The word "cunt"

[Clara]

( Or argue with me over using the Bitching Parlour for this. )

First of all : what a slam, of the most intimate part of a woman's body -- and of the controversial notion that women can enjoy sexual intimacy, on a physical, sensual level.

What a shock, that in a society which often belittles the concept of longterm monogamy, that some young women grow up to consider they "should be" engaging in physical-only sexual experiences.

My -- empirical -- observation is that for many women, true intimacy can best happen in the context of a relationship... ( redundant to elaborate; it's covered elsewhere ).

[Sally]

What does that have to do with the word "cunt"?

[coffeezombie]

I think it's mostly used as a term to degrade women. If it's a normal vulgar reference to the female genitalia there's no reason the word "pussy" can't be used by men.

[kafkaesque]

Any particular word is nothing without context.

[Sally]

Nonsense. Cunt can and should be used to refer to anything. Language is a tool, and it's mutable. You add to a word's power by labelling it "offensive." If you want to neutralize it, you take it and you make it your own.

Personally, I like to refer to anyone worthy of my disrespect as a cunt, preceded by "filthy" especially when in reference to musicians or directors.

[Clara]

Can, and should, are separate matters. I agree that offensive has a useful purpose. ( edit : vulgarity, too, has its role. )

My original post in this thread was in response to 2ds' post, in Helios' "Cunts and fish nets" thread, "it's just a word, the idea that it could be offensive without any intent to off fence is silly."

And, in the context of that thread, my objection applies.

You're talking about something else : using language in creative ways which cause the language to evolve -- which it does, anyway, and so why not be energetic about it.

[CoHo]

People that use the word cunt are a bunch of dicks!

[Clara]

Umm. That would seem to be analogous -- but, in this context, it's not. Because part of the point I'm trying to make is that men and women actually -- from a general perspective -- are different in basic ways. ( Leaving aside that our similarities outnumber those differences. )

[Sally]

But you're implying that the word as Helios used it was a derogatory term for women in general. I didn't interpret it that way at all. "Cunts and fishnets" is imagery - faceless, pornographic imagery that conveyed an evening of personal disorientation, filled with drugs and sex. He didn't refer to the women individually because he didn't remember them individually - he reacted to their cunts and to their fishnets and to the way in which they projected themselves.

[Clara]

I disagree, actually. I read that as : Helios reacting negatively to his own participation in what, on reflection, leaves him feeling somewhat shallow. BUT, the way of saying that is something that struck me, reading a convoluted series of posts by someone else ( sorry, I'm not trying so hard, over this detail ) ... that a frequent way of expressing this -- disappointment with one's choices -- is to skip a few steps in logic, and say : it's shallow *because* of shallow partners.

I should edit that... oh well.

I will add this, since I'm thinking it. There's actually no such thing as "impersonal" sex... whoever's participating is personally present.

[Sally]

But if it left him feeling shallow and negative, why not use a word that implies shallow and negative? And in this usage, he isn't pinning the shallowness and negativity on the women - he's giving us his impression of the event. Not that they have no personalities, but that he did not interact with those personalities, to his recollection. He interacted with the warm, slippery, available cunt.

And sex isn't personal if you don't feel personally involved. It's all subjective.

[Lee]

I love the word "cunt", it has such a vulgarity to it, it's such a satisfying word to say, especially when the recipient is derserving... I perticulary like it when coupled with "fuck".

FUCKING CUNT!

*satisfied*

[Sally]

Filthy cunt.

[Lee]

Filthy cunt.
How about - Scum riddled filthy fucking cunt!

*even more satisfied*

[Sally]

Oooh. Good one. :} I might throw a "festering" in there, but that might be a bit ostentatious.

[Eileen]

When people say stuff like "Language is a tool, and it's mutable" I have to stop and think for a moment. Yes, you can use language to your own ends, yes you can claim a word so that it doesn't offend *you* but overall, connotations are CULTURAL. You changing your mind about the word or adopting it as your own or whatever doesn't really change the fact that it is widely perceived as offensive and vulgar.

