Re The Strange Death of Dr. Calipari

[Claverhouse]

After the not astounding clearing of the soldiers who shot dead Nicola Calipari as he escorted a freed hostage in Former Iraq, there's a piece (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22945) in the Inquirer with a few links on a US declassified pdf...


Italian newspaper Repubblica has posted a copy of the pdf here (http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/rapportousacalipari.pdf) . The original was on a US military website but was removed after the newspaper showed that all you have to do is copy and paste from the pdf to read all the bits that seem to have been struck out by the censors' black pen. Ah, military intelligence...

However, they did fire 'warning shots',



Sgrena has told CBS that the car she was in was going 30 mph. At 30 mph, a car is going 15 yards per second. So, according to the U.S. military, they fired warning shots within 2.7 seconds of flashing a warning light, and used "deadly force" 2.3 seconds after that. And actually, if the U.S. military story were true and the car were really travelling at "high speed", let's be generous and call that only 45 mph, that's 22 yards per second, meaning 1.8 seconds between warning lights and warning shots, and 1.6 seconds between warning shots and deadly shots.

Now, there are variables, but typical perception plus reaction times are of the order of 1.5 seconds, that is, the time it takes to perceive a problem (such as a warning signal) and move your foot to the brake. That means that, according to the military's story, shots were fired at the vehicle less than 0.3 seconds after the vehicle could possibly have begun to slow down, even if they were paying close attention and they had immediately perceived that the alleged flashing light was meant as a signal to stop. There's a lesson here about speeding. If there was a 5mph speed limit on all motorways...



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[crule81]

I think there is bullshit on both sides. The US military probably screwed up. They have a history of screwing up and accidently killing people they shouldn't have, just like any other military. My great uncle was killed by a shell fired by a US Naval vessel in the Phillipines during WWII (and he was in the US Army).

However, this Italian journalist was on the far left wing, clearly does not agree with Italian involvement in Iraq, and has an interest in portraying the US military in a bad light. I think most of her comments are BS or at least gross exaggerations of the truth.

This was a tragic mistake, just like when my great uncle was killed. While the US should not try to cover up the negligent conduct of its troops, it was not some kind of conspiracty to punish Italy for paying ransoms or whatever. If the Italians want to pull out, so be it. The Italians' entry into a war has generally been seen as a bonus for the Italians' opponents since the modern Italian state was formed in the 1870's.

Edit: I'm pissed-off today and the Italians have felt my wrath!

[coffeezombie]

I've heard that the Italians made a mistake in not coordinating their movements with the Americans. Yes, the American soldiers acted paranoid and shouldn't be there in the first place, of course, but they are basically the occupying force and should probably be made aware of any "friendly movements."

[Johannes de Silencio]

1.) Flash lights in drivers face to make him blind
2.) Shoot next to the car to get him scared
3.) Fire 11 shots at the car to kill everyone inside.

Sounds like your regular night in Iraq...

[Claverhouse]

I think there is bullshit on both sides. The US military probably screwed up. They have a history of screwing up and accidently killing people they shouldn't have, just like any other military. My great uncle was killed by a shell fired by a US Naval vessel in the Phillipines during WWII (and he was in the US Army).
[Unpleasantly] You do that to yourselves as well as to your allies ?

There's never any great demand to be placed on the Right Flank of honour to a US battalion. Nor any other flank.


However, this Italian journalist was on the far left wing, clearly does not agree with Italian involvement in Iraq, and has an interest in portraying the US military in a bad light. I think most of her comments are BS or at least gross exaggerations of the truth.
Come off it, what's her political viewpoint got to do with it ? She was grabbed by the insurgents, threatened with death, the Italian govt. gets her free, their envoy sits beside her on the way to the airport, and gets shot dead by the US military.

Even I might feel pissed off.

Certainly troops everywhere shoot at moving cars --- except perhaps when carloads of explosives are being driven into army-bases, exactly when they should open fire --- the Brits were quite trigger-happy in Belfast at checkpoints [ dunno why: even I worked out they could have just put retractable tyre-shreaders in front of the cars ]: but on a motorway, a car full of europeans going to the airport, and it happens to contain diplomatic staff ? OK, 'tragic fuck-up', but in that case punish the soldiers. Having a gun in Iraq isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card...


