Melody

[stuck]

I've been thinking about how to write a melody lately.

This is novel to me. I've played melodic instruments for 25 years, and I've never analyzed how a proper melody is made.

Can you hear the shapes in melodies?

Take the first line in Simon and Garfunkel's "The Boxer"

"I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told. I have squandered my resistance for a pocket full of baubles, such are promises."

Upon first hearing, it sounds rambling, like a run on sentence. If you take it apart, it has many hidden symmetries and an arch structure.

-[I am just a poor boy though my] is a motif repeated by [pocket full of baubles such are]
-[seldom told] is a motif that is repeated in [have squandered] and then again in [resistance]
-[though my stor] is a motif repeated by [for a pock]
-[baubles such] is a motif repeated verbatim in [promises]

What happens in each of these cases is that the motif becomes warped (the proper word is 'sequenced') into a new scale degree, which conforms to the overarching shape. In some cases, the rhythm is warped too.

So the whole phrase is mapped out like:

[I am just a poor boy (though my] stor) y's
{seldom told.}
I {have squandered}
my {resistance}
(for a [pock) et full of |baubles such| are] |promises|

*similar brackets delineate motifs and their derivatives.
It's tough to parse, because of the density of ideas.

Look at it- it's nearly a palindrome, except for the 'tag' at the end. And yet it sounds completely fluid, like speech.

That's my rant.

[Flatchett]

Please continue.

[SensEye]

Just for fun, you should analyze the melodies in "You're So Vain" in anticipation of Melody thinking this thread is about him. ;)

[rhinosaur]

Li-da di,
Li-da di di di di di
Li-da di,
Li-da di di di di di
Da da da da di.

[bootness]

I sing that song as a lullabye to my kiddos. Also "Don't let it get you down" by Neil Young. Sometimes I dread when they got old enough to understand the somewhat dark lyrics that accompany the mournful yet sweet tunes. What I always enjoy about good melodies and songs is how the emotional content of the music (notes and tones) complements the lyrics, particularly if they are repeated. Even very simple lyrics, if repeated for emphasis with different tones can convey a very complicated emotional message. In fact, I often will prefer simpler lyrics that can be interepreted in different ways, where music supplies the emotional content and thus a lot of the meaning.

[mthomps]

What? Are you talking about melody or rhythmic structure or what?

Trying to understand the meaning of your squiggly brackets hurt my head.

How can you analyze a melody without using notes and an actual way of analyzing rhythm?

The song is in common time and the key sig is C. The chord progression is a C major chord with an alternating C and G in the bass on the quarter note, then a first inversion G chord passing into an A minor, which then goes down to a root position G. We come back home at the end of the phrase on C major.

The melody line flows along this progression diatonically and the harmony ends with the authentic cadence. The V chord G major to the the I chord C major.

[stuck]

What? Are you talking about melody or rhythmic structure or what?

Trying to understand the meaning of your squiggly brackets hurt my head.

How can you analyze a melody without using notes and an actual way of analyzing rhythm?

The song is in common time and the key sig is C. The chord progression is a C major chord with an alternating C and G in the bass on the quarter note, then a first inversion G chord passing into an A minor, which then goes down to a root position G. We come back home at the end of the phrase on C major.

The melody line flows along this progression diatonically and the harmony ends with the authentic cadence. The V chord G major to the the I chord C major.


Yes, that's how I'm used to analyzing songs, too.

Your analysis is like the starting point of my abstraction. I'm doing a kind of unfolding of your sentence "the melody line flows along this progression".

That's how I used to think of it: "the melody is flowing". The fact is that there's more detail in there.

'motifs'-short melodic, rhythmic phrases that get manipulated and conformed to the chord progressions. <- those are what i'm breaking down.

:chill:

i'm talking about 'melody shapes.' i didn't write a bunch of notes and chords, because 1. it's not relevant to my abstraction and 2. not everybody understands notes.

[stuck]

What?

and look, the simple way to hear what I'm talking about is to sing the referenced fragments back to back

sing 1[seldom told] 2[have squandered] and 3[resistance]

they're each 3 note descending melodies. I realize that the rhythm changes between 1 and 2, and that the last note of 3 jumps as opposed to stepping down the scale. The shape, though warped, constitutes a motif.

