Smart woman with short hair = Lesbian?

[bootness]

This article from newsweek sounded depressingly familiar to me. (Is Kagan a lesbian, and why should we even care?) (http://www.newsweek.com/id/237884)

The minute most people see a woman who is intelligent, committed to her work, has short hair, and wears sensible shoes, well she must be a lesbian. I have been assumed to be a lesbian (and taunted and attacked for it) for most of my life, except when I was a skinny teenager and then some folks in passing cars would get confused and think I was a gay boy.

No, I don't want to talk about my fashion choices or American Idol all day. I wear shoes that I can walk in for miles if need be. (I think that high heels are only any good if they are aimed at the ceiling.) I keep my hair short because then I don't have to spend 2 hours making it look decent every morning. I bought a house on my own because it made financial sense for me at the time. Perfume is too smelly, I'm too lazy to wear much makeup, and my taste in clothes runs to jeans and band t-shirts, or leather if I'm "dressing up." So, I get called a lesbian or dyke very often (now that I've had kids, I'm a "fat dyke".) Any other INTP females run into this?

I've reached the point that I'm growing my hair & dressing to hide my tattoos just so I won't get yelled at from cars while I'm with my toddler & infant... it freaks them out when strangers shriek at their mommy. But it pisses me off that I have to.

[Flatchett]

Where the fuck do you live?

[bootness]

Where the fuck do you live?

Oregon. In a college town filled with hippies. It is a town that likes to think of itself as very liberal, but I've been chased by pickup trucks full of hicks/fratboys screaming, "F*ck!ing Dyke!" or even, a few times "F-ing Spic! Spic bitch!" (I'm mostly English and German. Idiots.)

[NoahFence]

Smart women with short hair are dick shrivellers to men who want an easily dominated ego-stroking Campbell's Canned Maiden. Calling them lesbians is an expedient way to explain the utter lack of swoon, thereby supporting their self-perceived awesomeness.

[atom]

I prefer girls with short hair. They always seem more interesting.

[Gchrist]

Stereotypes exist. She looks like a stereotypical lesbian. People comment on it (for whatever reason). It becomes rumor. Media picks it up. It becomes sensation due to lack of relevant things to talk about.

Add in political maneuvering for extra effect.

[elfsprin]

i had ~2 inch long spiked hair from 2000 to 2005. many people actually asked if i had 'become' a lesbian. i thought it was interesting that these questions only came from people who were in / had been in classes with me. in the case of new strangers, they asked after we had engaged in some form of witty repartee or discussion.

i'm not sure we can count the questions from strangers as statistically significant, though, as they may have simply been liberal and open-minded, and tactful enough to want to establish a positive interpersonal dynamic (to both get a sense of me and to have me get a sense of them) before diving in to ask about historically controversial personal attributes.

[stigmatica]

My sister got stuck with the lesbian stigma in HS. She didn't have short hair, but she could bench press more than a lot of guys, and was 5'10" tall (relatively tall for a woman). Some ass holes would tell her she looked like her brother (me) with a wig on. She was much the tomboy, and still is, but never attracted to women. She was the only female in the fire department at one point during college, I think. She's always been very active against gay prejudice, especially in college. For her, it's personal, though she's not even a lesbian. I think it's a good thing.

[NoahFence]

It's less stereotypes than cultural norms. All I'd have to do to get called a fag is walk around in a dress. The instant visual cue is "outside the norm". That's enough analysis for most people, because their responses are the same for the whole set.

[Rhu]

I find women with short hair to be more aerodynamic than gay.

[MoneyJungle]

I get called a fag somewhat frequently, and I don't even dress that well.

[Curtis24]

I think its more the short hair than it is being smart, having a career, etc. Hair is such a critical component of being attractive towards men, that for a woman to cut it off, people interpret that as her saying she doesn't care if she's physically attractive to men or not.

[Scarlett letters]

I think its more the short hair than it is being smart, having a career, etc. Hair is such a critical component of being attractive towards men, that for a woman to cut it off, people interpret that as her saying she doesn't care if she's physically attractive to men or not.

Why does that make her a lesbian?

[stigmatica]

Why does that make her a lesbian?
He's not saying it does. He's saying that for some, it gives the impression. Why does it give the impression? According to Curtis24:

Hair is such a critical component of being attractive towards men, that for a woman to cut it off, people interpret that as her saying she doesn't care if she's physically attractive to men or not.

[qualia]

Hair is such a critical component of being attractive towards men, that for a woman to cut it off, people interpret that as her saying she doesn't care if she's physically attractive to men or not.WTF, no. It's not. Some women with wonderful bone structure even look better without lots of hair to hide it. Some women don't have the half hour to hour to take care of long hair every day. Plenty of men like short hair, and no man worth five seconds of my time has it as a deal breaker.

And in any case, I don't see why being attractive according to a stereotypical vanilla straight yuppie porno sorority churchlady sitcom standard should be the top of anyone's priorities list. There is something wrong with a man who thinks like that's brain.

[Curtis24]

Yeah. The OP states "why do people think women with short hair are lesbian". I was answering that question.

I know plenty of women with short hair can be attractive, and I"m not saying they can't be. However, long hair tends to be so associated with femaleness and sexuality, that if a woman cuts her hair, people interpret that she's trying to make herself less female. I guess I should have used the word "femalel" instead of attractive.

[Scarlett letters]

He's not saying it does. He's saying that for some, it gives the impression. Why does it give the impression? According to Curtis24:

That begs the question. It doesn't answer it.

[Curtis24]

That begs the question. It doesn't answer it.


I know plenty of women with short hair can be attractive, and I"m not saying they can't be. However, long hair tends to be so associated with femaleness and sexuality, that if a woman cuts her hair, people interpret that she's trying to make herself less female. I guess I should have used the word "femalel" instead of attractive.

I would also argue most men find short hair less attractive.

[stigmatica]

That begs the question. It doesn't answer it.
The question being:

Why does that make her a lesbian?
I don't think it does, and I don't think Curtis24 does either.

As far as perception, I agree with Curtis24, that an extremely short haircut (like mine, perhaps... buzz cut), certainly can affect a first impression as such. Much like a buzz cut on a guy might give the impression that he's in the military.

Once, I shaved my head bald for a while. When a group of skinheads started talking to me like I was one of them, I decided bald was creating the wrong impression. ;)

[Scarlett letters]

I would also argue most men find short hair less attractive.
:stupid:
You still don't get it. Whether a man finds a woman attractive or not says nothing about HER sexuality.

[qualia]

I would also argue most men find short hair less attractive.I get much more attention with shorter hair because longer hair plays up my "younger" features, and shorter hair plays up my jawline and cheekbones. It really depends on the woman.

Also, where I live, it's advertisement of 1) how high maintenance you are and 2) whether you're a californian yuppy/ Republican or a "hippy." Reliably, shorter hair = more crunchy granola type. Men who don't want a church lady go for the shorter hair.

[Anonymous]

I would also argue most men find short hair less attractive.

Why, because you find short hair less attractive? I like it.

[stigmatica]

I get much more attention with shorter hair because longer hair plays up my "younger" features, and shorter hair plays up my jawline and cheekbones. It really depends on the woman.
Yep. I find some women to be extremely cute with short hair, others not so much.

[stigmatica]

:stupid:
You still don't get it. Whether a man finds a woman attractive or not says nothing about HER sexuality.
According to the TV and movies it does. ;)

The stereotype of a lesbian has short hair. It's actually more than just TV and Movie portrayal. I know 3 lesbians in RL, and they all have short hair. :mellow:

Edit: My bad. I thought we were still talking about short hair. No, attractive does not. But short hair does.

[Scarlett letters]

According to the TV and movies it does. ;)

The stereotype of a lesbian has short hair. It's actually more than just TV and Move portrayal. I know 3 lesbians in RL, and they all have short hair. :mellow:

Oh well. That's conclusive then.

So what you are trying to say is that faulty logic is to blame?
I would agree.

[stigmatica]

Oh well. That's conclusive then.

So what you are trying to say is that faulty logic is to blame?
I would agree.
Yep. Faulty logic.

A high percentage of known lesbians have short hair: True
Having short hair makes you a lesbian: True <--- Faulty logic

[qualia]

I think there are also a number of self-centered dickheads who believe

Doesn't want to/ care about being attractive to me ---> Dyke

No matter what sex she actually is attracted to.

[foodeater]

I like when girls have short hair. Sometimes I associate it with being a lesbian, but only if they are masculine. I think it's often assumed that short hair makes you look more like a boy so you must be trying to attract women.

[Flatchett]

http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/Audrey%20Hepburn%200001.jpg

DYKE!!1elevnty!!!11

[Delilah]

http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/Audrey%20Hepburn%200001.jpg

DYKE!!1elevnty!!!11

Not funny, Flatulence, not funny at all.

[avolkiteshvara]

Ya know, just because a lesbian has short hair doesn't mean she wants to be a man.

[bootness]

I dunno, it seems like lots of attractive (to me anyway, as role models- not partners) women have short hair: Halle Barry, Winona Rider, Angeline Jolie back in the good old days. It can really suit finer featured people better than great big hair. I tend to associate it with more adventurous or edgy/interesting personalities. Why can't people think about that?

And furthermore, why should it even matter? I mean, so what if somebody thinks I'm a lesbian? Unless they want to have sex with me, it really isn't their business, is it? I have lots of gay and lesbian friends, and they are all pretty funny and intelligent people. I can't see why somebody feels like they have to follow me down the street in their truck shouting at me. Points to their intelligence level I guess, shouting out gay and racial slurs at me, when I'm actually straight and white. Haters gotta hate!

