I am a failure and a fuck up

[MacGuffin]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.

[crule81]

Amen.

We are two peas in the pod.

I've too have a history of underachievement. I've fucked up my academic career as early as middle school (why didn't I take Algebra I in 7th grade instead of pre-algebra?), highschool (homework counts as part of the grade and should be done at home and not during the class period in which it is due), college (did I really need to finish that book about Churchill and Rudolph Hess the night before my calculus final?), and law school (was reading the Lord of the Rings Trilogy more important than the law?).

My career is similar: why bother getting a job at a real firm when I can go to this place in the basement and not have to interview.

My relationships generally suck. I finally have a real girlfriend for the first time in awhile and it has indirectly caused me to lose a friend I've had since grade school.

However, I do not feel I am completely worthless.

[s]

Let me in on this pity party...

[Lee]

Is this another fake suicide thread?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/rolleyes2.gif

[Division56]

Wheeeee... my scholastic record is quite horrid.

[coffeezombie]

You went to Cornell, Crule. You must have done something right.

[joft]

I'm worse than a fuck up

I'm a fuck down

[crule81]

Is this another fake suicide thread?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/rolleyes2.gif

No, when lawyers get desperate, they sue people.

[Claverhouse]

Same here. I've known that since I was six.

[ Not that you are a fuck-up; but that I was. After all, this is all about me. ]



Claverhouse :ph34r:


No-one is worthless though... Not so long as they can exist, and therefore think about themselves, since it is inevitable that they will ever remain the centre of existence to themselves, and the centre of the universe cannot be worthless.

[s]

Most of us feel like we have not reached our potentials. People who reach their potentials and are still mediocre are the ones who need to be pitied.

Talking about change here, Lee. Change and death are only the same thing in tarot readings. Mac is stressed and showing his shadow. We are all allowed to be occasionally consumed by the allogical.

[s]

Same here. I've known that since I was six.

[ Not that you are a fuck-up; but that I was. After all, this is all about me. ]



Claverhouse :ph34r:



5w4, eh?

[Aryan]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?
Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change. Holy shit! http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/ng_shock.gif
Let me change that a little



I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?
Academic career? F**ked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, f**ked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

F**k it. F**k it all. Things must change. Aaah! Now it looks better and full of surprises http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/holy.gif


From -
A very well mannered INTP http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

PS. Just fuck it man and don't care either http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[s0978]

Is it okay to laugh? And is there such a thing as an INTP who doesn't feel like a fuckup?

[crule81]

You went to Cornell, Crule. You must have done something right.

Yeah, I did well on standardized tests and did the backdoor to admissions: the Cornell Summer College between my junior and senior years in high school. Give them 6 weeks of you time and $5,000 and they'll usually accept you for college.

Seriously, failure or success for me depends on my own expectations. I've written in other threads that while others may see me as a success, I know my actual capabilities, the efforts I have put forth, and the decisions I have made and do not consider myself a success in terms of either academic or career achievement.

I've done many things right, but just as many things wrong. The latter continues to weigh on me.

I've never even thought about suicide. I have the means to enact a few "escape plans" that involve moving to far-off places if things should get really bad. Even the chances of doing that is remote.

[Wilde Mutton]

Since when has achieving something become a measurement or self-worth? Or rather, since it has always been and always will be a tell-tale sign that one is a "good" person, applied by people who "get out there and do stuff" (the majority of mankind, but for the sake of openmindedness I´m staying out of the question of typology), it has never carried any weight with me to try and achieve something. People that I know that are doing better than me achievementwise, in the academia, at work, in relationships (and everyone I know is doing better than me at least in THAT department), have gotten to where they are by means which I would never use lest I wanted to lose every bit of the sense of self-worth that I have that isn´t centered on achieving things. They (the achievers) will always tell one one thinks too much, makes things too difficult, concentrates on the wrong things, doesn´t concentrate and/or underappreciates the "important" issues, and simply isn´t fit. Where do they get that energy, that boundless belief in their opinions beings right and their actions profitable, the endless trust in the profit of profit? It would occur to me that they derive it through self-deceit. Through pretending that if you only do as you´re told/do what sounds "reasonable"/be as "normal" as you can, then you can have some sort of a right to exist. I hear their banal utterings day after day. Those proclamations are proclamations of fear, of insecurity, and can hold no truth for me. I will never do anything right, not by their standards, but I am making the claim that since their demands are, in fact, unjust, unkind, dogmatic and reeking of stagnation, those are not the morals of someone free but of someone tied as if in chains, for only slaves will whip themselves. Divorce from this madhouse that they´d have you call "real life"...

[waxwing]

lyrics by New Folk Implosion

The lines in bold I've had on my mind for a few weeks.
-------------------------------------------------
Said I wouldn’t do it, leave it alone
tried to ditch it, followed me right back home.
After a while I don’t resist
I’m alive with a purpose,
on my way down looking for it.
That’s what I’m afraid of.

When I finally hold it, arrive on the scene
The doors are open, I can hardly breathe
And like every guilty feeling I’ve forgotten before
Three hours later, I’m hungry for more.
That’s what I’m afraid of
I don’t have the will to change
Not when it’s so easy, to be easy

Resistance is low when I’m feeling bored
What I thought was fun isn’t fun anymore
Gravity pulls neither wrong nor right
The moon is full and we’re out of our heads
Let’s do it again and feel all right
The fight is over for now.
The fight is over for now.

[s0978]

... the backdoor to admissions: the Cornell Summer College between my junior and senior years in high school. Give them 6 weeks of you time and $5,000 and they'll usually accept you for college.
oh, that's not even true. don't make up stuff to feel entitled to feeling like a fuckup, now.

[Wilde Mutton]

lyrics by New Folk Implosion

The lines in bold I've had on my mind for a few weeks.
-------------------------------------------------
Said I wouldn’t do it, leave it alone
tried to ditch it, followed me right back home.
After a while I don’t resist
I’m alive with a purpose,
on my way down looking for it.
That’s what I’m afraid of.

When I finally hold it, arrive on the scene
The doors are open, I can hardly breathe
And like every guilty feeling I’ve forgotten before
Three hours later, I’m hungry for more.
That’s what I’m afraid of
I don’t have the will to change
Not when it’s so easy, to be easy

Resistance is low when I’m feeling bored
What I thought was fun isn’t fun anymore
Gravity pulls neither wrong nor right
The moon is full and we’re out of our heads
Let’s do it again and feel all right
The fight is over for now.
The fight is over for now.

Proves that banality is not only mind-numbing but also mind-numbingly hypnotizing...

[crule81]

oh, that's not even true. don't make up stuff to feel entitled to feeling like a fuckup, now.

I'm not making it up. I believe it to be true. Your statement proves my point that while one may be considered a success in other's opinion, that person is not a success in his or her own mind. Being a "fuck-up" is completely relative and subjective. Neither you nor I might not be a "fuck-up" in your "objective" sense compared to somebody who killed or seriously hurt another with his or her "fuck-up", but it doesn't mean we should disregard our own failures just because somebody else has failed in a much worse way.

[Sally]

Proves that banality is not only mind-numbing but also mind-numbingly hypnotizing...

A friend of mine sent me a mix that has some folk implosion, and my compulsive need to listen to them has grown ever since. I just can't... stop...!

Oh, and fuck-ups? *raises hand* I was an academically successful slacker until I lost interest even in *that* and failed/dropped out of college. There were minor fuckups before that, but... I'm young yet. I feel like I've really just begun my career of massively fucking up everything I touch.

And relationships... My few experiences have convinced me that it's much better for me and the world in general if I just stay out of the game.

[waxwing]

I'm not making it up. I believe it to be true. Your statement proves my point that while one may be considered a success in other's opinion, that person is not a success in his or her own mind. Being a "fuck-up" is completely relative and subjective. Neither you nor I might not be a "fuck-up" in your "objective" sense compared to somebody who killed or seriously hurt another with his or her "fuck-up", but it doesn't mean we should disregard our own failures just because somebody else has failed in a much worse way.
Exactly. Nobody saying "You aren't a fuck-up" takes away from the recognition that I have fucked up and continue to do so.

[Combat]

is there such a thing as an INTP who doesn't feel like a fuckup?

I don't ;P

The world is fucked up and useless, I'm not.

[s0978]

Being a "fuck-up" is completely relative and subjective.
Easy, cowboy... I agree with you, I was saying you *were* entitled to feeling like a fuckup (so you didn't have to make stuff up to be convincing or something). Anyway, give yourself a pat on the back then, I know that this backdoor rumor is not true.

[flan2dave]

I have a slew of fuck ups that I would love to rant about sooner or later, but let's see if every university I applied to actually do reject me before I have my slice of the fun.

[Wilde Mutton]

[QUOTE=Sally]A friend of mine sent me a mix that has some folk implosion, and my compulsive need to listen to them has grown ever since. I just can't... stop...!QUOTE]

I just want to make sure everyone knows I wasn´t referring to the music but rather to the message of how it is easy to fall and follow... :) I´m sure you got me, but it occurred to me how my comment might have been taken...

[Sally]

I actually was thinking of the music, but then it was just playing in my car. Music, lyrics, philosophy toward life... It all blends together.

[waxwing]

Proves that banality is not only mind-numbing but also mind-numbingly hypnotizing...
Yes.

"Like every guilty feeling I've forgotten before,
three hours later I'm hungry for more."

[s0978]

I don't ;P .
good for you. why not?

[cjs55]

If I'm depressed I feel like a fuck up entirely. If I'm not depressed I don't feel like a fuck up in the slightest, quite the contrary, despite the fact that nothing has changed except my self-conception.

My Fi is very schizo. That's ok though, makes things interesting.

[Combat]

good for you. why not?

A mix of self esteem and indifference (perhaps more of the latter). I don't care too much about my accomplishments or fuck-ups, I just try to learn something from it. Figure out what I did right/wrong and use that as a starting point for the future. Avoid repeating mistakes and so on.

[Sally]

I feel like that on good days. :}

Actually, I've gotten pretty good at not having regrets about things I do or don't do. What I'm working on now is being more internally ... aware and decisive and ... satisfied.

[Crazy]

Yes, I am a Fuck-up too.

Academic Career? Started fucking that up in 1st grade.

Working Career? A Joke.

Love Life? Let me see.....does a miserably failed marriage count?

Family life? My son is in state custody, apparently, I'm not a good father.

Personal life? I wouldn't consider that a success either.

Yup, I would say I am a failure, but how do you go about changing that?

[crule81]

Easy, cowboy... I agree with you, I was saying you *were* entitled to feeling like a fuckup (so you didn't have to make stuff up to be convincing or something). Anyway, give yourself a pat on the back then, I know that this backdoor rumor is not true.

I'm in Fe mode today, so I didn't mean to attack you, it just came out that way.

[flan2dave]

If I'm depressed I feel like a fuck up entirely. If I'm not depressed I don't feel like a fuck up in the slightest, quite the contrary, despite the fact that nothing has changed except my self-conception.

My Fi is very schizo. That's ok though, makes things interesting.

That's the way I am. All a matter if I'm depressed or not, which in itself seems arbitrary. Sometimes the fickleness is so blatantly transparent I'm able to laugh about it during the down times.

Interesting you attributed it to Fi..

[Anti__F]

This is why i like this site so much.
Fuck, almost reading my own thoughts.
It's ironic.
We've got it all, we can rule the world if we want.
We are better in most things then average people, but we can't finish things and end up doing it worse.
It's the fucking P what stands in our way.

[Sally]

It's the fucking P what stands in our way.

Do you ever just want to... put out an ad? Analytical sidekick seeking charismatic leader. Let's join forces and conquer the world!

The conquest/conqueror would have to keep one's attention for the duration, though. Maybe that's what falling in love is for.

[prometheusdestroyed]

Do you ever just want to... put out an ad? Analytical sidekick seeking charismatic leader. Let's join forces and conquer the world!


Good idea, but I bet I wouldn't like him/her or their plans

[Boneca]

The world is fucked up and useless, I'm not.That sort of sums up my view of life. Though in the end, it doesn't really make me feel any better, because I still have to get along in this absurd world.

[Sally]

The charismatic leaders do tend to be assholes, don't they?

I want one who's... ruthless without holding grudges, confident without compensating... Competent and cold as ice.

But that's why god gave us gangster films. :}

[Wilde Mutton]

This is why i like this site so much.
Fuck, almost reading my own thoughts.
It's ironic.
We've got it all, we can rule the world if we want.
We are better in most things then average people, but we can't finish things and end up doing it worse.
It's the fucking P what stands in our way.

The world isn´t worth being conquered, certainly not by us. What would we do were we successful? Rule?

Edit: I rest my case.

[Sally]

It'd be something to do.

[flan2dave]

The point of conquering is not to rule, the point of conquering is to conquer.

Obviously.

[Wilde Mutton]

Doing things is overrated, that is why so many here feel they´ve messed up when in fact it could be they who are messed with.

Edit: Conquering is doing something, ergo conquering is overrated.

[Sally]

Don't you ever wanna get... swept along... by someone else's idea? Something you don't have to take serious responsibility for but produces interesting results?

[Wilde Mutton]

To be "swept along", as you so put it, is, to me, something I have always been told to do. Hence I have no desire whatsoever to follow anyone, nor to lead. I will listen, ponder, assimilate, discard. Observe. The world keeps turning and absurdness keeps growing and I don´t need to be on that ride.

[Anti__F]

It would be nice to rule the world, but then again.....
We would fuck it up.

[prometheusdestroyed]

Yup, becoming ruler of the world and then fucking that up would be a real downer. We'd never lose that 'fuck up' tag then

[KBELL]

HELL!!! Throw me in this pot as well. I was wondering if I were still an INTP or not after years of nothingness. A few days on this site and I feel right at home.
Watermark, what change did you make 15 years ago that changed your path, if you don't mind me asking.

KB

[jjt]

All this sounds like a younger "me". At 45 I have not felt this way in years. I can relate but it's like - oh yeah I remember feeling so absolutely like my life was a confused f**k up.

The things that plague me still are I'm not making the most of what I am capable of, and I leave things unfinished. I'm somewhat lazy.

Now though I am happy, I do feel successful, I really enjoy my work (self employed) I have a fantastic husband and two kids I'm besotted with. Things are working out for me. But .. I bloody worked at it, I didn't give up. I also did a course in my late 20's that had a profound impact on my attitude and made a huge difference for me. Very NT very logical, very useful in understanding ourselves. http://www.landmarkeducation.com/

[Claverhouse]

Doing things is overrated, that is why so many here feel they´ve messed up when in fact it could be they who are messed with.

Edit: Conquering is doing something, ergo conquering is overrated.

The work-shy, the lazy and the drifters never build death-camps.

Achievers, however...



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[MacGuffin]

Wow.

I feel slightly better tonight. Still a fuck up.

Kind of depressing how many fellow INTPs relate. We are not made for this world.

[kafkaesque]

A few weeks ago, on a monday, I called in sick to work. I was not sick. I spent the day lying in the middle of the floor of my studio (I do not have a tv or a couch) listening to Mahler and staring at a blank canvas. Slowly imbibing beer and, when that ran out, red wine.

I am absolutely certain that I "achieved" more that day than if I had commuted to a job that I hate.

.
*edit* MacGuffin, you were one of the first to welcome me to this forum and I have never found your input here to be worthless.

[MacGuffin]

*edit* MacGuffin, you were one of the first to welcome me to this forum and I have never found your input here to be worthless.
Thanks. You are lucky, I usually don't welcome people...

