Should Someone Repair the Sphinx's Nose ?

[kuranes]

Should someone repair the nose of the Egyptian Sphinx ?

This was a question raised as an example of reversing a trend that's been prevalent only for a hundred years or so, they said, on a radio show.

Before that, beauty and harmonious relationships were more valued and so many things were done ( including repairs ) to enhance or preserve that, went the argument.

The argument continued - "Right now its much more fashionable to create ugly things in Art. Beauty is considered somewhat 'corny'. "

Of course, in the case of some things, people will say that its not about ugliness, but about preserving history in its original form.

Some go so far as to say that earlier ( now part of history themselves ) repairs should be removed also.

Discuss.

[Ferrus]

No.

The damage of the nose is as much a part of the historical legacy of the artefact which far outweighs what minimal aesthetic positive would come from repairing it.

[kuranes]

What about the second part of the OP - do you think the Art world focuses on Ugliness more now than it does ( traditional ) Beauty ? ( We could try to say that "certain kinds of ugliness have their own 'beauty'", of course, in our best Hannibal Lector voices....

Some might say that traditional beauty is like a dish of food with too much sugar, or a novel with too much "F". Are we updating beauty, then, versus being fashionably ugly, assuming this argument has some weight ?

[Feller]

What about painting Roman and Greek statues? It was how they were originally intended (and apparently we can forensically analyze what color paint was originally there), and unlike the sphinx it isn't the result of a significant historical event; I'd say it's more along the lines of restoring old tapes.

http://static.colourlovers.com/uploads/2008/06/nic-1.jpghttp://100swallows.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/alex-sarcophag-colored.jpghttp://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos3/persianhorseman.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Eiwce13X738/SHnOroQHfwI/AAAAAAAADN4/u9ZAI4lzM5A/s400/BrinkmannStatues.jpghttp://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/images/2007/12/16/32greek3300.jpg

Also, I agree with Ferrus that restoring the Sphinx would be destroying more history than the appeal it would add.

[kuranes]

I see what you mean about the distinction between repairing the Sphinx's nose and painting the statues. Of course, I picked an extreme example such as the sphinx repair as a way of bolding the thread. It might get lost in Hustler's fluff otherwise.:devil:

[Melody]

was the sphynx originally bright white like the pyramids were?

i think it would be badass if they restored a pyramid fully :D

[kuranes]

was the sphynx originally bright white like the pyramids were?
I don't know. Lovecraftian sources say that the original Sphinx's face wasn't even the one that the nose fell off of. It was far older and....distinctly non human. Modified 10,000 years ago or so...:D

[starjots]

No.

The damage of the nose is as much a part of the historical legacy of the artefact which far outweighs what minimal aesthetic positive would come from repairing it.

But isn't the historical legacy we are talking about here basically an act of vandalism? If someone spray painted gang graffiti all over the sphinx, would future generations be forced to look at forever? Rhetorical questions demand rhetorical answers! The sphinx needs a nose job.

[kuranes]

But isn't the historical legacy we are talking about here basically an act of vandalism? If someone spray painted gang graffiti all over the sphinx, would future generations be forced to look at forever? Rhetorical questions demand rhetorical answers! The sphinx needs a nose job.:theclap:

[Feller]

But isn't the historical legacy we are talking about here basically an act of vandalism? If someone spray painted gang graffiti all over the sphinx, would future generations be forced to look at forever? Rhetorical questions demand rhetorical answers! The sphinx needs a nose job.

Unless the Graffiti were someone like Banksy, it wouldn't be of historical significance and it the aesthetic negative would be greater than the removal of its nose, I would say.

[last_caress]

But isn't the historical legacy we are talking about here basically an act of vandalism? If someone spray painted gang graffiti all over the sphinx, would future generations be forced to look at forever? Rhetorical questions demand rhetorical answers! The sphinx needs a nose job.

who nose?

[Ferrus]

But isn't the historical legacy we are talking about here basically an act of vandalism?
But a historic act of vandalism in terms of the history of the early exploration of Eygptian archaeology, which is almost as fascinating a story in itself (see Belzoni and Petrie for example).

