Any Enneagram 4s?

[Mantis]

I don't get it..I am supposed to be an INTP, but tested as a 4 on the enneagram thing.:mellow:

[magister]

I often tie between 4 and 5.

[Risingson]

I often tie between 4 and 5.

Same here. Even though I am definitely more of a 5 (judging by the description), my 4 wing is very strong.

Let's embrace our artistic side, shall we?

[Mantis]

I tested 4 with a strong 3 wing..or 3 with a strong 4 wing, because they came out with the same percentage.

Funny thing is I also tested sometimes as an INFP, rather than an INTP, though I definitely feel the INTP suits me best.

Are there any famous INTP artists?

[Quad]

You may want to examine the INFP vs. INTP question more closely. I originally tested as INTP and very much embraced the type as it seemed to make sense to me... but over time I have come to realize I am more likely an INFP, and enneagram 4 (a logical overlap).

I mis-typed as INTP because I grew up the household of a math teacher and have come to strongly value thinking, logic, and science and believe that decisions should be made with logical thought and not just emotion. That principle covered up the fact that my personality preference is actually F over T.

I also do not think you can really reach a conclusion to this sort of problem by testing more because once you (believe) you know your type it biases your answers into reaffirming that belief. There are some great posts in this forum that helped me reach my conclusion.

[Void]

I'm a 4, just ask yourself if you make important decisions ultimately based on emotion or a more reasoned basis.

INTPs can be type 4s, enneagram and MBTI doesn't map perfectly.

[whytiger]

I'm also a 4. It makes it difficult for me to pin down my type because I have an unstable self-image. I'm hyperaware of my internal state so if I ask myself "do I feel like an INTP today?" the answer might be yes or no. Sometimes I feel more INTJ or ENTP.

I've been accused of being an ENFP several times based on my online writing style which always makes me laugh. If only they knew me in person...

INFPs are ruled by values and feelings just as INTPs are ruled by logic. Because Fi and Ti are right-brained type introverted functions, though, they are both like "feelings" in the sense that they are non-verbal or semi-verbal. Otherwise they are quite different.

[Flatchett]

3w4


:confused:

[whytiger]

3w4


:confused:

The Professional. Not impossible for an INTP. What are you confused about?

If I may offer a theory, one thing that seems to indicate your enneagram is what really makes you angry:

As a 4, it makes me angry when somebody says I'm something that I don't believe I am, i.e. questions my unique self.

5's typically are worried about competence so they get angry when people question their abilities, especially their ability to look after themselves. NT's tend to care about competence but some are more sure of it than others. For example, although I'm an NT, I tend to be confident in my ability to get things done so I don't bother with people who question my abilities.

3's are more worried about worthiness, so they get angry if somebody questions their worth.

And so on for the other enneagrams.

[JollyBard]

Funny thing is I also tested sometimes as an INFP, rather than an INTP, though I definitely feel the INTP suits me best.

You feel it? This is Fi at its work right here.
You're definitely INFP, just like most people in this thread.

[edge walker]

Not impossible for an INTP.
INTP 3 is possible, if not very common. An INTP 4 is almost certainly a mistyped INFP.

(3, 6 and 9, the primary types, can all be any MBTI type, although not all combinations are equally likely.)

[wheelchairdoug]

regarding the enneagram, i have only been able to narrow my type down to either 1, 4, 5, or 6. i don't really care much at this point to bother narrowing it down, but i'm sure i'll try to do so at some point in the future when i'm bored and have nothing better to do.

Edit: I think I am a five, although I suppose one is a possibility.

[Void]

An INTP 4 is almost certainly a mistyped INFP.

How so? Can you elaborate in detail?

I always come up as a thinking preference and do not identify at all with INFP profiles I read.

[gardnerj]

I'm a 4w5 and I'm a bit strong on the T

[JollyBard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

INFPs have a lot of it: they want to be INTP so they believe they are. It's a cancer here on INTPc.

Enneagrams are awful anyway.

[Void]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

INFPs have a lot of it: they want to be INTP so they believe they are. It's a cancer here on INTPc.

Enneagrams are awful anyway.

*shrugs* So, anecdotal evidence.

I've noticed 'undercurrent' of suspicion prevalent on the forum about people purposefully or otherwise miss-typing themselves. Indeed the witch hunt style 'F' or 'J' accusatory finger pointing which sometimes accompanies arguments.

