exploring the afterlife

[file cabinet]

while I don't believe in an afterlife such as heaven.. but I am curious what happens after life. for the moment I believe that I would cease to exist... I wonder what that feels like

[garak]

I'd assume it feels like nothing. Like when you fall asleep -- you don't 'know' that you ever did fall asleep until you wake back up. There's just nothing. When you die, you don't wake up. (and for the purposes of this discussion, assume you didn't have any dreams that night)

[crofbe]

Yeah, it kind of sucks.

[cathmc]

I mentioned this in another thread somewhere about fears...the idea of just not existing anymore is absolutely terrifying to me. I get a pit in my stomach just thinking about it. On the other hand the thought of existing eternally - whatever the afterlife was all about - is incomprehensible. Reincarnation doesn't appeal to me much either...

[AcidGoethe]

but I am curious what happens after life. for the moment I believe that I would cease to exist...

I would tend to agree with that

[knome]

Does anyone else ever get that odd sensation of cesation of being when contemplating nonexistance. That existance is an illusion as likely to have a stage magician pulling the strings as it is to have nothing behind the curtain but a godless void that would stretch out infinately, if only distance weren't part of the illusion.

I can bring myself to the very edge of truly imagining existance sans moi, but as I approach it, it seems some animal fright rears inside me, something telling me that the paths of mind I so blindly analyse are inherently dangerous.

That to do so is to sit on the very edge of oblivion and peer in.

When you stare into an abyss, the abyss stares also into you. Friedrich Nietzsche

[Claverhouse]

I mentioned this in another thread somewhere about fears...the idea of just not existing anymore is absolutely terrifying to me. I get a pit in my stomach just thinking about it. On the other hand the thought of existing eternally - whatever the afterlife was all about - is incomprehensible. Reincarnation doesn't appeal to me much either...
I can absolutely agree with the first; added to which it makes every action or thought valueless, even if the human race or the world or whatever continued on for x million years. And reincarnation, no thanks. But I should suppose that in eternity there is no concept of time as we think it: and we might go through different unimaginable stages of continually existing.

Apart from my belief in God, I have absolute faith in an individual conscious afterlife. ( Additionally, I was partly raised with spiritualism for a while, although I gave up on it myself. Still, I certainly saw people get messages that couldn't be explained by the usual debunking methods: always supposing that the people receiving them weren't absolute liars, which is very doubtful since spiritualism is much akin to nonconformist protestantism like methodists and quakers: you might not care for them, but they generally avoid outright falsehood.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[J.L. des Alpins]

while I don't believe in an afterlife such as heaven.. but I am curious what happens after life. for the moment I believe that I would cease to exist... I wonder what that feels likeHere is an existentialist view: In the afterlife, you are exactly what you are and you are nothing of what you are not. You are a complete block of existence, nothing more, nothing less, and you never change a bit, you remain exactly as you are forever. You cannot change anything of your existence because your consciousness is gone.

While you exists, you are constantly changing. This is because you are a totally free and conscious being. You can make any decision whatsoever among the choices you have available at any time. You make choices at every single moment. Everything is a choice: typing on the keyboard, drinking a glass of water, feeling angry at something, masturbating, hating someone, sitting on a toilet to poo, telling a lie. Every choice you make becomes part of you, is added to your existence.

The trouble is, there is absolutely no way for you NOT to make a choice while you are conscious. You have to choose something all the time, even choosing not to make a choice is making a choice. And there are times when being forced to make a choice becomes stressful. This can even lead to nausea (defined as a state of revulsion accompanying the frightening awareness of one's inescapable freedom as an individual human self).

When your consciousness extinguishes for good, then you are at the point where you have made all the choices you possibly could. You are done with making choices. You have become exactly what you are and will never change again.

What I think the afterlife feels like? It must feel like total peace, complete relief, finally not having to make choices; being free of radical freedom. It sounds like such a wonderful state of restfulness. I hope that this is the way it turns out to be.