I guess it just is depressing to realize it's not just me, it can happen to some poor woman who was a Dean of Law at Harvard too. Really, I wish people could wake up and realize we have so much more of value to offer than pretty hair or nice knockers.

[Lurker]

Where the fuck do you live?

My first reaction as well, but then...


Oregon. In a college town filled with hippies. It is a town that likes to think of itself as very liberal, but I've been chased by pickup trucks full of hicks/fratboys screaming, "F*ck!ing Dyke!" or even, a few times "F-ing Spic! Spic bitch!" (I'm mostly English and German. Idiots.)

this. I'm actually a lesbian, and I haven't had any experiences like this. Maybe it is all in the hair! Mine is medium length. Otherwise, I'm not particularly frilly. If anything, I dress too casual.

Also, I'm deaf in one ear, so maybe I miss a lot of comments.

I'm sorry this happens to you.

[Delilah]

this. I'm actually a lesbian, and I haven't had any experiences like this. Maybe it is all in the hair! Mine is medium length. Otherwise, I'm not particularly frilly. If anything, I dress too casual.

Obviously you're not a real lesbian, do you want to borrow some of my flannel shirts?

[Scarlett letters]

I guess it just is depressing to realize it's not just me, it can happen to some poor woman who was a Dean of Law at Harvard too. Really, I wish people could wake up and realize we have so much more of value to offer than pretty hair or nice knockers.

You thought you were the only victim of misogyny?

[bootness]

Obviously you're not a real lesbian, do you want to borrow some of my flannel shirts?

Oh god, flannel shirts too?! For crying out loud. Maybe I AM a lesbian, and I just didn't realize it. I mean, hey, it's the Pacific Northwest. Doesn't everyone wear flannel?

[stigmatica]

Oh god, flannel shirts too?! For crying out loud. Maybe I AM a lesbian, and I just didn't realize it. I mean, hey, it's the Pacific Northwest. Doesn't everyone wear flannel?
Combat boots?

[bootness]

You thought you were the only victim of misogyny?

Well, that or misplaced homophobia. Not hating women, but hating women you think are gay even if they are not gay. :mellow:

[Scarlett letters]

Well, that or misplaced homophobia. Not hating women, but hating women you think are gay even if they are not gay. :mellow:

I don't think it has much to do with homophobia.

[bootness]

Combat boots?

Uh, yeah, but they're cute and feminine on me, I swear! When paired with a tutu, very adorable. I think folks confuse lesbian with punk rock chick fashion. Maybe they are one and the same thing.

[Delilah]

Oh god, flannel shirts too?! For crying out loud. Maybe I AM a lesbian, and I just didn't realize it. I mean, hey, it's the Pacific Northwest. Doesn't everyone wear flannel?

I'm in the midwest and I wear a lot of flannel, I was also thinking of getting my hair cut really short this next time around.

Do you maybe wanna, I don't know, go out sometime? *awkward blushing*

[Lurker]

Obviously you're not a real lesbian, do you want to borrow some of my flannel shirts?

I think I do. Most of my shirts actually are flowing or have a feminine cut. What kind of lesbian representative am I?!

In fact, look at my avatar. Her hair is longer than mine, but she's got the flowing, poofy shirt thing going on. I wear shirts like that. Um hmm. :)

[Delilah]

I think I do. Most of my shirts actually are flowing or have a feminine cut. What kind of lesbian representative am I?!

Sounds to me like you fail pretty miserably, but it also sounds like I am one of the best lesbians around! Now, to find me a woman!

*waits for bootness' answer*

[stigmatica]

Lurker, I hope you're taking notes. Your lesbian skills are severely lacking. :rolleyes:

[elfsprin]

I know plenty of women with short hair can be attractive, and I"m not saying they can't be. However, long hair tends to be so associated with femaleness and sexuality, that if a woman cuts her hair, people interpret that she's trying to make herself less female. I guess I should have used the word "femalel" instead of attractive.

i still looked pretty feminine with the short hair, partially (i think) because i was ridiculously skinny with c cups, and i have a very feminine facial structure.

on the other hand, the big chest may have simply imparted an impression of upper body bulk. i also had pretty well defined biceps and very strong shoulders (i lifted a bit in highschool. also, my mom used a wheelchair for ~ 14 years before getting double knee replacement, and i developed a lot of upper body strength pushing her around). while i wouldn't describe my muscles as bulky, i was quite strong and i'm sure the musculature stood out in contrast to my overall skinniness.

that could certainly have contributed to the lesbian queries.

[Delilah]

i still looked pretty feminine with the short hair, partially (i think) because i was ridiculously skinny with c cups, and i have a very feminine facial structure.


I don't know if I did or not, it was the 80's. I'll have to find a picture when I get home so youall can laugh and point.

[bootness]

I'm in the midwest and I wear a lot of flannel, I was also thinking of getting my hair cut really short this next time around.

Do you maybe wanna, I don't know, go out sometime? *awkward blushing*


Well, we are obviously soul mates. I guess I'll have to reconsider this whole heterosexuality thing, since apparently I've been deceiving myself!

[Lurker]

Lurker, I hope you're taking notes. Your lesbian skills are severely lacking. :rolleyes:

Well, I have a good, sturdy frame though, and I'm surprisingly strong. Don't count me out!

[Lurker]

Well, we are obviously soul mates. I guess I'll have to reconsider this whole heterosexuality thing, since apparently I've been deceiving myself!

Yep, I guess it's time to take the question mark out of the thread title.

[elfsprin]

I don't know if I did or not, it was the 80's. I'll have to find a picture when I get home so youall can laugh and point.

i would never! :wub:

[MacGuffin]

But... But... But! If straight women have short hair, and lesbians have long hair, how will we men be able to pick out the lesbians???

We won't ask women out for deathly fear of accidently asking out a lesbian = no dating = no marriage = no babies = the extinction of the human race!

Nice going women! This is why I'll never vote for Hillary Clinton!!!

[bootness]

"I think tattoos and piercings are a good thing. That way, you can tell who ain't right, just by looking at 'em." Hank Hill

[Scarlett letters]

But... But... But! If straight women have short hair, and lesbians have long hair, how will we men be able to pick out the lesbians???

We won't ask women out for deathly fear of accidently asking out a lesbian = no dating = no marriage = no babies = the extinction of the human race!


A small price to pay.
*shaves head*

[Delilah]

You know why else I think I am a lesbian? I listened to, and sang, like, 4 Melissa Etheridge songs on my drive home, while wearing my flannel jacket.

[NoahFence]

You know why else I think I am a lesbian? I listened to, and sang, like, 4 Melissa Etheridge songs on my drive home, while wearing my flannel jacket.

"Oh, and I fucked this chick at the Burger King. But the flannel was really the giveaway."

[Lurker]

You know why else I think I am a lesbian? I listened to, and sang, like, 4 Melissa Etheridge songs on my drive home, while wearing my flannel jacket.

And I cranked up a Sarah McLachlan tune on the radio yesterday. What a crazy world!

[Delilah]

"Oh, and I fucked this chick at the Burger King. But the flannel was really the giveaway."

I thought it was the duct-taped, high waisted jean shorts that gave me away. At least, that's what she said.

[Rincon]

I don't know if I did or not, it was the 80's. I'll have to find a picture when I get home so youall can laugh and point.

That 80's one you posted before with the semi-spiky hair with a bow in it was pretty cute.

[Delilah]

That 80's one you posted before with the semi-spiky hair with a bow in it was pretty cute.

Zip it! That was when my hair was growing out.....

[MacGuffin]

Oh shit! I just realized Ghost-Girl cut her hair short!

Is she trying to say she's a lesbian? So confusing!

[Delilah]

I was a lesbian in 1984, and I hated pants then too:

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss341/cdel_album/home%20and%20stuff/scan-1.jpg

[mchampagne]

This article from newsweek sounded depressingly familiar to me. (Is Kagan a lesbian, and why should we even care?) (http://www.newsweek.com/id/237884)

The minute most people see a woman who is intelligent, committed to her work, has short hair, and wears sensible shoes, well she must be a lesbian. I have been assumed to be a lesbian (and taunted and attacked for it) for most of my life, except when I was a skinny teenager and then some folks in passing cars would get confused and think I was a gay boy.

No, I don't want to talk about my fashion choices or American Idol all day. I wear shoes that I can walk in for miles if need be. (I think that high heels are only any good if they are aimed at the ceiling.) I keep my hair short because then I don't have to spend 2 hours making it look decent every morning. I bought a house on my own because it made financial sense for me at the time. Perfume is too smelly, I'm too lazy to wear much makeup, and my taste in clothes runs to jeans and band t-shirts, or leather if I'm "dressing up." So, I get called a lesbian or dyke very often (now that I've had kids, I'm a "fat dyke".) Any other INTP females run into this?

I've reached the point that I'm growing my hair & dressing to hide my tattoos just so I won't get yelled at from cars while I'm with my toddler & infant... it freaks them out when strangers shriek at their mommy. But it pisses me off that I have to.