[s]

The work-shy, the lazy and the drifters never build death-camps.

Achievers, however...



Claverhouse :ph34r:

niiiiiice, claver.

As always, jackboots on the backs on the weary...

[grin]


I had to buy you a drink in a thread, Mac! [gasp] Where was my welcome?!

[MacGuffin]

I had to buy you a drink in a thread, Mac! [gasp] Where was my welcome?!
You just started posting all of a sudden...

[s]

[pouts]


I admit I was a bit of a whirlwind.

[Sally]

You just need to catch me on an up day. I rock so fucking hard, you don't even know.

Or maybe INTPs just shouldn't hang out together. Nothing like seeing your own flaws in someone else to make you loathe them even more.

[crule81]

The work-shy, the lazy and the drifters never build death-camps.

Achievers, however...



Claverhouse :ph34r:

Himmler was probably an INTJ.

[Geek Engineer]

MacGuffin I come in at this late, but I use to get into your mood all the time. Maybe less often as I get older, but I think it is because I don’t care much anymore. At some point I think I just gave up in a way to be honest and went full bore with what I was good at and said screw the rest.

This sort of reminds me in college when I felt like all my friends abandoned me and were saying bad things about others behind their backs and I figured about me too. Granted it may have been my paranoia, and I was very depressed when I stopped talking to them and they didn’t seem to care or even ask me what was wrong. Needless to say it made me feel even worse like they were really all false freinds and that my socal life was totaly meaningless.

I decided one day I felt so bad that I would put a poster saying I was a loser and put it on my dorm door. Nobody even cared except for later that day the janitor lady complained to the RA about it. He talked to me an made me go to a counselor. I will tell you when I told her my story she just wanted to blame it all on me and didn’t seem to even want to try to understand or listen.I just left and never came back, I just felt totally alone at that point with no were to go.

I often thought about killing myself, but I always said if it came to that I would just moved to the mountains and live as a hermit and say the hell with the world before it came to that. It was a horrible experience I had with my social life in college, maybe it was partially my fault but I think all I wanted was somebody to just understand and I wasn’t finding that at all. Anyway, I wish I had something like this forum when I was in college it would have helped a lot more than that worthless counselor.

Anyway, I guess my advise for what it is worth as I am no expert in this area is to not give up, maybe you can’t be perfect at everything or have everything you want in life, but find what you like to do and make the best of it. I truly hope that someday I will be rewarded for my patience and find someone who truly understands and cares about me, but at least I am doing things I like today. I feel like I am making a small difference with my few good talents. So I hope the same will come your way some day.

[MacGuffin]

Anyway, I guess my advise for what it is worth as I am no expert in this area is to not give up, maybe you can’t be perfect at everything or have everything you want in life, but find what you like to do and make the best of it. I truly hope that someday I will be rewarded for my patience and find someone who truly understands and cares about me, but at least I am doing things I like today. I feel like I am making a small difference with my few good talents. So I hope the same will come your way some day.
Thanks. Sorry to hear about college. I loved college so much more than high school... it was a great time. My grades sucked, but it was probably the best time of my life. Downhill since then...

Anyways, I am just frustrated and disgusted with myself. Plus I have hurt people that I love recently. It really sucks. But I have to make changes. Otherwise I will become one of the walking dead.

[KBELL]

What do you do now G.E.?
I'm like you MacGuffin, I had a blast in college.
Downhill ever since.

[kafkaesque]

Thanks. Sorry to hear about college. I loved college so much more than high school... it was a great time. My grades sucked, but it was probably the best time of my life. Downhill since then...

Anyways, I am just frustrated and disgusted with myself. Plus I have hurt people that I love recently. It really sucks. But I have to make changes. Otherwise I will become one of the walking dead.

That is the great thing about self loathing (to which I am no stranger); It helps you make changes. Changing is good....usually.

*does one and one half bottles of wine qualify as drunk-posting? I do not think so.*

[crule81]

I'm like you MacGuffin, I had a blast in college.
Downhill ever since.

Sadly, I must also agree. I once drew a graph and found that I peaked around October or November of 1999. At first, the decline was gradual, but when the variable "the law" was added in the fall of 2000, the slope of the downward line increased significantly (well, actually the slope decreased because it became more negative, but you guys know what I mean). I think, however, I hit bottom around the late summer of 2004 and have slowly been inching my way back up since then, with a few peaks and valleys.

[Geek Engineer]

Yea, that is one things that honestly wonder at times if I am just living a life of complete emptiness, since halfway through college and since then. I hope that you at least realize your mistakes and move on if nothing else and try to make it right if you can. I guess I might not have realized your reasoning, for being so hard on yourself. So I am sorry if I didn’t totally understand. I know I do stupid crap at times as we all do.

[smash0gre]

we live in an sp-centered (and controlled) universe. of course we're fuckups. we cannot be understood by a mainstream that has developed societal rules that deny our existance.


i've found invisibility to be a wonderfully useful skill. tricky for someone my size.

[Serotonin]

Measuring our "success" by the world's yardsticks: Education, stable relationships, financial security etc etc: Yes we are fuckups

Measuring success by our own yardsticks: Lateral wit, common sense, appreciation for the intellectual, dilletanteism: We all pass with flying colours.

Fuck their world. Measure your success by your own happiness. It took me 21 years to realise that the things most people gauge their success or happiness by is completely different to the things I gauge my success or happiness by. I chased the things that made other people happy (steady salary, relationship with a pretty girl, ability to drink copious amounts of beer and talk bullshit with macho meatheads), attained them thinking they'd make me happy as well, became confused when all I felt was fakeness, not joy, and then lost them fairly quickly. Sometimes (in the case of the pretty girl) I didn't learn straight away, and thought I had lost something special. Now I realise she wasn't worth much in the first place, and it was my own misplaced image of her that I was pining over.

Recently I have a much better idea of what I want out of my life. Getting it will be hard, but not impossible. I'm still young.

But the message is to everyone here is: Do the soul work first, be sure of what you really want, don't commit to anything if you have doubt about it, and then take the first step. kafkaesque is right in that he got more done lying on his floor than he would have going to work, because it's worth the time figuring out what you want.

[jread]

Do you ever just want to... put out an ad? Analytical sidekick seeking charismatic leader. Let's join forces and conquer the world!

The conquest/conqueror would have to keep one's attention for the duration, though. Maybe that's what falling in love is for.

This is exactly what I did.

Life before:

- Fucked off in college and ended up dropping out for a few years
- Stuck at a dead-end job and too apathetic to do anything about it
- Never paid bills on time and forgot to schedule Dr. appointments, etc.
- Made no plans for the future whatsoever
- Was depressed all the time

*Got engaged to an ENTJ*

Life now:

- Back in college at a private school and making a 4.0
- Looking for better jobs with higher pay
- Bills are always paid on time and bank account is well-managed. Even buying a house soon.
- Make all my Dr. visits
- Have long-term plans for the future
- Finally properly diagnosed with depression and on medication to treat it


Now, don't get me wrong, I'm still a pain in the ass, forgetful, late to everything INTP... but life is much easier now :)

[Hypnos]

:( Vader so sad! :hug:

[nonsequitur]

haha this is the first time i'm ever posting on this site (was always too lazy to check it out though i know that i'm an intp). this just about sums up my life: huge screw up (at least compared to my oxford-going, intj elder sibling). now, i've learnt to just ignore what i don't like, and focus on what i like/want. since i'm in college now and absolutely love what i'm studying, i'm not too bad. i do have my dark days too though, where life is not worth living and people are basically the devil in sheeps' clothing.

[Dunearhp]

It'd be something to do.

Today the World. Tommorrow Myself.

Which is harder?


This is my eighth year of university. No I am not a postgrad. I WILL graduate this year. :banghead:

It is bloody hard to put half a degree on a resume.

I thought I was a fuck up two years ago. Not now. I have developed a strange source of self confidence that has nothing to do with traditional success metrics.

[MacGuffin]

Hmmm, who shall I make cry today? My mom cried on Sunday, but that was because she spent the weekend in the hospital watching her uncle die. And this is all about me and my pity party!

I heard my brother's serious girlfriend did not get into law school. I got in that same school with fewer good credentials... maybe I should email her and make her feel like shit...

[Watermark]

This is my eighth year of university. No I am not a postgrad. I WILL graduate this year. :banghead:

It is bloody hard to put half a degree on a resume.

Yeah, I know what that's like. Trickier yet to fit several partial degrees.



I thought I was a fuck up two years ago. Not now. I have developed a strange source of self confidence that has nothing to do with traditional success metrics.

I really do think that is a key point - taking care not to measure yourself against traditional success metrics. I think alot of INTPs get depressed around issues dealing with competence. We are competent, just that things happen for us in an unconventional way. As soon as we start comparing our lives against conventional standards, we start to sink.

[Biff_Loman]

I've come up with a new term to describe extremity of emotions due to relational problems: the filth. You've just got to beat it down.

Yeah, I'm a fuck-up too. But, like Hamlet says: nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

Remember that. Nothing is good or bad, nothing is good or bad, nothing is good or bad, nothing is good or bad. . .

[LuridLemur]

I am currently in the process of fucking up my acedemic career. Give me more time and I'll fuck up a relationship and a real career as well.

Has anyone ever met an INTP overachiever? I'm not sure if they would be 1 in a thousand or 1 in a million...

[MacGuffin]

Has anyone ever met an INTP overachiever? I'm not sure if they would be 1 in a thousand or 1 in a million...
Yes, excellent question!

We can point to historical ones like Einstein, but has anyone met one or is one in real life?

You know, making money hand over fist, respected beyond all measure in their chosen field, driving a Ferrari, banging a different Brazilian model every night, waking up after noon cause they don't have to, with a contented smile on their face?

Well, maybe that lifestyle is not for most INTPs, but you all know what I am driving at.

[Last Song]

Perhaps it is just the way you perceive yourself which creates a feeling of being a 'failure' and a 'fuck up', and not that you are indeed a 'failure' and a 'fuck up'.

PS: This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were missing.

Edit: Damn, I should have just said "Yeah".

PPS: RIP Mitch Hedberg.

Last Song :ph34r:

[2hype]

Okay. So it is oddly comforting that there are so many other INTPs who feel like they are as much of a fuck up as I do. But what about INTPs who don't feel like a fuck up? And I don't buy the whole "it's how you are measuring yourself" argument. I WANT to have a decent career, I WANT to have my financial life in order, I WANT to have a stable, passionate relationship. I don't have any of these things. And unlike most of you, I'm not in my twenties. I'm 31. grrr.

[cathmc]

I don't feel like a fuck up. At times I might have even been perceived as an overacheiver - I always got good grades in school, for example.
Although I myself have never felt like an overacheiver - I always feel like I could do more or better.
2hype - I do think unrealistic expectations can have a lot to do with it. You may have overly high standards for what you consider a 'decent career' or an 'ordered financial life'. And if not having a great relationship is equivalent to being a fuck-up, well...shit.

[Dunearhp]

But what about INTPs who don't feel like a fuck up? And I don't buy the whole "it's how you are measuring yourself" argument. I WANT to have a decent career, I WANT to have my financial life in order, I WANT to have a stable, passionate relationship. I don't have any of these things. And unlike most of you, I'm not in my twenties. I'm 31. grrr.

It's a pseudo Buddhism approach. You are responsible for your own happiness. If you want to tie your happiness to all of those things, go ahead. Ask yourself why you want them. How much of it comes from your expectations, and how much from the expectations of society.

I don't claim to live in a state of bliss, but I have come to realise that a lot of the expectations that I had were never really mine to begin with. It makes an uncertain future more interesting than frightening.

I still want those things as well. If I am to find them then I will find them on my own terms and by following my own path. I won't let the rest of the world tell me what is right and wrong with my life.

[jyakulis]

I'm joining in. God damn school. Ohh why do the kids that go to class and turn things in on time get the better grades, when I continually score better than them on tests?

[Hypnos]

I dunno if I'm an overachiever. I have a decent resume and I get laid more often than 85% of male INTPs.

[iponjs]

I'm joining in. God damn school. Ohh why do the kids that go to class and turn things in on time get the better grades, when I continually score better than them on tests?

Because SJ teachers don't reward fuckups with good grades (esp. not ones smarter than them). Too bad you didn't tell on the little shit-bag copying your answers during the test (though you probably didn't notice them - I never did)... They had better grades too I'll bet :rant:

don't listen to anything I say - I too am just a fuckup....

[Wilde Mutton]

I dunno if I'm an overachiever. I have a decent resume and I get laid more often than 85% of male INTPs.

But do you have what it takes to fail?

[Hypnos]

But do you have what it takes to fail?
What does that mean -- take a risk as a prerequisite for great reward?

Yes.

[MasterMerk]

I haven't fucked up, yet.

[Geek Engineer]

Okay. So it is oddly comforting that there are so many other INTPs who feel like they are as much of a fuck up as I do. But what about INTPs who don't feel like a fuck up? And I don't buy the whole "it's how you are measuring yourself" argument. I WANT to have a decent career, I WANT to have my financial life in order, I WANT to have a stable, passionate relationship. I don't have any of these things. And unlike most of you, I'm not in my twenties. I'm 31. grrr.

2hype, I am 32 and have a decent career, have my financial life in reasonable order.. HOWEVER, am a total loser when it comes to relationships and friends. So should I complain about it obviously not, life could be much worse. Every day I need to remind myself to remember that I am lucky for the unique talents that I have, but I (like a lot of INTPs here) still feel like I am worthless some days. I think everyone has useful talents if they think about it enough and put the energy into it. You are a creative person use that to your advantage.

Well I was trying to make you feel better, but I am not sure this is really helping or if I am totally missing the point. :blink:

[jjt]

Okay. So it is oddly comforting that there are so many other INTPs who feel like they are as much of a fuck up as I do. But what about INTPs who don't feel like a fuck up? And I don't buy the whole "it's how you are measuring yourself" argument. I WANT to have a decent career, I WANT to have my financial life in order, I WANT to have a stable, passionate relationship. I don't have any of these things. And unlike most of you, I'm not in my twenties. I'm 31. grrr.

Well as I said previously I certainly dont feel like a fuck up. Maybe its an age thing. I fianlly found the man I wanted to be with at the grand old age of 34, prior to that I hadn't had a long term successful relationship. Although I had had a ton of relationships of varying lengths and successes. I had a highly succesful design career and was seen as one of the best in my area (disability design) but that didn't begin until I was 28. (Got bored after 10 years) My current career as a nutritionist still serves me well, started that at age 36. I do pretty well. But it's part time due to being mum.

I am financially reasonably well off. We aren't loaded but our finances are well in order. I can't stand financial chaos, it's too stressful. My husband and I have a number of investment properties and are looking at getting more.
I don't have a lot of close friends, could probably make more effort!
I guess I feel pretty satisfied with a close relationship with my husband and two extravert kids who demand a lot of energy.

I guess part of me is comfortable with being INTP and it's could be seen as drawbacks. I have done some really succesful things, but right now work wise I'm okay with part time and part success.

I know I could be a whole lot more successful - I certainly know how, but just dont want to put the effort in.

[YardGnome]

Ironically I was going to post the same exact thing today... I feel you Macguffin...

[LuridLemur]

I feel you Macguffin...
Such an odd phrase... without the "for" in the middle it's a little too literal sounding for my tastes.

[euterpenc]

Such an odd phrase... without the "for" in the middle it's a little too literal sounding for my tastes.

I like it better without the "for." I don't someone feeling for me, I can do it myself.