Moreover--I must say that I think we do need offensive and vulgar words in order to express offensive and vulgar things. I honestly don't know how I feel about gay men claiming "faggot," women claiming "cunt" or "bitch," black people claiming "nigger," etc... It's their right, I guess--but I hate the idea of watering down connotation. When somebody uses these words in spite, it should be completely unambiguous... those people are using language in a HATEFUL way. It should be visibly, audibly offensive. This might not be very coherent right this moment; I haven't thought this out fully. But... rejecting those words--saying "that's not me; you do not have permission to refer to me as such; that is unkind/rude/offensive," holds someone more accountable for their words than if you say "only I (or people like me) may refer to me as such..."

I don't know. Not fully thought out...

[Sally]

No, I know what you mean. You can instantly tell the difference between someone playfully calling their friend a nigger, a cracker, a bitch and when someone uses it offensively to degrade a person. It sends a shiver down you spine - it evokes an instant, emotional reaction: horror, shock, disgust. And there are the plays on irony, the in-betweens, the usage as Helios used it - applying the negativity to the situation while mocking the offensiveness of the word in itself.

So it's when someone condemns the word itself that it bothers me. A word in itself is nothing. It's a symbol. Language is so powerful, so intricate.... It's inaccurate to simplify a word and its connotation. Context is everything.

And I still think it's much much better to claim a word that offends you than to deny it. It's like playground teasing, which much more serious ramifications. Do you retort, "Don't call me four-eyes!" or do you take pride in your glasses and contemn the offenders' ignorance?

[Clara]

Yup, it seems that this is a frequent response : "Oh you're offended !" -- instead of owning, "Yes, I used offensive language, in a sloppy way." ;)

I think that's more offensive, than the intentional use of vulgarity... the disallowal of recognizing that offensive is -- whether the listener actually feels offended, or not. This point is something I notice, because, vulgarity as vulgarity happens to not offend me, personally... ( a quirk, I know ).

[Sally]

But you're still labelling the language as offensive. I say that there's no such thing as offensive language. Connotation is offensive, usage is offensive. Don't try to tie it to the words themselves.

[Sally]

It's like this: Words have different connotations in different contexts. "Vulgar" words in particular are used to convey emotion in the English language. They can convey a feeling of contempt, a desire to shock, a mild anger, a feeling of arousal, a sense of familiarity, and so on and so forth.

Context depends on the speaker, but it also depends on the listener, and more importantly it depends on the rapport between the speaker and the listener. For something like a forum, it's the author and the audience where the audience is presumed to be INTPs.

I call my friends cunts all the time, especially when I'm adopting a particularly playful/angry/sarcastic tone. I would never use the word in front of my mother, in part because of trans-generational formality, but also because she's an F. She reacts to the only connotation the word has for her, regardless of context.

[Clara]

So, Sally, are you saying that the only way to react, is to turn the instance around -- that it's wrong to address what one believes is implied, culturally... ever ?

Because, to step out of linguistics generally, back to this usage of the word cunt, I think there is a difference in attitudes -- and there are reasons for it. ( Leaving them aside... there are so many, and so diverse. )

[Clara]

Aaaargh ! *You* are the one who keeps turning this into : "Clara, yopu're just reacting to the word."

I've been talking about *what* makes it offrensive *when* it's offensive.

[Sally]

Well, are you reacting to Helios's post? Because maybe we're just interpreting it differently. I didn't think what he said was offensive at all. And because I didn't feel offended, you're being offended seems to me like you're reacting to the word itself rather than to the context in which it was used.

[Star]

There's no acceptable context for that word.

[SheepDog]

Would have not been essentially the same thing if he'd said "vaginas and fish nets"?

[Sally]

So is this in a hypothetical situation that popped into your head as you read Helios's post or is the context Helios's post itself?

[Clara]

Well, are you reacting to Helios's post? Because maybe we're just interpreting it differently. I didn't think what he said was offensive at all. And because I didn't feel offended, you're being offended seems to me like you're reacting to the word itself rather than to the context in which it was used.So, you do think the only acceptable rebuttal of a word being used in a context that reflects an offensive attitude... ( can we address one thing at a time, please ? ) is if one feels personally offended ?

edit : Once again, you're turning this into "What's wrong with you ?"
- SheepDog, I read it as referring to the women. I might have misread that, and ... once again, this thread was my wanting to explore how we use words ( and to say, yes, true, it IS different, think about it... but think furthjer, too )

[Sally]

Well, I think it's a balance, and it depends on the sort of communication going on. It's intent, but the speaker also should have some idea of how the audience is going to react. On this forum specifically, I would expect most people to be able to pick up on context and also to have relatively thick skin. That's part of the context.