Supreme Court confirmations are incredibly detached from reality in terms of how the political parties attack the nominees. When you're in the opposing party, it's not about trying to find out who the person is, how they think, etc., in some kind of sincere and honest way. It's about making the party in power suffer for having nominated them. Once you realize that is the goal when politicians come out attacking Kagan's sexuality, you will see that they'll try to find anything to make any nominee appear out of the mainstream. Whether or not some of them have drawn an honest conclusion about Kagan's sexuality is irrelevant. It's all about how the accusation plays out in the court of public opinion. You want to create another political liability for the President, whether or not this person is actually going to get confirmed. It's actually kind of a smart strategy.

[1104]

last year on google i came across this: mullet proof (http://littlecuirjacket.blogspot.com/2008/08/mullet-proof.html)
though i'm straight, i fit the bill.

i was mistaken for a boy several times last year, but then again my head was Natalie Portman bald. people would immediately correct themselves once they saw my face, which is clearly female.

[avolkiteshvara]

"Meg Ryan is America's Sweetheart"

[bass_n_treble]

Enough of this lesbian nonsense! I'm still trying to prove Obama is from Kenya!

[qualia]

"Meg Ryan is America's Sweetheart"I HATE that haircut. HATE.

[elfsprin]

I was a lesbian in 1984, and I hated pants then too:


i am laughing, but not pointing.

["?"]

I prefer girls with short hair. They always seem more interesting.Damn, so do I. I consider short hair extremely sexy and prefer a woman with little or no make-up and dresses comfortably. I am surprised about the area, since the OP sounds as though she should fit right in, in the Northwest area. At least Seattle was very progressive when I last visited.

["?"]

Enough of this lesbian nonsense! I'm still trying to prove Obama is from Kenya!LOL, you're ISTJ.

[Madrigal]

When I chopped my hair off really short it inaugurated the heyday of my sexual opportunities, I got hit on more by men and women alike. But now that I'm older I leave it long so I can look younger. :D

[stuck]

, in the Northwest area. At least Seattle was very progressive when I last visited.

There's pockets of scary hicks up there, too. Olympia is a prime example- Evergreen is chock full of hippies, militant lesbians, anarchists, and angry hipsters- while the surrounding area is more conservative with longshoremen and loggers.

I bet bootness is in eugene, which is similar.

[Delilah]

i am laughing, but not pointing.

I was pointing and laughing while choosing them!

[stuck]

I was a lesbian in 1984, and I hated pants then too:

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss341/cdel_album/home%20and%20stuff/scan-1.jpg

Can't start a fire without a spark!

[Delilah]

Can't start a fire without a spark!

Not a Springsteen fan.

[stuck]

Not a Springsteen fan.

I think your hair was, though

http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/courtney-cox-in-dancing-in-the-dark-30492.jpg

[Madrigal]

Are we posting embarrassing pics now?

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu304/Madrigalstuff/skirts/shorth.jpg?t=1273794626

[qualia]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/picture.php?albumid=101&pictureid=1059
SAPPHIST
HAIR
CLUB
UNF


(I am growing it out, though)

[Delilah]

I think your hair was, though

http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/courtney-cox-in-dancing-in-the-dark-30492.jpg

It was the 80's! And I was more a fan of :

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss341/cdel_album/joan-jett-quat-square.jpg

*better, Master bronze?

[stuck]

It was the 80's! And I was more a fan of :
[joan jett pic]

zomg pertinent!

ps: maybe we could overthrow the chauvinist hierarchy w/ a smaller pic?

[Delilah]

o pertinent!

:yes:

[Madrigal]

(I am growing it out, though)

How come? It looks good short.

[Anonymous]

Are we posting embarrassing pics now?


Holy shit, you fail at being embarrassing. You're smoldering in that.

[qualia]

How come? It looks good short.I cut it because it was no longer wavy, it just looked dead. My diet's better and it's coming in curly again. I kind of miss my BIG wild curly red hair from when I was 19.

Plus I can cut it all off again if it doesn't work out. :grin:

[Madrigal]

Holy shit, you fail at being embarrassing. You're smoldering in that.
I didn't know you liked trashy girls Anon.


I cut it because it was no longer wavy, it just looked dead. My diet's better and it's coming in curly again. I kind of miss my BIG wild curly red hair from when I was 19.

Plus I can cut it all off again if it doesn't work out. :grin:
Whaa? I had no idea waves and diet were connected. But it is hard to keep it short and manageable with curls.

[qualia]

Whaa? I had no idea waves and diet were connected. But it is hard to keep it short and manageable with curls.Poor diet/ health certainly makes my hair less healthy, seems like. I got mono while my hair was growing out last time and it came in board-straight and fine.

[stuck]

Whaa? I had no idea waves and diet were connected.

omega-3!


wouldn't it be great if chemist were a lesbian with lackluster hair?
WOUDLNT THAT BE FUCKING GREAT MY BRETHEREN? SISTEREN?

:whyi:

[jyng1]

omega-3!


wouldn't it be great if chemist were a lesbian with lackluster hair?
WOUDLNT THAT BE FUCKING GREAT MY BRETHEREN? SISTEREN?

:whyi:

I can remember a pic of her a while back and her hair is down past her waist. I think it was her that also rode motorbikes and had a multi-engined pilots licence-probably IFR rated (bitch).

[stuck]

I can remember a pic of her a while back and her hair is down past her waist. I think it was her that also rode motorbikes and had a multi-engined pilots licence-probably IFR rated (bitch).

I think this is proof positive of a long-hair intelligent heterosexual female conspiracy to suppress lesbian women (aka INTPs) by robbing them of their omega-3 and thus making them want to cut their hair short.

[jyng1]

I think this is proof positive of a long-hair intelligent heterosexual female conspiracy to suppress lesbian women (aka INTPs) by robbing them of their omega-3 and thus making them want to cut their hair short.

Thank God we kicked her out!

[momidoll]

I've had short hair for quite a few years and I have never been asked if I was a lesbian. What does hair length have to do with sexuality? I've seen just as many long hair lesbians as I have short hair lesbians.

[Anonymous]

I didn't know you liked trashy girls Anon.


Pfft, you're totally not trashy in that. But yes, I do. Could you tell me where to find them?

[esthim8]

This article from newsweek sounded depressingly familiar to me. (Is Kagan a lesbian, and why should we even care?) (http://www.newsweek.com/id/237884)

The minute most people see a woman who is intelligent, committed to her work, has short hair, and wears sensible shoes, well she must be a lesbian. I have been assumed to be a lesbian (and taunted and attacked for it) for most of my life, except when I was a skinny teenager and then some folks in passing cars would get confused and think I was a gay boy.

No, I don't want to talk about my fashion choices or American Idol all day. I wear shoes that I can walk in for miles if need be. (I think that high heels are only any good if they are aimed at the ceiling.) I keep my hair short because then I don't have to spend 2 hours making it look decent every morning. I bought a house on my own because it made financial sense for me at the time. Perfume is too smelly, I'm too lazy to wear much makeup, and my taste in clothes runs to jeans and band t-shirts, or leather if I'm "dressing up." So, I get called a lesbian or dyke very often (now that I've had kids, I'm a "fat dyke".) Any other INTP females run into this?

I've reached the point that I'm growing my hair & dressing to hide my tattoos just so I won't get yelled at from cars while I'm with my toddler & infant... it freaks them out when strangers shriek at their mommy. But it pisses me off that I have to.

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if this point has been raised. Studies show that we are uncanny in spotting homosexuality from appearance alone, but this has more to do with pitch of voice and the way people conduct themselves than hair and clothing style. Of course there are some false positives. Regarding Kagan, other than her appearance, her lack of a husband and children is not helping her case.

Personally I think it is silly to give sexuality a lot of thought. This response is only made because of my dislike of conclusion jumping , which you seem to base on your own - and therefore maybe a bit skewed - opinion. Especially as the tone of your post indicates that this had an effect on you.

If it makes you feel any better, I hate myself for this post.

[PiccoloNamek]

Oregon. In a college town filled with hippies. It is a town that likes to think of itself as very liberal, but I've been chased by pickup trucks full of hicks/fratboys screaming, "F*ck!ing Dyke!" or even, a few times "F-ing Spic! Spic bitch!" (I'm mostly English and German. Idiots.)

How the fuck does shit like that happen in Oregon, of all places? It almost makes me ashamed to be an Oregonian.

[bass_n_treble]

Oh, shit! We're talking about a Supreme Court Justice!

I thought INTPc haircuts were News, Politics, & History.

I'll be damned.

[bootness]

Studies show that we are uncanny in spotting homosexuality from appearance alone, but this has more to do with pitch of voice and the way people conduct themselves than hair and clothing style.

Personally I think it is silly to give sexuality a lot of thought. This response is only made because of my dislike of conclusion jumping , which you seem to base on your own - and therefore maybe a bit skewed - opinion. Especially as the tone of your post indicates that this had an effect on you.


This is probably why I get hasseled by people who have not spoken to me personally (from passing pick-ups, usually) more than by those who actually talk to me face to face. I also dislike conclusion jumping, particularly when it results in some redneck deciding he needs to verbally abuse me for being a spic dyke when I'm a caucasian hetero breeder. I will agree that my opinion is skewed, because I've been on the receiving end of some nasty behavior and comments, and it pains me when someone who I think should be "above all of that" (ok, naive, I know) gets the same treatment.

[lowtech redneck]

I tend to associate it with more adventurous or edgy/interesting personalities.

Other than the fact that you don't (presumably) inflict these associations on strangers, what makes your apparent association of long-hair with dull, uninteresting women any better than associating short hair with man-hating lesbianism?