[MacGuffin]

I like it better without the "for." I don't someone feeling for me, I can do it myself.
I agree. Without the "for" it sounds more empathetic than sympathetic. I only want sympathy from those close to me.

[YardGnome]

Such an odd phrase... without the "for" in the middle it's a little too literal sounding for my tastes.

Get your mind out of the gutter...

How about, I understand and feel the same way?

Is that more concise?

[2hype]

I don't always feel like a failure and a fuck up. But I have been feeling kind of beat down lately.

[MacGuffin]

Update: some things are going better as I continue to work on them. Other areas (like my career) just frustrate the hell out of me. Summer is really slow for that around here it seems.

[seba]

i add myself to the hall of looser's fame.

[kendoiwan]

I could've been somebody. A real person.

Elementary school? I could have been skipped, and what did I do? Refuse so I could stay with my friends! (I only kit with one of them today, way to go smart boy) Junior High? Join a gang, cut class, be a cool kid! (I only graduated because the teachers knew I was to smart for the joint anyway)
High School? Continuous criminal activity, delinquent doesn't quite describe my attendance. Lets just say school was a meeting place before we went to where ever we really were going.

SAT? never took one. Regents passed them things without ever setting foot in the relevant classes. AP classes? (Always found a way to show up to english) Torture the so call smart kids with my INTJ accomplice, running intellectual circles around them. ("Did we read the same book? How the hell did you get that interpretation?!") I only "graduated" and I use the term loosely because my INTJ friend was close to the principal, (on the take I say) and we cut a deal, if I could maintain a C+ average I kept my diploma. I brought him back a 4.0 and resumed with life.

College? Not so bad, except that I didn't realize the power of the internship and totally screwed up any chance I had at breaking into politics (Karl Rove ain't got nothing on me!!!) So now I head to law school (only because my job has 100% reinbursement, otherwise...) Now if I could be a professional test taker

And that's not counting the underachieving in my criminal career, or musical career, or my social life.... :sobs: :sobs: :rant: :rant:

I could've been somebody, I tell ya, a contender, a real class act.... :rant: :rant: :rant:

[kendoiwan]

i add myself to the hall of looser's fame.


You have a lot more fucking up to do before you earn that distinction ;P

[seba]

ok, i'll wait another 10 years

[kendoiwan]

ok, i'll wait another 10 years

May you underachieve for all your days... you may rise

[seba]

postmortum?

[MacGuffin]

Now, now... we can ALL be failures and fuckups!

[kendoiwan]

postmortum?


Nah, you just need to pad your resume a bit more. We take being a fuck up very seriously ;)

[kendoiwan]

Now, now... we can ALL be failures and fuckups!


Yes we can... but there's a special brand of fuck up, he who has all the potential in the world but always seems to drop the ball. He who could rule, and yet is the servant. The dark-side is strong in that one, but he is confused, he refuses to use his anger.
And being that kind of fuck up takes work. ;P

[seba]

I shall evolve from the beloved Anakin to the almighty Darthvader!

[kendoiwan]

I shall evolve from the beloved Anakin to the almighty Darthvader!


Seriously though, there's no worse feeling than playing catch up with yourself. If I may be as so pretentious to offer advice, play their game. Excel at it. Put yourself in a position to be all the slacker you can be. Work now play later, or play now work later. Those are the choices, whatever your line of work. And I know the tendency to play now is strong, but it's alot more fun to play later.... Take it from someone who's just now catching up with himself. ;)

[MacGuffin]

I shall evolve from the beloved Anakin to the almighty Darthvader!Woah. Come onto my thread and try and take MY persona?

[seba]

i rather play now, i can die later.

[nomir_dva]

Unlike what most of you have written, I've done very well in school despite my procrastination and my laziness. Perhaps it was a subconscious effort to convince myself that I wasn't worthless. In any case, there are some very important skills that I never learned in that mind-prison, and so, when I enter the 'real world' of back-stabbing, ass-kissing, social climbing, and all those wonderful human aspirations, I'll fail like no one has ever failed before (assuming I manage to find any 'practical' ambitions by then).

[Hypnos]

nomir_dva,

* School obviously isn't hard enough for you. It wasn't hard enough for me until I got to graduate school.

* Perceiving backstabbing, ass-kissing, etc. comes quite easily to INTPs, unless it's happening to them! Just takes a little practice, but it's intolerable if you're emotionally committed to your work.

[kendoiwan]

nomir_dva,

* School obviously isn't hard enough for you. It wasn't hard enough for me until I got to graduate school.

* Perceiving backstabbing, ass-kissing, etc. comes quite easily to INTPs, unless it's happening to them! Just takes a little practice, but it's intolerable if you're emotionally committed to your work.

I don't get into backstabbing unless a line was crossed. I do minimal ass kissing although I do charm, and if possible manipulate my bosses. And I take it bout as good as I give it. Never been emotionally committed to any job except the one that doesn't pay the bills, have to get back to you on that one. :ph34r:

[nomir_dva]

nomir_dva,

* School obviously isn't hard enough for you. It wasn't hard enough for me until I got to graduate school.

* Perceiving backstabbing, ass-kissing, etc. comes quite easily to INTPs, unless it's happening to them! Just takes a little practice, but it's intolerable if you're emotionally committed to your work.

That is very true; I have never felt well-served by my public education. If anything, school only served to make me more cynical towards people and society.

Inter-office 'diplomacy' disgusts me, and I do not feel that I could ever bring myself to participate in it. As I mentioned above, I may have become too cynical towards life, but from my past experiences, self promotion (which I despise) is generally more valuable than competence.

[kwis]

posting in this thread to say I am a failure and a fuck up.

[s0978]

well, for the record, because happyturkeyman has been quoting me saying something about feeling like a failure/ fuckup...

I have decided I am so not. (in fact, I am pretty awesome.) thanks, that is all.

[meshou]

I haven't done anything worthwhile yet. Still young though.

[attila_the_hunny]

I'm only twenty. I'm young. Lots of time for world domination.

An artist created a piece of me made on the day of my birth.
I got a scholarship to Sarah Lawrence for a summer writer's program.
I've written two novels before I was fifteen. I burned them both.
I won second place in a singing contest.

Wait, you're saying I'm not special...?

[dubbeltop]

dont worry youre not alone :)

[Dom]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.

Ok I'm in.....

Academic Career: Total mess up what a waste of opportunity and money

Real Career: Hate it, got unfairly dismissed, sold my soul like a corporate whore and hate it... just hate it so worthless and boring and....

Relationships?: I've hurt every single woman that has ever come near me, Totaly fucked them up... My family tears itself apart all the time, my brother has wounded so bad I'm only just recovering some 5 years later,

The only good thing is that I finally woke up, about 6 months ago, and said this has got to change or I have atleast got to try to change it!!!!!

[Dom]

On second thoughts,

Please excuse me from your club!!

I've changed my mind,

You know why.... cos despite the evidence, I'm no fuck up...

No more than the guy sat next to me, or the lass opposite or mos tof my friends.....

It is in human nature to fail no matter how 'special' we all are.

IT IS NORMAL TO BE/MAKE FUCK UPS.....

Come on guys, just admit we're all sitll learning, pick ourselves up dust off the crap and get back at it....

We're only really fuck ups when we stop trying......

[Biff_Loman]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.

Since Mr. Thread Necromancer decided to resurrect this goodie, what the hell, I'll chime in.

Academic career: Five years, two useless degrees. My performance was at best inconsistent. I had moments of brilliance but generally I was an underachiever.

Real career: My resume is a joke. Years of working for Dad on the farm, followed by a year working with brain injured people for a company that refuses to give references. A brief stint working for a small contractor, and then tried to go into competition with him.

Relationships: I've lost all my close friends.


Am I a failure? Let's re-assess the above categories.

Academic career: I know for certain that I don't want to teach, so no second thoughts. On the other hand, I will always have the credentials in case my family is starving.

I also have the luxury of surprising the hell out of everyone who thought I was only good for writing history papers.

Real career: My plan is to renovate and flip properties for income and to build capital. In between flipping, I want to acquire, renovate and hold one property every 10 months until I have enough houses that I can sell them all and acquire either an apartment building or a lucrative commercial property. This will probably be when I'm 35.

Relationships: One great marriage. No festering wounds from previous love affairs. Reasonably healthy bonds with my immediate family. In-laws who don't drive me nuts.



I've only just begun.

[Ella]

Nice, Biff_Loman!

[Ferrus]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.
I feel your pain. My advice is to hang yourself. If you want any advice on how to make a noose PM me, I'm a dab hand :)

[MacGuffin]

I feel your pain. My advice is to hang yourself. If you want any advice on how to make a noose PM me, I'm a dab hand :)
Did you fail at suicide? Lack of oxygen to the brain? No thanks.

[Ferrus]

Did you fail at suicide?
No, I sell them to depressed teenage girls (a 2 for 1 discount is available for Romeo and Juliet style suicides).

[harris]

Ok I'm in.....

Academic Career: Total mess up what a waste of opportunity and money

Real Career: Hate it, got unfairly dismissed, sold my soul like a corporate whore and hate it... just hate it so worthless and boring and....

Relationships?: I've hurt every single woman that has ever come near me, Totaly fucked them up... My family tears itself apart all the time, my brother has wounded so bad I'm only just recovering some 5 years later,

The only good thing is that I finally woke up, about 6 months ago, and said this has got to change or I have atleast got to try to change it!!!!!

given your situation, how do you still manage to be jolly? i sometimes envy enfps for they appear to take life in a stride and not sulk in occurring bouts of depression.

[Lee]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let’s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.I declare myself the winner.

Acedemic career? there has never been one.

Real career? three crap jobs, fired from two.

Relationships? there have been none.

Future prospects? not good.

[Biff_Loman]

I declare myself the winner.

Acedemic career? there has never been one.

Real career? three crap jobs, fired from two.

Relationships? there have been none.

Future prospects? not good.

Why should that be? You have strong mental gifts/analytical faculties; are you saying that you are a failure, or that you are satisfied with your station in life? There's no use in trotting out superficial, socially constructed failure if you're leading a life of secret delight indulging your interests.

If you hold with the above-mentioned criteria, and define yourself as a failure based on them, I can only say better luck tomorrow.

[Lee]

are you saying that you are a failureYes, not only by everyone elses standards, but by my own. I have practically nothing to be pleased about in my life. My prospects do not look good because I have little experience, no qualifications, bad work history and very little worth caring about, I am currently unemployed and cannot seem to get a job doing anything, most things that I am qualified to do also require exactly the kind of skills I do not have (like people skills) and I need to find a job soon otherwise I'll be homeless in a few months. As for relationships.... nothing, nada, zilch and I mean that completely, no nothing ever.

I declare myself the winner of this thread.

[bergenski]

Yes, not only by everyone elses standards, but by my own.

Your own are all that matter...

EDIT: Theoretically.

[Ferrus]

I declare myself the winner of this thread.
Nah, this is "everyone's a winner (c.f. loser) day".

[Mr. Beef]

Yes, not only by everyone elses standards, but by my own. I have practically nothing to be pleased about in my life. My prospects do not look good because I have little experience, no qualifications, bad work history and very little worth caring about, I am currently unemployed and cannot seem to get a job doing anything, most things that I am qualified to do also require exactly the kind of skills I do not have (like people skills) and I need to find a job soon otherwise I'll be homeless in a few months. As for relationships.... nothing, nada, zilch and I mean that completely, no nothing ever.


My advice? Kiss some ass, get a shitty job, save up some cash, go to community college, get a better job, got to a university and you'll be set in 5 years or so. In the short term though, just do step 1. Seriously though.....did you ever consider studying mathematics? Or science in general? I don't think you'd be bad at it, and it would be a shame to see you waste your talents.

[Mr. Beef]

Oh yeah, and as for having poor social skills, all you have to do is smile, act nice and do solid work and you won't get fired....i don't know how your past jobs have been, but that formula seems to be pretty reliable.

[matthew0028]

Is this another fake suicide thread?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/rolleyes2.gif

No, when lawyers get desperate, they sue people.

So, sue-icide, then?

Anyway.

My turn to chime in. Academically, I did very well and was enthusiastic for through grade 9. Then the tedium of 10 years of overly easy work started to get to me at the same time as more work was required. So my grades went on a gradual downhill slope for the rest of high school. Got into college, did passably for the first 3 semesters. Then I failed every class I took (due to not doing the work and not showing up for class) for the following 3 semesters. Failed out of school, spent a year working at McDonald's. Took some classes online the second semester of that year, which was evidence enough that I could succeed in school that I was accepted back to my original college (on a side note, what the heck type of college offers "A+" as a possible grade?).

I'm now in my 3rd year of college since returning. Been doing adequately (or occasionally, well) in all my classes. Missed a deadline for my math senior project required for my math major (actually, I hadn't really done *any* work on the project), so I bumped my math major down to a minor. Now I'm risking the same thing with my computer science major (the one I actually care about, as it's the field I would like to get a job in.

Do I feel like a fuck-up? To be honest, I did more when I was failing out of school the first time. Knowing that I had the potential to be doing well, but that I wasn't since I couldn't seem to get to class or get my work done wasn't the greatest feeling in the world.

Now? Well, there's still (some) hope that I can pass my computer science senior project. I'll need to work my ass off in the next few weeks. Previous experience says I won't, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try. So I basically feel that I was a fuck-up, and I have the potential to fuck up again shortly, but I don't feel like I've been a fuck-up since failing out of school the first time. However, I don't see any reason to worry about past mistakes, though preventing the future ones is important.


We're only really fuck ups when we stop trying......

Which, honestly, I think is a big part of why I felt like a fuck-up. That I wasn't trying (hard enough to succeed).

And in response to all the people who are saying to use your own success metrics, or to ignore the world's definition of successful, or whatever, my feeling of being a fuck-up has nothing to do with the world's definition of success. I've failed at things that I know I could have (easily) succeeded at had I put the appropriate amount of work into. I know the type of career I would like to have, and in order to get into said career, this graduation thing is important. Constant failure (due to lack of effort on my part) makes me unhappy. Success does not.

[iceprincess]

so here's my chance to whine...

academic career: it took six years to complete one degree (and an incomplete minor). basically i took behavioral science classes because i would rather bang out a five page bullshit paper in an hour and a half than actually study all semester.

real career: i'm stuck in social work now... like i give a fuck about other people... the job's ok, but i still can't break 30k, and the median home price in san diego is 500k. i can't even afford a condo. i so regret not sticking with pharmacology, but am too depressed to get off my butt to go back to school. in any case, i'd have to go to a state school (the UCs don't allow second bachelor degrees) and neither of the CSUs near me are appealing.

relationships: what relationships? i lost touch with all my friends after school and there isn't really anybody at work that i would hang out with outside of work. i do still have a couple of friends, but they all have their families and lives, and i'm single. haven't dated in a very lonnng time. there are two 2w1 isfjs that i am pretty sure like me, but they are so not my type. i'd get suffocated and flee.

[airjaw]

I am currently in the process of fucking up my acedemic career. Give me more time and I'll fuck up a relationship and a real career as well.

Has anyone ever met an INTP overachiever? I'm not sure if they would be 1 in a thousand or 1 in a million...

I overachieve in school considering the amount of time I put into studying/actually doing something compared to goofing off.

[Justin05]

This year: I totaled a car, payed out 5,000. Flunked 5 of 9 classes. wasted 5000 on school for no return

[airjaw]

Real career: My plan is to renovate and flip properties for income and to build capital. In between flipping, I want to acquire, renovate and hold one property every 10 months until I have enough houses that I can sell them all and acquire either an apartment building or a lucrative commercial property. This will probably be when I'm 35.