It seems to me just as likely that certain INTPs don't like, or otherwise feel threatened by the 'unusual' ends of the INTP-spectrum and try to narrow the boundaries of the INTP personality by pointing to miss-typing so as to keep the INTP population 'pure'.

More likely of course both phenomena happen... and / or MBTI is more flawed that we otherwise suspected.

[edge walker]

How so? Can you elaborate in detail?
More or less by definition, type 4 has a strong Fi focus.


I always come up as a thinking preference and do not identify at all with INFP profiles I read.
The INFP profiles are heavily 9w1-coloured. I've talked to two INFP 4w5s about this and neither identifies with the profiles very much. Both of them have a strong rational thinker streak and would probably pass for Ts to most people.


It seems to me just as likely that certain INTPs don't like, or otherwise feel threatened by the 'unusual' ends of the INTP-spectrum and try to narrow the boundaries of the INTP personality by pointing to miss-typing so as to keep the INTP population 'pure'.
Ironically, quite a few of the vocal type witch-hunters are themselves mistaken about being INTP...

[Void]

Assuming you are correct I see no reason to prefer to consider an error in the MBTI typing over an error in the enneagram typing.

I would undertake further testing but I cannot discount my inability to inadvertently influence my own results.

[Quad]

In my opinion the T/F axis is one of the weakest points of the MBTI. As far as I can tell I use both Ti and Fi functions frequently.

Enneagram 4's are described as having the "basic desire" for self understanding and a "basic fear" of being defective. This seems like an Introverted-Feeling thought process.

I think T/F questions on the MBTI are lousy at best. So if you think the enneagram 4 describes you well... then you are probably INFP. Both tests are imperfect but I think the enneagram does a better job of handling the T/F axis and its complexities.

Edit: just found this 4w5 description on another forum:

"4w5s tend to be more moody than 4w3s, with a rebellious, antisocial streak. They also tend to be more intellectual, a 4w5 INFP could pass for an INTP on the surface, but beneath this cool veneer is a whirlwind of emotional turbulence. Due to their intellect they are often avid readers, craving a constant stream of information. They are very unique and hate to be put into categories, at the same time this brazen originality causes them to feel like an outsider, even among people of the same ennegream/mbti type. Most have a strong need for an artistic outlet. While reserved, they are also very opinionated. Their opinions are just as unique as them - and not always in tune with mainstream society. At times they become more light-hearted, and enjoy the company of people -- but they have less need for social acceptance than a 4w3. But the 4w5 doesn't care, they know they shuffle to the beat of a different drummer - and defiantly march against the tide. "

[YHWH]

"4w5s tend to be more moody than 4w3s, with a rebellious, antisocial streak. They also tend to be more intellectual, a 4w5 INFP could pass for an INTP on the surface, but beneath this cool veneer is a whirlwind of emotional turbulence. Due to their intellect they are often avid readers, craving a constant stream of information. They are very unique and hate to be put into categories, at the same time this brazen originality causes them to feel like an outsider, even among people of the same ennegream/mbti type. Most have a strong need for an artistic outlet. While reserved, they are also very opinionated. Their opinions are just as unique as them - and not always in tune with mainstream society. At times they become more light-hearted, and enjoy the company of people -- but they have less need for social acceptance than a 4w3. But the 4w5 doesn't care, they know they shuffle to the beat of a different drummer - and defiantly march against the tide. "

Hah, sounds pretty accurate for me, except that I really despise people who claim being too unique to be understood, they're usually pretentious attention whores.

[kali]

In my opinion the T/F axis is one of the weakest points of the MBTI. As far as I can tell I use both Ti and Fi functions frequently.

Enneagram 4's are described as having the "basic desire" for self understanding and a "basic fear" of being defective. This seems like an Introverted-Feeling thought process.

I think T/F questions on the MBTI are lousy at best. So if you think the enneagram 4 describes you well... then you are probably INFP. Both test are imperfect but I think the enneagram does a better job of handling the T/F axis and its complexities.

If you find the T/F distinction weak, then how can you pinpoint an enneagram 4 as correlative to F? Sounds contradictory to me.

I've always tested as a 5, but looking back, I am definitely a 4w5.

[Bking]

I am a 7 (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeSeven.asp).

[Quad]

If you find the T/F distinction weak, then how can you pinpoint an enneagram 4 as correlative to F? Sounds contradictory to me.


Yeah I agree that it does sound that way.

