What is wrong with you people? [Archive]

Hustler

6 May 2005, 02:47 AM

I read the posts of my fellow INTPs with a combination of disgust and amusement, but mainly the former. How many threads can we possibly see where some socially-inept, confused youth is asking for help talking to women, or where some washed-up never-has-been is drowning us in the accounts of his descent into the misery that is his life? At least there are a few threads on general depression and underachievement thrown in there from time to time to spice things up.

Using your INTP status as an excuse for your misery and failure is, at best, a weak cop-out. I'm an INTP and I have found life on Earth to be quite accomodating, despite being subjected daily to the idiocies which come with living in an SJ world. I don't think I'm alone in this. And, yes, I detested high-school, performed poorly in college and hated every job I ever had.

But, instead of just ranting, I would like to be helpful. So, for your reading pleasure, I offer some advice:

1 - Embrace disdain. As one capable of critical thought, you have a right to disregard others and look down on them with an arrogant eye. They are wrong, you are right, and they can be made to pay for their stupidity. All people are not created equal, just be sure you're on the right side of the bell curve.

2 - Money can buy happiness. I know we're told time and again in our youth that this is not true but, let me tell you, it is. One nice thing that comes with having a lot of it is that you don't have to waste time acquiring more of it, unless you feel like it. Some people view money as an end unto itself, but I prefer to think of it as a key which opens doors the world around, which may otherwise remain closed. Use your strategic ability and INTP perspective to use it in an optimal fashion.

3 - Jobs are for suckers. Yes, I realize this seems contrary to my above statements on money, in that jobs are the most well-known method of acquiring wealth, but money and jobs are not mutually inclusive. Let's face it, INTPs are just not cut out for the overwhelming majority of jobs out there. Most jobs are boring, repetitive and thankless. Even academia requires that you wake up in the morning and go to a classroom to tell a bunch of ungrateful jackasses something new about Hamiltonian operators or the thoughts of New Criticism or the social practices of dirt-farming tribes in Burundi or WHATEVER. Learn or devise a way to carve out your own niche where you answer to no one, have no one answering to you and have coworkers only if you want them, not because you have to. As an INTP, you will find nothing as valuable in life as outside-the-box thinking.

4 - Morality is relative. Kant was wrong, there is no Moral Imperative. The world is rife with chattel to be used or discarded in your rise to X* as you see fit. I do not advocate being a sociopath, but I do suggest you would do well to devise your own conceptions of right and wrong and to understand the way of amorality in optimizing your decision-making.

5 - Life is a game. Develop a strategy and win. When that strategy gets boring (and it will), develop a new strategy and win again. When winning gets boring, read a book or something.

6 - Never hold yourself to their standards; never let them hold you to their standards. They're idiots. They deserve your wrath. If you are miserable, you are playing their game by their rules. You have the power to bring that to an end. Do you have the courage, or would you rather continue to fall back on your INTPness as an excuse to fail?

*Where X is dominance, power, ultimate laziness, nunchuck skills, computer hacking skills, drawing skills, wealth, infamy or whatever the fuck else interests you.

coffeezombie

6 May 2005, 02:49 AM

They'd like you a lot over at INTJ Central, guy.

Star

6 May 2005, 02:51 AM

You're so right! I'm now ready to take life by the balls.

MacGuffin

6 May 2005, 02:52 AM

[backs off slowly from thread]

Hustler

6 May 2005, 02:54 AM

They'd like you a lot over at INTJ Central, guy.

I have a feeling they wouldn't like me anywhere. That's the price of being a jackass.

Johannes de Silencio

6 May 2005, 02:55 AM

Funny. You should definately think about writing a self-help book.

"The Six Ways INTPs can turn into SJs"

Hustler

6 May 2005, 02:55 AM

[backs off slowly from thread]

I'm talking to YOU, Vader. Quit backing off!

MacGuffin

6 May 2005, 02:56 AM

I'm talking to YOU, Vader. Quit backing off!
[begins running]

booyalab

6 May 2005, 02:57 AM

do they have internet access in prisons now?

booyalab

6 May 2005, 02:58 AM

Hustler, I actually agree with everthing you said, I decided not that long ago to try and take this appraoch to life.... the problem arises out of most INTPs detachment from life and themselves, it is debilitating to any goals thier egos may have.

Or you just got lucky, you just have the right brain chemistry, probably left-brained or something.

keep your wrath and diabolical condescension far away from me, kthx

Lee

6 May 2005, 02:58 AM

You just got lucky and have the right brain chemistry to succeed.

coffeezombie

6 May 2005, 02:59 AM

I'd rather work at some normal job with some interesting people, and then go home and enjoy my free time, then to put in the work to find my "proper niche" in the world.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 02:59 AM

Funny. You should definately think about writing a self-help book.

"The Six Ways INTPs can turn into SJs"

Obviously you have no concept of how an SJ thinks if you believe my suggestions result in an SJ mindset. That said, given the way you spell 'definately,' I'm not so sure you have any concept of how an INTP thinks, either. You should think of writing...actually, you should just stop writing stuff altogether.

booyalab

6 May 2005, 03:00 AM

You just got lucky and have the right brain chemistry to succeed.

I captured your deleted post :devil: MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

mgb

6 May 2005, 03:05 AM

You're so right! I'm now ready to take life by the balls.

Sounds like Frank TJ Mackie to me.

Rule #7 "Respect the cock... and tame the cunt. Tame it."

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:09 AM

You just got lucky and have the right brain chemistry to succeed.

Obviously, I cannot refute this claim in an objective manner, but I think it is an extremely weak argument to suggest an unmeasurable and poorly-understood quantity (brain chemistry) is responsible for my not feeling compelled to whine incessantly about my many failures/shortcomings on these forums and then use my INTP status as an excuse to remain paralyzed in the face of misery.

booyalab

6 May 2005, 03:10 AM

not feeling compelled to whine incessantly about my many failures/shortcomings on these forums and then use my INTP status as an excuse to remain paralyzed in the face of misery.

and it's a damn good thing, because you obviously have a lot.

Lee

6 May 2005, 03:12 AM

Obviously, I cannot refute this claim in an objective manner, but I think it is an extremely weak argument to suggest an unmeasurable and poorly-understood quantity (brain chemistry) is responsible for my not feeling compelled to whine incessantly about my many failures/shortcomings on these forums and then use my INTP status as an excuse to remain paralyzed in the face of misery. Heh, I was joking.

I have been thinking along similar lines for a few months now, even though keeping to that requires a motivation I struggle to muster... stupid emotions!

cjs55

6 May 2005, 03:12 AM

I was actually going to post something similar to this:

6 - Never hold yourself to their standards; never let them hold you to their standards. They're idiots. They deserve your wrath. If you are miserable, you are playing their game by their rules. You have the power to bring that to an end. Do you have the courage, or would you rather continue to fall back on your INTPness as an excuse to fail?

This is true. INTPs complaining about their lack of ability in conforming to SJ standards are in the wrong frame of mind. Those that have actually conformed should be mocked without mercy.

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 03:16 AM

You're just the Father-Magician i've been searching for!

Thanks for breaking down reality and the Universe for us. When do I get to level 13?

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:16 AM

I'd rather work at some normal job with some interesting people, and then go home and enjoy my free time, then to put in the work to find my "proper niche" in the world.

Please close your mind a little more. I think an idea or two may get into your shelter if you're not careful. Basically, what I'm getting out of this response from you is that you are attracted to the comfortable and routine over the idea of finding more satisfaction in something new and unknown. That is to be expected as that is how virtually everyone on the planet thinks, and it seems to work for them. But then again, they're not here on these forums bemoaning their lots in life. All I suggest is that you may find a higher degree of laziness (or whatever you consider enjoyment of free time) achievable once you've found a niche than you do now in your workaday SJ lifestyle, and finding a niche may not be as hard as you think.

Lee

6 May 2005, 03:17 AM

I think part of the problem is most INTPs detachment, not just from life but also from themselves. It is very hard for somebody to be motivated towards selfish goals when they feel so dissasocaited from even themselves. Many INTPs feel that such behaviour would undermine thier impartial view of the world, and thus it would be less truthful to them.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:19 AM

[begins running]

Quit running and try your hand at expressing your thoughts. You are a victim in this world, by your own admission and the words in your own posts. Do you like it like that?

MacGuffin

6 May 2005, 03:21 AM

Quit running and try your hand at expressing your thoughts. You are a victim in this world, by your own admission and the words in your own posts. Do you like it like that?
I AM THE FUCKUP. I FUCKED UP. THE WORLD DID NOT VICTIMIZE ME.

6 May 2005, 03:21 AM

You're just the Father-Magician i've been searching for!

Thanks for breaking down reality and the Universe for us. When do I get to level 13?

[wild laughter]

Jobs are for suckers? I agree... we should all marry rich.

mgb

6 May 2005, 03:21 AM

Quit running and try your hand at expressing your thoughts. You are a victim in this world, by your own admission and the words in your own posts. Do you like it like that?

Now, I'd hate to accuse someone of not using their N. So I won't.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:23 AM

and it's a damn good thing, because you obviously have a lot.

Do I? I will confess that I do get more miserable each time I read one of your pitiable attempts at humor. Please come with something that actually makes me laugh next time. Keep this barrage of 'wit' up and I may have to shoot myself. Internet access in prisons? Good one.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:25 AM

I AM THE FUCKUP. I FUCKED UP. THE WORLD DID NOT VICTIMIZE ME.

How, exactly, did you fuck up? Were you just born that way, or was it a series of events that led to your fuckedupness?

MacGuffin

6 May 2005, 03:26 AM

How, exactly, did you fuck up? Were you just born that way, or was it a series of events that led to your fuckedupness?
I made bad decisions/choices. It was not fate.

Lee

6 May 2005, 03:27 AM

Do I? I will confess that I do get more miserable each time I read one of your pitiable attempts at humor. Please come with something that actually makes me laugh next time. Keep this barrage of 'wit' up and I may have to shoot myself. Internet access in prisons? Good one.
I have a feeling they wouldn't like me anywhere. That's the price of being a jackass. You weren't lying.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:27 AM

Jobs are for suckers? I agree... we should all marry rich.

A viable niche for many. Thank you for providing a concrete example for those in this thread who are unable to intuitively perceive such!

moni

6 May 2005, 03:31 AM

fuck conformity.

and i'm still confused with what an SJ world is :zombie:

would anyone care to explain what a world that accomodates INTP people would be like? and don't just say "such a thing doesn't exist," i want to know what you people think... or envision *woooooo*

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:31 AM

I made bad decisions/choices. It was not fate.

While it is true that there is a correlation between the events of the past and the future in terms of such things as mistakes limiting your options, one should not feel condemned to a life of misery in the future by the errors of the past, as the correlation is not absolute and irrevocable.

MacGuffin

6 May 2005, 03:32 AM

While it is true that there is a correlation between the events of the past and the future in terms of such things as mistakes limiting your options, one should not feel condemned to a life of misery in the future by the errors of the past, as the correlation is not absolute and irrevocable.
I know. I am just frustrated.

Claverhouse

6 May 2005, 03:32 AM

I agree with much of this, and feel the criticisms are based on instinctual misreading.

I read the posts of my fellow INTPs
[ Hint: don't regard them, or anyone else, as fellows. Comrades perhaps, but how little we have in common. ]

And, yes, I detested high-school, performed poorly in college and hated every job I ever had.
Yes. Yes. Yes. --- except I haven't been to college. I'm sure I should hate it though.

But, instead of just ranting, I would like to be helpful. So, for your reading pleasure, I offer some advice:

1 - Embrace disdain. As one capable of critical thought, you have a right to disregard others and look down on them with an arrogant eye. They are wrong, you are right, and they can be made to pay for their stupidity. All people are not created equal, just be sure you're on the right side of the bell curve.
Exactly. Except that it is better to eschew arrogance always. Just thank God every minute of every day that you are not them.

2 - Money can buy happiness. I know we're told time and again in our youth that this is not true but, let me tell you, it is. One nice thing that comes with having a lot of it is that you don't have to waste time acquiring more of it, unless you feel like it. Some people view money as an end unto itself, but I prefer to think of it as a key which opens doors the world around, which may otherwise remain closed. Use your strategic ability and INTP perspective to use it in an optimal fashion.
Money is better than no money, especially from the security angle ( house, no need to work or be beholden to others ).

3 - Jobs are for suckers....Most jobs are boring, repetitive and thankless.

Quite.

but:

Learn or devise a way to carve out your own niche where you answer to no one, have no one answering to you and have coworkers only if you want them, not because you have to.
Not always as easily done as said. Particularly since intps are not necessarily of high intelligence.

4 - Morality is relative. Kant was wrong, there is no Moral Imperative. The world is rife with chattel to be used or discarded in your rise to X* as you see fit. I do not advocate being a sociopath, but I do suggest you would do well to devise your own conceptions of right and wrong and to understand the way of amorality in optimizing your decision-making.
Have to disagree. Although any particular religion or philosophy may not be the perfect way, Order demands that there is a truth to universal morality. And some of us are sociopaths, so your restriction is unnecessarily divisive and discriminatory.

5 - Life is a game. Develop a strategy and win. When that strategy gets boring (and it will), develop a new strategy and win again. When winning gets boring, read a book or something.
Good advice. But the game is only one part of a greater game of cosmic consequence.

6 - Never hold yourself to their standards; never let them hold you to their standards. They're idiots. They deserve your wrath. If you are miserable, you are playing their game by their rules. You have the power to bring that to an end. Do you have the courage, or would you rather continue to fall back on your INTPness as an excuse to fail?
You may void their standards, but they remain in charge of the rules... If by those you fail ( as say the homeless do, whether sadhu saints or violent alcoholics ) you have still failed in this world. One's family may remind one of this occasionally.

Claverhouse :ph34r:

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:33 AM

Now, I'd hate to accuse someone of not using their N. So I won't.

No, please, go ahead. Make some erroneous accusations, I love that shit.

booyalab

6 May 2005, 03:34 AM

Please come with something that actually makes me laugh next time.

Sorry, I dont care about the worthless jerkwad niche.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:35 AM

I know. I am just frustrated.

Dissatisfaction with frustration is as good a springboard as ambition or anything else which drives a person to bettering his lot in life. Of course, you may continue to wallow in frustration, if that's what you really like.

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 03:35 AM

Quit running and try your hand at expressing your thoughts. You are a victim in this world, by your own admission and the words in your own posts. Do you like it like that?

WOAH. WTF?

Mac was having a bad day and was communicating his feelings and thoughts, which is one purpose for this forum. He admitted in 12 step fashion that he has fucked up, then set out to correct the problems. Most of us do not acknowledge our feelings in an eloquent extroverted manner in the real world, but we can attempt this here in this forum for INTPs. Mac is hardly some loser in his parent's basement, because "work just isn't my thing."

MacGuffin

6 May 2005, 03:35 AM

Dissatisfaction with frustration is as good a springboard as ambition or anything else which drives a person to bettering his lot in life. Of course, you may continue to wallow in frustration, if that's what you really like.
I'm not. My post was actually in response to me taking action and causing my wife pain.

It was a rant. Nothing more.

CosmicDust

6 May 2005, 03:36 AM

Funny. You should definately think about writing a self-help book.

"The Six Ways INTPs can turn into SJs"
I would call it "the six ways INTPs can turn into ENTJs," more like it. I know an 8 ENTJ/X online whose goal in life is to beat the system financially.