I hope you don't use those real estate scam artists' books.. like russ whitney, robert kiyosaki robert allen etc...

i got suckered by those once, its every intp's dream, to outsmart everyone else and get rich quick and retire.

not saying you cant' make money in real estate, just that its not as easy as those scam books make it out to be.

speaking of those books, anyone want to buy mine?

[Ferrus]

Yup, becoming ruler of the world and then fucking that up would be a real downer. We'd never lose that 'fuck up' tag then
Well I'm sure we can't be worse that Mussolini, Bush or "random kleptomaniac African dictator".

[bedhead]

so here's my chance to whine...

academic career: it took six years to complete one degree (and an incomplete minor). basically i took behavioral science classes because i would rather bang out a five page bullshit paper in an hour and a half than actually study all semester.

real career: i'm stuck in social work now... like i give a fuck about other people... the job's ok, but i still can't break 30k, and the median home price in san diego is 500k. i can't even afford a condo. i so regret not sticking with pharmacology, but am too depressed to get off my butt to go back to school. in any case, i'd have to go to a state school (the UCs don't allow second bachelor degrees) and neither of the CSUs near me are appealing.

relationships: what relationships? i lost touch with all my friends after school and there isn't really anybody at work that i would hang out with outside of work. i do still have a couple of friends, but they all have their families and lives, and i'm single. haven't dated in a very lonnng time. there are two 2w1 isfjs that i am pretty sure like me, but they are so not my type. i'd get suffocated and flee.

That sounds familiar. Everyone here sounds like me, which feels strange.. I feel like a fuck up pretty bad right now.

1. Spent 5 years in community college
2. Spent another 5 years at a university and got an electrical engineering degree.
3. It's been a year since I graduated and I'm still a janitor (haven't really tried to find a cubicle job). I've been a janitor for about 6 years.
4. Haven't dated in 5 years.. (hate to admit that one). Also trying to avoid suffocation. Whenever someone seems to like me, I think "not my type". I have a lot of regret related to that... I worry a lot about hurting people.
5. In debt, credit probably going to shit cus I don't like to pay bills
6. All my friends are married/getting married and having babies.

Oh well..

[MrECrow]

I failed and fucked up in a lot of areas of my life, but things are getting bettter all the time. :mellow: Doesn't make me feel much better though....

[Justin05]

I am a huge fuck up. But I don't really give a shit. Some fucking world this is. A God who creates us out of his image and then turns his back on us when he provides us temptation. A world full of loop holes and bullshit. Nothing is real and everyone is full of shit for the most part. Their is no God, their is nothing. Only the goddamn heart inside your chest that beats every day until your fucking last. Some cruel joke this life is. If their is a God he is just some mad scientist w/ the human race as his guinea pigs, he tortures by giving life and blaming them for it. The hell w/ it all. Fuck up out.

[Ferrus]

I am a huge fuck up. But I don't really give a shit. Some fucking world this is. A God who creates us out of his image and then turns his back on us when he provides us temptation. A world full of loop holes and bullshit. Nothing is real and everyone is full of shit for the most part. Their is no God, their is nothing. Only the goddamn heart inside your chest that beats every day until your fucking last. Some cruel joke this life is. If their is a God he is just some mad scientist w/ the human race as his guinea pigs, he tortures by giving life and blaming them for it. The hell w/ it all. Fuck up out.
If you made that coherent you would be so right.

[Wiki]

I am a huge fuck up. But I don't really give a shit. Some fucking world this is. A God who creates us out of his image and then turns his back on us when he provides us temptation. A world full of loop holes and bullshit. Nothing is real and everyone is full of shit for the most part. Their is no God, their is nothing. Only the goddamn heart inside your chest that beats every day until your fucking last. Some cruel joke this life is. If their is a God he is just some mad scientist w/ the human race as his guinea pigs, he tortures by giving life and blaming them for it. The hell w/ it all. Fuck up out.

Makes me wonder if that is how my pet hamster felt about me and things in general. No appreciation no matter how much food or how many habitrail pieces added. Always biting me. God I hated that fucking hamster.

[Ferrus]

God I hated that fucking hamster.
Yet it took advantage of you, for you did all the work it was too lazy to do. There is a moral here, I forget what exactly.

[Justin05]

If you made that coherent you would be so right.

But it wouldn't be true to my being a fuck up now would it?

[attila_the_hunny]

Makes me wonder if that is how my pet hamster felt about me and things in general. No appreciation no matter how much food or how many habitrail pieces added. Always biting me. God I hated that fucking hamster.

I had a bird like that...then I stepped on his head and he died a slow death. His life ended three days later.

[MasterMerk]

You just gotta have a positive attitude, I say. Repeat to yourself: "It's always everyone else's fault that life sucks." I'm serious.

[Wiki]

OR join the smashing pumpkins, or go and do something that will get you banned.

Have a diet soda you've earned it.

[intpgolfer]

Why is,

"here lies one who meant well, tried little, failed much"

an epitaph for which we need not be ashamed?

Robert Lewis Stevenson

[ghostkisser]

hi,
MacGuffin, it seems that you are not a total failure -it appears that you reach many people in this forum who can relate with you and appreciate your expressions. Your honesty is helping others. Someone said that "The most important thing in life is how you communicate with people". It just may be that the best way you communicate is through this medium... and you could maybe work on improving in the other ways of communicating... in your first post, you mentioned that "Things must change". Did you make any changes? What were they?

[geek42]

Not sure. Did pretty well in HS, got into a lesser Ivy, junior phi beta, couldn't pass the interviews so wound up at a mediocre med school, was AOA (the med-school version of phi beta kappa) with very high scores on the medical boards but again couldn't come off as a fun guy on the interviews, so I wound up at a mediocre residency in a fairly competitive subspecialty. Will probably get a job but may likely have to live in suburbs or Midwest. (The job market for doctors is bizarrely inverted: you have an easier time finding a job the further from a major population center you are.) Not sure if I can keep the job yet: I know coming off as cool is important, but I've met quite a few weird attendings out there.

There are people who would not consider me a failure, I suppose. But I sure feel like one.

[MacGuffin]

Hey another doctor! I think that makes two.

I was worried for a while we'd never get a M.D. on this forum.

[rainfall]

I miss justin05. I actually arrived late, before he left, but I wish he was still here. Why did you ban him?
Now I'm all alone without a soulmate. The two of us could talk about so much... So much most of you would squirm at because you won't be able to push those silly feelings aside even for five minutes... Oh if only I could get in touch...

[Faust06]

I may be a fuck up.. things aren't unfolding well. I guess the advantage for me is that I'll know exactly how and why.. so I can try to work my way around it. But maybe it's not an advantage. Maybe it just means I'll have to suffer through knowing it's happening, and it will happen.

Both very possible.

[Tayshaun]

It seems unreasonable for anobody below 25 to post here!

[P. Quintillius Varus]

Jeebus, do something like 9 out of 10 INTPs wind up getting a J.D. because they don't have anything better to do? Here I thought I was the only one.

[kansen68]

Meh, I'm a fuck up. I actually hung around a group that they use to proclaim as "The Fuck Ups" and posted a website. Well, we disbanded when I graduated from high school and everybody started hating each other. It's funny that the friends you made wind up hating each other's asses in the end. Anyway, about high school, the happiest day in high school was when I found out that my AP Bio teacher's sister got killed in a murder/suicide and did not show for a week and I got drunk to celebrate (I still laugh every time she talks about it). Well, more likely my friends gave me a celebratory drink of Area 51.

College is alright. But it's not that great when you still living with your parents that hate you for not getting accepted to a college with a dorm.

Career wise: I'll probably do something worth noticing but fuck it up somehow.

[Zephyrus055]

I'm an INTP success story, so hate me.

[Toonia]

Not sure. Did pretty well in HS, got into a lesser Ivy, junior phi beta, couldn't pass the interviews so wound up at a mediocre med school, was AOA (the med-school version of phi beta kappa) with very high scores on the medical boards but again couldn't come off as a fun guy on the interviews, so I wound up at a mediocre residency in a fairly competitive subspecialty. Will probably get a job but may likely have to live in suburbs or Midwest. (The job market for doctors is bizarrely inverted: you have an easier time finding a job the further from a major population center you are.) Not sure if I can keep the job yet: I know coming off as cool is important, but I've met quite a few weird attendings out there.

There are people who would not consider me a failure, I suppose. But I sure feel like one.Then your training was a complete success. The whole point of advanced degrees is to make you feel like a worthless wretched failure.

Congrats, you have officially arrived! :cheers:

[nottaprettygal]

I'm an INTP success story, so hate me.

Wait. So you got laid?

[Zephyrus055]

Wait. So you got laid?
If I got laid, trust me, you'd be the first to know.

[MacGuffin]

If I got laid, trust me, you'd be the first to know.
Why does she get the webcam feed and no one else?

[CyberPanda]

I knew I was a retarded fuck up by the age of 7
and my addatude on the subjact hasint inproved sance than.
I'm just going to try to fix what ever is still fixable I guess.:mellow:

[Nighthawk]

I knew I was a retarded fuck up by the age of 7
and my addatude on the subjact hasint inproved sance than.
I'm just going to try to fix what ever is still fixable I guess.:mellow:

Don't sweat it too much. Most of us here are at least one standard deviation from the norm. That much is made clear to me when ever I go out on my extraverted drinking excursions. Most people (ie. SJ/SP mainstream) are indeed, very different from me. That often translates, in "conventional wisdom," to being a fuck up.

[Google Monster]

Wait. So you got laid?


If I got laid, trust me, you'd be the first to know.
I think he's makin' a move NPG :banana:

[nottaprettygal]

I think he's makin' a move NPG :banana:

Sorry. I only go for fuck ups. INTP success stories don't do it for me, even though I doubt that he is one.

[Google Monster]

Sorry. I only go for fuck ups. INTP success stories don't do it for me, even though I doubt that he is one.
I always thought that being INTP means being a fuck up, I've always considered an INTP success story as an oxymoron. Even Einstein fucked up and he is the poster boy of INTPism.

[nottaprettygal]

I always thought that being INTP means being a fuck up, I've always considered an INTP success story as an oxymoron. Even Einstein fucked up and he is the poster boy of INTPism.

Well, I think that the moral of this thread is that we're all fuck ups. But then again, if everyone is a fuck up then we're not all that unique, eh?

[MacGuffin]

Well, I think that the moral of this thread is that we're all fuck ups. But then again, if everyone is a fuck up then we're not all that unique, eh?
Everyone can't be a fuckup! Then no one would be a fuckup!

*considers*

I'm not as much of a failure and fuckup as I used to be. Still up there though.

[nottaprettygal]

Everyone can't be a fuckup! Then no one would be a fuckup!

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say.


I'm not as much of a failure and fuckup as I used to be. Still up there though.

If it means anything, you'll always be the number one fuck up in my book.

[MacGuffin]

If it means anything, you'll always be the number one fuck up in my book.
:sadbanana:

I was hoping to shoot for George W. Bush fuckuppery.

Now I might as well not even try.

[nottaprettygal]

:sadbanana:

I was hoping to shoot for George W. Bush fuckuppery.

Now I might as well not even try.

But he's only fucked up his job. According to your OP, you've fucked up much more than that. Hence why you're the number one fuck up.

[MacGuffin]

But he's only fucked up his job. According to your OP, you've fucked up much more than that. Hence why you're the number one fuck up.
Maybe I can be president too!

[Google Monster]

Everyone can't be a fuckup! Then no one would be a fuckup!

You fucked up again, look at the big picture. Every INTP can be a fuck up and not everyone will be a fuck up. Think about it man, INTP's are only what? 2% of the world's population. So that's a relatively small number of fuck ups.

[MacGuffin]

You fucked up again, look at the big picture. Every INTP can be a fuck up and not everyone will be a fuck up. Think about it man, INTP's are only what? 2% of the world's population. So that's a relatively small number of fuck ups.
Okay. Whew! I am still special.

[anu bys]

Maybe we are all fuck ups, we are just fucking up together!

[bergenski]

This is one fucked up thread.

[Zephyrus055]

Sorry. I only go for fuck ups. INTP success stories don't do it for me, even though I doubt that he is one.
That's ok, because I only go for P's. INTJs don't do it for me. They are J's and consequently have an inner rule book that will come in conflict with my P, which has a problem with really all rules unimportant for serving my objectives. In short, we just wouldn't get along.

[naruto littles helpers.jpeg]

That's ok, because I only go for P's. INTJs don't do it for me. They are J's and consequently have an inner rule book that will come in conflict with my P, which has a problem with really all rules unimportant for serving my objectives. In short, we just wouldn't get along.

picky, picky, picky

[Google Monster]

That's ok, because I only go for P's. INTJs don't do it for me. They are J's and consequently have an inner rule book that will come in conflict with my P, which has a problem with really all rules unimportant for serving my objectives. In short, we just wouldn't get along.
Fuck their type, is she hot?

[meshou]

That's ok, because I only go for P's. INTJs don't do it for me. They are J's and consequently have an inner rule book that will come in conflict with my P, which has a problem with really all rules unimportant for serving my objectives. In short, we just wouldn't get along.So you failed getting the one you were after into bed, I see.

[MacGuffin]

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most
Guess who is back at it? That's right, me! :wave:

[Dr. Haight]

Guess who is back at it? That's right, me! :wave:What did you do this time?

[Google Monster]

Yes, please spill the details.

[Pooja]

Today is my day to post here:

1. I had all of my most important papers and notes in just one notebook that i had (about one-twentieth) transcribed to word doc... then i lost the notebook. Every syllabi, every paper, every note taken (there were a lot, between my 18 credits hours) is GONE. and it's all my fault.

2. I hate work. It's an extrovert's job. It drains me, and makes me hate people. Yeah, it even makes me hate YOU. Also, my boss things i'm a flake. Maybe I am.

3. My mom is a bitch. THat is the only way to say it. I'm not being rude and ungrateful here. I've tried to level with her. But she is just vile. She is intuitive to the point to being psychic, and she uses it to hurt people where they're the most vulnerable. Nothing is ever good enough for her. Nobody ever works as hard as she does (HA!). She wakes uo at 2pm everyday, and does nothing but watch tv. She says such horrible things, that if i talked to her for over 5 minutes, i become a little depressed.

4. My sister hates me. She really does. I can't do anyting right. We used to be best friends, but now suddenly, I'm not cool enough, and I never do/say the right things. She blames me for everything, even though 99% of the time, i'm completely innocent.

5. My car is broken. This was the tipping point. That car is what my independence is based upon. It's over a decade old, and was crashed up a bit before I ever got it-- but still! It was mine! And now it doesn't start up (reliably). It just chooses not to work when i need it the most.

6. My hormones are crazy. But I hate to act on that, so I'm having to supress all of the crazy symptons (ok, except here).

7. my GPA sucks a$$. It makes me so mad at myself.

8. I have a cold sore. It was ugly a few days ago, and it's still ugly right now.

9. Other stuff i'm too angry to think about.

10. good lists should have ten items. my list stinks.

[nfinityi]

Guess who is back at it? That's right, me! :wave:
It happens. I'm sure it was unintentional.

If you don't mind my asking, what type is the third party in question?

[Zephyrus055]

8. I have a cold sore. It was ugly a few days ago, and it's still ugly right now.

No comment.

[naruto littles helpers.jpeg]

No comment.

funny bumping into you here, zephy.

