Republic is blocked by a bridge collapse.

The probability of getting any significant external aid to extricate trapped survivors is essentially zero.

[Hustler]

This sucks so much because there's absolutely nothing one can do on an individual level and governments and organisations worldwide are very unlikely to do anything at all, other than resort to charity.

Charity is arguably better than nothing. If you're looking to help, that is.

[Lurker]

Maybe it's the jump start they need to get their shit together.

:facepalm:

Think about what you just said. Does it make any sense?

[INTPERSON]

I don't care
Yeah I said it.

I'll do you one better.
Drop a bomb. Blame our enemies.

[LastRailway]

Charity is arguably better than nothing. If you're looking to help, that is.

In the case of such an emergency, charity is definitively better than nothing in order to help. However charity does not resolve usually, it just offers some relief for the moment and it promotes the wrong mindset when it comes to facing problems, I think.

[Ferrus]

In the case of such an emergency, charity is definitively better than nothing in order to help. However charity does not resolve usually, it just offers some relief for the moment and it promotes the wrong mindset when it comes to facing problems, I think.
What should be done then?

[kble]

Every time I see this thread title I think the classic FPS has finally hit the Haitian market.

+1

tabula rasa, man

[Limey]

Someone should release a Port Au Prince .pak file, it would be fucking awesome. They could have big women running, naked at you on the street, titties akimbo and wide, voodoo bug eyes.

Hell, make it Quake 6 - "where the third world meets the western hemisphere".

When being a South Florida cab driver is your idea of Heaven, then you've probably come a long way.
They let Cubans in, here in the US, they kick Haitians back, even when they make landfall, it's a self-evident double standard in a country that obviously tries to take the higher ground of Religious right at a national level.

WHY, do they do that? - ask yourself.

[Madrigal]

It makes sense to me and that's all that really matters. Sometimes people need wakeup calls. That country had (maybe even still has?) so much potential, but there was too much corruption and just bullshit going on.

You're a moron.

[Ferrus]

WHY, do they do that? - ask yourself.
I think it's pretty well accepted by all involved that the Cuban exiles make good propoganda, as Haitians don't. I don't know if something so patently obvious can be called a double standard, more an open display of political expediency.

[qualia]

It just gets me so disappointed and I shouldn't of had any expectations anyway. Now Haiti is suddenly relevant again...

Maybe it's the jump start they need to get their shit together.Yummy, they're a self-freed colony of slaves. They don't have a lot of arable land, and a lot of the natural resources they did have were taken by the French. They're badly deforested because people are literally so poor they have to go cut timber to cook their food. So they can't produce much. They don't even have great sources for potable water.

There are very few schools, and very few educated people to build them. So they can't create intellectual property.

They must import nearly all their food, and food is goddamn expensive. America heavily subsidizes our food, which is great for us, but drives up global food prices. You easily pay double in Europe for food what you do here in some places. That also applies to Haiti. Haiti has no means of independently generating wealth, a lot of Haitian immigration, legal or not, is so they can send money back to Haiti. Something like 1/3rd of their income comes from relatives working here. That's not laziness. There is no way to generate wealth in Haiti.

So if you took corruption out of the equation, it'd be like bailing a bucket out of an ocean of trouble.

Anyway, I'm not sure what they're going to do. I heard some figure like 34 thousand gallons of water were brought in by plane. That's just a crazy volume, and that'd maybe cover 70k people max. I'm just worried how many people are going to die from dehydration now.

This is like worse than the Tsunami.

[notjeffgoldblum]

http://imgur.com/KFZt1.jpg

[Madrigal]

I wasn't saying they were lazy or that they deserved to be hit by an earthquake. I know they're a self-freed colony of slaves and I guess I expected too much from them. Many just flee the country instead of trying to make a difference or solve the problem. There's absolutely no way to generate wealth in Haiti? None?

I'm not sure how to get what I'm trying to say out, so I'm a bit flabbergasted. Not only that, I think it's funny how people zoomed in on my comment. Anyway, thanks for replying to this in the manner you did.

Stop playing the blooming idiot. You don't "jumpstart" a country by killing 100,000 people and destroying its infrastructure. There's nothing to "interpret" about that statement - you are literally saying the country is such a big pile of fail that massive death and destruction will wipe the slate clean. As if poverty and foreign interference had nothing to do with their previous situation, and this won't compound that. As if the population itself is responsible for its plight and should be killed so things can be made right. There's a very fine line - if any - between the baffling stupidity and insensitivity in that and Pat Robertson's statements. So spare me your bullshit disingenuity. Go stand in a demolition site.

[LastRailway]

What should be done then?

I really don't have answers on this.

I don't know much about Haiti, but of what I've read in the past and I read now, charity is not what Haiti and other impoverished countries need to solve their problems.

I think the problem of Haiti and other territories suffering of natural disasters is, well, the other governments, especially the strong economies of the world. An island in a seismogenic zone (I think, but I am not sure, that the mere fact that they are islands somewhere is an indicator that the zone is seismogenic) should have, if not all buildings, at least hospitals and maybe schools or some public buildings designed to be earthquake-resistant. Japan has this kind of buildings, probably other rich countries I don't know of, earthquake engineering is pretty popular there.

What about Haiti? It has been a country struggled by colonialism and dictatorships, and has always been heavily dependant on importing goods. Poor economy, inflation, very low income (80% of the population in poverty) and only this year the World Bank decided to start thinking about cancelling it's external debt. There was not any prevision of earthquake engineering, not even in hospitals, hell, there is not prevision of people getting fed and educated as it should be.

Regarding charity, these people need water, food, medical help, etc, but, more than charity, it seems to me that these people need a perspective to re-built and improve their lives. Maybe governments of the developed world could completely reconstruct Haiti and provide earthquake-resistant buildings for hospitals, schools and housing, send and pay doctors and other specialists, etc? Could they do all this without entering in any way at all in the politics or the decision making of the country? Sometimes when people (or governments) "help", they then feel entitled to order around those that received the help/charity/whatever you call it.

To sum up, I have no freakin idea what should be done. I find charity inefficient and the "better than nothing" part of it is still not very convincing.

I really don't know what could be done.

[LastRailway]

Stop playing the blooming idiot. You don't "jumpstart" a country by killing 100,000 people and destroying its infrastructure.

I did not read it like that (though maybe that's what he was on about, not sure). I think he meant that maybe, after this disaster, the people of Haiti will not anymore tolerate corrupted governments to play with them and to keep leading their country in the list of the more impoverished countries of the planet.

That's how I read it, anyway, though I'm not sure I agree with that. It's not the fault of Haitian people, IMO, that there is such corruption in Haiti.

[ApeTheDog]

It makes sense to me and that's all that really matters. Sometimes people need wakeup calls. That country had (maybe even still has?) so much potential, but there was too much corruption and just bullshit going on.

It doesn't work that way, Yummy. The majority of people aren't in need of a wake-up call. They know their country could do better but they don't have any power to make changes. The ones who are in power are profiting from the corruption, so they don't care.

[Madrigal]

Where is your proof? I don't know how all these accusations came from a sentence. I don't see any of this written in my posts and I would not write any of that in my post. I've been on this site for a month now and you think you're able to tell when I'm being genuine and disingenuous.

"Humans have a tendency to pull together in tragedy"---is more what I was getting at.

Oh, I guess I was presumptuous to note any condescension whatsoever in, "it's a jumpstart to get their shit together" and "there was too much corruption and bullshit going on". From the bottom of your heart, you were simply saying this historically vapulated country needs to be crushed by the greatest natural catastrophe we have seen on the continent, so that people will realize they don't really know what real misery is.

Thanks for clarifying. You sound like a much better person now.

[LastRailway]

That is what I was kind of getting at. I could have just said that I did not give a shit about the country and good for them, which is far from what I think. Pride is foolish, but I wanted to be proud of that country.

My main objection is that no country can develop on its own - world politics will always be on the game. Haitians can only do so much, France and the US have literally sucked their country for centuries and current world politics affect Haiti's economy and status.

[ApeTheDog]

My main objection is that no country can develop on its own - world politics will always be on the game. Haitians can only do so much, France and the US have literally sucked their country for centuries and current world politics affect Haiti's economy and status.

Exactly. Most of the developed countries had the advantage of being able to develop without the neighboring countries having much of an advantage. Belgium grew rich from weaving fabric. I doubt we'd have managed to get rich from our farmers doing all this work if the neighboring country had a factory that spat out stuff of a higher quality, for a lower price, at a ratio of 1000 times what we produced.

[LastRailway]

Yes, I know that they can't do everything. But I don't understand why people think they can't do anything.

Oh they can do stuff, no doubt, but then again, the way I see it, the developed countries have a bigger share of the responsibility than the inhabitants of this small island that has been systematically and very heavily exploited for several centuries. Haitians can do stuff forthemselves, as they did in the past, but the developed word has too to repair the damage that caused to the island.

As Ape said:

Most of the developed countries had the advantage of being able to develop without the neighboring countries having much of an advantage.

Anyway, Yummy, what do you think that Haitians could do at this point?

[Neville]

Stop breeding like rats.

[Oso Mocoso]

Exactly. Most of the developed countries had the advantage of being able to develop without the neighboring countries having much of an advantage. Belgium grew rich from weaving fabric.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_colonial_empire

... and I'm sure that Belgium having a colonial empire which was vastly larger than Belgium itself probably helped a little bit too in the country's development, wouldn't you think?

