Utopia?

[tragula]

I've always been interested in the idea of the perfect society. It seems like one of those idealistic goals that seems destined to always fail... or is it?

Communism, of course, sounded great in theory. And didn't work. But would it have worked on a much smaller scale? Call it Communitarianism if you like...

Hippie free love communes reputedly don't really work in the long run.

What about the idea that if you eliminate poverty then people will get along. That it is primarily scarcity of resources that causes conflicts.

What about technology? Surveillance cameras could eliminate crime in the 21st century... GM rice could cure starvation. What other ways could technology help bring about peace, love, and happiness.

What about a global government run by a benevolent Emperor? (Don't read anything into that.)

On a more fantastic level, lately I've been thinking that perhaps for me the perfect society might be some sort of primitive world where males hunted for food and competed for the women. And protected them... (don't hurt me.) Probably just a fantasy, and the reality would be much more ugly. But I would feel so alive!

Or how about the male fantasy of a planet full of women and almost no men? Could that be achievable? It would actually seem to please a lot of people... (half joking)

[Sally]

Voluntary Human Extinction

[Star]

This looks kind of neat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocratic_movement a post-capitalist society that rewards progress and efficiency.

But I'm sure someone will tear it to shreds. ;)

[Sally]

This looks kind of neat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocratic_movement a post-capitalist society that rewards progress and efficiency.

But I'm sure someone will tear it to shreds. ;)

That reminds me of Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee - a universe of endless abundance and possibility... and ennui. But I'd go for it.

[Sally]

Come to think of it, the one solitary idea in The Matrix that didn't endlessly annoy me with a sense of "I'd already figured that out by the time I was thirteen, thanks" was that they had tried to create a utopia for the humans... but we wouldn't stand for it.

[Robespierre]

These utopias all have a similar theme: subordination of the individual to the collective. Why do intellectuals tend towards collective solutions so often? Of course, I am stating the obvious when I point out the intellectual's own values will be served as he will be the one making the decisions(see technocracy).

[coffeezombie]

These utopias all have a similar theme: subordination of the individual to the collective. Why do intellectuals tend towards collective solutions so often? Of course, I am stating the obvious when I point out the intellectual's own values will be served as he will be the one making the decisions(see technocracy).

Organizations are more efficient when people cooperate, not when each individual has his or her own goals and competes with others. That's why intellectuals tend towards collective solutions. They want more efficiency.

[tragula]

Hmm. I'd never heard about a technocrazy before. Extremely interesting!

I don't quite understand how they motivate the 5% of the population that does have to work though... Do the masochistic types freely volunteer to run things?

Also, the problem with abundance is reproduction. Given unlimited resources, many people would have unlimited offspring. A technocracy would have to solve that problem...

I like the everyone is equal part. I can just imaging the status freaks becoming introverted and anti-social because no one understands their compulsion to rank people! (ISFJ)

I have only vaguely followed all the libertarian debates around here... I have a libertarian acquaintance. We don't see eye to eye. I think that the fault line on the issue is whether or not one believes people should have the right to have their basic needs met. Libertarians only believe that people should have opportunities, not rights. (I think?) That to me is a misinterpretation of reality, created by the have mores to keep down the have lesses.

[coffeezombie]

I don't think a technocracy could work unless we all have to do absolutely *no* work. I disagree strongly with the huge income gaps that exist, but on the other hand there has to be some reward for doing more work than another person. If we all only have to work ten hours a week, someone will only want to work five and still get paid the same amount for it.

[sandwich]

Technology only introduces new mediums of crime.

Spam, anyone?

[Hypnos]

Organizations are more efficient when people cooperate, not when each individual has his or her own goals and competes with others. [...]
Not in general, and not even most of the time. Shall I list the many tasks that are better done by one person?

Second, individual preferences vary -- is it not possible that a common ground for cooperation might not be found, obviating "efficiency" ?


That's why intellectuals tend towards collective solutions. They want more efficiency.
Often, but not in general.