[digesthisickness]

But a historic act of vandalism in terms of the history of the early exploration of Eygptian archaeology, which is almost as fascinating a story in itself (see Belzoni and Petrie for example).

i agree. it would negate two historical events.

[Ptah]

Who cares?

[kuranes]

But a historic act of vandalism in terms of the history of the early exploration of Eygptian archaeology, which is almost as fascinating a story in itself (see Belzoni and Petrie for example).
NoseHair splitting ! Nose Hair splitting, I say !

[kuranes]

Who cares?You should be in the meta Sphinx thread and vote "fluff" if you feel that way.

[Ptah]

You should be in the meta Sphinx thread and vote "fluff" if you feel that way.

I don't think it's fluff. Just a dud.

[Karl]

How about it's none of our business since we aren't Egyptian and being American doesn't mean we get to go around telling everyone what to do with their statues? If they want the nose like that it's fine with me.

[kuranes]

I don't think it's fluff. Just a dud.

There's an option to vote "neutral" or ( if you feel that this is still not expressing "dud" properly ) there is a "protest" option.

[Zephyrus055]

I think we should be rational people and only invest in projects where the return on the investment is worthwhile. Since the only return from repairing the Sphinx's nose is to satisfy the sentiments of a few people, I say fuck that idea.

[Ptah]

There's an option to vote "neutral" or ( if you feel that this is still not expressing "dud" properly ) there is a "protest" option.

Yeah. I saw those. Wasn't quite worthy of either of them, either.

Oh well.

[dubbeltop]

Should Someone Repair the Sphinx's Nose ?

Such vanity.

[OrionzRevenge]

No.

I think the vast majority of historians and conservationist would answer like-wise for reasons already illuminated by others.

There are numerous considerations here, but a decisive factor that would be applicable to any such restorations is: Would said effort require non-native material?

Maybe a better question of this nature to ponder would be something like the Restoration of the Sistine Chapel frescoes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_of_the_Sistine_Chapel_frescoes

Here is an example of a restoration that is much more likely to be implemented. Wherein the removal of non-native material is deemed a valid effort by many.

However, the results revealed gaudy and garish colors under all that candle soot that some now find revolting.

From a historic POV the revelation has merit, as it was obviously intended to 'brighten' a dimly lit chamber designed to reflect heavenly brilliance.

Yet, the religious pious were quite fond of the former somberness.

[starjots]

From an arts or aesthetic point of view I'd prefer to see things as they were when they were built and as the creator(s) made them.

Re: Sistine Chapel - I think this makes the point very well that people lose touch with the past and create their own reality of what the art was trying to say that may never have been there. They may be calling dirt, decay and vandalism inspired genius when it is in fact dirt, decay and vandalism. "Some now find revolting" - doesn't that say it all? Who the fuck cares what some may find - what matters is what the artist originally made.

Re: Vanity - Is it vanity when your toilet breaks and you fix it? Is it vanity when your car tires blow out to buy new tires? Without maintenance everything eventually turns into a pile of crap. Maintenance means you value something. Non-maintenance means you don't value it.

[kuranes]

How about it's none of our business since we aren't Egyptian and being American doesn't mean we get to go around telling everyone what to do with their statues? If they want the nose like that it's fine with me.it doesn't say "American" in the OP title. It says "somebody" or "someone" IIRC. So it could be the Egyptians themselves doing the repair. The question still stands.


They may be calling dirt, decay and vandalism inspired genius when it is in fact dirt, decay and vandalism. "Some now find revolting" - doesn't that say it all? Who the fuck cares what some may find - what matters is what the artist originally made.
:highfive:

[pesquisa]

From an arts or aesthetic point of view I'd prefer to see things as they were when they were built and as the creator(s) made them

Me too. The prerestoration appearance can be preserved in photos.

In related news, a marble Roman statue of Mars has had its snapped-off penis rebuilt and reattached on the specific orders of the prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8144012/New-penis-for-statue-in-Silvio-Berlusconis-Rome-office.html):

The new penis has been fitted with a magnet so that it can be easily removed if, in future, a more comprehensive restoration is carried out.