Let's ask some Africans.

http://tintinology.poosk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/congo-hands.png


Anyway, Yummy, what do you think that Haitians could do at this point?

Good question. As I see it, Haiti really doesn't have a lot of hope. They've got few natural resources, an undereducated population, and a relentlessly corrupt government. Getting rid of the latter would be a good first step, but then what?

[Madrigal]

Why is that relevant? I have nothing to gain or lose by sounding like a "better" person on INTPc.
You may have nothing to gain but you're painful to read and that's as much as it matters to me.


"It makes me remember that this is a country that didn't have a chance when it began, a nation of slaves becoming the world's first black republic. You have to draw from this historical precedent and hope there will be a rebirth."

How the fuck does hoping that the country can be reborn correlate with this destruction being a step in that direction? All you have now is a raw battle for survival and the complete reliance on other countries to build them up. There will be more poverty, more crime, more dependence and subjugation to foreign powers who "lend" aid, there will be plagues now that it has become a massive graveyard. And it'll take ages to even get back to the point they were before, which anyone would have said was rock bottom until now. Suddenly this earthquake is a godsend to the people of Haiti to "get their shit together"? As if desperation and overwhelming poverty was ever a recipe for human progress? I suspect either God has his head up his ass, or you do. And I don't believe in God.

[ApeTheDog]

... and I'm sure that Belgium having a colonial empire which was vastly larger than Belgium itself probably helped a little bit too in the country's development, wouldn't you think?

Lots of things helped us. Personally I think it's the smurfs that made us rich.

edit: I had not seen the picture, and wasn't sure how serious to take this.

Few countries don't have a few skeletons in the closet. We have diplomatically "apologized" to them for all the things we've done wrong, and we got our karmic retribution during the world wars.

[notjeffgoldblum]

You may have nothing to gain but you're painful to read and that's as much as it matters to me.

I second this.

[ApeTheDog]

You lived in Haiti at one point, didn't you, Madrigal?

[Madrigal]

You can always put me on ignore and stop reading what I write.
I don't ignore anybody, I like to know when people contaminate the board with BS.


Also, that was a quote from a Haitian woman.

Taken right out of context, of course. She never said the earthquake was a good thing for Haiti, and she's still trying to find her family in the rubble FFS.


You lived in Haiti at one point, didn't you, Madrigal?

No, St. Vincent.

[LastRailway]

I need to do much much more research/thinking. Even if you think I'm an idiot I really appreciate you "talking" it out with me.

I don't think you're an idiot, which is why is was trying to see what you're on about (I had a suspicion we were on the same page, but couldn't tell as much cause you didn't explain much your previous comments). I don't claim to have done any special thinking about Haiti - as a matter of a fact I've never thought anything about Haiti, before hearing about the earthquake, and I suspect this is the case with most people on this thread.

I'm actually surprised as well as to why Madrigal read your comment like that.




*Repairing the damage (obviously with help)
*Removing corrupt officials
*Raising the literacy rate (52.9% )

I agree with all, but I will stick with my previously stated opinion, that, except for removing corrupt officials, the rest (education, healthcare, etc), is broken because the colonial regimes had it broken and, to me, whoever brakes something, has the responsibility to repair it.

That is what I was on about, with my first comment on this thread: Charity is a good make-feel-good way for the developed countries to brush off their responsibility about Haiti and about countless other impoverished countries. Active repairing the damage is in order, but without mixing the country's politics and without try to impose anything, the way the developed countries are used to do.

[Madrigal]

I'm actually surprised as well as to why Madrigal read your comment like that.

Maybe it's the jump start they need to get their shit together.
There's only so many ways you can read into a piece of insight like that.

[qualia]

That is what I was on about, with my first comment on this thread: Charity is a good make-feel-good way for the developed countries to brush off their responsibility about Haiti and about countless other impoverished countries. Active repairing the damage is in order, but without mixing the country's politics and without try to impose anything, the way the developed countries are used to do.I disagree, it very much depends on how it's applied. I mean, there's a charity that donates mosquito nets in Africa. Reproductive health education saves lives in more ways than one. Undeniably lives are saved. Education charities, especially ones that focus on girls, do an amazing amount of good, since it empowers some of the most vulnerable population and the population that tends to spend money in ways more stimulating to an economy. Microloans I am semi-dubious on, since I don't like the idea of profiting off of someone in a third world country, but they get paid back quickly and apparently do a very good job at starting locally owned business, and so jobs.

Means of creating potable water, reforestation, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, it all costs money, you can't do it for free, and we can't all drop everything and go plant trees in Haiti. There are amazing charities out there if you look for them.

[LastRailway]

There's only so many ways you can read into a piece of insight like that.

I keep reading it as:
"These people have gone a long way into taking their lives in their own hands, and it's a shame that they tolerated such a corrupt government. Maybe now that their situation is worse than ever, they'll try yet again to take the control of their own country and lives".



Means of creating potable water, reforestation, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, it all costs money, you can't do it for free, and we can't all drop everything and go plant trees in Haiti. There are amazing charities out there if you look for them.

Sure. But shouldn't this be the default preoccupation of, dunno, the United Nations, the governments of the US and Europe, etc, anyway? Instead of being based on volunteer work and individual offering? So much more things could be achieved that way, I believe.

For the record, if charity is the only solution at this moment, then I'm all for it, but I still believe it should not be the only solution.

[Yummy]

I keep reading it as:
"These people have gone a long way into taking their lives in their own hands, and it's a shame that they tolerated such a corrupt government. Maybe now that their situation is worse than ever, they'll try yet again to take the control of their own country and lives".

That's what I meant. I realize now that I should have clarified this and that my statement sounded brash. But when I say it to myself it's not malicious or a "haha".

[qualia]

You think I'm a moron, okay. But to start raving about how I'm disingenuous and coming up with all kinds of things that I didn't say? What is your goal? Or your motive if you will? I already explained to you what I meant, but you keep telling me that's not what I meant.Madrigal has probably seen more poverty than any of us would care to, and so is very upset by ignorance on the causes and privileged, cosmic, "it'll all turn out OK" attitude while the hundred thousand dead in the street in Haiti are being pushed away with bulldozers so the rotting bodies don't start spreading disease. I imagine her goal would be to take a couple of books on poverty and colonialism and beat your forehead with them until you either assimilate the knowledge or die.

I will say I hope there'll be anything good to come from this at all too, but you might find that people get a little sensitive about human suffering, to put it lightly. It's pretty natural.

[INTPERSON]

The solution is simple:

export dangerous convicts to haiti
import haitians unless they have hiv/aids (they can go back to africa what will be renamed aidsland)
turn the old prisons into low income housing
????
PROFIT

[Madrigal]

Who made mention of her saying it was a good thing? She makes mention of drawing from things like this and hoping there will be a rebirth.
Drawing from it? Whoever's curious can google it right up, all she says is she hopes for the best. She never said it was a goddamn historical opportunity.


You think I'm a moron, okay. But to start raving about how I'm disingenuous and coming up with all kinds of things that I didn't say? What is your goal? Or your motive if you will? I already explained to you what I meant, but you keep telling me that's not what I meant.
I would be satisfied if you just admitted you said something very stupid, condescending and cruel at the same time, but short of that, not continuing to defend it would be good enough.


I imagine her goal would be to take a couple of books on poverty and colonialism and beat your forehead with them until you either assimilate the knowledge or die.
:lol:

[LastRailway]

The solution is simple:

export dangerous convicts to haiti
import haitians unless they have hiv/aids (they can go back to africa what will be renamed aidsland)
turn the old prisons into low income housing
????
PROFIT

I see you don't live up to your signature.

[INTPERSON]

I see you don't live up to your signature.

my sig is a metaphor

just because I present radical ideas.. jeez.. try thinking outside the box once in awhile will you?

nonetheless good argument LR :rolleyes2: /sarcasm

[qualia]

I will put this to you very gently: if you asked me which I'd rather go through, Katrina or this disaster, easily Katrina. If you asked me if I'd like to be poor in New Orleans after Katrina or Haiti before this earthquake, I'd say New Orleans without hesitation. Haiti is worse. Very very few Americans live in conditions as bad as the average Haitian did.

Saying there is a nation full of people with problems just as bad or far worse than yours does not diminish your experiences. However, your experience has absolutely nothing to do with the experience of being an average Haitian, especially not now. Everyone who isn't dead is injured and knows someone who has died, is dehydrated, and hasn't eaten a full meal for at least a couple days. Katrina was awful, but about a hundred times more people have died here and the initial conditions were worse.

I'm not trying to insult you by saying your life is probably downright decadent to the average Haitian, I'm just saying have some perspective on this, 'cause you're probably gonna offend people who have it.

[Lurker]

It makes sense to me and that's all that really matters. Sometimes people need wakeup calls. That country had (maybe even still has?) so much potential, but there was too much corruption and just bullshit going on.

Other posters have already covered my response to this. Serves me right for not keeping up with the thread, I guess.

But, still...WTF? How is inflicting massive devastation on a country that's already going under giving them a "wakeup call?" I mean, what are they going to think? "Oh shit, we've been losers for a long time, this quake really showed me the light..."

C'mon. That makes no sense.

Edit: Just glanced above. Katrina is an invalid comparison.

[Neville]

Other posters have already covered my response to this. Serves me right for not keeping up with the thread, I guess.

But, still...WTF? How is inflicting massive devastation on a country that's already going under giving them a "wakeup call?" I mean, what are they going to think? "Oh shit, we've been losers for a long time, this quake really showed me the light..."

