Waterhouse

[tragula]

I recently discovered this artist... What do people think of his work?

http://chem.csustan.edu/JTB/FINE-ART/historic/HISTORIC/ART-SRC/Waterhouse-lady-Shalot2.jpg

More:

http://chem.csustan.edu/JTB/FINE-ART/historic/historic-thm-index-VZ.htm

[CoHo]

Meh, not my type

[Sally]

Pretty. But all his chicks look the same, and all his paintings have the same tone. That Victorian fetish for martyrdom.

I recommend reading Idols of Perversity, which is about the depiction of women in Victorian art, because Victorians are fucked up, and Victorian assumptions still bear a lot of weight.

I prefer Burne-Jones, but that could be because he painted nobly martyred males, and I go for chicks with backbone.

This website has more post-romantic art, but it is vastly awesome. (http://beautyandruin.com/findesiecle/) The illustrators especially. ...But yeah. More on the decadent end of the spectrum...

[TPol]

I like Waterhouse okay -- mostly the grayscales (like below). I like Burne-Jones a lot better, too. There are a lot of pre-raphaelite paintings that are awesome. Thanks for the link, Sally. Nice site. Another of my favorite sites for gawking at artwork is http://www.artrenewal.org/
http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/waterhouse6.jpg

[Sally]

Ahh one of the first pics on the site is William Bouguereau! So pretty and pornographic. :) And the site's images have such beautiful color! It reminds me of a painting of Ophelia I saw in a museum. I'd seen photographs of it and wasn't paricularly impressed, but in reality... The colors were so... vivid. They were like silken sunlight. It was like looking at a completely different painting.

It was this one (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=5521).

[Sally]

"“Oppressors Accuse their Victims of Oppression”
Modernist Tactic Exposed

"I would prefer there was no art, and no great paintings anywhere in the world, than that the freedoms and liberties that we hold so dear would be lost." (ARC Chairman, Fred Ross)"

This is the best website ever.

[TPol]

I know! I just love that site! The painting you linked to, Sally...I bet that is wonderful in person. Kind of hard to get the same effect online, as you say. However, I can imagine the contrasts make it extraordinary.

[AcidGoethe]

His photograph has got unrealistic colors

[tragula]

Pretty. But all his chicks look the same, and all his paintings have the same tone. That Victorian fetish for martyrdom.

I recommend reading Idols of Perversity, which is about the depiction of women in Victorian art, because Victorians are fucked up, and Victorian assumptions still bear a lot of weight.


Thanks for the good links guys.
:)

As to this whole Idols of Perversity thing, well, judging from the book description on amazon--Yikes!

I don't think there has been a thread yet on Victorian Values (Unless this is it?) But I think (and I mean this in the most pleasant conversational unprovcative way possible) there is a big knee jerk reaction from many educated women against portraying classically feminine women. Authors of books like the above seem to be reading deep social and political motivation into things that I'm pretty sure were never intended by the artists...

Men have always been fascinated and fearful about female sexuality. But surely not for political reasons. :whistle

I think that the critical question, cutting through all the paranoid male conspiracy nonsense, is whether the classic female archetype has inherent vulnerable and perhaps even submissive qualities....

Damn. There I go again being controversial! Please don't kill me. I like you guys, and I deserve mercy. :ph34r:

[Claverhouse]

I like Waterhouse, and think sociological criticism of art is as valuable as a knowledge of the chemical properties of dentine when a Tiger is about to bite you. Art is Art. Anyway I dislike the depictions of women with backbones as much as I would the originals.


Still, here are a few more sites:

Victorian Art in Britain (http://www.victorianartinbritain.co.uk/about.htm) A quietly modest site.

Artcyclopaedia (http://www.artcyclopedia.com/)

Elisabeth Vigee le Brun (http://www.batguano.com/vigee.html) Favourite of the French Court

Strom: Art of the West (http://www.revilo-oliver.com/Kevin-Strom-personal/Art/artofthewest_.htm) Thanks to mgbradsh introducing me to Kevin Strom's site, an apparently noted white racialist nut, I found this: still, for those who just want the art this even has the great John William Godward ( who gassed himself from a combination of poverty and the fact that the inferior work of the wretched buffoon Picasso was now the vogue ) --- I've got a large unframed print by him, although I prefer blondes: as does Mr. Strom presumably.

Howard David Johnson (http://www.howarddavidjohnson.com/) a modern

Valery Kosorukov (http://www.kosorukov.com/) a modern


Burne-Jones leaves me cold. The famous Macdonald sisters may have been from a Jacobite background, but their progeny, no matter what their individual genius --- Burne-Jones, Kipling, Baldwin --- were deeply depressing half the time. Probably due to being so intensely English...



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Sally]

I would love a discussion on Victorians! ...Well... Maybe not... It would probably get out of hand rather quickly, and I'm sure the issues have more or less been addressed, separately, elsewhere in the forum.