[Biff_Loman]

On a more fantastic level, lately I've been thinking that perhaps for me the perfect society might be some sort of primitive world where males hunted for food and competed for the women. And protected them... (don't hurt me.) Probably just a fantasy, and the reality would be much more ugly. But I would feel so alive!

LOL - yes, I've often thought this myself. All our instincts are programmed for a hunter-gatherer world, so it stands to reason that we'd be happier that way. However, I have a funny feeling that it's not all peaches and cream anyway.

Besides: in a primitive environment like that, the primary role of males is not to hunt (although they do hunt) but to kill males from other tribes. The only thing that stops the endless pattern of violence (the violence is good from an evolutionary perspective, as it weeds out the weak) is the threat of greater violence from a central authority.

Ideas and concepts fail in the face of violence and wealth. Our own age of enlightenment sprang from the military revolution of the fifteenth century, which demanded that the military class learn the finer points of math in order to use artillery and organize large formations of men (Europeans paid attention to the concept of the "square root" to better make formations of pikemen and arbusquiers). The military revolution, in turn, was created by gunpowder (an imported technology) and Europe's burgeoning iron industry, which was created initially by the demand for medieval arms and armour.

I've got to cut this short; have to leave for work.

[Trolsk]

Active profiling (eugenics or lock-out) is key to utopia. An ideal society has a population that matches a certain profile, which doesn't happen naturally because of biologically coded traits and ever-increasing entropy.

[Robespierre]

Cooperation implies free will, as in freely choosing to cooperate. Otherwise, it has another name, slavery, coercion, complusary labor, etc.

Collective solutions, by definitinon, cannot involve cooperation OR efficiency, but the imposition of the authoritarian will of __________ (the ruler, the people, the congress, whatever you like).

[Lee]

True cooperation only works in species where individual members do not reproduce and so exist only to help the colony or group... like ants and wasps.

Otherwise everybody will use cooperation for their own ends and the problem with cooperation is that it is vunrable to cheaters.

[Robespierre]

Otherwise everybody will use cooperation for their own ends and the problem with cooperation is that it is vunrable to cheaters.

It seems as though cooperation has worked very well, to the extent that it is allowed, in the various markets in the world. Computers are staggeringly cheap when compared to what they cost 20 years ago, and do more than 20 times as much. Markets help to coordinate the activities of widely dispursed groups of innovators, and make cooperation possible.

[Lee]

It seems as though cooperation has worked very well, to the extent that it is allowed, in the various markets in the world. Computers are staggeringly cheap when compared to what they cost 20 years ago, and do more than 20 times as much. Markets help to coordinate the activities of widely dispursed groups of innovators, and make cooperation possible.
Agreed, I did not mean to say tha cooperation is impossible, but rather that idealised perfect forms of cooperation are not practical or likely, because in the end people look out for number 1 first (with possible exception of close family).

[MaroonBells]

Cooperation implies free will, as in freely choosing to cooperate. Otherwise, it has another name, slavery, coercion, complusary labor, etc.

Collective solutions, by definitinon, cannot involve cooperation OR efficiency, but the imposition of the authoritarian will of __________ (the ruler, the people, the congress, whatever you like).

Good stuff, the last point is often overlooked.

[tomorrowteen]

What's perfect for one personality is not perfect for another. There is no utopia but what you make in your own mind, therefore perfect for INTP's.

Michael

[Star]

I've noticed that any person's answer to the question of utopia is more about what that person thinks of human nature than anything else. The question:

Are humans essentially :

a) good
b) evil or
c) neutral?

The people who answer a) favor collectives, those who answer b) favor individualism, and the c) people just want to stick with the status quo.

[tragula]

LOL - yes, I've often thought this myself. All our instincts are programmed for a hunter-gatherer world, so it stands to reason that we'd be happier that way. However, I have a funny feeling that it's not all peaches and cream anyway.

I suppose life would just seem somewhat more intense in an environment like that. Not sure that would translate to actual happiness. Lives would probably be rather brief and uncomfortable too...

I find your take on the killer ape intriguing. Certainly a dark view of human nature.

[Hypnos]

I've noticed that any person's answer to the question of utopia is more about what that person thinks of human nature than anything else. The question:

Are humans essentially :

a) good
b) evil or
c) neutral?

