Career: Actuary?

[jread]

Never even heard of this profession until a friend told me about it a few months ago. Then, for some reason, I looked it up tonight and thought that it does sound like an awesome career. Now, I'm not a huge fan of math so it seems pretty dumb that I would even think about something like this, then again, I haven't had any math courses in awhile so I don't know if that's changed. The thing I really love about it is that it's one of those few careers that is a mixture of a vareity of fields. It's mostly mathematics, but also includes business, computer science, economics, writing, etc. Not to mention they make kickass money. Hmmm... I have to take a calculus class the summer so we'll see how I feel about it after that, lol.

http://www.beanactuary.org/

[Geoff]

Risk analysts are extraordinarily risk obsessed, usually. And strait laced.

It is also a joke in the accountancy profession about actuaries that "and you thought accountants were boring..."

That doesnt bode well!

-Geoff

[Serotonin]

Stay away jread, just stay away.
Actuarial studies is one of the most dry, humourless, uncreative, mind-numbing professions. You'd be in and out of the job in two days, after having studied for four years to become one. Don't.

[jread]

Hmmm.... this is surprising because they talk about how creative it is and all. I mean it totally sounds like an INTP dream. Even ranked in the top 10 most enjoyable professions.

Then again, that could all be propaganda to get people to do it, lol.

Thanks for the responses so far :)

[flan2dave]

Scored 3/5 on the quizzie.

I'm sure companies would be looking for those who have a PhD in mathematics to fill this kind of position (and if it doesn't require this level of credential, it's probably extremely boring as others have pointed out).

[jjt]

I have an INTP friend who is an actuary - he absolutely loves it!

[Birdsnest]

Go talk to one if you can and ask what is the best and what is the worst thing about their job. If you can stand boring just to put food on the table, it sounds like it would at least give you job security. And accounting is done everywhere, so its really not bad in my opinion, yes numbers might be boring, but they don't talk back and they aren't temperamental like people. I prefer that to the unpredictable aspect of other jobs. I'm an accountant, and its actually not that boring, it gives your brain something to "think" about, there are challenges, and well, everyone is so different, so if YOU like it, go for it regardless of your type. You can handle boredom if your mind is always learning other things.

[Serotonin]

Hmmm.... this is surprising because they talk about how creative it is and all. I mean it totally sounds like an INTP dream. Even ranked in the top 10 most enjoyable professions.

Then again, that could all be propaganda to get people to do it, lol.

Thanks for the responses so far :)

But it all boils down to money. Not science, not humanity, not art etc.

Keep in mind that I'm flagrantly airing my own prejudices here. If it floats yer boat, then pull on the throttle and full steam ahead to yourrrr carreerrrr in Actuarrrrial studies, matey.

:buccaneer smiley:

[Geoff]

Go talk to one if you can and ask what is the best and what is the worst thing about their job. If you can stand boring just to put food on the table, it sounds like it would at least give you job security. And accounting is done everywhere, so its really not bad in my opinion, yes numbers might be boring, but they don't talk back and they aren't temperamental like people. I prefer that to the unpredictable aspect of other jobs. I'm an accountant, and its actually not that boring, it gives your brain something to "think" about, there are challenges, and well, everyone is so different, so if YOU like it, go for it regardless of your type. You can handle boredom if your mind is always learning other things.

I work at a firm of accountants with them. It wasnt a criticism of them, as such, just that if relative to a profession dominated by ISTJs, actuaries were dull, it was a bad sign... It is accountants (here) that make this joke.

-Geoff

[coffeezombie]

Yes, making sure the world is properly insured will make it a better place. Go ahead and be an actuary.

[Johannes de Silencio]

I thought the link was for the role of "bean actuary" now that would have been interesting.

[SheepDog]

I have an INTP friend who is an actuary - he absolutely loves it!
I find this to be very contrary to everything I've heard about the job. I always imagined that it would be less fun than, say, having bamboo shoots shoved underneath your fingernails.

I do think there might be some fun coding opportunities, though.

[Geoff]

I thought the link was for the role of "bean actuary" now that would have been interesting.

Yeah. me too. I was similarly disappointed.

-Geoff

[Hypnos]

Does anyone even know what an actuary does (http://www.actuaries.org.uk/Display_Page.cgi?url=/maintained/careers_and_jobs/do.html)?

It is a very INTP job: you make models on complex systems using simple elements and get to advise people on how to do something optimally.

You do have to be good at math.

[coffeezombie]

Does anyone even know what an actuary does (http://www.actuaries.org.uk/Display_Page.cgi?url=/maintained/careers_and_jobs/do.html)?