The thing that gets me about Victorians is that the neuroses are still here. The obsession with sexuality - phobia and counterphobia, gender roles, consumerism, middle class status... And the thing about artistic intention is that it isn't - what's so much more fascinating are the subconscious assumptions. Idols of Perversity takes a one-sided view, but I think it's good to see that one side. I think that that's the best thing that feminism does. It in no way accounts for everything, but what it does an excellent job at is drawing attention to assumptions you didn't even know existed.

I love Victorians, because I can relate to how messed up in the head they are. Just read some of their children's literature! And people give Freud a lot of flack, but when you look what he was working with... It's no coincidence that the psychoanalytical zeitgeist came about when it did and still has the relevance it does today.

Anyway. Yay for subconscious racist sexist headcases, because that's what all of us are, to one degree or another, to some conscious state or another, because the very act of experiencing the world is to classify and draw assumptions.

((Damn non-html tags. Damn them to hell.))

[Sally]

I know! I just love that site! The painting you linked to, Sally...I bet that is wonderful in person. Kind of hard to get the same effect online, as you say. However, I can imagine the contrasts make it extraordinary.

Yeah the jpeg is much more grainy and washed out than the real thing. ...I might be exaggerating it in my mind, but the sunset and her hair... It was like real light. It was astonishing.

[Claverhouse]

I just like the pretty pictures.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[TPol]

Claverhouse, thanks for all the neat links. with "pretty pictures." I love the Strom:Art of the West site. Lots of beautiful work there by my favorites. I'm fond of Alma Tadema and Godward...oh and Bourgeois and.... Howard David Johnson has some new stuff since last I visited his site, so it was good to go back there.

[tragula]

The thing that gets me about Victorians is that the neuroses are still here. The obsession with sexuality - phobia and counterphobia, gender roles, consumerism, middle class status... And the thing about artistic intention is that it isn't - what's so much more fascinating are the subconscious assumptions. Idols of Perversity takes a one-sided view, but I think it's good to see that one side. I think that that's the best thing that feminism does. It in no way accounts for everything, but what it does an excellent job at is drawing attention to assumptions you didn't even know existed.

Anyway. Yay for subconscious racist sexist headcases, because that's what all of us are, to one degree or another, to some conscious state or another, because the very act of experiencing the world is to classify and draw assumptions.

((Damn non-html tags. Damn them to hell.))

Hmm. It's late and I'm not thinking straight but--who's gonna tell--might as well jot down a few stray thoughts. I know nothing about Victorians, really, and am not out to defend their straight laced values per se... (although I could make a strong argument in favor of repressed sexuality. It's nice to have some taboos to break.)

I suppose that the idea I have is simply that some assumptions are better than others. If you believe that things have "essences" then assumptions you have about cats (furry) or plants (green), whether they are formed subconsciously or not, can be quite valid.

I would also like to say that I have nothing against strong portrayals of women in art either. I think a picture of a more Amazonian type can be equally attractive, if it accurately reflects the true nature of the subject.

On a separate note, I didn't really care at all for Burne Jones either....

[Dunearhp]

I would also like to say that I have nothing against strong portrayals of women in art either. I think a picture of a more Amazonian type can be equally attractive, if it accurately reflects the true nature of the subject.

Browsing the site Sally linked to I found a Modern Amazon (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=19526). I find it to be just as striking as any of the other entries in the Competition (http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2005/Salon/winners1.asp) it was entered in. Although it may be taking photorealism to the extreme, the painter must be a savant.

It seemed to be one of the few woman of that archetype on the page however, which is somewhat telling.

[tragula]

Interesting picture. Seems a little forced... Not a natural pose.

Maybe I don't really know what the heck I'm saying with the whole essences and archetype idea...

I mean everyone has different aspects to themselves, including a feminine and a masculine side. Perhaps the idea of yin yang is the best one for understanding masculinity and femininity.

So, if a portrait of a man or a woman has a particular aggressive or passive slant to it, then it should correspond with the expression and body language of the model/subject in order to be believable.

And generally speaking there is something about the male physique and expression that lends itself more naturally to more powerful and aggressive poses.

Ok. I still don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. Something to think about. Good.

[Claverhouse]

Another site, found when looking for this, Sara Bernhardt as the Queen in Ruy Blas by Georges Clairin, which I saw on a book-cover this afternoon:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/26030957.jpg

copyright Lessing Archive

[ Larger version --- better colours: Lessing Sara (http://www.lessing-photo.com/slideshow.asp?sid=S1BM12DF6W&i=&qid=Q1LZ1BLP0B&cr=1&lang=E&size=2&sort=&mode=&d=3&p=1) ]

The site, which did not have the painting, but had other Victorian stuff is Art Magick (http://www.artmagick.com).


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Star Cannon]

Nice.