Delusions of Grandeur

[Sally]

So I had this idea in one of my numerous showers:

I'm going to start a new religion. It's essentially going to be militant agnosticism, couched in the dramatic tones of the Judeo-Christian Old Testament. Arrogance is Hubris. Who are you to imagine you can fathom the Will of God? Who are you to deny the Will of God in the manifestations of His Glory? Who are you to divine and divide the Will of God as though you can touch His Being with your frail, physical hands?

Etc etc bullshit bullshit. And I'm gonna wrangle some ENTJ as the firgurehead. Of course, he will be brainwashed into thinking it was all his idea.

I think it'll be fun!!! That or I've been reading way too much Dune lately....

[Ka.avik]

I think it'll be fun!!! That or I've been reading way too much Dune lately.... what do they call you on your homeworld, Ucil?

//have only seen the two movies -- '80's flick, and SciFi's original. Both good.

[Sally]

the first scifi series was one of the worst things i have ever seen in my life. not to say it wasn't enjoyable... XD but their children of dune was much better. and yes i did just watch it one go when they re-aired it the other night. and i just got up to the final (herbert-written) book in the series, which i am re-reading. but yeah i'm kind of obsessed at the moment. and i LOVE the 80s movie. dunno why so many people seem to hate it...

[jimkopelli]

Only read book one.

Starting a religion... everyone knows the best way to do that is to get abandoned on Mars, get raised by aliens who teach you really cool mind tricks and make you more peaceful than the Dalai Lama, then get "rescued" and come back to earth and discover that you get to inherit a whole bunch of money.

Then you can start your religion.
I know you read scifi, you just said so, so go read Stranger in a Strange Land, by Heinlein.

Scifi and philosophy, all in one neat little package.

[jimkopelli]

Now that I think of it... the religion in Stranger is kinda exactly the opposite of the one you're talking about...

[Sally]

Been there, done that, baby. And is that projection of scifi shame I sense? >:}

I liked it, and I've been thinking of it a lot lately, might even reread it, but I can't get that scene out of my head - the two chicks become identical to each other. My inner feminazi spazzed out at that one, and it's colored my opinon of the book as a whole ever since.

Have you ever seen the ... oh, what is it? Space Troopers? Movie? Fucking. Hilarious.

[jimkopelli]

Oh, good, so you do grok.

Why that paticular section?

Starship Troopers?
Haven't seen it, but I do own the book. I've been told I'd like it.

[Sally]

It was the notion that women have no individuality. That what a woman most wants is to be exactly like other women.

I was in a particularly knee-jerk hyperfeminist reactionary state at the time (I think, maybe... age 15?) so I might have misinterpreted. I'll have to read it again to be sure.

Coz, I mean, it's funny when Willem Defoe says it, but for something I'm actually grokking to trip my spaz-switch....

[jimkopelli]

Ah... I think I need to reread that section as well. Towards the end, right? Putting on a show for the reporter, can't remember his name... have to now that I know I can't remember the name...

If you were in hyperfeminist mode when you read it last... what were your perceptions of the situation between Jubal and the girls?

Also... what did you think of Revolt in 2100, since the original topic was creating a religion as a method of control...

[Sally]

Ahhhhhh I don't remember!!!!! It's been years, and I'm only coming up with a couple of details....

Jubal was their boss man, right? Maybe? Anyway, I thought that was hot. He didn't even have to remember who's on first. I'm sure I felt vaguely uncomfortable about the gender roles, but not enough to care, because... it didn't say anything about the girls' motivations (that I remember). There was the one chick who was like the ultra notary public, so it was evident that there was more to them that met the eye... And I was cool with that. Mostly it made me fantasize about being filthy rich and having my own brigade of loyal secretaries.

[jimkopelli]

Heh. Yeah... it was like some of them were over-qualified... or maybe not, since he obviously had hired (Alice, I think) memory girl around for that paticular ability, as insurance almost... not enough given to tell if he had hired because of relationship or relationship (with all the girls) had come around after hiring, simply through living with him and giving him crap about his writing... I'd like the secretaries, too, but it seems like it'd take a helluva lotta work to keep everyone happy.

Need sleep. Gonna reread Stranger this week, to help complement discussion. May start a seperate thread at some point.