[HoneyCyclical]

I had some comments but b2b beat me to them almost word for word.

I did have a hair/lezo experience a few months ago. I mentioned that I wanted to get my hair cut and a lady I work with said, "Girl, why would you want to do that? Men love long hair." It was just such a stupid question/comment I responded, "Why would that matter?" She immediately asked, "Are you gay?"
Sigh.

So because it's not a personal criteria for me to look or wear my hair in a way that I believe will receive approval and positive sexual responses from men (especially strangers) I MUST be gay. I didn't bother answering her. What would have been the point.



Other than the fact that you don't (presumably) inflict these associations on strangers, what makes your apparent association of long-hair with dull, uninteresting women any better than associating short hair with man-hating lesbianism?

It isn't.

I'd ask the same about this comment:


I prefer girls with short hair. They always seem more interesting.

[Cbug]

Other than the fact that you don't (presumably) inflict these associations on strangers, what makes your apparent association of long-hair with dull, uninteresting women any better than associating short hair with man-hating lesbianism?

Yeah. For a split second I thought, is my long hair telling people that?
I'm gonna start feeling inadequate about the length my hair too...great.

[Resonance]

I've had short hair for quite a few years and I have never been asked if I was a lesbian.
That's because you're stunning.

The style of the short hair matters, too.


What does hair length have to do with sexuality? I've seen just as many long hair lesbians as I have short hair lesbians.
It's a traditional thing, I think. It used to be a subtle cue, but now everybody knows about it so it's a stereotype instead.

[momidoll]

Thanks Blairvoyant:happpy:

[HoneyCyclical]

That's because you're stunning.



There are no stunning lesbians?

[Resonance]

There are no stunning lesbians?

If she isn't interested in him, it's because she's out of his league rather than because she's a lesbian, perhaps.

[MoneyJungle]

Only the smart women with short hair who have no interest in engaging with sexual relations with yours truly.

[HoneyCyclical]

If she isn't interested in him, it's because she's out of his league rather than because she's a lesbian, perhaps.

Sometimes, in cases like that if the guy does hit on a girl and gets rejected, his entertaining the "you're a lezo!" response helps nurse his boo boo.

But still...there aren't lesbians that are so stunning as to be "out of his league"?

[Resonance]

Certainly, but he won't assume they are lesbians (I guess)

[HoneyCyclical]

Certainly, but he won't assume they are lesbians (I guess)

So....some men (or this hypothetical man) assume women with short hair are lesbians but only if they are (at maximum) moderately attractive? Any more attractive than that and they are simply out of their league and the state of being out of their league trumps the possibility of being a lesbian (in their mind)?

[jyng1]

So....some men assume women with short hair are lesbians but only if they are (at maximum) moderately attractive? Any more attractive than that and they are simply out of their league and the state of being out of their league trumps being a lesbian (in their mind)?

I just assume all women are out of my league. Lesbians included.

[cripple]

And furthermore, why should it even matter? I mean, so what if somebody thinks I'm a lesbian?
Does it? I guess it depends if you think homosexuality is a great thing, or not such great a thing. It could be uncomfortable for you, also physical insecurity if emotions run strong.

But people do have preferences. And for some these are important enough for them to step over bodies to preserve an harmonic idyll.

If you choose to go down the street with short hair be aware that you are creating chaos and unrest. People will try to strike you down, as it's not common. So be careful.

[atom]

I'd ask the same about this comment:

If I had to rationalize my attraction, I'd say the willingness to defy social conventions (women should be feminine -> women should maintain long hair) correlates with a ability to think independently which makes a person interesting.

[kali]

i had ~2 inch long spiked hair from 2000 to 2005. many people actually asked if i had 'become' a lesbian.

Yeah, I had really short hair when I was 14. And had tins and tins of gel/wax/putty/rubber to spike it up.

Um, the only time I've been asked if I liked the vag - I went up to a girl and asked if she was a lesbian and she said "yes" and then she asked "are you?"

[momidoll]

If I had to rationalize my attraction, I'd say the willingness to defy social conventions (women should be feminine -> women should maintain long hair) correlates with a ability to think independently which makes a person interesting.

Your explanation just reminded me of one of the main reasons why I did the big chop years ago. I was 18 when my grandmother who raised me passed away. My life drastically took a turn for the worst at that time. Consequently, I felt the need to do something to start a new phase in my life, so in addition to leaving home abruptly with no stable place to go, I also cut my hair. It felt so good and therapeutic watching it all fall to the ground. It was as if I was shedding my old life for a new one where I didn't care about what others thought.
I felt so free, and I was finally being myself and not what other people said I should be. I wanted to go against the grain. I didn't care if people thought short hair wasn't as beautiful as long hair. I decided at the age of 18 that if someone rejected me based on having short hair or on any of my other features, then they just wasn't the person for me.
As far as social conventions, I've always shunned them and did my own thing instead. I have no problem being defiant lol. I actually embrace the fact that I don't give a $*%$# and I do what makes me happy.

[Resonance]

So....some men (or this hypothetical man) assume women with short hair are lesbians but only if they are (at maximum) moderately attractive? Any more attractive than that and they are simply out of their league and the state of being out of their league trumps the possibility of being a lesbian (in their mind)?
They can be more than moderately attractive, I think. Momidoll just has that kind of 'superstar' look about her. You know?

But that's basically the theory. It explains the behaviour listed in this thread anyway.

[HoneyCyclical]

If I had to rationalize my attraction, I'd say the willingness to defy social conventions (women should be feminine -> women should maintain long hair) correlates with a ability to think independently which makes a person interesting.

That makes sense. Though I wouldn't say that a person acting in defiance of social conventions necessarily guarantees that they think independently and/or makes them interesting (a handful of examples come to mind immediately) but the correlation is always possible. I assumed you simply had a preference for that particular aesthetic based on your choice of the word "seem" instead of "are".

Edit: Just wanted to clarify that when I said "that makes sense" I meant that makes sense that you think/believe that, not that I agree.


They can be more than moderately attractive, I think. Momidoll just has that kind of 'superstar' look about her. You know?

But that's basically the theory. It explains the behaviour listed in this thread anyway.

Yep. I was just riding your thought train to the end of the line.

[Scarlett letters]

I had some comments but b2b beat me to them almost word for word.

I did have a hair/lezo experience a few months ago. I mentioned that I wanted to get my hair cut and a lady I work said, "Girl, why would you want to do that? Men love long hair." It was just such a stupid question/comment I responded, "Why would that matter?" She immediately asked, "Are you gay?"
Sigh.

So because it's not a personal criteria for me to look or wear my hair in a way that I believe will receive approval and positive sexual responses from men (especially strangers) I MUST be gay. I didn't bother answering her. What would have been the point.


It has usually been women who have told me not to get my hair cut too.
But anyone who knows me even a little, would never dream of giving "because men love long hair" as a justification.
In fact it was only recently that I realized this preference to be generally true. I just don't pay much attention to what other people like, I suppose.

I find it surprising that men seem to be so uniform in their tastes. I see it as an example of the profoundly circular "sexy- son" hypothesis, in reverse. They're pretty much attracted to whatever is generally considered to be "attractive". Of course, having an attractive mate boosts a man's status amongst other men, so a common idea of "attractive" is useful currency, given their hierarchical sensibility.

I don't think women have similarly congruent aesthetics. It's not just that women place less emphasis on physical attraction - the things that they find physically attractive seem to be more divergent. Even within the same woman. We are better able to see things in context, it would seem. Whereas men seem to fixate on isolated features. I can find long hair on a man or woman attractive in one case and ridiculous in another. Men don't seem to be troubled by those distinctions, in general. Their aesthetic is simple and rule-based: Long hair = good. Short hair = bad.

I've never had the patience to grow my hair beyond shoulder length, but I had extensions once, for a giggle. I thought I looked silly, but I was astounded by the reactions I got from men.
The first time I went to wash my hair I almost fell into the bath with the sheer weight of the stuff. If you've never had long hair you can have no idea what an encumbrance it is. Getting it dry took an eternity. It kept getting in the way when I was doing anything. "Why would anyone put up with this shit?!?" was all I could think. I pulled them out before the week was up.

[bootness]

Other than the fact that you don't (presumably) inflict these associations on strangers, what makes your apparent association of long-hair with dull, uninteresting women any better than associating short hair with man-hating lesbianism?

That's just it... I don't ever say anything about it to someone else. (Except for now, I mean.) I would never verbally abuse someone over their hair cut, for goodness sake. And I don't think women with long hair are dull and uninteresting, at all. Unless they have a host of other things going on that I am admittedly predudiced against, like long fake nails, spike heels and too much perfume. And even then, I've been surprised. My OB was a woman just like that, and I have a lot of respect for her.

[esthim8]

If I had to rationalize my attraction, I'd say the willingness to defy social conventions (women should be feminine -> women should maintain long hair) correlates with a ability to think independently which makes a person interesting.

I think having a non conventional style or attitude just because it defies social convention is as stupid as having a conventional style or attitude just to fit in. The crucial part to me is that it is done in spite of social convention. Unfortunately, this property of the action isn't very visible. But, it does correlate.

[Resonance]

I think having a non conventional style or attitude just because it defies social convention is as stupid as having a conventional style or attitude just to fit in. The crucial part to me is that it is done in spite of social convention. Unfortunately, this property of the action isn't very visible. But, it does correlate.