[seriouskid]

Today is my day to post here:

1. I had all of my most important papers and notes in just one notebook that i had (about one-twentieth) transcribed to word doc... then i lost the notebook. Every syllabi, every paper, every note taken (there were a lot, between my 18 credits hours) is GONE. and it's all my fault.

2. I hate work. It's an extrovert's job. It drains me, and makes me hate people. Yeah, it even makes me hate YOU. Also, my boss things i'm a flake. Maybe I am.

3. My mom is a bitch. THat is the only way to say it. I'm not being rude and ungrateful here. I've tried to level with her. But she is just vile. She is intuitive to the point to being psychic, and she uses it to hurt people where they're the most vulnerable. Nothing is ever good enough for her. Nobody ever works as hard as she does (HA!). She wakes uo at 2pm everyday, and does nothing but watch tv. She says such horrible things, that if i talked to her for over 5 minutes, i become a little depressed.

4. My sister hates me. She really does. I can't do anyting right. We used to be best friends, but now suddenly, I'm not cool enough, and I never do/say the right things. She blames me for everything, even though 99% of the time, i'm completely innocent.

5. My car is broken. This was the tipping point. That car is what my independence is based upon. It's over a decade old, and was crashed up a bit before I ever got it-- but still! It was mine! And now it doesn't start up (reliably). It just chooses not to work when i need it the most.

6. My hormones are crazy. But I hate to act on that, so I'm having to supress all of the crazy symptons (ok, except here).

7. my GPA sucks a$$. It makes me so mad at myself.

8. I have a cold sore. It was ugly a few days ago, and it's still ugly right now.

9. Other stuff i'm too angry to think about.

10. good lists should have ten items. my list stinks.

-sigh-

:-(

[TryIt]

Aww Pooja :hug:

Bright side: You're young. You've got plenty of time to fix this stuff. Also, I graduated with a 4.0. I am unemployed. I would have done well to work on my social skills more often. It's hard though; I get very drained in social situations.

[George_McFly]

Let's see. College is the only life achievement I did right. Even there, I finished my four-year degree, but I've always felt like I picked the wrong major (counseling). At the age of 40, I've never held a steady job. I've also never married or had any children.

[Axel87]

Aww Pooja**:hug:

Bright side: You're young.**You've got plenty of time to fix this stuff.**Also, I graduated with a 4.0.**I am unemployed.**I would have done well to work on my social skills more often.**It's hard though; I get very drained in social situations.

4.0 thing is interesting. Im sure it varies school to school, and this could be bullshit, Im just repeating what ive been told by alumni.

OK, I go to Colorado school of mines, which is not an easy school (although yes easy is subjective, but then again I'm an econ major and I have to take CALC I,II,III, diff EQ, physics I&II, Chem I&II, Epics I&II, Earth etc none of which I have any interest in. Also generally speaking. its very difficult to get a 4.0 at this school, so in essence you wouldn't have a social life if you had a 4.0.)
Anyway, according to alumni, companies hiring engineering students actually proffered students with a 3.0 or lower who came from mines.
Why? Because they believe that this showed they had a social life, and therefore had the social skills.
Thoughts?

Also, my GPA sucks, I hate anything related to engineering, and I'm at an engineering schoo, oooooooo and the ratio of Guys to Girls is 5 / 1.

AWSOME

:banghead:

[Toonia]

Today is my day to post here:...:hug: Not that this is worth anything, but i have always really liked your posts and reading your list leaves me :sadbanana: I've always thought you to be so pretty, really hilarious, and smart. You were one of the first posters i noticed on this site with your avatar of you face with a funny expression. I'm going to guess that you're one-of-a-kind in a very good way. :happpy:

I usually feel a bit failure-ish. I'm sleepy alot now. I tend to alternate anxious and droopy feelings. I'm barely bringing in an income even though i spent 16 years in post-secondary ed. I end up feeling like the most deeply rooted aspects about myself are just an annoyance to most people. The ducks don't mind though - also my cat.

[aether]

I wonder if it's bad to lament our failures and fuck ups too much. Some of us might like it.

[Toonia]

I wonder if it's bad to lament our failures and fuck ups too much. Some of us might like it.You mean as a kind of sadistic pleasure? 'It never hurts to help'. :lol:

[aether]

You mean as a kind of sadistic pleasure? 'It never hurts to help'. :lol:

Yeah but it can become addictive, probably ties in with depression and pent-up anger/furstration. Whoa, I think I'm beginning to recognize my feelings.:ph34r: Good night.

[TryIt]

but then again I'm an econ major and I have to take CALC I,II,III, diff EQ, physics I&II, Chem I&II, Epics I&II, Earth etc....


That is quite an impressive econ program.



Anyway, according to alumni, companies hiring engineering students actually proffered students with a 3.0 or lower who came from mines.
Why? Because they believe that this showed they had a social life, and therefore had the social skills.
Thoughts?


My advisor and I discussed this very topic a semester or two before I graduated. He basically suggested that I get a B for the reason you stated. (And my perfectionist tendencies simply would not allow it!)

My accounting major (and econ minor) was not easy, but it was certainly not difficult. Less intelligent beings did gravitate elsewhere (*cough* busn admn). The most challenging was tax, and I enjoyed the challenge.

I was in computer science and also chemistry, and think that I could have pulled out a 4.0 or high 3 there. But I would have had even less social life than I did.

After I switched to accounting, I had a lot of free time on my hands, and I chose to join a fraternity (leave your stereotypes here <_< ). It was easily the best decision I've ever made. It basically pushed me on to the social scene and I met a lot of people. More importantly I made a couple real friends for the first time. I could definitely have been more social, but I didn't just sit in my dorm and study. I think I would look back and regret that a lot. (Ok stereotypes are up again, there were some kick a$$ parties, where yes I did imbibe! :whoop:)

[HackerX]

8. I have a cold sore. It was ugly a few days ago, and it's still ugly right now.


Go to your chemist/natural drug type store. Buy a bottle of l-lysine. Start throwing them back like they're candy.

[MacGuffin]

No stupid NF hugs!

[Pooja]

Thanks for being so empathetic-- i really appreciate it.
I think I just needed to sleep. Also, when my hormones are acting up, I become a total "F" (no offense to any "F"s reading this), and have a hard time seeing the big picture. I actually cried when my car wouldn't start. I don't even cry when people DIE. jeez.
My cold sore healed (sort of). I woke up today feeling better, but with the puffiest eyes EVER. I look more chinese than the chinese. I considered calling in sick, for work and school. Then I read online, that buting hydrocortisone on the puffy area. So i did. But the only hydrocortisone in the cabinet was expired (but only by a few months...). Still though, being the "fuck up" that I am, I slathered it all around my eyes. OUCH! It burned and stung, and just got puffier. GRRRR. I just wore my long hair down, and hoped that i would cover my face as much as possible.

[Toonia]

No stupid NF hugs!You are such a tease! First you make them available and then say, 'don't touch!' :whistle:

[Tayshaun]

Also, when my hormones are acting up, I become a total "F" (no offense to any "F"s reading this), and have a hard time seeing the big picture. I actually cried when my car wouldn't start. I don't even cry when people DIE.

! The :joft: effect !

[nottaprettygal]

You are such a tease! First you make them available and then say, 'don't touch!' :whistle:

Well, I think that the point of this thread isn't to make people feel better about themselves. We're not here to say, "No. It's okay. You're not a failure and a fuck-up." We're hear to laugh at you and simultaneously make ourselves feel better about our own failures.

[naruto littles helpers.jpeg]

I didn't get a hug. <_<

[Toonia]

Well, I think that the point of this thread isn't to make people feel better about themselves. We're not here to say, "No. It's okay. You're not a failure and a fuck-up." We're hear to laugh at you and simultaneously make ourselves feel better about our own failures. Thanks for the explanation. :blink: Why can't i understand these things! So, that makes this my first legit post in this thread?

[Lurker]

Guess who is back at it? That's right, me! :wave:

I was disappointed at your original post. I expected details so I could compare your plight to mine. As far as I know, you are a wealthy married lawyer with youth, good looks, and charm. So, there you have it.

Here's my whine:

Career: Going nowhere fast and I'm 28. I graduated in '05 and originally planned to be a technical writer, but I don't have the social or computer skills I need. I did not have the money to buy all the programs I need to learn. The positions are few and far between. I suck at social networking. During interviews, I come across as a scattered semi-crazy person who looks suspiciously poor since I don't have the money to buy decent clothing suitable for an interview.

So...I decide to become a teacher. Now I have another year and a half of school ahead of me. I was just chastised via email in my first fucking education class that punctuality is very important for a teacher. She was giving me a "heads-up." So, here I am wondering if I'm too scattered to even teach. I'm awful with time and planning, and this appears to be a J job (like most). I really want to tell her to fuck off, but instead, I'm in the same position I usualy find myself in; that is, trying to scurry around and "prove" that I'm not a loser. Nevermind my actual contribution to the class. Nevermind my GPA. We all know what really matters is whether I am 15 minutes late for a three hour class session.

Education: I'm tired of the pointed questions. "So....are you still in school?" *phony smile*

Hurting people: I do it all the time by withdrawing or not being affectionate enough. What really sucks is when I don't know I've hurt someone until they come back much later and tell me about what I thought was an innocuous situation or statement. So I'm blindsided and confused at what exactly I did wrong.


More shit, more shit, more shit

[joft]

! The :joft: effect !
:referee: :threat:

[MacGuffin]

You are such a tease! First you make them available and then say, 'don't touch!' :whistle:
This is the NT emotional strip club.

[ZHASH]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let?s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.


Funnny you should say this. I'm feeling the same way today. I'm 57 years old, retired from my job because it was eliminated after my project was completed. I've got three jobs that I may get but I haven't received a call with an offer, yet. This is my last week of my salary continuation paycheck. I still have a mortgage and car payment to pay. All my money is in my 401K and IRA accounts and I can't get into it (and don't want to) until I'm 59 1/2 years old. I'm divorced because the INTJ/INTP relationship didn't work, my wonderful kids live in other states and I see them four times a year if I'm lucky. My mother is dying of the same cancer that I have and takes all her frustrations out on me....her only daughter....while I'm her caregiver and spend countless hours caring for her and partnering with her doctors to give her good care. All I do is take her from doctor to doctor, hospital test to hospital test. She lives a mile from me and doesn't drive. She's an ESFJ and we don't relate. She grew up during the depression and all she thinks is everyone wants her money. I fucked up some of my friendships because I'm so stressed out with everything going on in my life and my tolerance level is
"0". If anyone says anything to me, I'm like a fuse ready to go off. Fuck is my favorite word these days. I'm saying it far more than doing it. This afternoon, I sat in the bathtub and cryed my guts out and I still don't feel any better. You could well imagine how it feels to be an INTJ with everything up in the air and no closure on anything. Plus, I feel worthless. I'm an artist and I can't even finish the painting that I'm working on because I can't focus. Perhaps tomorrow will be a better day. I understand your pain, MacGriffin. My heart goes out to you.

[Tayshaun]

:referee: :threat:

:puppy: ... :puppy:




( ;P )

[MacGuffin]

I understand your pain, MacGriffin. My heart goes out to you.
Thanks, but to be upfront, I wrote that post nearly 2 years ago.

[ZHASH]

Funnny you should say this. I'm feeling the same way today. I'm 57 years old, retired from my job because it was eliminated after my project was completed. I've got three jobs that I may get but I haven't received a call with an offer, yet. This is my last week of my salary continuation paycheck. I still have a mortgage and car payment to pay. All my money is in my 401K and IRA accounts and I can't get into it (and don't want to) until I'm 59 1/2 years old. I'm divorced because the INTJ/INTP relationship didn't work, my wonderful kids live in other states and I see them four times a year if I'm lucky. My mother is dying of the same cancer that I have and takes all her frustrations out on me....her only daughter....while I'm her caregiver and spend countless hours caring for her and partnering with her doctors to give her good care. All I do is take her from doctor to doctor, hospital test to hospital test. She lives a mile from me and doesn't drive. She's an ESFJ and we don't relate. She grew up during the depression and all she thinks is everyone wants her money. I fucked up some of my friendships because I'm so stressed out with everything going on in my life and my tolerance level is
"0". If anyone says anything to me, I'm like a fuse ready to go off. Fuck is my favorite word these days. I'm saying it far more than doing it. This afternoon, I sat in the bathtub and cryed my guts out and I still don't feel any better. You could well imagine how it feels to be an INTJ with everything up in the air and no closure on anything. Plus, I feel worthless. I'm an artist and I can't even finish the painting that I'm working on because I can't focus. Perhaps tomorrow will be a better day. I understand your pain, MacGriffin. My heart goes out to you.

P.S. I gained five pounds on vacation, it's fucking freezing in Connecticut, and fuck it, I'm going for pizza tonight. I can't take it anymore.

[ZHASH]

Thanks, but to be upfront, I wrote that post nearly 2 years ago.

Well, thank God I found the post today. I'm happy you're feeling better. I hope it doesn't take me two years to get over my pain.

[Avengardh]

4.0 thing is interesting. Im sure it varies school to school, and this could be bullshit, Im just repeating what ive been told by alumni.

OK, I go to Colorado school of mines, which is not an easy school (although yes easy is subjective, but then again I'm an econ major and I have to take CALC I,II,III, diff EQ, physics I&II, Chem I&II, Epics I&II, Earth etc none of which I have any interest in. Also generally speaking. its very difficult to get a 4.0 at this school, so in essence you wouldn't have a social life if you had a 4.0.)
Anyway, according to alumni, companies hiring engineering students actually proffered students with a 3.0 or lower who came from mines.
Why? Because they believe that this showed they had a social life, and therefore had the social skills.
Thoughts?

Also, my GPA sucks, I hate anything related to engineering, and I'm at an engineering schoo, oooooooo and the ratio of Guys to Girls is 5 / 1.

AWSOME

:banghead:

So glad I read this before going there, I mean, about the GPA.

[Axel87]

TryIt
That is quite an impressive econ program.

I guess, but the chemistry, physics, earth, epics are definetly not neccessary for an econ major.
I would never have to had taken those courses in the UK.
Also, all those classes I mentioned are required courses for all students.


TryIt
My advisor and I discussed this very topic a semester or two before I graduated. He basically suggested that I get a B for the reason you stated. (And my perfectionist tendencies simply would not allow it!)

So what about courses you had no interest in? Did you just study your ass off? Because anything I hate I either fail or get a C. Which applies to any hardcore science out there.

TryIt
My accounting major (and econ minor) was not easy, but it was certainly not difficult. Less intelligent beings did gravitate elsewhere (*cough* busn admn). The most challenging was tax, and I enjoyed the challenge.

I see what your saying. And I didn't mean to imply (it was percieved that way) that all other econ related programs are easy.
In fact I find economics easy. Anything that's a social science is easy. Anything science concepts are interesting, but the focus is always on the details, which is a bore, and stuff like chemistry, just makes no sense what so ever.

TryIt
I was in computer science and also chemistry, and think that I could have pulled out a 4.0 or high 3 there. But I would have had even less social life than I did.

Here's my question. Did you choose a major that you really enjoyed? Like, if you could go back, would you have chosen comp science?

