drugs and god

[euterpenc]

WP: Because it often leads to judgements and an ever more defined sense of seperation. How do you know that some crosses are heavier than others? Do you mean purely in terms of coping with survival on this realm, or are you talking about the spirit/soul? If the latter, how do you (looking from the outside, so to speak) decide who's cross is heavier?

DF: Good point. I guess I kind of contradicted myself. I shoud probably say that it 'seems' from my perspective that some people get stuck with a much more unfortunate situation for survival on this realm than others. I simply can't say much about spirit/soul because I think rationality ceases to exist on that level.

WP: Sure one can come at it rationally. "I am experiencing anguish. My use of fill in the blank has not provided lasting relief. What's left?" God. There's your decision. And actually for me, I made up my own prayer(s). I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this, but God is our birthright. It's not just for those of us that can stare at Alex's
cool third eye up there.

Suppose that "fill in the blank" was a drug or drugs. His solution was God. What if you're using drugs to find God? Is that possible?

[coffeezombie]

Suppose that "fill in the blank" was a drug or drugs. His solution was God. What if you're using drugs to find God? Is that possible?

I don't think so, but I think many INTPs might believe that they can because then they are actually able to sense the presence of a God, something that other people can do sober normally in real life but that INTPs have a problem with experiencing.

[euterpenc]

Suppose god is an internal experience as well

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Drugs to find "God"? I'd give a resounding: YES

Shamanism. Mans first religions used psychoactive plants to contact their Gods. Personally, I think it's extremely suggestible to think the very idea of "Gods/Godesses" were directly influenced by drugs. There are still cultures that use plants in this way, namely Native Americans and Amazonians. Each culture is basically a drug culture. Western Culture uses the sacrament of Alcohol. Hell, if we didn't have this drug in use, we probably would have died out: People were so ashamed of their sexuality we probably would have never breed.

And even still, Western religions borrow very heavily from other religions, namely psychedelic cultures. This is why we have so many stories about amazing visions and supernatural events, but they never seem to occur anymore. We're missing the right sacrament.

This is fun to think about:

Christmas - Based heavily on Siberian Shamanism which used the Amanita Muscaria (Red with white spots). This mushroom grows in very cold climates, typically near Pine Trees. Reindeer are very fond of this mushroom and will literally attack someone trying to take them. Can you see the relationship between this and how we celebrate Christmas, even today? Pine trees, flying reindeer, snow, red/white - shit, elves that make toys for the children of the world in an invisible workshop?

http://www.mykoweb.com/CAF/photos/Amanita_muscaria(tfl-c0229-35).jpg

[coffeezombie]

Mythology = Drugs is an interesting theory. I wonder how seriously it is taken in the academic world.

[euterpenc]

Mythology = Drugs is an interesting theory. I wonder how seriously it is taken in the academic world.

Nowadays, probably not well. Previously, possibly. Academics these days seem to structured, and by the book.

[nBT]

i dont understand: what is so important about the fact that you define god. regardless of the tools u use. what if you found god, then what. if by this argument you come to the conclusion that you are still looking for a god. ...

[Sir Isaac Lime]

How would know "God" if you found him?

[Sir Isaac Lime]

I wouldn't say "Mythology=drugs".

A) "Gods" house themselves in various realms of the felt human experience.
B ) These experiences are felt relative to ones frequency on the perceptive dial
C) Cultures influence "right" frequencies in their inhabitants based on subjective ideals (religion)
D) Drugs are the oldest and most effective ways of altering frequency
E) Modern religions borrow from cultures that have used drugs to this means.

Every God/Godess that has ever lived is *still* here. All you have to do is tune into the right frequency. This is what ritualism, doctrine, and faith aim to do. To place one in a specific perceptive mode relative to a religious ideal.

[coffeezombie]

How can you say that you experience "gods" with drugs when you experience so much crap too. What makes you think that these "gods" are not just more garbage based upon wishful thinking that we create in our minds when using drugs?

