The INTP's Guide to Better Living

[Ptah]

Well, for whatever reason I'm working on a document called "The INTP's Guide to Better Living", to be posted (and probably shredded/flamed) here.

Before I do so, I'd like to solicit input on the categories this essay shall cover (and be broken into).

Presently, I'm considering the following:


Life
Yourself
Family (two senses)
Friends
Love/Relationships
Sex
Education
Society
Occupation/Money
Health
Efficacy
Happiness
Death


The idea being that they are more or less in the order they are encountered (as a concern) in life.

In case it isn't obvious from the title, this work will be "for INTPs, from an INTP".

Thoughts?

[ApeTheDog]

Why?

[Ptah]

Why?

Rather than a category of its own, that's actually an element possibly cross-cutting the essentials of many if not all categories.

Anyhow, to answer the question: because I thought it would be a halfway discussion piece (for better or worse).

[ApeTheDog]

Oh good. I was afraid you were going say: to help other people.

So what can other people do here?

[Ptah]

Oh good. I was afraid you were going say: to help other people.

Would such specific, perhaps perverse philanthropy (hoping to help the typically misanthropic) be so wrong?


So what can other people do here?

Toss in content/categories to cover for now, or wait for the real content to get posted.

Or just protest as usual.

[ApeTheDog]

Would such specific, perhaps perverse philanthropy (hoping to help the typically misanthropic) be so wrong?

Of course not. I would wish you had a better answer to why you were doing this because I would not believe it -- it would sound entirely like a lie.
Not all altruism is a lie, but all lies pretend to be altruism.


Toss in content/categories to cover for now, or wait for the real content to get posted.
Or just protest as usual.

Why not have people suggest categories they can give answers in? Some people here are better at one thing, other at something else. Your guide would benefit from having many authors.

It's still going to be a really ego-heavy thread, what with everybody just blowing their own horn and giving advice about things they maybe don't know anything about... but at least this way we force people to put their cards on the table up front so there is less potential to bluff.

[Ptah]

Why not have people suggest categories they can give answers in? Some people here are better at one thing, other at something else. Your guide would benefit from having many authors.

I couldn't agree more. But someone's gotta get it started, right?


It's still going to be a really ego-heavy thread, what with everybody just blowing their own horn and giving advice about things they maybe don't know anything about... but at least this way we force people to put their cards on the table up front so there is less potential to bluff.

I understand that concern. Fwiw, I tried to get off on the right foot (myself) by naming the thread "The INTP's Guide..." rather then "Ptah's Guide..." (which would be rather a different document indeed).

Ideally, content would be stated in terms of the purported strengths and weaknesses of INTPs as set forth in a/the type profile (that's what I'm aiming for in what I'm drafting presently). Otherwise, whatever works, works.

[composer]

I think its a great idea. I wanted to do something similar but haven't had the time. Let me know if you want any help.

I have a file of articles about INTP types I've been collecting, it's quite large by now.

[Ptah]

I have a file of articles about INTP types I've been collecting, it's quite large by now.

Likewise. As well as such things about the other types. For a while, it was quite an interest of mine.

Anyhow, I'm about as genuinely interested in developing such a "Guide" as purported in the OP as I get about such things. I've already got the "Family" bit drafted. I'll probably post it in chunks and let the fray (or crickets) begin.

[Roger Mexico]

Guess I assumed this to be the primary purpose of the forum back when I first joined.

heheheh

[Madrigal]

What is wrong with you people?

[Ptah]

What is wrong with you people?

We tolerate you.

[Professor Chaos]

I thought this whole forum implicitly served as a guide to better living for the INTP.

[ObtainGnosis]

Seems like a massive undertaking. I feel as though I could go on for hours in that vein on any one of those bullets. I support the effort. It would be very useful if you could make an organized, easy-to-read study. Something akin to reading a book on Enneagram but more expansive. I suggest you synthesize scholarly research in Enneagram, MBTI, and Jungian typology with all of the appropriate and more visceral accounts and discussion you could possibly find on this site. Then you've got something publishable. All of the advice for personal growth I've read in the personality typology literature has been shallow in comparison to the description of behavior, psychology, motivation, etc. of the different types. But I think it would take a very high functioning INTP to write that kind of advice guide and have it be truly useful. And then you get into all kinds of issues about what levels of development and pictures of reality are people willing to accept. I really think it takes a rare kind of attitude to benefit from the wisdom of other thinkers---intellectual prejudices get in the way. It's hard to tell another man or woman the methods of optimization for their quality of life because ultimately you can only point them to the ways of attainment and only by their own effort and investigation will they attain. It's why homework is important in school. While there are universal aspects of human potential and transformation, each must come to an original and subjective relationship to those processes and truths.

[A Schnitzel]

Just remember to listen to Radio Radio everyday and you should be good.

[starjots]

I thought this had been covered before...

Step 1: Idea
Step 2: ????? <---- Fuck this go to step 1
Step 3: Profit

[s0978]

I was recently thinking I had some worthwhile tips for better living. Though I don't know that they're necessarily INTP-centric.