JL

[Winterpark]

...the idea of just not existing anymore is absolutely terrifying to me. I get a pit in my stomach just thinking about it.

I have felt that way since I was 3 or 4 years old. Whenever I started thinkig about it, I got this pain in my stomack and a feeling that nothing else could provoke. It also made me feel confused about life 's meaning and value. Those were one of the most hurtfull moments, when I just wanted to squeeze in my mother's bosom and stay there. That's why I have now avoided thinking about this. It is something I cannot think out so I don't go there.

btw, that's a very interesting theory JL. But I don't think afterlife feels like anything at all. (But maybe theoretically it does.)

[Miss Anthropic]

It really doesn't matter though, does it? If when you die you're dead, you'll never know any better. If you are reincarnated you'll end up in a different life trying to improve the things you fuck-up in this life so it won't be any better than now, and then you'll probably go throught the next life thinking that when you die you're dead and maybe be wrong. Again. Sounds rather like purgatory, a whole other option.

[pillow]

I dont know, I have been having out of body experiences since I was a teenager and I believe when we die, we just leave our body behind and continue to exist with the other body. Sometimes the other world feels more real than this one and this world seems like a dream. I sugest to anyone interested in afterlife to conduct experiments with selfhypnosis, meditation and alpha states of mind.

[Architectonic]

I'd assume it feels like nothing. Like when you fall asleep -- you don't 'know' that you ever did fall asleep until you wake back up. There's just nothing. When you die, you don't wake up. (and for the purposes of this discussion, assume you didn't have any dreams that night)

Yes, death is not painful - one of the aspects of death is an absence of pain.

I would love to be 'practically immortal' (meaning a potentially very long lifespan) but I do not fear death at all.

I do not believe in afterlife (at this stage ;) ). But I do not see why a personal afterlife is necessary. As others have said, your being may be mortal, but your actions are immortal.

In my opinion, a number of the ideas about afterlife happen to be somewhat selfish - if you do wrong, you are punished, but if you do good you are rewarded. (and in some cases it may be extended to your family/friends etc) It sounds somewhat self-centred to me.

But, yet afterlife is a very real concept - after your life ends, things go on. Your afterlife is embodied in your actions and influence - your children, the next generations.

[Pierce]

I think of "life" as the brief tenure we spend in the space-time continum, that is the 3rd and 4th dimensions. The term "death" is a bit confusing because we tend to think of it exclusively in terms of a biological fact (the cesseation of bodily funcitons), when it really may actually be another dimension of existence. When we leave the space-time continum, it may be that we find ourselves in a lower dimension. Having lost access to the physical world, we live in a 2D existence of incorporeal shapes and shadows -- it's really an existence that has been described as "ghostly" for ages. What such an existence might entail is interesting and can be probed to great depth with thought and research. If there is a 2D realm (Death or Hades), why not 1D (Hell)? and even zero D (the Abyss). Can we not imagine such an existence? And why must we descend to lower dimensions? Why not ascend to higher dimenisons when we pass from this "life"?

We are given four views of afterlife: nothingness, hell, more of the same (reincarnation), or heaven. Whether it is instinctual or spiritual, we all seem to have an awareness and loathing of the abyss and it takes considerable mental effort to dismiss it (at least when you confront it). Hell should have no appeal to the living, yet through a perverse attraction to morbidity (or perhaps a warped perception of what it would actually be), many do. Most people, religious or not, have such pedantic notions of what Hell, as a dimension of existence, would be, they amaze me with their ignorance and arrogance. But, the same is true of "heaven" -- such silly notions pass as "religion" and are cavalierly dismissed as if there is nothing more to consider.