C'mon. That makes no sense.

Edit: Just glanced above. Katrina is an invalid comparison.

Culling the herd.

[Lurker]

Culling the herd.

I know your intent is to be all hardcore and stuff, but actually, you have a point. Haiti was pretty fucking miserable before the quake hit. The best way to look at this is as a mass mercy killing. I have a lot of sympathy for the people there, and sometimes death is preferable to a life of suffering.

[Ferrus]

(I think, but I am not sure, that the mere fact that they are islands somewhere is an indicator that the zone is seismogenic)
Basics of it here: http://whatonearth.olehnielsen.dk/plates/caribbean.asp

From what I am able to gather, the Carribean plate used to move north but then seemingly changed direction to subduct towards the east as it is now. Can any geologist here enlighten us?

[INTPERSON]

the Katrina < the Tsunami in asia < the Earthquake

[Yummy]

----
Jesus.....I did not bring that up to say that my experience was any worst than theirs, I brought that up because of your comment about me being "privileged" and Madrigal experiencing more than any of us; as if to say I have nothing that I've gone through.



But, still...WTF? How is inflicting massive devastation on a country that's already going under giving them a "wakeup call?" I mean, what are they going to think? "Oh shit, we've been losers for a long time, this quake really showed me the light..."

C'mon. That makes no sense.

Edit: Just glanced above. Katrina is an invalid comparison.
It's not a fucking juxtaposition. I was just saying that I've experienced quite a bit of things myself and I took that one as a wake up call. LR pretty much summed up what I meant, I'm not going to keep going on. Mark me as a moron and someone who doesn't make sense; I don't care. It's the distortion of what I wrote that is bothering me.

[V Profane]

Just donated via RDFRS (http://givingaid.richarddawkins.net/).

[Madrigal]

I was just saying that I've experienced quite a bit of things myself and I took that one as a wake up call.

I don't think that qualia was talking about isolated experiences and personal tragedy, but world views and how they are shaped.

That said, whatever you've been through doesn't make it any smarter for you to suggest Haiti may just have "needed" this "wake up call". It didn't need it, and it's not a fucking wake up call to anyone previously suffering in Haiti. They already knew hardship, having your country destroyed to rubble isn't going to illuminate anyone. No matter how poor and corruption-ridden their society was, its people are not cockroaches for you to stroke your chin at from afar in self-satisfaction while musing, "Hmmm, yes, this catastrophe may be... exactly what they needed." That really makes me wonder: Who the fuck do you think you are?

Rhetorical question, because I really don't care.

I'm not going to indulge your self-justification any longer by explaining things that are clear to both of us by now.

[Yummy]

Dramatics galore
Justification? It was me correcting your exaggeration. Your comments about me "stroking my chin" and thinking of the people as "cockroaches" are disgusting. I may not be the most in love with humanity, but telling lies about me being glad that shit happened? As well as the one where you told me to stand in a demolition site (online death wishes are always so humorous).

I guess it's just way too hard to just ignore my opinion and move on with your lives. The majority of people on this forum don't take me seriously, and it's sad to see how this shit has been dragged on. If someone said "niggers are dumb", I wouldn't tell that person they were a moron. I would ask why they believe that is true and provide them with information that they could think about. If they still thought "niggers were dumb", I would move on. I don't get this lynch mob mentality and never will.

[Madrigal]

(online death wishes are always so humorous).
Why do you think this conversation happened. You seemed to be nodding in approval of 100,000 people dying under heaps of debris.


If someone said "niggers are dumb", I wouldn't tell that person they were a moron.
I would, because they are.

Done talking to you.

[Yummy]

Why do you think this conversation happened. You seemed to be nodding in approval of 100,000 people dying under heaps of debris.
That's absurd and when I told you I was not, you continued to rage on. If it hadn't of happen I would still want rebirth for Haiti. But it did and the one time I want to be optimistic about something, you want to smother the optimism.

[YHWH]

Not that I agree with Madrigal because I never do but optimism is irrational, things can only go for the worse, time does destroy everything.
I'm sick of optimists.

[Madrigal]

Not that I agree with Madrigal because I never do

Well, now I'm offended.

[YHWH]

Well, now I'm offended.

I disagree.

[Karl]

I agree with Madrigal in that this will not empower anyone in Haiti. In order to do political work, people have to be able to live. Without being very familiar with Haiti, I would guess that Haitian politics is now going to be less advanced than it was a few months ago, because the question has gone from "How can I make sure I get enough to eat for the next few weeks or months?" to "Where is my next meal going to come from, where can I get a cup of water, how can I take care of my medical needs and the medical needs of my family, and where can I sleep tonight that's even remotely safe?" All these things were an issue to a large extent before, but the current situation is almost not comparable anymore. A haitian communist or nationalist movement's first perogative should be looking to answers for these things and cooperating with whatever available people and resources there are to achieve it. Once people can live, maybe they can start to talk about politial, social, and economic empowerment, but this is both a regression and a tragedy.

[Limey]

Just donated via RDFRS (http://givingaid.richarddawkins.net/).

This, and moping about your hair, keep it together man!

Keep your pecker up, stiff upper lip and all that.

Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag and smile, smile, smile

what's the use in worrying? it never was worthwhile, so!

pack up your troubles in your old kit bag and smile, smile, smile.

[V Profane]

This, and moping about your hair, keep it together man!

You forgot BAWWWWing about not winning awards for my sense of humour.

While we're being inappropriate, it's a good job Vice City (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/jan/02/newmedia.games) isn't current.

[Limey]

You forgot BAWWWWing about not winning awards for my sense of humour.

While we're being inappropriate, it's a good job Vice City (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/jan/02/newmedia.games) isn't current.

Isn't Rockstar games, Scottish? you're right next door to them (historically, what kind of Brits would want to do that?) - so close to the picts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts) and gaels!
flame haired savages!

[Hustler]

Justification? It was me correcting your exaggeration. Your comments about me "stroking my chin" and thinking of the people as "cockroaches" are disgusting. I may not be the most in love with humanity, but telling lies about me being glad that shit happened? As well as the one where you told me to stand in a demolition site (online death wishes are always so humorous).

I guess it's just way too hard to just ignore my opinion and move on with your lives. The majority of people on this forum don't take me seriously, and it's sad to see how this shit has been dragged on. If someone said "niggers are dumb", I wouldn't tell that person they were a moron. I would ask why they believe that is true and provide them with information that they could think about. If they still thought "niggers were dumb", I would move on. I don't get this lynch mob mentality and never will.

http://www.daemonstv.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/nup_110722_1050.thumbnail.jpg

[stuck]

Jesus christ, Madrigal. You're reading a whole lot into a pretty innocuous statement.

[Phreon]

Most
disappointing
thread
ever.

Phreon

[Madrigal]

Jesus christ, Madrigal. You're reading a whole lot into a pretty innocuous statement.
Maybe it came from a place of political humility, awareness and compassion. Me and most of the planet are just tone-deaf.

[stuck]

Maybe it came from a place of political humility, awareness and compassion. Me and most of the planet are just tone-deaf.

Whatever. Maybe not a total straw man, but at least a wicker man- the one starring Nicholas Cage, at that. You've done better.

[Madrigal]

You've done better.

I thought the same about you.

[stuck]

I thought the same about you.

Recently? As in during this thread?

My point is that not all ignorance is related to malice.

Maybe some people don't know about the US relationship the Haiti, how we've continually crushed any chance they've had for democracy for the last 50 years.

[Madrigal]

Recently? As in during this thread?
No. It started a while ago.


Just kidding. :grin:


My point is that not all ignorance is related to malice.

Maybe some people don't know about the US relationship the Haiti, how we've continually crushed any chance they've had for democracy for the last 50 years.
I'm sure you can see the irony in those same people considering this needed as a "wake up call" for Haitians.

I'm really tired of this topic.

[stuck]

No. It started a while ago.


Just kidding. :grin:


I'm sure you can see the irony in those same people considering this needed as a "wake up call" for Haitians.

I'm really tired of this topic.

:smooch:

Haiti's always one of the best examples of US foreign policy. Good! Point out the irony.

[Chaselation]

This country was an unnoticed spec until this happened. There was unlikely to be any change there except perhaps further slipping due to population growth and stretching of non existent resources. This is their best shot at some real change. The world is watching this small country right now. It might be a good time to bring up why they got to where they are. Contrasted against the Dominican Republic which is essentially a clone in a much better position.

Sad to say but this is an opportunity for them if it can go beyond just a charity mission. The US could be pressured into helping on a deeper level if it was known how much they have fucked with the place. The only real offering they have is tourism, sun and sand etc..much of which would have to be built (on the north coast). The clone to the east has a GDP five times higher, not great but better.

That or a much richer country just adopts them. (said only slightly in jest)

[Yummy]

This country was an unnoticed spec until this happened. There was unlikely to be any change there except perhaps further slipping due to population growth and stretching of non existent resources. This is their best shot at some real change. The world is watching this small country right now. It might be a good time to bring up why they got to where they are. Contrasted against the Dominican Republic which is essentially a clone in a much better position.

Sad to say but this is an opportunity for them if it can go beyond just a charity mission. The US could be pressured into helping on a deeper level if it was known how much they have fucked with the place. The only real offering they have is tourism, sun and sand etc..much of which would have to be built (on the north coast). The clone to the east has a GDP five times higher, not great but better.