Experts studied statues of male nudes from the same period in order to determine what the dimensions of the prosthetic penis should be, according to Italy's La Repubblica.

The newspaper said the project was carried out in haste, without conforming to strict restoration rules, and would probably have to be undone when the statues return to the Baths of Diocletian museum in Rome. ...

Penises were often hacked off ancient Roman statues, either as souvenirs or out of prudishness.




http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01765/statue_1765715b.jpg

[starjots]

was the sphynx originally bright white like the pyramids were?

i think it would be badass if they restored a pyramid fully :D

It would not only be badass, I bet it would substantially increase tourism (ROI) if done faithfully. Heck, the restoration if done faithfully with ramps, copper chisels and such would be an amazing spectacle. People would pay to be part of resurfacing a pyramid, not to mention the lookie-loos.

[digesthisickness]

the two posts above, including the quote by melody, make me a bit physically ill. just thinking about those things being carried out offends my deep need to preserve truth; truth being the cornerstone to accurate knowledge. when these things are intact, 'ugly' can be beautiful.

[kuranes]

the two posts above, including the quote by melody, make me a bit physically ill. just thinking about those things being carried out offends my deep need to preserve truth And a photograph of the damaged sphinx ( for the archives ) versus the real thing would damage the artist's original "true" intentions how ?

Edit - would you feel the same way if ( magically ) we could verify that the reconstructed nose looked exactly like the original ? ( it's easier to figure out how the pyramid looked originally. )

[OrionzRevenge]

..... They may be calling dirt, decay and vandalism inspired genius when it is in fact dirt, decay and vandalism. "Some now find revolting" - doesn't that say it all? Who the fuck cares what some may find - what matters is what the artist originally made.
....

I think these sorts of considerations are what gives the OP's question Meat & Merit.

I agree with Ferrus that vandalism of historical significance becomes part of the work's value to us as surly as the hand of said work's creator.

Irrespective of our views on the subject, important issues and voices that should be vetted in considering a conservation include: Historians of course, the objective of the effort, for whom the work is being considered, and unfortunately sometimes: who is paying for it.

I doubt you'll see classical sculpture being painted or a pyramid being re-surfaced anytime soon.

It not only violates the premise of not adding non-native material, it also destroys the highly esteemed patina due to normal use and or normal aging.

[digesthisickness]

And a photograph of the damaged sphinx ( for the archives ) versus the real thing would damage the artist's original "true" intentions how ?

the architect didn't take a photograph, that's how.


Edit - would you feel the same way if ( magically ) we could verify that the reconstructed nose looked exactly like the original ? ( it's easier to figure out how the pyramid looked originally. )

irrelevant.

[kuranes]

irrelevant.It may be irrelevant to the sphinx question ( since there is no magic, and I was essentially asking hypothetically ) but ( here's one reason why I sometimes ask things hypothetically ) the same question could apply to other instances, where ( for example ) we may indeed have a photograph.

[starjots]

just thinking about those things being carried out offends my deep need to preserve truth; truth being the cornerstone to accurate knowledge.

The truth you value is the truth as it is now, not the truth as it was designed or created. The latter is more fundamental IMO. We don't need any additional reminders to know that things wear out and fall apart.

[kuranes]

the architect didn't take a photograph, that's how.
If you find photos ( or the lack of them ) relevant, why did you ignore what people had said about preserving the decayed and damaged version in a photograph ? The "truth" ( past anyway ) is therefore still there.

We present day humans are part of history also, and not just observers of it. Just as we are part of nature also, and needn't make wilderness areas nearly inaccessible in zealous efforts to preserve them.

[digesthisickness]

The truth you value is the truth as it is now, not the truth as it was designed or created. The latter is more fundamental IMO. We don't need any additional reminders to know that things wear out and fall apart.

i know what the truth i value is, but thanks anyway.

unless this thread carries weight with the Egyptian government, and they're waiting eagerly to see who wins this debate, i'll continue to operate under the assumption that this is a thread asking for personal opinions and ignore anyone trying to change my mind as if what i or they think matters.