TryIt
After I switched to accounting, I had a lot of free time on my hands, and I chose to join a fraternity (leave your stereotypes here <_< ). It was easily the best decision I've ever made. It basically pushed me on to the social scene and I met a lot of people. More importantly I made a couple real friends for the first time. I could definitely have been more social, but I didn't just sit in my dorm and study. I think I would look back and regret that a lot. (Ok stereotypes are up again, there were some kick a$$ parties, where yes I did imbibe! :whoop:)

I wont judge. Actually I will, but not in the way you think.
I pledged Beta Theta Pi for a year. Lived in house as a pledge. Yep, didn't make it, long ass story, but basically if our chapter was one you in which you could actually have fun, I would have been fine. Unfortunately, it wasn't, it's the new, gentler, no hazing, might as well be a scholastic fraternity. Grades are all that matter basically.
Well fuck that.
But I got what I came for, I got my pledge bro's and learned a lot.

[todayme]

I hereby admit it to the world.

Let?s go down the list shall we?

Academic career? Fucked that up

Real career? Oh yeah, fucked that up too

Relationships? Yup, I bring pain to the people I care about most

Have not cried in a while? Let me suck you into my world of shit. I am worthless.

Fuck it. Fuck it all. Things must change.If you fucked all these things up its because there is something better for you, intp's work well when they are inspired.

There is a saying you dont know what you got until you loose it. But I would say for an intp, the most important saying is. You dont know what you want until you find it.

I bet you feel like you have no direction, angry and all. And I bet you the day you lock onto what inspires you, is the day you will go for it and thins will come together for you.

[e-Centric]

There is a saying you dont know what you got until you loose it. But I would say for an intp, the most important saying is. You dont know what you want until you find it.




I'm not sure where the regret at not appreciating what you have at the time comes from. If most of us were honest with ourselves, we would have a good idea of what we have / had, regardless of how it turned out, and regardless of how our perceptions colored the relationship.

One other thing I've found out through my mass of INTP-ness is that you have to know what you want or you will never find it, or rather, you may never recognize it.

In general, we don't pay too much attention to details, but this is one area on which we should focus our attention.

[TryIt]

So what about courses you had no interest in? Did you just study your ass off?


Yes. When I was in chemistry, I lived at the chemistry library. I went to NDSU, and the chemistry program there (esp. polymers and coatings) is quite well-respected, for a reason. But yeah back then I just studied, even if I had basically no interest in the subject. That is much more difficult nowadays.



Here's my question. Did you choose a major that you really enjoyed?

No. I did not enjoy many accounting courses. In fact, I probably despised a majority of them. I chose my final major based on 1) I thought I could make a decent living with it and 2) I thought I could ace the classes and have some time to slack off. (How's that for honesty. :) )

Btw, I did that econ minor because I truly enjoyed the econ thought process. Economics came very naturally to me and I liked that.



Like, if you could go back, would you have chosen comp science?

Knowing what I know now, I don't think so. My goal is to be self-employed or an independent contractor, and I think that may be quite conducive to an accounting degree/CPA license. I'm sure you could do this as computer person too. I just don't see it as clearly.



Unfortunately, it wasn't, it's the new, gentler, no hazing, might as well be a scholastic fraternity.

Yep this is the way our house was going too at the end of my time there. At the beginning we had full-blown parties every weekend (a couple years before I got there it was Wednesdays too). It gradually decreased, and we even went alcohol free for a year. The initiations got tamer and tamer every year it seemed to me. Wouldn't want to be known as the hazing fraternity. I like to hear the old guys talk about how it was when they were there...and I'm glad I got to see some of the craziness.

[Axel87]

Btw, I did that econ minor because I truly enjoyed the econ thought process. Economics came very naturally to me and I liked that.

Knowing what I know now, I don't think so. My goal is to be self-employed or an independent contractor, and I think that may be quite conducive to an accounting degree/CPA license. I'm sure you could do this as computer person too. I just don't see it as clearly.

Yep this is the way our house was going too at the end of my time there. At the beginning we had full-blown parties every weekend (a couple years before I got there it was Wednesdays too). It gradually decreased, and we even went alcohol free for a year. The initiations got tamer and tamer every year it seemed to me. Wouldn't want to be known as the hazing fraternity. I like to hear the old guys talk about how it was when they were there...and I'm glad I got to see some of the craziness.

What you do being self employed or an Independent contractor.

Are you into a particular branch of economics? A certain school of thought perhaps?

Ive talked to a lot of the older members about this, and weve come to the conclusion that if these trends keep carrying on, "real" fraternities wont disapear, they will just go underground again. And actually I think that would be a good think.
What is the point of a Fraternity? For me it wasn't a principle, belief structure etc to me it was all about brotherhood. And I personally don't think it exists there any more.
I pretty much know everything even though I didn't initiate, and just like you I really enjoy hearing stories of how it used to be.

[TryIt]

What you do being self employed or an Independent contractor.


I've consulted on implementing a new accounting system. It was actually interesting, this was a $20 million dollar/year business and they were keeping track of orders, etc with basic excel spreadsheets. And the owner did not give a crap, it was his wife that hired me. They had some major tax reporting issues.

Could also do taxes...lots of people do that and don't have to do much the rest of the year. But I really like consulting and improving things.



Are you into a particular branch of economics? A certain school of thought perhaps?
:) This section of my brain has a layer of rust on it unfortunately. And SU was not exactly an econ mecca. I enjoyed public finance, when we weren't doing pure theory stuff.



Ive talked to a lot of the older members about this, and weve come to the conclusion that if these trends keep carrying on, "real" fraternities wont disapear, they will just go underground again.

Basically I think you're right, as a chapter we talked a lot about "going local," which meant that campus and international headquarters wouldn't have us by the balls anymore. That idea was nixed for various reasons, but mostly in the name of tradition.



What is the point of a Fraternity?
Whoa...I think that easily be a ten page essay. Definitely brotherhood but I also signed up for the ideals it represented...for me that bonded us together. Like a good woman, a good fraternity makes you want to be a better man.

[Axel87]

I've consulted on implementing a new accounting system. It was actually interesting, this was a $20 million dollar/year business and they were keeping track of orders, etc with basic excel spreadsheets. And the owner did not give a crap, it was his wife that hired me. They had some major tax reporting issues.

Oh cool.


Could also do taxes...lots of people do that and don't have to do much the rest of the year. But I really like consulting and improving things.

It would get old, quick. I did my work experience in the UK as an accuontant trainee. And Whilst I realize I was dealing with very easy stuff, and I did learn from it and all, it was really boring stuff.


:) This section of my brain has a layer of rust on it unfortunately. And SU was not exactly an econ mecca. I enjoyed public finance, when we weren't doing pure theory stuff.

Fair enough.



Basically I think you're right, as a chapter we talked a lot about "going local," which meant that campus and international headquarters wouldn't have us by the balls anymore. That idea was nixed for various reasons, but mostly in the name of tradition.

Whoa...I think that easily be a ten page essay. Definitely brotherhood but I also signed up for the ideals it represented...for me that bonded us together. Like a good woman, a good fraternity makes you want to be a better man.

Ok, perhaps I was being a little extreeme, but If I had to choose, I would choose brotherhood. I think there other things that bond us through ideals, its the hazxing that form's brotherhood for me.

[rawr]

Do your own thing, don comform to the standards of acheivement set by society. Follow your intuition, you will find what you're looking for.

[HilbertSpace]

Anyway, according to alumni, companies hiring engineering students actually proffered students with a 3.0 or lower who came from mines.
Why? Because they believe that this showed they had a social life, and therefore had the social skills.


I wouldn't put too much faith in that. If you have poor grades outside of your area, it's understandable, but in general recruiters want to see either good grades or work experience.

I hire a lot of technical people. Generally, it's not right out of college so my main considerations are generally not GPA related, but I do notice if someone points out that he had a very high GPA - it's a possible indication of work habits. But, like I said, work experience (or publications) are a bigger deal, in general. I don't care if the person had a social life or not - if they're anti-social to the point of being disruptive, that's something I can generally pick out in interviews.

Maybe it's different with companies that hire a lot of interns or new graduates, though.

[Axel87]

I wouldn't put too much faith in that. If you have poor grades outside of your area, it's understandable, but in general recruiters want to see either good grades or work experience.

I hire a lot of technical people. Generally, it's not right out of college so my main considerations are generally not GPA related, but I do notice if someone points out that he had a very high GPA - it's a possible indication of work habits. But, like I said, work experience (or publications) are a bigger deal, in general. I don't care if the person had a social life or not - if they're anti-social to the point of being disruptive, that's something I can generally pick out in interviews.

Maybe it's different with companies that hire a lot of interns or new graduates, though.


I have heard work experience is the probably the most important.
Which is why I have an intern for think tank this summer, and I will probably work for 2 more, throughtout college.

[Oculus Sinister]

I think this thread proves INTP's are not cut out for traditional schooling for the most part. By reading everyone's "failures", I feel like my own botched degree simply demonstrates an incompatibility. Perhaps, in the future, as the baby boomer's leave and we enter a new conceptual age, educational practices will change. Until then, I am going to continue to teach myself the things I wish to learn and not let university reject me for being a procrastinator.

Whats interesting though is the majority of us as children did quite well and were put into the gifted classes. I wonder if as we developed our consciousness and understanding of the world we slowly began to reject the futility of standardized testing and the conventional idea of paying tons of money for a piece of paper given by strangers who stand behind a podium reading froma book anyone of us could of checked out at a public library.

The only area I am failing in right now is my career. I don't make any money and I work as a busboy. The job is very degrading and part of me is ashamed to work in the position. Next weekend, will be my last day of work there and although the new found freedom may open up another possibility, I am concerned about the next job prospect.

Well, my general attitude and inability to cope with or rather overcome my extremely negative outlook in life are also areas of "failure" I suppose.

[thatguy]

/agree sPaCeDdReAmS

Maybe some people would think I'm arrogant (sigh... I still can't link, but see that other post on INTP arrogance), but I don't need 3rd party certification to validate my capabilities or knowledge.

I've been lucky to find a career that suits me, pays well, and was desperate enough for warm bodies that they stopped checking credentials at the door.

But I will say: The really hard part was getting my foot in the door. Landing that first job. But that is often true for graduates, as well as dropouts. Nonetheless, I -still- remember a call I made 12 years ago, when I was damn near broke, crashing out on the roach infested floor of my bro's studio apt on the southside of Chicago. This guy posted a job I was confident I could handle, so I called him up, and he just totally went off on me for not having finished a degree.... His generous advice made my week~

Wish I still had his name so I could tell him how full of --it he was :2up:

INTP's will generally excell at anything that suits their capabilities and retains their interest. If you can find that, you'll be set. Best if you can find an area in which credentials are not strictly required. Then all you have to do is get in the door. Doesn't matter if you start as a clerk: If you're good at it and it interests you, you'll probably get moved up rapidly as people see your skill and value it. And if *they* don't see it, the peeps down the street will, now that you have some experience.

[geniusndisguise]

My turn:

Education: I never got good grades really, I never tried. I never got bad grades either but still. When I graduated high school I got a job at a clothing store, I didn't sign up for any kind of college classes, that would have necessitated some kind of effort and motivation. Then my family moved (20 minutes away) so I quit my job (I didn't have a drivers license) and spent the next year doing absolutely nothing. My mother couldn't stand it so she convinced me to go to one of those trade schools for a paralegal certificate. Half way through that I quit. A couple months later I went back and finished. I was only a paralegal for four months before I decided I hated it and quit. I've taken about a years worth of college credit courses at a local community college. I got good grades but hated it the entire time. Last semester I only took two classes and struggled through them. I doubt I got good grades. I can't even find out until I pay the school, which I haven't yet. I barely care.

Work: I'm a waitress. If I was worth two cents I would at least be restaurant manager by now with my experience and credentials. I could never be a manager of anything though because I don't like talking to people. When people have a complaint, I thank god I can just go get the manager. I would never be able to fire and chastise staff. I'm a fucking jelly fish.

Social Life: I should leave this area blank because that's what it is. I've had various jobs and attended various classes and stuff since high school but I haven't made a single friend (outside of this website) since then. There is only two left that I actually call up and go out to see every once in a while. They are way more busy than I am and I don't see them more than once or twice a month, if that. And they don't call me first, ever.

Relationships: I'm getting divorced. I've only ever had two serious relationships and I lost interest in both of them. As a matter of fact, I was wrong, I made a friend since high school - my husband. He is the only person right now who could and would be here in a minute if I called him and told him how I feel right now. I'm divorcing him.

My life at this moment: I'm 27 and live with my mother in my 15 year old sisters room. I'm about to get divorced, I have no car - it's been in the shop for two weeks and not drivable for months. I have no friends I can turn to and go out with. I have no one to talk to anymore. I will never be happy with any job ever. I will never be happy with anything.

[Dom]

My turn:

Education: I never got good grades really, I never tried. I never got bad grades either but still. When I graduated high school I got a job at a clothing store, I didn't sign up for any kind of college classes, that would have necessitated some kind of effort and motivation. Then my family moved (20 minutes away) so I quit my job (I didn't have a drivers license) and spent the next year doing absolutely nothing. My mother couldn't stand it so she convinced me to go to one of those trade schools for a paralegal certificate. Half way through that I quit. A couple months later I went back and finished. I was only a paralegal for four months before I decided I hated it and quit. I've taken about a years worth of college credit courses at a local community college. I got good grades but hated it the entire time. Last semester I only took two classes and struggled through them. I doubt I got good grades. I can't even find out until I pay the school, which I haven't yet. I barely care.

Work: I'm a waitress. If I was worth two cents I would at least be restaurant manager by now with my experience and credentials. I could never be a manager of anything though because I don't like talking to people. When people have a complaint, I thank god I can just go get the manager. I would never be able to fire and chastise staff. I'm a fucking jelly fish.

Social Life: I should leave this area blank because that's what it is. I've had various jobs and attended various classes and stuff since high school but I haven't made a single friend (outside of this website) since then. There is only two left that I actually call up and go out to see every once in a while. They are way more busy than I am and I don't see them more than once or twice a month, if that. And they don't call me first, ever.

Relationships: I'm getting divorced. I've only ever had two serious relationships and I lost interest in both of them. As a matter of fact, I was wrong, I made a friend since high school - my husband. He is the only person right now who could and would be here in a minute if I called him and told him how I feel right now. I'm divorcing him.

My life at this moment: I'm 27 and live with my mother in my 15 year old sisters room. I'm about to get divorced, I have no car - it's been in the shop for two weeks and not drivable for months. I have no friends I can turn to and go out with. I have no one to talk to anymore. I will never be happy with any job ever. I will never be happy with anything.


I'm glad this isn't in your blog, rant away my dear, I know I need to when I'm feeling like this, but damn it woman, so much of the perspective on this is wrong! Just wrong!

EDUCATON: So what, you can achieve in it if you want to, it's jsut the case you've not found anything you've wanted too! Plus it isn't for everyone, but sadly is required to get more choice about them pesky work ideas.

WORK: So you don't like talking to people, who the fuck does when it's someone complaining? lol We will find something bearable for you to do eventually. Remember that I'm good at supporting others to find what they want, just remember not to let it consume all of me, and let me use some energy to find my own too.

Social Life: Well once the car is back, do something about it. Go to some FUN classes and talk to people for once hey how about some art classes or creative writting? I have a few friends who call me first, all the best ones don't :(

Relationships: Well, It is not enough to be loved, we need to lvoe in return. And yeah he'd be there like a shot, but what use was he during the long slow depression before you left? I know you feel down is skewing your perspective, I know you know that. but heck the only reason I haven't gone back to bed yet (I need too soon) is cos I know how you are feeling! I may not be there 'in a shot', but I'm doing my electronic best, even though I know how it isn't good enough.