The passing from one dimension to the next is of utmost importance to us, though we usually speak of it as going to heaven, hell or oblivion (the reincarnationists blithely carry on, supposing that karma will have its way). I view our present state as kind of crucible, a furnace of affliction where our character is shaped and forged, not for temporal purposes but eternal. We choose the dimension we enter beyond this half-baked continum, and I believe we get glimpses of our future throughout our lives. Indeed, if Hell, Death and the Abyss are dimensions of existence, then they are inside us not below us. And we should should seek to bring Heaven inside us too.

[joft]

Does anyone else ever get that odd sensation of cesation of being when contemplating nonexistance. That existance is an illusion as likely to have a stage magician pulling the strings as it is to have nothing behind the curtain but a godless void that would stretch out infinately, if only distance weren't part of the illusion.

I can bring myself to the very edge of truly imagining existance sans moi, but as I approach it, it seems some animal fright rears inside me, something telling me that the paths of mind I so blindly analyse are inherently dangerous.

That to do so is to sit on the very edge of oblivion and peer in.

When you stare into an abyss, the abyss stares also into you. Friedrich Nietzsche First paragraph, absolutely. Second paragraph, maybe I'm stupid, but my curiosity wins over my fear, so here I am in the abyss, and successfully not committing suicide. It's really quite comfortable in the abyss actually, of course, you know that it is an illusion, but it is a comfortable illusion, and you also realize that everyone else is in the abyss too but just keeping their eyes shut tightly and trying to ignore it. Don't worry, you're not on the edge of oblivion, you're in it, we all are.

[joft]

... and successfully not committing suicide.This was an attempt at humor, by the way (but it is also very serious)

[Lee]

while I don't believe in an afterlife such as heaven.. but I am curious what happens after life. for the moment I believe that I would cease to exist... I wonder what that feels like
What it feels like to no longer exist? but feeling requires existence, so you would feel nothing, that is 'nothing' in the very strictest sense of the word.

[Lee]

I mentioned this in another thread somewhere about fears...the idea of just not existing anymore is absolutely terrifying to me. I get a pit in my stomach just thinking about it. On the other hand the thought of existing eternally - whatever the afterlife was all about - is incomprehensible. Reincarnation doesn't appeal to me much either...If not existing is that terrifying to you then your lucky that you won't care once (if) it happens.

An afterlife is incomprehensible? it's also impossible to dismiss or disprove, of course its nature is complete speculation because of that, the only thing that it would have to be is an enviroment that can support human thought, because an afterlife could not change us too much, otherwise we would not be us anymore and we would be simply talking about another reality.

Reincarnation does not appeal? if you mean scientifically I agree, unless consciousness can be proven to have a quality that defies our understanding of physics, which I doubt it does.

[Lee]

contemplating nonexistance.Not possible.

[indie]

I imagine it like. . . the moment after I die, after my heart stops beating, my brain (or heart, if my brain goes first) will have a short period of time to comprehend what has happened. What is "comprehended" about the experience itself is impossible to fathom. But the energy created (electrical impulses in the brain, energy of a beating heart) *is* energy/matter, which is no longer being consumed by or confined to my body. That energy and that minute amount of "me" will still exist. . . in some manner that has not been predetermined by the laws of humankind and humankind's perceptions.

Nature is too smart to waste the effort expended in learning and of existance. Life changes and evolves for a reason. . . not "evolves" in the strict darwinian sense, but changes. . . .

Oh, and I reserve the right to change my mind about this theory at any time.

[Lee]

Here is an existentialist view: In the afterlife, you are exactly what you are and you are nothing of what you are not. You are a complete block of existence, nothing more, nothing less, and you never change a bit, you remain exactly as you are forever. You cannot change anything of your existence because your consciousness is gone.It would suck to die in pain then, but then you wouldn't be able to feel bitter about it unless you were so at the time of death. But aren't we more or less dead if we are forever stuck how we died? aren't we defined by change, aren't the processes that change us fundamental to the definition and existence of life?



What I think the afterlife feels like? It must feel like total peace, complete relief, finally not having to make choices; being free of radical freedom. It sounds like such a wonderful state of restfulness. I hope that this is the way it turns out to be.