Johannes de Silencio

6 May 2005, 03:36 AM

Obviously you have no concept of how an SJ thinks if you believe my suggestions result in an SJ mindset. That said, given the way you spell 'definately,' I'm not so sure you have any concept of how an INTP thinks, either. You should think of writing...actually, you should just stop writing stuff altogether.

Whoa, u no likes me spellin'?

I know that for the most part your advice is meant for INTPs to look at their their personality in a positive way, and use it as a strength. But the bottom line is the same old conservative-republican-survival-the-fittest crap that people irrespective of their personality types are fooled into believing. I admit SJ was not the best term to use, but the thought that you can change your lifestyle overnight while adhering to your own inner INTP self is preposterous.

Lee

6 May 2005, 03:37 AM

Yeah, I think almost all INTPs have thought up all this before, doesn't help much though.

MacGuffin

6 May 2005, 03:37 AM

WOAH. WTF?

Mac was having a bad day and was communicating his feelings and thoughts, which is one purpose for this forum. He admitted in 12 step fashion that he has fucked up, then set out to correct the problems. Most of us do not acknowledge our feelings in an eloquent extroverted manner in the real world, but we can attempt this here in this forum for INTPs. Mac is hardly some loser in his parent's basement, because "work just isn't my thing."
:smooch:

It was a very bad day.

CoHo

6 May 2005, 03:40 AM

Using your INTP status as an excuse for your misery and failure is, at best, a weak cop-out. I'm an INTP and I have found life on Earth to be quite accomodating, despite being subjected daily to the idiocies which come with living in an SJ world. I don't think I'm alone in this. And, yes, I detested high-school, performed poorly in college and hated every job I ever had.

Really, what's your point? Why do you give a fuck if some people want to wallow in their own piss?

indie

6 May 2005, 03:42 AM

WOAH. WTF?

Mac was having a bad day and was communicating his feelings and thoughts, which is one purpose for this forum.

haha, you said "feelings" :smooch:

6 May 2005, 03:44 AM

haha, you said "feelings" :smooch:

Yea, it was icky...

[grin]

Meh, why not...

[blows kisses back to indie and mac]

mgb

6 May 2005, 03:44 AM

This all reminds me of Ghosteh.

Brings a tear to my eye.

MacGuffin

6 May 2005, 03:45 AM

This all reminds me of Ghosteh.

Brings a tear to my eye.
No way!

Hustler

6 May 2005, 03:58 AM

Exactly. Except that it is better to eschew arrogance always. Just thank God every minute of every day that you are not them.

Uh, which god is that? If arrogance is justified, and is usually is when dealing with other people, why avoid it? Be humble where it is warranted, sure, but arrogance is a great tool in its ability to stave-off frustration and doubt when constantly faced with the same nonsense the SJ world throws at you.

Not always as easily done as said. Particularly since intps are not necessarily of high intelligence.

Valid point. If you consider yourself stupid, please disregard my advice and enjoy your role as a cog.

Have to disagree. Although any particular religion or philosophy may not be the perfect way, Order demands that there is a truth to universal morality. And some of us are sociopaths, so your restriction is unnecessarily devisive and discriminatory.

We live in a universe of ever-increasing entropy. Why should we be beholden to what order demands? Can you even prove that order demands a universal morality? I don't think it does. Consider, if you will, the history of man and his many so-called "universal truths" (divine descension) which were advocated to propel forward the structure of rule and power which are now seen as completely absurd. Recall that the relativity of morality takes into account the progression of time. What we see as true now will be seen as ridiculous later. It was morally right to burn witches and draw and quarter unfortunate peasants in medieval times, but would that fly now? I don't think so. Morality is shaped by those in power, and they may not always have the best interests of a struggling INTP in mind.

As for the sociopath comment, I'm merely not advocating it, but I'm not going to discard it, either. Just beware of the implications of being labelled as a sociopath in modern society for one's overall happiness quotient. Prison is likely not conducive to more pleasure in life.

Good advice. But the game is only one part of a greater game of cosmic consequence.

This is true. Given an infinity of trials, though, a monkey could defeat Kasparov at a game of chess. This is not to say that a monkey is expected to win against Kasparov in any given game. Life is a matter of likelihood (expectation) and luck (variance). Some people experience a lot of positive variance (good luck) in life and succeed despite all of their idiotic decisions. However, in modern society, the ability to overcome negative variance (bad luck) is greater than it ever has been in history. You can be born into the most unfortunate circumstances and still succeed because you have exercised expectation-maximizing decision-making along the way.

These days, cosmic consequence is no less of a cop-out than is the battlecry of being an INTP.

You may void their standards, but they remain in charge of the rules... If by those you fail ( as say the homeless do, whether sadhu saints or violent alcoholics ) you have still failed in this world. One's family may remind one of this occasionally.

Rules can easily be exploited or simply ignored. The world is a place rife with inefficiencies ready for the outside-the-box thinker to capitalize on. The homeless man has failed in that he has given the possibilities an inadequate amount of consideration, and has taken what seems to be the path of least resistance (in my opinion, an incorrect conclusion). That, or he is an insane Vietnam War veteran who has been trampled by life. Since I doubt such a person is reading these forums, I was not including him as part of my target audience :) That guy's just fucked, period.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:01 AM

Sorry, I dont care about the worthless jerkwad niche.

Wow, you should be a comic writer. I mean, this is pure gold.

booyalab

6 May 2005, 04:07 AM

Wow, you should be a comic writer. I mean, this is pure gold.

thanks :)

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:07 AM

I know that for the most part your advice is meant for INTPs to look at their their personality in a positive way, and use it as a strength. But the bottom line is the same old conservative-republican-survival-the-fittest crap that people irrespective of their personality types are fooled into believing. I admit SJ was not the best term to use, but the thought that you can change your lifestyle overnight while adhering to your own inner INTP self is preposterous.

Again, I find your analysis to be lacking. To suggest that I subscribe to a conservative-republican-survival-[of]-the-fittest worldview is inaccurate. I maintain that INTPs are square pegs who are forced again and again to fit into round holes, partially by the way the world works but partially because they refuse to be proactive in bringing this to an end. I do not advocate making yourself a round peg (turning into an SJ) or reshaping the hole so that it is a square (ENTJ), but rather realizing the world is full of holes of all shapes and sizes, many of which fit very well. I agree that it is very unlikely one can change his lifestyle overnight, but it can never change at all if one never begins the process.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:11 AM

Yeah, I think almost all INTPs have thought up all this before, doesn't help much though.

Thinking != Doing

My point is that INTPs lack the ability to actually take the plunge from time to time and try something new. The irony is that we're very good at completely switching gears and doing something we've never done before. We can figure out a system and adapt as well as anyone, but this sort of thing is discouraged by society (SJ notions of duty and stability) and INTPs who fall into the trap of playing by the SJ rules end up feeling depressed, out of place and powerless to change.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:13 AM

Really, what's your point? Why do you give a fuck if some people want to wallow in their own piss?

Why do you give a fuck why I give a fuck? Well, actually, I don't care why you care, I'll tell you anyway: personal amusement.

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 04:15 AM

Thinking != Doing

My point is that INTPs lack the ability to actually take the plunge from time to time and try something new. The irony is that we're very good at completely switching gears and doing something we've never done before. We can figure out a system and adapt as well as anyone, but this sort of thing is discouraged by society (SJ notions of duty and stability) and INTPs who fall into the trap of playing by the SJ rules end up feeling depressed, out of place and powerless to change.

Every year is getting shorter, never seem to find the time
Plans that either come to naught or a half page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in a quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone the song is over, thought i'd something more to say

PS. I hate when people post song lyrics

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:18 AM

I don't think theres much disputes regarding these "insights" - I personally read them in the vain of "well, no shit" and would be willing to bet others did as well.

I guess the only complaint here is tactfullness or lack thereof.

I'm not in a tactful mood. That's why this is in the Flamethrower forum. If you're looking for tact, I would first advise steering clear of a set of INTP forums altogether and, if that is not possible, at least staying out of the section dedicated to posting flames.

By the way, there do seem to be some disputes regarding these insights. Maybe you should read all of the posts before making such sweeping statements. Some of them are even interesting!

Lee

6 May 2005, 04:20 AM

Thinking != Doing

My point is that INTPs lack the ability to actually take the plunge from time to time and try something new. The irony is that we're very good at completely switching gears and doing something we've never done before. We can figure out a system and adapt as well as anyone, but this sort of thing is discouraged by society (SJ notions of duty and stability) and INTPs who fall into the trap of playing by the SJ rules end up feeling depressed, out of place and powerless to change.
hmm... it reminds me of my INTP evolutionary theory, that the INTP is a survivor but not a great breeder and plays on a tactic of defensive avoidance. /end tangent

But when your actions are at the whim of your emotions, these emotions that exist largely outside of your control, how can you defeat the depression, pessimism and eventual underachievement... it may really come down to the individuals nuerophsyiology.

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 04:20 AM

I'm not in a tactful mood. That's why this is in the Flamethrower forum. If you're looking for tact, I would first advise steering clear of a set of INTP forums altogether and, if that is not possible, at least staying out of the section dedicated to posting flames.

By the way, there do seem to be some disputes regarding these insights. Maybe you should read all of the posts before making such sweeping statements. Some of them are even interesting!

Shut up fag.

Is that more appropriate?

booyalab

6 May 2005, 04:22 AM

Shut up fag.

Is that more appropriate?

It's not worth getting into an insult match with him. He can only do sarcasm.

Partisan

6 May 2005, 04:27 AM

Shut up fag.

Is that more appropriate?

LOL. Lime, you just admitted defeat.

PWN.

Hypnos

6 May 2005, 04:28 AM

Hustler:

Thank you for calling BS on all the INTP whiners. The world doesn't owe you a damn thing -- go get it. You should feel lucky that you aren't picking through the garbage and waiting in line at the UNICEF station for fresh water.

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 04:28 AM

LOL. Lime, you just admitted defeat.

PWN.

:lol:

I typed it in humor.

Damnit - if I beat him I would have reached level 15!

Vagabond

6 May 2005, 04:30 AM

So that's what ISTJ Central would be like. Okay, curiosity satified - starting to yawn - I'm out of this thread. For now.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:30 AM

It's not worth getting into an insult match with him. He can only do sarcasm.

You're right, it's not worth getting into an insult match with me, because I fucking love getting people riled up to the point that they feel the need to insult me. You were too quick, though, to be much fun, hopping in with what may go down in history as the dumbest insult ever (that's not sarcasm) in your first post on this thread. If you keep it up, I think my computer is going to crash in the face of its inability to process the incalculable retardation it is being faced with in your posts.

Keep up the good work (okay, that WAS sarcasm).

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 04:31 AM

I think you're assuming others are taking this is as seriously as you are.

Isn't that one of the trademark INTP flaws? Mistaking others for yourself?

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:34 AM

Shut up fag.

Is that more appropriate?

Close, but I think, given the level of sophistication you've shown us so far on this site, it should go more like, "Shup FGT!"

Partisan

6 May 2005, 04:35 AM

I think you're assuming others are taking this is as seriously as you are.

Isn't that one of the trademark INTP flaws? Mistaking others for yourself?

That had impact. My life suddenly became easier. happppy

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 04:35 AM

Close, but I think, given the level of sophistication you've shown us so far on this site, it should go more like, "Shup FGT!"

Well indeed, sophistication isn't one of my trademarks.

For example - I haven't showered in 4 days and I can smell my balls everytime I sit down.

cjs55

6 May 2005, 04:35 AM

Thank you for calling BS on all the INTP whiners. The world doesn't owe you a damn thing -- go get it. You should feel lucky that you aren't picking through the garbage and waiting in line at the UNICEF station for fresh water.

The irony should be hilarious to the perceptive.

Partisan

6 May 2005, 04:36 AM

Close, but I think, given the level of sophistication you've shown us so far on this site, it should go more like, "Shup FGT!"

Thankfully given the outsider perspective on this enitre thread, I think "YHBT" would be more suitable.

Hypnos

6 May 2005, 04:42 AM

The irony should be hilarious to the perceptive.
Except, that I agree with Hustler. For irony, see deepsky's post near the top of the thread.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:44 AM

:
Damnit - if I beat him I would have reached level 15!

Your Forum Kung-Fu is no match for my Forum Kung-Fu, you will never defeat me. Please go back to smelling your own rancid balls.

Lee

6 May 2005, 04:44 AM

There is no moral imperitive and morality is relative?

I agree, yet my emotional responses seem tied to some innate version of morality. I act moral regardless, it is very annoying.

kruT

6 May 2005, 04:44 AM

http://www.chocolatecityweb.com/arguing.jpg
Some classics just never die.

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 04:46 AM

Your Forum Kung-Fu is no match for my Forum Kung-Fu, you will never defeat me. Please go back to smelling your own rancid balls.

No need to - i'm sitting down right now.

And shit, just wait till you reach level 16.

*bends all spoons in a 15 mile radius*

Partisan

6 May 2005, 04:47 AM

Some classics just never die.

That picture made me sad.

cjs55

6 May 2005, 04:47 AM

Except, that I agree with Hustler. For irony, see deepsky's post near the top of the thread.

Unless I've misread most of what both of you advocate, Hustler actually disagrees with you, making your statement unintentionally ironic (the best kind). Of course, he could state differently, but I don't think I'd believe him even if he did.

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 04:49 AM

Hustler shows more crotch shots.

Hypnos

6 May 2005, 04:50 AM

Unless I've misread most of what both of you advocate, Hustler actually disagrees with you, making your statement unintentionally ironic (the best kind). Of course, he could state differently, but I don't think I'd believe him even if he did.
No, I think you've misread us.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 04:50 AM

There is no moral imperitive and morality is relative?

I agree, yet my emotional responses seem tied to some innate version of morality. I act moral regardless, it is very annoying.

That's just subjectivity kicking you in the ass. Try not to let it get you down.

moni

6 May 2005, 04:52 AM

That picture made me sad.

is it bad that it made me laugh :( i did feel shameful afterwards...

Lee

6 May 2005, 04:54 AM

is it bad that it made me laugh :rofl: i did not feel shameful afterwards...

cjs55

6 May 2005, 04:56 AM

No, I think you've misread us.

Bah, that's what I get for selective reading of the initial post. In rereading the whole thing, I definitely do see you are both very similar.

As to the quality of the original post: Some insight and some meaningless babble. But still a view of the world that is inbetween an enlightened one and the self-pitying INTP-can't-fit-in-an-SJ-world one.

Hypnos

6 May 2005, 05:00 AM

Bah, that's what I get for selective reading of the initial post. In rereading the whole thing, I definitely do see you are both very similar.
Lazy INTP whiner. ;P

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 05:01 AM

Theory: Hustler is actually Hypnos on another account.

cjs55

6 May 2005, 05:04 AM

Lazy INTP whiner.

I can proudly attest to two of the three!

Lee

6 May 2005, 05:04 AM

In theory playing the social game correctly, playing by the rules, engaging in the altruistic fallacy and working together and cooperating can yield great success in life. The problem is that INTPs are not built that way. We are utalitarian by nature and do not easily fit within the social framework, our dislike of deception and striving for truth lead us to see through the fallacies of life, the rhetoric and political powerplays.

Our best bet is one of manipulating the social game to achieve our own ends before promptly leaving it as soon as possible, it may be sociopathic but in a world populated by SJ temperaments it may be the only way to preserve out sanity.

The best alternative I can see is to hope to find a sub-culture of NTs in which you could thrive more naturally, but such niches are hard to find, the best I can think of exist mainly in academia.

Lee

6 May 2005, 05:05 AM

Theory: Hustler is actually Hypnos on another account.
I was wondering this myself ???