That or a much richer country just adopts them. (said only slightly in jest)
You definitely said it a lot better than I did http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq173/Dark_Angel_87/th06.jpg lol


My point is that not all ignorance is related to malice.

Maybe some people don't know about the US relationship the Haiti, how we've continually crushed any chance they've had for democracy for the last 50 years.
There was no malice, which is why the malicious response was perplexing. Anyway I didn't know it was to that extent, but I've got a lot of time to learn.

[Madrigal]

This country was an unnoticed spec until this happened. There was unlikely to be any change there except perhaps further slipping due to population growth and stretching of non existent resources. This is their best shot at some real change. The world is watching this small country right now. It might be a good time to bring up why they got to where they are. Contrasted against the Dominican Republic which is essentially a clone in a much better position.

Sad to say but this is an opportunity for them if it can go beyond just a charity mission. The US could be pressured into helping on a deeper level if it was known how much they have fucked with the place. The only real offering they have is tourism, sun and sand etc..much of which would have to be built (on the north coast). The clone to the east has a GDP five times higher, not great but better.

That or a much richer country just adopts them. (said only slightly in jest)

I think the US has already helped enough by forcing IMF policies onto the country which multiplied its debt by 40, turning it into a giant sweatshop working on semi-slavery, and condoning the stealing of lands. Add its military intervention and support for death squads, and you have a country that in this day and age is reminiscent of classic US policies in Central America during the Cold War.

They are even using the same channels such as the infamous National Endowment for Democracy which has been pumping millions into the country to structure its policies in favor of US interests. The occupation of 2004 was a US-led coup to thwart a democratic movement in the country, disguised as a humanitarian mission, and alleged "freedom fighters" are funded directly by the NED to kill off democratic opposition.

But Haiti is not stuck in the past as much as US policy in Central and South America hasn't changed substantially. Only its pretexts have changed. The Cold War provided a framework and ideological justification for sabotaging governments who so much as adopted lukewarm protectionist policies - be they right or left. They had an excuse to support the toppling of governments and impose their agro-export model and open markets, all of this under the banner of democracy and progress. Right now, it is harder to justify and you need a lot of misinformation to sustain US involvement. The NED was behind the attempted coup against Chavez in 2002, and it continues to fund violent opposition groups in a number of countries that don't toe the line on the continent, such as with the white opposition in Bolivia.

Here is the wake up call - we have recently had new US bases installed in Colombia (7 in total now) and the reactivation of the USA's 4th Fleet since last year, a fleet started under the cold war which has been sending a large number of ships to Aruba and Curacao. The picture is clear. Venezuela is being targetted for a puppet regime in the not-so-distant-future. Remember the civic-military coup in Honduras (whose fraudulent "democratic transition" was condoned by Obama) and think about what that means for the continent. I have been hearing opposition calls for the same type of coup in Paraguay. That's a trend forming right there. The right is rearing its head, aggitating this idea in a number of countries including Argentina. I am concerned, because the race against time has begun. Something big is likely to happen in the next 10 to 15 years, and the US will have a lot to do with it, in the worst way possible. I feel like it won't be long before we witness the first great challenge of our generation.

Haiti isn't going to get a helping hand to build a real democracy, the fact that the world is watching doesn't mean anything. The world has condoned and supported US-led interference there for a long time. Haiti is now weaker and more subjugated than it ever was.

[I'mDying]

People die of natural disasters. It is NATURAL. We can't save everyone from everything and we shouldn't. the population is far too high on this planet anyways. Thats not to say it doesn't sadden me that people died but at the same time because I don't see human death as a terrible thing because we suck.

[I'mDying]

I think the US has already helped enough by forcing IMF policies onto the country which multiplied its debt by 40, turning it into a giant sweatshop working on semi-slavery, and condoning the stealing of lands. Add its military intervention and support for death squads, and you have a country that in this day and age is reminiscent of classic US policies in Central America during the Cold War.

They are even using the same channels such as the infamous National Endowment for Democracy which has been pumping millions into the country to structure its policies in favor of US interests. The occupation of 2004 was a US-led coup to thwart a democratic movement in the country, disguised as a humanitarian mission, and alleged "freedom fighters" are funded directly by the NED to kill off democratic opposition.

But Haiti is not stuck in the past as much as US policy in Central and South America hasn't changed substantially. Only its pretexts have changed. The Cold War provided a framework and ideological justification for sabotaging governments who so much as adopted lukewarm protectionist policies - be they right or left. They had an excuse to support the toppling of governments and impose their agro-export model and open markets, all of this under the banner of democracy and progress.

Right now, it is harder to justify and you need a lot of misinformation to sustain US involvement. The NED was behind the attempted coup against Chavez in 2002, and it continues to fund violent opposition groups in a number of countries that don't toe the line on the continent, such as with the white opposition in Bolivia.

Here is the wake up call - we have recently had new US bases installed in Colombia (7 in total now) and the reactivation of the USA's 4th Fleet since last year, a fleet started under the cold war which has been sending a large number of ships to Aruba and Curacao. The picture is clear. Venezuela is being targetted for a puppet regime in the not-so-distant-future. Remember the civic-military coup in Honduras (whose fraudulent "democratic transition" was condoned by Obama) and think about what that means for the continent. I have been hearing opposition calls for the same type of coup in Paraguay. That's a trend forming right there. The right is rearing its head, aggitating this idea in a number of countries including Argentina. I am concerned, because the race against time has begun. Something big is likely to happen in the next 10 to 15 years, and the US will have a lot to do with it, in the worst way possible. I feel like it won't be long before we witness the first great challenge of our generation.

Haiti isn't going to get a helping hand to build a real democracy, the fact that the world is watching doesn't mean anything. The world has condoned and supported US-led interference there for a long time. Haiti is now weaker and more subjugated than it ever was.

Who says Haiti needs or wants democracy. If it is anything like north american democracy I'd rather have tyranny cause at least then I know what I have and don't have to constantly question whether things have changed with a newer blacker president.

[Madrigal]

People die of natural disasters. It is NATURAL.
Perhaps, but if Haiti weren't so poor, the devastation wouldn't have been as vast. Haiti is poor because of foreign involvement. It's a simple equation. Nobody's saying earthquakes don't kill people, btw.


Who says Haiti needs or wants democracy.
Fucking US-backed death squads say it wants democracy. Have you read anything I wrote?

PS: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/

[Karl]

Perhaps, but if Haiti weren't so poor, the devastation wouldn't have been as vast. Haiti is poor because of foreign involvement. It's a simple equation. Nobody's saying earthquakes don't kill people, btw.


Yeah, think of what it's been like when a comparable earth quake happened in a place like the United States or Japan. Or even a country like Iran that, whatever its faults, consistently opposes foreign intervention. I think the US is as much at fault as they would be if the deaths were the result of Napalm, since the country is DIRECTLY responsible for the situation. Haiti is pretty much a ghetto in and of itself.

[Madrigal]

Yeah, think of what it's been like when a comparable earth quake happened in a place like the United States or Japan. Or even a country like Iran that, whatever its faults, consistently opposes foreign intervention. I think the US is as much at fault as they would be if the deaths were the result of Napalm, since the country is DIRECTLY responsible for the situation. Haiti is pretty much a ghetto in and of itself.

After bleeding the country for such a long time, leading it to the infrastructure crisis it was in, US aid right now can hardly be regarded as a favor.

[I'mDying]

Perhaps? Can you imagive a similar earthquake in california? or tokyo? You don't have to be poor to suffer terribly from from natural disasters. They will suffer because of this for some time.
All the relief in the world couldn't fix that. Even the wealthiest businesses... i mean countries in the world aren't able to mitigate natural disasters in their own areas.
You can blame poor government or american aggression all you want Madrigal. People are sheep they need to be lead and anyone who wants to lead is probably not holding the flocks best intentions close to his heart.
If north american ran out of oil tomorow all the infrastructure, and wealth in the world wouldn't save us. Nor would the rest of the world if they still had some oil.
There is a chance that the people will use this tragedy to realize that things are not right and rise up and create positive change. It's a small chance but its a chance they didn't really have before the earthquake.

[YHWH]

There is a chance that the people will use this tragedy to realize that things are not right and rise up and create positive change. It's a small chance but its a chance they didn't really have before the earthquake.

Baseless optimistic speculation. There is actually absolutely no chance of that happening.

[Madrigal]

Perhaps? Can you imagive a similar earthquake in california?
I don't have to imagine one. The 1989 earthquake in California was the same magnitude on the Richter scale (7). Only 63 people died. Isn't that interesting?


You can blame poor government or american aggression all you want Madrigal.
I will blame the US, thanks. We're ingrates like that.


People are sheep they need to be lead
Please speak for yourself.


I'd rather have tyranny cause at least then I know what I have and don't have to constantly question whether things have changed with a newer blacker president.
Well then get down on all fours and start baahing. You'd get the same point across and at least I would be entertained.

[Neville]

I am ready to embrace our new earthquake creating weapons. The world will now kiss our feet and with our glorious power the American Empire will flourish with unknown riches.

[Karl]

After bleeding the country for such a long time, leading it to the infrastructure crisis it was in, US aid right now can hardly be regarded as a favor.

US aid to poorer countries in general is basically the equivalent of stealing a hundred dollars, giving a dollar back, and then proceeding to feel charitable. It's much better than not giving anything back, but it certainly doesn't absolve the US. Economic and infrastructural aid is only given by the US for political reasons, as in South Korea or Colombia, which you can notice by the accompanying military "aid." I guess just recognizing that poorer countries even deserve this kind of aid is a step forward for many people in the United States.