Acceptable... is a value-judgement. It seems to me like you're over-reacting, and if you have some internal reason to find that word so offensive, then I would be understanding, but I still wouldn't view Helios's words as being generally offensive. More like a faux pas.

[Chukamuk]

People that use the word cunt are a bunch of dicks!:rofl:

[Clara]

Well, I think it's a balance, and it depends on the sort of communication going on. It's intent, but the speaker also should have some idea of how the audience is going to react. On this forum specifically, I would expect most people to be able to pick up on context and also to have relatively thick skin. That's part of the context.

Acceptable... is a value-judgement. It seems to me like you're over-reacting, and if you have some internal reason to find that word so offensive, then I would be understanding, but I still wouldn't view Helios's words as being generally offensive. More like a faux pas.
You seem determined to make this about personalities. This happens often, when one is talking about what one perceives as offensive...

I took an example ( and Helios, I'm really, really sorry that I now seem to be picking on you, in all this. Because, this isn't anbout you either. Right now, you're an innocent bystander. Who doesn't deserve to have his name used over and over, in this way -- which is another part of why I put all this where it's due for deletion. Also, I suddenly realized that wehave a "brouillon"-thinking place. ;) .. and only for the more-likely-to-post-their-thoughts ) to address this topic.

Stopping here, because I type slower, and can't see if you've posted something else.

[Clara]

Deepsky, you really think so ? *asking, because I'd like to know*

[Star]

Deepsky, you really think so ? *asking, because I'd like to know*
I think it's too charged to ever be used casually or without malice -- like other slurs we know that I won't repeat.

[Sally]

Ok, I'm sorry if I'm stretching this out forever, but I really am confused. :}

I assume that most INTPs would not be offended by a word alone, but rather the way it's used in context. That just seems... very T and P, logical and open-minded, to me. Because words DO have different, ofter very subtle connotations... Well, you got the point. :}

So when you branched a thread off of Helios's thread about the objectification of women and noted especially the word "cunt," I didn't understand. I still don't understand. Because I didn't see Helios using the word "cunt" to objectify women. So either you were reacting to the word itself, to the context in which Helios used it, to a more common context brought to mind by Helios's context, or to something else entirely.

Please take as much time as you care to give to explain. :)

(It seems like I'm always arguing things down to the ground over semantics....)

[Clara]

( Thanks. I really find that discussion helps me to think. )

I think it's more highly charged than some want to admit.

And, I think that there's this unspeakable : that maybe the implicit contempt of women acting promiscuously... might have wider implications ( in society, and in her own life ) than people are comfortable talking about.

[Sally]

Ok, but would you concede that a word is "charged" mostly in the minds of the people who are its victims?

[Sally]

So how would you phrase it in a non-contemptuous manner?

Put yourself into the situation: a haze of drugs and sex. You don't even remember their faces. You remember the sex. How would you phrase it?

[Star]

So how would you phrase it in a non-contemptuous manner?

Put yourself into the situation: a haze of drugs and sex. You don't even remember their faces. You remember the sex. How would you phrase it?
If he'd been in a blues club, I wouldn't like to hear his drunken interpretation of it as having been surrounded by niggers. Get it yet?

[Sally]

Got it.

BUT. If it were a William Burroughs novel, I'd be all for it.

I was raised in the South. Nigger is the worst word. I use it freely in conversation with my sister, strictly when referring to white people. I don't blink when black people use it casually. But in any other situation....

So, my deduction: Cunt does not have nearly the same emotional connotation for me that nigger does, in and of itself. I therefore project that same lack of concern onto others. Now I wonder how unusual my attitude is...