[mthomps]

lol, is that a 'chill pill'? :theclap: At first glance it looked like some graphical artifact.

I understand now you are talking about motifs. However, your method of layman transcription is up for questioning. It might be easier to just learn to read a staff.

I keep rereading your OP and all that I can understand from it is you are comparing the motifs to visual shapes. Are you showing the lyrical parts that use and then build upon a chosen motif?

[stuck]

I understand now you are talking about motifs. However, your method of layman transcription is up for questioning. It might be easier to just learn to read a staff.

Well I thought of doing colors. No, a staff wouldn't really help- it'd be like trying to understand assembly code.

Schenkerian analysis would be a little detailed for this specific facet. I literally don't care about what the chords are doing. In essence, they are simply a terrain that the musical shapes get mapped onto.



I keep rereading your OP and all that I can understand from it is you are comparing the motifs to visual shapes. Are you showing the lyrical parts that use and then build upon a chosen motif?

I'm showing that there are several motifs that overlap, intersecting to form an overall shape (which in this case happens to be somewhat palindromic and arching). so, yes.

There's a lot of information encoded in a piece of music, and analysis purposefully restricts what is discussed, in order to bring atomistic aspects of it into focus.

I ignored, for the purpose of this discussion, harmony and fine rhythmic variation. In addition, the analysis that I gave was not thorough even within the bounds of its own conventions. This is not fatal to a discussion which is, by design, open-ended.

Maybe this is a better coding:

I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told. I have squandered my resistance for a pocket full of baubles, such are promises.

The problem in displaying them on the internet should be clear- the motifs I was dissecting overlap.

[rhinosaur]

Also check out the internal rhyme. He syncs the notes, the meter, and the internal rhyme:

I- am just a poor- boy though my stor- y's seldom told-
I have squan- dered my resis- tance
for a pock- etful of baub- les
such are prom- ises

In terms of melody I'd lump the "linear" parts together, so it would be liek:

I am just a poor boy though my stor-
y's seldom told, I have
squandered my resist- ance for a
pocketful of baub- les such are prom- ises

[stuck]

Also check out the internal rhyme. He syncs the notes, the meter, and the internal rhyme:

I- am just a poor- boy though my stor- y's seldom told-
I have squan- dered my resis- tance
for a pock- etful of baub- les
such are prom- ises

that's great, didn't notice that. my wife said after hearing that 'maybe that melody structure IS conscious'.



In terms of melody I'd lump the "linear" parts together, so it would be liek:

I am just a poor boy though my stor-
y's seldom told, I have
squandered my resist- ance for a
pocketful of baub- les such are prom- ises

I 'hear' those too. nice.

From that analysis, there's an instance of that linear melody missing over 'story's seldom told'.

[Professor Chaos]

Stuck "the music man" at his finest

[Toonia]

I'm not certain of your background and what might be redundant in what I have to say, but these are a few thoughts.

One approach is to think of melody as a natural outgrowth of the text. Music accentuates the natural rhythm and inflection of the words. This is true even when the melody has a distinctive shape. It is why Italian melodies sound different from French, etc. It is broken down into phrases just as text is with cadence points that function in the same way as punctuation. Each phrase tends to have a climax that the melody is directed towards by increasing in tension and then releases from with decreasing tension. This often results in arch-shaped melodies.

[stuck]

I'm not certain of your background and what might be redundant in what I have to say, but these are a few thoughts.

One approach is to think of melody as a natural outgrowth of the text. Music accentuates the natural rhythm and inflection of the words. This is true even when the melody has a distinctive shape. It is why Italian melodies sound different from French, etc. It is broken down into phrases just as text is with cadence points that function in the same way as punctuation. Each phrase tends to have a climax that the melody is directed towards by increasing in tension and then releases from with decreasing tension. This often results in arch-shaped melodies.

Interesting.

I haven't thought about that before, but my wife said the same thing earlier today.

The dramatic tension of the line totally meshes with the melody->

I am just a poor boy (sing-songy, jig-like melody)
though my story's seldom told (adding dramatic/melodic tension by climbing)
I have squandered my resistance (falling, like defeat)
for a pocket full of baubles (momentary rising of hope)
such are promises (juxtaposition of 'baubles' and 'promises', and then rest).

cool, thanks.