Claverhouse :ph34r:


The Italians' entry into a war has generally been seen as a bonus for the Italians' opponents since the modern Italian state was formed in the 1870's.

Edit: I'm pissed-off today and the Italians have felt my wrath!
I've noticed that we don't seem to have any Italian members... :)

[crule81]

Of course I would be pissed off, just as if some negligent driver hit my car and injured me. But to imply that it was somehow an intentional act by the US government indicates her agenda.

[Chukamuk]

[Unpleasantly] You do that to yourselves as well as to your allies ?[Very Unpleasantly]Your generic use of the word "You" and "yourselves" is pissing me off.

Not every American agrees with our government's stance on the War in Iraq. If you want to bandstand about a certain event that happened, that's fine. But, don't start this holier-than-thou finger pointing and sweeping generalizations about Americans. Last time I checked British troops were over there too. And wars being what they are I'm sure this is not the last horror story we'll hear. So, be careful. Next time it may be an incident involving a British soldier.


There's never any great demand to be placed on the Right Flank of honour to a US battalion. Nor any other flank....There is no honor in this war. Nor in any war. This is not some fucking sporting event. People are dieing.

[crule81]

There is no honor in this war. Nor in any war. This is not some fucking sporting event. People are dieing.

The British, more than others, do have a historical tendency to see war as an extension of their obsession with sports. Especially at the beginning of the First World, the British felt they were "playing the game" and expected others to do so as well. This mentality was mostly shattered at the Somme, where the Tommies who dribbled the soccer ball into no-man's land played their last match.

[cathmc]

I heard a news story that said there was some satellite footage that showed the vehicle was going 60mph. Who knows if that's true.

I am a pinko, leftie, Bush-hater and this whole war makes me spitting mad BUT...I think the soldiers are just totally screwed no matter what they do. I cannot even imagine the level of adrenaline in a situation like that. Just sounds to me like a tragic accident. Probably avoidable, probably some fault on both sides (was the checkpoint clearly marked? who knows? Could/should the driver have known the route before going? Probably)

And what's up with the whole Abu Graib thing where almost all the commanding officers get off scott-free? That is just ridiculous, half my family is in the military and I know what that culture is, and enlisted people/lower-ranked officers don't just create this shit. They found a couple scapegoats and hung 'em out to dry. It's disgusting.

[Claverhouse]

[Very Unpleasantly]Your generic use of the word "You" and "yourselves" is pissing me off.

Not every American agrees with our government's stance on the War in Iraq. If you want to bandstand about a certain event that happened, that's fine. But, don't start this holier-than-thou finger pointing and sweeping generalizations about Americans. Last time I checked British troops were over there too. And wars being what they are I'm sure this is not the last horror story we'll hear. So, be careful. Next time it may be an incident involving a British soldier.

There is no honor in this war. Nor in any war. This is not some fucking sporting event. People are dieing.
If you reread that para I wasn't referring to the US war as such: I was referring to the time-honoured American practice of 'Blue-on-Blue' to their apprehensive allies, or 'Friendly Fire' by which you shoot haphazardly in the direction of those you deem the enemy forces and hit foreigners fighting on your own side: of which I have heard enough British veterans of WWII mention, quite strongly. [ And considering various incidents regarding France, during their 'liberation', and ah, some incidents when French or Chinese Embassies have not been the safest places to be when the USAF has a payload, this may have been a decisive factor in refusing to join The Coalition of the Willing --- other than Saddam's generosity. ]

And there have been incidents of British soldiers torturing and murdering Iraqis: none though of them shooting Americans by accident.

Still, in the tragic case of Dr. Calipari, the soldiers appear to have been very good shots indeed. If I shot at a moving vehicle I would be very lucky to hit the tyres. ( Of course, I'd aim at them rather than the occupants. )



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[crule81]

When one nation does the bulk of the fighting, odds are that they will inflict the most friendly-fire casualties. The fact is also that the US military is much more aggresive in doctrine than other western militaries, so there is a trade-off. We attack others often and regardless of the legality or morality of this fact, it leads to more collateral damage as a matter of course.

[Imen de Naars]

I've noticed that we don't seem to have any Italian members... :)

:ph34r:


I agree with most of you tough.