Hustler

6 May 2005, 05:09 AM

Bah, that's what I get for selective reading of the initial post. In rereading the whole thing, I definitely do see you are both very similar.

As one not familiar with the works of Hypnos, I can tell you that my opinion is probably slightly different than his. I consider INTPs to be superior to the majority of the population, simply by virtue of their more-correct worldview. It is a function of non-stop societal beat-downs on the INTP worldview to which we are subjected from our earliest years on into adulthood which perpetuates the misery which many INTPs come to know as their everyday lives. In learning to "buck the system" and playing by our own rules instead of those foisted upon us by the SJ hegemony, we can achieve levels of happiness and success completely unknown to small-minded, concrete, overly-pedagogical thinkers. When INTPs wake up to the realization that the bulk of humanity is but a collection of ants at our feet and that their worldview is a joke, we can then move on to carving our own niches in the world, liberated from the misery born of the ubiquitous, pervasive SJ cog mindset.

Hypnos

6 May 2005, 05:09 AM

Theory: Hustler is actually Hypnos on another account.
If Hustler and I were to enter into a covenant marriage, this would be true in a legal sense. :wub: :D

joft

6 May 2005, 05:12 AM

Keep telling yourself that your decisions will make a difference

just don't actually come to believe others haven't been doing the same thing for thousands of years

that is all I have the motivation to say in dealing with any manifestation of Judging preference

Sir Isaac Lime

6 May 2005, 05:13 AM

Hustler - You have some good insights, which are indeed shared by many of the members of this forum. I think they could actually do some service if they weren't pitched with such a judgemental spin. It's as if you're planning for your words to fall on deaf ears.

"Let me give you some advice" almost immediatly spawns the phrase "Fuck your advice" in the mind of an INTP.

Lee

6 May 2005, 05:13 AM

cjs55

6 May 2005, 05:15 AM

As one not familiar with the works of Hypnos, I can tell you that my opinion is probably slightly different than his. I consider INTPs to be superior to the majority of the population, simply by virtue of their more-correct worldview. It is a function of non-stop societal beat-downs on the INTP worldview to which we are subjected from our earliest years on into adulthood which perpetuates the misery which many INTPs come to know as their everyday lives. In learning to "buck the system" and playing by our own rules instead of those foisted upon us by the SJ hegemony, we can achieve levels of happiness and success completely unknown to concrete, overly-pedagogical thinkers. Brilliant and correct, although the use of the word superior could be disputed. I wonder what exactly we are superior in, and if your very own definition of it may not be still created by an SJ society.

When INTPs wake up to the realization that the bulk of humanity is but a collection of ants at our feet and that their worldview is a joke, we can then move on to carving our own niches in the world, liberated from the misery born of the shackles of ubiquitous, pervasive SJ cog mindset.

Bitterness unveils itself.

Lee

6 May 2005, 05:15 AM

"Let me give you some advice" almost immediatly spawns the phrase "Fuck your advice" in the mind of an INTP.
Maybe for you, but that seems irrational, especially considering that you do not actually know the person. I may react like this to a person who previous experience has told me is not worth listening to but otherwise this attitude seems naive.

cjs55

6 May 2005, 05:17 AM

"Let me give you some advice" almost immediatly spawns the phrase "Fuck your advice" in the mind of an INTP.

There is nothing I appreciate more than advice from someone I respect, thus I love hearing that phrase from some people.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 05:18 AM

Keep telling yourself that your decisions will make a difference

Are you a proponent of predestination or something? I find your perspective illogical, at best.

Hypnos

6 May 2005, 05:18 AM

Brilliant and correct, although the use of the word superior could be disputed. I wonder what exactly we are superior in, and if your very own definition of it may not be still created by an SJ society.
Yes, my one criticism of Hustler would be that he advocates solipsism as a survival strategy. Irrationality eventually bites you in the ass.

Perhaps he didn't word it right, because later he says that "justified" arrogance is the survival strategy, which I would agree with.

cjs55

6 May 2005, 05:24 AM

Arrogance and looking down on others will be a step INTPs take in becoming happy, but shouldn't necessarily be the last.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 05:25 AM

"Let me give you some advice" almost immediatly spawns the phrase "Fuck your advice" in the mind of an INTP.

Fuck my advice? Fuck them! Their loss.

Hustler

6 May 2005, 05:30 AM

Yes, my one criticism of Hustler would be that he advocates solipsism as a survival strategy. Irrationality eventually bites you in the ass.

I would actually say that solipsism is irrelevant to survival.

Architectonic

6 May 2005, 05:44 AM

I read the posts of my fellow INTPs with a combination of disgust and amusement, but mainly the former.

Its mainly the latter for me, but there you go.....

Theory: Hustler is actually Hypnos on another account.

No. Hustler hasn't yet displayed enough intelligence to be confused with Hypnos.

CoHo

6 May 2005, 05:51 AM

Maybe for you, but that seems irrational, especially considering that you do not actually know the person. I may react like this to a person who previous experience has told me is not worth listening to but otherwise this attitude seems naive.

But wouldn't anyone that introduces themselves by saying "let me give you some advice" automatically qualify as someone that isn't worth listening too?

kuranes

6 May 2005, 05:52 AM

If Hustler and I were to enter into a covenant marriage, this would be true in a legal sense. :wub: :D
THEN you could break out the incense candles and the Marvin Gaye! Lay down some plastic tarp and a bottle of Mazola. . . . . . .

Hypnos

6 May 2005, 05:53 AM

I would actually say that solipsism is irrelevant to survival.
In the most philosophical sense, i.e. the Brain in a Vat problem, yes.

In the least philosophical sense, i.e. materialistic agnosticism, no -- you're setting yourself up for disappointment. "Dammit, my magic potion didn't work again!"

Hypnos

6 May 2005, 05:55 AM

THEN you could break out the incense candles and the Marvin Gaye! Lay down some plastic tarp and a bottle of Mazola. . . . . . .

heh heh

Ooh, now let's get down tonight
Baby I'm hot just like an oven
I need some lovin'
And baby, I can't hold it much longer
It's getting stronger and stronger
And when I get that feeling
I want Sexual Healing

kuranes

6 May 2005, 06:19 AM

No more standin'
by the side of the wall
I have got myself together baby
And I'm havin a ball

"Got to give it Up" MG

Serotonin

6 May 2005, 07:03 AM

Valid point. If you consider yourself stupid, please disregard my advice and enjoy your role as a cog.

*Greases teeth and spins happily away*

jjt

6 May 2005, 08:37 AM

Spartan26

6 May 2005, 08:54 AM

Although I haven't read past page one of the follow-up posts, I enjoyed the initial rant Hustler. But you do strike me as someone booking the grand ballroom at the Ramada Inn to hold a seminar on why congress doesn't have the right to make to make you pay takes.

joft

6 May 2005, 10:09 AM

Are you a proponent of predestination or something? I find your perspective illogical, at best. Are you a proponent of free will or something? I find your perspective (and your logic) arbitrary.

The amount of closed-mindedness in this thread is staggering. To begin with, nobody is even mentioning the fact that these "types" don't even really exist, never mind that they're not absolute, all-inclusive, infallible, etc. Then there's the presumption that one arbitrarily determined set of values should be used in determining the (relative) "worth" of all individuals, based on characteristics that you have chosen to be important. Need I make reference to blonde hair and blue eyes? If you stopped being self-absorbed long enough maybe you'd take notice of some of the gaping holes in your idealogy.

For instance, if these "INTPs" are mostly innately superior to these apparently brutish "SJs," why does biological natural selection and/or social darwinistic natural selection greatly favor those dastardly "SJs" in number? Dare I suggest that those of our type are, gasp, not really needed as much as SJs? Imagine, society just might not have much demand for a bunch of chronically lazy, attention impaired, book worm philosophers?! There is a utilitarian use for everything, including the teeming hoardes of mindless drones, and it might just be that their purpose isn't to serve you; but perhaps it's something more along the lines of producing, manufacturing, and distributing all the goods and services that you rely upon to live.

I'm not naive enough to suggest that there is no reason behind choosing to make judgments based upon the characteristics that you've deemed important. No, in fact, those reasons are quite obvious. For example, there's the fact that the characteristics you chose are the ones you have. Convenient, isn't it?

Lee

6 May 2005, 10:16 AM

I'm not naive enough to suggest that there is no reason behind choosing to make judgments based upon the characteristics that you've deemed important. No, in fact, those reasons are quite obvious. For example, there's the fact that the characteristics you chose are the ones you have. Convenient, isn't it?
That would be a naturally selected trait.

Helios

6 May 2005, 10:36 AM

Oh shit! Universal has leaned how to speak English!

Vagabond

6 May 2005, 10:44 AM

Oh shit! Universal has leaned how to speak English! Muahahah. That was a good one. :D

SensEye

6 May 2005, 05:31 PM

OK, my scorecard so far:

1) The lead in troll was quite creative. I really enjoyed it. Just enough credible INTP like thinking to be believable.

2) Some of the responses (like post #91) are also impressive. Sticks with the considered response approach to keep people wondering if the poster is for real. Some of the early humorous responses to MacGuffin are also very effective in this vein.

3) Unfortunatly, the tit-for-tat insult responses like the ones being exchanged with s, lee, booya and the like blow the game.

But if you're in a mind to continue...your initial post implies you have 'carved out a niche' and a profitable one at that. Please expound. I've never know a real entrepenuer type who wasn't happy to tell his story. Let's here all about yours. A good troll must be a credible story teller.

flan2dave

6 May 2005, 07:16 PM

Third alternate user theory: ppc, a bet proposed by garak.

Hustler

7 May 2005, 12:41 AM

Hustler,
Although I agree that we shouldn't feel sorry for ourselves or use INTP as a poor me, I dont think treating the rest of the population as a bunch of cretins is good advice. I have the highest regard for those who treat all people with respect. Our world is full of diversity and no-one should be treated with disdain just because they are different from us. Treating others with disdain I think is an immature way to make yourself feel better.

Calling my point of view immature is not much of an argument for your position. Why is it immature? Why do people deserve to be treated with something other than disdain? If my disdain makes me feel better, and since I, as an INTP, deserve to feel better than most other people because of my superior worldview, it only makes sense that my disdain for others is for the greater good.

meshou

7 May 2005, 12:52 AM

Calling my point of view immature is not much of an argument for your position. Why is it immature? Why do people deserve to be treated with something other than disdain? If my disdain makes me feel better, and since I, as an INTP, deserve to feel better than most other people because of my superior worldview, it only makes sense that my disdain for others is for the greater good.Meh.

I agree with it as a possible productive worldview. It'll float your boat, cream your twinkie, what have you.

It just sounds boring for me. For me, it is unsuccessful.

Last I checked, you are not me. So arguing that your way of doing things will work for anyone but you is stupid, whether they are an INTP or not.

If I am happy with my worldview, there is no reason to change it. There's no benefit to adopting yours aside from stroking your ego. That's not my job.

I suggest looking for those whole other seperate people with distinct personalities that are so in fashion these days. Or failing that, a fleshlight.

Hustler

7 May 2005, 01:12 AM

Are you a proponent of free will or something? I find your perspective (and your logic) arbitrary.

Please provide some sort of validation for your implication that the decisions we make don't matter. In the cosmic sense, I agree, our decisions are insignificant but, in our own lives, our decisions propel us through the days.

The amount of closed-mindedness in this thread is staggering. To begin with, nobody is even mentioning the fact that these "types" don't even really exist, never mind that they're not absolute, all-inclusive, infallible, etc.

I think that's a debate for a different thread. I am working off of the assumption that most of the members of my target audience (the INTPcentral participants) do give at least some credence to the idea of personality typology. I happen to agree that the types are fallible and are not absolute, but I don't see those qualifiers as being very important to the discussion at hand.

Then there's the presumption that one arbitrarily determined set of values should be used in determining the (relative) "worth" of all individuals, based on characteristics that you have chosen to be important. Need I make reference to blonde hair and blue eyes? If you stopped being self-absorbed long enough maybe you'd take notice of some of the gaping holes in your idealogy.

I guess I'm just a personality nazi. The difference between my way and the way of the Aryans is that I'm right and they were wrong.

For instance, if these "INTPs" are mostly innately superior to these apparently brutish "SJs," why does biological natural selection and/or social darwinistic natural selection greatly favor those dastardly "SJs" in number?

By that logic, should we all be jealous of the superior blades of grass or insects which populate the world in numbers far beyond those put up by our lowly human race?

Dare I suggest that those of our type are, gasp, not really needed as much as SJs?

You're right. We require them in quantity so that we may hoist ourselves up opon their backs.

Imagine, society just might not have much demand for a bunch of chronically lazy, attention impaired, book worm philosophers?! There is a utilitarian use for everything, including the teeming hoardes of mindless drones, and it might just be that their purpose isn't to serve you; but perhaps it's something more along the lines of producing, manufacturing, and distributing all the goods and services that you rely upon to live.

You just contradicted yourself. In providing the goods and services on which I rely, they are serving me.

I'm not naive enough to suggest that there is no reason behind choosing to make judgments based upon the characteristics that you've deemed important. No, in fact, those reasons are quite obvious. For example, there's the fact that the characteristics you chose are the ones you have. Convenient, isn't it?

Yes, it is quite a happy coincidence. Lucky us!

Hustler

7 May 2005, 01:16 AM

3) Unfortunatly, the tit-for-tat insult responses like the ones being exchanged with s, lee, booya and the like blow the game.

Yes, I let them drag me down into their world of pettiness. I should have avoided that trap, but I couldn't help it, it's too much fun.

But if you're in a mind to continue...your initial post implies you have 'carved out a niche' and a profitable one at that. Please expound. I've never know a real entrepenuer type who wasn't happy to tell his story. Let's here all about yours. A good troll must be a credible story teller.

My handle says it all. I'm not an entreprenuer so much as a member of society's fringe where the line is blurred between legitimate and illegitimate. PT Barnum was right but, these days, I think the frequency of suckers being born is higher than it was in his time.

coffeezombie

7 May 2005, 01:20 AM

My handle says it all. I'm not an entreprenuer so much as a member of society's fringe where the line is blurred between legitimate and illegitimate. PT Barnum was right but, these days, I think the frequency of suckers being born is higher than it was in his time.

I thought it meant you just like porn a lot.

meshou

7 May 2005, 01:45 AM

By that logic, should we all be jealous of the superior blades of grass or insects which populate the world in numbers far beyond those put up by our lowly human race?You've gotten to the crux of what makes social darwinisim bullshit. Good job. Numbers and ability to reproduce are the only things that make one species more sucessful than another. In terms of Darwin, grass is more sucessful than humanity.

However, If we generalize this, it holds true for personality types as well. What is sucessful survives. What is more sucessful survives in greater numbers, unless we fill a nitche.

Next is an objective measure of what makes someone sucessful. I doubt any two people here could agree on it, and Hustler's ideas hardly seem common on this board.

If they were to be legitimate, they'd have to be agreed on by most of the members of INTP. This isn't about what makes you happy, it's about what makes US happy.

Since your thread is about what makes INTPs, on average, happy, and most of the responses have been dissenting, you are wrong.

Unless you want to argue people don't naturally do what they want until you tell them what they want. Then I will laugh.

When talking about what makes you happy... uuuh.... yey, you started a thread about what makes you happy and how you are the specialest person ever, and we should all be like you? Have a cookie.

Hustler

7 May 2005, 01:45 AM

Last I checked, you are not me. So arguing that your way of doing things will work for anyone but you is stupid, whether they are an INTP or not.