[Clara]

I really am confused. :}

(It seems like I'm always arguing things down to the ground over semantics....)
Men objectify women, women objectify men... so ? ( a thread for another day, though... )

About arguing something into the ground -- that's part of my explanation, to those close to me, to whom I've spoken about the forum... Because, it really is an INTP-specific thing, along with sometimes launching something, and then letting it fade off.

I treated Helios unfairly -- and, I didn't forsee that we'd have to keep :rolleyes: going back to his particular ( hey, I agree with you on this -- so what. And, again : Sorry, Helios -- I wish make this up to you, or at least drop *you* out of this topic. Also, I don't think it was "sexist" on your part... just a choice of words... that I borrowed, to launch this topic. )

I can't think of what to say, that I haven't already said. At this point, it might still be necessary to say : it must sometimes be possible to discuss a topic, WITHOUT inferences that *I* must have "issues." That's facile...

[Clara]

Again with, "Oh, but it doesn't *bother* me..." :banghead:

[ohnoaninfp]

I hate it wen guys use the word. It makes me think so much less of them.

[MasterMerk]

Meh, cunt is used pretty commonplace round here and the UK. It's lost all impact.

[mgb]

Meh, cunt is used pretty commonplace round here and the UK. It's lost all impact.

But they say it so well. *thinks of the Brick Top quote from Snatch*

I like the word, but think it should be used on rare occassions, and not as an objectification of anyone, just because it packs punch, more so than other swear words do because of overuse.

I also use it a lot when driving. Because people can't drive and that's hardly my fault.

[SheepDog]

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cunt

Some feminists seek to claim cunt as an acceptable word, in much the same way that queer has been "reclaimed" by homosexuals.

[Circe]

Quote:
Some feminists seek to claim cunt as an acceptable word, in much the same way that queer has been "reclaimed" by homosexuals.


What are you deducing then?
That "cunt" is a "feminist" word?
The key word in that sentence is "some" SheepDog, since "some" non-feminists would also make claim to that word.
The word is "free" for anyone's use or non-use.

By the way, SheepDog, wikipedia.org - has no copyright, anyone can add what they so desire to it.

[ApeTheDog]

It's not a very heavy insult in my language. I regularily say (and hear say) things like "what a cunt-car" when it won't go fast, or "what a cunt-game" when a certain video game sucks.

[Geoff]

Meh, cunt is used pretty commonplace round here and the UK. It's lost all impact.

No, it hasnt lost all impact in the UK at all (but thank you for generalising a nation you arent present in ;) ).

It is still considered very offensive in the UK (which is precisely why you will hear people use it, I am sure). But I have very rarely if ever heard it used playfully as a joke term around friends (like Sally suggested).

It is still the 'feared word to utter or print' I would say. You *dont* hear it on the TV. The networks are much happier to use fuck than they are cunt, in the UK.

Oh, and in the UK context I am inclined to agree with Deepsky. It has such strongly negative connotations that the context *of the listener* is usually going to be negative. I am not therefore against the word (it has a long and illustrious history ;) ) but I am strongly against its use in casual conversation in the UK. It will, and no doubt frequently does, strongly insult bystanders and the world is made a poorer place as a result.

If people intend it as a strongly offensive insult, then it is perfectly usable for that purpose, of course. I wouldnt, but everyone has their own standards, or not as the person chooses.

-Geoff

[Geoff]

What are you deducing then?
That "cunt" is a "feminist" word?
The key word in that sentence is "some" SheepDog, since "some" non-feminists would also make claim to that word.
The word is "free" for anyone's use or non-use.

By the way, SheepDog, wikipedia.org - has no copyright, anyone can add what they so desire to it.

Yes, exactly. This piece is a bit hypocritical in fact.



North Americans generally find the word more offensive than the British and Australians; in Britain, unlike in America, "cunt" can be used as a jovial term of endearment in very limited specific contexts. Most Britons however do find the word extremely objectionable.

Sounds like the author can't decide if and where it is extremely objectionable or not!

-Geoff

[MasterMerk]

No, it hasnt lost all impact in the UK at all (but thank you for generalising a nation you arent present in ;) ).


I must know the wrong people from the UK, then. We throw it around like a cunt.

[melancholeric]

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

[2ds]

hmm, i should probably make a post seeing as i started this shitstorm.