Anyway, the outline would start something like:

I Housework
A Biweekly maid service
B Cocaine

II Relationships
A Separate bathrooms


That's all I got for now.

[rainfall]

Occupation/Money



...Decent starter jobs for introverts...

...Careers for intps...

[gator]

...Decent starter jobs for introverts...

...Careers for intps...

...Networking for introverts

[Ptah]

... wasting no further time on internet forums purportedly of interest or value to INTPs.

[rainfall]

... wasting no further time on internet forums purportedly of interest or value to INTPs.

It is of interest. It's just that people here would not acknowledge it or participate. Not unless some of the legwork is already done, for instance an article on any of your subjects. Then the discussion will start. Otherwise it'll be a thread full of immature people trying to be too cool for school. A discussion on how to make life better for an INTP is sort of like talking about masturbation; secretly everyone does it but no one will come out and talk about.

[gr8ness97]

Under occupation - Find something that will hold your interest, but dont let it take over your life.. I dont know about other INTPs, but the more interesting your career is, the more disconnected you are from other parts of life (family, relationships, etc)

I support you too, OP. Hopefully you will have the drive to finish this.

[composer]

This work really must go forward ...

I'll use this thread to jot down notes. As I've noted elsewhere I've got an INTP son and so have spent some time thinking about how he can have a nice life. So ...

The INTP guide to work/life balance
Work life balance is one of those bullshit terms that the SJ's invented for the corporate world, but its a convenient term I'll hijack here. In the context of the INTP I believe it comes down to the Ti-Ne duality axis. Ti (introverted thinking) is something of a marshall, it tries to impose order and discipline on things. Ne (extroverted intuition) is a playful puppy, it conscripts the 'P' and wants to party on its mission to gather information. A key to better living for the INTP is to balance these two sides. A good way to do this is by making sure your work is primarily Ti oriented and some of your play is Ne.

Ti work. Try to find a work life that is introverted where you can primarily use your thinking - computers are a typical example. Quietly working by yourself, solving problems on your computer autonomously is a wonderful way for the INTP to exercise Ti. Ti is the dominant function, so make this a priority. Every day make sure you have a work activity that allows you to solve problems on your own. Examples ...


Programmer/Architect/Designer
Analyst (Intelligence, political, economic, investing, or corporate)
Writer (non fiction, fiction, comedy, blogging or commentary)
Physical designer (architect, furniture, workspace, landscape)


Again the key point is that while the actual work is important, almost more important is the specific circumstances. I've been in programming jobs that are very extroverted (pair programming is a horrific example). Make sure you get set up in a way that allows you to work by yourself solving problems.

Ne play. Balance the Ti with play activities that get you out of your cave. I use photography for this. Left to my own devices I'd ignore the outside world, photography is a way for me to get out and actually see what is going on out there, and it engages my other functions in a nice way to boot.



Photography (any form)
Travel (local or international)
Physical activities (cycling, running, skiing)

[MacGuffin]

Ne play. Balance the Ti with play activities that get you out of your cave. I use photography for this. Left to my own devices I'd ignore the outside world, photography is a way for me to get out and actually see what is going on out there, and it engages my other functions in a nice way to boot.



Photography (any form)
Travel (local or international)
Physical activities (cycling, running, skiing)


Aren't you confusing Ne with Se? Ne wants input, esp. of the abstract or free-flowing connection making. Se wants to get out and do things.

Or, this is Se:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/mu.png

This is Ne:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_problem_with_wikipedia.png

[composer]

Aren't you confusing Ne with Se? Ne wants input, esp. of the abstract or free-flowing connection making. Se wants to get out and do things.

The examples I gave might look more Se - true - but I was thinking of Ne as the information gatherer, playful and free flowing as you say. My thought is to have some activities that get you out of your comfort zone, hopefully out in the world that gets the creative juices going. Other examples could be going to conferences, taking classes, reading outside your area, etc. In work I (and I suspect other INTP's) continually move from Ti to Ne as we're working on our thing. The point here is that INTP's can really get stuck in a rut and so need some things occasionally to get them out.

[composer]

Thanks for the reminder Mac, I need to add to this ...

The INTP Guide to work balance.

I believe that finding a good work situation is absolutely the most important thing for an INTP to have a fulfilling life. Now take this carefully young ones, don't use this as a reason to forever prevaricate over finding the ideal job, instead make sure you spend the effort finding a career and more importantly the job that works for you.

Now, you've got that figured out, the next thing to keep in mind is the Do versus Think relationship. Most INTP profiles say something to the effect that the INTP does best coming up with ideas and leaving it to others to implement. From this I've heard many an INTP say they would love this kind of job, just flitting from idea to idea which the Sensors or NTJ's bring to reality. In my experience there is a dangerous line here which we shouldn't cross.

I've worked all sides of this - pure Do jobs, pure Think jobs and in between. Using software engineering as an example, Do jobs would be pure coding to somebody else's design. These are no fun, you are simply banging out some output without creative input of your own, while they are a great way to get started I wouldn't recommend doing this for the long term.