I am saying that I do not find it surprising that people who test as INTPs would actually be INFPs.. or "INxPs".... But if you are trying to "break the tie" so to speak... Enneagram 4 might help do that.

On the other hand... biases probably spread from MBTI to the Enneagram system and vice versa... knowing your type, or thinking you know your type might coach you to answer in a way that affirms that belief.

[Violet]

tested as 4W5

[Risingson]

Inspired by this thread, I did some extensive research and it turns out that I might in fact be an INFP, and not an INTP. (yes, I am new to all this)

Research continues.

[Violet]

To be honest I didn't find the enneagram all that... apt. I kept getting different results. However I'm not very knowledgable in that area either.

[Void]

Edit: just found this 4w5 description on another forum:

"4w5s tend to be more moody than 4w3s, with a rebellious, antisocial streak. They also tend to be more intellectual, a 4w5 INFP could pass for an INTP on the surface, but beneath this cool veneer is a whirlwind of emotional turbulence. Due to their intellect they are often avid readers, craving a constant stream of information. They are very unique and hate to be put into categories, at the same time this brazen originality causes them to feel like an outsider, even among people of the same ennegream/mbti type. Most have a strong need for an artistic outlet. While reserved, they are also very opinionated. Their opinions are just as unique as them - and not always in tune with mainstream society. At times they become more light-hearted, and enjoy the company of people -- but they have less need for social acceptance than a 4w3. But the 4w5 doesn't care, they know they shuffle to the beat of a different drummer - and defiantly march against the tide. "

Hmm... I've been thinking about this a fair bit and it is true that I identify with the description.

Did you find it from here:
http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/7473-type-4w5.html

That 4w5 INFP can easily pass as a INTP however must work both ways so I'm not completely convinced.

I am open to more analyses.

I would say, if true, every INFP description I've read has been rubbish as I do not relate at all.

I do wonder if I am not a 5w4 with a strong 4 wing.

[whytiger]

I don't see any good reason given why INFP=type 4. Those who have been claiming have given no explanation at all. Enneagrams and personalities measure different things. The type 4 enneagram is motivated by a sense of uniqueness while the INFP tends to make decisions based on personal values. These are different things. You can make decisions based on logical principles (Ti) and still be motivated by a sense of uniqueness. I think it's important that definitions not be smeared out because the type 4 INTP does not fit some ideal form of INTP.

[edge walker]

Enneagrams and personalities measure different things.
Yes, but they aren't completely independent. In personality were a text, MBTI would be its style and Enneagram its subject

You don't write legal documents in iambic pentameter, nor love letters on a tabulation sheet.

[edge walker]

The type 4 enneagram is motivated by a sense of uniqueness while the INFP tends to make decisions based on personal values. These are different things. You can make decisions based on logical principles (Ti) and still be motivated by a sense of uniqueness.
4s are motivated by a sense of lacking nurture and an envy of people who seem to not have that lack. They subconsciously turn to uniqueness as a resignatory strategy to attract that nurture. Objectivity is anything but their innate preoccupation -- that would defeat the strategy in the first place -- though they can certainly identify with it on a more conscious level, which especially w5s may.


You can make decisions based on logical principles (Ti)
All introverted judgement makes decisions based on logical principles; Fi included. The principles are constructed differently, but the approach is the same. Ts are no more rational than Fs and Fs no more irrational than Ts.

[whytiger]

4s are motivated by a sense of lacking nurture and an envy of people who seem to not have that lack. They subconsciously turn to uniqueness as a resignatory strategy to attract that nurture. Objectivity is anything but their innate preoccupation -- that would defeat the strategy in the first place -- though they can certainly identify with it on a more conscious level, which especially w5s may.

I don't see that interpretation from this:


Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."
Taken from here (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeFour.asp). Your description sounds more like type 2, since type 2's are most concerned with being loved. Can you explain how lacking nurture has to do with seeking an identity?



All introverted judgement makes decisions based on logical principles; Fi included. The principles are constructed differently, but the approach is the same. Ts are no more rational than Fs and Fs no more irrational than Ts.

When I say logical principles, I mean objective logical principles. If I meant Fi, I would say values principles.