The only thing that can "save" Haiti would be a broader South American and world anti imperialist movement that can defend Haiti as an ally. There is a big trend towards this kind of movement, but it's obviously not sufficiently developed to the point of being capable of defending South America. When it does, Haiti can join as an ally and start moving forward, but it certainly can't change the world order on its own. At this point any democratic initiatives are likely to be crushed. People can be organized in ghettos, but I'm not sure what people here want them to be doing there on their own.

[I'mDying]

I don't have to imagine one. The 1989 earthquake in California was the same magnitude on the Richter scale (7). Only 63 people died. Isn't that interesting?


I will blame the US, thanks. We're ingrates like that.


Please speak for yourself.


Well then get down on all fours and start baahing. You'd get the same point across and at least I would be entertained.

Oh your one of these. I wasn't aware. You are blaming the US? The US is just another ghetto but a little nicer and the people are not aware it is a ghetto. The US doesn't exist like you imagine it.
To quote a very good movie
Arthur Jensen: [calmly] Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those *are* the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state, Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that . . . perfect world . . . in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.

You hate the US so much but you don't realize that Americans are no different from Haitians. In fact there are complacent Haitians in America. If you want to do something good for the world instead of sitting here talking about how evil the US is and how it causes so much strife in the world then get off your keyboard and go kill a rockefeller.
But you won't. Cause I won't and few people hate our capitalist masters more than I do.

[I'mDying]

US aid to poorer countries in general is basically the equivalent of stealing a hundred dollars, giving a dollar back, and then proceeding to feel charitable. It's much better than not giving anything back, but it certainly doesn't absolve the US. Economic and infrastructural aid is only given by the US for political reasons, as in South Korea or Colombia, which you can notice by the accompanying military "aid." I guess just recognizing that poorer countries even deserve this kind of aid is a step forward for many people in the United States.

I think the only thing that can "save" Haiti would be a broader South American and world anti imperialist movement that can defend Haiti as an ally. There is a big trend towards this kind of movement, but it's obviously not sufficiently developed to the point of being capable of defending South America. When it does, Haiti can join as an ally and start moving forward, but it certainly can't change the world order on its own. At this point any democratic initiatives are likely to be crushed. People can be organized in ghettos, but I'm not sure what people here want them to be doing there on their own.

Just wait 20 years. Capitalistic US will kill itself. Hard to rule a world through business when the oil runs out.

[LastRailway]

You hate the US so much but you don't realize that Americans are no different from Haitians. In fact there are complacent Haitians in America.

To my knowledge at least, Americans generally have food to eat and shelter to live under and clothes to get dressed. I don't know the percentage of people living below poverty level in America, but I read recently that 80% of the population of Haiti would live on $2/day.

And the US is largely, if not solely, responsible for the poverty in Haiti.

EDIT:
12.5% of Americans live in poverty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States). No comparison, at all.

[Karl]

Just wait 20 years. Capitalistic US will kill itself. Hard to rule a world through business when the oil runs out.

I think before you make statements like this, you should check your numbers and the like for accuracy. For instance, if you read over your post and it says "Can you imagine a similar earthquake?", then you should think about it. "What would be a similar earthquake even be? Well, I know the Richter scale can measure earthquakes, so I will check that. It's a 7? Wow, there HAVE been comparable earthquakes in the United States, and almost no one died compared to Haiti. I better rethink my post."

Try that for the post I quoted, too.

[Madrigal]

US aid to poorer countries in general is basically the equivalent of stealing a hundred dollars, giving a dollar back, and then proceeding to feel charitable.
xD


You hate the US so much but you don't realize that Americans are no different from Haitians.
I don't hate Americans, I love them. And I think they're really funny. :wub:


If you want to do something good for the world instead of sitting here talking about how evil the US is and how it causes so much strife in the world then get off your keyboard and go kill a rockefeller.
No thanks, I'm not a terrorist. I think the way to go is organized resistence.

The rest of your post was ridiculous, but it's already been pointed out.

[I'mDying]

80&#37; of 9.7 million is 7.76 million. 12.5 % of 304,059,724 is 38,007,465. I would argue that this number needs to be higher because there are alot of people struggling to stay above the poverty line and its not much better for them.
The death toll in Haiti may hit 200,000. Heart disease accounts for over one million deaths each year; in 160,000 of those deaths the individuals were 35 to 64 years old.
I would argue that this alarming rate is due to poor nutrition and ignorance.
So I think its fair and safe to compare the two.

[Madrigal]

:rofl:

[I'mDying]

Just saying Haiti isn`t the only country to be screwed by US run capitalism. Americans suffer for it every day.

[LastRailway]

80&#37; of 9.7 million is 7.76 million. 12.5 % of 304,059,724 is 38,007,465. I would argue that this number needs to be higher because there are alot of people struggling to stay above the poverty line and its not much better for them.

The reason we compare percentages instead of numbers is, precisely, to draw an analogy and make the two groups comparable.



The death toll in Haiti may hit 200,000. Heart disease accounts for over one million deaths each year; in 160,000 of those deaths the individuals were 35 to 64 years old.
I would argue that this alarming rate is due to poor nutrition and ignorance.

Heart disease?! Yeah, it's a well known fact that being human is a mortal disease that will certainly lead to your death sooner or earlier and heart failure is the most common reason of heart disease.


So I think its fair and safe to compare the two.
LOL, whatever.

[Madrigal]

Just saying Haiti isn`t the only country to be screwed by US run capitalism. Americans suffer for it every day.

I don't think you were just saying that. I do think, however, that you were just sayin'.

[starla]

Why are people bothering to argue with an INFJ?

[LastRailway]

Why are people bothering to argue with an INFJ?

Ugh, I hadn't noticed.

Why don't non-INTPs have a special username colour?

[Madrigal]

Ugh, I hadn't noticed.

Why don't non-INTPs have a special username colour?

Invisible color! And font too.

[LastRailway]

Invisible color! And font too.

And only 160 characters/post.

[TheNilesEdge]

And only 160 characters/post.

That would work best with most female members regardless of type. It'd be nice to read a post by one that wasn't saturated with emotional bias.

Anyways, it's gonna be difficult for the average Haitian woman to breastfeed her eight babies on the roof of her cardboard condo now, but I'm sure you could all contribute somehow for the price of a cup of coffee. Order a life-changing opinion t-shirt or something.

[Madrigal]

That would work best with most female members regardless of type. It'd be nice to read a post by one that wasn't saturated with emotional bias.


That could be resolved. Maybe you should be appointed to filter out the women who don't make conceptual arguments or contribute any analysis to threads.

[LastRailway]

That would work best with most female members regardless of type. It'd be nice to read a post by one that wasn't saturated with emotional bias.

Yeah, I agree with you. Or at least I would, were this a forum for men regardless of type, instead of a forum for INTPs regardless of sex that it currently is.

*eyes TheNilesEdge's type*

[Karl]

Just saying Haiti isn`t the only country to be screwed by US run capitalism. Americans suffer for it every day.


The poverty line is a little under 11,000 dollars a year in the US. This happens to place them in the world's richest 15&#37;. In fact, most people below the "poverty" line are still in the world's richest 15%, and they can get charity and government aid. Their "poor" houses are quite nice compared to what most of the world lives in, and the only people who can't get food are those with psychological, nuerological, or drug problems. These kinds of problems exist all over the world, so while they deserve help, it's not unique to the US. And, about 85% of the people in the US are ABOVE the poverty line, so they're even better off compared to the people in somewhere like Haiti.

Or, let me put it another way...

Here's overtown, miami, which is generally recognized as a Black ghetto:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/general-u-s/12982d1200203223-cities-worst-slums-13-overtown_lede.highlight.prod_affiliate.56.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/2qmkuoh.jpg


Here's liberty city, also in the miami area:
http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/houseoflies/part1/piles.jpg

Here's a shantytown in Port-au-Prince:
http://www.wehaitians.com/mixed_photo_5.jpg

Here's a market area from the same place:
http://modx.volunteeringoptions.org/assets/galleries/3/haiti_market_port_au_prince.JPG

Get it?

[I'mDying]

Whats wrong with the last picture? Looks pretty to me. Are any of the average Haitians less happy than the average American? You don't have to have a tv to live well. My sister went to Haiti for a doctors without borders program a year ago. She said it was beautiful and the people kind and less depressed than she thought they would be. The kids all played with smiles on their faces and the mothers hung out together and talked while they worked. I'm not saying they have a Starbucks on every corner but they have friends, family, food enough to survive and a rich culture.
I'd choose post earthquake Haiti over post 911 America anyday.

[Ferrus]

Whats wrong with the last picture? Looks pretty to me.

=))

This thread must be dangling some powerful troll bait.

[notjeffgoldblum]

I'd choose post earthquake Haiti over post 911 America anyday.

Somehow, I doubt that.


=))

This thread must be dangling some powerful troll bait.

FFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

[qualia]

Just to pull this away from the troll, do not contribute to Yele. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0114102wyclef1.html)

[I'mDying]

Somehow, I doubt that.



FFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

Then you don't know me well. As of september I'll be living on 5 dollars a day maybe a little more depending on if I hit up any museums. Living out of a tent and on my touring bike. Buying food from markets no fast food garbage. In other words I don't live in a glass house so allow me to throw stones. Sure I will be living in a canvace house but rocks usually bounce off canvas.