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/dv1761032.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=91F5CCEF208281FDFB6D9F040493001A80D79D821CEA3EF194ACEAF6EBCF470CE30A760B0D811297
vs
http://www.goth-style-secrets.com/images/piercings.jpg

Sort of thing?

[bootness]

I think having a non conventional style or attitude just because it defies social convention is as stupid as having a conventional style or attitude just to fit in. The crucial part to me is that it is done in spite of social convention. Unfortunately, this property of the action isn't very visible. But, it does correlate.

People who try to be "different" because they think it is "cool" are one thing. People who are different because they aren't afraid to be is another. On the other hand, for women, shearing your hair is a very strong symbolic statement. In the 1920's, the emergence of bobbed hair (and no more corsets) symbolized a new trend towards freedom for women. In the 90's, a bald head on a woman would make a strong statement (Sinead O'Connor or Natalie Portman in V, Demi Moore in that army movie, etc.)

[atom]

I think having a non conventional style or attitude just because it defies social convention is as stupid as having a conventional style or attitude just to fit in. The crucial part to me is that it is done in spite of social convention. Unfortunately, this property of the action isn't very visible. But, it does correlate.

Agreed.

Independent thought is correlated with unconventionality.

Goths who dress up weird because its wierd are as unattractive as a bleach blonde who maintains their hair because its normal/attractive.

Putting effort into looking a certain way is silly to me but the xSFx will respond "Even no image is an image."

[Cbug]

I have long hair just coz I hate going to the hairdresser.
Am I defying convention enough with that? :p

[Scarlett letters]

That's just it... I don't ever say anything about it to someone else. (Except for now, I mean.) I would never verbally abuse someone over their hair cut, for goodness sake. And I don't think women with long hair are dull and uninteresting, at all. Unless they have a host of other things going on that I am admittedly predudiced against, like long fake nails, spike heels and too much perfume. And even then, I've been surprised. My OB was a woman just like that, and I have a lot of respect for her.

So the prejudice is fine as long as you don't express it outwardly in any way?

[atom]

I have long hair just coz I hate going to the hairdresser.
Am I defying convention enough with that? :p

I approve of your well-reasoned intentional self-expressing hair strategy.

I just shave my head for the same reason.

[Resonance]

So the prejudice is fine as long as you don't express it outwardly in any way?

Prejudice is a normal human cognitive function and it is impossible to suppress. The best solution is compensation. eg. if you're interviewing candidates for a job and some of them are of a different race than you, rather than pretending you're not racist, think extra hard to make sure you're overcoming your gut feelings about each of them.

[bootness]

So the prejudice is fine as long as you don't express it outwardly in any way?

Well, as I mentioned in my above post, I am aware of my prejudice, and I am able to rise above it. I don't think preconceived notions are a great way of looking at the world, no. And I'm open minded enough to concede that I can be wrong, on a knee-jerk reaction.

Edit: Oh, did I just say I could be wrong??? I wish my husband could see that. He'd probably faint.

[Zelda]

as unattractive as a bleach blonde who maintains their hair because its normal/attractive.

What's it to you how a woman chooses to maintain her hair? lol So a woman has to have a certain hairstyle in order for you to find her attractive? Talk about shallow.

This whole thread is predictably turning into a "what do men appreciate in a woman's appearance" thread. Total BS because it's really nobodies business but the person who chooses to wear the hairstyle.

Personally, I prefer my hair long and highlighted. After years of playing with alternatives, it's a flattering look on me and is actually much more low-maintenance than short hair.

As for the OP, not much to say but people are pretty much retarded if they're going to judge a person based on their haircut.

[Scarlett letters]

Well, as I mentioned in my above post, I am aware of my prejudice, and I am able to rise above it. I don't think preconceived notions are a great way of looking at the world, no. And I'm open minded enough to concede that I can be wrong, on a knee-jerk reaction.


I understand that. But your initial rant was about how you want people to look beyond the choices that you make (to stand out), despite the fact that you find it hard to look beyond theirs (to fit in).

[Cbug]

Total BS because it's really nobodies business but the person who chooses to wear the hairstyle.

It shouldn't be anyone's business - it's their hair. But our appearance is also used to communicate who we are in a social context. The symbolism is often chosen for us. So if we want to accurately tell others what type of person we are, we have to be aware of the language first.

[Resonance]

is actually much more low-maintenance than short hair.
WHAT how

[atom]

What's it to you how a woman chooses to maintain her hair? lol So a woman has to have a certain hairstyle in order for you to find her attractive? Talk about shallow.

...


You're not my type.

[Scarlett letters]

WHAT how

She probably means that short hair requires more frequent cutting/trips to the hairdresser.

I think long straight hair is probably quite easy to look after, but long curly hair is a nightmare.
Of course, short curly hair is a nightmare too.

[Zelda]

It shouldn't be anyone's business - it's their hair. But our appearance is also used to communicate who we are in a social context. The symbolism is often chosen for us. So if we want to accurately tell others what type of person we are, we have to be aware of the language first.

I'm aware of this, but if people weren't so shallow and actually didn't judge others by something so minor and insignificant as a hairstyle, then perhaps there would be no "social context" or "symbolism" involved. Personally, I could care less how other people style their hair.


WHAT how

I have poker straight hair that has no frizz. Wash, brush, and go, with highlights every couple of months and the rare cut. With short hair (for me), all kinds of products, regular cuts and excessive time is used in styling it.

[avolkiteshvara]

Personally, I prefer my hair long and highlighted. After years of playing with alternatives, it's a flattering look on me and is actually much more low-maintenance than short hair.

You're lucky. Most guys love that type of haircut.

[bootness]

I understand that. But your initial rant was about how you want people to look beyond the choices that you make (to stand out), despite the fact that you find it hard to look beyond theirs (to fit in).

No, my initial rant was how stupid I think it is that someone who was a Dean of Law at Harvard should be judged by her appearance rather than by her skills, when being considered for the Supreme Court. I then extrapolated this to my own experience of being misjudged by people. And, I don't find it hard to look beyond the choices of others. I actually like to do it. I am flexible. I wish more people were.

I do not keep my hair short to stand out. I just like it that way. I honestly (in person) prefer to be ignored. When I had long, blonde hair (natural) in high school, it took me 2 hours every morning to deal with it. And people would yell at me out of cars then too, but usually it was along the lines of "nice ass," "nice tits," or "woohoo." Then I cut it short and dyed it black in college, because I thought it looked nice and suited my personality better. Then I got the negative attention. Can't win for losing I guess.

[Scarlett letters]

No, my initial rant was how stupid I think it is that someone who was a Dean of Law at Harvard should be judged by her appearance rather than by her skills, when being considered for the Supreme Court. I then extrapolated this to my own experience of being misjudged by people. And, I don't find it hard to look beyond the choices of others. I actually like to do it. I am flexible. I wish more people were.

I do not keep my hair short to stand out. I just like it that way. I honestly (in person) prefer to be ignored. When I had long, blonde hair (natural) in high school, it took me 2 hours every morning to deal with it. And people would yell at me out of cars then too, but usually it was along the lines of "nice ass," "nice tits," or "woohoo." Then I cut it short and dyed it black in college, because I thought it looked nice and suited my personality better. Then I got the negative attention. Can't win for losing I guess.
I didn't mean you make choices in order to stand out so much as that you make choices which happen to make you stand out (because you find them to have compensating benefits).

I just didn't find your argument very compelling. "People with long hair are ok as long as they also don't have fake nails, wear stilettos, etc etc".
You see that it all comes down to the same thing, right? Stereotyping is impossible to avoid because of the way human cognition works.
You pays your money.

[stuck]

I don't think women have similarly congruent aesthetics. It's not just that women place less emphasis on physical attraction - the things that they find physically attractive seem to be more divergent. Even within the same woman. We are better able to see things in context, it would seem.

Broad shoulders, muscular ass, deep voice.

I find women to be knocked stupid by these things just like men are about boobs, butt, eyes, lips. The difference seems to be that women are overall less concerned with physical attraction. I imagine this is because of the power gap between women and men- for better or worse, men can be uglier, fatter, and less likable and still maintain power. Ugliness, obesity, lack of personality- these things are less likely to be forgiven in women.

[Scarlett letters]

Broad shoulders, muscular ass, deep voice.

I find women to be knocked stupid by these things just like men are about boobs, butt, eyes, lips. The difference seems to be that women are overall less concerned with physical attraction. I imagine this is because of the power gap between women and men- for better or worse, men can be uglier, fatter, and less likable and still maintain power. Ugliness, obesity, lack of personality- these things are less likely to be forgiven in women.

I thought someone would say that. Your argument about the 'power gap' is circular though.

Maybe I just don't see the world as others do. When I look at a person, I see the whole, not a sum of parts. And I find it impossible to come up with a formula for "attractiveness".

[bootness]

I just didn't find your argument very compelling. "People with long hair are ok as long as they also don't have fake nails, wear stilettos, etc etc".
You see that it all comes down to the same thing, right? Stereotyping is impossible to avoid because of the way human cognition works.

Probably because, that's not my argument.
I was admitting my own personal stereotypes, not saying I think they are a necessarily a right or a good thing. They just are. You are seeing an argument where one does not exist. I think we are pretty much in agreement, really. It's hard not to stereotype.

However, I still think it sucks. Even when I do it.

[Zelda]

I imagine this is because of the power gap between women and men- for better or worse, men can be uglier, fatter, and less likable and still maintain power. Ugliness, obesity, lack of personality- these things are less likely to be forgiven in women.