So let me suggest a theory for how an INTP can be enneagram 4. A very introverted INTP will have a strong Si (generally having practiced introverted functions more than a more extroverted INTP). Si relates to sensing the internal state. A type 4 is very sensitive to his/her internal state. So more likely the Si belonging to the INFP and the INTP is more responsible than Fi. The difference between how the INFP and INTP deal with that internal state relates to the dominant function. The INFP must work emotions through his/her values system. The INTP must work emotions through his/her logical system. The Si, in essence, nags at the enneagram type 4 so much that it's impossible to deal with anything until it is satisfied.

I think though that this thread has convinced me that I'm a 3w4 not a 4w3. I'm much more concerned with success and achievement than uniqueness.

[gardnerj]

I think though that this thread has convinced me that I'm a 3w4 not a 4w3. I'm much more concerned with success and achievement than uniqueness.

Well so am I and I'm a 4. The NT makes you concerned with success

[abathur]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=20745

I don't put too much stock in any specific typing system because of the reasonably high rate of misidentification (I haven't been too active here or in the world of typology for a few years now, but if I remember, doesn't even the MBTI admit something like 25% misidentified by taking the test alone? And that's the official test--not the knock-offs most of us have taken.

Nonetheless, I agree with the skepticism of the "INTP" 4w5. Even as someone who generally tests 5w4 (albeit 5w4 just barely beats out 5w6) I still find myself wondering if I'm not an INFP. If I was testing as 4w5 I think I'd move up from occasionally/somewhat skeptical of my identification of INTP over INFP to often/significantly skeptical. I won't tell you you're an INFP, but I will say that, as other posters have mentioned, our upbringing can significantly influence the person we hope to project and, therefore, how we vote on these little tests.

As a guy who's generally only been praised for scholastic/intellectual accomplishments from an emotionally invalidating family, I realize I have an enormous self-interest in carefully guarding this part of my self-concept, because it keeps a lot of problems at bay. If you can, I'd both avoid investing too much in your type (i.e. don't go making a bunch of life decisions based on your type, at least not unless you reach a strong conclusion down the road), and (as others suggest) carefully examine type profiles--especially the negative aspects of a type. A lot of the type descriptions highlight the positive fulfillment of a type and make it easy to identify with a type that *can* have positive qualities in line with our ideal self concept. Your failures, and your unhealthy behaviors--where do they fall?

[whytiger]

Well so am I and I'm a 4. The NT makes you concerned with success

It doesn't really matter if you're NT or not. It follows from the definition. If you are type 4 you care more about uniqueness than success or achievement; if you are type 3 you care more about success and having worth. I have a lot of 4 traits and I get into these funks where I go on these soul-searching quests and become very emotional. I become quite disgusted with myself at these times and wish more my logical faculties to return, however. When I am myself, I am pursuing projects that are of importance to people, and this is my single greatest motivating factor at work, that I be the "indespensible man". That's a sure sign of a 3. A 4 will be more concerned about being the "special man", recognized not for his importance and worth but his unique identity. I could handle not being unique but I can't handle not being important.

[edge walker]

I don't see that interpretation from this:


Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."

Taken from here (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeFour.asp).
Did you miss the bit I underlined, mayhap?


Your description sounds more like type 2, since type 2's are most concerned with being loved. Can you explain how lacking nurture has to do with seeking an identity?
How about reading further down the very page you quoted?


While it is true that Fours often feel different from others, they do not really want to be alone. They may feel socially awkward or self-conscious, but they deeply wish to connect with people who understand them and their feelings. The "romantics" of the Enneagram, they long for someone to come into their lives and appreciate the secret self that they have privately nurtured and hidden from the world. If, over time, such validation remains out of reach, Fours begin to build their identity around how unlike everyone else they are. The outsider therefore comforts herself by becoming an insistent individualist: everything must be done on her own, in her own way, on her own terms. Fours' mantra becomes "I am myself. Nobody understands me. I am different and special," while they secretly wish they could enjoy the easiness and confidence that others seem to enjoy.

Which is just what I said in my post above.

[whytiger]

Did you miss the bit I underlined, mayhap?


How about reading further down the very page you quoted?


While it is true that Fours often feel different from others, they do not really want to be alone. They may feel socially awkward or self-conscious, but they deeply wish to connect with people who understand them and their feelings. The "romantics" of the Enneagram, they long for someone to come into their lives and appreciate the secret self that they have privately nurtured and hidden from the world. If, over time, such validation remains out of reach, Fours begin to build their identity around how unlike everyone else they are. The outsider therefore comforts herself by becoming an insistent individualist: everything must be done on her own, in her own way, on her own terms. Fours' mantra becomes "I am myself. Nobody understands me. I am different and special," while they secretly wish they could enjoy the easiness and confidence that others seem to enjoy.