[kuranes]

unless this thread carries weight with the Egyptian government, and they're waiting eagerly to see who wins this debate, i'll continue to operate under the assumption that this is a thread asking for personal opinion Just as we'll feel free to ask you about the logic behind your opinions versus its mere existence. Have no fear that the truth will be lost though, no matter how decayed your logic may look.

[digesthisickness]

i gave my reasons. that said, okey doke, you do that.

[last_caress]

make a replica, leave the originals alone.

[qualia]

I think minor repairs and repairs to keep from losing things are fine-- sort of. The Last Supper is a failed fresco, it's chipping off and will be gone entirely someday. But attempts to repair it in the past have damaged it further and sped up losing it.

Then again, people were outraged when they repaired the sistine chapel's yellowed veneer and dirty ceiling and some of the chips etc, but I think it was a fine thing to do as long as it didn't damage the piece itself. We now see it as it was originally painted.

http://monkey3media.com/visualisation/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/sistine.jpg

And this (http://acombrink.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/sistine_chapel_daniel_beforandafter.jpg) (it's large, so I won't put it directly in the thread).

I'm fine with restoring snapped off penises, although I think they should be removable again. But with stuff like the Sphinx's nose right now, it'd 1) smack a little of whitewashing colonialism 2) we didn't make it, why do we think we have the authority to "fix" it? and 3) we can't add to its value, importance and aesthetic, we can literally only subtract.

[kuranes]

make a replica, leave the originals alone.We could get a re-united Pink Floyd to lay down the first bricks.

[proverbs6:13]

I say we remove the noses from Mount Rushmore. Then add some decorative penises. Maybe we could smack Lincoln a little with a whitewashed colonial penis. This would put dozens of Americans back to work and reduce the deficit by up to 4.

[kuranes]

But with stuff like the Sphinx's nose right now, it'd 1) smack a little of whitewashing colonialism 2) we didn't make it, why do we think we have the authority to "fix" it? and 3) we can't add to its value, importance and aesthetic, we can literally only subtract.I don't know why people keep assuming it would be America doing the fixing of the Sphinx nose. The OP does not say that, as I mentioned when Karl raised the same issue. If we insisted on doing so, of course we would be interfering and told to STFU. Turning Digest's argument on its head - if the Egyptian government decided, based on evaluating Egyptian arguments for and against, to repair the Sphinx nose, then - they wouldn't particularly care about whether someone at INTPc thought it was wrong to do so. So what this thread is evaluating is the logic behind arguments to make or not undertake such changes, and it is disconnected from considerations of actually implementing them ourselves. I guess I didn't think I needed to make that clear.

Imagine that if such a nose repair were undertaken, there might be other changes ( surface decoration, as was mentioned by earlier posts ) that could be evaluated from an aesthetic perspective also. Who's to say they wouldn't add value ?

It would be looked at from perspectives other than strictly preserving history, with the exception of the photos and holograms etc.

[giegs]

That would be a really fun project to get involved with. I'd hope they did all the work according to period methods.

But the nose should stay on the ground.

[kuranes]

But the nose should stay on the ground.The nose should stay to the grindstone on such an endeavor, you mean ? ;-)

[kali]

The argument continued - "Right now its much more fashionable to create ugly things in Art. Beauty is considered somewhat 'corny'.

Yeah... I painted something and showed my art teacher, and she said, with a disapproving look and the wave of a hand, "It's too pretty, redo it". That pissed me off.

[Karl]

I don't know why people keep assuming it would be America doing the fixing of the Sphinx nose. The OP does not say that, as I mentioned when Karl raised the same issue. If we insisted on doing so, of course we would be interfering and told to STFU. Turning Digest's argument on its head - if the Egyptian government decided, based on evaluating Egyptian arguments for and against, to repair the Sphinx nose, then - they wouldn't particularly care about whether someone at INTPc thought it was wrong to do so. So what this thread is evaluating is the logic behind arguments to make or not undertake such changes, and it is disconnected from considerations of actually implementing them ourselves. I guess I didn't think I needed to make that clear.