This is a ridiculous premise. Why? Well, here's an example for you to consider. When I make tea, I like to use hot water in which to steep the tea. But that's my way, and I'm sure it wouldn't work for anyone else. Why don't you go steep yours in mercury or something and get back to us on how that works. You and your iconoclastic refusal to go along with "my way" of doing things will surely serve you well.

If I am happy with my worldview, there is no reason to change it. There's no benefit to adopting yours aside from stroking your ego. That's not my job.

If you're happy, then my initial rant wasn't for you, was it? Speaking of egos, you insist on subjecting us to your mindless prattle for apparently no reason other than seeing your name in lights, so to speak. You really have no business even posting in this thread, but, thanks anyway for stroking my ego by upping the message count in MY thread.

Hustler

7 May 2005, 02:00 AM

Next is an objective measure of what makes someone sucessful. I doubt any two people here could agree on it, and Hustler's ideas hardly seem common on this board.

True enough, but quite a few people post on this site whining about their miserable lives. I would suggest a change is in order. I am of a similar personality type to the people here, and, in many ways, I know the pain they feel. Am I them? No, of course not. Can I offer advice which they may find useful? Yes, I can. Can you fuck off and die? I think you can, but I have a sneaking suspicion you won't, much to my chagrin.

If they were to be legitimate, they'd have to be agreed on by most of the members of INTP. This isn't about what makes you happy, it's about what makes US happy.

You just don't get it. They're not happy. Just ask them. They'll tell you themselves, you don't have to believe me.

Since your thread is about what makes INTPs, on average, happy, and most of the responses have been dissenting, you are wrong.

Miserable people are having trouble making themselves happy. When are you going to start to understand that this thread is not directed at YOU and your sunny world, but all of the miserable people who frequent this site and complain about their lives?

When talking about what makes you happy... uuuh.... yey, you started a thread about what makes you happy and how you are the specialest person ever, and we should all be like you? Have a cookie.

There is likely to be a correlation between what makes me happy and what makes a person with a similar personality type happy. Get it? No? Who cares, this thread was never for you anyway.

meshou

7 May 2005, 02:00 AM

This is a ridiculous premise. Why? Well, here's an example for you to consider. When I make tea, I like to use hot water in which to steep the tea. But that's my way, and I'm sure it wouldn't work for anyone else. Why don't you go steep yours in mercury or something and get back to us on how that works. You and your iconoclastic refusal to go along with "my way" of doing things will surely serve you well.Tea and water have concrete molecular properties relevent to steeping.

INTPs simpy share some characteristics in common. They, by and large, can't be said to hold the same value systems nor goals. Those are the characteristics relevant to your essay.

The comparision is not valid.

If you're happy, then my initial rant wasn't for you, was it? Speaking of egos, you insist on subjecting us to your mindless prattle for apparently no reason other than seeing your name in lights, so to speak. You really have no business even posting in this thread, but, thanks anyway for stroking my ego by upping the message count in MY thread.If it's not for me, I can still find fault with its logic.

It is not my fault you did not intend your essay for the people who would actually read it. That's shitty writing on your part.

Replying to a thread you started does not make me special. That I am a robot made of flesh flavored candy makes me special. If you are really made to feel important by a messege count on a board... well... here. Tingles, don't it?

Hustler

7 May 2005, 02:10 AM

INTPs simpy share some characteristics in common. They, by and large, can't be said to hold the same value systems nor goals. Those are the characteristics relevant to your essay.

The comparision is not valid.

If it's not for me, I can still find fault with its logic.

But you're wrong. By your own admission, INTPs share some characteristics in common. Thus it follows that what works for me may well work for others with common characteristics, hence there are many here who would do well to follow my advice if they are currently dissatisfied with their lives now. If it doesn't work, at least they took at shot at improvement instead of continuing to wallow in their misery.

It is not my fault you did not intend your essay for the people who would actually read it. That's shitty writing on your part.

Fair enough, anyone is welcome to read it and even comment on it, it's just that your input is in no way useful for my target audience. As long as we're both clear on that, I'm fine with your participation.

Replying to a thread you started does not make me special. That I am a robot made of flesh flavored candy makes me special. If you are really made to feel important by a messege count on a board... well... here. Tingles, don't it?

It does make you special by your association to me. That plus the flesh-flavored candy make you extra-special. Congratulations.

meshou

7 May 2005, 02:12 AM

True enough, but quite a few people post on this site whining about their miserable lives. I would suggest a change is in order. I am of a similar personality type to the people here, and, in many ways, I know the pain they feel. Am I them? No, of course not. Can I offer advice which they may find useful? Yes, I can. Can you fuck off and die? I think you can, but I have a sneaking suspicion you won't, much to my chagrin.
Ahh, this is interesting! Whatsamatta, baby? I'm having fun! What's with the hostility?

You assume what people do and what they want are seperate. I would suggest the only objective measure of what someone wants is what they do. Yes, even if it makes them unhappy.

If people are unhappy, they want to be. If they are comlaining , they want to complain. Your essay will not change this.

In fact, you can find adbvice similar to yours about anywhere. It's common as muck. If people wanted to follow it, they would.

I don't believe a word people say. Watch what they do. If you tell them what they do makes them unhappy, they will continue their behavior despite this.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Choosing to be unhappy and whine on the intraweb is a legitimate choice, and good luck to them.

It's silly to believe what people say, when what they do is far more useful. This does tie in with ego-- what the ego says it wants is different from what a person actually does want. And its ego on your part to believe them, and furthermore, believe that a solution is necessary period.

Or you can go on being special, your solution is rocket science, and people don't choose what they want. And puppies rain from the sky.

waxwing

7 May 2005, 04:05 AM

Using your INTP status as an excuse for your misery and failure is, at best, a weak cop-out.

Misery and failure do not need an excuse.

1 - Embrace disdain. As one capable of critical thought, you have a right to disregard others and look down on them with an arrogant eye. They are wrong, you are right, and they can be made to pay for their stupidity. All people are not created equal, just be sure you're on the right side of the bell curve.

Thanks, man. You've rewritten the documents of our founding fathers, and I'm getting emotional. I feel so...empowered.

2 - Money can buy happiness. I know we're told time and again in our youth that this is not true but, let me tell you, it is.

Uhm, no. In some utilitarian sense, I see your point. I'll "let you tell me" all day, but have no reason to embrace your idea.

3 - Jobs are for suckers. Learn or devise a way to carve out your own niche where you answer to no one, have no one answering to you and have coworkers only if you want them, not because you have to. As an INTP, you will find nothing as valuable in life as outside-the-box thinking.

I already know that. Who made you king of cliches?

4 - ...but I do suggest you would do well to devise your own conceptions of right and wrong and to understand the way of amorality in optimizing your decision-making.

I do this constantly. I doubt most INTPs follow a traditional moral code.

5 - Life is a game. Develop a strategy and win. When that strategy gets boring (and it will), develop a new strategy and win again. When winning gets boring, read a book or something.

No, really? Again, your paranthetical notes are enlightening.

6 - Never hold yourself to their standards; never let them hold you to their standards. They're idiots. They deserve your wrath. If you are miserable, you are playing their game by their rules. You have the power to bring that to an end. Do you have the courage, or would you rather continue to fall back on your INTPness as an excuse to fail?

Nope. Not the case. Furthermore, I don't use INTPness as an excuse to fail. I did that long before I knew about MBTI. Was it because I was playing the game by their rules? I don't believe so. Far more complicated than that, Hustler. I may feel like a failure on a given day, even for a long period of time. That has nothing to do with making excuses necessarily. I see that in some cases I do make excuses and I am trying to be more proactive in making changes. I hardly think you understand the depth of my failure though, or, more important, my work in progress.

I was waiting for some profound insight, but I guess I'll go to work to get that. My clients with developmental disabilities give me more to ponder than your half-baked, cliched, snippets of advice.

[/QUOTE]

booyalab

7 May 2005, 04:24 AM

You're right, it's not worth getting into an insult match with me, because I fucking love getting people riled up to the point that they feel the need to insult me. You were too quick, though, to be much fun, hopping in with what may go down in history as the dumbest insult ever (that's not sarcasm) in your first post on this thread. If you keep it up, I think my computer is going to crash in the face of its inability to process the incalculable retardation it is being faced with in your posts.

Keep up the good work (okay, that WAS sarcasm).

I think you're assuming others are taking this is as seriously as you are.

that mostly sums up how I would have responded. I wasn't taking this seriously anywhere as evidenced by the fact that, unlike everyone else who's wasting their time with you, I didn't bother addressing any of your actual points. If it was possible to be worse at insults than you accuse me of, you'd take the cake. Though this is the last and only time I've resorted to just plainly stating my opinion on the matter , since I understand the importance of not sounding like a broken record.

Shai Gar

7 May 2005, 04:37 AM

Sir Isaac Lime

7 May 2005, 04:41 AM

YOU, I Like YOU

I thought you were gone?

coffeezombie

7 May 2005, 05:05 AM

I thought you were gone?

He is cutting down on his posts now, he says. Yeah right. Addicts. :rolleyes:

Clara

7 May 2005, 05:51 AM

YOU, I Like YOUWhat ?!? Isn't he your ex-friend, who, you said, betrayed you, with your ex-girlfriend ?!?

( A few (?) people suggested he might be -- I put it as a queston, since there was no response. Of course the larger question is : does this mean the greatly-misunderstood work of art -- elsewhere in this very forum -- might be revived ? Or, maybe it had said all it had to say, anyway, already. )

Hustler

7 May 2005, 10:15 AM

If people are unhappy, they want to be. If they are comlaining , they want to complain. Your essay will not change this.

Nor will your baseless assertions change how incorrect you are. People are unhappy in many cases because they don't know how not to be. There is a reason that entire professions dedicated to giving advice exist. If unhappy people want to be unhappy, why do we have psychiatrists and their ilk? And yes, I realize that psychiatrists are used to solve other problems than unhappiness, but it is one of the things they are supposedly trained to help with.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Choosing to be unhappy and whine on the intraweb is a legitimate choice, and good luck to them.

Technically, any choice is a "legitimate choice." Again, your input is not very useful.

It's silly to believe what people say, when what they do is far more useful.

They are both useful, neither far more so in all circumstances.

Hustler

7 May 2005, 10:21 AM

that mostly sums up how I would have responded. I wasn't taking this seriously anywhere as evidenced by the fact that, unlike everyone else who's wasting their time with you, I didn't bother addressing any of your actual points. If it was possible to be worse at insults than you accuse me of, you'd take the cake. Though this is the last and only time I've resorted to just plainly stating my opinion on the matter , since I understand the importance of not sounding like a broken record.

Way to respond to two people simultaneously in a completely unclear, ineloquent and grammatically-lacking fashion. By the way, your insults just keep getting worse. Do you want us to think you're stupid? If so, it's working. I would rather listen to a broken record than read your feeble attempts at contributing to this forum. Sadly, I have no record player so I guess I'll just keep watching you make a fool of yourself.

Hustler

7 May 2005, 10:37 AM

Misery and failure do not need an excuse.

True, but it doesn't change my position on using one's INTP status as such an excuse. I'd rather people offer no excuse for their misery and failure than use something as bogus as their personality type.

Uhm, no. In some utilitarian sense, I see your point. I'll "let you tell me" all day, but have no reason to embrace your idea.

You have the only reason you need: I am right.

I already know that. Who made you king of cliches?

Good for you! Maybe you're ahead of some people. When I offer a class in advanced topics in clichéd advice, I'll be sure to contact you.

I do this constantly. I doubt most INTPs follow a traditional moral code.

Again, good for you. You're really amazing. If only other people were as far along in their lives as you. But, they're not, and a lot of them are miserable. Incidentally, I was talking to them, not you.

Nope. Not the case. Furthermore, I don't use INTPness as an excuse to fail. I did that long before I knew about MBTI. Was it because I was playing the game by their rules? I don't believe so. Far more complicated than that, Hustler.

Well, I do love a good puzzle. Just for my own curiosity, are you playing by their rules or not? If you are, a scientific analysis of the miasma I'm inferring you find yourself in would require that you first stop doing so before proclaiming it is not a cause of your state.

I may feel like a failure on a given day, even for a long period of time. That has nothing to do with making excuses necessarily. I see that in some cases I do make excuses and I am trying to be more proactive in making changes. I hardly think you understand the depth of my failure though, or, more important, my work in progress.

You would be astounded at the depths to which my understanding can sink.

I was waiting for some profound insight, but I guess I'll go to work to get that. My clients with developmental disabilities give me more to ponder than your half-baked, cliched, snippets of advice.

Good luck with that. Insight can be garnered from many sources, be it a disabled person or a cliché-wielding internet ne'er-do-well. If you cannot find the greatness in my offerings to this forum, so be it, your loss.

waxwing

7 May 2005, 04:54 PM

True, but it doesn't change my position on using one's INTP status as such an excuse. I'd rather people offer no excuse for their misery and failure than use something as bogus as their personality type.

You have the only reason you need: I am right.

Good for you! Maybe you're ahead of some people. When I offer a class in advanced topics in clichéd advice, I'll be sure to contact you.

Again, good for you. You're really amazing. If only other people were as far along in their lives as you. But, they're not, and a lot of them are miserable. Incidentally, I was talking to them, not you.

Well, I do love a good puzzle. Just for my own curiosity, are you playing by their rules or not? If you are, a scientific analysis of the miasma I'm inferring you find yourself in would require that you first stop doing so before proclaiming it is not a cause of your state.

You would be astounded at the depths to which my understanding can sink.

Good luck with that. Insight can be garnered from many sources, be it a disabled person or a cliché-wielding internet ne'er-do-well. If you cannot find the greatness in my offerings to this forum, so be it, your loss. Hustler, I believe you've misinterpreted my remarks.

I'm not really amazing. Sometimes I'm miserable and feel like a failure. I don't believe I'm ahead of most people. I only disagree with you because you do not hold the answers to my misery, fear of failure, or experiencing life contentment. In addition, your tone, whether or not you were playing devil's advocate, suggests that you think you possess the answers to a private and complex problem. No doubt, you may be very capable of deeply understanding some people and ideas, but you do not understand me for obvious reasons, nor do I expect you to. When people presume to understand why I think or feel the way I do, I often react viscerally. I understand that you were not directing your comments towards me, but this is an INTP forum, and for that reason I can read them, process them, and offer a response. Your sarcastic replies such as "Good luck with that," "Good for you," and "You're really amazing" are humorous, but again not what I need to hear. I am willing to listen to advice that rings true to me, advice that could possibly help me make necessary changes. The only point you seemed to understand is that yours strikes me as hackneyed, and of course, this could be simply a matter of personal preference. I abhor hearing what I've heard many times before, especially from someone who assumes an authoritative and belittling tone. Anyway, will you be offering an online course in "advanced topics in cliched advice"? Please let me know as soon as you have worked out the logistics.

Architectonic

7 May 2005, 05:42 PM

This thread just gets funnier and funnier.

Life is a game, you've got to play to win. The problem is most people don't know the rules and therefore haven't found their place. This includes those those who are 'successful' by western societies general definition.

meshou

7 May 2005, 06:00 PM

Nor will your baseless assertions change how incorrect you are. It's not a very snappy response if you concede that your essay is useless. In order for "nor" to make sense, it must imply that the sentance you are responding to is true.

Choosing your audience badly, choosing words for impact without paying atention to what they mean, inappropriate analogies... I can't imagine why you did poorly in college.