[euterpenc]

How can you say that you experience "gods" with drugs when you experience so much crap too. What makes you think that these "gods" are not just more garbage based upon wishful thinking that we create in our minds when using drugs?

Not "gods," God. Get it straight.

[Xenophon]

Jung spent most of his later life studying the symbolic images that appear over and over again in mythologies all over the world. It is fairly evident that mythological gods are conscious manifestations of evolved attributes of the human mind. However these symbols are not available to us in our everyday lives, where our survival is dependant on our awareness of our external environment and our ability to do quick analytical reasoning.

I think that drugs can be broken down into two categories (keep in mind that I am speaking from fairly limited experience here), but I think there are those that break down external barriers (Alchohol, Ecstasy?, Cocaine?) and those that break down internal barriers (Marijuana, Shrooms, Acid). I think that those that break down internal barriers have a far greater chance of connecting you with god, as they will give you a new perspective on your psyche.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

ZeitGeist - But which God? Who or what exactly are you referring to?


How can you say that you experience "gods" with drugs when you experience so much crap too. What makes you think that these "gods" are not just more garbage based upon wishful thinking that we create in our minds when using drugs?

DMT, found in thousands of plants and used among the indigenous, is also produced naturally inside of the human brain. It has a very specific use whether we understand the application or not. If it's just poison or "crap" then why does the brain create it endogenously?

And we're not talking about me here, we're talking about the cultures that have been using them for thousands of years.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Jung spent most of his later life studying the symbolic images that appear over and over again in mythologies all over the world. It is fairly evident that mythological gods are conscious manifestations of evolved attributes of the human mind. However these symbols are not available to us in our everyday lives, where our survival is dependant on our awareness of our external environment and our ability to do quick analytical reasoning.

Very much agreed. I'm going a step further to suggest that this concious evolution is directly linked to early mans use of hallucinogenic plants. We certainly know man employed heavy use of them during the same time as this concious evolution. Furthermore the experiences presented can be attributed with being bombarded with symbols and archetypes, an inclination to observe pattern or unity in the universe, followed by a deep self-analysis.


I think that drugs can be broken down into two categories (keep in mind that I am speaking from fairly limited experience here), but I think there are those that break down external barriers (Alchohol, Ecstasy?, Cocaine?) and those that break down internal barriers (Marijuana, Shrooms, Acid). I think that those that break down internal barriers have a far greater chance of connecting you with god, as they will give you a new perspective on your psyche.

Latent inhibition is the process which the mind removes things it biologically and culturally defines as "unneeded". Focus if you will.

Alcohol and other inebriants increase latent inhibition - they remove things/possiblities/perceptions from concious attention
Psychedelics decrease latent inhibition - they add things/possiblities/perceptions to concious attention

A simple comparison of Alcohol and Marijuana can reveal that - While drunk, one adopts the attitude of "I don't know what we're doing - lets do it". While stoned on marijuana one adopts the attitude of "What are we doing? Lets ponder it."

I'm pretty much on the boat with you here, except for classifying Ecstasy in the former. I would classify it as a psychedelic - specifically it increases attention to human emotion, an entactogen or empathogen if you will.

[coffeezombie]

Alcohol and other inebriants increase latent inhibition - they remove things/possiblities/perceptions from concious attention
Psychedelics decrease latent inhibition - they add things/possiblities/perceptions to concious attention

A simple comparison of Alcohol and Marijuana can reveal that - While drunk, one adopts the attitude of "I don't know what we're doing - lets do it". While stoned on marijuana one adopts the attitude of "What are we doing? Lets ponder it."
will.

That sounds almost like "sensor drugs" versus "intuitive drugs."

[Sir Isaac Lime]

That sounds almost like "sensor drugs" versus "intuitive drugs."