It is a very INTP job: you make models on complex systems using simple elements and get to advise people on how to do something optimally.

You do have to be good at math.

In the end, it's making sure that insurance companies make money. I prefer to look more at the ultimate goals when I choose my occupation more than the actual content of the work I'm doing.

[Hypnos]

You're pretty lucky if you enjoy what you do day-to-day, contribute to something you can invest in emotionally, and get paid well to do it. I think for most INTPs, actuarial work provides the first and third.

[Miss Anthropic]

Risk analysts are extraordinarily risk obsessed, usually. And strait laced.

It is also a joke in the accountancy profession about actuaries that "and you thought accountants were boring..."

That doesnt bode well!

-Geoff
I have two friends (they are married to each other) one is an actuary, (the wife) but the husband has taken the test about 4 times and failed; it is really difficult to pass. They work for a major insurance company on the east coast. They are both major math geeks. They do make incredibly good money, but ironically they never think they have enough. They have all the best electronic toys...video games, tvs, and computers and it is all connected into one amazing entertainment system. (I'm adding all these odd details because they have a lifestyle that is very different from mine and I find them fascinating) Their priorities are so different. The wife is totally obsessive compulsive about everything....she is an INTJ...husband INTP for sure--she keeps him totally organized, and he passively goes along with it. (They illustrate the value of J/P relationship). She is sooooo OCD that she goes through her refrigerator at midnite and throws out all the stuff with an expiration date for the following day. They don't especially love their jobs, but the work provides the income to maintain that sort of lifestyle the have.

[Ferrus]

My geeky maths friend is doing acutarial science at university. I think he is INTJ... and he has asbergers. Actually he finds it boring because he says it is ridiculously easy. I often entreated him to do a proper maths degree but his parents drilled in the importance of doing something relevant to your later degree. Ironically however, Maths probably offers one of the best graduate career opportunities.

[Ivy]

I have an INTP (J?) friend who is an actuary. He makes lots of jokes about how boring it is, but then he goes into some enthusiastic diatribe about risk categories or somesuch. It seems like a great career for certain INTPs, especially those to whom math (especially big-picture math and statistics) come very easily.

[Pescaphile]

Actuaries use probability and statistics to determine a most-probable economic value of a person, fund, institution etc. These sort of problems definitely require looking forward to think up various scenarios and 'what ifs?'

Seems actuarial work could be very interesting if it's not overly regimented by too many codes. I really don't know what's it's like in actual practice. I've done some economic analyses myself that factor in probability functions into annual benefits (actually costs avoided) and really have liked that work.

Actuary? Sounds interesting. Perhaps. Accounting? Naw. I don't think so.

[airjaw]

oh god, i considered it too...
yo uhave to pass like 6 HARD tests.

its like a 10 year commitment pretty much.
stay away.

[airjaw]

I have two friends (they are married to each other) one is an actuary, (the wife) but the husband has taken the test about 4 times and failed; it is really difficult to pass. They work for a major insurance company on the east coast. They are both major math geeks. They do make incredibly good money, but ironically they never think they have enough. They have all the best electronic toys...video games, tvs, and computers and it is all connected into one amazing entertainment system. (I'm adding all these odd details because they have a lifestyle that is very different from mine and I find them fascinating) Their priorities are so different. The wife is totally obsessive compulsive about everything....she is an INTJ...husband INTP for sure--she keeps him totally organized, and he passively goes along with it. (They illustrate the value of J/P relationship). She is sooooo OCD that she goes through her refrigerator at midnite and throws out all the stuff with an expiration date for the following day. They don't especially love their jobs, but the work provides the income to maintain that sort of lifestyle the have.

I'm pretty sure I have read this post before. I just want to know, did you go back and find your old reply and copy and paste it or did you write verything again?

[aether]

I'm pretty sure I have read this post before. I just want to know, did you go back and find your old reply and copy and paste it or did you write verything again?

That's her original post, this is an old thread that has been resurrected.

[nittanylion302]

It's a hellishly boring career. My INTJ roommate is an actuarial science major and it fits his strong J tendencies perfectly.

[ygolo]

It's weird. I looked into it. That actually does sound like fun for an INTP.

Will it really take 10 years to get accredited? What if you already have a math heavy job like engineering (funny, I thought that was going to be fun too).

[off-topic]
It seems like every job can have a way that is fun and way that is not.

There was a time when engineering seemed more like inventing little pieces of technology. It was fun and creative then.