Unhappy people will complain anywhere, and psych doctors have found that people will pay them lots of money to listen. That's why there are entire professions devoted to this. People who want to be happy figure it out very quickly, without years of head shrinking.

By your admission, you do poorly in the world. Shitty grades, can't hold a real job. Not the SJ dominated world, the world. You seem to deal with being a failure by re-defining sucess as only personally feeling good and superior, and resenting other people for your own inability to cope with the real world. Whee, projection.

See, psychology isn't there to make people happy. Just more aware. And to give psych docs money. That too.

Hustler

7 May 2005, 11:55 PM

Life is a game, you've got to play to win.

If you're alive, you're playing it. Only the dead are allowed to stand on the sidelines and watch, as much as we'd like to tell ourselves that we can, too.

The problem is most people don't know the rules and therefore haven't found their place. This includes those those who are 'successful' by western societies general definition.

Yes, but many of the ignorant would rather allow themselves to be beaten down than discover the rules and devise a strategy. Surely, success has many forms, but I seriously doubt that misery is one of them.

Hustler

8 May 2005, 12:24 AM

Choosing your audience badly, choosing words for impact without paying atention to what they mean, inappropriate analogies... I can't imagine why you did poorly in college.

I can't help it that you have elected to be in my audience. I can't help it that you don't understand my points, because they're all quite clear. My tea analogy still stands, and I still want you to brew your tea with mercury.

Unhappy people will complain anywhere, and psych doctors have found that people will pay them lots of money to listen. That's why there are entire professions devoted to this. People who want to be happy figure it out very quickly, without years of head shrinking.

This is so untrue it almost hurts to read. First, many unhappy people will not complain anywhere. But, that's getting away from the point. You maintain the psychotherapy field exists because people want to complain, but I say it exists because people want help in improving their lives. When someone comes to you with a problem, is it your natural response to assume they want the problem and therefore that you cannot help? That's patently absurd, but it is certainly what you are implying. Many people who want to be happy do not figure it out very quickly. For some of us, it took a decade. Others never figure it out, and not because they enjoy wallowing in their misery. I really like how you just make statements such as "people who want to be happy figure it out very quickly" with absolutely no basis for doing so.

By your admission, you do poorly in the world. Shitty grades, can't hold a real job. Not the SJ dominated world, the world. You seem to deal with being a failure by re-defining sucess as only personally feeling good and superior, and resenting other people for your own inability to cope with the real world. Whee, projection.

I'm afraid you're incorrect here, but good job attempting to take a personal shot at me. I respect that kind of unadulturated hating on internet forums and, quite frankly, I'd like to see some more of it. By society's fucked-up metrics, I am very successful, and always have been. But, it wasn't until I allowed my own worldview to completely shatter the ideas which had been forced upon me for my entire life that I was able to meet with success in my own eyes. The ability to "hold down a real job" is, for an INTP, tantamount to the ability to be kicked around. Any of us can do it, but who would want to after being made aware of the more rewarding alternatives? It sounds like the one projecting here is you, belittling my own ability to discard the system because you're stuck in some rut and cannot see the way out. Of course, that's no less wild speculation than you just engaged in yourself, but, let's face it, it's fun.

See, psychology isn't there to make people happy. Just more aware. And to give psych docs money. That too.

Oh, right. Depressed people go to the "psych docs" in hopes of being made more aware, not being made happier. How could I miss that one? Oh, and good point with the whole chicken-egg thing. Psych docs were around first, then psychology was developed to line their pockets. That makes a lot of sense.

meshou

8 May 2005, 01:39 AM

For someone advocating moral relitivity and ruthlessness, you sure whine a lot. Are you sure you're not just a pissy NF?

Hustler

8 May 2005, 02:04 AM

For someone advocating moral relitivity and ruthlessness, you sure whine a lot. Are you sure you're not just a pissy NF?

For someone advocating consistency of thought, you sure do make a bunch of bullshit up. That's better than being subjected to more of your "points" though, so I guess I'm fine with it.

nihilist

11 May 2005, 03:44 AM

I'm afraid you're incorrect here, but good job attempting to take a personal shot at me. I respect that kind of unadulturated hating on internet forums and, quite frankly, I'd like to see some more of it. By society's fucked-up metrics, I am very successful, and always have been. But, it wasn't until I allowed my own worldview to completely shatter the ideas which had been forced upon me for my entire life that I was able to meet with success in my own eyes. The ability to "hold down a real job" is, for an INTP, tantamount to the ability to be kicked around. Any of us can do it, but who would want to after being made aware of the more rewarding alternatives? It sounds like the one projecting here is you, belittling my own ability to discard the system because you're stuck in some rut and cannot see the way out. Of course, that's no less wild speculation than you just engaged in yourself, but, let's face it, it's fun.

Your rants are abundant with boisterous vehemence bordering on narcissism. Furthemore, you stick to your ideals like a fanatic towards blaming society for your own problems . I would conjecture that you are an INFJ with a darker side, much like Hitler. (probable exxageration)

Dman

11 May 2005, 04:35 AM

I like this thread, it's amusing (which is why everyone is here anyways, for my amusement)

I would like to hear more on the details of what a successful "nonconformist" life is though, from Hustler's pov...or at the very least what his definition (or own experience) is. It's easier said than done, I'm tempted to believe.

kuranes

11 May 2005, 06:28 AM

Yes, as Isaac said, many of his points are things people would consider givens, and the devil is in the details. In other words, people are more inclined to want to hear HOW people are "getting over on the system" rather than just being told they should seek to DO this. Of course, due to each forum member having different talents and risk tolerance, an ultra-specific "paint-by-numbers" step by step guide to being a maverick entrepreneur is obviously not available, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be ultra-vague either.

Examples might include ( A. ) typical mistakes an inexperienced drug dealer, cracker, or other member of the demimonde might make, beyond the obvious. ( B. ) What venture capitalists/angels are REALLY looking for ( C. ) Tips on how to write grants that get start-ups approved for government funds. We've all seen the fucking Matthew Lesko type-ads, and know there's SOME truth to people getting these federal funds, but most of the time people get nowhere with that stuff. Why?

This forum could be a way for entrepreneurs to hook up with one another based on "you've got the potatoes, and I've got the onions" etc.

Many fledgling companies fail, despite good intentions. Why? Again, going beyond obvious answers like "People didn't try hard enough" or "People thought 'a good idea=a market'" What are some of the devious ways that a new business partner can fool you, when one is unwittingly entering the territory of deception and BAD intentions?

Maybe Hustler or others know the answers to some of these questions, or can raise other specific issues, where questions are ASKED as well as answered. Nothing wrong with that. I'd hope for some ANSWERS from some people too, though. His point was taken about people who wear their heart on their sleeve continuously, but I don't see that many people here actually doing that. A few here and there. Not worth making a big deal out of it.

Hustler

11 May 2005, 01:41 PM

Your rants are abundant with boisterous vehemence bordering on narcissism. Furthemore, you stick to your ideals like a fanatic towards blaming society for your own problems . I would conjecture that you are an INFJ with a darker side, much like Hitler. (probable exxageration)

An incorrect conjecture. Every test I've ever taken has landed me squarely in the P camp. I'm disorganized, I detest highlighters and note-taking and such, and I have no plan beyond a sketch of the possibilities the future will bring. If I have problems, I assure you they are my own. I recognize the role of society in contributing to the downtrodden mindset of many INTPs, but I also recognize that you don't have to play by their rules in this life; there are many holes in their systems to be exploited for our own gain. From this I derive my ability to see each new "problem" as an opportunity in disguise. Narcissism, I can accept. If you were me, you would be narcissistic too.

Hustler

11 May 2005, 01:46 PM

I would like to hear more on the details of what a successful "nonconformist" life is though, from Hustler's pov...or at the very least what his definition (or own experience) is. It's easier said than done, I'm tempted to believe.

What isn't easier said than done? Virtually nothing. There are so many great nonconformist lifestyles, I can't even begin to list them. But, I shouldn't have to. The INTPs to whom I'm speaking in this thread should be capable of letting their imagination take them places where reality can follow, without needing any concrete examples. Did I mention I got a lot of great ideas about seeing through preconceived notions and societal expectations in books I read about confidence artists? That's a good place to start -- the documentation available on others who have come before us and carved out niches for themselves.

ohnoaninfp

11 May 2005, 08:22 PM

Wow I don't post for about a week and the shit hits the fan. :O

nihilist

11 May 2005, 10:06 PM

An incorrect conjecture. Every test I've ever taken has landed me squarely in the P camp. I'm disorganized, I detest highlighters and note-taking and such, and I have no plan beyond a sketch of the possibilities the future will bring. If I have problems, I assure you they are my own. I recognize the role of society in contributing to the downtrodden mindset of many INTPs, but I also recognize that you don't have to play by their rules in this life; there are many holes in their systems to be exploited for our own gain. From this I derive my ability to see each new "problem" as an opportunity in disguise. Narcissism, I can accept. If you were me, you would be narcissistic too.

The logic behind pinning you down with a J quality is that you are too preoccupied with external albeit iconoclastic recognition. You are not only
obssesed with carving out such a niche but dogmatically asserting others do so as well.

Hustler

11 May 2005, 10:31 PM

The logic behind pinning you down with a J quality is that you are too preoccupied with external albeit iconoclastic recognition. You are not only obssesed with carving out such a niche but dogmatically asserting others do so as well.

If anything, my so-called dogmatic assertions that others would do well to carve out their own niches is that tiny bit of me that isn't pure T coming out trying to help the woe-begotten INTPs who frequent this board. Self-loathing and self-pity will get them nowhere, being proactive in trying to change the elements of their lives which cause them grief will. My wishing embetterment upon them has nothing to do with P or J.

mgb

11 May 2005, 10:59 PM

waxwing

11 May 2005, 11:21 PM

If anything, my so-called dogmatic assertions that others would do well to carve out their own niches is that tiny bit of me that isn't pure T coming out trying to help the woe-begotten INTPs who frequent this board. Self-loathing and self-pity will get them nowhere, being proactive in trying to change the elements of their lives which cause them grief will. My wishing embetterment upon them has nothing to do with P or J.

Woe-begotten INTP,

Where are you? Please come out and talk. I just wanna help you out of hiding....Don't loathe yourself. Don't pity yourself. You're going nowhere. Behold the secrets to erasing your woe! I hereby wish embetterment upon you.

-Your humble master

*(whisper)
Is our humble master suffering from a delusion? I don't see many woe-begotten intps here....

mgb

11 May 2005, 11:24 PM

Woe-begotten INTP,

Where are you? Please come out and talk. I just wanna help you out of hiding....Don't loathe yourself. Don't pity yourself. You're going nowhere. Behold the secrets to erasing your woe! I hereby wish embetterment upon you.

-Your humble master

*(whisper)
Is our humble master suffering from a delusion? I don't see many woe-begotten intps here....

*puts up hand*

I'm woe-begotten.

But the last thing I need is that "pull-up-your-socks" bullshit. I think that's what ESTJ Central is for.

waxwing

11 May 2005, 11:28 PM

*puts up hand*

I'm woe-begotten.

But the last thing I need is that "pull-up-your-socks" bullshit. I think that's what ESTJ Central is for.
Certainly I am too, quite often, but I am repulsed when anyone tells me to "buck up." If there's an ESTJ Central, maybe he could provide the link. I'm sure he's a forum leader....and they're all bowing to him.

Hypnos

11 May 2005, 11:29 PM

*puts up hand*

I'm woe-begotten.

But the last thing I need is that "pull-up-your-socks" bullshit. I think that's what ESTJ Central is for.
Do you prefer "I'm hungry/sad/lonely" bullshit? I sure as hell don't.

Is this reflected in the annoying length and utter lack of content in your sig?

Hustler

11 May 2005, 11:34 PM

Why are you even here?

Because it's fun. How about you?

Hustler

11 May 2005, 11:36 PM

Is our humble master suffering from a delusion? I don't see many woe-begotten intps here....

I see obliviousness is one of your most finely honed qualities. At any given time, there are probably no less than half a dozen active threads on INTPcentral started by people questioning their own self-worth or complaining about their misery.

Hustler

11 May 2005, 11:40 PM

*puts up hand*

I'm woe-begotten.

At least you're willing to admit it. That's a good start.

But the last thing I need is that "pull-up-your-socks" bullshit. I think that's what ESTJ Central is for.

I believe you've missed the point, or merely read into my message what you wish to see, so that you can better avoid confronting the issue. I'd be much more inclined to advise you to steal someone else's socks then force said victim to pull them up for you than I would to tell you to pull up your socks. Or maybe just get rid of the idea of wearing socks altogether, if having them down is causing you so much grief and pulling them up doesn't seem like something you want to do.

Or just continue to wallow in your woe-begotten misery.

waxwing

11 May 2005, 11:41 PM

Hustler....in response to your indication of my obliviousness....

Yeah, HEllo. Thanks for clearing that up. Actually, I'm fairly certain that people questioning self-worth may or may not indicate complaining, or, as you mentioned before, self-pity and self-loathing. Isn't it possible that when people start threads of that nature, they are trying to work through an issue? Trying to think out loud? Seeking advice, understanding, or a listening ear from other INTPs?

Hustler

11 May 2005, 11:58 PM

Certainly I am too, quite often, but I am repulsed when anyone tells me to "buck up."

Why is that? Why are you, quite often, woe-begotten, and why are you repulsed when anyone tells you to "buck up?" Perhaps your burdens are so heavy as to be lightyears beyond our understanding and thus we insult you when we deign to offer words of encouragement. Or perhaps you never asked for anyone's advice or opinions on the matter, so what business do we possibly have give it to you? Or maybe you have some other, far more compelling reason which never even dawned on me. If so, just disregard me, that's fine, but I take these seemingly endless threads of self-loathing to be cries for help from the confused INTPs here, and I'm actually going to try to answer them.

I must confess my efforts seem largely wasted, as most of the criers want to keep crying instead of making proactive changes, and most of the peanut gallery (you) are too self-absorbed with their useless interjections about themselves and how whatever I'm talking about doesn't apply to them to realize that maybe there are other people here to whom my words do apply. Wasted or not, I don't care, because as long as there is a finite, non-zero probability that I can get through to just one person or, failing that, get on the nerves of just about everyone else then my time here at INTPcentral is as valid a form of procrastination as anything else.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 12:00 AM

Seeking advice, understanding, or a listening ear from other INTPs?

That's exactly what I'm giving them. I am overflowing with advice and understanding, and I'm ready to listen to your problems, my INTP sister!

CosmicDust

12 May 2005, 12:11 AM

That's exactly what I'm giving them. I am overflowing with advice and understanding, and I'm ready to listen to your problems, my INTP sister!
You're overflowing with advice...but I'm not so sure about the understanding part. It could be that you really do understand things accurately - that people who express angst about their lives are just unnecessarily keeping themselves down. The problem seems to be that you're not displaying mirroring. For people to feel "understood," they often need something that will make them think (accurately or inaccurately) that the other person understands some of the complexities involved - that the other can actually have some grasp on why the one expressing angst might be suffering, and perhaps even that there's more going on than mere suffering, such as a desire to reach a common wavelength.

If you're not good at making a person feel understood, he or she is likely to reject your advice - if he or she was even looking for advice. Sometimes people are only looking for that feeling of being understood, or looking for that more than anything else.

waxwing

12 May 2005, 12:12 AM

Why is that? Why are you, quite often, woe-begotten, and why are you repulsed when anyone tells you to "buck up?"

