Enneagram is full of s^#t

[MaroonBells]

I have been trying to figure out my enneagram type and get a diffirent one pretty much every time I do it. Then again I have three types ranked very high and close together. I cannot resolve that issue with the wing as none of the three top types (5/7/9) make a "main+wing pair". Only consistent rating is sx/sp/so variant.

Latest score:

type score type behavior motivation
5 16 I must be knowledgable and independent to be happy.
7 15 I must be high and entertained to be happy.
9 15 I must be peaceful and easy to get along with to be happy.
3 14 I must be impressive and attractive to be happy.
8 11 I must be strong and in control to be happy.
2 10 I must be helpful and caring to be happy.
4 10 I must avoid painful feelings to be happy.
1 9 I must be perfect and good to be happy.
6 7 I must be secure and safe to be happy.

Anyone facing similar trouble with enneagram types?

[Last Song]

Are you just doing shitty online tests, or have you actually done some reading into this? :ph34r:

[MaroonBells]

I have been doing the similar minds tests and reading the stuff on the enneagram website. Any tips on good literature is welcomed!

[Killsteel]

Yeah, my three highest are like, 5, 8 and 2...

[MaroonBells]

Yeah, my three highest are like, 5, 8 and 2...

You see, the system is flawed! Why only have wings that are next to your main type? They seem like random personalities with associated numbers that have no logical relationship. I just don't get it.

[floyd]

the enneagram is nine stereotypes, if one happens to fit you of some people you know, the system makes sense depending on your level of self absorption, if not it does not work so well as the nine stereotypes do not cover the whole personality spectrum. the wing system is flawed and some of the major authors don't even use it, it makes far more sense to list your second highest scoring type than wing type. thanks to it's esoteric roots the nine stereotypes are not consistent from author to author which further undermines the system's usefulness... so reading more does not actually add clarity.

[cathmc]

I really like the Enneagram and have found it very useful. But b/c it focuses on motivations more than behavior it's hard to have an accurate test for it. I think the best one is the RHETI at http://www.enneagraminstitute.com but you have to pay to take the full version. Anyway a lot of enneagram 'experts' say its better to determine your type through study anyway since it IS about more about WHY you do things than what you do. I can recommend 2 books:
1 - The Enneagram Made Easy by R. Baron (some people hate this, it's very simplistic, but I found it a good intro)
2-Understanding the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson. Much more in-depth the first one and with more practical info than some of R&H's other books

[Helios]

I really don't like the system alot, so I am forcing my self to read various books on enneagram to be sure I am not missing something, so far I have enjoyed what I have learned but don't grasp the system the way I do MBTI. My normal routine is to beat something till I "get it" or can disprove it, so maybe I'll have a more defined view later.

[MaroonBells]

the wing system is flawed and some of the major authors don't even use it, it makes far more sense to list your second highest scoring type than wing type. / ... so reading more does not actually add clarity.

cheers,

[MaroonBells]

I really like the Enneagram and have found it very useful. But b/c it focuses on motivations more than behavior it's hard to have an accurate test for it. I think the best one is the RHETI at http://www.enneagraminstitute.com but you have to pay to take the full version. Anyway a lot of enneagram 'experts' say its better to determine your type through study anyway since it IS about more about WHY you do things than what you do. I can recommend 2 books:
1 - The Enneagram Made Easy by R. Baron (some people hate this, it's very simplistic, but I found it a good intro)
2-Understanding the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson. Much more in-depth the first one and with more practical info than some of R&H's other books

I think that because it focuses on motivations it is flawed, I do not have one "mother-motivation", sometimes I feel a need for knowledge, sometimes for thrills, sometimes for security. I'll check the books, thanks.

[MaroonBells]

My normal routine is to beat something till I "get it" or can disprove it, .

likewise, I have been beating for a while though and not getting a whole lot further, I'll read the stuff suggested above ...

[Lee]

the enneagram is nine stereotypes, if one happens to fit you of some people you know, the system makes sense depending on your level of self absorption, if not it does not work so well as the nine stereotypes do not cover the whole personality spectrum. the wing system is flawed and some of the major authors don't even use it, it makes far more sense to list your second highest scoring type than wing type. thanks to it's esoteric roots the nine stereotypes are not consistent from author to author which further undermines the system's usefulness... so reading more does not actually add clarity. Most of the criticisms you just directed at the enneagram are also applicable to MBTI, neither are perfect and incidently they are not meant to be*, but personally I find the enneagram fairly unhelpful, what is strange is how NF types seem drawn to it, enough reason to suspect it as it is ;)

*That's why I have always preferred working from the keirsey temperaments, they do not try to be more than they are. I always feel socionics, Jungian functions, MBTI, they all try to keep forcing every last drip of information out of them, the further they go the more removed from reality they seem to get.

[MaroonBells]

Most of the criticisms you just directed at the enneagram are also applicable to MBTI, neither are perfect and incidently they are not meant to be*, but personally I find the enneagram fairly unhelpful, what is strange is how NF types seem drawn to it, enough reason to suspect it as it is ;)

*That's why I have always preferred working from the keirsey temperaments, they do not try to be more than they are. I always feel socionics, Jungian functions, MBTI, they all try to keep forcing every last drip of information out of them, the further they go the more removed from reality they seem to get.

I think the benefit of MBTI is that you can view your treats on a scale (more/ less extravert etc). I do like the tempraments a lot too, very helpful, particularly as my NT is a lot more pronounced that the IP portion.

[Trolsk]

I wish people could give me money the times they call themselves "extremely introverted".

[MaroonBells]

I wish people could give me money the times they call themselves "extremely introverted".

exactly, it shows how gladly we take a position along a scale of opposites, whether it is on an extreme or smack in the middle! that shows the practical value of Jung's thinking.

[Serotonin]

http://www.thechangeworks.com/ennprimer/ennprimer.html

Best resource IMHO..

[LuridLemur]

The similar minds test isn't very accurate at all. Try this one http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php The second one tells you your variant.

If you want to read a book explaining it I'd reccomend Wisdom of the Enneagram. It explains the system a lot better than any site I've found.

[s]

I really identified strongly with type 5 right away (ditto for INTP profile). I fit snugly into a sterotype at last!

[grin]

[Winterpark]

The similar minds test isn't very accurate at all. Try this one http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php

It looks better to me, and I think chances to get a proper wing are higher because of the two-side form of the test. Here 's what I got.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y243/djWinterpark/5w4.jpg

The link Serotonin posted has very good information too.

You can also try http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/mbtypes.htm


.

[Killsteel]

Joy. Here's what I got in this test:

You are most likely a type 1 (the Reformer) with 9 wing

Social variant


Type 1 SO
Type 5 SX
Type 4 SP
Type 6 SP
Type 3 SX
Type 8 SX
Type 7 SO
Type 9 SX
Type 2 SP

Now, clearly, there's either something wrong with enneagram, or something wrong with me. I prefer to think it's the former...