Which basically proves there is still a long way to go in the fight against sexism. However, people like atom (the S types of this world) certainly don't make the fight any easier for women by holding them to specific standards of physical beauty.

[stuck]

I thought someone would say that. Your argument about the 'power gap' is circular though.

Maybe I just don't see the world as others do. When I look at a person, I see the whole, not a sum of parts. And I find it impossible to come up with a formula for "attractiveness".

I think the situation is circular, a feedback mechanism that keeps the status quo farting along. Is this different from what you mean?

I agree with you, personally. I enjoy seeing people as a gestalt. It's sexier.

oh! and I forgot the biggest power gap of all- AGE. Age in a man can be sexy, whereas in a woman it cannot. I think this is probably the biggest problem for feminism in a capitalist system, because of the nature of compound interest. People are simply more able to wield power (money) as they are older.

[Scarlett letters]

I think the situation is circular, a feedback mechanism that keeps the status quo farting along. Is this different from what you mean?

The difference seems to be that women are overall less concerned with physical attraction. I imagine this is because of the power gap between women and men- for better or worse, men can be uglier, fatter, and less likable and still maintain power.
Women are less concerned about looks because women are less concerned about looks.
Is how that reads to me.


oh! and I forgot the biggest power gap of all- AGE. Age in a man can be sexy, whereas in a woman it cannot. I think this is probably the biggest problem for feminism in a capitalist system, because of the nature of compound interest. People are simply more able to wield power (money) as they are older.The biggest problem for feminists is that we aren't sexy as we age?
If only that were true.

[atom]

Which basically proves there is still a long way to go in the fight against sexism. However, people like atom (the S types of this world) certainly don't make the fight any easier for women by holding them to specific standards of physical beauty.

Let's not shit up the thread that you didn't bother to read for comprehension.

I offer you: LOL and :rollseyes:

[Zelda]

Let's not shit up the thread you didn't bother to read for comprehension.

I offer you: LOL and :rollseyes:

The truth hurts, doesn't it. :smooch:

[stuck]

Women are less concerned about looks because women are less concerned about looks.
Is how that reads to me.

No, that's not what I meant. I think there are two components to a societally arbitrated entity of "attraction". One is the natural- good skin, fulsome breasts, strong thrusting ass. I think both sexes are susceptible to attraction to these things-it's our biology. The other, which seems to be a construct of civilization, is power. Men are more likely to hold power- divorced as it is from the natural hallmarks of sexuality.

Any appraisal of a gender difference in visual appreciation of sexuality would have to take this into consideration.



The biggest problem for feminists is that we aren't sexy as we age?
If only that were true.

"Diminished sexiness" is a symptom of the problem to which I was referring. Simply stated, the bigger problem is that aging is acceptable in men and not in women. I did not state this clearly enough.

[Scarlett letters]

No, that's not what I meant. I think there are two components to a societally arbitrated entity of "attraction". One is the natural- good skin, fulsome breasts, strong thrusting ass. I think both sexes are susceptible to attraction to these things-it's our biology. The other, which seems to be a construct of civilization, is power. Men are more likely to hold power- divorced as it is from the natural hallmarks of sexuality.

"Diminished sexiness" is a symptom of the problem to which I was referring. Simply stated, the bigger problem is that aging is acceptable in men and not in women. I did not state this clearly enough.

That isn't the problem, just a symptom of it. (According to your argument) the problem is that the only "power" women have access to is how attractive they are to the gender that has power. This is something they really don't have much control over, (genetics, environment and the passage of time intervene) therefore it isn't real power. It's commodification.

[qualia]

That isn't the problem, just a symptom of it. (According to your argument) the problem is that the only "power" women have access to is how attractive they are to the gender that has power. This is something they really don't have much control over, (genetics, environment and the passage of time intervene) therefore it isn't real power. It's commodification.We do have control over it. In the same way a young man can't really help that he'll lose his strength as he ages, he can still buy and sell his services and use it to get what he wants.

Women can do the same with bein sexy. We do have some control over how it's used. Unfortunately, yes, we don't have as much access to other avenues of power as we age. I don't think this is a problem of beauty, though, since everyone benefits from being young and good looking regardless of sex. I think it's a problem of everything else.

[esthim8]

This thread took an unexpected turn when Zelda got offended at blasted it with piss. Most of it went over Atom, so it's ok.

[Delilah]

This thread took an unexpected turn when Zelda got offended at blasted it with piss. Most of it went over Atom, so it's ok.

You're killin' me, smalls, you're killin' me.

[digesthisickness]

This thread took an unexpected turn when Zelda got offended at blasted it with piss.

number of that post, please.

[stuck]

That isn't the problem, just a symptom of it. (According to your argument) the problem is that the only "power" women have access to is how attractive they are to the gender that has power. This is something they really don't have much control over, (genetics, environment and the passage of time intervene) therefore it isn't real power. It's commodification.

I agree with this.

Actually, we can see commodification filling in some of the gaps as the patriarchy loses its grip ever so slightly. At the sexual frontiers- strip clubs where rabid packs of grandmothers get together and lick whipped cream from young muscled studs, and pornography, where straight men are enlisted into gay porn- it is becoming a situation where age/money is trumping gender.

[Delilah]

Personally, I could care less how other people style their hair.

You could? I couldn't. Not even if I tried really hard.

That's not true, I kind of care about mullets.

[Scarlett letters]

I agree with this.

Actually, we can see commodification filling in some of the gaps as the patriarchy loses its grip ever so slightly. At the sexual frontiers- strip clubs where rabid packs of grandmothers get together and lick whipped cream from young muscled studs, and pornography, where straight men are enlisted into gay porn- it is becoming a situation where age/money is trumping gender.

I don't know much about sexy grandmothers - but the dollar is King so no surprises there - but how is gay porn an example of a retreating patriarchy?

[Zelda]

You could? I couldn't. Not even if I tried really hard.

That's not true, I kind of care about mullets.

:lol: Mullets don't bother me...I see them pretty much everywhere if I travel 2 hours in either direction of the city.

[digesthisickness]

number of that post, please.

nevermind, read the thread. but, thanks to all who rushed in to help me out as i'm sure there were many.

[stuck]

I don't know much about sexy grandmothers - but the dollar is King so no surprises there - but how is gay porn an example of a retreating patriarchy?

Homosexuality is anathema to protestant culture, which is hopelessly intertwined with the current patriarchy. Capitalism, which says "I will give you whatever you want for a price," adapts to any situation where it can make a buck. These things are thrown up in the air and allowed to fall in profitable arrangements. It simply doesn't care, and outmoded unprofitable arrangements are simply forgotten.

Like you say, the dollar is King. It would be Queen, too, without much protest. Drag queen, even.

[Scarlett letters]

Homosexuality is anathema to protestant culture, which is hopelessly intertwined with the current patriarchy. Capitalism, which says "I will give you whatever you want for a price," adapts to any situation where it can make a buck. These things are thrown up in the air and allowed to fall in profitable arrangements. It simply doesn't care, and outmoded unprofitable arrangements are simply forgotten.

Like you say, the dollar is King. It would be Queen, too, without much protest. Drag queen, even.

Without much protest? I don't know about that. Certainly not without a backlash, at any rate.

Patriarchy precedes protestantism. What you describe is the fall of the latter, not the former.

[MadamI'madaM]

In the midst of a shitpile of loaded mumbo jumbo, I think we've lost sight of the fact that bootness may actually "look like a lesbian" (if one accepts the idea that this abbreviation of reality can have some concrete meaning divorced from actual sexuality) and thus be a special case of "smart women with short hair".

If you're an overweight man with a buzz cut who wears a khaki jumpsuit and a utility belt, people might ask how much you charge to snake out their drains. (not that this justifies calling someone like bootness a lesbian as if it's a bad thing)

[stuck]

Without much protest? I don't know about that. Certainly not without a backlash, at any rate.

Patriarchy precedes protestantism. What you describe is the fall of the latter, not the former.

The backlash wouldn't be from capitalism, which is currently in charge of the entire world from miley cyrus to the polar ice caps.

Patriarchy adapted to protestantism in a situation where both were changed. If protestantism falls, it takes some of the patriarchy with it. The patriarchy will try to jump ship to whatever else is out there, but may find itself competing with feminism. Like I said, capitalism doesn't really care, and it tends to take whatever is "moving units" without regard to tradition.

[stuck]

In the midst of a shitpile of loaded mumbo jumbo, I think we've lost sight of the fact that bootness may actually "look like a lesbian" (if one accepts the idea that this abbreviation of reality can have some concrete meaning divorced from actual sexuality) and thus be a special case of "smart women with short hair".

If you're an overweight man with a buzz cut who wears a khaki jumpsuit and a utility belt, people might ask how much you charge to snake out their drains. (not that this justifies calling someone like bootness a lesbian as if it's a bad thing)

Yeah, and forgive me for going down to the race track and slapping the cock out of your mouth- you just looked like you wanted it.

[MadamI'madaM]

Yeah, and forgive me for going down to the race track and slapping the cock out of your mouth- you just looked like you wanted it.

Sorry, but you're not above stereotypes, and the more completely you fill out the criteria for any given one, the more you can expect to be lumped in.

Calling someone a lesbian or bluntly asking is not something that I imagine happens often to every woman with short hair.

[Scarlett letters]

The backlash wouldn't be from capitalism, which is currently in charge of the entire world from miley cyrus to the polar ice caps.Of course not. A dollar's a dollar.
It would be from TPTB who want to keep as many of those dollars as possible.