I'm reminded of what was said about the word nigger before. being from australia it has almost no negative connotations here (black people make up a very small % of the population and we oppressed abo's here not niggers.). I have asian friends who call me nigger all the time(i just sorta nod my head and go along with it), it's mainly a word that's been imported by american music/tv. Infact if you say it alot, people are more likely to think you want to be the next eminem than think you are being offensive.

Cunt is an interesting word in that i hardly ever hear it used in it's biological context. It's usually a blind insult with no reference to it's origins. I imagine because of this it's kinda impossible to be offended by helios's post, it's probably the first time this year i've heard it used in it's proper context, i just assumed helios was trying for a pornographic image.

Do you guys who find the word offensive find pornography offensive ?

I find cunt tends to refer to mean or nasty and dick to stupid. so who get the better deal, would you rather be stupid or nasty ?

-2ds

[Apostasius]

http://members.lycos.co.uk/mathunt/dissertation.html

I've never really cared for all the social baggage that is generally assigned to words. Connotation always seems to trump denotation in language. This is one reason people so easily misunderstand one another.

And since this is in the bitching parlor...

Euphemisms attempt to circumvent the "taboo" words that offend. What I find annoying are people who use euphemisms when they mean (connotatively) the word that they somehow are too elitist to use. I knew someone who always used "witch" in place of "bitch", because she was too "Christian" to use cuss words. The suggestive meaning (i.e., connotation), however, remained. People seem to do this all the time and somehow think they are above those who would use more vulgar words. Why use "gosh darnit" when it is clear what the meaning is? Why use euphemisms in place of the words that clearly suggest how the speaker feels?

Furthermore, how do some words obtain their offensive connotation? The word "shit" has no racial or sexual overtones, yet it is considered a bad word. Crap shit doodoo-- all the same.

What is amusing is when words that were at one time euphemisms eventually lose their euphemistic value and acquire the very negative connotation that they sought to replace (e.g., idiot to retarded to mentally disabled). I think Steven Pinker called this the "euphemism treadmill."

I guess I don't really have a point other than to say euphemistic language can become disgustingly PC. Stupid goddamn cunt fuckers-- er, I mean, foolish gosh darn vagina copulaters.

[SheepDog]

What are you deducing then?
That "cunt" is a "feminist" word?
The key word in that sentence is "some" SheepDog, since "some" non-feminists would also make claim to that word.
The word is "free" for anyone's use or non-use.

By the way, SheepDog, wikipedia.org - has no copyright, anyone can add what they so desire to it.
Looks like I have a new friend. ;)

[SheepDog]

Yes, exactly. This piece is a bit hypocritical in fact.

Sounds like the author can't decide if and where it is extremely objectionable or not!

-Geoff
I'm sure this article has more than one author, since as you correctly state, it is not consistent. It's safe to say that there will be no consensus on such a charged word.

I only thought it was amusing that the word 'feminist' made it into the definition at all. It may have no significance, being on wikipedia, or it may. Is it more or less significant than an opinion posted on INTPCentral?

[cjs55]

I've never really cared for all the social baggage that is generally assigned to words. Connotation always seems to trump denotation in language. This is one reason people so easily misunderstand one another.


Definitely correct. Cunt is an effictive insult because of the very harsh sound, as pointed out before. An anti-female connotation is nonexistant much of the time. Would those that argue that cunt is always a derogatory term towards females also like to argue that calling someone a dickhead is being derogatory towards the male gender? (You could, but you'd be wrong.)

[crule81]

After what Stem/Utopmk/Mike did, his last name should be changed to Hunt.

[s]

There is a "Curb Your Enthusiasm" episode where Larry (half playing) calls a guy a cunt and everyone present is mortified. I was like wha?? Dick is ok, so is prick, bitch, whore, slut, and fuck... but cunt is like the ultimate for some reason.

I like knowing it has that much power.

[CosmicDust]

[url]
Euphemisms attempt to circumvent the "taboo" words that offend. What I find annoying are people who use euphemisms when they mean (connotatively) the word that they somehow are too elitist to use. I knew someone who always used "witch" in place of "bitch", because she was too "Christian" to use cuss words. The suggestive meaning (i.e., connotation), however, remained. People seem to do this all the time and somehow think they are above those who would use more vulgar words. Why use "gosh darnit" when it is clear what the meaning is? Why use euphemisms in place of the words that clearly suggest how the speaker feels?