JLBut aren't the choices we make what defines us as people? a total asence of choice means we are everything and nothing, we are no longer ourselves... it may as well not be an after life.

[Lee]

I dont know, I have been having out of body experiences since I was a teenager and I believe when we die, we just leave our body behind and continue to exist with the other body. Sometimes the other world feels more real than this one and this world seems like a dream. I sugest to anyone interested in afterlife to conduct experiments with selfhypnosis, meditation and alpha states of mind.Smoke and mirrors.

[Lee]

In my opinion, a number of the ideas about afterlife happen to be somewhat selfish - if you do wrong, you are punished, but if you do good you are rewarded. (and in some cases it may be extended to your family/friends etc) It sounds somewhat self-centred to me.Yeah, most belief and concepts of the afterlife are just ways of getting people to behave properly.


But, yet afterlife is a very real concept - after your life ends, things go on. Your afterlife is embodied in your actions and influence - your children, the next generations.How do you know things go on after your consciousness stops existing? when you stop existing, existence stops existing, because existence is defined by your perception of it. Any drive to help things after your death are just evolutionary imposed feelings that compel us to act out certain behaviours.

[Spartan26]

I find it much easier to picture a hell than a heaven. A place w/out God, hope and love. I think about the times when I feel most alone, discouraged, stipped and spent. In the agony, when it SEEMS like it'll go on forever or I'm destined for doom, I don't KNOW that for certain. Even when the most encouraging words fall from my ears as hollow platitudes, it's not eternal. Hell would be the confirmation that there is none now nor will there ever be any hope.

Since I've basically bet my whole life on this whole Christianity thing, I've tried to look for Biblical clues about what's in store after death. Scant few details. The ones that do pop up are probably more metaphorical, anyway.

I would think "The Lord Prayer" in Matthew 6, I believe, is most telling. You know the "Our Father, who art in heaven..." There's this part, "Thine [God's] will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." I know the prevalent theory is that Christians are these mindless drones, but sometimes I view heaven as the place where my will gets removed. Taking off the snow chains so I can run. Just like a full frontal labotomy, so I could trust God implicitly and receive the benifits thereof. Like Special Olympic athletes of faith. Not think, "Man, it sucks out here! Rainy, course is shot. My shoes are made of plastic and no matter how hard I run the person who stumbles in last is gonna get the same freckin' medal as me!" It's the fighting of God's will now that makes me most miserable. Having no will so I wouldn't miss doing what I want to do would probably be the easiest explanation for me for what heaven would be like.

Of course, if there's some type of orientation/training course for heaven, we'd learn that's exactly what God doesn't want, probably before lunch that first day. I believe there's a place with no pain, no death, no separation, but my mind is too limited to fully conceive it.

[J.L. des Alpins]

[…]when you stop existing, existence stops existing, because existence is defined by your perception of it.That statement may be grossly incorrect [without prejudice toward you]. "Your perception" of your life is the sum of all phenomena you experience (which is one of the basic premises of Hegel's Phenomenology). It also say that the only phenomena you can experience are those that reach your consciousness. This says that you cannot experience new phenomena once your consciousness is gone. But this does not imply in any way that you cease to exist when your consciousness is gone.

This only thing we are sure of is that once your physical body is dead, you cannot experience more phenomena through it. But it says nothing about termination of your existence as a being.


It would suck to die in pain then, but then you wouldn't be able to feel bitter about it unless you were so at the time of death.The contribution of your life on Earth on your existence as a being is the sum of ALL your choices from your first conscious thought to the last one, not just the last one.


But aren't we more or less dead if we are forever stuck how we died?At death, your consciousness extinguishes and your physical body rots, but, once again, this does not imply in any way that you stop existing.