Patriarchy adapted to protestantism in a situation where both were changed. If protestantism falls, it takes some of the patriarchy with it. The patriarchy will try to jump ship to whatever else is out there, but may find itself competing with feminism. Like I said, capitalism doesn't really care, and it tends to take whatever is "moving units" without regard to tradition.

I thing you are taking a very narrow view. Protestantism (and Catholicism and Islam and Judaism...ad nauseum) prop up the patriarchy. If one falls, they just find another prop.

[stuck]

I thing you are taking a very narrow view. Protestantism (and Catholicism and Islam and Judaism...ad nauseum) prop up the patriarchy. If one falls, they just find another prop.

I purposefully limited the scope of the argument, yes, to highlight one religion against capitalism. Again, I agree with you. The nuance here is that I think capitalism is qualitatively different from all religions. It's modular.

[bootness]

In the midst of a shitpile of loaded mumbo jumbo, I think we've lost sight of the fact that bootness may actually "look like a lesbian" (if one accepts the idea that this abbreviation of reality can have some concrete meaning divorced from actual sexuality) and thus be a special case of "smart women with short hair".


This is probably entirely subjective. I've been harrassed as a spic too, and I'm a pale caucasian. Some folks see what they want to see.

Current (growing out.) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/91813042@N00/4607287472)
Shortest (most usual.) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/91813042@N00/4607287444/)
90's, when I got the most drive by abuse (http://www.flickr.com/photos/91813042@N00/4607287432/).

Forgive the links, but I can't get the image uploader to work.

[MadamI'madaM]

This is probably entirely subjective. I've been harrassed as a spic too, and I'm a pale caucasian. Some folks see what they want to see.

Current (growing out.) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/91813042@N00/4607287472)
Shortest (most usual.) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/91813042@N00/4607287444/)
90's, when I got the most drive by abuse (http://www.flickr.com/photos/91813042@N00/4607287432/).

Forgive the links, but I can't get the image uploader to work.

Okay, so you aren't exactly the epicenter of the lesbian stereotype.

In that case, [what they said].

Was the racial discrimination in person? My dad has a Spanish first name and has claimed that he's been treated differently where people hadn't had a good look at him (being pulled over, on the telephone, etc.).

[bootness]

Okay, so you aren't exactly the epicenter of the lesbian stereotype.

In that case, [what they said].

Was the racial discrimination in person? My dad has a Spanish first name and has claimed that he's been treated differently where people hadn't had a good look at him (being pulled over, on the telephone, etc.).

Yes, but from a distance (with me biking quickly away.) I am assuming it was the dyed-black hair that did it.

[Scarlett letters]

It's modular.
In what sense?

[stigmatica]

Yes, but from a distance (with me biking quickly away.) I am assuming it was the dyed-black hair that did it.
Well, I look at it this way. You can't change the world in a day, but you do have to live in it. Your experiences prove that your current look can be taken as lesbian, and can cause you some bias and grief. Weigh the pros and cons, and live with whichever look gives you the most pros.

It's like my shaved head experience.

Pros
- I liked the look
- Cool in the summer
- No hair to have to mess with

Cons
- Mistaken for a skinhead
- Easy to cut my head when bumping
- Cold in the winter
- Shaving it's a pain in the ass

Easy decision. What would your lists look like? :D

[MadamI'madaM]

Yes, but from a distance (with me biking quickly away.) I am assuming it was the dyed-black hair that did it.

Do you live in the boonies?

People might just have small town cabin fever.

That's pretty rabid, and implies that hispanic people are uncommon where you live, which is actually pretty uncommon.

[qualia]

I've always been suspicious of gender feminism because it has an undefeatable all-powerful enemy that permeates every system of power, and our only hope of combating it is taking down every power hierarchy in existence while also being a gender feminist.

It sounds like a great Dan Brown novel and bad political theory.

[stuck]

In what sense?

It's an abstraction overlaid on society, requiring only a currency to function. Religions are linked to specific people and language. The proof is that capitalism existed before its chief messiahs (I'm gonna say Adam Smith and Karl Marx, but I plead ignorance) described its functioning. Christianity didn't exist before Christ. You could say that monotheism did, but monotheism doesn't scale in the same way as capitalism does. It becomes inextricably linked to the culture that defines its current instance.

The last two sentences are certainly open to debate, I'm not sure exactly how I feel about them, tbh.

[bootness]

Easy decision. What would your lists look like? :D
Short hair, Pros:
Easy to do: wash & go
Doesn't get in my face
Doesn't get stuck in things
I dye my hair often, different colors, this keeps it healthier
I like how it looks
Baby can't pull on it too hard

Cons:
I like things like braids, barrettes, hair sticks, putting things like fake flowers or beads & stuff in my hair, and I can't do that now
Being verbally harrassed by idiots

Hm. The point is moot for me, I've been growing it out and not dying it for a while since I had the baby. No time.

[bootness]

Do you live in the boonies?

People might just have small town cabin fever.

That's pretty rabid, and implies that hispanic people are uncommon where you live, which is actually pretty uncommon.

Nope, college town, medium size. With the spic thing, once it was a pickup full of frat-looking dudes, and then one guy in a sports car who was in line with me for a while at a cash machine. We have a lot of Latinos here actually. I still don't get it. I was a woman, alone, so I made an easy target for whatever flavor of hatred they felt like dishing out, I guess.

[Scarlett letters]

It's an abstraction overlaid on society, requiring only a currency to function. Religions are linked to specific people and language. The proof is that capitalism existed before its chief messiahs (I'm gonna say Adam Smith and Karl Marx, but I plead ignorance) described its functioning. Christianity didn't exist before Christ. You could say that monotheism did, but monotheism doesn't scale in the same way as capitalism does. It becomes inextricably linked to the culture that defines its current instance.


In what sense is Karl Marx a messiah of capitalism?

Specific religions are linked to specific people. The impulse to worship is probably as old or older than the division of labour.

But I still don't really know what this has to do with the topic...

[stuck]

In what sense is Karl Marx a messiah of capitalism?

To further pound the flaxen gold thread of the metaphor, perhaps he's the lamb come back as lion.



Specific religions are linked to specific people. The impulse to worship is probably as old or older than the division of labour.

Yes, but there is no translation of specific instances of worship, whereas you can buy yen with dollars.



But I still don't really know what this has to do with the topic...

You could always read the thread in reverse to jog your memory. Pay specific attention to who keeps asking who questions.

[Zelda]

Specific religions are linked to specific people.

A bit of a derail here, but I find the following possible correlations to be interesting: the connection between the relatively high number of prominent, modern Jewish feminists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_feminists) and the higher than average Ashkenazim intelligence and IQ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence).

[Scarlett letters]

You could always read the thread in reverse to jog your memory. Pay specific attention to who keeps asking who questions.

OK. You said that the fall of Protestantism undermines the patriarchy, but I don't see where you are drawing support for that argument from.
No need to respond if you don't want to.

[atom]

A bit of a derail here, but I find the following possible correlations to be interesting: the connection between the relatively high number of prominent, modern Jewish feminists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_feminists) and the higher than average Ashkenazim intelligence and IQ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence).

you're trolling, right?

[stuck]

OK. You said that the fall of Protestantism undermines the patriarchy, but I don't see where you are drawing support for that argument from.
No need to respond if you don't want to.

I enjoy responding. I'm saying it's silly to act confused about a derail in which you're participating.

Simply, patriarchy is invested in protestantism. If protestantism falls, the patriarchy loses this investment. It has others and will survive, but it's not an ideal situation. That's all. I'm not saying how crucial this alliance is, just noting its existence.

[Delilah]

:lol: Mullets don't bother me...I see them pretty much everywhere if I travel 2 hours in either direction of the city.

I find them fascinating and frightening.

*shudder*


*touch*

[Zelda]

you're trolling, right?

No. I felt it was somewhat relevant to discussion.

Look, if you don't like my posts, please put me on ignore. You do know you have that option, right? I actually had you on ignore a month or so ago when you made an ass out of yourself and decided to freak out on Hustler and Rajah in separate threads. Go ahead and use it. Kthx.

[Scarlett letters]

I enjoy responding. I'm saying it's silly to act confused about a derail in which you're participating.

Simply, patriarchy is invested in protestantism. If protestantism falls, the patriarchy loses this investment. It has others and will survive, but it's not an ideal situation. That's all. I'm not saying how crucial this alliance is, just noting its existence.

I wasn't confused about the derail. I was confused about the path of your logic. Perhaps I should have made that clearer.
Since it is a derail, perhaps we should stop.

[stuck]

I wasn't confused about the derail. I was confused about the path of your logic. Perhaps I should have made that clearer.
Since it is a derail, perhaps we should stop.

By all means, if a perusal of my logic betrays a flaw, point it out. I am open to influence.

We could stop; or, we could keep digging until we find another lesbian-influenced haircut.

I'm holding my breath for the chelsea:

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/a54/a547489bd49b098e668742e024f62213.jpg

Chinamen? Trappist monks? who knows.

[avolkiteshvara]

By all means, if a perusal of my logic betrays a flaw, point it out. I am open to influence.

We could stop; or, we could keep digging until we find another lesbian-influenced haircut.

I'm holding my breath for the chelsea:

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/a54/a547489bd49b098e668742e024f62213.jpg

Chinamen? Trappist monks? who knows.