Imagine that if such a nose repair were undertaken, there might be other changes ( surface decoration, as was mentioned by earlier posts ) that could be evaluated from an aesthetic perspective also. Who's to say they wouldn't add value ?

It would be looked at from perspectives other than strictly preserving history, with the exception of the photos and holograms etc.

Whether or not to do it is entirely subjective though. It would be something that had to be decided within the context of Egypt, and we don't really have any right to comment on that except in the most general way. We wouldn't have any more of a right to tell them not to do then we would to tell them to do it.

I missed your reply earlier so I found it:

it doesn't say "American" in the OP title. It says "somebody" or "someone" IIRC. So it could be the Egyptians themselves doing the repair. The question still stands.

The vast majority of people here are from the US. We have some europeans and Australians, but they don't have any more of a right to dictate this than we do. As far as I know, no one in this thread is Egyptian.

Secondly, if "we" buy off the egyptians or put pressure on them in some other way and they do the repairs that's not really any better, it's just a kind of cultural assimilation.

[starjots]

Secondly, if "we" buy off the egyptians or put pressure on them in some other way and they do the repairs that's not really any better, it's just a kind of cultural assimilation.

Then, by this logic, was it none of the world's business that the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas of Bamyan in 2001? Seems so.

[Karl]

Then, by this logic, was it none of the world's business that the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas of Bamyan in 2001? Seems so.

I don't see why it would be the rest of the world's business in that situation either. Especially when we're talking about a country that the US eventually went into and forcibly disposed the government and installed one that was more friendly to it, yes, I think jumping onto the media band wagon that I assume happened then would have been harmful and negative.

I say assume because I would have been around 10 years old and wasn't really paying attention to things like that.

[giegs]

The nose should stay to the grindstone on such an endeavor, you mean ? ;-)

Yea, I want to see the plans on how to do this now. That would be a wonderful kind of suffering to be able to do a stone project of that scale and difficulty. I demand to use my carbide chisels though. I can't imagine copper being all that great a material. Anyone been to Egypt? How hard is that stuff? Can someone go break off a piece for science?

Ancient Egyptian Chisels (http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/tools/chisel.html)

The only thing that seems missing is a handset. I'd love to know what some of those stranger shapes were used for.

[Mercurial]

make a replica, leave the originals alone.

That was my first thought upon seeing the thread. I like the ambiguity of not knowing exactly what the Sphinx, pyramids, etc. actually looked like. The unknown loses some of its addictive quality once it's frozen in a state.

Metropolis recently underwent further restoration... Following that line of logic, the nose should be restored if they have the pieces, but tacking on a new nose would ruin the artistic integrity.

[YHWH]

The sphinx is no work of art, it's an extravagant monument that's only worth is its historical significance and the culminating historical incidents it witnessed.
Adding a nose now would mean erasing a part of that history.

I'd like to see Venus de milo with badass (or terribly shitty) prosthetic arms though.

[Fig]

There are the weird unorthodox researchers like Robert Schoch
who don't think the Sphinx had a face to begin with.
Yeah I don't know about that.

http://www.robertschoch.com/images/sphinx/sphinxasliondvd1.jpg

[composer]

The problem is repairs are usually destructive. Much modern restoration is dealing with previous repairs, especially with paintings.

Ultimately I think it's pointless. It would cost millions, and I think the Egyptians were a stagnant, corrupt culture that contributed nothing to the world other than some overly expensive grave sites. Modern Egypt isn't much better, just look at the head of Egyptian antiquities, that old fraud Hawass. We went to a recent show put on by him - total rip off. All minor pieces - 'related to King Tut', junk mainly jazzed up with spooky music and lights.

Anyhow, why bother? It's just a weathered old statue for the tourists to swoon over. I've been better in grade-b SCIFI.

[Domino]

I watched a documentary about the Sphinx recently, and the bigger problem seems to be that water is eroding the dratted thing from beneath its foundation. The nose will have to wait.

[Neville]

Fuck, this is whole thread is exactly why I hate history.

[Lurker]

Sure. Some graduate students could get college credit for whipping up a nice Plaster of Paris nose job on the Sphinx. I'd sign up for that.