Why am I woe-begotten? Life is sad. I'd have to be superhuman to not get sad. Even superheroes and gods get sad, I think. I don't like people telling me to "buck up" unless I've let them in. Even then, I'm skeptical. Stubborn. I haven't let you in. Perhaps its a defense mechanism.

I must confess my efforts seem largely wasted, as most of the criers want to keep crying instead of making proactive changes, and most of the peanut gallery (you) are too self-absorbed with their useless interjections about themselves and how whatever I'm talking about doesn't apply to them to realize that maybe there are other people here to whom my words do apply. Wasted or not, I don't care, because as long as there is a finite, non-zero probability that I can get through to just one person or, failing that, get on the nerves of just about everyone else then my time here at INTPcentral is as valid a form of procrastination as anything else.

Well, good luck with your endeavor. I didn't know INTPCentral was a "lost child" waiting to be taken in by such a mentor as yourself, but I'm willing to stand corrected. I admire people wanting to make a difference in people's lives, but somehow I think your approach is ineffective. If others disagree, then may you be an encouragement to them. Anyway, what am I saying....? I wouldn't know anything. I'm in the peanut gallery. I'm self-absorbed. And my interjections are useless.

I think I'll go hum that Charlie Brown theme song....always liked that one. http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/whistling.gif

Hustler

12 May 2005, 01:17 AM

If you're not good at making a person feel understood, he or she is likely to reject your advice - if he or she was even looking for advice. Sometimes people are only looking for that feeling of being understood, or looking for that more than anything else.

I agree with pretty much everything in your post. Mirroring, empathy, etc., that's what a lot of people want/need in order to feel that they're being understood. However, my method is in itself a call for the elimination of such weaknesses within the selves of the gentle readers here at INTPcentral. I'm not here to make people feel comfortable and understood in the empathetic sense, despite my supreme depth of understanding, I'm here to make them uncomfortable with themselves to the point that they just can't take it anymore. If it starts with being uncomfortable with me, so be it, they can turn their depression into anger and direct it squarely at me. I enjoy basking in it and it gives them a chance to feel something new and different. Direct anger is a refreshing and healthy change for someone stuck in the quagmire of general disaffection.

Lee

12 May 2005, 01:24 AM

What is wrong with me? nothing. What is wrong with the rest of the species? almost everything.

CosmicDust

12 May 2005, 01:30 AM

I agree with pretty much everything in your post. Mirroring, empathy, etc., that's what a lot of people want/need in order to feel that they're being understood. However, my method is in itself a call for the elimination of such weaknesses within the selves of the gentle readers here at INTPcentral. I'm not here to make people feel comfortable and understood in the empathetic sense, despite my supreme depth of understanding, I'm here to make them uncomfortable with themselves to the point that they just can't take it anymore. If it starts with being uncomfortable with me, so be it, they can turn their depression into anger and direct it squarely at me. I enjoy basking in it and it gives them a chance to feel something new and different. Direct anger is a refreshing and healthy change for someone stuck in the quagmire of general disaffection.
Ah, a rationalization. My perspective is that most people will not be ready until they're ready, and there have to be a lot of things all in the right place in order for any particular trigger to set off a concerted effort to change for the better. And talking down to people is not the only trigger that can be effective.

If venting anger is your chief purpose, fine, carry on. I happen to think it's unrealistic to expect your anger to save the world though. If it relieves your tension, it's good for you, and that's all that matters to you. (Even if people feel it's important not to anger others, IMO it's usually because doing so makes them feel bad due to the way their conscience developed.)

meshou

12 May 2005, 01:31 AM

I agree with pretty much everything in your post. Mirroring, empathy, etc., that's what a lot of people want/need in order to feel that they're being understood. However, my method is in itself a call for the elimination of such weaknesses within the selves of the gentle readers here at INTPcentral. I'm not here to make people feel comfortable and understood in the empathetic sense, despite my supreme depth of understanding, I'm here to make them uncomfortable with themselves to the point that they just can't take it anymore. If it starts with being uncomfortable with me, so be it, they can turn their depression into anger and direct it squarely at me. I enjoy basking in it and it gives them a chance to feel something new and different. Direct anger is a refreshing and healthy change for someone stuck in the quagmire of general disaffection.
Anger is one of the least productive emotions. Anger puts you in the role of the victim, always. It puts you into the role of someone powerless. And not in a productive way. Anger is impotence. Effective people are not often angry.

On the other hand, people being angry enough at being condecended to enough to ignore you is productive. No one with a sense of self respect is going to listen to a random stranger tell them that they're living their lives all wrong, and that they ought to listen to him because he's just that awesome, and compared to him, they're all ineffective little dweebs, and if they don't like what he has to say because they don't read good, or are stupid, or *insert something wrong with them here*

They're going to either ignore him or tell him he's full of shit, because that's the sign of an effective, assertive person.

And since they are right to do so, they are also right to ignore the entirety of what you have to say.

waxwing

12 May 2005, 01:35 AM

If it starts with being uncomfortable with me, so be it, they can turn their depression into anger and direct it squarely at me. I enjoy basking in it and it gives them a chance to feel something new and different. Direct anger is a refreshing and healthy change for someone stuck in the quagmire of general disaffection.
Somehow I think that if depression were so easy to cure, we'd have known about you before. Not so easily done. If people are having sadness or frustration disproportionate to any circumstance in their lives, then becoming angry at you will probably not help them out of a depression. If we're talking about "general disaffection," or a case of the blues, I can understand the approach of a "wake up call." Even so, don't you think that people need to sometimes be woken up gently, without someone reducing their apathy and/or sadness to a weakness or a problem with an easy solution? I realize that you are not presenting a simple solution, but you do seem to be offering advice that is either belittling or full of sweeping generalizations.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 01:35 AM

Why am I woe-begotten? Life is sad. I'd have to be superhuman to not get sad. Even superheroes and gods get sad, I think. I don't like people telling me to "buck up" unless I've let them in. Even then, I'm skeptical. Stubborn. I haven't let you in. Perhaps its a defense mechanism.

When you have decided the frequency of your woe-begottenness is too high and you wish to enact a move to the sunny side of life, as an INTP of superior perspective to the general populace, you have within yourself the means of transcendence. And no, not in a spiritual sense. That said, I will not trespass within the confines of your inner being, but I shall wait until such time that I have been invited in. You are wise to keep others at a distance and remain skeptical of their motives, especially rotten-to-the-core people like me, but sometimes the ideas of me and my ilk are useful and so, risks should be taken. For now, buck up or don't buck up, whatever floats your boat.

Well, good luck with your endeavor.

Thanks, but luck's got nothing to do with it.

I didn't know INTPCentral was a "lost child" waiting to be taken in by such a mentor as yourself, but I'm willing to stand corrected. I admire people wanting to make a difference in people's lives, but somehow I think your approach is ineffective. If others disagree, then may you be an encouragement to them. Anyway, what am I saying....? I wouldn't know anything. I'm in the peanut gallery. I'm self-absorbed. And my interjections are useless.

There are many lost children here, though I would not say the whole site fits that bill. Even you are among them, locked away in your shell. I do not wish to mentor these people, only show them the truth of their inherent superiority, thanks to their INTP status, and allow this fact to catapult them to greatness. My approach can be effective. It's like winning the lottery...most people never do but, those who do are, in theory, much better off for it. Unlike the lottery, however, my wisdom is free. My words will fall mainly on contrarian or deaf ears, but perhaps there are a small few who will take the liberation the message promises as a means of motivation and seek something better for themselves.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 01:41 AM

Ah, a rationalization.

Did you expect something else? Welcome to INTPcentral.

My perspective is that most people will not be ready until they're ready, and there have to be a lot of things all in the right place in order for any particular trigger to set off a concerted effort to change for the better. And talking down to people is not the only trigger that can be effective.

I get it. You're right. There are many triggers, I just happen to like the one I'm talking about.

If venting anger is your chief purpose, fine, carry on. I happen to think it's unrealistic to expect your anger to save the world though. If it relieves your tension, it's good for you, and that's all that matters to you. (Even if people feel it's important not to anger others, IMO it's usually because doing so makes them feel bad due to the way their conscience developed.)

I'm not here to vent. I'm not the angry one. I'm giving advice to depressed people and, if it makes them mad, so be it, at least they're mad at a worthy target and not depressed about themselves for all the wrong reasons.

Lee

12 May 2005, 01:45 AM

Anger is one of the least productive emotions. Anger puts you in the role of the victim, always. It puts you into the role of someone powerless. And not in a productive way. Anger is impotence. Effective people are not often angry.Anger can be a very productive emotion, many effective and successful people are angry, thier anger fuels them... without it they are impotent. I am not saying you are wrong, I am simply saying that your point is extremely selective and by no means is true for everyone.

On the other hand, people being angry enough at being condecended to enough to ignore you is productive. No one with a sense of self respect is going to listen to a random stranger tell them that they're living their lives all wrong, and that they ought to listen to him because he's just that awesome, and compared to him, they're all ineffective little dweebs, and if they don't like what he has to say because they don't read good, or are stupid, or *insert something wrong with them here*I don't know about everyone else but the personal comments mean nothing to me, I just ignore them. I am then left to decide whether or not I agree with the advice being given (there is no harm in listening to advice) and whether the source of the advie is worth listening to, it should be noted that just because someone is rude, arrogant and condecending doea not make them wrong.

They're going to either ignore him or tell him he's full of shit, because that's the sign of an effective, assertive person.

And since they are right to do so, they are also right to ignore the entirety of what you have to say.Agreed, people are free to do as they choose.

note: not that I agree with Hustler, although he does make some good points, although not much I don't think most have us have thought of before.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 01:54 AM

Anger is one of the least productive emotions. Anger puts you in the role of the victim, always. It puts you into the role of someone powerless. And not in a productive way. Anger is impotence. Effective people are not often angry.

Let me just say that you, meshou, are my favorite person on INTPcentral. Alright, that said, you're viewing anger as an end and not a means. Externally-directed anger is a means of transcendence from from depression and self-loathing. It is not the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; I would imagine happiness is. To say it makes you powerless is very limiting. Anger can motivate you to great deeds, while self-loathing will only paralyze you. Vengeance is a fine example of such a motivator, and when revenge is effectively enacted, you are usually left in the position of power. And I would say vengeance is generally brought on by anger, though it can stem from other things.

On the other hand, people being angry enough at being condecended to enough to ignore you is productive. No one with a sense of self respect is going to listen to a random stranger tell them that they're living their lives all wrong, and that they ought to listen to him because he's just that awesome, and compared to him, they're all ineffective little dweebs, and if they don't like what he has to say because they don't read good, or are stupid, or *insert something wrong with them here*

I'm not random. I'm an INTP participating in a virtual community just the same as they are. The people here are, like me, great. Their depression is, for the most part, unwarranted and they would do well to realize this. Life can be hard for an INTP, alone in the world, subject to the inane ways of the masses. That is, until the INTP realizes that the systems they have put in place are there for our exploitation, and that these people ultimately can be made to serve our own ends.

They're going to either ignore him or tell him he's full of shit, because that's the sign of an effective, assertive person.

Excellent, I love it when people say I'm full of shit. Even though they're usually wrong in thinking so, at least they're thinking about something other than what worthless losers they are.

And since they are right to do so, they are also right to ignore the entirety of what you have to say.

Very true. But you, as an INTPcentral reader, have the distinct priviledge of NOT ignoring me and, instead, engaging me in discussion and learning from me. I see you've elected to do that, and I congratulate you for your intelligent decision.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 02:07 AM

Somehow I think that if depression were so easy to cure, we'd have known about you before. Not so easily done. If people are having sadness or frustration disproportionate to any circumstance in their lives, then becoming angry at you will probably not help them out of a depression. If we're talking about "general disaffection," or a case of the blues, I can understand the approach of a "wake up call." Even so, don't you think that people need to sometimes be woken up gently, without someone reducing their apathy and/or sadness to a weakness or a problem with an easy solution? I realize that you are not presenting a simple solution, but you do seem to be offering advice that is either belittling or full of sweeping generalizations.

I'm aware that there are countless chemical reactions in the brain which can force emotions to go haywire and that certain ratios of said chemicals must be kept in line or depressive emotions can set in. I can offer no advice on how to combat such neurochemical processes except, perhaps, to visit a medical professional familiar with such things. I can only suggest that being an INTP should NOT be a cause for misery but, instead, should be a cause for celebration.

If my advice seems belitting, I suppose that is good, as it connotes an arrogant dismissal of me on the part of my readers when confronted with what appears to be a total jackass online. If my advice is full of sweeping generalizations, it is because specific advice is only good for specific people. I get as specific as saying things like "jobs are for suckers" or "morality is relative" because I really believe that most people are afraid to think that way, thanks to decades of societal brainwashing, and if they can just latch onto those simple concepts, they can move on to figuring out how to best implement them for themselves. Even the people who jump in with statements like "Duh, I knew all that already" must be harboring some small doubt about the statements, as they go on meekly accepting their shit jobs and spoonfed morality as burdens they must simply bear, day after bleak day. I can't sit here and tell you what your morality should be or what you should do to earn money, because I don't have a clue about you beyond your INTP status and the inherent superiority it gives you.

nihilist

12 May 2005, 02:58 AM

That is, until the INTP realizes that the systems they have put in place are there for our exploitation, and that these people ultimately can be made to serve our own ends.

You remind me of a delusional (and suicidal) friend in school. Anyway, suppose somebody goes along with your plan. Would you care to explain why it is imperative that INTPs or anyone else needs to exploit systems and people for self-aggrandizing pursuits? More importantly, would you elaborate on how to do it by constructing a valid blueprint to exploit the systems in the world.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 03:26 AM

You remind me of a delusional (and suicidal) friend in school.

You need to select better friends. Why associate with delusional and suicidal people? That's rhetorical, by the way, I don't care if you have some great reason for hanging around people like that.

Anyway, suppose somebody goes along with your plan. Would you care to explain why it is imperative that INTPs or anyone else needs to exploit systems and people for self-aggrandizing pursuits? More importantly, would you elaborate on how to do it by constructing a valid blueprint to exploit the systems in the world.

I do not care to explain myself. People who are wallowing in their misery can take my advice and extricate themselves, or they can continue to be miserable. I guess it isn't imperative, but why be miserable when there are superior alternatives? As for constructing a valid blueprint, what are you, an S? You need a concrete example? Go find an xSxx forum, where you can get all the object lessons and concrete examples you want. I've already given people a hint in suggesting books about people who have been system-exploiters in the past, specifically books involving confidence artists. Of course, there are many ways to beat the system, I just found those books to be interesting. Others may disagree.

Sir Isaac Lime

12 May 2005, 03:53 AM

<slightly OT>

I'd like to find a way to become completly self-sufficient (monetary wise) on the internet. And I don't mean through selling goods on Ebay.

Take for example the guy who started www.sublimedirectory.com. He's just a single guy that made a single site, and he's fucking rich. All he had to do was find an idea to make getting porn a single iota simpler - and boom he's a free man. The effort he took in making the site was so petty - not even equal to working a week at McDonalds.

I'd like to do it that way - buy my freedom so speak. And no home, no wife, no kids; to me they're like traps that set you up and doom you to a life of servitude. Money+No attachments = Freedom.

kuranes

12 May 2005, 03:56 AM

I have no doubts about the statements I made.

It could be that what you know about "hustling" would be helpful to me. Then again maybe not. You don't have to know all the circumstances of my private situation to explain what you're getting at better than you have.

If what you do, for example, is to extract money from banks using complicated cracker software tricks, I would be the first to admit that this forum wouldn't be the best place to supply me details, which I most likely wouldn't understand anyway.