[LuridLemur]

Nah, you're just out o' whack.

Honestly, I don't know why it doesn't seem to fit for you. Have you looked through the profiles just to see which type sounds like you?

[Vagabond]

Like many people suggested... do some reading. The enneagram tests are not too accurate most of the times, because the enneagram has more to do with the motivations and not the behaviours. And since the tests are made by people, I think it is clear why their accuracy is relative. Read a lot of descriptions and observe a lot of people who have found their type, and compare the two. That's the only way if you want to be sure. I have found the enneagram very helpful and very accurate. In time you get to see the difference between how your wings influence you and how your integration/disintegration lines influence you and what way each type influences you overall. Don't read just one author either. Read many. If you are an iNtuitive, you will soon start to distinguish the patterns and make observations of your own as well.

[MaroonBells]

The similar minds test isn't very accurate at all. Try this one http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php The second one tells you your variant.

If you want to read a book explaining it I'd reccomend Wisdom of the Enneagram. It explains the system a lot better than any site I've found.

Though the questions and the format seem similar, my test results were very different from the "similarminds.com" site:

>>>>>

You are most likely a type 7 (the Enthusiast) with 8 wing

Social variant

Type 7 SO
Type 8 SX
Type 3 SX
Type 1 SX
Type 9 SX
Type 5 SO
Type 4 SX
Type 2 SX
Type 6 SX

>>>>>

Funny enough Type 5 drops to somewhere on the bottom... I'll read the interpretation, will be right back.

[jyakulis]

Though the questions and the format seem similar, my test results were very different from the "similarminds.com" site:

>>>>>

You are most likely a type 7 (the Enthusiast) with 8 wing

Social variant

Type 7 SO
Type 8 SX
Type 3 SX
Type 1 SX
Type 9 SX
Type 5 SO
Type 4 SX
Type 2 SX
Type 6 SX

>>>>>

Funny enough Type 5 drops to somewhere on the bottom... I'll read the interpretation, will be right back.


Like d00d, maybe you are just an extravert with a little social anxiety and typing as an I. I don't think it's uncommon for ENTP or ESTP's to type as a 7. Beats me though. AND no one says you necessarily have to be a 5 to be INTP. (even though I don't agree with that...that's what they'll tell ya)

[MaroonBells]

Like d00d, maybe you are just an extravert with a little social anxiety and typing as an I. I don't think it's uncommon for ENTP or ESTP's to type as a 7. Beats me though. AND no one says you necessarily have to be a 5 to be INTP. (even though I don't agree with that...that's what they'll tell ya)

Ha, ha - great, love that interpretation! Maybe I am. Hope I can stick around and enjoy everyone's views and comments on INTP Central!

[MaroonBells]

jyakulis, I am still thinking about your remark: "an extravert with a little social anxiety". That seems so contradictory. I haven't made my mind up on this one but thanks for toppling my world.

[Lee]

jyakulis, I am still thinking about your remark: "an extravert with a little social anxiety". That seems so contradictory. I haven't made my mind up on this one but thanks for toppling my world.It can be very difficult to figure out the cause of Introverted behaviour, Introversion is a symtom and symtoms do not always have the same causes.

[jyakulis]

jyakulis, I am still thinking about your remark: "an extravert with a little social anxiety". That seems so contradictory. I haven't made my mind up on this one but thanks for toppling my world.


ehh I just got it from ENTP.org. They were talking about having a little social anxiety until they get a few drinks in them. Of course when I have a few in me I go straight ENTP too so who knows. Also, I'm pretty sure you can still have it even if you are an E. One thing I notice about being an INTP even if it's just a group of my friends (no social anxiety). I'll continually only address one person with topics instead of the group trying to draw them into a deep conversation.

[LuridLemur]

It can be very difficult to figure out the cause of Introverted behaviour, Introversion is a symtom and symtoms do not always have the same causes.
Good point. When my ENTJ friend was depressed and having a very bad year he was very very introverted and just sat around reading all day ignoring people. Now that he's healthier he is constantly on the go and makes plans to hang out with people all the time.

I don't actually like the change, but at least it makes him feel better.

[CosmicDust]

Like d00d, maybe you are just an extravert with a little social anxiety and typing as an I. I don't think it's uncommon for ENTP or ESTP's to type as a 7. Beats me though. AND no one says you necessarily have to be a 5 to be INTP. (even though I don't agree with that...that's what they'll tell ya)
Nah, you don't have to be a 5 to be INTP. You can be 6, 9, possibly even 3. (The INTP 3 I know from LJ and originally from NGene's free Forumer version of this place could possibly be an ENTP with a bit of social anxiety, though. He's an optimist, which seems strange for an INTP.) You can be any MBTI and be a 6, in fact, and there's also lots of diversity in 3 and 9 MBTI-wise. Maybe you could be a 3 of any MBTI as well...just not quite as often or as easily as a 6.

As you can see from my signature, I no longer think it likely that I'm an INTP 5 myself...

[LuridLemur]

But 7 seems really odd for an INTP. 7s are supposedly not very introspective, right? That's seems like more of an E thing.

[CosmicDust]

But 7 seems really odd for an INTP. 7s are supposedly not very introspective, right? That's seems like more of an E thing.
N 7s can have strong introspective streaks. But they are usually not strong introverts...they're more likely to be strong extroverts but may be close to the I/E border. I've seen a few of those "ambiverted" 7s online. If function theory isn't crap, they'd prefer their Ne and Ti almost equally.

[floyd]

alcohol makes most everyone more extroverted, hence its moniker 'social lubricant'

/And since the tests are made by people, I think it is clear why their accuracy is relative./

who makes enneagram descriptions and enneagram theory? if they are just as relative why would they be any more useful?

[Killsteel]

Looking at the profiles, the ones that most relate to me are 1, 4, 5, and 8. It seems like I'm a 5w4, but with 1 and 8 tendancies. I'm much more 'angry' than fives and fours seem to be...

[waxwing]

www.enneagramcentral.com is helpful to me.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the home page, on the lower right is a link for "50 free...something...I forget. Anyway, there you find lots of essays and articles that elucidate the 9 types and variants. After reading the article, "The Intimate Five" (meaning 5 with a sexual variant), I was struck by how deeply I related. As far as testing goes, I haven't scored consistently 5w4, but most often I do. I've also scored 7 and 9 at times. I also disagree with the comments made suggesting that E types are not introspective. I am on the E/I border, but the reason I don't think I'm a 7 is not because I think I'm an (I) and I think I'm introspective. It's because I don't think it it captures my essense whereas the 5w4/sx seems accurate to a greater degree. I only became really intrigued by the enneagram after I started reading very specific essays written about types, variant, and wings, in combination. Not a generic description of each basic type. If you read "The Intimate Five," you may see what I mean. Or not....http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Ka.avik]

Try this one http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php
It insists I'm either a 1 or an 8. 1w9? Don't think so. Now, the first time I took (probably the similiar minds test) it said I was a 6/sp. Which sounds almost delusionally paranoid....

the description of a 5wX sounds fine...either wing sounds closer than a pure 5 :p

As to someone else's comment about NFs prefering the enneagram -- I know one ENFP who feels it is much better at describing her (#4) and an INFP who didn't say her type, but in general derided the enneagram as 'weird'

[tragula]

I agree that the Enneagram is somewhat bogus, and have stated so several times.

The nine types do not even come close to fitting everyone. And there are far too many Enneagram factions. Some type descriptions I have read have bothered me a lot more than others. I really resent the ones which imply that all human beings are some sort of wounded child acting out our unmet needs in our daily lives. And of course that is the sort of stuff NF types eat up like chocolate covered popcorn

I think it is great to have a test that deals with motivation. I just think someone needs to come up with a better one.

That said, I respect people's right to dabble in the Enneagram as a mystical hobby, much like astrology. Like most things, what you get out of it often corresponds to what you put into it.

[Vagabond]

That said, I respect people's right to dabble in the Enneagram as a mystical hobby, much like astrology. Like most things, what you get out of it often corresponds to what you put into it. Um... astrology...? That's exactly what some people I know think of the MBTI as well. Before they read enough on it.

[tragula]

Well let's just agree that the Enneagram occupies some ambiguous place inbetween Astrology and MBTI in terms of credibility. :whistle:

[Vagabond]

Well let's just agree that the Enneagram occupies some ambiguous place inbetween Astrology and MBTI in terms of credibility. :whistle: I don't see why I would agree with that when I actually disagree.

[Helios]

Well I am still learning, but at a much faster pace. My respect for Enneagram has greatly increased. I can clearly see myself as a 7, which is what I have tested as recently, and also think an issue last year created the "anger" swell that distorted my prior results. I also found type 2, to be a flawless description of my ISFJ mother. It will be interesting to see where the rest of my fam and friends fall. Like MBTI no sterotype is perfect, but for better or worse the Unhealthy 7 is exactly who I am right now, while the avg 7 was me a few years ago, and the the health one a hazy memory. I still have the most limited understanding but am glad I put forth the effort to read beyond the fluff of an online test.




edit-some info i found on 7, which I think is very compatable with INTP.



Healthy: Highly responsive, excitable, enthusiastic about sensation and experience. Most extroverted type: stimuli bring immediate responses — they find everything invigorating. Lively, vivacious, eager, spontaneous, resilient, cheerful. / Easily become accomplished achievers, generalists who do many different things well: multi-talented. Practical, productive, usually prolific, cross-fertilizing areas of interest. At Their Best: Assimilate experiences in depth, (<<Ne?) making them deeply grateful and appreciative for what they have. Become awed by the simple wonders of life: joyous and ecstatic. Intimations of spiritual reality, of the boundless goodness of life.

Average: As restlessness increases, want to have more options and choices available to them. Become adventurous and "worldly wise," but less focused, constantly seeking new things and experiences: the sophisticate, connoisseur, and consumer. Money, variety, keeping up with the latest trends important. / Unable to discriminate what they really need, become hyperactive, unable to say "no" to themselves, throwing self into constant activity. Uninhibited, doing and saying whatever comes to mind: storytelling, flamboyant exaggerations, witty wise-cracking, performing. Fear being bored: in perpetual motion, but do too many things — many ideas but little follow through. / Get into conspicuous consumption and all forms of excess. Self-centered, materialistic, and greedy, never feeling that they have enough. Demanding and pushy, yet unsatisfied and jaded. Addictive, hardened, and insensitive.

Unhealthy: Desperate to quell their anxieties, can be impulsive and infantile: do not know when to stop. Addictions and excess take their toll: debauched, depraved, dissipated escapists, offensive and abusive. In flight from self, acting out impulses rather than dealing with anxiety or frustrations: go out of control, into erratic mood swings, and compulsive actions (manias). Finally, their energy and health is completely spent: become claustrophobic and panic-stricken. Often give up on themselves and life: deep depression and despair, self-destructive overdoses, impulsive suicide. Generally corresponds to the Manic-Depressive and Histrionic personality disorders.

Key Motivations: Want to maintain their freedom and happiness, to avoid missing out on worthwhile experiences, to keep themselves excited and occupied, to avoid and discharge pain.



Worldview: Life is an adventure with limitless possibilities.

Unconscious Habit: Gluttony

Gift: Optimism

The optimistic Seven sees the bright side of any situation. A high energy, upbeat person, the Epicure can sweep others up in his enthusiasm. S/he enjoys envisioning possibilities and options. Sevens are great Idea people spinning out seemingly endless visions and potentials. Planning for future pleasure and fun is a major preoccupation of the Epicure. Sevens are synergistic thinkers who make connections between seemingly unlike things.

Dark Side of the Gift:
The Seven's one-sided focus on the bright side of life can lead them to neglect an entire realm of human experience. Sadness, pain, loss or difficulty are assiduously avoided by the Epicure. Others may find that the Seven cannot be counted on to be there in times of crisis, or even to address serious issues. The archetypal child who never grows up, the Seven rushes greedily to the next experience or sensation. The Epicure's ability to reframe problems into positives may lead them to dismiss real the downsides of life. Sevens feel trapped by limitation of options, which can lead to difficulties with commitment - to tasks, people, or both. Epicures spin out ideas and visions prodigiously, but may not complete projects. Sevens can be dilettantes trying a variety of jobs, hobbies, sports, yet moving on to something new before becoming truly proficient at any single enterprise.

Internal Terrain
Sevens feel that life is just too wonderful to waste time wallowing in pain or sadness. Why be down when you can be up? They can find the silver lining in the darkest cloud. Life seems filled with endless possibilites. Epicures like to have a lot of options and plans open, even if they don't avail themselves of these possibilities. Commitment to a single option feels like being trapped. When a Seven has a great idea or vision, they almost feel like they've done it already - in the mind. So it isn't necessarily important to complete a project when they've already had the satisfaction of the idea. If bored, Ithe Seven sees no problem in just moving on to something new. Deep inside,Sevens" avoidance of pain and emotional difficulty stems from the fear that the feelings will annihilate them.



I am thinking perhaps enneagram is about why we do things, and MBTI is how we do things?

[MasterMerk]

I feel very close to 7, also. Never really fit 5 or 9. I can see a bit of 4 in me when I'm in a bad mood.

[Vagabond]

Okay... sevens are extroverts. By default. Take that into consideration. :)

[Helios]

I feel very close to 7, also. Never really fit 5 or 9. I can see a bit of 4 in me when I'm in a bad mood.



Yeah , you crossed my mind as a 7 too, sadly the best description I found is in a book I am reading and thus so far I am way too damn lazy to type it out.

It talks about how (unhealthy) 7s tend to seek more and more stimulation and more and new and now etc. Never stopping to enjoy the present. I really stuck me as myself. I was in the car listening to music and was gettting frustrated cause I wanted to get the feeling of hearing all my fav parts, but I wanted all now, all at once, it was almost painful not to FF to the notes I like best. I realized just how F-ed up I am.

7s are also most likely to be Manics and addicts(most often to meth), which I am very manic and while fear has kept me away from true meth, I love its little cousins.

I don't have any idea how to do this but it said to reintergrate a 7 must learn to focus on and enjoy the present and find happyness there. Thinking back I know I did this before, but somehow I forgot how.

[Helios]

Okay... sevens are extroverts. By default. Take that into consideration. :)



I disagree. There is a "Cult of Introversion" around here. I mean our second strongest function is Ne! Being an INTP doesn't exclude one from having any socail skills, nor mandates a life as a hermit. I live in my Ti, if my Ne didn't go out and get things for Ti to ponder what the hell would it do all day? It sure ain't going out there itself !

[MasterMerk]

Yeah , you crossed my mind as a 7 too, sadly the best description I found is in a book I am reading and thus so far I am way too damn lazy to type it out.

It talks about how (unhealthy) 7s tend to seek more and more stimulation and more and new and now etc. Never stopping to enjoy the present. I really stuck me as myself. I was in the car listening to music and was gettting frustrated cause I wanted to get the feeling of hearing all my fav parts, but I wanted all now, all at once, it was almost painful not to FF to the notes I like best. I realized just how F-ed up I am.

7s are also most likely to be Manics and addicts(most often to meth), which I am very manic and while fear has kept me away from true meth, I love its little cousins.

I don't have any idea how to do this but it said to reintergrate a 7 must learn to focus on and enjoy the present and find happyness there. Thinking back I know I did this before, but somehow I forgot how.

I'm the same with the music. I also happen to be very manic and racing, thoughts and activity wise.

7s never get what they really want, because they can't accept and appreciate it once they have it. The thought itself much more appealing than the reality of acquisition, the seeking faze the most pleasurable. The story of my life. I've only ever felt alive when manic, but, too bad once that finishes you're stuck at level 1 again. You don't even feel like you've earned anything, so you trot off again to the next acquisition.

Not being able to finish anything blows, but not even taking pleasure in completion is worse. I need to learn that.

Too much Ne! ack

[Helios]

I'm the same with the music. I also happen to be very manic and racing, thoughts and activity wise.

7s never get what they really want, because they can't accept and appreciate it once they have it. The thought itself much more appealing than the reality of acquisition, the seeking faze the most pleasurable. The story of my life. I've only ever felt alive when manic, but, too bad once that finishes you're stuck at level 1 again. You don't even feel like you've earned anything, so you trot off again to the next acquisition.

Not being able to finish anything blows, but not even taking pleasure in completion is worse. I need to learn that.

Too much Ne! ack



Yeah, I sooo know what ya mean about the acquisition verse the possesion. How everything loses all it value once I have it. You know, if you are for real about the music, you are one fucked up dude, I know this first hand! 8O



edit-sometimes completeion offers "relief" that you have survived such awful focus are free to race off to the next thing! eg When I got to leave work today 30min early I about creamed myself, why? No reason I just didn't have to be there anymore! I drove home at 90mph with the top down screaming WooooHooo all the way home! (again for no reason)

[MasterMerk]

Yeah, I sooo know what ya mean about the acquisition verse the possesion. How everything loses all it value once I have it. You know, if you are for real about the music, you are one fucked up dude, I know this first hand! 8O


I compose tunes sometimes, with me it's like your mind goes way too fast to get it all out into tangible music (I can scat like a madman). It's rather the same experience when listening, I find myself wishing the music would go faster because my brain is speeding way way ahead of it. Almost as if I think I could process it all in a second.



edit-sometimes completeion offers "relief" that you have survived such awful focus are free to race off to the next thing!

I hear ya. In a group, while everyone else is celebrating what we've accomplished, I'm off feeling glad that we've finished it in the first place. I like my freedom. :)

[waxwing]

It talks about how (unhealthy) 7s tend to seek more and more stimulation and more and new and now etc. Never stopping to enjoy the present. I really stuck me as myself. I was in the car listening to music and was gettting frustrated cause I wanted to get the feeling of hearing all my fav parts, but I wanted all now, all at once, it was almost painful not to FF to the notes I like best. I realized just how F-ed up I am.

7s are also most likely to be Manics and addicts(most often to meth), which I am very manic and while fear has kept me away from true meth, I love its little cousins.

I don't have any idea how to do this but it said to reintergrate a 7 must learn to focus on and enjoy the present and find happyness there. Thinking back I know I did this before, but somehow I forgot how.
Very interesting. I'm constantly struck by my inability to sustain interest in an activity. Boredom threshold is extremely low. I'm often in a hypomanic or manic state, and although I've been on and off of Lithium, it never takes away that inner restlessness and flightiness. I've got a very dark side and I often think about how there is no beauty without sadness. Hmmm....

Like I've said before, I test as a 7 at times. I never actually believed it fit me because I wasn't able to find a description that fit. Now, I'm not so sure except for that detachment seems to be my way of coping and thus pervades my life. When I'm most honest with myself, I call myself flighty and disconnected.

[tragula]

I disagree. There is a "Cult of Introversion" around here. I mean our second strongest function is Ne! Being an INTP doesn't exclude one from having any socail skills, nor mandates a life as a hermit. I live in my Ti, if my Ne didn't go out and get things for Ti to ponder what the hell would it do all day? It sure ain't going out there itself !


Well put Helios!

My second strongest function is Fi, however... If you haven't taken the cognitive processes test yet, then you should give it a whirl...


Vagabond. I was just yanking your chain a little bit. :)

The point is that MBTI is based mostly on the observation of patterns, as I understand it.

While the Enneagram is based on some mystical stuff.

I test as a 6 "loyal skeptic" based on the http://www.authenticenneagram.com (I have also read a Helen Palmer book on the Enneagram.)

It bothers me because it insists Fear is primary for me. But I have many other motivations.... besides, as they say--you are not paranoid if they are really out to get you. (Life IS dangerous. Any other interpretation is denial.)

[Ka.avik]

I test as a 6 "loyal skeptic"
[...]
It bothers me because it insists Fear is primary for me. But I have many other motivations.... besides, as they say--you are not paranoid if they are really out to get you. (Life IS dangerous. Any other interpretation is denial.)

Life is pain, anyone who tells you differently, princess...is selling something.

-Dread Pirate Roberts

I've never considered my motivations all that deeply...I just believe in being honest...and might be inclined to describing my main motivator as the facilitation of honesty. I suppose among other people, that would require a healthy dose of fear.

I still think that 6/sp sounds delusional. And, I find it odd that either wing off a 5 sounds equally fine, but a pure five sounds like somebody that needs to get a life.

[Winterpark]

Anybody knows to what types are each of the 9 paragraphs reffering to in http://www.authenticenneagram.com/essential_enneagram_test/index.html ???

[Helios]

This is what I have to do to be happy??!

Fuck that shit!

The six requirements to which Epicures (7) must commit

reducing excess stimulation and mental futurizing;
grounding in the present;
accepting pain and suffering as part of making life whole;
making and keeping commitments and agreements with self and others;
referencing to the desires and well-being of others in equal proportion to own desires and well-being; and
realizing that the full spectrum of life and deeper purpose includes the "darker side" of life -- its pains, loss, suffering, and limitations.



*runs off to get wasted and party*

[Kisaki]

Anybody knows to what types are each of the 9 paragraphs reffering to in http://www.authenticenneagram.com/essential_enneagram_test/index.html ???

A. Type Eight
B. Type One
C. Type Nine
D. Type Two
E. Type Three
F. Type Five
G. Type Six
H. Type Seven
I. Type Four
:)

[Killsteel]

A and F really both seemed to 'click' for me.

No suprise there really...

I have a feeling A is how I like to act, and F is my 'natural' state...

[MasterMerk]

Accoriding to enneagram theory, a healthy 5 may take on some 8 qualities.

[LuridLemur]

An unhealthy 5 leans towards 7 too, which could explain some of the confusion figuring out type. There is a part in Wisdom of the Enneagram that explains the 9 different levels of health for each type and how you can dop a few levels during the day or even within a few minutes. Enneagram tests are not always too accurate because they assess your personality based on your answers which change with your mood. If the test isn't accurate you probably need to look deeper into the theory to figure out what type you are.

Either that or the test is bullshit.

[Winterpark]

A. Type Eight
B. Type One
C. Type Nine
D. Type Two
E. Type Three
F. Type Five
G. Type Six
H. Type Seven
I. Type Four
:)

Thanks.

My choice was: F,I,C. This certifies the correctness of my enneagram type for once again.

[AcidGoethe]

The enneagram has alot of problems once you get out of the stereotypes. ENTP's tend to be 3/5/7/8 at the same time, ENTJ's 1/3/5/8... it doesn't even hold on any empirical base (probably because they could never find any)

[MaroonBells]

Nah, you don't have to be a 5 to be INTP. You can be 6, 9, possibly even 3. (The INTP 3 I know from LJ and originally from NGene's free Forumer version of this place could possibly be an ENTP with a bit of social anxiety, though. He's an optimist, which seems strange for an INTP.) You can be any MBTI and be a 6, in fact, and there's also lots of diversity in 3 and 9 MBTI-wise. Maybe you could be a 3 of any MBTI as well...just not quite as often or as easily as a 6.

As you can see from my signature, I no longer think it likely that I'm an INTP 5 myself...

I appreciate your views but you explain the enneagram in its own terms. If I don't agree with the terms, how can I agree with the method?

Regarding your: "He's an optimist, which seems strange for an INTP." Is that true? I never viewed it like that and I am a total optimist. Aren't you?

[MaroonBells]

N 7s can have strong introspective streaks. But they are usually not strong introverts...they're more likely to be strong extroverts but may be close to the I/E border. I've seen a few of those "ambiverted" 7s online. If function theory isn't crap, they'd prefer their Ne and Ti almost equally.

It seems like I can balance the Ne and Ti very much. In stress I can flip to the darkside F and S equally, getting both very sensitive to critique and seeking overstimulation.

[Helios]

From my limited understanding it seems like MBTI is more or less "how" and Ennea is "why" we do things.

[MaroonBells]

www.enneagramcentral.com is helpful to me.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the home page, on the lower right is a link for "50 free...something...I forget. Anyway, there you find lots of essays and articles that elucidate the 9 types and variants. After reading the article, "The Intimate Five" (meaning 5 with a sexual variant), I was struck by how deeply I related. As far as testing goes, I haven't scored consistently 5w4, but most often I do. I've also scored 7 and 9 at times. I also disagree with the comments made suggesting that E types are not introspective. I am on the E/I border, but the reason I don't think I'm a 7 is not because I think I'm an (I) and I think I'm introspective. It's because I don't think it it captures my essense whereas the 5w4/sx seems accurate to a greater degree. I only became really intrigued by the enneagram after I started reading very specific essays written about types, variant, and wings, in combination. Not a generic description of each basic type. If you read "The Intimate Five," you may see what I mean. Or not....http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Thanks WW, these descriptions are better - more specific - than most I have seen. Both the 7sx and 5sx still seem to fit me. Maybe I am just a schizo ;)

[CosmicDust]

Regarding your: "He's an optimist, which seems strange for an INTP." Is that true? I never viewed it like that and I am a total optimist. Aren't you?
Am I an optimist? HELL no! I was called Eeyore as a kid. I mean, I can do optimism at times, but a negative outlook is my default. And apparently this isn't uncommon among INTPs, since somebody wrote somewhere on here that INTPs are often the Eeyores. A negative outlook is quite common among 5s and 6w5s (the lower half of the Head Triad), while 6w7s and 7s are more likely (but not guaranteed) are more likely to look on the bright side. INTPs are more likely to fall in the often negative-outlook-prone bottom half of the Head Triad, while ENTPs or XNTPs might fall on the top half more often.

That 3 kid I talked about has reported being HSP and perhaps a tad Socially Anxious. He has a strong orientation toward doing and achievement in the outside world, although he also requires his downtime when he can get it and not fall behind the game. He has a lot of cerebral interests, but that can be true of any N.

[Imen de Naars]

I'm the same with the music. I also happen to be very manic and racing, thoughts and activity wise.

7s never get what they really want, because they can't accept and appreciate it once they have it. The thought itself much more appealing than the reality of acquisition, the seeking faze the most pleasurable. The story of my life. I've only ever felt alive when manic, but, too bad once that finishes you're stuck at level 1 again. You don't even feel like you've earned anything, so you trot off again to the next acquisition.

Not being able to finish anything blows, but not even taking pleasure in completion is worse. I need to learn that.

Too much Ne! ack

Argh! That's me.

[MaroonBells]

I disagree. There is a "Cult of Introversion" around here. I mean our second strongest function is Ne! Being an INTP doesn't exclude one from having any socail skills, nor mandates a life as a hermit. I live in my Ti, if my Ne didn't go out and get things for Ti to ponder what the hell would it do all day? It sure ain't going out there itself !

I like the way you put that: have Ne get the stuff for Ti to ponder. That is exactly why I get out there, to observe, interact and swallow my brainfood! Since I am such a glutton, I get out there quite a bit and I can confidently say now that I am a true xNTP!

[MaroonBells]

It talks about how (unhealthy) 7s tend to seek more and more stimulation and more and new and now etc. Never stopping to enjoy the present. I really stuck me as myself. I was in the car listening to music and was gettting frustrated cause I wanted to get the feeling of hearing all my fav parts, but I wanted all now, all at once, it was almost painful not to FF to the notes I like best. I realized just how F-ed up I am.

that's me as well, I tend to have tons of cd's openly laying around in the car, putting them in there, skipping through and out there again so fast that I never complete a song, totally manic, totally frustrating...

[Helios]

Uh oh sounds like another wacked out 7!

[Helios]

Am I an optimist? HELL no! I was called Eeyore as a kid. I mean, I can do optimism at times, but a negative outlook is my default. And apparently this isn't uncommon among INTPs, since somebody wrote somewhere on here that INTPs are often the Eeyores. A negative outlook is quite common among 5s and 6w5s (the lower half of the Head Triad), while 6w7s and 7s are more likely (but not guaranteed) are more likely to look on the bright side. INTPs are more likely to fall in the often negative-outlook-prone bottom half of the Head Triad, while ENTPs or XNTPs might fall on the top half more often.

That 3 kid I talked about has reported being HSP and perhaps a tad Socially Anxious. He has a strong orientation toward doing and achievement in the outside world, although he also requires his downtime when he can get it and not fall behind the game. He has a lot of cerebral interests, but that can be true of any N.



When I was in my early teens my g/f at the time bought me a lil ceramic Eeyore from Disney World. I was baffeled at the time, and had not thought of it in years. Ancient history now, my Ne can be what ever you wanna see now, just don't get fuckin' nosey and wanna see behind the curtain,cause that shit ain't happen!

[Serotonin]

You've always struck me as a 7 Helios.

5s have a connection to 7. At parties, when drunk, I can come out of my shell completely, and "7-out". Most of the night I'll sit quietly with my beer having a one-on-one conversation, but get to a point where something wacky or strange is happening and I may turn into a bit of a hedonist. It really is strange, kinda like an "all-or-nothing" thing. I access 7 more than I access 8.

[floyd]

at parties everyone sevens out... integration/disintegration lines are another unproven enneagram theory. in fact, there are alternate integration/disintegration lines 5-2-8 instead of 5-7-8 that can be derived from earlier enneagram symbols.

what i am curious to know is what personality type takes an entire man made system, from top to bottom, as truth without any empirical evidence. i would guess most intps would not.

[coffeezombie]

what i am curious to know is what personality type takes an entire man made system, from top to bottom, as truth without any empirical evidence. i would guess most intps would not.

Most people who believe the Enneagram works do so because it corresponds with what they have observed personally.

[floyd]

what do you expect a system head to admit that they believe everything because the are too stupid or mentally lazy to take what works and discard what doesn't? of course they are going to say it all makes sense to them. self delusion is a common human ability... you see what you believe (hence the need for empirical evidence). the ediots that observe type,wing,variant,integration lines,health levels which are the entire riso enneagram system (many other enneagram authors don't have half that junk) are far more likely system heads than intelligent people who have individually verified all those aspects. what are the odds that an entire intuitively crafted complex personality system is entirely correct... it's ridiculously implausible.

[Serotonin]

what do you expect a system head to admit that they believe everything because the are too stupid or mentally lazy to take what works and discard what doesn't? of course they are going to say it all makes sense to them. self delusion is a common human ability... you see what you believe (hence the need for empirical evidence). the ediots that observe type,wing,variant,integration lines,health levels which are the entire riso enneagram system (many other enneagram authors don't have half that junk) are far more likely system heads than intelligent people who have individually verified all those aspects. what are the odds that an entire intuitively crafted complex personality system is entirely correct... it's ridiculously implausible.

No, not everyone sevens out at parties. I have seen people four-out and nine-out for example (but they weren't necessarily ones or threes).

Well of course it's not plausible and will never stand up to empirical evidence... but by the very definition of each "style", they are abstract and impossible to quantify empirically, hence your argument doesn't make sense. We're not talking about measuring speeds or size or chemical makeup of objects here, we're talking about a subjective interpretation of people's personality. This is why I only argue with religious people on demonstrable truths, rather than the "essence of faith" because the spiritual side in their minds is completely legit, IMHO.

You just keep on flingin' that shit mr. spiky, it slides right off. "I don't believe it, and neither should you!"

[MaroonBells]

... but by the very definition of each "style", they are abstract and impossible to quantify empirically, hence your argument doesn't make sense. We're not talking about measuring speeds or size or chemical makeup of objects here, we're talking about a subjective interpretation of people's personality.

personality just might one day be measurable as our "chemical makeup" :)

[Vagabond]

what do you expect a system head to admit that they believe everything because the are too stupid or mentally lazy to take what works and discard what doesn't? of course they are going to say it all makes sense to them. self delusion is a common human ability... you see what you believe (hence the need for empirical evidence). the ediots that observe type,wing,variant,integration lines,health levels which are the entire riso enneagram system (many other enneagram authors don't have half that junk) are far more likely system heads than intelligent people who have individually verified all those aspects. what are the odds that an entire intuitively crafted complex personality system is entirely correct... it's ridiculously implausible. So basically, whoever has observed that the wing theory works and accepts it as valid for that reason, is a delusional idiot that has been brainwashed. In order to be an intelligent individual independant thinker, one has to accept your theory, because um... you said so...?

[floyd]

/personality just might one day be measurable as our "chemical makeup"/

i think it will be both chemical and anatomical aspects which will be measured to profile.

/So basically, whoever has observed that the wing theory works and accepts it as valid for that reason, is a delusional idiot that has been brainwashed. In order to be an intelligent individual independant thinker, one has to accept your theory, because um... you said so...?/

it is remotely possible that it's all true, but for the odds of innaccuracy to not be admitted by those who buy into all the riso facets (i.e. i believe it but more than likely i am wrong on some of the elements), it's more likely they are a system head than an intelligent person.

if someone tells you something amazingly accurate (to you) and then a bunch of other stuff, you are more likely to believe the other stuff even if it is all wrong. because you cognitively choose to see/observe in the world only the details that affirm the riso system which you have accepted (although you are not aware of this selective viewing). that's how i think the riso enneagram works, the profiles really fit 'some' people very well, those are the people most likely to then buy into the whole system. an intelligent, inquisitive person is able to tear apart, customise, pick and choose, so when you run into an ehead that buys into the whole riso system (who is just one e author), all elements, it's more likely they are system head than that riso's system is accurate. if you can't admit that the odds are that you are wrong, then you are more likely delusional. average human nature is predisposed to buying into whole systems, cognitive selectiveness is the exception.

[Vagabond]

I can't understand something, honestly... why do you assume that someone who accepts the wing theory, accepts the entire Riso philosophy too? Why do you assume that if I say I find parts of your theory valid, I accept it entirely? Personally, I find the wing theory valid because I see that it applies (in my perspective anyway). I don't see the intergration/disintegration lines as accurate though, but I think they are on to something - like a first step to something accurate, but not *it*. I find it laughable that you would underestimate my intelligence to the point of suggesting you know what I cognitively choose to see in the world and I can't, just because I disagree with parts of your theories. Any chances you are wrong on that? Or are you delusional by your own definition? Because the way I see it, people that tend to follow systems as wholes, not breaking them down and analysing them critically, will still do that if they follow whatever theory which by default can be wrong. They won't be more of free thinkers if they change the cult they follow, because they will still swollow it entirely. So I don't see how someone that follows Riso religiously is more of a sheep than someone that follows your theories just as religiously, and I don't see why you are a more independant thinker totally dismissing Riso than me, since I prefer to put *every* theory possible under the microscope, break them down and accept/dismiss the different parts of them seperately.

[floyd]

/Personally, I find the wing theory valid because I see that it applies (in my perspective anyway). /

on every single type? you have 27+ internal references (hopefully hundreds more) that all fit the wing system?

have you ever had a car or been exposed to an idea, and suddenly your awareness is heightened to that thing you are familiar with. you notice far more cars on the road like your car, then you previously would have. yet the car is no more frequent than before. in the same way you can 'selectively' see all the elements in your reality that fit riso's ideas, at a far higher level than they really exist compared to the sea of other elements which would disprove riso's ideas. this is why you have to be objective/scientific and not rely solely on your perspective. there was a link here posted on visual illusions. humans all suffer cognitive illusions and delusions too, only by accumulating data from multiple perspectives can you limit this problem.

/I don't see the intergration/disintegration lines as accurate though, but I think they are on to something - like a first step to something accurate, but not *it*./

well then you don't qualify as a buy into everything system head... but the answer above suggests difficulty disposing even a part you don't buy into.

/I find it laughable that you would underestimate my intelligence to the point of suggesting you know what I cognitively choose to see in the world and I can't, just because I disagree with parts of your theories. /

certain patterns predominate in humans (like buying into entire systems instead of selecting parts due to the inability to cognitively deconstruct), are you not human?

/ Any chances you are wrong on that? /

i said it's remotely possible all riso ideas are accurate... you have not admitted the likely hood that many parts of the riso system are innaccurate based on odds alone. show me a non scientifically produced complex map or system which has much accuracy in the history of humanity?

/So I don't see how someone that follows Riso religiously is more of a sheep than someone that follows your theories just as religiously, and I don't see why you are a more independant thinker totally dismissing Riso than me, since I prefer to put *every* theory possible under the microscope, break them down and accept/dismiss the different parts of them seperately./

my version of the enneagram preserves the consistent empirically provable themes across all authors, has far less elements, is empirically derived - those elements alone make it more likely to be a more accurate system. it's based on putting things under an empirical/statistical microscope (not my single one perspective personal microscope which you seem to think is sufficient to validate strong opinions). i have healthy self doubt... you don't seem to. nonetheless, someone that believes 100% of what i say is probably a system head too. but in so far as i encourage cut and paste thinking, challenging ideas, empiricism, and am willing to change my ideas based on the data whereas riso packages things more like spiritual truths and is financially ill disposed to discard parts of his product (even if he discovered he was wrong)... i think system heads will be more attracted to / taken by riso.

i don't totally dismiss riso, just wings, integration lines, health levels, and the accuracy of some of the type descriptions.

[Vagabond]

Jesus Christ, listen to yourself. You accept some parts of theories because you find them valid. So far so good. I do the same, only with different parts, and yet I have difficulty disposing a system I don't buy into, lol. So basically you are dismissing my critical ability as wrong, because I find valid different parts of theories than you do. Like I said, I do accept/dismiss different parts of *different* theories, the wings still seem valid. I don't have a problem with you not seeing them as valid, maybe you are right, maybe not; I have a problem with you judging my mental capacity because I have reached different conclusions than you have. You assume your conclusions are valid, so everyone else's are not. Why isn't that delusional..?

I have evidence that show the wing system as accurate, and I have yet to see evidence for the opposite. Accepting that it is inaccurate because you have that opinion, would be the same as accepting the Riso theory because Riso said so. Gee well, I trust my critical judgement more than yours, if that's okay with you.

/certain patterns predominate in humans (like buying into entire systems instead of selecting parts due to the inability to cognitively deconstruct), are you not human?/
Sure... are *you* not human..?

/i said it's remotely possible all riso ideas are accurate... you have not admitted the likely hood that many parts of the riso system are innaccurate based on odds alone. show me a non scientifically produced complex map or system which has much accuracy in the history of humanity?/
Okay, I thought that goes without saying that every system humanly constructed, based on the odds, will have flaws and inaccuracies. So..? Did I ever say I accept any system as a whole? I thought I keep saying the opposite. So the thing is, do you dismiss a system as a whole because it has flaws or do you choose between specific elements? You just dismiss wings [etc] because to your best jugement they are not accurate. To my best jugement, wings are accurate. Integration lines are not, but they have the general idea that we are influenced by more than our type/wings, probably based on a pattern of similarity. I considered it a valid conclusion when you put it in your system, still I don't agree with the whole of it. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe you are. So what's the problem there?

/i have healthy self doubt... you don't seem to./
It is good to know you have healthy self doubt, the problem then seems to be that you don't communicate it very clearly and it doesn't show. As for me, I told you before, you don't know one thing about me, so you are shooting in blind. You can continue to think anything that makes you comfortable though.

[floyd]

so you think there are more 9w8s than 9w2, 9w3, 9w4, 9w5, 9w6, etc.? i don't doubt there are 9w8s and probably the 9s that are drawn to the riso enneagram are more likely to fit 9w1 or 9w8... but in the general population the idea that one or eight behavior (or behavioral influence/motivation) is more common in nines does not fit my research or assumptions you can make from published research.

/i trust my critical judgement more than yours, if that's okay with you./

the critical judgement of anyone who relies on a wider range of data likely has an edge on you. i don't think you grasp the subjectivity of the pool you wade in, i don't see that you have made any effort to increase your objectivity (you seem to not understand the possibility of individual delusion), and that is why i question your conclusions. your efforts to point out that you don't buy 'all' riso's ideas and you indeed critically analyze all aspects seem less than compelling. in any disagreement odds are one person has more knowledge and is more likely to be more accurate... you seem to be presenting the notion that it's more often a toss up. i have a wider pool of info than you and spend more time analyzing it, i doubt you more because you have a smaller pool and don't have any skepticism for the one person perspective (which is basically the foundation of science).

i know you, to some extent, by your words and expressed beliefs.

[coffeezombie]

i don't see that you have made any effort to increase your objectivity (you seem to not understand the possibility of individual delusion), and that is why i question your conclusions. i have a wider pool of info than you and spend more time analyzing it, i doubt you more because you have a smaller pool and don't have any skepticism for the one person perspective (which is basically the foundation of science).


You mean that we should all objectively analyze the Enneagram with poorly constructed tests like you do?

[Vagabond]

i don't think you grasp the subjectivity of the pool you wade in, i don't see that you have made any effort to increase your objectivity (you seem to not understand the possibility of individual delusion), and that is why i question your conclusions. your efforts to point out that you don't buy 'all' riso's ideas and you indeed critically analyze all aspects seem less than compelling. in any disagreement odds are one person has more knowledge and is more likely to be more accurate... you seem to be presenting the notion that it's more often a toss up. i have a wider pool of info than you and spend more time analyzing it, i doubt you more because you have a smaller pool and don't have any skepticism for the one person perspective (which is basically the foundation of science).

i know you, to some extent, by your words and expressed beliefs. Apparently heated arguments cause personal issues for you, although not for me. Like I said, you may continue to believe whatever you want about me. People that are so afraid to admit ignorance on something so obvious as how the mind of someone they don't know functions, are apparently a loss of time to debate with.

[MacGuffin]

Dammit, quote button floyd!

[floyd]

so vagabond i don't know you to some extent? you clearly seem stuck in your subjective pit pleading "you can't understand how my mind works" that's a typical response of a subjective cave dweller. i don't understand you or anyone else entirely... hence the words i know you 'to some extent'. but yes i could even be wrong there, where do you admit you could be wrong about your enneagram views. and you are way more sensitive than you admit, your last few posts seem to be operating from there. i am willing to admit that all my ideas could be wrong, you don't seem to willing to entertain the notion that you are wrong... you just want to pull a 'you don't understand how my mind works'... i wonder if you know how your mind works? if you did you could probably construct your own personality system. anyone who really understood themself could probably understand others... most people just think they understand themselves.

----------------------------------------------------

cz meanspiriteness correlates with...

instability
dominance
egocentricism
hedonism
materialism
conflict seeking
dominance
histrionicism
paranoia
vanity

which / how many of those do you relate to?

[floyd]

Dammit, quote button floyd!

noted

[Vagabond]

so vagabond i don't know you to some extent? you clearly seem stuck in your subjective pit pleading "you can't understand how my mind works" that's a typical response of a subjective cave dweller. i don't understand you or anyone else entirely... hence the words i know you 'to some extent'. but yes i could even be wrong there, where do you admit you could be wrong about your enneagram views. and you are way more sensitive than you admit, your last few posts seem to be operating from there. i am willing to admit that all my ideas could be wrong, you don't seem to willing to entertain the notion that you are wrong... you just want to pull a 'you don't understand how my mind works'... i wonder if you know how your mind works? if you did you could probably construct your own personality system. anyone who really understood themself could probably understand others... most people just think they understand themselves. I don't know exactly what your problem is, but last time I say this because it does start to irritate me now... I said one times too many that I might be wrong and you might be right, and vice versa. Read before you comment next time. As to whether you know how my mind works, you don't, which is obvious by what your perceptions on me seem to be. I could bother to prove them wrong if I cared, but I don't. So keep at it, it is obvious it makes you happier. I am not sensitive in the way you mean it, I am annoyed right now though. I do have this bad habit of being annoyed when someone turns a theoretical argument into personal namecalling, so if that's what you meant yeah, I am sensitive to that. You know what makes me laugh, you seem to know exactly whether I have a personal system by which I rate/type/understand people... gee you seem to know it all, don't you.

cz meanspiriteness correlates with...

instability
dominance
egocentricism
hedonism
materialism
conflict seeking
dominance
histrionicism
paranoia
vanity

which / how many of those do you relate to? If that was a question to me, I would suggest you start considering that your personal opinions are not universal laws and start presenting them as the personal subjective opinions that they trully are.

[floyd]

it wasn't a question to you... i don't find you mean spirited... i find you a little stubborn, you seem to overrate the value/accuracy of your opinion (thinking this is about my personal speculation vs. yours, my personal speculation is not enough to mean anything, nor is yours). you say you admit 'fallibility' (and you do, but only slightly it seems, and more on the details than the whole system) anyway, you seem to stress more that i don't know how your mind works... look, i am more curious about the phenemona of people assuming entire systems as far as this thread goes (or alternately seeing some people provide some valid evidence on why the many riso facets are actually true).

feel free to examine the published research and you will find (more often) that meanspirititedness correlates to the aforementioned. if i have an untested opinion... i will state it as an unproven opinion, speculation. the above is not speculation.

[Serotonin]

personality just might one day be measurable as our "chemical makeup" :)

Time will tell. How I wish I could live long enough to see the unfurling of research in that area.

But at the moment it is in the same scientific realm of intelligent life on other planets. Plausible, but god knows how we'll be able to find out.

I think it would be quite difficult to quantify environmental imprinting on behaviour through brain activity, for example. Woe betide me that I'm only interested in the outcomes of science, not the technique.

[tragula]

Brain Scans.

They are making rather spectacular advances.

[MaroonBells]

Time will tell. How I wish I could live long enough to see the unfurling of research in that area.

But at the moment it is in the same scientific realm of intelligent life on other planets. Plausible, but god knows how we'll be able to find out.

I think it would be quite difficult to quantify environmental imprinting on behaviour through brain activity, for example. Woe betide me that I'm only interested in the outcomes of science, not the technique.

Sero, I am truly dedicated to be part of this process, even if I can just provide some direction to this effort.

[Slider]

Most people who believe the Enneagram works do so because it corresponds with what they have observed personally.

heh, no, cz. surely you know that most who believe that the enneagram works do so because the enneagram works for them.

[coffeezombie]

heh, no, cz. surely you know that most who believe that the enneagram works do so because the enneagram works for them.

Sure, that's how they get started being interested in it but they *really* start getting into it when they notice the patterns in others as well.

[Slider]

So I'd say that's a pretty big river to cross . . . you either see yourself as a box or you don't.

[Vagabond]

So I'd say that's a pretty big river to cross . . . you either see yourself as a box or you don't. You don't only have the choice to either "fit the box" or dismiss it entirely, the way I see it.

[Slider]

You don't only have the choice to either "fit the box" or dismiss it entirely, the way I see it.


of course not, other people fit into boxes quite easily; just not me.

[floyd]

of course not, other people fit into boxes quite easily; just not me.

that's not what the 'crazy box' told me.

[Slider]

I seem to be unfamiliar with the "crazy box". I assume it's in quotations for a reason.

[floyd]

for emphasis

[Slider]

for emphasis

that's great.