Now it is all about getting things checked off of the check-list. It sucks now. Even though, in theory, I am working on much "cooler" technology.
[/off-topic]

[eyebyte_atWork]

I may still take the first exam... just for kicks.

I did study for it once - found it refreshing in that I was back doing math at a decent level (instead of the paying bills math - which sux because all I ever do is pay out - sheesh!).

[Erica_W]

My husband is most likely an INTP and an actuary. He loves it! I often go out with him and his co-workers. They are mad party animals! The one thing I will point out about them is that they are usually traditional (yawn). They aren't sure how to react to unconventional people. In Canada there are 9 difficult exams to take. You definitely have to be a math dynamo. I personally wouldn't go for it because I'm not interested in statistics.

[eyebyte_atWork]

I am still considering it.

The first two exams you can take without sponsorship. Four exams makes you an actuary in the legal sense. The more you take the more you make.

It is one of the few technical paths you can take that can eventually lead to an executive position.

Note - almost all careers can be boring or exciting depending on how you like the subject and/or actual work.

[Ferrus]

My friend did a 3 year BSc course in it. He's working in the field this year, he is an INTJ maths boff... well if it's your thing.

[eyebyte_atWork]

My friend did a 3 year BSc course in it. He's working in the field this year, he is an INTJ maths boff... well if it's your thing.

I think it could be for me - I miss using mah mad math skillz.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Shit - they changed the names of the exams...


SOA Exam P / CAS Exam 1 - Probability
SOA Exam FM / CAS Exam 2 - Financial Mathematics
SOA Exam MLC - Life Contingencies
SOA Exam MFE / CAS Exam 3F - Financial Economics
SOA Exam C / CAS Exam 4 - Construction & Evaluation of Actuarial Models
SOA FAP - Fundamentals of Actuarial Practice
SOA CSP - Individual Life & Annuity
SOA CSP - Health, Group Life & Managed Care
SOA CSP - Retirement (US & Canada)
SOA Advanced Portfolio Management
SOA Financial Economic Theory
SOA Advanced Finance/ERM
SOA DP - Health, Group Life & Managed Care
SOA DP - Individual Life & Annuity
SOA DP - Retirement (US & Canada)

The first one can get you a job in the field - but you pretty much are committing to taking all of them in order to progress in it.

I still may take the first two for kicks.

[Zorro]

I took and passed the first two exams back in the 90's - not easy tests, but nothing beyond calculus, statistics and linear algebra.

The third test, which was the first dealing with real actuarial computations, was supposedly a devil. I bought the textbook, and was just numbed into oblivion by the formulas, tables, and symbols.

I interviewed with a bunch of life insurance companies after passing the tests, thinking that actuarial work would be better than the typical kinds of MBA jobs I had been chasing, but really found it no different than specialized accounting work - just more math oriented.

You spend your days in a corporate office/cubicle grinding out spreadsheets and mathematical analyses...if that's your cup of tea, go for it. Not my thing, though...

[Coelacanth]

Apologies in advance for the thread necromancy inherent in the system.

I am an INTP and an actuary, and I find it to be a highly interesting and worthwhile profession.

There are definitely corners of the actuarial world which are SJ central -- here's this model we've got, here are the parameters, put them in, check everything six times, and report on the results.

However, there's also much more to it. After all someone has to create the models (rather baroque computer programs) in the first place, and it turns out there are a lot of one-off (but highly important) questions which require entirely new models to be put together from scratch. In my current job, I slap together a new model to address a new question at least once a week, there's always something new to keep me entertained, and translating from an ill-defined question to a solid model and defensible results is quite fun.

For an INTP, I especially recommend being an actuarial consultant rather than a company actuary, at least at first -- you'll get as much novelty as you could ever possibly want, and vast quantities of difficult questions requiring complex analysis to answer.

Also, the pay's decent, you don't have to deal with much micromanagment (at least I haven't) -- just be prepared to defend your results -- and the hours are usually flexible.

You do need a fair bit of mathematical ability and education, though. Calculus and basic statistics are pretty much essential, and more advanced stuff can come in handy from time to time. Knowing how to code is also a huge plus.

[Thirsty]

I like how this thread has died, come back to life, died again, been revived, and finally, killed a third time, only to have been necromanced again.

However, it is an INTP relevant discussion, so I don't think anyone is going to mind.

My question about the subject is this: It seems like a heavily people-oriented profession, with little "adventure" involved. Is this a misguided view?