Aren't we defined by change, aren't the processes that change us fundamental to the definition and existence of life? Aren't the choices we make what defines us as people?Sartre named the "processes that change us" during our conscious life on Earth néantisation (translation: act of nihilation). It is only consciousness that can perform nihilation, therefore, yes, accumulation of changes via choices is what defines us as people on Earth. When consciousness is gone, one is not a 'person' anymore. But that does not imply that one ceases to exist altogether. (Granted, it does not imply either that existence must necessarily continues.)


[...] but feeling requires existence […]Precisely. Now, think about it: If it happens that you still exist as some sort of being after your consciousness is gone, then who knows, you as a being may still be able to feel things.

-----

While there are no proofs that existence persists after death on Earth, Sartrian Existentialism, as a complete philosophical system, brings no reasons why existence should evaporate after death. As a philosophy, it offers such a wide range of possibilities that Existentialism became one of the most influential schools of thoughts of the past one hundred years. It cannot just be dismissed as a fad by any serious thinkers.

JL

[Spartan26]

...Indeed, if Hell, Death and the Abyss are dimensions of existence, then they are inside us not below us. And we should should seek to bring Heaven inside us too.
Quite well written, Pierce. Continue your master class training on impressionalism, while I'll head back to the kid's table and grab my crayons.

[Lee]

J.L, good points there, I didn't personally believe in some of what I said, I was just throwing out ideas in response to peoples posts because I was bored, but nice responses.

I do not believe in existence after death, but neither do I disbelieve in it, like the question of the existance of God, it's very nature is unprovable... anything further is pure speculation.

But how do you know that existence isn't of your own creation, how can you know that when you are gone existence doesn't all go with you into nothingness, assuming there is nothing after death then for all practical purposes, the world ends when you do.

[pillow]

Smoke and mirrors.

Maybe, but I prefer to speak on my personal experiences and not to speculate though. Everyone is free to speculate on what the truth might be, truly though, noone knows it. I also dont expect anyone to believe me, you are free to make your own experiments and find out for yourself, what the truth is.

[Avengardh]

It really doesn't matter though, does it? If when you die you're dead, you'll never know any better. If you are reincarnated you'll end up in a different life trying to improve the things you fuck-up in this life so it won't be any better than now, and then you'll probably go throught the next life thinking that when you die you're dead and maybe be wrong. Again. Sounds rather like purgatory, a whole other option.
I actually think it's rather fascinating.

I want to live again, I find it more a reward than a punishment, if we can call it that....I don't much care about all the other stuff, but then again, I am an odd one.

[Architectonic]

How do you know things go on after your consciousness stops existing? when you stop existing, existence stops existing, because existence is defined by your perception of it. Any drive to help things after your death are just evolutionary imposed feelings that compel us to act out certain behaviours.

Existence is not defined by your perception of it. If my consciousness didn't exist, existence would still be here. Yes, this concept is certainly abstract - and this is one of the reasons why we evolved the ability to deal with abstract concepts. But I can easily prove it, *gets out gun*. ;)

Those 'evolutionary imposed feelings' happen to be a part of what defines us. Otherwise, in a universe of arationality, why bother existing at all?

[Pierce]

Quite well written, Pierce. Continue your master class training on impressionalism, while I'll head back to the kid's table and grab my crayons.
Spartan, the Bible paints a richly woven tapestry of life -- past, present and future in many facets. It is loaded with types, metaphors, similes, symbols and allegory. Even the "historic" events fit neatly into grand patterns of symbolic meaning. People who consider the Bible only on its literal merits, whether they be fundamentalists, agnostics or atheists, miss the point entirely.

For a starting place, consider light and darkness. Outer darkenss refers to the Abyss (unforgiveness). Darkness refers to Hell (guilt), Shadow is Death (fear), Dusk is Passion (cravings of the body), Dawn is Reason, Starlight is Faith (intuition), Moonlight is Hope (active expectation), and Sunlight is Love (forgiveness). As in geometry, lower dimensions are completely encompassed by higher. This pattern repeats itself from Genesis through Revelation and in many ways. Understanding the pattern in terms of dimensions of existence and life is, I deem, a worthwhile undertaking.