The reason we compare percentages instead of numbers is, precisely, to draw an analogy and make the two groups comparable.




Heart disease?! Yeah, it's a well known fact that being human is a mortal disease that will certainly lead to your death sooner or earlier and heart failure is the most common reason of heart disease.


LOL, whatever.

Percentages... So if say one percent of china is dying of malnutrition that is less important than say 40% of Haiti? Its just easier to hide those that are dying when they are being stepped on by those who aren't.
The huge rate of heart disease in the united states is not simply a mortal disease. Its not like there aren't man made reasons that mostly poor uneducated or middle class americans (if that class even exists anymore) are dying of heart disease. 160000 a year under the age of 45. Thats young.
But no lets freak out whenever a poor country gets hit with a natural disaster which we didn't help by being douche bags. Instead of focusing on the problems within north american society. Maybe gun violence, poor education, sickness without health insurance, racism and classism. Nope lets all focus on whichever country got hit this year by an earthquake and in a week when we've forgotten about it we will go back to warring against more impoverished nations in huts.

[nonperson]

gun violence,

Um. Gun violence? In the Caribbean you are more likely to be hacked to death with a machete. Don't panic! You will be just as dead, it will just take a bit longer.

[I'mDying]

Um. Gun violence? In the Caribbean you are more likely to be hacked to death with a machete. Don't panic! You will be just as dead, it will just take a bit longer.

Not saying there isnt crime in other countries but I am saying a country should deal with its own first. Not likely that the Haitians with machetee are going to harm as many Americans as gun violence by americans to americans will.

[nonperson]

Not saying there isnt crime in other countries but I am saying a country should deal with its own first. Not likely that the Haitians with machetee are going to harm as many Americans as gun violence by americans to americans will.

I think you will find that stabbings, motor vehicle accidents, and Big Macs kill substantially more Americans than guns.

About twice as many Haitians (11 per 100,000) are murdered per anum than US citizens (5 per 100,000.) I will make an educated guess and speculate that there are many, many more firearms in the US than in Haiti.

FYI there are approximately 500,000 deaths due to small arms a year.

[notjeffgoldblum]

Then you don't know me well. As of september I'll be living on 5 dollars a day maybe a little more depending on if I hit up any museums. Living out of a tent and on my touring bike. Buying food from markets no fast food garbage. In other words I don't live in a glass house so allow me to throw stones. Sure I will be living in a canvace house but rocks usually bounce off canvas.

I just noticed you were an INFJ. Good luck on your journey you crazy bastard.

[nonperson]

I just noticed you were an INFJ. Good luck on your journey you crazy bastard.

Life away from 4 walls (and a roof must remember the roof) and 3 square meals looks romantic but I think the novelty will soon wear off.

[I'mDying]

Thank you Mr. Goldblum.

[Ferrus]

On a different note... as unreligious as I am, there is something poignant about the ruined presidential palace in Haiti, in its display of the vanity of man.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/01/what_haitis_presidential_palac.html

[Limey]

Karl, your comparison with overtown and liberty city in Miami (both of which I have worked in, for SunTrust Bank) are flawed comparisons, since a large proportion of the populace in those US towns are Haitian. Unless, of course trying to point out a pattern of a common denominator in turning an area to shit was intentional.

I grew up in and around Handsworth, Birmingham, UK - an area that is predominantly Jamaican and Indian (my signature is a social commentary from a local to the riots that occurred there). Several groups of people in that area got a common base standard of living (welfare) start. Not all groups were even capable of self-regulation and organization ("gangs" notwithstanding).

[Karl]

Karl, your comparison with overtown and liberty city in Miami (both of which I have worked in, for SunTrust Bank) are flawed comparisons, since a large proportion of the populace in those US towns are Haitian. Unless, of course trying to point out a pattern of a common denominator in turning an area to shit was intentional.


I don't understand what you're getting at. Even if some of the people are from Haiti, it's not Haiti. It's Miami. Do you want me to give an example of poor Whites? Why? I guess you could start with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9wyOJ4di0g)documentary. Most of the poorer people in the US are not White, so if I want to show something demonstrative of the US it doesn't make sense to show Whites.

[Limey]

I don't understand what you're getting at. Even if some of the people are from Haiti, it's not Haiti. It's Miami. Do you want me to give an example of poor Whites? Why? I guess you could start with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9wyOJ4di0g)documentary. Most of the poorer people in the US are not White, so if I want to show something demonstrative of the US it doesn't make sense to show Whites.

I'd like to hear more about things that are "demonstrative of the US", because the entire thing would be a challenge to pin-down in an objective way, or it would be so politically correct, so as to offer little at all of quantifiable value in the real world.

I'm thinking clipart of flags, apple pie, warm fire, comfy slippers and nights in with late night talk show hosts. Myself, getting off the banana boat with just a few thousand dollars to my name - already subjective and therefore useless to anyone fundamentally different to me, whose experiences are like microscopic fractal veins in a leaf on a huge tree in just one of many massive woods.

Log Jam! - the Leyland Cypress can stay, the Birch and spruce can come in, but you firs, you have to fucking go back!

[stuck]

Just to pull this away from the troll, do not contribute to Yele. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0114102wyclef1.html)

This analysis (http://blog.charitynavigator.org/2010/01/wyclef-jeans-yele-haiti-foundation.html) is a little better. The experts say that they're just going to have to wait and see. Wyclef isn't the devil- yet.

[Karl]

I'd like to hear more about things that are "demonstrative of the US", because the entire thing would be a challenge to pin-down in an objective way, or it would be so politically correct, so as to offer little at all of quantifiable value in the real world.

I'm thinking clipart of flags, apple pie, warm fire, comfy slippers and nights in with late night talk show hosts. Myself, getting off the banana boat with just a few thousand dollars to my name - already subjective and therefore useless to anyone fundamentally different to me, whose experiences are like microscopic fractal veins in a leaf on a huge tree in just one of many massive woods.

Log Jam! - the Leyland Cypress can stay, the Birch and spruce can come in, but you firs, you have to fucking go back!

Am I supposed to respond to this? Honest question.

[Limey]

Am I supposed to respond to this? Honest question.

How much tastier is a banana compared to a guava?
How do I even know if banana tastes the same to you as it does to me?
Get out of your ivory tower, go and live in a communist state, or in abject poverty and then come back and make better analogies.

[Karl]

How much tastier is a banana compared to a guava?
How do I even know if banana tastes the same to you as it does to me?
Get out of your ivory tower, go and live in a communist state, or in abject poverty and then come back and make better analogies.

Oh.

In my experience people who have lived in abject poverty or "communist states" are not better at analogies than I am, so if I'm making bad analogies, there's probably another problem. I really am trying to figure out what you're objection is but I'm confused about it.

If I'm unable to understand you or you don't care enough to explain I'm still happy to call it a day, though?

Edit: I'm going to hazard a guess: are you saying that who's worse off than who is subjective?

[stuck]

I have concluded that I'mDying is a decivilizationist agent-provocateur, at best. At worst, he's a grumpy kid living in his aunt's attic.

The effects of US capitalism are far more deleterious on Haitian society than on US society, because they don't have the same labor laws. In the US we have some degree of choice. While it's not perfect democratic choice, it's far better than the lack of choice the Haitians are saddled with. We have been in a continuous process of destroying their civil society and reducing the citizens to wage slaves for a long time, and right up to the present day. The fact that you'd...

oh you guys have this covered, good.

[qualia]

This analysis (http://blog.charitynavigator.org/2010/01/wyclef-jeans-yele-haiti-foundation.html) is a little better. The experts say that they're just going to have to wait and see. Wyclef isn't the devil- yet.I'd still prefer to give to Doctors Without Borders before the jury comes in.

[Neville]

ITT: Armchair activism.

[qualia]

ITT: Armchair activism.Nope, pretty sure at least Madrigal and I are real live activists!

I'm not sure you understand how relief efforts work. You want as few people on the ground using resources as efficiently as possible. I mean, I could drop everything and fly to Haiti, but seeing as I have no training as a doctor, no coordination with USAID or the UN or affiliated existing support network, and am not a solder, the most efficient way for me to contribute is to donate. Because yes, it actually does help, despite your whiny bullshit.

[Madrigal]

=))

This thread must be dangling some powerful troll bait.

Yep.

Lost count by now.

[Neville]

Nope, pretty sure at least Madrigal and I are real live activists!

I'm not sure you understand how relief efforts work. You want as few people on the ground using resources as efficiently as possible. I mean, I could drop everything and fly to Haiti, but seeing as I have no training as a doctor, no coordination with USAID or the UN or affiliated existing support network, and am not a solder, the most efficient way for me to contribute is to donate. Because yes, it actually does help, despite your whiny bullshit.

Are you guys using recliners or going for the couch approach? I've been thinking about getting a large bean bag(oh ho ho ho), any thoughts? I mean, I know it doesn't convey the typical armchair image, but damn it is fantastically comfy.

[qualia]

Are you guys using recliners or going for the couch approach? I've been thinking about getting a large bean bag(oh ho ho ho), any thoughts? I mean, I know it doesn't convey the typical armchair image, but damn it is fantastically comfy.Hey, aren't you the guy who leaves absolutely everyone anonymous pissy rep comments?

What's it like being a Republican AND a useless pussy?