[aether]

I wonder if underwriting could be a good stepping stone for actuarial work and if that's also suitable for INTPs. I didn't know there was insurance consulting, is that only for actuaries? Consulting in general might be good for INTPs, I would suspect. Any thoughts?

[Coelacanth]

My question about the subject is this: It seems like a heavily people-oriented profession, with little "adventure" involved. Is this a misguided view?

I wouldn't call it especially people-oriented, you certainly don't have to interact with customers or anything. It's probably about as people-oriented as being a software engineer.

And it's not exactly sailing the high seas, but there are definitely new challenges all the time, which keep life interesting.

[md5fungi]

I wonder if underwriting could be a good stepping stone for actuarial work and if that's also suitable for INTPs. I didn't know there was insurance consulting, is that only for actuaries? Consulting in general might be good for INTPs, I would suspect. Any thoughts?

Could be... but a better stepping stone before becoming an actuary is a shitload of Math. Make sure you sharpen those math skills like a #2 pencil so those actuarial exams don't fuck you in the hippocampus.

It actually sounds like a cool job, though; I was considering it. You get to play with numbers all day.

[Coelacanth]

Could be... but a better stepping stone before becoming an actuary is a shitload of Math. Make sure you sharpen those math skills like a #2 pencil so those actuarial exams don't fuck you in the hippocampus.

It actually sounds like a cool job, though; I was considering it. You get to play with numbers all day.

Stepping stones aren't required -- if you can pass the exams, you can work as an actuary, insurance experience is irrelevant. Are you're right -- to pass the exams, the main thing you need is solid math skills -- with an extra bonus if you've got a good memory.

And yep, playing with numbers all day is a pretty good description of what I do.

[applecor]

Would you say that high IQ is an overall trait of actuaries? :)

[Coelacanth]

Would you say that high IQ is an overall trait of actuaries? :)

Some more than others, but we're generally a pretty bright group of people. Esepcially, as one might guess, in the mathematical realm.

[surrealist]

What do actuaries use as contraceptives?

Answer: Their personality

[KatharineHudson]

Would you say that high IQ is an overall trait of actuaries? :)

That is hilarious. I would say so. I think that Steve Carrell's character in Along Came Polly was an Actuary. You have do assess and manage risk for companies. Risk management is a huge part of being an actuary. I did some research and found that an Actaury's official definition is a "business professional who analyzes the financial consequences of risk."

Like everyone said before, the Actuary exams are supposed to be extremely difficult. I think you should definitely do some reasearch and look into it, see if its worth your while.

Hudson, a company I have worked with, has a good webinar on Enterprise Risk Management (http://us.hudson.com/finance/node.asp?kwd=erm) which plays a large role in an actuary's job.

[avolkiteshvara]

What do actuaries use as contraceptives?

Answer: Their personality

Ha nice. This guy is funny. Why did you have to ban him.

[stuck]

Ha nice. This guy is funny. Why did you have to ban him.

standard risk management stuff

[Ivy]

I have an INTP (J?) friend who is an actuary. He makes lots of jokes about how boring it is, but then he goes into some enthusiastic diatribe about risk categories or somesuch. It seems like a great career for certain INTPs, especially those to whom math (especially big-picture math and statistics) come very easily.

Update on this friend- he burnt out, but fortunately he had saved up a small fortune by that time. He quit his job, wrote a novel, and spent 6 months hiking whatever the Pacific version of the Appalachian Trail is.

[fripping]

Update on this friend- he burnt out, but fortunately he had saved up a small fortune by that time. He quit his job, wrote a novel, and spent 6 months hiking whatever the Pacific version of the Appalachian Trail is.

you might be talking about the pacific crest trail.

[Ivy]

Yes! That's it. I could have googled but I prefer fripping.

[fripping]

hooray, i'm relevant!

[allenlowe]

Hi All,

I am not a INTP, happened to be here when searching some actuarial articles. It remind me when we have a regional conference in Malaysia 6 years ago. In a room of 20 actuaries, 16 are "I". Yes, most of them are "INT". The only 4 E are those actuaries working in regional office including me. I am an ENTJ and I am an actuary too.

I think most of you talking about actuary as a job forget about the examination part. You need to think about that you are supposed to give up your night life and holidays for the next 3-7 years depends on your exam progress. I guess that's why "I" is more suitable because they suppose to have less social life.

Also, the first 2 papers suppose to be easy enough that an average college student with Math background shouldn't have any problem to pass. I suggest you take a look at the 3rd and 4th paper before deciding your career. You don't want to stuck in the middle and change your career 2 or 3 years later.

Cheers,
Allen Lowe