The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day. Proverbs 4:18

[Spartan26]

People who consider the Bible only on its literal merits, whether they be fundamentalists, agnostics or atheists, miss the point entirely. Agreed. I guess what I was initially referring to was that's there's no syllabus, or conference registration pack that gives us the schedule 'OK, from 8-9:30 is check-in. 10 AM is delegate welcome. 11 AM Tour of the 12 gates, 12-12:30 Lunch with apostles (fish & bread - bring your own basket.) 1-3 Meet the Minor Prophets Series: Amos & Joel... That sort of thing.


For a starting place, consider light and darkness. Outer darkenss refers to the Abyss (unforgiveness). Darkness refers to Hell (guilt), Shadow is Death (fear), Dusk is Passion (cravings of the body), Dawn is Reason, Starlight is Faith (intuition), Moonlight is Hope (active expectation), and Sunlight is Love (forgiveness). As in geometry, lower dimensions are completely encompassed by higher. This pattern repeats itself from Genesis through Revelation and in many ways. Understanding the pattern in terms of dimensions of existence and life is, I deem, a worthwhile undertaking.

The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day. Proverbs 4:18
Wow, you must write some extensive apologetics. A couple of these I've seen or know, rather. In general, would you say that all suffering is (falls under) "cravings of the body"?

I will definitely look more into this. Thanks!

[Pierce]

Wow, you must write some extensive apologetics. A couple of these I've seen or know, rather. In general, would you say that all suffering is (falls under) "cravings of the body"?
Actually, I'm quite INTPish about my quest for spiritual knowledge, and don't publish or really even discuss it much. The roots of suffering, go far deeper than "lusts of the flesh" and suffering is universal in various forms throughout every kind of existence I can imagine. Even God suffers -- especially God suffers.

[SensEye]

If you are reincarnated you'll end up in a different life trying to improve the things you fuck-up in this life so it won't be any better than now, and then you'll probably go throught the next life thinking that when you die you're dead and maybe be wrong. Again. Sounds rather like purgatory, a whole other option.Well if you don't remember any previous lives (I certainly don't) you won't be trying to improve upon things. It's amazing how much of our perception is based on memory. If you don't remember something, it might as well not exist or have ever existed. I can't consider reincarnation purgatory, since if reincarnation is the case, it hasn't bothered me so far in this life, so I doubt it will bother me in the next.

Likewise, non-existence. I have no regrets about the 10-20 billion years or so (what's the current age of the universe estimate these days?) that I wasn't existing for prior to my birth, and I am confident I can deal with any necessary billions of years of non existence after my death. Unawareness is good that way.

I figure there's either non-existence (non-awareness) upon death, in which case I will have no opinion and I am OK with that, or there is some sort of awareness, in which case I will think "cool" (although if I am to be the victim of a wrathful god, I may re-evaluate said coolness).

This is not to say that I don't fear death, though. I certainly do. But it is the missing out on life that I fear, not what comes next. I should have another 40 years or so coming to me, and I want all of them.

[Spartan26]

The roots of suffering, go far deeper than "lusts of the flesh" and suffering is universal in various forms throughout every kind of existence I can imagine. Even God suffers -- especially God suffers.
Very true. Let me rephrase the question. Going by your previous examples of shadow is death, moonlight is hope, etc., what would suffering be? It's too essential to Christianity not to be included. "It is not merely enough to believe but suffer for Christ's sake." (Phil 1:29 para)

What would you say is peace? Or should these be part of my own discovery?

[J.L. des Alpins]

It's amazing how much of our perception is based on memory. If you don't remember something, it might as well not exist or have ever existed.Such a powerful and far-reaching notion. What you say here has troubled philosophers for millennia. I was hoping that nobody would bring it up in this thread. But here we are, you bring it up to the forefront, the ontological problem of "being-in-itself" vs. "memory". (Exchanges with Claverhouse are such innocuous skirmishes in comparison.)