Furthermore, how do some words obtain their offensive connotation? The word "shit" has no racial or sexual overtones, yet it is considered a bad word. Crap shit doodoo-- all the same.

What is amusing is when words that were at one time euphemisms eventually lose their euphemistic value and acquire the very negative connotation that they sought to replace (e.g., idiot to retarded to mentally disabled). I think Steven Pinker called this the "euphemism treadmill."

I guess I don't really have a point other than to say euphemistic language can become disgustingly PC. Stupid goddamn cunt fuckers-- er, I mean, foolish gosh darn vagina copulaters.
IMO, sometimes using milder words can express degree. For instance, you can say "crud" when mildly upset, "crap" when moderately upset, and "shit" when very upset. I think I do this to some degree, though not always with total consistency...I may just be more likely to use the "worse" words when more upset.

I also use curse words for humor sometimes, or to try to "speak the language" of the other person if that person is a heavy swearer...kind of one of those chameleon things, I guess.

[2ds]

IMO, sometimes using milder words can express degree. For instance, you can say "crud" when mildly upset, "crap" when moderately upset, and "shit" when very upset. I think I do this to some degree, though not always with total consistency...I may just be more likely to use the "worse" words when more upset.

I also use curse words for humor sometimes, or to try to "speak the language" of the other person if that person is a heavy swearer...kind of one of those chameleon things, I guess.

Using milder words for degrees is good but ... people who say heck becuase they think it's wrong to say hell _but_ they want to swear is i think what the original poster is talking about..
-2ds

[Claverhouse]

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS

[Jen]

Fucking cunt whore bitch! Sopranos style :)

I feel better now :)

[Ferrus]

Shakespeare alludes to the word in one of his plays, it is of reasonably old provenance.

[Hermione]

Shakespeare alludes to the word in one of his plays, it is of reasonably old provenance.

And I'm so glad to hear that he wasn't a total pussy then. Still a drama queen.. I was right in there with him , too, until Romeo and Juliet. Once I was forced into that bit of his, I lost interest. Now on w/the fucking cussing, dickheads.

[Ivy]

The Vagina Monologues (http://www.listal.com/video/179735)

[Jen]

Fabulous! :cheer:

[s]

I love the word... especially calling my male friends "cunt."

MacG is more of a pussy than a cunt though.

[stopharian]

I used to have a band of rough and tumble friends from New Zealand who used the word as an endearing term for their male friends. In the parlance of the Kiwi white trash I was a "good cunt"

[meanlittlechimp]

I forgot I wrote this one night. Should have waited until there was a thread started about it.

It's acidic and offends all ethnicities and genders - you're emasculated as a man or your dirty and putrid as a woman. I just love the sound of it. It's only one syllable yet conveys so much meaning and feeling.

It is a word that surpasses all other words......

We came from it. Some long for it. Some lie for it. Some sell it, while others buy it. Some kill for it or kill themselves over it. Some are embarrassed by it. Some shave it. Some misbehave with it (or for it).

It is paradox, enigma and dichotomy. Those words are long; but cunt is short. It can be described but never completely defined. It is soft yet course. It can cause problems or can solve them. It can drive men wild or give men peace. It is beautiful and ugly. It's fragrance can be sweet or it's stench can be putrid. It sits in silence but can erupt with noise.

It is inviting and intimidating. It is Georgia O' Keefe. It is a ballet dancer. It is a crack whore. It is everything and nothing. It is spirit. It is flesh. It is sin and it is redemption. It is a dream that I can't wake up from.

[Helios]

This thread reminds me how insanely long I have lingered at this place. I caused it*, over 2 years ago!













*posting drunk, kinda like right now....only worse

[ryan_m_parr]

I used to have a band of rough and tumble friends from New Zealand who used the word as an endearing term for their male friends. In the parlance of the Kiwi white trash I was a "good cunt"

Did they ever use the metaphor "Settle Petal?"