Heh. Pretty much. Inutitive types tend to go for psychedelics - while the sensors side with the inebriants. The effect of the drug coorelates as well.

[euterpenc]

ZeitGeist - But which God? Who or what exactly are you referring to?



DMT, found in thousands of plants and used among the indigenous, is also produced naturally inside of the human brain. It has a very specific use whether we understand the application or not. If it's just poison or "crap" then why does the brain create it endogenously?

And we're not talking about me here, we're talking about the cultures that have been using them for thousands of years.

God is god. There are many names for God. The concept is the same.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

God is god. There are many names for God. The concept is the same.

Once again, this is why the word "God" sucks.

[Xenophon]

Heh. Pretty much. Inutitive types tend to go for psychedelics - while the sensors side with the inebriants. The effect of the drug coorelates as well.
I always assumed that was why I choose weed over alchohol 4 times out of 5. And it is also the reason why I never mix weed and alchohol anymore, it ends up dissociating you from both your sensing and intuitive powers, and you end up being completely useless.

As for historical uses of psychadelics, I was reading an interesting article on the role of the shaman in tribal society. Basically the authors argument is that Shamans would become more in touch with the basic principles of human nature through their use of psychadelics, and would not be bothered with the mundane aspects of tribal society. When the tribe was faced with some problem outside of the confines of their limited view of reality, the Shaman would be able to provide guidance, as he exists outside of that system. Basically there was always an interplay between the Chief who would be the authority of everything that was known and understood, and the Shaman who was the authority on everything that wasn't understood.

[bitter shot at organized religion]
The role of religion was initially the same as that of the shaman, however it seems that lately the church has taken a complete 180, and now claims to be the ONLY understandable reality. As can be seen by the new popes incredible attack on relativism. It seems that looking towards the unknown in todays society is becoming more and more unacceptable. I think this is a big problem, and there is a huge need in society for an institute that guides through an evolving understanding of human nature rather than hard and fast rules that are passed down from generation to generation.
[/bitter shot at organized religion]

[crofbe]

[bitter shot at organized religion]
The role of religion was initially the same as that of the shaman, however it seems that lately the church has taken a complete 180, and now claims to be the ONLY understandable reality. As can be seen by the new popes incredible attack on relativism. It seems that looking towards the unknown in todays society is becoming more and more unacceptable. I think this is a big problem, and there is a huge need in society for an institute that guides through an evolving understanding of human nature rather than hard and fast rules that are passed down from generation to generation.
[/bitter shot at organized religion]

The majority of people need organized religion. If everybody had their own god then the world would be horrible as we can imagine it.

Thinking about doing Morning Glory for LSA, anybody have experiences with that? I heard it's toxic and you throw up several hours later but it's just as potent. And it's like $1.50 at the local garden store. The only other time I've "met god" is under mj so I'm curious to see what other psychedelics will do.

[Spartan26]

I'd say no. Going straight Bible here, I think the only way to know God is through humility and obedience. I think it takes admitting dependence on God for Him to reveal Himself to you.

Some people will say 'no one can really ever know God," which I don't believe we are capable of understanding God's fullness, but I think we can get an understanding and get to know God.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Thinking about doing Morning Glory for LSA, anybody have experiences with that? I heard it's toxic and you throw up several hours later but it's just as potent. And it's like $1.50 at the local garden store. The only other time I've "met god" is under mj so I'm curious to see what other psychedelics will do.

The LSA isn't toxic, but indeed the Morning Glory does contain some nasty chemicals that cause nausea.

You're gonna need about 500 seeds, which is about 13 or so of those little packets. The experience is very similar to psilocybin mushrooms - but with some stomach problems. Grind the seeds up into a fine powder and place them in applesauce - it'll help when you vomit it up. MJ will help with the nausea.

Salvia Divinorium would be closer to a "meeting god" type of experience. I would suggest the x5 extract.

[Sally]

Where do you get Salvia Divinorium?