SensEye, if you remember my post above [if you don't, then it probably doesn't exist], we indicate that the relationship between experience and existence is not a two-way arrow. Your experiences may grow your existence, but the extinction of experience does not imply in any way that existence vanishes.

That's where it gets tricky: this says that even if you don't remember something, ontologically, it doesn't say that the 'something' ceases to exist.

Think about it: we have here 25 centuries of thinkers, from Plato to Sartre, none coming up with a single consistent philosophical system that points to the end of existence after the end of consciousness (or memory).

It doesn't mean that if Plato failed, that the INTP-Central members have to necessary fail as well. No great thinkers of mankind's history had access to the Internet—and this forum.

Tell us what brought you to think your notion above? What is it based on? What were your assumptions? Can you expand on your thoughts?

JL

[Pierce]

Very true. Let me rephrase the question. Going by your previous examples of shadow is death, moonlight is hope, etc., what would suffering be? It's too essential to Christianity not to be included. "It is not merely enough to believe but suffer for Christ's sake." (Phil 1:29 para)

What would you say is peace? Or should these be part of my own discovery?
Suffering is not a dimension, but is experienced in all dimensions. Suffering is consequence; in Hell, the pain of guilt and shame (often self inflicted); in Death, the pain of doubt and uncertainty, fear and sorrow; in Space, the fleeting, transitory and unsatisfactory nature of passion; in Time, the inadequacy of reason to grasp that which it seeks; in faith, the impotency of comfort and security; in hope, the terrible responsibility of power; and in Love, letting go of who you love, and letting them choose their way. If I were to choose a point where I thought suffering emanated, I would say the third dimension, right about where Mercy meets Self-Justification (but I wouldn't expect anyone to have the vaguest notion of what I'm talking about here -- which is why I don't discuss it).

Peace, on the other hand is a dimensional concept and it lies in the realm of Hope. If you diagram these concepts they become more clear. Interestingly, if one is caught in the bodage of condemnation (guilt, shame), the remedy is from the corresponding higher dimension of Hope (peace). The captivity of fear is overcome by Faith (intuition). And the excesses of Passion are countered by Reason.

[SensEye]

Such a powerful and far-reaching notion. What you say here has troubled philosophers for millennia. I was hoping that nobody would bring it up in this thread. But here we are, you bring it up to the forefront, the ontological problem of "being-in-itself" vs. "memory". (Exchanges with Claverhouse are such innocuous skirmishes in comparison.)

SensEye, if you remember my post above [if you don't, then it probably doesn't exist], we indicate that the relationship between experience and existence is not a two-way arrow. Your experiences may grow your existence, but the extinction of experience does not imply in any way that existence vanishes
....

Tell us what brought you to think your notion above? What is it based on? What were your assumptions? Can you expand on your thoughts?

JLIn the context of this thread, it was Miss Anthropic's notion that if we are reincarnated we would spend this life trying to improve over past lives in a purgatory like fashion.

I agree with you that simply because one does not remember something, it does not erase the existence of that experience. However, it does greatly affect our perception, so much so, that it has the same effect as if the experience never existed.

Regardless of the 'truth' of the matter of whether I am reincarnated and have past lives, I don't remember them. So whether they existed or not is a moot point from my perspective. As far as I am concerned, they might as well never have never existed. In fact, if someone could prove to me I am reincarnated, but I knew I could not carry the memories of this life over to the next, it would not really change my outlook on death at all.

It is this seemingly profound relationship between memory and awareness that colors my view of eternal consciousness. Since I rarely have memories of my sleep periods (the odd dream notwithstanding) I am convinced I have experienced non awareness. This leads me to conclude that consciousness is simply a biological function of one's mind and memories, when the physical system that supports these functions (the brain) ceases to operate, I can't see how consciousness can continue.