[JollyBard]

I say, making melodies is more of an F thing. Which is probably why they often come to me just before sleeping.
What you guys are talking about is interesting. Please continue.

[!diom]

Analyze this (1st verse):

.

[Faust06]

Many melodies I like tend to have emphasis on arpeggios or at least the same accentuated note at different octaves. It strikes me as one aspect of songwriting that comes easier than others. You either hear it or improvise till it manifests itself.

[JollyBard]

Stuck has a heavy case of synesthesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia)

[Polyskepsis]

Stuck has a heavy case of synesthesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia)

No shit, Sherlock

[Limey]

To me, Boyz II Men's four seasons of loneliness is fashioned like a a big jug, or a pair of jugs, possibly a pear shaped woman, with ample budonkadonk for big daddy wing wang, waitin' on the slap jiggle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUSOZAgl95A&fmt=18

[MuseedesBeauxArts]

To me, Boyz II Men's four seasons of loneliness is fashioned like a a big jug, or a pair of jugs, possibly a pear shaped woman, with ample budonkadonk for big daddy wing wang, waitin' on the slap jiggle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUSOZAgl95A&fmt=18

Could you please provide us with a recording of you reading this post?

[JollyBard]

No shit, Sherlock

Let me extend that: it's why he loves awful weird stuff.

[Limey]

Could you please provide us with a recording of you reading this post?

I was going to, but I cannot find a mic - I even grabbed a webcam from another machine, but the drivers don't work on Win7 64bit (it's less than a year old, too)

You're going to have to imagine a black dude, playing a white dude, playing a black dude.
I'm coming for you, Robert Downey!

[stuck]

i don't have ghat damt synaesthesia

[Limey]

i don't have ghat damt synaesthesia

well let us not write it off too soon. With tainted beef in the food supply going back to the nineties and an estimated 50 year incubation period, you could have CJD, which technically could open some sort of spongiform channel between various portions of the cerebellum. Like fiber optic, only different...

[JollyBard]

i don't have ghat damt synaesthesia

Yet you see shapes in Ligeti's etudes. Or something like that.

[Limey]

Yet you see shapes in Ligeti's etudes. Or something like that.

we haven't even ruled out tumors yet!

[stopharian]

Yet you see shapes in Ligeti's etudes. Or something like that.

Its called abstract thinking.

Metaphor is one of the most powerful creations.

[stopharian]

And No, you dont have assburgers.

[Wolfpine]

And No, you dont have assburgers.

He doesn't, unless I do too. I've done this systematic analysis before, but seeing as I'm unaccustomed to thinking like a programmer, it never occurred to me to place the lyrics in brackets as stuck_at_bronze did.

Interesting idea, and I love where this is going. Next step: analyze hundreds of songs the same way, pick up patterns and create "rules". Then, use those rules in conjunction to create the literal "perfect melody".

Oh wait, we're INTPs. It sounds like a good plan, but it'd be difficult to find someone both good enough at this and willing to actually follow through with the research. I gave up after a few songs and started writing a novel, also never completed. *sigh* Laziness. What a bastard.

[JollyBard]

Interesting idea, and I love where this is going. Next step: analyze hundreds of songs the same way, pick up patterns and create "rules". Then, use those rules in conjunction to create the literal "perfect melody".

Oh damn this would be awesome. I've never been able to write a catchy melody. Ever.

[Limey]

Could you please provide us with a recording of you reading this post?

I found a microphone, though it's a very low quality one.
see if you can identify the music, I thought it quite fitting. (http://writtenpolicy.com/wingwang.wma)

[Skinart]

and look, the simple way to hear what I'm talking about is to sing the referenced fragments back to back

sing 1[seldom told] 2[have squandered] and 3[resistance]

they're each 3 note descending melodies. I realize that the rhythm changes between 1 and 2, and that the last note of 3 jumps as opposed to stepping down the scale. The shape, though warped, constitutes a motif.

Are you categorizing them as descending because the last note is lower than the first? Because 1 is strictly descending, but 2 and 3 rise before descending.




Interesting idea, and I love where this is going. Next step: analyze hundreds of songs the same way, pick up patterns and create "rules". Then, use those rules in conjunction to create the literal "perfect melody".

It's been done using probability matrices. The results are... interesting and have snatches of melody in them. Best results from working with a particular style.