[Sally]

100 pages into it..........

The problem is far more serious than I remember! It's like reading a 50s sitcom. And as the novel is rather philosophical, and all about sex and gender roles, and I disagree with the concept of such strict, biologically determined gender roles.... It does not bode well.

I'm reminded of why I like the Starship Troopers movie so much. They do more than flirt with the edge of satire - you see the movie involved with the characters but also removed from them and viewing their misconceptions with wry amusement. At the viewer's discretion, of course.

[jimkopelli]

I have to get it back from a person I loaned it to, on the condition that they read it... and they didn't get very far, so I have to raid their room to get it back. Gonna get started a bit late, but I'll get to it.

Yeah, the characters are a bit (good word, good word... stereotypical?)... but sometimes that helps put the focus on what's going on rather than the character.

[MasterMerk]

I tend to suffer from delusions of grandeur on a good day and just plain old martyrdom on a bad one. At one stage I was going to create my own political philosophy and become a leader of my own country, but I petered out after a few hours. The delusions never last long enough.

[s0978]

I tend to suffer from delusions of grandeur on a good day and just plain old martyrdom on a bad one. At one stage I was going to create my own political philosophy and become a leader of my own country, but I petered out after a few hours. The delusions never last long enough.

sounds so intp-ish of you, are you borderline or something?

I had my own religion in the 6th grade. All I really remember is that my friends would bow to me in the halls and they'd get in trouble for goofing off while walking in line. Remember walking in line? I think I made everyone cut it out when I got self-conscious about all the attention.

[MasterMerk]

sounds so intp-ish of you, are you borderline or something?

I had my own religion in the 6th grade. All I really remember is that my friends would bow to me in the halls and they'd get in trouble for goofing off while walking in line. Remember walking in line? I think I made everyone cut it out when I got self-conscious about all the attention.

I had a band of merry men in 3rd grade, and we all had designated roles. I was the 2nd hand guy coming up with all these cool ideas. I don't remember any of them.

And I don't know my type. I've been depressed/manic as fuck this past year.

[Chukamuk]

Pinky: What are we going to do tonight, Brain?
Brain: The same thing we do every night Pinky, try and take over the world.

You know I think religion was the only angle they didn't try.

[jimkopelli]

Kinda not a good idea on a children's (ha!) show... but there was an episode where they started a TV show, got a big hypnotized fanbase, then froze themselves to go to the future when the fanbase would be grown up, and have money/power/influence... but of course it backfired.

[Sally]

AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Ok. I did real good. Even though it caused me some mental distress (Why don't I like evangelicals? Why not? I like happiness, right? Shouldn't I be embracing some crazy Fe cult to facilitate that emotion?)

I even grew to accept the fact that the characters (characatures, I should say) would have been at home in a James Bond movie (which would have been more fun).

BUT THEN I got to pages 286 and 287.


Jill wasn't sure how far this went; she had explained homosexuality, after Mike had read about it and failed to grok [...] Jill suspected that Mike would grok a "wrongness" in the poor in-betweens anyhow.


But I was coping with wolves while you were still on Mars. Nine times out of ten, if a girl gets raped, it's her fault. So don't be hasty.

So between that and the ultra-cheesy heaven vision..... It's too pitiful for me to flip my wig or anything, but it makes it VERY DIFFICULT to take this sucker seriously.

I dig grokking, and Happiness... Those are some nice ideas. But Heinlein can choke on my feminazi cock and learn a thing or two about philosophy. Well... No. I'm not angry. More... upset. Disturbed the way I get disturbed when people say you gets AIDS from gay people. I don't hold them at fault, but it's upsetting. And I would pray for Heinlein's soul.

I think that he himself had a few more concepts to grok.

[jimkopelli]

I remember reading something written in a posthumous publication of Heinleins that had a defense of views in his books... they come from the characters, not necessarily from H himself... in fact, which character is that speaking? It would be out of character for that character to have any other viewpoint... it's like an author writing a book that has to do with race issues... kinda hard to do if they don't include any racist characters.

[Sally]

Yes I understand that, but I also credit my N enough to pick up on tone. And I would have to be way, way out of wack to be missing the entire tone of this novel.