Oi Oi Oi

[stuck]

Oi Oi Oi

touche

[Rincon]

Egads! That's almost like a reverse mullet. Ouch.

[Resonance]

I agree with this.

Actually, we can see commodification filling in some of the gaps as the patriarchy loses its grip ever so slightly. At the sexual frontiers- strip clubs where rabid packs of grandmothers get together and lick whipped cream from young muscled studs, and pornography, where straight men are enlisted into gay porn- it is becoming a situation where age/money is trumping gender.
(un?)Surprisingly, social class and upbringing has a profound impact on how true this is.

[FineLine]

This article from newsweek sounded depressingly familiar to me. (Is Kagan a lesbian, and why should we even care?) (http://www.newsweek.com/id/237884) [...]

First off, the article that you linked in the OP points out that the loudest advocate for examining Kagan's sexuality is a gay activist--Andrew Sullivan. IOW, questions about Kagan's sexuality aren't necessarily or primarily coming from reactionaries or rednecks.

Second, I think Kagan's short hair is only part of the picture. As important (or perhaps more important) to a perception of gayness would be the fact that she's single. There's an old saying in politics that it's difficult for single people to get elected. Voters see the "family man" or "family woman" as reliable and familiar; divorcees are perceived as flighty and unreliable; as for the never-married, there was traditionally a subtextual worry that they might turn out to be gay. Of course, perceptions change over time. Nowadays, perhaps the subtextual worry is turning into an outright accusation, an outing by Andrew Sullivan that serves as a litmus test to see how the population will react to the idea of gay public officials at the national level.

As for your own hairstyle, personally I would say that the style of the cut may lend itself to comment as much (or perhaps more) than the length of the cut. Maybe it's a boomer perception on my part, but I see your hairstyle as kind of cosmopolitan/Liza Minnelli/artsy/intellectual. Inside the pinhead of a Northwest redneck, that may translate into "lesbian." By comparison, Kagan's hair style looks much more neutral, more like an average bourgeois hausfrau who can't be bothered to mess with her hair.

My little sister had that same cut as yours when she was an lesbian artist living and working in New York City about 10-15 years ago. Of course the look didn't even raise an eyebrow in NYC. Nowadays, on the other hand, she is living in a northern Vermont hippy town still with the same haircut, and she looks wildly out of place--way too cosmopolitan for the local denim-and-frizzy-hair crowd. She has said in the past that she gets comments about her "artsy look," but I guess she prefers it that way. She likes living in the boonies, but she doesn't want people thinking that she is "from there"; she still wants to maintain the NYC artist community connection. However, I don't know if she has specifically ever gotten any catcalls or abuse from the local hicks since moving to Vermont.

I don't know if any similar considerations pertains to your own situation. Just thought I would throw it out there.

On the other hand, I have no idea why someone would view you as Hispanic based on your haircut. You said something about covering up tattoos in your OP. Maybe those couple of individuals were responding to cues other than just your hair style/length.

[atom]

No. I felt it was somewhat relevant to discussion.

Look, if you don't like my posts, please put me on ignore. You do know you have that option, right? I actually had you on ignore a month or so ago when you made an ass out of yourself and decided to freak out on Hustler and Rajah in separate threads. Go ahead and use it. Kthx.

I've never had an arch enemy before...

Will you be my nemesis?

[bootness]

First off, the article that you linked in the OP points out that the loudest advocate for examining Kagan's sexuality is a gay activist--Andrew Sullivan. IOW, questions about Kagan's sexuality aren't necessarily or primarily coming from reactionaries or rednecks.

On the other hand, I have no idea why someone would view you as Hispanic based on your haircut. You said something about covering up tattoos in your OP. Maybe those couple of individuals were responding to cues other than just your hair style/length.

Good point about the "outing" attempt. If she is gay, and pretending to be straight, I could see some attention being paid to it, simply because you want her to be honest. I could see where gay activists would be interested in having a prominent public figure admitting that they are gay, even though it might risk alienating conservatives. However, outing a public figure, in my opinion, should be saved for people whose anti-gay policies are in direct opposition to their own homosexuality... liar/hypocrites. If you are gay and want to keep your private life private, that is fine with me. However, I guess if she is actually gay, my rant is not as relevant. I always naively take people at their word. It does not always serve me well.

As far as looking Latino, with my dyed-black hair, and penchant for flannel, I suppose someone could mistake me for that. If they needed glasses. I still don't really get that one. My tattoos are pretty tame, just curly vines up my right arm, and siva nataraja on my left calf. I don't have the Maria de Guadelupe or anything, although now that I think of it, that would be pretty cool.

[Curtis24]

I think there are also a number of self-centered dickheads who believe

Doesn't want to/ care about being attractive to me ---> Dyke

No matter what sex she actually is attracted to.

This was basically my argument, that at least significant numbers of men do believe "Doesn't want to/ care about being attractive to me ---> Dyke". Of course, the degree to which men actually do associate short hair with dykekness is debatable. But the OP makes the assumption that a lot of men do assume that, so I just went from there. Though the more I argue this, the less certain I am that that's the case, especially in current times.

[bootness]

Of course, the degree to which men actually do associate short hair with dykekness is debatable. But the OP makes the assumption that a lot of men do assume that, so I just went from there. Though the more I argue this, the less certain I am that that's the case, especially in current times.

Maybe just the ones who tend to yell out of pickups, or who would want to say abusive things to a complete stranger. Luckily, that is a small percentage of the actual male population. They are just vocal, so they stand out in my mind.

[FineLine]

Good point about the "outing" attempt. If she is gay, and pretending to be straight, I could see some attention being paid to it, simply because you want her to be honest. I could see where gay activists would be interested in having a prominent public figure admitting that they are gay, even though it might risk alienating conservatives. However, outing a public figure, in my opinion, should be saved for people whose anti-gay policies are in direct opposition to their own homosexuality... liar/hypocrites. If you are gay and want to keep your private life private, that is fine with me. However, I guess if she is actually gay, my rant is not as relevant. I always naively take people at their word. It does not always serve me well.

As far as looking Latino, with my dyed-black hair, and penchant for flannel, I suppose someone could mistake me for that. If they needed glasses. I still don't really get that one. My tattoos are pretty tame, just curly vines up my right arm, and siva nataraja on my left calf. I don't have the Maria de Guadelupe or anything, although now that I think of it, that would be pretty cool.

No problem. I think your basic premise is still valid: that sexuality is still controversial (i.e., the hubbub surrounding Kagan's orientation), to the point that it even becomes a weapon to be used against individuals who stand out (i.e., rednecks calling it out as an insult).

Your tattoos sound innocuous. I was wondering if they looked like gang tattoos or something from a distance. Sounds like they don't. :-)

[2hype]

Nope, college town, medium size. With the spic thing, once it was a pickup full of frat-looking dudes, and then one guy in a sports car who was in line with me for a while at a cash machine. We have a lot of Latinos here actually. I still don't get it. I was a woman, alone, so I made an easy target for whatever flavor of hatred they felt like dishing out, I guess.

Frat guys in groups are notoriously stupid.

I've frequently had hair shorter than you, and have had situations where people question whether I'm straight or not. But only when my hair has been short. I don't remember anybody questioning it when my hair has been long. And sometimes cashiers will call me "sir" when I have short hair. It's quite strange as I'm pretty sure I don't look like a guy. People are weird. That's all I can say.

[MacGuffin]

Women look better with long hair.

[jyng1]

Women look better with long hair.

Short, long... sounds like a choice to me. The freedom to choose... oooh luxury!!! He says enviously.

[MacGuffin]

Short, long... sounds like a choice to me. The freedom to choose... oooh luxury!!! He says enviously.

Yes, I don't. :sadbanana:

Ever watch a woman take her hair down? :grin:

[Senka]

Women look better with long hair.

Everything straight women do should revolve around the question, "will men think I look attractive if I do this?". Their haircut should take into consideration what others will think of them.

Anyway everyone knows girls are pink and come with long hair and dresses, boys are blue and keep their hair short. Variations from that must be linked to alternate sexualities.

[MacGuffin]

Everything straight women do should revolve around the question, "will men think I look attractive if I do this?". Their haircut should take into consideration what others will think of them.

Finally!

Note to women: we don't give a damn about shoes.

[ACow]

Look, its quite clear that there is a physical substance of sexuality physically contained IN hair. Excess amounts of this creates female sexuality, whom crave men, and lesser amounts of it create men, whom crave women. (Naturally, this applies only to hair on the head).

Thus, nice hetero women have long flowing hair and are full of FEMALE SEXUALITY. Men, who are low on FEMALE SEXUALITY and thus MANLY!!!! all have short hair. As a female cuts her head hair, she clearly becomes more manly, and if she goes far enough will start to crave women, just like men do.

Simultaneously, all men with long hair become full of female sexuality who want it bad from men. This is why hippys are all homosexual wusses (like women).

This also explains why, when I shaved my own head, females would not dare to approach me. I had become so manly and potent that they could not bare to be in my presence, for fear of becoming pregnant on sight. All had the knowlege they would involuntarily rip their clothes off and thrust themselves upon me (submissively, of course) if they stepped within my "field of attraction". Thus, they keep away universally.

[MacGuffin]

Shave your head and impregnate wemon with your dumb eyelook.

[Ghost-Girl]

Oh shit! I just realized Ghost-Girl cut her hair short!
My girlfriend thinks it's hot.

[MacGuffin]

My girlfriend thinks it's hot.

:ph34r: