I am a failure and a fuck up

[working title]

Anyway, getting laid isn't like getting all the medals in Star Fox 64. You don't get a cool new start screen for your efforts.

Damn it.

[Macrophage]

What the hell is this? I looked at the first page, and the last page, and I'm trying to understand would could be inbetween.

[MacGuffin]

What the hell is this? I looked at the first page, and the last page, and I'm trying to understand would could be inbetween.

As ENTJs are the least NT of the NTs, you wouldn't understand.

[Macrophage]

As ENTJs are the least NT of the NTs, you wouldn't understand.

I'm gonna take that to mean everything between the first page and last page is crap.

[Anonymous]

As ENTJs are the least NT of the NTs, you wouldn't understand.

I kind of think of them as the most. Like, what you get when you combine the other three.

[MacGuffin]

I'm gonna take that to mean everything between the first page and last page is crap.

Like I said.


I kind of think of them as the most. Like, what you get when you combine the other three.

You get a near SJ.

[Bongmaster General]

What the hell is this? I looked at the first page, and the last page, and I'm trying to understand would could be inbetween.

If you follow these links (to the right of the name in quote boxes)...:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif

...you'll find that the last page's contents are only about three posts removed from a quote of the OP.


I kind of think of them as the most. Like, what you get when you combine the other three.

Nah. Pure NT is about introversion and the withholding of judgment when dealing with the outside world. INTJs are a hybridized yet still functionally viable variant due to their outward judging distancing them even further from society than we are in some cases and while ENTPs are less in touch with all that is Logic, they make up for it by helping us get laid and introducing us to drugs. ENTJs are like what the band Bush is to the 90s "grunge" genre.

[Ariel]

Anyway, getting laid isn't like getting all the medals in Star Fox 64. You don't get a cool new start screen for your efforts. Also, deep emotional attachments, blah blah blah, whatever.

But getting laid could be compared to getting the best Starfox 64 ending.

[Jynweythek]

But getting laid could be compared to getting the best Starfox 64 ending.

[deleted]

Oh god I didn't even see that horrible pun

[Scholar25]

Wow this thread is like the ultimate dead end of human existence.

And here I am.

25 year old virgin.

Enough said.

[kali]

Wow this thread is like the ultimate dead end of human existence.

And here I am.

25 year old virgin.

Enough said.

You going to change your username everytime you age a bit?

[INThePooper]

i'm looking for the thread where macguffin posts about how he sorted his life out. does it exist? i cant find it.

i like to read about other people's successes.

[Jennywocky]

i'm looking for the thread where macguffin posts about how he sorted his life out. does it exist? i cant find it..

No, you were imagining that one.

[MacGuffin]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.
Damn four years and I'm still adding to the list!

I won't whine about it though (much). :p

[Jynweythek]

Damn four years and I'm still adding to the list!

I won't whine about it though (much). :p

Did your kid give you the finger or something?

[MacGuffin]

Did your kid give you the finger or something?

I'd be overjoyed if a 5 month old baby could do that!

[stateofstatic]

Kudos for this thread.

Took a typography test a years ago that said I was INTP, some girl I been dating the past few weeks asked me to take another one with the same result. She then said "Sorry, I'm an INTJ...I can't see you anymore because of the likely future complications."

Confused, I started a google-hunt for explanations and ended up here. What a revelation! I've only ever related to 6-8 people in my life, and now I see a forum brimming with topics I've internalized for the majority of my adult years due to that barrier of understanding that's existed for so long.

School: Skated through, just barely passing from elementary to high school. Figured my 1560 SAT would take care of everything not realizing I had never developed study habits. Who needs them, right? It's all just tests and essays at the college level, or so I thought...the 21 credits and 300 level calc classes my first semester probably didn't help my confidence either. :stupid: After dropping out, I took a dozen or so community college courses and never found anything that engaged my attention, deciding school wasn't for me.

Work (in order from age 13 to now): Dishwasher, Busser, Server, UPS, Tech Support, Cell Phone Sales, Unemployment, Music Producer, Traveling Musician, FedEx, B2B Computer Sales, Unemployment, Freelance Photographer. Sales may seem out of place, but I realized it was a good skill to learn to be portable (find a job to pay the bills anywhere I go), that it's easy to "act" the part of an extrovert for money, it requires no qualifications more than other sales experience, and is the only profession you can collect benefits from when getting fired for performance, which as an INTP is practically inevitable.

Relationships: I ignore my family except when they are really persistent about hanging out, I have a few close friends that have become distant over the years do to my own "hermiting", any other acquaintance is simply that and generally not worth placing effort on to expand the relationship, romantically I've had 4 long-term (over a year) experiments that in all but one case ended because I sabotaged them subconsiously to get free of deeper commitment and progress.

Glad to know my sinking ship has more passengers! :theclap: So does this site help anyone make positive change, maybe even instill the desire for greater self-discipline? I've come to the conclusion that those should be the two general points I need to focus on and apply to multiple facets of my life.

I think I will stop by more often...

-Chase

[durentu]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let's go down the list shall we?

ok



Academic career? Fucked that up

by who's standards? the institution or yours?



Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

by who's standards? the society's or yours?



Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

pain is necessary. Some aren't willing to face pain as stimuli to change for the better. It's a way of showing that you care.



Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2328/2037246574_470164a9ec_o.jpg



Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.

---------------

realistically, I suggest that you have a look at your standards. Are they yours or were they imposed on you? With this frustrations and perhaps onset of depression, it's time to inspect the fundamentals and see if it's where you really want to be. Reading the ugly duckling story helps me in these times.




"To be nobody but yourself in a world that's doing its best to make you somebody else, is to fight the hardest battle you are ever going to fight. Never stop fighting." - EE Cummings

[MacGuffin]

...um thanks?

Perhaps you should invent a time machine and travel back to 2005 to tell me these things when they could've helped.

[mgb]

...um thanks?

Perhaps you should invent a time machine and travel back to 2005 to tell me these things when they could've helped.

Each post, more painful to read than the last.

[MacGuffin]

Each post, more painful to read than the last.
I leave this thread up (no matter how much it makes me cringe) so that we don't get dozens of similar threads. Maybe it helps, I dunno.

[indie]

MacGuff, what we need for this thread is a strip feature. That is, we need to be able to strip all your actual posts out of the bazillions of comments. I am trying to find some cohesion in your story, but all I can find are the comments. Scrolling up and down looking for thoughtful-looking avatar dude (should I be embarrassed to admit I don't know who?) is giving me headache.

Edit: Somebody call mackstann! errrrrmmmmm. . . . garack.

[MacGuffin]

MacGuff, what we need for this thread is a strip feature. That is, we need to be able to strip all your actual posts out of the bazillions of comments. I am trying to find some cohesion in your story, but all I can find are the comments. Scrolling up and down looking for thoughtful-looking avatar dude (should I be embarrassed to admit I don't know who?) is giving me headache.

Edit: Somebody call mackstann! errrrrmmmmm. . . . garack.

Just search the thread by username.

[indie]

Just search the thread by username.

Yeah, I'm an idiot. I'd forgotten how stupidly non-intuitive vBulletin is.

[rainfall]

So have you changed, mac?

[Scarlett letters]

It's a long story, not over yet, and too private to post here.

Maybe in a week or two.

Doesn't this 4yr long tease have CLASSIC status yet?

EDIT: Ah, sensotard moment.

Still, it's long overdue an update, Guffy.

[MacGuffin]

Doesn't this 4yr long tease have CLASSIC status yet?

EDIT: Ah, sensotard moment.

Still, it's long overdue an update, Guffy.

UPDATE: I am still failing and fucking up in even more spectacular ways.

[Scarlett letters]

^FAIL.

What was the "way you never expected" in which your life improved?

[MacGuffin]

^FAIL.

What was the "way you never expected" in which your life improved?

My marriage got better. Most people, nay nearly all people, in that situation just divorce and get on with their lives.

[Scarlett letters]

My marriage got better. Most people, nay nearly all people, in that situation just divorce and get on with their lives.


UPDATE: I am still failing and fucking up in even more spectacular ways.

Does not compute.

[Ivy]

I would assume non-marital ways.

[MacGuffin]

Does not compute.

I'm branching out to new areas!

[melancholeric]

Does not compute.

I think he's talking about how he fucked up the drug forum the other day.

[Scarlett letters]

^ I was.

[Jynweythek]

UPDATE: I am still failing and fucking up in even more spectacular ways.

Story time...?

[aaronymous]

people are basically the devil in sheeps' clothing.

correction: people are sheep being led by a devil in a nice clothes. if people were the devil, mabe i would like them a bit more, at least they would be more interesting.

[amygdalarium]

You can't possibly be worse than me. I mean, you could, but then you'd probably be too sad to even post about it.

[SmolderingMuffin]

All the fuck up stories... +1 right here.

This is kinda amazing. It gets to where you're sure you're the only one like you...and then you realize you're just all spread out.

[Chunes]

This is exactly what I did.

Life before:

- Fucked off in college and ended up dropping out for a few years
- Stuck at a dead-end job and too apathetic to do anything about it
- Never paid bills on time and forgot to schedule Dr. appointments, etc.
- Made no plans for the future whatsoever
- Was depressed all the time

*Got engaged to an ENTJ*

Life now:

- Back in college at a private school and making a 4.0
- Looking for better jobs with higher pay
- Bills are always paid on time and bank account is well-managed. Even buying a house soon.
- Make all my Dr. visits
- Have long-term plans for the future
- Finally properly diagnosed with depression and on medication to treat it


Now, don't get me wrong, I'm still a pain in the ass, forgetful, late to everything INTP... but life is much easier now :)

God your life sounds absolutely horrible. Your intellect was telling you to go one path and you got arm-twisted into doing the exact opposite.

[Scarlett letters]

ENTJs are the answer to all our problems?

Someone just shoot me now, please.

[Qfwfq]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.

Hey all, first post :)

I can relate to this, and I'm desperate to change my performance in academics before I'm out of 'Get Out of Jail' cards.

I think this is also a strong feeling common to INTP's because of how critical we are about ourselves, and the high standards we hold. Or so I read.

[anneonymous]

Yeah, I know this thread has 500+ posts, but dammit, I want a turn.

Academics: Only got out of elementary school because there wasn't homework. Junior high/high school are a blur of AP classes, homework-65% tests-95%, final grade-B. Luckily, I went to a no-name Midwestern college that believed in the power of homework, so here I sit 15 years later, no degree, still a pile of student loans. I did managed to accumulate 30-40 credit at various institutions to "finish" my degree. Also, I managed to rack up a pile of unpaid tuition bills, so many of those credits have been held hostage for quite some time now.

Career: HA! Once, long ago, I was in a semi-professional clerical job on track to a "real" job. As I generally knew more than my bosses, who had better clerical skills than me, I have managed to climb the rungs to customer service agent. At this rate, I could be assistant fry cook by the time I'm 40.

Credit: HA! HA! Ran in to the ground in college, never to emerge.

Relationships: The few I've had - disastrously formulaic. It starts out with a formerly-socially inept guy who has become a minor wunderkid in his 20s actually being attracted to me. In the middle, we have some holy shit! a guy with a Harvard degree is eventually going to figure out that my fuckupedness extends way beyond the on-the-surface fuckups, and besides, is having a relationship with someone who doesn't know the difference between "beneficent" and "benevolent" really what I want? Then there is some relationship sabotage in the form of extreme apathy, until the guy finally comes to his senses and says WTF? and gets on with life. Years later, I find out how Mr. X is doing, and can only think "how can Mr. X get married/become a father/buy a McMansion when I am STILL so fucked up"? See - fucked up AND sad.

In short, I am quickly starting to resemble Susan Boyle in every area except for vocal ability.

[SpeedSeducer]

Hi. This my first post on this forum.
I feel like I have found my people. Hahahahahaha.
Sort of like a whole bunch of clones of myself.
Have you ever noticed that when you talk to people with the same MTBI personality, it's virtually like you are talking to the same person?

Anyway, we INTP's are born with high IQ's and a tendency to have big dreams and lofty ambitions. We feel like we can do so much. The huge problem is that our personality traits keep us from accomplishing much. The shyness, the being out of touch with reality, the lack of discipline, lack of responsibility, and things like that keep us from getting much of what we want. It's a really dysfunctional set of personality traits which eventually make us feel like we were not made for this world. Our shyness and lack of social skills not only negatively impacts relationships, it also negatively impacts our income just as much, because people don't like to hire and work with people who are not well-socialized. I also hated going to job interviews, so that was another thing that held me back.

I have been doing certain things for myself which may be a good solution in general for all INTP's. Because of these things, my life has been improving.

1. Start an internet business that gives you passive income. We're smart enough and we hate working for other people. Also we sometimes slack off, so the passive income helps when you don't feel like working or you find something else that grabs your interest. Then when you do work, your work serves to increase your income. The book "4 hour work week" by Timothy Ferris is a good place to start. To be self employed, it's not necessary to go to college or have a degree. I work in my underwear all the time (on my computer). Nobody bothers me. I have no bosses breathing down my neck and no irritating coworkers to deal with. I can work any time of day or night. I hate working for other people with a passion. I'll never do it again. My income from my internet business is rock solid secure. I can't be fired. The so-called "bad economy" hasn't hurt my profits. My profits have been going up, because I make them go up. The only downside is I can't socialize at work because I work alone. So if I want to meet people, I have to go out. Being able to start an internet business is a godsend for us INTP's. We can MAKE MONEY without going to a job interview or dealing with people!!!

2. Study massive amounts of self help material. They will teach you how to cope better in this world. I recommend studying materials from Brian Tracy, Napoleon Hill, Dan Kennedy, Harv Eker, and others. Brian Tracy is the best one. Try to do everything he advises. Get as many self help materials as you can and study them all the time until your life starts improving. Then keep studying those materials until your life is as good as you want.

3. For help with females, the pick up artist community has a lot of materials that tell you a lot about women and dealing with them. So hopefully that will help you be more successful with women.

4. Put aside those huge dreams, come back down to earth, and be more realistic. If I won the lottery and could do anything I want, I would probably work on creating artificial intelligence. I have some ideas on that and I feel like I could do it. But I also feel like it would take a lot of time and I wouldn't make any money at it for years, maybe never. I need cash flow to live on. So I am doing an internet business that allows me to use my creative, artistic side and make passive income doing something I like. I outsource all the daily grunt work and I only do the creative work that I like. It's a good deal for me! I love it. It's not as great as creating a working AI, but it's nice.

[Neville]

In short, I am quickly starting to resemble Susan Boyle in every area except for vocal ability.

Enjoy your stay.


blahblahblahblah

Door's that way.

[Qfwfq]

Speed Seducer: good for you. I can see how an internet business is good for INTP's seeing as they are generally anti-social. I also hate working for people, I find it demeaning. Keep it up.

[2hype]

3. For help with females, the pick up artist community has a lot of materials that tell you a lot about women and dealing with them. So hopefully that will help you be more successful with women.

What is it about INTPs and the pick up artist community? :smash:

[nonperson]

PUA - pick up artist!!!!!!!!!!!! That is what it means. I should have googled.

[Kazan]

I think INTPs (myself included) underachieve because of two main reasons:

1) the stated reason...that we are lazy and don't try hard enough, even though we assure everyone that we are "brilliant"
2) and, the underlying reason that we, with our self-assured brilliance, are afraid to fail in a way that displays a lack of ability or intelligence.

I realized this recently, I found myself telling people that I could have gotten A's in all my classes if I had only tried harder...and I realized I was saying that because I was afraid that really I was stupid.

I would avoid doing the work because I actuallyl wanted to fail because of laziness, if only to avoid failure due to just not being good enough.

Maybe I could have achieved those As, but maybe not. Maybe by failing through lack of effort, I have saved my ego from dealing with my own potential lack of ability.

Perhaps this is what some other people have encountered also?

As soon as you realize it, you can overcome it by accepting challenges and not walking away from them because of fear of failure.

[52 Pick-up]

I just stopped by to say that I'm pretty much the shit.

[Kunstvoll Schwein]

I just stopped by to say that I'm pretty much the shit.

An indefinite article might have been more appropriate.

[guerranet]

Same here. I've known that since I was six.

[ Not that you are a fuck-up; but that I was. After all, this is all about me. ]



Claverhouse :ph34r:


No-one is worthless though... Not so long as they can exist, and therefore think about themselves, since it is inevitable that they will ever remain the centre of existence to themselves, and the centre of the universe cannot be worthless.

Well, we don't know they're not worthless for sure. They may very well be.

[guerranet]

Most of us feel like we have not reached our potentials. People who reach their potentials and are still mediocre are the ones who need to be pitied.

Talking about change here, Lee. Change and death are only the same thing in tarot readings. Mac is stressed and showing his shadow. We are all allowed to be occasionally consumed by the allogical.

Sorry but as INTPs, we're supposed to point out logic errors. So the word "allogical" could be "illogical"

[Delilah]

Well, we don't know they're not worthless for sure. They may very well be.


Sorry but as INTPs, we're supposed to point out logic errors. So the word "allogical" could be "illogical"

As in the multi-quote feature?

[guerranet]

Is it okay to laugh? And is there such a thing as an INTP who doesn't feel like a fuckup?

If the world understood us better. And if they weren't so stupid. We might feel more compelled to do better things in life. I think part of the reason for our underachievement stems from us feeling relegated and then why could we really be blamed for not giving a fuck?

But, I guess, as you mature you learn to balance these issues and accept others as we long (if we in fact do) for acceptance ourselves.


As in the multi-quote feature?

Uhh!

Hey, Delilah, that was my long ago former psycho girlfriend phone sex operator name. Just brought some memories.


As in the multi-quote feature?

Sorry, forgot to ask if you were a virgo. Are you a virgo?

[MacGuffin]

Sorry but as INTPs, we're supposed to point out logic errors. So the word "allogical" could be "illogical"

You fool (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=3087)!

[guerranet]

Ok, I looked it up. Thanks genius. Actually, that's why I said 'could.' Besides it was mispelled 'allogical,' should have been 'alogical'

a·log·i·cal (-lj-kl)
adj.
Beyond or outside the bounds of logic.

il·log·i·cal (-lj-kl)
adj.
1. Contradicting or disregarding the principles of logic.
2. Without logic; senseless.

[guerranet]

Thanks for the link.

[stuck]

Well well hello there thread.

You've been waiting for this moment, I see, coiled up on your divan in your flowing purple robe. You've been drinking in the heady mash of my percieved success, watching it like a tetherball, knowing it would round the corner and come back as hard as I batted it away.

Well here it is, the long slow failure that will, in time, define my life. How about an MBTI metaphor for the sake of this board? I'm turning into the worst, dumbest ENTJ on the planet, the one who makes the shitty decisions, who has no tolerance for failure, no soul, no care for anything other than domination and efficiency. He's a failure too, just like the INTP version. This one is, however, a fucking prick.

Reasons?

I would say the main reason is having Los Angeles coiled outside my door like a billion pound platinum rapist. Skid row is about ten miles away from me as the crow flies, about a month away by paycheck. My prefered method of travel will be an alcohol-drenched husk of myself, the hood ornament is my soul, fashioned of little, stupid, pathetic words.

Thanks, world. BFFs 4eva!

[Phreon]

It helps to take to heart that as an INTP, even when you're screwing the pooch on an epic scale, you still have your head screwed on better than 98% of the folks riding this dirt-ball floating through space

Phreon

[Jonah Davids]

It helps to take to heart that as an INTP, even when you're screwing the pooch on an epic scale, you still have your head screwed on better than 98% of the folks riding this dirt-ball floating through space

Phreon

Yes. This enables us to truly comprehend the fullness of the horror and tragedy of our lives while we watch, helpless to change.



It's like savoring a fine wine, and when you vomit it out later, being able to still taste the characteristic flavor. Yes. Sweet, sweet pain. How I love for you to dribble down my chin, and out my nose.

[purveyor of truth]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.
Wow this is an old thread, hmm not going to read the whole thing either. I like you Mac, youre no failure, I'd tell you if your were.

[monkey]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all.
Amen, bro.

[Johnny]

Fucking things up gets to be one of those things from which not even I get to be immune, it seems.

So far as I can tell no one got killed over any of my shit, though. Eat that!

[whitfan]

I'm 25 next Wednesday and have achieved nothing. So lets run through it all.

Married 4 years, still live with the in-laws. Have a career but don't earn enough to support us both in our own place. Wife has no job. I need to retrain and stop doing a job that makes me want to go postal, and because of medical reasons, but can't get that off the ground. Dropped out of HS so now I have to go through the hoops to get back into uni and do what I want for a change. And im sick and fucking tired of being patronised and belittled at work by a bunch of J type Lackey's. Oh and the travel I want to do but can't afford won't happen because my wife has decided, despite flying all over the country domestically, that flying internationally is too scary. *Sigh*

Anyway, my rant is over.

[jyng1]

I'm 25 next Wednesday and have achieved nothing. So lets run through it all.

Married 4 years, still live with the in-laws. Have a career but don't earn enough to support us both in our own place. Wife has no job. I need to retrain and stop doing a job that makes me want to go postal, and because of medical reasons, but can't get that off the ground. Dropped out of HS so now I have to go through the hoops to get back into uni and do what I want for a change. And im sick and fucking tired of being patronised and belittled at work by a bunch of J type Lackey's. Oh and the travel I want to do but can't afford won't happen because my wife has decided, despite flying all over the country domestically, that flying internationally is too scary. *Sigh*

Anyway, my rant is over.

Special entry for mature students dude;

http://www.adelaide.edu.au/student/admission/special_entry/

Get on it...

[whitfan]

yeah thats the path ill be taking. just trying to arrange work and study etc.

[Ming]

- Runs around gathering all the INTPs -

I'm sure everyone has their failures; myself included. Yes I've been in depression as well, but I've come out of it..

Believe. That's really all the advice I can give..

[chuxvom]

Yeah, it's fucked.
Too little, too late.
Too much, too soon.

[dunno]

God damn it, MacGuffin. Maybe if you stopped considering success in such boring, conventional terms. You have a real appreciation for poetry. And poetry is the point of civilization. The real fuck ups are those who, too busy getting paid, go through life ignorant of the ecstasies and insights that Shakespeare can bring you to. Don't become a consumerist; don't resent consumerism either. Just appreciate it as a curiosity. But god damn it, MacGuffin, fuck you for thinking you're a fuck up.

[silly sally]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.

i know this post is old but damn with that avatar it's just too much.

[MacGuffin]

God damn it, MacGuffin. Maybe if you stopped considering success in such boring, conventional terms. You have a real appreciation for poetry. And poetry is the point of civilization. The real fuck ups are those who, too busy getting paid, go through life ignorant of the ecstasies and insights that Shakespeare can bring you to. Don't become a consumerist; don't resent consumerism either. Just appreciate it as a curiosity. But god damn it, MacGuffin, fuck you for thinking you're a fuck up.


i know this post is old but damn with that avatar it's just too much.

Uh.... thanks?

[manza]

Fired, no job. Dropped out of school. Left my town and everything I love behind me. Depressed, despondent, little hope for success. Boy, am I winner.

[Works]

Fired, no job. Dropped out of school. Left my town and everything I love behind me. Depressed, despondent, little hope for success. Boy, am I winner.

I want to say something that will cheer you up or put things into perspective, but it feels as though all my words are ill suited for the task. Maybe I'll buy you some stock in the cliche market, because that's all that's coming to me right now.

Sorry.

[Eef]

A sophomore college student here, and based on what I've seen, felt, heard so far, I think I'll fuck up too after I graduate, that is if I ever even graduate. I hope I will, that'll be some achievement for a motivation-less and stuck-up indecisive human being as I.

[djm]

Fired, no job. Dropped out of school. Left my town and everything I love behind me. Depressed, despondent, little hope for success. Boy, am I winner.

It's not circumstances that make someone a failure, rather it's how they deal with them. It's the most normal thing in the world to feel the way you describe given the state of 'thrownness' you find yourself in, but so far as I can see you are slowly going about rebuilding and no doubt will do so very well.

In other words, you have no place posting in this thread.

[wote]

It's hard to find what value we both can and want to bring into the world, isn't it? In scientific or cultural endeavours, environmental preservation/restoration, educating people, and so on, there's so much we could do... but that presupposes time, money, and opportunity of course. o_O;

[Jennywocky]

It's not circumstances that make someone a failure, rather it's how they deal with them. It's the most normal thing in the world to feel the way you describe given the state of 'thrownness' you find yourself in, but so far as I can see you are slowly going about rebuilding and no doubt will do so very well. In other words, you have no place posting in this thread.

I assume that was done as a stroke, but this thread has never been about the reality of being a failure, it's always been about feeling and perceiving oneself as a failure regardless. People seem to just need to dump their bad feelings about their lives, to get it in the open, then start resolving the issues they've exposed and moving forward.

[Scarlett letters]

this thread has never been about the reality of being a failure, it's always been about feeling and perceiving oneself as a failure

What's the difference?

[Stigmata]

What's the difference?

Yeah I really don't see a difference either.

[Jennywocky]

What's the difference?

Lol... the INTP cliche.

It makes a difference in how you RESPOND to it.

If you think it's someone misperceiving themselves as as screwup, then you try to give them reasons why they are not. You see it as an intellectual puzzle, and you're providing the "correct perception" so they can reorient themselves to seeing themselves correctly.

If you think it's someone who is dealing with feelings about themselves, generally you STFU and let them talk, and give them space and encouragement... but don't focus on negating their feelings. You accept they FEEL that way, while they still actually be very aware of what the factual truth is.

[Scarlett letters]

Lol... the INTP cliche.

It makes a difference in how you RESPOND to it.

If you think it's someone misperceiving themselves as as screwup, then you try to give them reasons why they are not. You see it as an intellectual puzzle, and you're providing the "correct perception" so they can reorient themselves to seeing themselves correctly.

If you think it's someone who is dealing with feelings about themselves, generally you STFU and let them talk, and give them space and encouragement... but don't focus on negating their feelings. You accept they FEEL that way, while they still actually be very aware of what the factual truth is.
No. What I mean is, I don't ever regard people as "failures". The idea that people can be "losers" and "winners" is something peculiar to US culture.

Any perception of oneself as a failure is a mis-perception, IMO, whereas you seem to imply that there are "actual failures" vs "fake failures" and I'm wondering how you'd differentiate between the two?

[Karl]

No. What I mean is, I don't ever regard people as "failures". The idea that people can be "losers" and "winners" is something peculiar to US culture.

Any perception of oneself as a failure is a mis-perception, IMO, whereas you seem to imply that there are "actual failures" vs "fake failures" and I'm wondering how you'd differentiate between the two?

I notice most people who think they're SO HORRIBLE are very clearly holding themselves to a different standard than other people, which is a kind of egoism in itself. Though, if you try to point this out to most people (at least in the US), it gets a bad reaction.

I guess this isn't the normal way to deal with depression but it worked for me even if I'm not bubbling with confidence and a sense of self importance now.

[Delilah]

No. What I mean is, I don't ever regard people as "failures". The idea that people can be "losers" and "winners" is something peculiar to US culture.
?


Oh do shut up, you condescending ass.
You think sitting in the corner and not showing your hand whilst looking down your nose at everyone else makes you somehow superior?
It just makes you a loser. Even if you're INTP.


Huh.

[Scarlett letters]

^When in Rome...

ETA. My reasons for calling someone a loser have little to do with typical notions of "success".

[Jennywocky]

No. What I mean is, I don't ever regard people as "failures". The idea that people can be "losers" and "winners" is something peculiar to US culture.

So? What's that have to do with this? I don't tend to look at people as failures either. But I recognize sometimes people perceive themselves as such.


Any perception of oneself as a failure is a mis-perception, IMO, whereas you seem to imply that there are "actual failures" vs "fake failures" and I'm wondering how you'd differentiate between the two?

See bolded above.

I see strategies as failures, not people per se.

So if I distinguish at all, it's merely to delineate between a behavior that will lead to future contentment with oneself and the sort of success one desires, versus a behavior that just keeps one in the muck and unable to grow and move forward.


I notice most people who think they're SO HORRIBLE are very clearly holding themselves to a different standard than other people, which is a kind of egoism in itself. Though, if you try to point this out to most people (at least in the US), it gets a bad reaction.

I agree with that -- it's a form of self-absorption and egoism. We're expecting more of ourselves than others... as if they're not capable of it but somehow we are? Everything is still being directed at me, me, me. I think successful behaviors will stop aiming so much at Self and start being outward directed; that is where problems get solved and where we hone who we are and where we use our power to change our lives. Too much introspection and self-focus is sort of narcissistic and an escape from having to do the risky, energy-consuming work of changing your life.


Huh.


^When in Rome... ETA. My reasons for calling someone a loser have little to do with typical notions of "success".

Gee, nice dodge.

I think the best point taken here is just that you should stop reading other people's texts so tightly if you're going to be so loose with your own comments.

[Scarlett letters]

Gee, nice dodge.Ditto.


I think the best point taken here is just that you should stop reading other people's texts so tightly if you're going to be so loose with your own comments.Um. Did I ask for a lecture?
I was asking what your perception of "the reality of being a failure" vs "perceiving oneself as a failure" was. I still have no idea.
I can tell you mine if you want, using the OP as a reference.

[Jennywocky]

Um. Did I ask for a lecture?

It was free, which is a boon in this economy -- don't knock it.


I was asking what your perception of "the reality of being a failure" vs "perceiving oneself as a failure" was. I still have no idea.

Then I guess I've failed to teach you, and you'll have to invest a bit and figure it out a different way.


I can tell you mine if you want, using the OP as a reference.

I don't know how to read that.

If you actually have an investment to make, feel free, though.

[kble]

I was lectured yesterday for not feeling like a failure and a fuck-up. I've never seen self-esteem issues sink to quite that level.

[cripple]

I was lectured yesterday for not feeling like a failure and a fuck-up. I've never seen self-esteem issues sink to quite that level.
Well, be careful. They only want you to be prepared.
what goes up must come down

[Qfwfq]

I don't see the problem here, bums seem quite happy.

[Karl]

That's just so you give them money.

[Scarlett letters]

Then I guess I've failed to teach you

Seems condescension is contagious around here... :rolleyes:

[Madrigal]

The idea that people can be "losers" and "winners" is something peculiar to US culture.


I kind of agree with this. People don't really use these labels here either. It perplexes me a little every time I hear someone comment on someone else being successful, or a failure (say, ex high school classmates).

In this country, having a bad job, a dysfunctional marriage, an eating disorder, living with your mother, being ugly, or whatever, all that doesn't make you a failure. Having no friends, on the other hand, gets you pity and scorn. Cultures are weird like that.

[nonperson]

I notice most people who think they're SO HORRIBLE are very clearly holding themselves to a different standard than other people, which is a kind of egoism in itself. Though, if you try to point this out to most people (at least in the US), it gets a bad reaction.

I guess this isn't the normal way to deal with depression but it worked for me even if I'm not bubbling with confidence and a sense of self importance now.

Depressives are predisposed to self-aggrandizement.

[Scarlett letters]

I kind of agree with this. People don't really use these labels here either. It perplexes me a little every time I hear someone comment on someone else being successful, or a failure (say, ex high school classmates).

In this country, having a bad job, a dysfunctional marriage, an eating disorder, living with your mother, being ugly, or whatever, all that doesn't make you a failure. Having no friends, on the other hand, gets you pity and scorn. Cultures are weird like that.

The American dream is that anyone can "make it" with enough drive, determination, and hard work. "It" being measured largely in materialistic terms. At some level, they actually believe that they inhabit a meritocracy. Therefore, any failure to succeed must be the result of an individual's shortcomings.

Countries with a strong tradition of socialist thinking are a little kinder to themselves (also quicker to blame someone else for all their problems).

[Madrigal]

The American dream is that anyone can "make it" with enough drive, determination, and hard work. "It" being measured largely in materialistic terms. At some level, they actually believe that they inhabit a meritocracy. Therefore, any failure to succeed must be the result of an individual's shortcomings.

Countries with a strong tradition of socialist thinking are a little kinder to themselves (also quicker to blame someone else for all their problems).

I agree with all that. And the fact people tend to blame others (politicians, bankers, the military, capitalists, etc) does go hand in hand with the idea that success if a social phenomenon and not an individual one, just like failure. A more volatile economic and political context makes people more politically aware and consequently more focused on superstructures than the individual when it comes to assigning blame. So in that context, the American view of "just trying hard enough" seems almost childish to us.

[MacGuffin]

I agree with all that. And the fact people tend to blame others (politicians, bankers, the military, capitalists, etc) does go hand in hand with the idea that success if a social phenomenon and not an individual one, just like failure. A more volatile economic and political context makes people more politically aware and consequently more focused on superstructures than the individual when it comes to assigning blame. So in that context, the American view of "just trying hard enough" seems almost childish to us.

Wait, I thought the immature (children), blamed others for their failures?

[Jennywocky]

Seems condescension is contagious around here... :rolleyes:

I thought it was taking the blame for me not being able to explain myself clearly, rather than blaming the listener. But I can do that, if you want. I know I wanted to.

(If you haven't figured it out yet, I typically reflect the attitude of the person I'm talking to... I don't give people free rides here as much. If you want something nicer... be nicer.)


The American dream is that anyone can "make it" with enough drive, determination, and hard work. "It" being measured largely in materialistic terms. At some level, they actually believe that they inhabit a meritocracy. Therefore, any failure to succeed must be the result of an individual's shortcomings.

I agree with that. That's the typical Protestant work ethic as well... if you sit on your ass, you don't deserve good stuff... and tied into that, if you don't get good stuff, you probably were sitting on your ass.

Which is true only part of the time. But definitely there's an attitude that you can achieve your dreams if you persevere, and if you quit, it's your own fault for not having the life you want.

A lot of the comments in this thread, though, seem to be more about self-absorbed focus and less about society calling someone a loser and more about someone who just feels powerless PERSONALLY (like they have no autonomy or freedom or willpower) in the face of a world where their smarts are not bringing them the success and freedom they thought they could achieve.

And EVERYONE bitches when they want stuff that they aren't getting.
Introspective people who feel powerless naturally do it more and just cycle it.

I think even if American society didn't have the mentality you'd describe, this sort of depressive commentary would still exist.

[Scarlett letters]

Wait, I thought the immature (children), blamed others for their failures?

How is that self-loathing working out for ya? ;)

[Scarlett letters]

I thought it was taking the blame for me not being able to explain myself clearly, rather than blaming the listener. But I can do that, if you want. I know I wanted to.

(If you haven't figured it out yet, I typically reflect the attitude of the person I'm talking to... I don't give people free rides here as much. If you want something nicer... be nicer.)
It was a sincere question to which you took (IMO) unnecessary offense based on an entirely unrelated comment which Delilah chose to troll me with.

What I've worked out is that you blow with the prevailing wind.
Not exactly newsworthy. I think you're ok. I just don't trust you.

[Madrigal]

Wait, I thought the immature (children), blamed others for their failures?

Why do you think we're called "underdeveloped"

pa dum pum chhh

We have been kept in a state of underdevelopment because the agro-export model is what the first world needs from us. Attempts to advance beyond the tutelage of other countries (there's your parent-child analogy) were met with violence. You guys just don't want us to grow up. :grin:

[Jennywocky]

It was a sincere question to which you took (IMO) unnecessary offense based on an entirely unrelated comment which Delilah chose to troll me with.

Yeah, I've noticed how the response you get from people is always their fault. Hope you get over that someday.


What I've worked out is that you blow with the prevailing wind.
Not exactly newsworthy. I think you're ok. I just don't trust you.

If it means you'll stop talking to me, then I'm fine with that.

[MacGuffin]

We have been kept in a state of underdevelopment because the agro-export model is what the first world needs from us. Attempts to advance beyond the tutelage of other countries (there's your parent-child analogy) were met with violence. You guys just don't want us to grow up. :grin:

We were a colony too only 35 years before Argentina declared independence. Face it, you're all just a bunch of losers!

[Delilah]

an entirely unrelated comment which Delilah chose to troll me with.

Pointing out glaring inconsistencies in your statements is hardly trolling.

[Ferrus]

I assume that was done as a stroke, but this thread has never been about the reality of being a failure, it's always been about feeling and perceiving oneself as a failure regardless. People seem to just need to dump their bad feelings about their lives, to get it in the open, then start resolving the issues they've exposed and moving forward.
Yes. We set impossibly high ideals for myself. My ideals for myself are vastly different from modern industrial capitalist ideals, or at least significantly different - and yet I am unsatisfied with myself. Is this the curse of the INTP or modernity? I suspect the intersection between the two.

Djm is right though - success is only measured by phenomena, and the overmastering thereof.

[nonperson]

Yes. We set impossibly high ideals for myself. My ideals for myself are vastly different from modern industrial capitalist ideals, or at least significantly different - and yet I am unsatisfied with myself. Is this the curse of the INTP or modernity or depression? I suspect the intersection between these two. three.

Djm is right though - success is only measured by phenomena, and the overmastering thereof.

.

[Scarlett letters]

Pointing out glaring inconsistencies in your statements is hardly trolling.
And yet when I pointed out your glaring inconsistencies you threatened me with violence.

One has to be very careful about what one chooses to publish online, lest one be considered a hypocrite.

[Ferrus]

We were a colony too only 35 years before Argentina declared independence.
And yet America was never a colony in the same way as Argentina was. The American colonists were largely self-governing, which was why after all parliament's eventual (by Spanish standards) limited interference triggered the waves of resentment it did. Latin American states were virtually slave states (much as the Southern states were in the US), without the industrial potential the northern states of the US had. They had limited experience of governing, failed attempts at federalism, and large Indian populations that contributed to instability post-independence. And the US was strong enough militarily to impose tariffs blocking the kind of predatory trading practices used on Latin American markets by the British and French empires, blessed with resources of the kind to kick start industrialisation (West Virginian coal for a start), and a majority of the population capable of performing free labour without the legacies of peonage systems over the majority of the population. The two aren't comparable.

[Delilah]

you threatened me with violence.

What on earth are you talking about?

[Jennywocky]

Yes. We set impossibly high ideals for myself. My ideals for myself are vastly different from modern industrial capitalist ideals, or at least significantly different - and yet I am unsatisfied with myself. Is this the curse of the INTP or modernity? I suspect the intersection between the two.

Potentially, and maybe it is for you and others. I never really cared a ton about the social standard of success, I never tried to "climb the ladder," i just wanted to find my own way and couldn't and felt very lost.

So I lashed myself very hard over my inability to live up perfectly to my own inner sense of perfection and expectations. I think the stuff I posted in here a few years ago, regardless of how I said it, was built on my own disgust with myself for being too passive to make necessary decisions about my life and find the "sweet spot" between what I wanted to be and do and the constraints of reality happened to be.

There's a variety of reasons, I guess, that someone might have posted in this thread at some point.


What on earth are you talking about?

Del. I'm shocked. You're going to make him cry.

[Delilah]

Del. I'm shocked. You're going to make him cry.

We wouldn't want that, we have had quite enough irrational tantrums around here.

[LastRailway]

We wouldn't want that, we have had quite enough irrational tantrums around here.

Here? Really? When?

[Scarlett letters]

him
*checks pants*

um. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Perhaps the hormones are messing with your brain.

[kble]

A lot of the comments in this thread, though, seem to be more about self-absorbed focus and less about society calling someone a loser and more about someone who just feels powerless PERSONALLY (like they have no autonomy or freedom or willpower) in the face of a world where their smarts are not bringing them the success and freedom they thought they could achieve.

And EVERYONE bitches when they want stuff that they aren't getting.
Introspective people who feel powerless naturally do it more and just cycle it.

I think even if American society didn't have the mentality you'd describe, this sort of depressive commentary would still exist.

I agree.

It's difficult to see a (young/unhealthy) TP self-loathe. And saying that typically only makes them self-loathe more as they feel like they're making you sad/disappoint you. Which makes them do things that continue to make you sad. Which makes it really difficult to provide the positive feedback they often crave etc. etc. It can make for a real actions vs. words discrepancy.

[djm]

I assume that was done as a stroke, but this thread has never been about the reality of being a failure, it's always been about feeling and perceiving oneself as a failure regardless. People seem to just need to dump their bad feelings about their lives, to get it in the open, then start resolving the issues they've exposed and moving forward.

Not really, I tend to take things at face value unless I have a particular reason not to. I meant what I said, as I think Manza is being overly hard on herself over circumstances created by factors out of her control.

When most people moan about being a failure, I just shrug my shoulders and say nowt.


What's the difference?

I don't see much difference for the most part either.


I kind of agree with this. People don't really use these labels here either. It perplexes me a little every time I hear someone comment on someone else being successful, or a failure (say, ex high school classmates).

In this country, having a bad job, a dysfunctional marriage, an eating disorder, living with your mother, being ugly, or whatever, all that doesn't make you a failure. Having no friends, on the other hand, gets you pity and scorn. Cultures are weird like that.

This to me is an altogether more sensible norm.


My reasons for calling someone a loser have little to do with typical notions of "success".

Ditto. If I regard someone as a loser it's likely something to do with how they approach life rather than what the results are.


So in that context, the American view of "just trying hard enough" seems almost childish to us.

It is, still though - childish ways do have a certain charm to them.


Djm is right though - success is only measured by phenomena, and the overmastering thereof.

You phrase it more eloquently, but yes that is the crux of my view on the matter.


One has to be very careful about what one chooses to publish online, lest one be considered a hypocrite.

Or at least try to not live a hypocritical life, and acknowledge it where you fail I guess.

[Scarlett letters]

Yes. We set impossibly high ideals for myself. My ideals for myself are vastly different from modern industrial capitalist ideals, or at least significantly different - and yet I am unsatisfied with myself. Is this the curse of the INTP or modernity? I suspect the intersection between the two.


I suspect it's neither. It's the curse (/blessing?) of introspection.

How weary, stale, flat, and unprofitable
Seem to me all the uses of this world!
Fie on’t! O fie! ’tis an unweeded garden,
That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature
Possess it merely.

I am pigeon-liver'd and lack gall
To make oppression bitter, or ere this
I should have fatted all the region kites
With this slave's offal. Bloody, bawdy villain!
Remorseless, treacherous, lecherous, kindless villain!
O, vengeance!
Why, what an ass am I! This is most brave,
That I, the son of a dear father murder'd,
Prompted to my revenge by heaven and hell,
Must, like a whore, unpack my heart with words,

Shakespeare is the master of the "I am a failure and a fuck up" soliloquy. :grin:


Of course, it's only a blessing if it prompts one to action. Otherwise, it's just a weedy garden.

[Philosophyking87]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.

Academically, I'm still pushing.
But REAL CAREER? I haven't even had a job yet! (and I'm older than 20!)
And yeah, relationships are a real bummer for me too.
People usually stop coming around or talking to me altogether, because I'm always so distant, which they cannot understand.
And it seems typical for many INTPs to feel utterly self-worthless.

Society isn't easy for us, my friend. Life is hell.

[stuck]

Thanks, world. BFFs 4eva!

"best friends forevers forever"

good work, fuckup

[dee64]

MacGuffin

I love you join the club I can put the gun away now you have made many people happy.

[Scarlett letters]

Remorseless, treacherous, lecherous, kindless villain!
O, vengeance!
Heh. Prescient.

[asperger]

Yes. We set impossibly high ideals for myself. My ideals for myself are vastly different from modern industrial capitalist ideals, or at least significantly different - and yet I am unsatisfied with myself. Is this the curse of the INTP or modernity? I suspect the intersection between the two.


I would have said it is simply the human condition as experienced by an honest mind. The mind is not a logical system, it is a system of neural nets which are not inherently Aristotelian in operation. We are all and in all ways beings between one thing and another. The ideal will forever escape us.

[InLolsWeTrust]

I, too, could likely be classified as a fuck up. But I'm still ridiculously young, so I like having the illusion of the possibility of change. But why on earth would I want to? I've got a full circle of under-achiever friends that intellectually satisfy me more intrinsically than C.S. Lewis or Aldous Huxley ever could. I'm happy without any trophies on my wall.

[Tommo3]

I'm no fuck up.

[asperger]

I'm no fuck up.

Why sho y'all is. Don't be bashful, all god's chil'n is.

[Tommo3]

Why sho y'all is. Don't be bashful, all god's chil'n is.


I wholeheartedly agree!

[polarity]

In terms of the external world, total fuck up. Although, my academic life consists solely of a high school career, and thus, a GPA plagued by advanced classes that I thoroughly enjoyed but lacked the work ethic necessary to turn papers in on time etc.
That being said though, I wouldn't change my cognitive process (or "personality type" if you will) for the world. I like the way my mind works, and that's really all I need to achieve any degree of happiness. Sure, happiness to some extent will inevitably come as a result of developing interpersonal skills and relationships, but it's not anything I require on the most basic level.

[ModestMoron]

Why sho y'all is. Don't be bashful, all god's chil'n is.

Hehehe, that's how my maternal Grandmother talks. She's this old Christian lady who lives in Oakland, Ca.

[asperger]

Hehehe, that's how my maternal Grandmother talks. She's this old Christian lady who lives in Oakland, Ca.

I think of "y'all" as a strictly Southern term. Is this incorrect? Or is she originally from the south?

[SwirlingSugarSparkles]

No you're not. You are a magnificent, out of this world, excellent person!

[Mantis]

I'm worse than a fuck up

I'm a fuck down

ahahaha. Good one. Well, creativity still works, I see.

[Mantis]

hahahahha. good one. How old are you, though?

[Mantis]

you know, what? I always hated those people who have reached what they call "a certain age" and just go "well, if I haven't done it by now, what's the point." blah blah.
I must admit, to my own disgrace, I have been one of those folks loads of time..like my parents made fun of me when I was in primary school because I didn't read. I remember once my father told me "when your sister was your age, she had already read our entire home library". That library consists of hundreads of books, many of which are philosophical...clearly, it was a gross exaggeration of a half-drunk man. But I was 8 years old, and trusted my parents, and that one sentence was deeply branded in my mind and created such a huge complex that I was immediately convinced I just did not have it in me to be a great reader, and that I was already so far behind that there was no point to it, really...I basically held on to that belief until my junior year in high school, before which, I just read what we were absolutely required to read for school curricula. I am 22 now, and have read over a hundred books since that, but I am still a lot less behind what I would've been, if I had started reading one book per month, when I was 8 or 9..see what I mean?

it doesn't matter how old you are, you should never give up on what it is you want to do, or just settle on the idea that you are a "failure".

[Mantis]

Yeah, I did well on standardized tests and did the backdoor to admissions: the Cornell Summer College between my junior and senior years in high school. Give them 6 weeks of you time and $5,000 and they'll usually accept you for college.

Seriously, failure or success for me depends on my own expectations. I've written in other threads that while others may see me as a success, I know my actual capabilities, the efforts I have put forth, and the decisions I have made and do not consider myself a success in terms of either academic or career achievement.

I've done many things right, but just as many things wrong. The latter continues to weigh on me.

I've never even thought about suicide. I have the means to enact a few "escape plans" that involve moving to far-off places if things should get really bad. Even the chances of doing that is remote.

my reply was to this post.

[C.J.Woolf]

I think of "y'all" as a strictly Southern term. Is this incorrect? Or is she originally from the south?

I don't know, but I'm not from the South and I find it useful to distinguish between the singular "you" and the plural "you all".

Unrelated: To the best of my knowledge, "ain't" is a proper contraction of "am not".

[War Wizard]

key phrase here is "Things must change"

[Kyuuei]

I think most of my friends are fuck ups.. which leads me to believe I should be one as well. The saying, "If the whole world is crazy, you probably are too".. is that how it goes? I'm even fucking up the quotes of famous sayings. :3