It is Jill speaking, and she is conservative, but by this point in the novel, she's also more enlightened. She's more in tune with what Mike thinks and feels. I think, at most, she's slightly more simplistic and slightly more extreme, but the basics of what she feels are on-target.

I do plan on finishing it (again), but my impression is definitely that Heinlein was very, very in tune with the sexism of his times.

[jimkopelli]

Maybe so.

I'm getting my copy back tonight.

[Sally]

Good reading.

If you don't see it, good for you.

If you see it and you still love the book, better.

If I've ruined it for you forever, I'm sorry.

[jimkopelli]

It's Heinlein.
I don't think it's possible that you could ruin it for me.
Got it, but have't had time to get to reading it (for about the fifth time) yet. Had to stay up all night on a project. Sleep is more important at the moment... but it is still so far away... wah....

[Sally]

So I was driving home, listening to Queen's A Night at the Opera, and it occurred to me how much I really like Jubal. Jubal is ultra cool. I want to be just like him. Failing that, I'd work for him. I'd be like the frigid bitch secretary. It'd be cool.

What I can't stand is the tone of the entire novel. Heinlein writes like a dime novellist. His characters aren't very complex, his skill at integrating exposition is abyssmal, and... yeah. If he were writing dime novels, this would not be a problem at all. But, no, he's a philospher, and his views on gender Spaz. Me. Out. They flip the switch. And if I don't like the tone of a novel, I don't like the novel.

This is sometimes unfortunate (A Knight's Tale - not a novel, but I genuinely enjoyed the movie until it hit me what a douche Brian Helgeland is), and sometime not (Charlottle Bronte can just crawl away and die and take her self-righteous emo-ass whiny bitchery with her).

[kuranes]

The part I remember about Stranger was the person who ended up getting to know the astrology guru to some big shot executive's wife, so that the executive's "flappers" ( screeners ) could be avoided when calling on the phone. Its ironic that my job now involves evading these same screeners! K

[Sally]

So, after a breather, I went back and finished the book. My conclusion stands: Heinlein is sexist, and it's a problem because the book centers around this sexism.

I identify most closely with Jubal and his individualism. He's earned his scars; he doesn't want to lose them. And as hard as it is for him to become more Mike's man by accepting advances from Mike's women, imagine how hard it would be for him to become Mike's woman, soft and giving. But even that scenario is out of the question. As much as Heinlein rejects the dogma of society, some fundamental divisions stand: man, woman; straight, gay. I don't have a positive place in the Stranger universe. I am not a Jubalish man; I am a defective woman. To grok with fullness, I would have lose myself not just enough to accept (male), but enough to give (female). I would have to become ENFP.

And maybe the world would run more smoothly if filled with enlightened ENFPs. Who am I to say? But I don't have to enjoy reading about it.

And as for Heinlein's other points: tolerance, judgement, the follies of humankind - I didn't need Heinlein to figure those out.

And finally, perhaps most importantly, the man is a shoddy storyteller. Someone really should have given him a clue about how to integrate exposition without making it cheesily obvious what you're trying to do.

[MacGuffin]

I fucking HATED Stranger in a Strange Land. Soooooooo badly written...

It is The Da Vinci Code for my parents generation.

[Sally]

I've never read The Da Vinci Code, but I did read this absolutely HILARIOUS article by an English professor(?), dissecting the first page, and even if I would have been able to take it seriously (doubtful), there is no way I can even comtemplate it now without amusement.

[Sally]

The part I remember about Stranger was the person who ended up getting to know the astrology guru to some big shot executive's wife, so that the executive's "flappers" ( screeners ) could be avoided when calling on the phone. Its ironic that my job now involves evading these same screeners! K

Hint: have a bargaining chip.

As a secretary, one of my duties is to be a screener. If I think you're going to stop using our services, you get bumped up the boss's call-back list real quick.

[jimkopelli]

Ok, finished it yesterday.

The state of the world in the book... how far away is that from now? Is it ever possible that we might degrade to that? I'm not talking about the world government... I'm talking about the corporate and religious control. There's a section where the President supports an advertising campaign for flowers... and then there's the Foster Approved! brands...

(Hey, the exposition could be worse. Look at Number of the Beast... a book about the possibility of adventure in infinite realities that's really about crew politics.)