I was working at something similar about a decade ago, and one of my instructors told me of some tome that had really broken things down mathematically. Unfortunately, it was hideously expensive and rare and over the last decade I've completely forgotten what it is. However, there is some fruit to be had if you look into the melody from the standpoint of signal analysis. A good portion of the fruit just comes from having a solid vocabulary and symbolic library to start from as well as well defined computational tools.

On the other hand, it's hardly an easy discipline and the background needed to do anything non-trivial is...non-trivial.

From what I understand, that was a large part of the problem with that book I can't remember the name of. But I remember a number of jazz guys talking about how while they didn't understand the whole of it, every time they dug into it and understood a part of it, it opened their eyes to things. I really wish I could remember the name though.

My Bardic Lore check failed. :sadbanana:

[stuck]

Are you categorizing them as descending because the last note is lower than the first? Because 1 is strictly descending, but 2 and 3 rise before descending.

I realize the phrases have connective tissue. Sing only the exact words to which I'm referring and you'll see.

It's always difficult talking about music because there's a serious element of intuiting objects described with imperfect language.

[Skinart]

I know what you are referring to, the thing is I see them as distinctly different in their interval shape.

If A,B,C represent pitch where A is the highest and C is the lowest I hear the phrases (using your numbering ) like so:

1: ABC
2: CAA (repeating note on squandered) or BAC
3: BAC or ABC

I think you have a solid argument for melodic matches on 1 and 3 though. I think what is catching me out is the nature of the duo's harmony and melody being nigh interchangeable, and my own sense of tonality and tendency to singing harmony. But I don't hear a descending three note movement at all on [have squandered].

Could be I just haven't heard the arrangement you are working from too--or it isn't the arrangement that remained dominant in my memory.

[stuck]

all the interval shapes are different, the similarity that they share is that they are three segments in a falling gesture.

.

from that version, you can hear one goes a whole step higher on 'have'. that might be the confusion.

the notes are C B A, B A G, A G D in one voice
in the other: C B A, A A G, A G D
words [seldom told], [have squandered], [resistance]

the segments are overlaid like shingles, so each starts off higher than where the last segment left off.

[Skinart]

The version in my head has definitely evolved. I blame jazz teaching me to learn the melody and stay away from it.

[stuck]

The version in my head has definitely evolved. I blame jazz teaching me to learn the melody and stay away from it.

I blame jazz for making you uppity and not giving me my propers.

[stuck]

I heard this today:

.,

which made me think of this comment:


The version in my head has definitely evolved. I blame jazz teaching me to learn the melody and stay away from it.

I think I want to learn that version. He was freaking 16.

[tree tree]

Shapes in music...
forest instead of the trees,
and then clumps of trees instead of tree's...
why not?
If something can be described in an upper case I unit than why break the I unit into two T units? (by splitting the I in half)
I think this would all make more sense with a more complex song. But I dig the approach. Better for application than communication...

[Skinart]

That only works if you are using block print with the appropriate serifs.

I'm just being petty/snarky now.

[bclark619g]

I know I'm late to the party...

The line is "I have squandered my resistance for a pocket full of MUMBLES such are promises." NOT BAUBLES.

40 posts and no one caught it...

/purist rant

[stuck]

I know I'm late to the party...

The line is "I have squandered my resistance for a pocket full of MUMBLES such are promises." NOT BAUBLES.

40 posts and no one caught it...

/purist rant

I actually noticed it when I listened again after skinart's dissent. I left it as a test to you, like god and the dinosaur bones.

[rhinosaur]

I know I'm late to the party...

The line is "I have squandered my resistance for a pocket full of MUMBLES such are promises." NOT BAUBLES.

40 posts and no one caught it...

/purist rant

That's what my songbook says, and that's what I thought, but songbooks can be wrong and he *ahem* mumbles the words. Plus it doesn't matter because this thread isn't about lyrics. :p

[stuck]

It's also my getting revenge for bombay being changed to mumbai.

[stuck]

"It hasn't all been done before."

Not even close.

I had a revelation the other day while writing songs in the traditional sense- basically trying to find a unique and compelling melodic/harmonic fragment and building around that. There are basically infinite melodies, even though they appear so simple in design. The reason is evident upon an analysis of what how melodies are constructed.