The people who answer a) favor collectives, those who answer b) favor individualism, and the c) people just want to stick with the status quo.
Mmm, stripping this of the moral tone: generally, where is the locus of control (http://www.dushkin.com/connectext/psy/ch11/survey11.mhtml) and what is the comparative strength of self-preservation vs. empathy?

[tragula]

I remembered another version of Utopia that is very appealing to me:

The little seaside village by the sea, with thatched cottages, and neighbors who have known one another their whole lives. Surrounded by an idyllic forest, the inhabitants of the village live off the land, and the sea. In harmony with nature, and with one another.

(You could picture this village in North-west Gaul if you like, but it is really located in a corner of the human soul...)

[Hypnos]

I remembered another version of Utopia that is very appealing to me:
Doesn't a utopia, by definition, have to appeal to everyone? Your vision would bore me to tears, unless you are forgetting to mention other amusements :)

"Idyllic" is more appropriate than "utopian."

[Sally]

I remembered another version of Utopia that is very appealing to me:

The little seaside village by the sea, with thatched cottages, and neighbors who have known one another their whole lives. Surrounded by an idyllic forest, the inhabitants of the village live off the land, and the sea. In harmony with nature, and with one another.

(You could picture this village in North-west Gaul if you like, but it is really located in a corner of the human soul...)

Until you start arguing over fishing rights or a warlike people from a less abundant island comes and wipes you out.

[sandwich]

The little seaside village by the sea, with thatched cottages, and neighbors who have known one another their whole lives.

I live in a place almost like that, except it's in a valley surrounded by apple trees. The main goal of the average high schooler is to get out as soon as they get their diploma.

[Jacque]

Cooperation implies free will, as in freely choosing to cooperate. Otherwise, it has another name, slavery, coercion, complusary labor, etc.

And indoctrination? Free will is easily constructed or construed. Rock always beats scissors.


Collective solutions, by definitinon, cannot involve cooperation OR efficiency, but the imposition of the authoritarian will of __________ (the ruler, the people, the congress, whatever you like).

So authority sets itself against efficiency? Don't all things operate on some level of efficiency, even if it is control? Individual solutions also seem to involve collective thought. Restraint would require an equally powerful show of will.

[Robespierre]

And indoctrination? Free will is easily constructed or construed. Rock always beats scissors.

What of indoctrination?


So authority sets itself against efficiency? Don't all things operate on some level of efficiency, even if it is control?

Government can never add to the supply of wealth, only subtract from it. The more it does, the less is left behind for non-government purposes.


Individual solutions also seem to involve collective thought. Restraint would require an equally powerful show of will.

What collective thought?

I fully support cooperation, I just want to avoid slavery.

[Jacque]

Government can never add to the supply of wealth, only subtract from it. The more it does, the less is left behind for non-government purposes.

What is a government purpose that isn't our purpose?



What collective thought?
I fully support cooperation, I just want to avoid slavery.

Yes, but rules govern cooperation. What institution would you have, but not call government?

[tragula]

I live in a place almost like that, except it's in a valley surrounded by apple trees. The main goal of the average high schooler is to get out as soon as they get their diploma.

Must be the apple trees! You couldn't pay me enough money to live near an apple tree! "jk"

But that is interesting.

I think the media has to have something to do with it. People equate being young and interesting with living in an urban environment.... and it becomes a viscous circle.

Here in NYC, where I live, we have plenty of starry-eyed youngsters arriving by the busload everyday with dreams of being ________. (Fill in the blank: Dancer, singer, actress, fashion designer, photographer, model, etc.)

I really think that the dream they are pursuing is often a bit of an illusion, considering how prohibitively expensive the city is. And I say that being a big dreamer myself...

[Robespierre]

What is a government purpose that isn't our purpose?

Only individuals act. There is no such thing as "our purpose".


Yes, but rules govern cooperation. What institution would you have, but not call government?

I like to use the term "government" for coercive interaction. I am aware that it can be used to refer to anything that "governs" or controls, but such a definition is too broad for our purposes here.