[Madrigal]

Are you guys using recliners or going for the couch approach? I've been thinking about getting a large bean bag(oh ho ho ho), any thoughts? I mean, I know it doesn't convey the typical armchair image, but damn it is fantastically comfy.

I assume it's more like we sometimes rest on Sundays.

[Hustler]

I'm not sure you understand how relief efforts work. You want as few people on the ground using resources as efficiently as possible. I mean, I could drop everything and fly to Haiti, but seeing as I have no training as a doctor, no coordination with USAID or the UN or affiliated existing support network, and am not a solder, the most efficient way for me to contribute is to donate. Because yes, it actually does help, despite your whiny bullshit.

OK, but first people should make a bunch of money at online poker so they have money to donate.

[qualia]

OK, but first people should make a bunch of money at online poker so they have money to donate.Yes, absolutely, money is the key to giving money.

[stuck]

Yes, absolutely, money is the key to giving money.

And what's the best way to make money? Sweatshops!

[Neville]

Hey, aren't you the guy who leaves absolutely everyone anonymous pissy rep comments?

What's it like being a Republican AND a useless pussy?

Pretty amazing. I get to sit back and watch as all the useless liberals scramble around like chickens without heads thinking they're changing something by latching on to a bunch of dead Haitians.


I assume it's more like we sometimes rest on Sundays.

So you are a good Catholic woman. When's the first one due?

[Madrigal]

So you are a good Catholic woman. When's the first one due?

I usually rest on Sundays because... the country does, and there's nothing to organize except in exceptional times.


So, now everyone gives a shit about Haiti?

Stop breeding like rats.

Culling the herd.

I am ready to embrace our new earthquake creating weapons. The world will now kiss our feet and with our glorious power the American Empire will flourish with unknown riches.

Pretty amazing. I get to sit back and watch as all the useless liberals and socialists scramble around like chickens without heads thinking they're changing something by latching on to a bunch of dead Haitians.
OMG it only took about 150 posts in the thread, but we're finally talking to you. You must be pissing your pants right now.

[Neville]

I usually rest on Sundays because... the country does, and there's nothing to organize except in exceptional times.






OMG it only took about 150 posts in the thread, but we're finally talking to you. You must be pissing your pants right now.

Surprisingly, I was potty trained quite early in life. First world plumbing is quite the achievement.

You forgot some posts. If we're going to be acknowledging my astute observations I'd like to be fully represented.

[Madrigal]

I'd like to be fully represented.

Don't hold your breath.

[Neville]

Don't hold your breath.

Oh, don't worry. I don't expect any amount of achievement from a communist.

[stuck]

Just gonna leave this here. (http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/)

[Yummy]

Just gonna leave this here. (http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/)
265$ million.....

:joft:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hMcQ3akHeBvtnGynUahV7XeCWomw
Senegal is offering them some land! Reminds me of the time this African country said African-Americans could come back and be given 'free' land. I wanted to take up their offer but then they mentioned taxes.

[Medici]

Just gonna leave this here. (http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/)

beat me to it

It's one thing for individuals to donate their own money, but it's another altogether when ...

[Madrigal]

Just gonna leave this here. (http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/517494/)


The Obama administration has pledged at least $100 million in aid and has already sent thousands of soldiers and relief workers. That's a decent start.


Now, in its attempts to help Haiti, the IMF is pursuing the same kinds of policies that made Haiti a geography of precariousness even before the quake. To great fanfare, the IMF announced a new $100 million loan to Haiti on Thursday.

USA is the largest shareholder in the IMF and therefore dominates decision-making along with Germany, Japan, France and GB.


Haiti already has $165 million in debt. Debt relief activists tell me that these loans came with conditions, including raising prices for electricity, refusing pay increases to all public employees except those making minimum wage and keeping inflation low. They say that the new loans would impose these same conditions. In other words, in the face of this latest tragedy, the IMF is still using crisis and debt as leverage to compel neoliberal reforms.
Yay, Obama.

[Roger Mexico]

265$ million.....

:joft:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hMcQ3akHeBvtnGynUahV7XeCWomw
Senegal is offering them some land! Reminds me of the time this African country said African-Americans could come back and be given 'free' land. I wanted to take up their offer but then they mentioned taxes.

Interesting fact (I recently taught 9th graders a Global Studies unit about Haiti):

Haiti's independence in 1804 was ransomed for 50 million francs from the French government, which threatened to invade (again) and reimpose slavery if the Haitians didn't pay.

Today, this amount would be worth around $20 billion.

Jean-Bertrand Aristide (the country's former president) was apparently attempting to recover this money through a lawsuit--under some international law I'm not familiar with--shortly before his 2004 ouster in a violent uprising, started by former secret-police officers (of the deposed Duvalier regime) armed with weapons that the U.S. army had previously supplied to the Dominican Republic.

[INTPERSON]

Interesting fact (I recently taught 9th graders a Global Studies unit about Haiti):

Haiti's independence in 1804 was ransomed for 50 million francs from the French government, which threatened to invade (again) and reimpose slavery if the Haitians didn't pay.

Today, this amount would be worth around $20 billion.

Jean-Bertrand Aristide (the country's former president) was apparently attempting to recover this money through a lawsuit--under some international law I'm not familiar with--shortly before his 2004 ouster in a violent uprising, started by former secret-police officers (of the deposed Duvalier regime) armed with weapons that the U.S. army had previously supplied to the Dominican Republic.

Yes I heard about that on canada am couple days ago some haitian activist has written to the ogvernor general of canada (she's haitian) and ask her for her support to try and get france to pay up. I think it's a good idea...

check it out...

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/back-home/#clip256487

france owes big time we shouldnt let them get away with this especially since, the world saved there asses in both ww's

[Neville]

So France shouldn't be compensated for its property?

[INTPERSON]

Nah.

[Neville]

Have any property I can liberate from you?

[INTPERSON]

If you parked your car in my driveway and you said "I'm going to france", but you stipulated I can't drive your car and you owned my driveway and my home and your car and sometimes you would come and harass me when you came to drive your citroen or whatever crappy french car you had. I would take your car and move it and I would say "your car is gone. bugger off back to france" wouldn't you?

[doob]

Interesting fact (I recently taught 9th graders a Global Studies unit about Haiti):

Haiti's independence in 1804 was ransomed for 50 million francs from the French government, which threatened to invade (again) and reimpose slavery if the Haitians didn't pay.

Today, this amount would be worth around $20 billion.

Jean-Bertrand Aristide (the country's former president) was apparently attempting to recover this money through a lawsuit--under some international law I'm not familiar with--shortly before his 2004 ouster in a violent uprising, started by former secret-police officers (of the deposed Duvalier regime) armed with weapons that the U.S. army had previously supplied to the Dominican Republic.





Yes I heard about that on canada am couple days ago some haitian activist has written to the ogvernor general of canada (she's haitian) and ask her for her support to try and get france to pay up. I think it's a good idea...

check it out...

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/back-home/#clip256487

france owes big time we shouldnt let them get away with this especially since, the world saved there asses in both ww's

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0720-31.htm

[MacGuffin]

So France shouldn't be compensated for its property?

Did France legitimately pay for its property in the first place?

[lowtech redneck]

I mean, there's a charity that donates mosquito nets in Africa.

Donating to a charity that SELLS mosquito nets (at subsidized but not just nominal prices) would get more results....isn't human psychology amazing?

[Lurker]

So France shouldn't be compensated for its property?


Have any property I can liberate from you?

New usertitle: The fuck Haiti! troll

[qualia]

Donating to a charity that SELLS mosquito nets (at subsidized but not just nominal prices) would get more results....isn't human psychology amazing? [citation needed]

[Ferrus]

USA is the largest shareholder in the IMF and therefore dominates decision-making along with Germany, Japan, France and GB.
Voting rights are based on the relative share of the world economy so I'd expect to see China and India take more power. China especially is gaining increasing power to force the West into relinquishing more power, and has made a good many noises to that extent, as it owns a considerable proportion of American debt. And China has taken a more favourable attitude to African countries - knowing that when resources get scant in the decades to come, having built up friendly relations with African leaders will be to their advantage.

[nonperson]

Voting rights are based on the relative share of the world economy so I'd expect to see China and India take more power. China especially is gaining increasing power to force the West into relinquishing more power, and has made a good many noises to that extent, as it owns a considerable proportion of American debt. And China has taken a more favourable attitude to African countries - knowing that when resources get scant in the decades to come, having built up friendly relations with African leaders will be to their advantage.

The recent economic crisis has proved money isn't real (if we didn't know this already!) so the debt China is a moot point. And as China is militarily at least two generations behind the US in military tech I don't think they can force a collection. This also means that China isn't able to protect the supply routes to those natural resources. Lastly I think when push comes to shove in our bleak future nicey nicey ROE will go out of the window.

Life as a realist can be bleak.......

[qualia]

China could totally zerg rush us.

[lowtech redneck]

[citation needed]

Most of them are lost somewhere amid my thousands of pages of old grad school material; if you are an active contributor to such charities or intend to work within the aid and development field, and still attend University, it will be worth the trouble to ask the appropriate professor for research references on this matter.

The only name reference I still remember is William Easterly, and here's a link to some of his research: http://www.nyu.edu/fas/institute/dri/Easterly/Research.html

On a side note, its fun to read about the ongoing intellectual feud between Easterly and Jeffrey Sachs. :popcorn:

Here's an article that (briefly) covers the mosquito net conundrum that is apparently well-known within the international aid community: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19374

[oxyjen]

How long do aftershocks last? Haiti got hit again, with a 6.1

Aruba and the Caymans have been experiencing more minor (4-5) quakes as well. Hopefully there aren't too many more to come.