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Where do you get Salvia Divinorium?

You can order it over the net. Be carefull about shoddy looking sites offering amazingly cheap deals. The price per gram may seem a bit high - but one doesn't need very much. It's also not likely that one will be trying it very often. One should be interested in the extracts - specifically the x5.

www.salviasupply.com
www.iamshaman.com

I have personally confirmed both of these as valid suppliers.

[euterpenc]

You can order it over the net. Be carefull about shoddy looking sites offering amazingly cheap deals. The price per gram may seem a bit high - but one doesn't need very much. It's also not likely that one will be trying it very often. One should be interested in the extracts - specifically the x5.

www.salviasupply.com
www.iamshaman.com

I have personally confirmed both of these as valid suppliers.

What exactly does it do?

[Sir Isaac Lime]

What exactly does it do?

I can't really say.

What I can say is that it lasts about 10 minutes.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

I could give you a few brief accounts of things i've experienced with it, but every combination of words just seems lacking. Each time i've done it i've had the impression that I "almost got it" - or somehow just fell short of obtaining some piece of information from the experience that would explain it indefinatly. It's like someone pouring gold into your hand and watching it slowly slip through your fingers.

- Opening some sort of doorway to be greeted by several light eminating pixy-esquee feminine entities, who non-vocally expressed to me "WECOME! YOU'VE FINALLY MADE IT!"

- Being contacted by a feminine "queen" entity that compelled me to speak several personal situations outloud in a non-english but mutually understood language All situations were non-verbally answered through facial expressions - communicating emotive intent. Maternal and "you should know better" comforting wisdom

- Witnessing a continious and cyclic reproduction cycle of carbon copy culture archetypes (like male/female restroom door signs)- somehow originating from a Sunmaid Raisen box logo.

- Watching a series of gnome like beings walking with a sort of left/right stagger - all grumbling "nyam nyam nyam nyam nyam". Hoping to remember them I said outloud "ChucHiChildren! Shuxtamine!".

[coffeezombie]

- Watching a series of gnome like beings walking with a sort of left/right stagger - all grumbling "nyam nyam nyam nyam nyam". Hoping to remember them I said outloud "ChucHiChildren! Shuxtamine!".

Um... and that gave you more insight into the true nature of reality?

[Mr. Good Beats]

about morning glory seeds... i hear that some may have been sprayed with fertilizers and other such things i wish to avoid digesting... is this true? can it be washed off? will it even affect anything?

[Anti__F]

About Salvia, when used be sure you're not distracted.
Shut tv down, put light out.

Have a friend on the background for help if needed.
Salvia can go crazy!!!
I did read someone's experience on the net: his universe was twisting around him and he was sure if he didn't spin along, pieces were cut from him.
So he did, spinning and spinning around.
Ended up with a broken arm, broozes, cuts and a demolized room.

Salvia is like a box of choclates.....
Be careful.

[crofbe]

So my first encounter with salvia wasn't anything like what I've heard or read. I didn't see anything, instead I got thrown to the ground, and was getting smushed by something. I remember feeling really really hot too. It wasn't scary, just not expected at all.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Um... and that gave you more insight into the true nature of reality?

No, but it raised some interesting questions.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

So my first encounter with salvia wasn't anything like what I've heard or read. I didn't see anything, instead I got thrown to the ground, and was getting smushed by something. I remember feeling really really hot too. It wasn't scary, just not expected at all.

You were standing up when you smoked it?

[CoHo]

You're gonna need about 500 seeds, which is about 13 or so of those little packets. The experience is very similar to psilocybin mushrooms - but with some stomach problems. Grind the seeds up into a fine powder and place them in applesauce - it'll help when you vomit it up. MJ will help with the nausea.

Have you experienced anything visual with MG seeds? I've tried MG twice now and have experienced some interesting effects but nothing visual.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Have you experienced anything visual with MG seeds? I've tried MG twice now and have experienced some interesting effects but nothing visual.