Let's say you confine yourself to strict constraints: only quarter notes, only diatonic, one octave, no rests (this is a sure recipe for an extremely boring melody, btw). At the very first note, you are presented with 8 options. At the second note, the possibility set grows to 64. Now, you add harmonization to the mix, and each of those options gets multiplied by 3 (In diatonic harmony, the note you choose will be a part of a 'triad' of three pitches. For instance, C in the key area of C major could be harmonized with C major, F major, and A minor). There are 24 choices as to your first note, and 576 choices for your two-note complex. This is for your most boring, simple melodic complex.

And, if you do anything to expand your basic material, like using different note lengths, chord extensions, modulations, and rests, the set quickly becomes functionally infinite.

Copland says, in his amazing books about composition, that melodic composition is the one thing that really can't be taught. You either have a gift or you do not. I don't know if I agree with this or not. I think that melodic composition is fundamentally intuitive in its conception, but that developmental tools can be learned. You go out into the wild and blindly grope, maybe in some area you've found a melody before, maybe a new place. You find something, club it over the head and drag it back. Then you get your taxidermy set out and add squirrel ears, bat wings, etc., all the while asking yourself "is this just another gopher?" Ne leads to Ti.

[MacGuffin]

Hold on, not every arbitrary string of notes is a good melody. You can't quite say they are infinite. Not anymore than a string of letters make good sentences.

[stuck]

Hold on, not every arbitrary string of notes is a good melody. You can't quite say they are infinite. Not anymore than a string of letters make good sentences.

The game of writing melodies is different from writing words and sentences because melodies are fundamentally abstract. There's no specific meaning put to "C note over C chord in C major". It's instead a game of attention maintenance. In the framework I've described- diatonic, quarter-notes, one octave- every one of those 576 possibilities could be used as a 'word' in a meaningful sentence.

Plus, I never said 'good' melody. The rules of a 'good' melody are always on the cutting edge of musical culture. What I'm trying to express is that this is essentially an expansive enterprise- there's not exactly one perfect melody. Perfect melodies are countless but exceedingly rare.

[MacGuffin]

The game of writing melodies is different from writing words and sentences because melodies are fundamentally abstract. There's no specific meaning put to "C note over C chord in C major". It's instead a game of attention maintenance. In the framework I've described- diatonic, quarter-notes, one octave- every one of those 576 possibilities could be used as a 'word' in a meaningful sentence.

Plus, I never said 'good' melody. The rules of a 'good' melody are always on the cutting edge of musical culture. What I'm trying to express is that this is essentially an expansive enterprise- there's not exactly one perfect melody. Perfect melodies are countless but exceedingly rare.

I suppose what counts as "good" is entirely dependent on human brain architecture. Seems that musical appreciation developed along with language. Do birds enjoy their own songs? Do they enjoy the songs of other birds?

[Resonance]

Perfect melodies are countless but exceedingly rare.

Like prime numbers above 4 million!

[rhinosaur]

Cantaloupe Island.... Refreshing even after hearing it 1000 times!

[stuck]

I suppose what counts as "good" is entirely dependent on human brain architecture. Seems that musical appreciation developed along with language.

And brain architecture has vastly more possibilities for perception of sound structures than can be recreated with the human body. So you have this disparity- what the brain and memory can perceive as musical is huge, whereas the human voice (the predecessor of language) can only operate in certain ways (although this is always expanding, too). I visualize this as the thread of the human voice taking an extremely circuitous path through the space of perception.

To follow this metaphor further, threads of vocal usage diverge often in human history. Certain cultures have phonemes that do not exist in others. The melody for each culture is built upon this foundation of divergent phonemes, and therefore the threads may never intersect.

Good melodists have to explore this space intuitively because of the sheer difference in the size of the thread of the vocal style of their culture and the space in which perception works. You can literally go anywhere with a melody. The rules are made up along the way, but they will reflect, perhaps re-contextualizing , that which has come before.

That's why


Like prime numbers above 4 million!

Is almost an apt metaphor. We can't say how many perfect melodies there could be at any specific time. Perfect melodies require a genre. They usually become the most dominant set of musical ideas for that genre. It all can happen in any order.