I would guess that it's not "herd morality" that's keeping people at jobs they don't think of as paradise, but rather lack of specialized knowledge that they can leverage the way you imply. Some are probably quite happy with their status quo as well. I speak only for myself. You're perfectly free to keep such knowledge that YOU are in possession of ( if any ) to yourself. It could be that the more people who know how to do what you do, the less effective it is. So it would make sense that you don't spill it. If you're one of those people who feels little sympathy for your fellow man ( or fellow INTP ) than that's OK too. Plenty of that to go around. If what you do involves screwing lots of "little guys" I wouldn't want to do it anyway. Keep it, and call me "square" if that gets you off. Part of "superman" vs. "herd mentality" might involve you feeling it's OK to betray or trick ME in some way, too, after I bought into your line and tried to become part of some scheme that you were going to "consider" allowing me and a select few people into. Then again maybe you're sincere in your own way. How would anyone know WHAT to think of you, based on your self-admitted arrogant approach which you knew UPFRONT would piss people off, and your vague answers. At one point you say you're trying to be helpful. At other points you fall back on the dialogue of a B movie villain. "My motivations Mr. Bond? Amusement and thread post count. In an hour the sands in your hourglass will have dissipated, and the cage you are suspended in will open into the alligator infested waters. I leave you then, Mr. Bond, to consider your fate, while I depart for an important dinner engagement with Doctor Evil and my entourage. (then whisper) But James, I want you to know I really DO like you, and I'm TRYING to help you get into my game, know what 'm' sayin'? Hint Hint" Say WHAT?

Fish or cut bait.

meshou

12 May 2005, 04:18 AM

Very true. But you, as an INTPcentral reader, have the distinct priviledge of NOT ignoring me and, instead, engaging me in discussion and learning from me. I see you've elected to do that, and I congratulate you for your intelligent decision.Hold up, back off.

I learn from interaction with intillegent people.

You aren't my teacher. I do not learn from you. Don't presume a role you haven't earned.

I've never felt icky from a philosophical debate before. Congrats, I need a shower.

kuranes

12 May 2005, 05:11 AM

nihilist

12 May 2005, 05:12 AM

I do not care to explain myself. People who are wallowing in their misery can take my advice and extricate themselves, or they can continue to be miserable. I guess it isn't imperative, but why be miserable when there are superior alternatives? As for constructing a valid blueprint, what are you, an S? You need a concrete example? Go find an xSxx forum, where you can get all the object lessons and concrete examples you want. I've already given people a hint in suggesting books about people who have been system-exploiters in the past, specifically books involving confidence artists. Of course, there are many ways to beat the system, I just found those books to be interesting. Others may disagree.

I didn't ask for an example; I asked for a blueprinrt or a model of a system, which is theoretically what an architect (INTP) constructs.
Hustler, you are like the all singing, all dancing fool who is not a confidence artist himself, yet terribly suffers from the delusion of being one. Furthermore, I may be taking intuitive leaps here, but something tells me that you don't have the expertise of being a cracker, confidence artist, or con man.
Perhaps, you may be an S type where you process data factually such as reading books involving confidence artists. An actor (mostly SPs) can fit perfectly into the role of the scientist, philosopher, etc if he takes in information through script lines and reference books, but he cannot truly become what he acts unless he immerses himself absolutely in the subject.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 09:34 AM

It could be that what you know about "hustling" would be helpful to me. Then again maybe not. You don't have to know all the circumstances of my private situation to explain what you're getting at better than you have.

I'm sure what I do isn't going to appeal to most people but, that's not the point. There are plenty of niches to go around, and plenty of INTPs who would do well to fill them.

If what you do, for example, is to extract money from banks using complicated cracker software tricks, I would be the first to admit that this forum wouldn't be the best place to supply me details, which I most likely wouldn't understand anyway.

Right. I'm glad you're willing to accept this as an example of a possible explanation of my tight-lippedness on supplying specifics. I'm not some sort of elite bank-hax0r, but if I were, I certainly wouldn't tell anyone. Sounds like an interesting niche, though.

I would guess that it's not "herd morality" that's keeping people at jobs they don't think of as paradise, but rather lack of specialized knowledge that they can leverage the way you imply. Some are probably quite happy with their status quo as well. I speak only for myself.

You have a status quo lifestyle? You are happy with it? Is that true? Either way, I disagree with your assessment. Many people who are frustrated with their own INTPness and how it presents difficulties in integrating themselves smoothly into society ARE kept down by this so-called "herd morality," and they would do well to rise above it and acknowledge their INTP superiority.

Then again maybe you're sincere in your own way. How would anyone know WHAT to think of you, based on your self-admitted arrogant approach which you knew UPFRONT would piss people off, and your vague answers. At one point you say you're trying to be helpful. At other points you fall back on the dialogue of a B movie villain. "My motivations Mr. Bond? Amusement and thread post count. In an hour the sands in your hourglass will have dissipated, and the cage you are suspended in will open into the alligator infested waters. I leave you then, Mr. Bond, to consider your fate, while I depart for an important dinner engagement with Doctor Evil and my entourage. (then whisper) But James, I want you to know I really DO like you, and I'm TRYING to help you get into my game, know what 'm' sayin'? Hint Hint" Say WHAT?

ROFL.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 09:41 AM

Hold up, back off.

I learn from interaction with intillegent people.

Isn't that what I said?

You aren't my teacher. I do not learn from you. Don't presume a role you haven't earned.

If it were anyone but you, I'd have to argue this point (in a condescending, unfriendly manner, to be sure). But, since (a) you really are my favorite person on INTPcentral and (b) you're probably the smartest participant at this site, I'm going to just concede.

I've never felt icky from a philosophical debate before. Congrats, I need a shower.

I'm glad I could prod you in the direction of better personal hygiene. Around here, I'll take what I can get when it comes to helping others.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 09:42 AM

You should hook up with Rogue_Roman when he gets back, unless you ARE Rogue_Roman going under a new name, and taking a more aggressive approach.

What was that Clara brought up about you being Shai Gar's buddy that betrayed him with his girlfriend?

If you don't watch your P's and Q's we're going to sic the ghost of Zedo on you.

I'm not here to make friends with a bunch of punkass internet INTPs or steal Shai Gar's girlfriends. I'm sure his taste in women is questionable, at best, anyway.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 09:55 AM

I didn't ask for an example; I asked for a blueprinrt or a model of a system, which is theoretically what an architect (INTP) constructs.

And I'm advising you to pick up a book and read. Try it!

Hustler, you are like the all singing, all dancing fool who is not a confidence artist himself, yet terribly suffers from the delusion of being one. Furthermore, I may be taking intuitive leaps here, but something tells me that you don't have the expertise of being a cracker, confidence artist, or con man.

That's not an intuitive leap, that's a baseless presumption. There is really no way for you to know the breadth of my knowledge. If it helps you accept your own mediocrity and inability to walk the path your daydreams point you toward to call me delusional, that's just sad. Your closed-mindedness has failed you.

Perhaps, you may be an S type where you process data factually such as reading books involving confidence artists. An actor (mostly SPs) can fit perfectly into the role of the scientist, philosopher, etc if he takes in information through script lines and reference books, but he cannot truly become what he acts unless he immerses himself absolutely in the subject.

With each post, your ideas get more and more far-fetched. Now I'm an actor? Whatever. The bottom line is that books are a rich source of ideas. That's all I'm saying when I recommend book reading as a means to finding a niche which fits the INTP better than a traditional job. Find your own ideas, don't just ask me what works for me.

nobarcode

12 May 2005, 10:37 AM

Not unlike SIL, I've already been through the degrees of Illumination. Where do I sign up for this program? <_<

[Once again Helios, :D ]

crofbe

12 May 2005, 10:41 AM

Hold up, back off.

I learn from interaction with intillegent people.

You aren't my teacher. I do not learn from you. Don't presume a role you haven't earned.

I've never felt icky from a philosophical debate before. Congrats, I need a shower.

Here's a debate then, how do you know who is intelligent?

Hustler

12 May 2005, 10:45 AM

Not unlike SIL, I've already been through the degrees of Illumination. Where do I sign up for this program? <_<

You sign up anywhere you want.

meshou

12 May 2005, 10:53 AM

How do you know who is intelligent?How do you know who is funny? Is it a judgement against someone if they're not? Is there anything wrong with not being interested in being friends with someone who has no sense of humor?

Now insert "intelligent" in for "funny," and you have about the right answers.

crofbe

12 May 2005, 11:33 AM

Ckyzxr

12 May 2005, 11:40 AM

Why are you even here?

Because it's fun. How about you?

"The chameleon behaviour can be particularly strong when discussing something. The INTP may even argue something that he doesn't really believe himself. >Sometimes it is for the intellectual stimulation that comes with the challenge of arguing from a variety of standpoints.< "

Hmmm.....

crofbe

12 May 2005, 11:43 AM

kuranes

12 May 2005, 04:59 PM

I'm not here to make friends with a bunch of punkass internet INTPs or steal Shai Gar's girlfriends. I'm sure his taste in women is questionable, at best, anyway.

Rogue_Roman is not a "punk ass" INTP. He is an international entrepreneur with an attitude somewhat similar to yours. I could make it explicit, but I promised him that I would keep the details of his biz secret, and I keep my word. If you've got any tips that you want to share, you can PM me and trust the same confidence. If not, it's been a real slice chatting with you on this thread. Just telling us that we can figure out special niches is not contributing much, after such a bombastic opening, IMHO.

On Shai, I was just curious about what Clara had mentioned.

Clara

12 May 2005, 05:29 PM

meshou

12 May 2005, 07:07 PM

That's what I'm asking you. What is it that you want to learn, how is it that you want to be humored, and why is it necessary to judge these from your personal standpoint? Your use of the word seems more of a sign of your own intelligence than that of whoever you're interacting with. If so, how useful can this be at all, aside from filling emotions to debate?
1) I usually learn unexpected things 2) I don't want to be humored 3) it is necissary to judge personally because it determines who I spend my time with. That's as me-based as it gets.

My use of it at the time was in a reaction against being "taught," and directly related to who I spend my time with. It was not part of a debate.

kuranes

12 May 2005, 07:24 PM

Kuranes, are you trying to be annoying, on purpose ? Because, I don't particularly care, at this point, if this is a new username for Shai's friend, or not. Besides which, if people find it insightful in some way, to be discussing things with this person as a foil for their thoughts, then fine. Or maybe you'd all be replying to him anyway -- I don't know.

What I was implying, besides that, was that Shai may have invented that story, and that he may have done so at least in part to try to kill a thread he was annoyed with... which, since that thread had probably already faded into the twilight of no-longer-inspiring, is moot on that count. ( We all have different gifts -- useless to gnash our teeth, at ones we don't have... or to wish that others will exercise theirs in ways that will entertain us. Or something. )
Not trying to annoy you Clara, certainly. Surprised you would think it a possibility on the basis of me making a simple inquiry. I thought maybe I'd missed a thread involved with the "introduction" of Hustler. Was I goading Hustler a bit? If he was in fact, that person, I would have expected him to be a bit ruffled, though he'd never show it. So sure, I was teasing poor little Hustler a bit. It's funny ( to me ) to think that anyone might consider me a possible troll on evidence of this. I know the word itself wasn't used, but it seemed implied. I wasn't intentionally trying to drag you into an argument, though, if that's what upset you. I can see how it would appear that I HAD been. Sorry, Clara.

K

Clara

12 May 2005, 08:29 PM

Kuranes, pax. I have no argument with you, & I don't think any of those things. Thanks for the chuckle caused by your post. :) ( A side note : is anyone else visited by a sense that, since one's post has been quoted in whole, that it would just be tidier, in a way, to go back and delete that post ??? I know that at least two people find it annoying, and so I stopped... I'm just wondering, as I let go of that urge yet again, if others think this way. )

nihilist

12 May 2005, 09:47 PM

And I'm advising you to pick up a book and read. Try it!

That's not an intuitive leap, that's a baseless presumption. There is really no way for you to know the breadth of my knowledge. If it helps you accept your own mediocrity and inability to walk the path your daydreams point you toward to call me delusional, that's just sad. Your closed-mindedness has failed you.

I came up with such an assesment after reading your first post in this thread. For example...

*Where X is dominance, power, ultimate laziness, nunchuck skills, computer hacking skills, drawing skills, wealth, infamy or whatever the fuck else interests you.

What do you mean by computer hacking skills? Hackers are expert programmers who 'hack' through code to understand how any system works. Thus, hacking is a systematic process of problem solving. The people who break in and exploit computer systems for their own profit are crackers. Even in that subset of crackers, the people who don't write their own programs but use other hacking tools are script kiddies. We have a plethora of annoying teenagers who are merely script kiddies.

The reason why I elucidated upon the semantics is that you are stuck in this glamorized and platitudinous perspective about hackers. While my domain of knowledge doesn't deeply cover the many other areas like confidence artists, I can infer that you don't analyze whatever you read. Reading is the most effective way to acquire knowledge, but one must be critical and question the point of view of the author. Writers much like everyone else in the arts and entertainment are selling a message. Why else would people read their material? (rhetorical)

Hustler

12 May 2005, 10:21 PM

I thought maybe I'd missed a thread involved with the "introduction" of Hustler. Was I goading Hustler a bit? If he was in fact, that person, I would have expected him to be a bit ruffled, though he'd never show it.

Wait, who am I supposed to be now? There is one constant for me among internet message forums, no matter the participants or subject matter: I always get accused of being someone else. It appears INTPcentral is no exception.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 10:30 PM

What do you mean by computer hacking skills? Hackers are expert programmers who 'hack' through code to understand how any system works. Thus, hacking is a systematic process of problem solving. The people who break in and exploit computer systems for their own profit are crackers. Even in that subset of crackers, the people who don't write their own programs but use other hacking tools are script kiddies. We have a plethora of annoying teenagers who are merely script kiddies.

Thanks for breaking that classification system down for us. I guess I've only seen that done about five million times so far by internet know-it-alls since the internet's inception. Anyway, to answer your question, it was a reference to a movie line, an attempt at humor (wasted on you) and an effort to point out that what works for one person may not work for the next, as the list of possible goals is very broad.

The reason why I elucidated upon the semantics is that you are stuck in this glamorized and platitudinous perspective about hackers.

I think what's more likely is that you are stuck in the perspective of being a total crackhead. What the hell are you talking about? Why do you think I care at all about hackers?

While my domain of knowledge doesn't deeply cover the many other areas like confidence artists, I can infer that you don't analyze whatever you read.

You're the one who can't analyze for shit. Baseless presumption != careful analysis. Get it? Maybe the trouble is that you can't distinguish between inference and baseless presumption.

Reading is the most effective way to acquire knowledge [snip]

Is it? Is it THE most effective way to acquire knowledge? That's an interesting assertion which is surely contestable.

Sir Isaac Lime

12 May 2005, 10:32 PM

Reading is one way, certainly not the most "effective". I think the effectiveness of a model is relative to the data thats being modeled - among other things.

kuranes

12 May 2005, 10:34 PM

No "accusation"! ( Such thin tender skin! ) Just an inquiry. Which you denied. Comprende?

Hustler

12 May 2005, 10:34 PM

1) I usually learn unexpected things 2) I don't want to be humored 3) it is necissary to judge personally because it determines who I spend my time with. That's as me-based as it gets.

My use of it at the time was in a reaction against being "taught," and directly related to who I spend my time with. It was not part of a debate.

I know you reject me outright as a teacher, but will you please accept my lessons on how to spell 'necessary?' Please! It would mean so much to me.