On 500 theres a slight ebb/flow to things. The only time I had strong open eyed visuals was with a 1,000 seed tincture extracted with Naptha.

[Mr. Good Beats]

i just gave 100 seeds a whirl to gauge my response to them, and it wasn't bad. but, there was some background nausea which would be a mood killer if amplified. i've read of being able to do a cold water extraction to kill the stomach problems. anybody ever tried it? does it work?

[Sir Isaac Lime]

i just gave 100 seeds a whirl to gauge my response to them, and it wasn't bad. but, there was some background nausea which would be a mood killer if amplified. i've read of being able to do a cold water extraction to kill the stomach problems. anybody ever tried it? does it work?

How did you prepare the seeds?

Cold water extraction works, and it's easy. You do however risk losing a bit of potency. Adding some ginger will help with the naseau, as will marijuana or an OTC anti-emetic.

[CoHo]

I read (erwoid archives) that using tap water isn't a good idea to clean and that you should use bottled water. Something about the government and mind rays *slaps foil on forehead*


Naptha?

Also, I actually enjoyed the nausea because it is the reverse effect of drinking (you get sick and then you gradually get better and higher) that is a sort of cool feeling.

The thing I learned about MG seeds was that it is sort-of like a day planner, I mean the effects can last up to 8 hours n'shit so it seems to be a good idea to block off a good 1 1/2 hour where you plan to be sick (you want to plan your day around your high).

[Sir Isaac Lime]

I read (erwoid archives) that using tap water isn't a good idea to clean and that you should use bottled water. Something about the government and mind rays *slaps foil on forehead*


Naptha?

Also, I actually enjoyed the nausea because it is the reverse effect of drinking (you get sick and then you gradually get better and higher) that is a sort of cool feeling.

The thing I learned about MG seeds was that it is sort-of like a day planner, I mean the effects can last up to 8 hours n'shit so it seems to be a good idea to block off a good 1 1/2 hour where you plan to be sick (you want to plan your day around your high).

If anything, tap water would be avoided for additives that might reduce the potency of LSA. It's an inherant risk with the entire process, but it wouldn't hurt to be more cautious I suppose.

Naptha is a solvent that will basically seperate the nauseating chemicals from the psychoactive ones. Nowadays it's potentially dangerous due to additives placed in hardware store bought napthas. Before using it one should do an evaporation test on a piece of glass to see if any residue is left behind.

It's definatly a day planner, as Mescaline, LSD or mushrooms. You don't want to get yourself in a situation where you haven't slept in 28 hours, and you're still hour 2 into a 10 hour trip.

[CoHo]

Naptha, ok, I've read some other ideas as well (ethanol, methanol or something, more erwoid talk)... people got pretty hard core with trying to remove the nausea...

Have you had any luck getting rid of that effect?

I guess I don't care that much anymore about the nausea, I just would plan to work it into the next high (be prepared to watch a movie, sick, with a large bottle of water). The nice thing about the sickness is it goes away, I mean completely. So there is this constant feeling of gradually getting better and better.... kind-of nice actually

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Naptha, ok, I've read some other ideas as well (ethanol, methanol or something, more erwoid talk)... people got pretty hard core with trying to remove the nausea...

Have you had any luck getting rid of that effect?

I guess I don't care that much anymore about the nausea, I just would plan to work it into the next high (be prepared to watch a movie, sick, with a large bottle of water). The nice thing about the sickness is it goes away, I mean completely. So there is this constant feeling of gradually getting better and better.... kind-of nice actually

Vomitting was actually the highlight of the entire trip.

This thread explains a lot: http://forums.lycaeum.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=001154

[Mr. Good Beats]

How did you prepare the seeds?

crushed them up and threw em in a bottle of water. drank the water and had to chew the seed that i hadn't crushed enough.

i was wanting to vomit, but the proper environment is hard to find.