[Neville]

Did France legitimately pay for its property in the first place?

The French Nationals who bought the slaves probably did buy them from a slave trader. So, yes, they legitimately payed for their property.

[qualia]

The French Nationals who bought the slaves probably did buy them from a slave trader. So, yes, they legitimately payed for their property.You're not worth a bottlecap.

[Neville]

You're not worth a bottlecap.

http://s3.tinypic.com/2ugyt88_th.jpg

[Anonymous]

The French Nationals who bought the slaves probably did buy them from a slave trader. So, yes, they legitimately payed for their property.
So you're pro-slavery? At one time, that would have made you a Democrat.

[qualia]

http://s3.tinypic.com/2ugyt88_th.jpgNot even fifty cent.

[Neville]

So you're pro-slavery? At one time, that would have made you a Democrat.

I'm pro compensation for property lost.


Not even fifty cent.

http://s3.tinypic.com/2ugyt88_th.jpg

[Hustler]

I'm pro compensation for property lost.
http://files.dropbox.com/u/28197/Gifs/fifty-wtf.gif

[Ferrus]

The recent economic crisis has proved money isn't real (if we didn't know this already!) so the debt China is a moot point. And as China is militarily at least two generations behind the US in military tech I don't think they can force a collection. This also means that China isn't able to protect the supply routes to those natural resources. Lastly I think when push comes to shove in our bleak future nicey nicey ROE will go out of the window.

Life as a realist can be bleak.......
Perhaps now, but nothing is static. The military may be the deciding factor in the short-term of power politics, but economics is always the most important element in the long-term. Whether the US can continue to afford its large and technologically advanced army and retain something like a semblance of social and political order is an unkown looking 50 years ahead. And also - they don't need to force the debt to bankrupt the US, they merely need to refuse to buy anymore T bills, and sell off the rest to cause serious issues.

Whichever way the wars of the future go, it scarcely bothers me, as I'll be sure to avoid any of them however I may. I don't have a moral issue killing but I do have an issue being killed for something as stupid and immaterial as a nation-state or country (or anything else for that matter). But if other idiots are willing to sacrifice themselves then I by all means heartily encourage them to reduce the numbers of meatbags on our overpopulated planet a bit.

[!diom]

LOL

[nonperson]

Perhaps now, but nothing is static. The military may be the deciding factor in the short-term of power politics, but economics is always the most important element in the long-term. Whether the US can continue to afford its large and technologically advanced army and retain something like a semblance of social and political order is an unkown looking 50 years ahead. And also - they don't need to force the debt to bankrupt the US, they merely need to refuse to buy anymore T bills, and sell off the rest to cause serious issues.

Whichever way the wars of the future go, it scarcely bothers me, as I'll be sure to avoid any of them however I may. I don't have a moral issue killing but I do have an issue being killed for something as stupid and immaterial as a nation-state or country (or anything else for that matter). But if other idiots are willing to sacrifice themselves then I by all means heartily encourage them to reduce the numbers of meatbags on our overpopulated planet a bit.

As I said money isn't real so becoming bankrupt isn't real either..........

Look at what is happening with regards to public order in Haiti and then imagine Haiti is the world.

I think social cohesiveness (and the loyalty of the armed forces) goes deeper than having a thousand dollars deposited into a bank account each month.

This crisis you are so keen on if it is to come will come in the next fifty years. I just don't see China catching up. And I think if it comes to force abroad to protect the US I think the mind set will to be use force at home.

I think I am turning into that historian in Star Trek TOS who remodelled that society on Nazi lines........

[Ferrus]

I think social cohesiveness (and the loyalty of the armed forces) goes deeper than having a thousand dollars deposited into a bank account each month.
Maybe. But that is what the Russians said in 1917. ;)

[nonperson]

Maybe. But that is what the Russians said in 1917. ;)

:yes: ;)

[somnium]

What parallels between the current condition of any Occidental society, and Russia in 1916 (or France in 1788)?

[Neville]

http://files.dropbox.com/u/28197/Gifs/fifty-wtf.gif


http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2008/06/JAYZGERVAIS.gif

[SensEye]

Haiti's independence in 1804 was ransomed for 50 million francs from the French government, which threatened to invade (again) and reimpose slavery if the Haitians didn't pay.Ideally, what the Haitians should have done at that time is told France f**K you and fought to the last man. They would have been either free (of debt and person) or wiped out.

Can you imagine how much compensation the original natives of the island would be clamoring for if they hadn't been completely eradicated? But it's not an issue.

[nonperson]

What parallels between the current condition of any Occidental society, and Russia in 1916 (or France in 1788)?

Young Ferrus and me communicating via PM at the time the post was made. I know what he is was getting at with the post.

Russia 1917 and France 1788 are examples of breakdown in the Clausewitz triumphant of state-people-army. In Russia the army and people were as one. And the same can be said of France during the revolution.

Currently the US is more united (in terms of state-people-army) than the left leaning, whining Democratic American that is over represented here on the forum would have you believe.

[qualia]

Currently the US is more united (in terms of state-people-army) than the left leaning, whining Democratic American that is over represented here on the forum would have you believe.I'm very sorry to disappoint, but the teabaggers are a vocal, but very decisive, minority.

Contrast the rallies with past ones. OK, so you get 40k people at the capital. That's how many people came to watch Obama speak in Austin. Obama won by ten points. Fifty one percent of Americans still approve of Obama, which is not terrible. Clinton, considered still a popular president overall, dipped below fifty a handful of times. Two million people partied in Chicago on election night. About one million marched in Chicago to protest the beginning of the Iraq War.

Last, while we have fewer political divides than most other countries, you calling more than half the country whiny little bitches TOTALLY shows you're singing kumbayah with the nation, huh?

In conclusion, teabaggers and Republicans can't count.

[nonperson]

I'm very sorry to disappoint, but the teabaggers are a vocal, but very decisive, minority.


I didn't mention the teabaggers. On a global basis the US is a lot more cohesive than a good number of states.

How do you survive in Texas? Or are you a part of the underground? :ph34r:;)

[somnium]

Young Ferrus and me communicating via PM at the time the post was made. I know what he is was getting at with the post.

Russia 1917 and France 1788 are examples of breakdown in the Clausewitz triumphant of state-people-army. In Russia the army and people were as one. And the same can be said of France during the revolution.

Currently the US is more united (in terms of state-people-army) than the left leaning, whining Democratic American that is over represented here on the forum would have you believe.

Thanks. I had never heard of Clausewitz; sounds interesting. But I did have in mind the breakdown that took place in (or rather in the lead-up to) the French and Russian revolutions.

I don't see that breakdown at present in any Occidental society -- except perhaps Iceland, where they are perhaps close to the degree of governmental dilapidation of the national economy that was seen prior to the Russian or French revolutions.

[Ferrus]

I don't see that breakdown at present in any Occidental society -- except perhaps Iceland, where they are perhaps close to the degree of governmental dilapidation of the national economy that was seen prior to the Russian or French revolutions.
I was more talking of the long term. To what degree a government can continue functioning with crippling economic collapse and debt. The French revolution was, after all, primarily caused by the crippling debt imposed on the French government by wars in the 18th century, and in particular their support of the American revolution.

[Ace_]

Haiti quake jokes:

"I dumped my Haitian girlfriend the other day, she was crushed."

"A Haitian walks into a bar, and it falls on him."

"Have you heard about the new Haitian boy band, New Blocks On The Kids."

[somnium]

I was more talking of the long term. To what degree a government can continue functioning with crippling economic collapse and debt. The French revolution was, after all, primarily caused by the crippling debt imposed on the French government by wars in the 18th century, and in particular their support of the American revolution.

Yeah I'm thinking we're more in the phase of building up big economic problems and failing to address them, which preceded the revolution itself (in the cases cited) by several decades (I believe - I'm no historian).

Hey, you know in the end the Sun will explode, anyway?

[Ferrus]

Yeah I'm thinking we're more in the phase of building up big economic problems and failing to address them, which preceded the revolution itself (in the cases cited) by several decades (I believe - I'm no historian).

Hey, you know in the end the Sun will explode, anyway?
Well, more like centuries of crisis yes, chiefly because of the structural crippling of the economy by internal taxes etc. However - almost all systems have weak points that can be exploited in time. The majority of people in the US are contented with their standard of living - but I could see this changing if this economic doldrums lasts for decades.

And yeah, well the sun's running out of hydrogen is a slightly smaller concern to me than the earth's depletion of oil.

[catherinemu]

Fortunately, they have a kindly doctor: Dr.Paul Farmer. He is my favorite character..:theclap:

[Ptah]

I have a hard time imagining how or why anybody really gives a shit about Haiti much less anything that's happened there, beyond certain sensible scenarios like effected family members, loved ones, etc. Or why, apart from saying just this, peope are so prone to blabber on about it at length. A quake hit over there... and so?

[somnium]

I have a hard time imagining how or why anybody really gives a shit about Haiti much less anything that's happened there, beyond certain sensible scenarios like effected family members, loved ones, etc. Or why, apart from saying just this, peope are so prone to blabber on about it at length. A quake hit over there... and so?

Something to do with this:



No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. (John Donne)

[hoodrich84]

you guys are mean, how could you be so cruel to third world countries