For instance, classical music existed before schubert, but has created some of its perfect melodies. The opposite is something like pharell's 'drop it like it's hot,' which then went on to become the perfect song for the genre of 'jerk music'.


Do birds enjoy their own songs? Do they enjoy the songs of other birds?

I'm sure 'enjoy' is part of the larger subset of what they do with song. Probably not so much other birds.

[proverbs6:13]

[I am just a poor boy (though my] stor) y's
{seldom told.}
I {have squandered}
my {resistance}
(for a [pock) et full of |baubles such| are] |promises|

I have a very untrained ear but this is what I could work out, after cheating.
Melodically:
[I am] just a poor boy (though my)
[story's] {seldom told.} (I {have)
squandered} my |resistance| (for a)
[pocket] full of mumbles (such are)
|promises|
* 1/2 step is equivalent to whole step. eg. {seldom told} and {have squandered} are; Half Whole W and W W W respectively.
Rhythmically:
[{I am} just /a poor boy/] though my
{story's} seldom told. {I have}
[{squandered} my /resistance/] (for a)
pocket full /of mumbles/ {such are}
(promi)ses

Things that don't fit into those diagrams are that:
"just a poor boy" and "full of mumbles" are different only because "a" goes up. Hence,the "mumbles" line is mumbled.
All the lines can be split so that the last two beats of the bar are the first two syllables of the next line. This is apparent in the melodic diagram with ().
The highest note, comes before the minor on "told" and the lowest is on "promises".

I think you are correct about melody being an art form. There are many ways to write melodies but bizarrely beauty often comes from subverting the rules of melodic writing. For example, how "told" works so well in the above song, it removes some of the tension of the line but the melody still feels like it must continue. Whereas, most text books would have said the A# should resolve to B in that bar, not G#.

[stuck]

I like your analysis, it points out some longer phrase symmetries that I had missed.

I imagine that any good melody will have many layers of organization, and that great songwriters are not always aware of every pattern- it just works and they like it. I know that lots of the greats are very concerned with internal rhymes, so that's probably a way of focusing on the middle ground between 'too much detail' and 'overall shape', 'melody' and 'vowel sounds'.

[stuck]

The melody for Surfer Girl is perfect. It's not hyperbole, it is something I visualize as a perfect geometric shape.

Onto the analysis! I'm just gonna stick with the meat of the verse and chorus, not the 'tag'

A[Little surfer] {little one}
B[[Make my heart come]] {{all undone}}
C[Do you love me] {do you (surfer girl)

What is essentially going on is that the same melodic shape is being moved up the diatonic scale. All six melodic cells have a similarity in shape. The three lines A B and C share a greater similarity to each other- they are each patterned to be a call and response.

To delve into the perfection of the cells more, the harmony is extended from the most basic vamp from the 50s- I vi ii V. The melody is spelled:

[little surfer]
(I chord) 5 3 (vi chord) 3 7
[little one]
(ii chord) 5 3 (V chord) 5
[make my heart come]
(iii chord) 5 3 (I chord) 3 2
[all undone]
(IV chord) 5 3 (iv chord) 1
[do you love me]
(I chord) 5 3 (vi chord) 3 7
[do you surfer]
(ii chord) 5 1 (V chord) 3 5
[girl]
(I chord) 1

Each of the arabic numerals represent the scale degree of the melody note within the local key area (represented by the roman numerals).

Seen from a global key area perspective, the melody is:

[little surfer]
5 3 1 5
[little one]
6 4 2
[make my heart come]
7 5 3 2
[all undone]
1 6 4
[do you love me]
5 3 1 5
[do you surfer]
6 2 7 2
[girl]
1

Look at the columns of numbers, how the first, second, and third syllables are all incremented from line to line for the first four lines (it's a base 8 system, so 7 +1 = 1). You can see what this means by comparing it with the previous organization- the chords are increasing by the next number, while the melodic shape stays the same. The ends of the phrases are given variations so that the phrase doesn't become too repetitious.

So yeah. Discussion?