Your life: Your situation now is not how it will be in a week and certainly not in a two weeks time, and defo not for ever. Never happy with anything? How were them 11 imperfect days? ;)

[Kropotkin]

My turn:

... [B]I will never be happy with anything.

When someone writes a statement like this, I wonder how much of their unhappiness is because of their actions (or lack thereof) more than anything else. You have a lot more on the ball than you might think because you haven't copped out and claimed "depression." You aren't blaming genetics or your parents or other external factors: you're blaming yourself. That tells me you're a quality person to begin with. It's not that external influences don't matter- they do, but all too often people wallow in the psychological comfort of their false victimhood and give up with various pathetic refrains.

If you've objectively achieved a certain status in life in terms of education, career, and money and you're STILL "unhappy" that's a different story. I have all kinds of existential angst, but it's very esoteric. I also (*knock on wood*) have the luxury of doing so.

In summary- you haven't earned the right to say "I will never be happy with anything" until you actually DO something of merit that is commensurate with your capabilities.

I don't know anything about you (where you live for example) but one of the best things a hapless 20 or 30-something can do is MOVE to cool energetic city. That'll totally break your mindset, at least for a time. Where one lives is so freaking important! I'd rather die than live in 95% of the USA!

[geniusndisguise]

When someone writes a statement like this, I wonder how much of their unhappiness is because of their actions (or lack thereof) more than anything else. You have a lot more on the ball than you might think because you haven't copped out and claimed "depression." You aren't blaming genetics or your parents or other external factors: you're blaming yourself. That tells me you're a quality person to begin with. It's not that external influences don't matter- they do, but all too often people wallow in the psychological comfort of their false victimhood and give up with various pathetic refrains.
I agree. I always blame myself for who I am. I'm big on personal responsibility, even though I hate responsibility. It's really difficult to live on the line of hating responsibility and loving autonomy.


If you've objectively achieved a certain status in life in terms of education, career, and money and you're STILL "unhappy" that's a different story. I have all kinds of existential angst, but it's very esoteric. I also (*knock on wood*) have the luxury of doing so. That's all it is, really, existential angst. I'm just afraid nothing long term will every keep me happy. It's that damn P!


In summary- you haven't earned the right to say "I will never be happy with anything" until you actually DO something of merit that is commensurate with your capabilities.

I don't know anything about you (where you live for example) but one of the best things a hapless 20 or 30-something can do is MOVE to cool energetic city. That'll totally break your mindset, at least for a time. Where one lives is so freaking important! I'd rather die than live in 95% of the USA!

Good thing! I'm planning a move to London ASAP! :grin:

[Oculus Sinister]

My turn:

Education: I never got good grades really, I never tried. I never got bad grades either but still. When I graduated high school I got a job at a clothing store, I didn't sign up for any kind of college classes, that would have necessitated some kind of effort and motivation. Then my family moved (20 minutes away) so I quit my job (I didn't have a drivers license) and spent the next year doing absolutely nothing. My mother couldn't stand it so she convinced me to go to one of those trade schools for a paralegal certificate. Half way through that I quit. A couple months later I went back and finished. I was only a paralegal for four months before I decided I hated it and quit. I've taken about a years worth of college credit courses at a local community college. I got good grades but hated it the entire time. Last semester I only took two classes and struggled through them. I doubt I got good grades. I can't even find out until I pay the school, which I haven't yet. I barely care.

Work: I'm a waitress. If I was worth two cents I would at least be restaurant manager by now with my experience and credentials. I could never be a manager of anything though because I don't like talking to people. When people have a complaint, I thank god I can just go get the manager. I would never be able to fire and chastise staff. I'm a fucking jelly fish.

Social Life: I should leave this area blank because that's what it is. I've had various jobs and attended various classes and stuff since high school but I haven't made a single friend (outside of this website) since then. There is only two left that I actually call up and go out to see every once in a while. They are way more busy than I am and I don't see them more than once or twice a month, if that. And they don't call me first, ever.

Relationships: I'm getting divorced. I've only ever had two serious relationships and I lost interest in both of them. As a matter of fact, I was wrong, I made a friend since high school - my husband. He is the only person right now who could and would be here in a minute if I called him and told him how I feel right now. I'm divorcing him.

My life at this moment: I'm 27 and live with my mother in my 15 year old sisters room. I'm about to get divorced, I have no car - it's been in the shop for two weeks and not drivable for months. I have no friends I can turn to and go out with. I have no one to talk to anymore. I will never be happy with any job ever. I will never be happy with anything.

I am amazed bo you. You are an INTP and you pull off being a server! WTF? I tried my hand at this little ditty and was quite terrible at it. Kudos to you. By far, you have done more than most all INTP's by accomplishing this feat.

[farfegnugen]

Good thing! I'm planning a move to London ASAP! :grin:

an even better idea is to hitchhike to some random, far off place that even you didn't know existed. leave all your stuff at home with no intention of getting it back. take only the bare essentials; become a hobo. i bet if you live in poverty for a while that you'll come out of it much happier with a lot of the things you have right now.

[Ferrus]

Siberia, how I long for thee.

[Capitu]

When someone writes a statement like this, I wonder how much of their unhappiness is because of their actions (or lack thereof) more than anything else. You have a lot more on the ball than you might think because you haven't copped out and claimed "depression." You aren't blaming genetics or your parents or other external factors: you're blaming yourself. That tells me you're a quality person to begin with. It's not that external influences don't matter- they do, but all too often people wallow in the psychological comfort of their false victimhood and give up with various pathetic refrains.

If you've objectively achieved a certain status in life in terms of education, career, and money and you're STILL "unhappy" that's a different story. I have all kinds of existential angst, but it's very esoteric. I also (*knock on wood*) have the luxury of doing so.

In summary- you haven't earned the right to say "I will never be happy with anything" until you actually DO something of merit that is commensurate with your capabilities.

I don't know anything about you (where you live for example) but one of the best things a hapless 20 or 30-something can do is MOVE to cool energetic city. That'll totally break your mindset, at least for a time. Where one lives is so freaking important! I'd rather die than live in 95% of the USA!

:wub:

[Oculus Sinister]

When someone writes a statement like this, I wonder how much of their unhappiness is because of their actions (or lack thereof) more than anything else. You have a lot more on the ball than you might think because you haven't copped out and claimed "depression." You aren't blaming genetics or your parents or other external factors: you're blaming yourself. That tells me you're a quality person to begin with. It's not that external influences don't matter- they do, but all too often people wallow in the psychological comfort of their false victimhood and give up with various pathetic refrains.

If you've objectively achieved a certain status in life in terms of education, career, and money and you're STILL "unhappy" that's a different story. I have all kinds of existential angst, but it's very esoteric. I also (*knock on wood*) have the luxury of doing so.

In summary- you haven't earned the right to say "I will never be happy with anything" until you actually DO something of merit that is commensurate with your capabilities.

I don't know anything about you (where you live for example) but one of the best things a hapless 20 or 30-something can do is MOVE to cool energetic city. That'll totally break your mindset, at least for a time. Where one lives is so freaking important! I'd rather die than live in 95% of the USA!

I wonder if you are that little obnoxious rich kid who makes it his crusade to believe he has the right to tell other people how to live their life because he never knew what it was to not have everything handed to him on a silver, no wait, gold platter. Well, carry on, happy advising.

[Kropotkin]

I wonder if you are that little obnoxious rich kid who makes it his crusade to believe he has the right to tell other people how to live their life because he never knew what it was to not have everything handed to him on a silver, no wait, gold platter. Well, carry on, happy advising.

I may be obnoxious. I'm not rich however! I've mostly just gotten myself off the wheel of materialism by creatively living like an urban Buddhist.

People put themselves down too much and sometimes seek sympathy when many of their problems are well within their power to improve. When people mention "practical" problems they're often rather easy to solve with effort and focus; but spiritual or philosophical distress is a whole other cookie.

[Oculus Sinister]

I may be obnoxious. I'm not rich however! I've mostly just gotten myself off the wheel of materialism by creatively living like an urban Buddhist.

People put themselves down too much and sometimes seek sympathy when many of their problems are well within their power to improve. When people mention "practical" problems that are often rather easy to solve with effort and focus; but spiritual or philosophical distress is a whole other cookie.

I think you have two options for your future. You can either:

A. Shut the fuck up.

B. Become a student advisor. The world needs more know it alls and academia could definitely use a few more.

Good day. I have a garden to toil or some other pretend philosophical bullshit doctorine to live by. Give me a while to make some other stuff up, "Straight from the horse's mouth."

In other words, just because you live like a fucking pansy doesn't mean the rest of us want to or have any desire to. Not everyone likes the idea of frolicking around in their hippie vegetable garden and living on a college campus until they are in their mid 60's trying to chase the "local muff" around. I think you need to realize how full of shit and hypocritical your stupid ass living situation and life is. I see you as what Ted Kazinski(sp) describe in his manifesto. A left-wing liberal who praises his left-wing liberalism by rebelling against society like some sort of god damn circus freak.

WTF is an urban buddhist? If I may, GIANT LOSER was my first thought upon reading this garbage.

[Kropotkin]

I think you have two options for your future. You can either:

A. Shut the fuck up.

B. Become a student advisor. The world needs more know it alls and academia could definitely use a few more.

Good day. I have a garden to toil or some other pretend philosophical bullshit doctorine to live by. Give me a while to make some other stuff up, "Straight from the horse's mouth."

In other words, just because you live like a fucking pansy doesn't mean the rest of us want to or have any desire to. Not everyone likes the idea of frolicking around in their hippie vegetable garden and living on a college campus until they are in their mid 60's trying to chase the "local muff" around. I think you need to realize how full of shit and hypocritical your stupid ass living situation and life is. I see you as what Ted Kazinski(sp) describe in his manifesto. A left-wing liberal who praises his left-wing liberalism by rebelling against society like some sort of god damn circus freak.

WTF is an urban buddhist? If I may, GIANT LOSER was my first thought upon reading this garbage.


I like you.

Feel free to lay the smack down whenever you want.

[Dr. Haight]

I think you have two options for your future. You can either:

A. Shut the fuck up. Likewise, I will give you two choices and your option 'A' is one of them.

Option 'B' would be, "Write something like this again and be banned, or Purgatized."

I prefer choice 'A', but clearly, it's up to you. ;)

[Jennywocky]

This is the NT emotional strip club.

I was thinking "The NT Breakfast Club," where everyone is Anthony Michael Hall... but your analogy probably has more universal appeal.

[Jennywocky]

Fine. It's my turn to self-indulgently bitch about myself.

I'm sitting here alone at a computer.
My family has fallen asleep.
It's not even 11pm yet.
I'm alone.

I'm 38 years old.

I was valedictorian of my high school class without even trying.
Many of my teachers voiced expectations for me to succeed on a large scale.
People have always complimented me on my creative abilities (music, art, writing), as well as my intelligence.

I began composing music in high school and expected to make it in the music business. When I entered a contest or two and felt like the outcome was a sham, I quit and went off by myself. (A mistake.) I am full of ideas, I have composed numerous songs (mostly instrumental over the last ten years) but never [commit to] finishing anything, and am either too lazy or too introverted to deal with people long enough to find the support I need to publish anything.

I married someone who was very different from me, even though we fought all the time before the marriage and people dropped hints that it was a mistake. The entire marriage has been a struggle to keep things alive. Mostly, we keep things moving. We are like brother and sister in our commitment to each other and trying to work together, but romance? What one likes, the other does not; and the common bonds seem to dwindle to little but children recently. She feels alone; so do I; often I don't care, either being too lazy or numb to continue to pour energy into this and make things work somehow.

(Can they? I don't know. Sometimes I'm enough of an ass to want to just give up... regardless of the impact on everyone else in my family. My marriage is failing. I don't even know if I want it to survive. I love her as a person, but I'm tired and take very little joy in being together. I want to go to bed. I want to sleep a dreamless sleep. I want to wake up somewhere else or not at all.)

I have numerous book projects I've begun but never finished. My best friend has been slaving away the last few months (he's had his own dry spells, while *I* was the one doing the work) on our joint series. I've been completely unmotivated to do anything. We started work on this stuff in 1996. It's been over ten years. Will we ever finish it? Will I ever care enough to feel motivated to clean up the last details?

I work a job that feels soulless. My work has always sucked, for me. The worst advice I ever took was from my father -- to go into "technical work and make a lot of money, so I could do the stuff I liked in my free time." I guess listening to an alcoholic that never spent time with HIS family was a foolish mistake on my part, because I don't have free time nowadays unless it's at someone ELSE'S expense. I don't leave my current job because I can't afford to risk my family's income... and because I am scared -- scared I will make a mistake, scared because I don't know what I *would* be doing otherwise... it's all silly pipe dreams that I'm not even sure I would like, once I tried them. And so I sit like a lazy foolish unmotivated ass, doing NOTHING... and I will die this way, at this rate.

My father has been sober for a year, after 40 years of drinking. He and my mother are finally experiencing SOME of the marriage she deserved years ago. I don't care. I barely talk to them anymore. If they died, it wouldn't matter much to me beyond the technicalities, in terms of sheer practical impact on my life. I never see them. I don't feel like I hate them. I just don't have anything I feel like investing in.

I used to have a faith. After a lifetime of struggles where my core belief in God never wavered, I suddenly felt like I lost everything last fall. Now I feel like a pariah and infidel, wondering if I deserve hell because I have given up and no longer am sure what to believe, nor very sure if I *want* to believe.

My biggest weakness (I think) is that, if I am not sure what to do, I do nothing at all. Pathetic.

I am 38 years old. I feel like I have wasted my life. I take anti-depressants. I go to therapy once every two weeks and talk about things deeply, get a handle on myself... and still find no solutions, because there are no solutions except for simply choosing to CHANGE MY LIFE and I am too pathetic to take risks.

Most days I sit around feeling somewhat suicidal, or like hurting myself. I don't like to look at myself in the mirror and hate what I see. I am not happy as who I am and wish I was someone else. I am passive and pathetic. I don't feel like I have an identity. Or my identity is not what I have to pretend to be.

Sometimes when I post, I feel very confident and sure of myself, and useful, and helpful; I feel liked; and within the space of 15 minutes, for no apparent reason other than a bunch of subtle undercurrents that are no one's fault, I can feel like I am foolish, stupid, pathetic, silly, and everyone is just laughing at me or rolling their eyes at the things I have to say, and I just want to crawl in a hole and die. (Tonight is one of those times, if you haven't figured it out yet.)

And, of course, I sit here and flagellate myself for spectacle so that the world might watch and be entertained, because it's the only attention I can find at the moment... and any attention is better than none, because I want to scream and yell and have no other way to do it and feel HEARD.... even if i am to be embarrassed tomorrow for behaving this way.

(Yes, I know, another one of my problems is that I'm bad at boundaries and alternate between telling people too much and then not enough about myself and what I am thinking and feeling. How many people do I drive away by sharing too much too soon?)

I care. I don't care. Whatever. What not.

I know lots of wonderful things, I have many wonderful insights, I might be smart and calm and objective and fair and kind and considerate and compassionate and a host of shit, you might all think highly of me... but my life is in shambles and it hasn't done ME a real ounce of good.

I feel like I am a complete waste of a human being, and anything I could have been has been lost, with no real way to regain it.

I don't need reassurances, nor am I actually fishing for "strokes" -- and smarmy responses, if any, will feel fake and inauthentic. I think I just want to stop living the lie and admit how screwed up and unhappy I am, have everyone know it, and then move on. I think I just want to feel heard for a moment, then I can breathe a sigh of relief.