Which is just what I said in my post above.

No, I saw that. I think that the difference is the interpretation of how important the nurturer or sympathetic person(s) is. It seems to me that the main emphasis on the enneagram 4 is on the sense of uniqueness, even though they long for a rescuer, the sense of uniqueness comes first.

Hmm, I don't identify with that at all too. I like people who are similar to me. Who doesn't like to be around somebody who understands them? I certainly feel like an outsider in most situations, but I don't long for a rescuer nor do I feel that I have a secret self to share with anybody. In fact, doesn't the notion of a secret self conflict with the unstable self image of the 4?

[edge walker]

No, I saw that. I think that the difference is the interpretation of how important the nurturer or sympathetic person(s) is. It seems to me that the main emphasis on the enneagram 4 is on the sense of uniqueness, even though they long for a rescuer, the sense of uniqueness comes first.
It winds up coming first because they don't hold out hope that a rescuer actually exists. And it's the flip side of (and becomes a substitute for) a sense of defectiveness or incompleteness (which motivates envy at other people, who just seem to have whatever the 4 feels is missing).


Hmm, I don't identify with that at all too. I like people who are similar to me. Who doesn't like to be around somebody who understands them? I certainly feel like an outsider in most situations, but I don't long for a rescuer nor do I feel that I have a secret self to share with anybody. In fact, doesn't the notion of a secret self conflict with the unstable self image of the 4?
The secret self is an idealised self-image, or even a fantasy self. It can be far removed from the actual identity.

(Oh, and since you mentioned 3w4 -- the more introverted ones may very well feel like outsiders. There's a more exclusive/aloof feel to the w4 side than the shiny for-everyone vibe of w2.)

[iwakar]

Are there any famous INTP artists?

I have sometimes thought that the eclipsed Poet/Painter Stan Rice (http://stanrice.com/) (Anne Rice's late husband) was a Type 4 INTP... but how to be sure? I suspect his six year old daughter's death jarred his art into motion.

His book of poems Whiteboy (http://stanrice.com/poetry-whiteboy.html#excerpt) holds the promise of indicative samples:

FORGETTING HER BIRTHDAY

Yesterday was her birthday
and I simply lay with her birthday

and I simply used her birthday
and turned once in the night

without making a wish
and blew out her hair.

(I have The Radiance of Pigs (http://stanrice.com/poetry-radiancepigs.html#excerpt) and Fear Itself (http://stanrice.com/poetry-fearitself.html#excerpt). Great stuff.)

I'm not much familiar with his paintings:
http://stanrice.com/images/firstSquare_EARLY_1RO.jpg
http://stanrice.com/images/firstSquare_MIDDLE_1RO.jpg
http://stanrice.com/images/firstSquare_LATE_1RO.jpg

My fave poem of his is "Past Master." Here is a link (http://stanrice.com/readingsauthor.html) to videos of him reading his poetry.

[TheBecoming]

Yeah.

[qualia]

It's not 100% clear whether I'm a 4 with both wings strongly expressed, or a 3. But I think it's 4

[kali]

I was definitely a 5 but now I identify more with 4. Envy is my biggest weakness. I bubble green about 50 times a day. And I have a love hate relationship with everything.

[Professor Chaos]

I would more or less identify myself as a 4 as well. Although, the dynamic of the relationship between the type 4 and 5 feed into each other more so than any other combination that I can think within the enneagram personality model; so, it can be hard to tell which of the types is the driving force, at least in my case.

[joffit]

I'm a 4... I think? Scores: 4 2 2 8 6 7 1 1 5

And I'm an artist.

But I've never been happy with my Enneagram results any of the times I've taken it. The dichotomies they force on you are so wrong.

I do not consider myself unique (well, no more than anyone else), I'm not afraid of being commonplace, I'm emotionally bland (if not blank), and I rarely feel envy. None of those fears on the list really stand out to me (isolation and vulnerability sound rather nice, actually). I like perfection freedom truth and especially omniscience... but I scored third in that category. Meh...

Really, the definition for 4 much more aptly describes my obnoxious teenage years.

I might have some input on the INFP debate. I think in a very kinesthetic way. (In fact, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me the name for how the heck I process thoughts by moving feelings around inside my body.) That might account for some confusion.