[PsychicX]

I believe there is a mathematically genius way to predict a good melody. This is why people like Kurt Cobain blow their brains out, because the world for them is like Neo in the Matrix. It makes so much sense to them they can't understand why we don't realize it. They don't understand how they wipe their ass with melodies we could never dream of... I played the violin for a while but couldn't ever comprehend the massive undertaking it would be to assemble one of Mozart's symphonies. To "hear" in your brain how all the different instruments' harmonies will interact. I tend to believe it makes sense to them like viewing a complicated calculus equation. For me, business makes a lot of sense. I can make connections in the business world that the layman cannot readily see... the only way I can understand it.

[stuck]

Cobain deserves some attention for sure, he's one of the best melodists from his era.

It's more like geometry, seems like- little shapes creating bigger shapes, define a shape and then deform it, architecture. Yeah, there's mostly intuition involved.

[Hermione]

Geometry, design, architecture. Like engineering then? I mean in its pure form. I always wanted to figure it out a little bit. Used to write lyrics ..anyway. (sorry, side comment. find all of this in'ersting.] Algebra?

[stuck]

Geometry, design, architecture. Like engineering then? I mean in its pure form. I always wanted to figure it out a little bit. Used to write lyrics ..anyway. (sorry, side comment. find all of this in'ersting.] Algebra?

haha, i see it that way, at least. sometimes. i don't think many other musicians do. i'm barely a musician anyway.

i once applied some algebraic ideas to music, for a rhythm. there's a thing called a 'tihai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tihai)' in north indian classical music. essentially, it means a 'phraselet' that's repeated three times. you put this over any beat that's NOT in 3, and you get some weird divisions (3x = 4, in 4/4). I tried to extract a phrase from zakkir hussein where he sped up the subsequent 'phraselets' by 3/2 and then by 2. Fitting that into another meter yields X + 3/2X + 2X = N, where N is the phrase length, and X is the 'phraselet'. The X becomes a fraction by which you have to multiply each constituent note in your phraselet. yes, musicians so some of this stuff in their head. BUT, as far as I can figure, it rarely delves into algebra.

[Hermione]

Melody is way, way, way, not even kidding, over my head. Just am getting all my stoopid Algebra skills back up to speed, due to the fact that I like it now, it doesn't involve me being in high school anymore, and only involves my earning more money. Algebra is really kind of fun though. Well, sort of. I wish I was a musician. Always did.

[PsychicX]

Melody is way, way, way, not even kidding, over my head. Just am getting all my stoopid Algebra skills back up to speed, due to the fact that I like it now, it doesn't involve me being in high school anymore, and only involves my earning more money. Algebra is really kind of fun though. Well, sort of. I wish I was a musician. Always did.

highschool! stay away evil one!

hey I'm currently gaining abilities and interests I never previously had. If there's any personality that can succeed by sheer willpower it would be an INTP. I'm guessing it was an INTP's idea to deconstruct the human genome-- music cannot possibly be a steeper challenge than that, could it? "musician" has a million applications than merely a creator of melodies... you're still in good shape!

[Hermione]

Major music fan is my best musical ability. I condone fan-dom, especially if it's music. Comics are good too though. Anyway, Stuck is one of those geek musicians. Kind of a 2000's Renaissance man. All hail.

Now, back to our regularly sponsored Melody thread.

[PsychicX]

Major music fan is my best musical ability. I condone fan-dom, especially if it's music. Comics are good too though. Anyway, Stuck is one of those geek musicians. Kind of a 2000's Renaissance man. All hail.

Now, back to our regularly sponsored Melody thread.

maybe Creative Generalist (http://creativegeneralist.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-specifically-do-generalists-do.html) might be an interesting concept for you to delve into as I was just recently introduced to this topic, not sure if i can post links yet but here goes

[Syllogism]

I've been thinking about how to write a melody lately.

This is novel to me. I've played melodic instruments for 25 years, and I've never analyzed how a proper melody is made.

Can you hear the shapes in melodies?

Take the first line in Simon and Garfunkel's "The Boxer"

"I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told. I have squandered my resistance for a pocket full of baubles, such are promises."

Upon first hearing, it sounds rambling, like a run on sentence. If you take it apart, it has many hidden symmetries and an arch structure.

-[I am just a poor boy though my] is a motif repeated by [pocket full of baubles such are]
-[seldom told] is a motif that is repeated in [have squandered] and then again in [resistance]
-[though my stor] is a motif repeated by [for a pock]
-[baubles such] is a motif repeated verbatim in [promises]

What happens in each of these cases is that the motif becomes warped (the proper word is 'sequenced') into a new scale degree, which conforms to the overarching shape. In some cases, the rhythm is warped too.