Hustler

12 May 2005, 10:37 PM

No "accusation"! ( Such thin tender skin! ) Just an inquiry. Which you denied. Comprende?

No, I'm just confused. I've been accused of being at least three different people now (I think), and I'm just trying to figure out who I am supposed to be today. Ultimately, it doesn't matter though, because I'm sure by tomorrow I'll be the "new identity" of some other infamous INTP poster from days gone by.

kuranes

12 May 2005, 10:41 PM

Hustler

12 May 2005, 11:21 PM

I think you're just pretending to be confused. You may not know much about the names of the old posters, but you can certainly understand what I said in my last post. ( See, I give you at least a LITTLE credit, Hustler! You old trickster, you. ) P.S. Who is the third person?

There are now 21 pages in this thread. I really can't be bothered to go back through all of them. I think I was first accused of being Hypnos, perhaps only jokingly, but then came some more suggestions as to my "real" identity.

Hypnos

12 May 2005, 11:24 PM

There are now 21 pages in this thread. I really can't be bothered to go back through all of them. I think I was first accused of being Hypnos, perhaps only jokingly, but then came some more suggestions as to my "real" identity.
Good times, good times.

kuranes

12 May 2005, 11:29 PM

Yes, people DID ask about Hypnos at first! You're right.

Well, well, we finally sorted it all out, though, didn't we? You're just plain old lil Hustler. Although you are an admitted "confidence" man, you wouldn't even THINK of changing your screen name. All the effort that went into creating the integrity of the basic Hustler character would be wasted then. So we can assume you're no longer confused or worried, can't we?

nihilist

13 May 2005, 12:42 AM

Why do you think I care at all about hackers?

I can't help but notice how you alluded to computer hacking in the first post denoting it as a skill which can be used for exploitation. Secondly, that particular reference of computer hacking skill implies cracking. Seriously, man, communicate with the proper semantics!

THE most effective way to acquire knowledge? That's an interesting assertion which is surely contestable.
Yes, I did leap into a strong assertion there. It certainly is debatable. That being said, I am availing myself out of this thread as it is leading nowhere.

Nighthawk

13 May 2005, 01:29 AM

http://www.chocolatecityweb.com/arguing.jpg
Some classics just never die.... and some are even better with a remake ;)

Hustler

13 May 2005, 08:01 AM

Although you are an admitted "confidence" man, you wouldn't even THINK of changing your screen name.

I am? I don't recall ever admitting to being a confidence man and, in fact, that's not something I'd ever admit to being.

Hustler

13 May 2005, 08:03 AM

That being said, I am availing myself out of this thread as it is leading nowhere.

Good, you won't be missed.

Nighthawk

13 May 2005, 06:41 PM

Hustler, what are some niches that have worked well for you?

Hustler

13 May 2005, 11:32 PM

Hustler, what are some niches that have worked well for you?

I'm not really up for discussing the details of my own niche. Information is money, and the more I spread around, the less I leave for myself to capitalize on. But, what works for me is largely irrelevant anyway. You should ask yourself what interests you and what you would like to get out of a niche entrepreneurial endeavor or profession? I realize that sounds like a total cop-out to your question, but I really can't give you the specific information you want.

meshou

13 May 2005, 11:58 PM

I'm not really up for discussing the details of my own niche. Information is money, and the more I spread around, the less I leave for myself to capitalize on. But, what works for me is largely irrelevant anyway. You should ask yourself what interests you and what you would like to get out of a niche entrepreneurial endeavor or profession? I realize that sounds like a total cop-out to your question, but I really can't give you the specific information you want.You assume that success is more information than it is ability to exploit it.

I would say that, from the truly astronomically sucessful people I know, they could draw up a detailed blueprint of what they do and how they do it, and barely increase their competition.

The fellow I'm thinking of, has, in fact, done so. He's got a book coming out soon, self help sort of thing.

But the things he does, while simple, are not the sort of thing a regular person could do. They require imagination, willingness to work, paitence, persistance, agressiveness. They require the creativeness and charisma and personality.

For instance, I can tell you about something that happended recently. A step son of his came up with a neat idea for a medical device (what it is is not important). He heard about it, looked into, found that it was not used, and was the sort of thing that was like "Yeah, why don't they do that?"

He is not into that industry. He'd need to come up with a few million to get it done.

So, he did. How? Well, in the process of doing this, he had to get into that industry. He had to meet with those people. He charmed them very well, but will get no discount for maufacturing.

However, he got the funding from people he previously worked with, who knew him as a charasmatic person who got stuff done. The funding for the next project may come from the connections he makes in this one.

So, now you're ready to go raise a few million dollars right? No. Because you do not have that charisma, or those connections, or that reputation of competence. If you had a step-son, he would not know you as a fellow who would make this invention a reality, so you may not even have acces to those sorts of ideas.

The information of how you do it doesn't make it reproducable. The qualities it takes to do that sort of thing are the only things relevant to getting it done, and getting it done more than once.

So, if you are doing something truly remarkable and sucessful, chances are sharing details of how you do it would not create any competition. In fact, creating more competant people is beneficial to you, because competant people will have use for your skills, and vice versa.

If all your success is dependant on information, I would call it luck. So, by all means, share what you do. If you really are successful, it can't harm you, and may actually help you. If it's an unreproducable fluke anyone with internet access can do, then yes, keep it to yourself.

Hustler

14 May 2005, 12:58 AM

You assume that success is more information than it is ability to exploit it.

I would say that, from the truly astronomically sucessful people I know, they could draw up a detailed blueprint of what they do and how they do it, and barely increase their competition.

Your entire argument hinges on this idea and, in general, you're right. I'm sure Warren Buffet could share all of his industry secrets with me, yet I'd still be wholly unable to implement them. In my case, however, this simply does not apply. I don't know really know much about you at all, but I'm certain you could do what I do. The same can be said for just about anyone here. That's just it, it doesn't have to be that hard to carve out a niche, it just takes a certain perspective on life and a willingness to try.

As for it all being luck, that's an assumption you can make if you wish. Perhaps I was lucky to have been born and raised an INTP, and this perspective on the world, and my embracing of it, allowed me to see things in a different light and thus exploit subtle cracks in the system for my own gain.

meshou

14 May 2005, 03:13 AM

Your entire argument hinges on this idea and, in general, you're right. I'm sure Warren Buffet could share all of his industry secrets with me, yet I'd still be wholly unable to implement them. In my case, however, this simply does not apply. I don't know really know much about you at all, but I'm certain you could do what I do. The same can be said for just about anyone here. That's just it, it doesn't have to be that hard to carve out a niche, it just takes a certain perspective on life and a willingness to try.

As for it all being luck, that's an assumption you can make if you wish. Perhaps I was lucky to have been born and raised an INTP, and this perspective on the world, and my embracing of it, allowed me to see things in a different light and thus exploit subtle cracks in the system for my own gain.Yes, but Joe (the fellow I am talking about) also insists that anyone can do what he does, and freely shares the information how.

What separates him, a talented successful man, from everyone else, is that he does do it, not the knowledge of how.

If you are a talented successful man as you claim, then what separates you will not be the knowledge. Any idiot can get lucky and have an idea. Any idiot can see a loophole to exploit. A successful man can share the secrets to his success and not create competition.

So, you seem to be advocating your type of success is the "any idiot" sort. That's fine. But it's not really a valuable sort to me. I don't want to be any idiot.

Geoff

14 May 2005, 09:49 AM

I dunno... I have high standards but I wouldnt mind being "any idiot" if it was a simple method for finding out the winning lottery numbers, before every other idiot caught on...

Not everything in life is valuable just because it is unique or due to hard work!

-Geoff

Hustler

14 May 2005, 10:44 AM

If you are a talented successful man as you claim, then what separates you will not be the knowledge. Any idiot can get lucky and have an idea. Any idiot can see a loophole to exploit. A successful man can share the secrets to his success and not create competition.

I'm sorry, but that's wrong. It takes more than being any idiot to find and exploit a loophole. In fact, just looking for loopholes is beyond most people. Any INTP can (and should), but not just any idiot can.

So, you seem to be advocating your type of success is the "any idiot" sort. That's fine. But it's not really a valuable sort to me. I don't want to be any idiot.

Lucky for you, you're not. You're an INTP, and perhaps even exceptional among our elite subspecies. When you're looking for loopholes of your own to exploit, please be sure to find something which no idiots will be able to accomplish.

AcidGoethe

15 May 2005, 02:39 PM

hustler suspiciously sounds like an entj

Architectonic

15 May 2005, 06:02 PM

hustler suspiciously sounds like an entj

No, an ENTJ would be a little more proficient at debate. ;)

Zero Angel

15 May 2005, 07:45 PM

I dunno, he kinda hit me as an ESTP. He did make some useful points though, especially about looking at others with disdain. We ARE right much of the time. One thing I noticed about sensors, is that when they try to make intutive judgement they are usually WRONG. Then they wonder why there is so much conflict and misunderstandings in their petty circles. A problem is that when we 'play by their game' we fall for their stupid intutive judgements, ideas of success, etc. and let it bring us down. We are on the right half of the curve, yet make excuses, let ourselves sit among mediocrity because we failed before. Big fucking deal, its not the end of the world, we do far worse feeling sorry for ourselves instead of refusing to let others waste our time, or keeping our thoughts to ourselves. As far as amorality goes, everyone else does it. You can be on your own, refusing to play their game, but you do whether you want to or not. Playing it nice, you finish last, this is where amorality comes into play, those who are already playing amorally are at the top, they do not deserve your mercy or your fairness. Try to be honorable and you get burned by someone who's willing to fight dirty. Fight dirty and you get where you need to help those who fight fair.

Anyways, i'm really tired, so i'll leave you to your arguement. Carry on gentlemen.

Hustler

15 May 2005, 10:50 PM

hustler suspiciously sounds like an entj

Please explain this slanderous accusation.

meshou

15 May 2005, 10:56 PM

Please explain this slanderous accusation.I know I am often vocal about needing concrete explanations for opinions on my neutral qualities I find personally insulting.

Hustler

15 May 2005, 11:16 PM

I know I am often vocal about needing concrete explanations for opinions on my neutral qualities I find personally insulting.

No, no, it is just the accusation is so out of order, I can't even imagine how someone would begin to intuit such a thing. Me an ENTJ? I'm floored.

meshou

15 May 2005, 11:30 PM

No, no, it is just the accusation is so out of order, I can't even imagine how someone would begin to intuit such a thing. Me an ENTJ? I'm floored.You killed Jesus. Also, you eat puppies.

Uuuh, wait. Uh, you are vocal online, and very success oriented? And non-in-person typing sucks, and ENTJs and INTPs can be indistinguishable online?

Hustler

16 May 2005, 02:36 AM

Uuuh, wait. Uh, you are vocal online, and very success oriented? And non-in-person typing sucks, and ENTJs and INTPs can be indistinguishable online?

No U.

meshou

16 May 2005, 03:23 AM

No U.I KEEL U, HOR.

euterpenc

16 May 2005, 01:55 PM

Biff_Loman

16 May 2005, 05:34 PM

Let's cut to the chase and stop beating around the bush in an abstract manner.

Hustler: do you have any specific examples of how a person might find their niche? I guess I could move out into the woods and eat berries. Alternately, I could flip burgers my whole life and take a Stoic approach to happiness - after all, I can always be king of myself (and could spit into others' food).

Wait, both of these preclude having much money. So, do you suggest that we become con artists and criminals? I'm not passing moral judgment (at the moment); I'm just curious if that's what you recommend as our "niche."

kuranes

16 May 2005, 05:48 PM

Biff, Hustler reminded me that he didn't actually SAY that he himself tricked people out of money. I couldn't figure if he was joking under the cover of CYA or what. My guess is that he will never get specific, even in a PM. His reply will always be "that's not the point", when, to guys like you and me, it's EXACTLY the point. It doesn't take that much creativity to simply tell others to be creative. "Still it's better than no suggestion at all" seems to be his implied rejoinder.

Biff_Loman

16 May 2005, 09:34 PM

Maybe he'll tell me if I offer to pay him.

<rimshot>

Hustler

17 May 2005, 12:46 AM

Maybe he'll tell me if I offer to pay him.

It will take more than just an offer of payment.

Hustler

17 May 2005, 12:52 AM

Let's cut to the chase and stop beating around the bush in an abstract manner.

Sorry, no. This is a forum for abstract types. Go to an S forum if you want concrete answers.

Hustler: do you have any specific examples of how a person might find their niche? I guess I could move out into the woods and eat berries. Alternately, I could flip burgers my whole life and take a Stoic approach to happiness - after all, I can always be king of myself (and could spit into others' food).

Wait, both of these preclude having much money. So, do you suggest that we become con artists and criminals? I'm not passing moral judgment (at the moment); I'm just curious if that's what you recommend as our "niche."

Yes, I have specific examples. No, I'm not going to share them with you. The first step to all of this stuff is to realize that you may have to put in a little upfront effort to get where you want. If I tell you what to do and you do it, that's really no better than you settling for a job which sucks. We've been over all of this before, and it remains just as irrelevant now as it was about 15 pages of posts ago.

SheepDog

17 May 2005, 03:05 AM

This reminds me of a friend that hosts internet porn sites. I have no idea if he makes any money, but I think he makes a little. Not much work on his part, to be sure. I couldn't imagine doing it, but it makes me wonder why I shouldn't just jump on the bandwagon.

Biff_Loman

17 May 2005, 04:00 AM

Hustler's contribution in this thread appears even more empty than I initially suspected.

SensEye

17 May 2005, 04:34 AM

We've been over all of this before, and it remains just as irrelevant now as it was about 15 pages of posts ago.It's not irrelevant. Your stories of success are just that, stories. Until you can demonstrate competence your opinions carry little weight. You can continue to be evasive if you wish, and most people here will continue to percieve you has another anonymous internet blowhard.

Hustler

17 May 2005, 10:20 AM

It's not irrelevant. Your stories of success are just that, stories. Until you can demonstrate competence your opinions carry little weight. You can continue to be evasive if you wish, and most people here will continue to percieve you has another anonymous internet blowhard.

Because people, such as yourself, would rather believe I am just another "anonymous internet blowhard" than admit that I am right, that their unwillingness to better themselves and instead cry about their pathetic lives is inexcusible. They deserve pity, not empathy. This thread is not about me or the secret niche where I've found fortune and an escape from the soul-crushing SJ world, it is about them and their need to awaken their own potential and make use of the lucky hand they've been dealt as INTPs.

But it is easier to call me a bullshitter and remain locked in your own world of misery than to accept the illumination I grant.

AcidGoethe

17 May 2005, 02:17 PM

Please explain this slanderous accusation.

It takes one to recognize another one.

MacGuffin

17 May 2005, 05:01 PM

It's not irrelevant. Your stories of success are just that, stories. Until you can demonstrate competence your opinions carry little weight. You can continue to be evasive if you wish, and most people here will continue to percieve you has another anonymous internet blowhard.Because people, such as yourself, would rather believe I am just another "anonymous internet blowhard" than admit that I am right, that their unwillingness to better themselves and instead cry about their pathetic lives is inexcusible. They deserve pity, not empathy. This thread is not about me or the secret niche where I've found fortune and an escape from the soul-crushing SJ world, it is about them and their need to awaken their own potential and make use of the lucky hand they've been dealt as INTPs.

But it is easier to call me a bullshitter and remain locked in your own world of misery than to accept the illumination I grant.Wow, it is not often that someone's response to refute an accusation actually ends up proving it.