Anyway. Slinking away now.

(If anyone would like to consider this some sort of sick, twisted flirting, I suppose that's their prerogative.)

[Nightning]

My biggest weakness (I think) is that, if I am not sure what to do, I do nothing at all. Pathetic.

I am 38 years old. I feel like I have wasted my life. I take anti-depressants. I go to therapy once every two weeks and talk about things deeply, get a handle on myself... and still find no solutions, because there are no solutions except for simply choosing to CHANGE MY LIFE and I am too pathetic to take risks.

Sometimes when I post, I feel very confident and sure of myself, and useful, and helpful; I feel liked; and within the space of 15 minutes, for no apparent reason other than a bunch of subtle undercurrents that are no one's fault, I can feel like I am foolish, stupid, pathetic, silly, and everyone is just laughing at me or rolling their eyes at the things I have to say, and I just want to crawl in a hole and die. (Tonight is one of those times, if you haven't figured it out yet.)


Wow... you're the last person I suspected to feel that way. You definitely came off as confident, knowledgeable and competent to me. But then again I'm new here and am not exactly great at reading people.

Well sometimes typing/venting helps.



(Yes, I know, another one of my problems is that I'm bad at boundaries and alternate between telling people too much and then not enough about myself and what I am thinking and feeling. How many people do I drive away by sharing too much too soon?)

:blink: If people are driven away that easily... are they worth keeping around?



I don't need reassurances, nor am I actually fishing for "strokes" -- and smarmy responses, if any, will feel fake and inauthentic. I think I just want to stop living the lie and admit how screwed up and unhappy I am, have everyone know it, and then move on. I think I just want to feel heard for a moment, then I can breathe a sigh of relief.

You've been heard. Hope you feel better soon.

[Toonia]

Wow... you're the last person I suspected to feel that way. You definitely came off as confident, knowledgeable and competent to me. But then again I'm new here and am not exactly great at reading people.It doesn't surprise me much. Many of the really intelligent, creative, sensitive people i know are completely tortured inside.

[Ferrus]

It doesn't surprise me much. Many of the really intelligent, creative, sensitive people i know are completely tortured inside.
I thought this was common knowledge.

[antireconciler]

I don't need reassurances, nor am I actually fishing for "strokes" -- and smarmy responses, if any, will feel fake and inauthentic. I think I just want to stop living the lie and admit how screwed up and unhappy I am, have everyone know it, and then move on. I think I just want to feel heard for a moment, then I can breathe a sigh of relief.

My thought is that you would regret it if you were allowed to write so honestly but then not allow anyone to relate.

Good God, if I don't feel better for you! (I can only trust you would believe me!)

So you know though, I've very much enjoyed reading your posts, and think you have well thought out ideas and a great sense of humor. I've tried a few times to lure you into conversation in my own perhaps needless indirectness because I've found what you said to be very insightful and refreshing, but doubted whether anything I said could interest you. Perhaps it doesn't, but it's only right for me to be honest about it.

I sometimes wonder if people think I try to talk down to them, but I'll trust that you're capable of coming to the right conclusion for yourself about that.

[In...TP]

nominated intp of the year

[songbird36]

Fortunato:

*Hugs*

'Nuff said..

[FineLine]

[...] I am 38 years old. I feel like I have wasted my life. [...]

I have pretty much the same life as you, but I think my life is great. Really. I feel like I have life by the balls.

As I read it, you seem to be worrying about not living up to some imaginary standard: God's will for you, your potential when you were a kid, the goals and ambitions you set for yourself (the unfinished book), other's people's expectations... but all those things are pretty much imaginary.

I grew up with no exposure to religion. I went through a bad spell in my early 20s and tried out religion as a possible answer; I read the Bible from cover to cover, attended services, etc. But it was terrible. Suddenly there was a divine camera in the sky recording all my actions and thoughts; suddenly everything I did, said, and thought had meaning. But then finally I did enough research to satisfy myself that religion was crap, and I was free again. My actions, words, and thoughts were meaningless again. It was wonderful. I could do as I pleased again without worrying if I was being sufficiently productive or helpful or whatever.

I have a father, step-mother, and two brother, two sisters, and two step-sisters (and their kids and grandkids), and I jettisoned all of them a long time ago. I haven't heard from some of them in over a decade; some still send me gifts and cards every birthday and Christmas, and I don't respond. They just got in the way. Any good that they contributed was always saddled with expectations about what I owed the family. I got into a feud with a couple of them 15 years ago and used that as an excuse to skip out family reunions. Once I skipped out of enough reunions, I simply slipped out of contact with the rest of the family. Without family, I'm that much more meaningless and that much more free to do as I please.

My job is neither good nor bad, it just is. It's best when it has no meaning and just brings in the paycheck and occupies my day. I'm good at it, so it's not a strain by any means, and the money is great. Once in a while a little of my work might end up in the newspaper and suddenly I worry that my work might actually mean something. The less meaning, the more freedom. I do my work, cover my ass by observing the necessary protocols and documenting anything controversial, and I walk out of the office with a clear conscience and an empty brain at 5:30.

I put effort into my wife. Partly it's an INFP thing--I really do get a rush out of treating her like a queen; partly it's a man thing--you keep the women happy; and partly it's a fear thing--she's the only person who really has enough access to me to disturb my equanimity. So I give her time and care and we do a lot together, and it feels great to be in a good marriage. But even there, after 7 1/2 years together, I'm going through the motions in many ways. If I can do things by the numbers, that suits me.

My past is utterly meaningless and gone. I consider friends absolutely replaceable and currently have no friends dating back more than a couple years. I take care of my acquaintances and look out for their interests, but they had better reciprocate or they're gone. I don't keep pictures or keepsakes. Freedom means starting fresh each day, with no more objective than to show up at work in the morning and take the wife out dancing in the evening.

All this freedom and meaninglessness leaves me lots of energy and time for simply puttering about and enjoying the moment. When I was young, I dated lots of different women and traveled around the world to get as wide experience of life as possible. Nowadays my ambitions have shrunk a bit, and I'm happy to blast the stereo, fix a drink, and putter around the house fixing stuff; or chit-chat with coworkers at work; or work on a complex step on the dance floor; or spend a couple weeks of vacation on the road with the wife doing a car trip around the country and just watch the countryside roll by as I drive.

I keep my entertainments light and meaningless so that I can sate myself without the experiences leaving any trace or mark on my consciousness; the next day I can wake up and do it again. With nothing to achieve and no expectations, I really can take pleasure in simple things like discussing the weather with a stranger at a party and watching which words he emphasizes, and then divining from that where to take the conversation next. Everything and everyone that I meet during the day is an enjoyable little mystery to be unraveled, but nothing has meaning or leaves a mark.

I fear having any meaning in my life because I worry that I'll end up like you. There will be divine cameras in the sky, and mourning over lost opportunities and foiled expectations, and tracking down family and then getting saddled with their expectations, and unfinished projects and unfulfilled ambitions weighing me down, etc. Frankly I would rather just putter, dance, drink, blast the stereo, have good raunchy sex with the wife, and enjoy the countryside rolling by outside the car window, all without guilt or worrying about what happened yesterday or what I'm supposed to be doing tomorrow.

I pay my taxes, recycle, and am generally a responsible member of society--it's the path of least resistance. But beyond that, it's my call. And I choose meaninglessness.

I post on message boards when I appear to be the most knowledgeable about a given subject or can put a new spin on something. If someone shows up with more knowledge, then I'll yield the thread. But I post because it's easy. Who cares what the audience thinks? Friends, audiences, and message boards are disposable and easily replaced. The members of a board will let me know when I've worn out my welcome, and I'll go elsewhere. Beyond that, I don't worry. There's nothing at stake. It doesn't mean anything. I'm just one voice among millions, and I have no more impact than the rest.

Anyway, Fortunato, take that all as you please. As I see it, we have much the same life. (In fact everyone past the first glow of youth has pretty much the same life.) As far as I can tell, the only real difference is that you think your life should have meaning or "soul" or whatever, and you're sad because it doesn't. (Though maybe I'm misunderstanding you and misinterpreting what precisely is making your life so miserable.) Meantime, I find that my life works best when it doesn't have meaning, I've done my best to purge it of any possible meaning, and I'm delighted with the result. Life is good!

FL

[Kropotkin]

Fortunato--

We've exchanged pms before, but I write here instead of a pm for the sake of posterity and for lurkers- especially the distressed mid-later 30s-somethings who are facing down middle-age, where the false comforts of youth have been exhausted and catabolized to the bone. I'm just going to write what comes to mind so it'll be a bit unstructured, but I do have several conclusions and recommendations.

A small caveat: I've not lived a conventional life (wife/career/kids/etc). As I've alluded to in other posts, I've lived in something of a twilight zone my whole adult life. I am an adult adolescent in many ways and would probably considered a "loser" at first glance; though I'm in a much stronger financial posture than most other people because I've lived minimalistically my whole life and saved my money and made wise investments; if my income streams stopped I could live for years before I'd have to worry. I've valued my freedom and independence more than anything else and have made what to most people would seem like painful material sacrifices. This has come at its own price (there always is one)... but enough for now.

Your life seems objectively successful. You have not taken the path of least resistance when it mattered. Most people blame their unhappiness on lack of income (i.e., they're in DEBT up to their eyeballs), frustrated career paths, and other practical barriers. They believe that "if only..." they had more money or a nicer house or better job then they could be happy. Their beliefs are flawed (imho), but the frustration they feel is real.

These yearnings and desires are mental projections that set up chimerical visions of happiness. INxPs are particularly prone to this behavior which is why we're, on the whole, so much more depressive or sad (not depressed). We dream and see too much and the real world never measures up to our complex internal estimations of it. Sensors are so much happier than us because they just accept the world at face value. Aren't they lucky?

The way you write suggests a certain amount of unrecognized cognitive distortion. You feel like a "complete waste of a human being"-- yet you by objective estimation are anything but that! You're middle class or perhaps even borderline upper-middle class. You have a career that utilizes your talents, even though you dis-value it. You have a wife, kids, and are materially probably fairly well off. You've the trappings of success that a great many people will never achieve. Do you realize this? Think of all the people slaving away in $12/hr jobs, often with college degrees, who are our age. I know lots of them. Just ponder this point for a moment because it's important.

As I note above, they tell themselves: if only I had a well-paying job, then I'd be happy. Or: if only I had a husband or wife, then I'd be happy. Or: if only I had nice house in the suburbs, then life would be grand.

While what you have isn't perfect (whose situation is?), you do generally have that to which most people desperately aspire. Yet, it's seemingly meaningless to you. Many people would tell you that you're a false piss-ant to think that your life is so horrible; or an incorrigible ingrate. Many people would love to have the luxury of your problems.

This point reminds me last year of a friend who is a retired multi-millionaire and is in his 60s (an ENTJ). He was all vexed about his taxes and how much he'd have to pay (like it mattered?) His manilla envelope was five inches thick with paperwork for the year: trusts, partnerships, mutual funds, etc. He was all dour and unhappy about it. I had to remind him: thousands of people would kill to have the luxury of his worry!

What is the lesson: you cannot escape your situation, but merely manage it. Everyone's life swings between the pendulum of desire and boredom. When we don't possess a thing or situation we yearn for, we build it up into a mythical entity. We begin to believe that happiness rests in its attainment. We feel frustrated, unhappy, "depressed." Yet, the odd thing is, once we, and often at great exertion, attain that to which we aspire it oddly loses its charm. We grow bored, until some new "thing" enters our mind and starts the whole sordid process all over again! Most people I dare say never realize this until they're very old and they've been played along and spent themselves on the never-ending unsatisfactory cycles of willing and attainment. Such is why the face of the elderly is almost always the same: the look of disappointment. (I grew up in elderly rest homes as a child because it's where my mother worked, and know this very well.)

Another way of saying all this is: there is no hope. As Nietzsche wrote: "Hope is the last evil." You've got to give up hope and instead seek ascension and distance from the world, yet while still being in the world because you have no other choice, save the often pathetic decision of moving to an ashram or a cabin in the woods. That there is no hope, if you can truly come to believe it, is the most liberating thing! Success is one of the greatest lies. It's vulgar and only ends in a bad pain instead of a sweet pain. One mustn't ignore the practical needs required to support himself, but one shouldn't be driven on blinded by its fake and inauthentic promises either. It's hard though.

When you give up hope, you can own and even come to cherish your pain instead of trying (and failing) to run away from it. All of this is a process and is easier said than done. Sweet pain can be so joyful however; a bias toward detachment isn't easy when everything and everyone around you is crying out for more and more! (More money, stuff, sex, prestige...) All those illusions are present daily, hourly beckoning you to believe them- to get your willing self back on the wheel of successive frustration vs. boredom revolutions. Almost all of modern day economic and cultural life is based on it: what I in an inspired moment came to call the "vampiric suburban corporate spectacle." It's insidious and invidious: the endless call to manufactured needs and wants; where we are afflicting ourselves to death with pleasure and shallow amusements that only lead to spiritual and emotional squalor.

Practically speaking: productive work and creative pursuits are the best antidotes in daily life toward suspending the pendulum. If you do things for the sake a supposed happiness that follows from them, it's a lie. A damn lie! If you can do them for their own sake, you are free. So, in this sense, it's quite possible to be very much "in the world" in terms of economic success while not being (blindly) tempted by its fakeness. One must find his or her own balance, and the ashram or even being homeless shouldn't be dismissed as an option in extreme cases.

Consider all this "input", not a solution, for you've of course got to ultimately find your own path. Above all else, take consolation that you are not alone. That's the only authentic comfort there is, for all other prescriptions are either chemical or wishful thinking.

I'll stop here.

I welcome criticism to what I've written from anyone. The more insightful and gnawingly critical the better!

I'll note a few sources for you to pursue:
Notes from Underground by Dostoyevsky.
The World as Will and Representation by Schopenhauer.
The Schopenhauer Cure (a novel) by Irvin Yalom

[Kropotkin]

I have pretty much the same life as you, but I think my life is great. Really. I feel like I have life by the balls.

...

Meantime, I find that my life works best when it doesn't have meaning, I've done my best to purge it of any possible meaning, and I'm delighted with the result. Life is good!

FL

FineLine.. no offense (really), but you sound so full of myopic BS. If you truly believe what you write, then more power to you and I am envious, in a small way. This will sound conceited and of course reflects my own biases, but I don't see how any thinking human could ever honestly say that they've removed "meaning" from their lives. Your whole formulation reeks of denial or even pathology.

There is something to be said for the attitude of not giving a shit about things- it comes with age- but nowhere near to the degree that you suggest.

You're describing a very personal formulation that probably cannot be easily explained to anyone else. I wouldn't want to lose myself so shallowly in the "everydayness" you describe; it's just way too Brave New World-ish. Such a life seems pointless. If you could take a pill that gave you bliss 24/7, would you take it? It seems you would.

Again, don't take this as a personal attack. I don't mean in it in that way at all!

I would, however, like to genuinely understand though how you can thrive on "meaninglessness."

Thanks.

[Tayshaun]

I would, however, like to genuinely understand though how you can thrive on "meaninglessness."

Thanks.

It seems impossible for 5w4's to thrive on meaninglessness. I naturally seek meaning: from the analytical scientific viewpoint, from the journalistic non-attached observer viewpoint, but also in the spiritual, yet non-doctrinal, "grand scheme of things" way.

Maybe this is mostly a 5 and more specifically a 5w4 trait. Our curse.