So the whole phrase is mapped out like:

[I am just a poor boy (though my] stor) y's
{seldom told.}
I {have squandered}
my {resistance}
(for a [pock) et full of |baubles such| are] |promises|

*similar brackets delineate motifs and their derivatives.
It's tough to parse, because of the density of ideas.

Look at it- it's nearly a palindrome, except for the 'tag' at the end. And yet it sounds completely fluid, like speech.

That's my rant.

Well, hello.

That's very interesting. Personally, I've always constructed the melody last, as a natural accompaniment to the instrumental. This is because there are so many factors on which the success of the melody is contingent, which include octave, tempo, beat, mood, rhythm, and rhyme scheme. An evidential result are covers that sound completely brand new--with the implementation of a completely different instrumental, the tonality, and thus the entirety, of the melody alters.

[stuck]

Well, hello.

That's very interesting. Personally, I've always constructed the melody last, as a natural accompaniment to the instrumental. This is because there are so many factors on which the success of the melody is contingent, which include octave, tempo, beat, mood, rhythm, and rhyme scheme. An evidential result are covers that sound completely brand new--with the implementation of a completely different instrumental, the tonality, and thus the entirety, of the melody alters.

That was exactly the approach with which I started composing music- everything but melody. My first 'song' was crazy polymetric blablabla blabla whatever- really just a framework to play around on, but conspicuously without a melody. Through my development as a musician and even into my professional career, I never thought about melody- it was always something to be improvised on the spot, at the conclusion of composition. It was only with exposure to extremely good melody writers that I began to see things a little differently- which is, apparently, how quite a few great songwriters see it: melody is everything.

I think I deliberately ignored it in order to learn everything else, all the gnostic mysteries, the 'factors' of which you speak.

[Skinart]

Funny, when I began, I would start with the melody and fill in the rest around it. The result was that everything was a melody. One of the comments I got fairly frequently was how melodic my basslines were. It never occurred to me to do them any other way. To me, harmonies were melodies that worked well with melody...

These days I find myself starting with the part I used to do last, drums. I think it's because they are the easiest to sequence and have a solid structure that can easily stand by itself, so it's an easy payoff.

[asperger]

Thank you, very nice analysis stuck. My only suggestion would be to changed the word “warped” to transformed as in “subject to transformational processes or mappings.”


melody is everything I'm sure that's not a universal truth. But it can't be too far from that.

I'm very motif oriented at all levels when I'm composing. It provides a kind of coherence that I find very appealing.

[Skinart]

Here's one for you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isi4FYDFfps).

I find it interesting for two main reasons:

During the verses, each line ends with a particular rhythm (no magic, it's a repeated phrase); then the chorus is the same phrase but with the words reversed, thus inverting the rhythm and making it drive.

The instrumentation is borderline noise. If anyone knows the effects chain to get that, I'm interested.

[stuck]

Thank you, very nice analysis stuck. My only suggestion would be to changed the word “warped” to transformed as in “subject to transformational processes or mappings.”

Transformation certainly is a better word.



I'm sure that's not a universal truth. But it can't be too far from that.

I was kinda being tongue in cheek, but yeah, I figure it has something to do with the human voice being the currency of communication.



I'm very motif oriented at all levels when I'm composing. It provides a kind of coherence that I find very appealing.

Me too. I try to avoid it, just to grow more. Beethoven is kind of the arch-anti-melodicist.



During the verses, each line ends with a particular rhythm (no magic, it's a repeated phrase); then the chorus is the same phrase but with the words reversed, thus inverting the rhythm and making it drive.

The rhythm is the same, there's just the word "lead" placed in front. But the "asbestos lead asbestos" happens at the same time in each measure. No bad on you, that's exactly the kind of sub-mathematical brain twist a good melody can do. You end up running things over and over in your head because you can easily reproduce them without really understanding what's going on. Come to think of it, that's not a bad heuristic for a good melody. It should tickle your intuition.



The instrumentation is borderline noise. If anyone knows the effects chain to get that, I'm interested.

I think it's something like distortion-> chorus-> compression-> noise gate. Sounds like one of those multi-fx pedals from the 90s.