At the other end of the spectrum are pure Think jobs, I did this as a software architect. Come up with designs, fly around the world with your grand architecture for others to implement, sounds great right? The problem here is that its far too easy for the INTP to become too disconnected with reality. We're already prone to this, and in my experience not having a deliverable that you provide inevitably leads to stagnation.

Einstein is the perfect example of an INTP. If you look at his life he did his best work while at the patent office. Once he was cloistered at the Institute for Advanced Study he didn't seem to get so much done. Well, hadn't he already done enough? Sure, but I think that working in obscurity, while having to keep down an easy Patent office job was the ideal conditions. Having free reign to stare at a chalkboard all day probably wasn't as helpful to keep the creative juices flowing.

Which leads to what I recommend as a work balance - combination of Think and Do. Again using software this is the independent developer who architects, designs and writes his own code. Doing can be a flow activity, and it keeps you relevant, honest and breathing oxygen with the rest of us. The more independent you can be from coworkers the better, ideally your job is to bring a feature from concept to implementation by yourself.

[Tenderfoot]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq3jujxEMM1qz6pqio1_500.png

[skip]

I don't know many people who can support themselves or their families doing work they love.

[rainfall]

I don't know many people who can support themselves or their families doing work they love.

You're basically saying you know people who work doing what they love but can't support themselves through that. If my assumption is correct, what do these people do, and exactly how broke are they? Regardless of that, are they happy?

==============

Dunno if these apply to intps in general or only to me. But as a dysfunctional intp trying to move towards greater functionality, I suppose some of these could apply.

Pacing. One thing that I am working on, and beginning to accept can be best described as the Chinese proverb "Be not afraid of growing slowly, be afraid only of standing still". Suppose you have a task that is very hard for you to do, but would benefit you greatly if finished. A book, for instance. It is better to read one page a day for two months and finish a hard book than to try to rush it in three days and give up. Better because at the end of two months there are results, at the end of three days there's only disappointment and self-loathing. Long term gratification was/is a hard concept to accept/follow for me, but when I manage to, it pays off. Cut less corners, take the hard but sure path towards whatever you want. Haste makes waste. Too bad you can't be always be this aware and perfect, but, it's a start when you try.

[skip]

They're not broke because they're not doing work they love. I think they're happy in other areas of their lives but not particularly in that one.

[rainfall]

They're not broke because they're not doing work they love. I think they're happy in other areas of their lives but not particularly in that one.

Ah, then your original statement simply meant you don't know anyone who loves their job, which it seems I misinterpreted. It's true, most people don't love what they do, but it seems to me that the smarter variety at least doesn't hate their job, that they do something they have an affinity with.

[Oso Mocoso]

Thoughts?

Spend less time reading posts written by Ptah.

Awesome!

[skip]

Ah, then your original statement simply meant you don't know anyone who loves their job

No, I did not write or mean that. While it's desirable to work at a job that you love, not everyone has that option since the job they love might not be able to support them financially or it simply might not be attainable for them for other reasons. Steve Jobs made a glib and careless statement that someone less fortunate would not have made.

[MacGuffin]

The examples I gave might look more Se - true - but I was thinking of Ne as the information gatherer, playful and free flowing as you say. My thought is to have some activities that get you out of your comfort zone, hopefully out in the world that gets the creative juices going. Other examples could be going to conferences, taking classes, reading outside your area, etc. In work I (and I suspect other INTP's) continually move from Ti to Ne as we're working on our thing. The point here is that INTP's can really get stuck in a rut and so need some things occasionally to get them out.

That is all very true.

[rainfall]

Not everyone has that option since the job they love might not be able to support them financially

Why wouldn't it be able to support them financially?


or it simply might not be attainable for them for other reasons.

Such as?

Just need some sort of back up evidence for these blanket statements.

[skip]

Why wouldn't it be able to support them financially?

It doesn't pay well.


Such as?

Lack of skill, resources, opportunities.

[rainfall]

It doesn't pay well.

What doesn't pay well? I mean, for some people, their love-job could be being a doctor, or a lawyer, etc, and that pays well.


Lack of skill, resources, opportunities.

With effort, a bit of solid decision making and time, cannot all three be obtained?

Ima cut to core - the statement "a job that you love will not support you financially" seems to be ungrounded in reality. People who make the most money in our society tend to love what they do.

[skip]

What doesn't pay well?


With effort, a bit of solid decision making and time, cannot all three be obtained?

You don't need me to state the obvious and I don't know why you're asking me to.


Ima cut to core - the statement "a job that you love will not support you financially" seems to be ungrounded in reality.

You'll have to take that up with someone else as I didn't say that.

[durentu]

@OP, where is spirituality? Every human needs something be ground themselves into the realities of their existence. And thus the book you are creating is a bible.

The mythology that is provided will give a framework of how to live life in the practical sense. It's basically the base code, the axioms of human existence.

I think the key is to define the axioms of INTP existence.

[Hexchild]

Somewhat relevant (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?6362-INTP-manual-for-life-(collective-advice-wisdom-learnings-
thread)).

[rainfall]

You don't need me to state the obvious and I don't know why you're asking me to.

Whatever. I think you blame circumstances for your failure to do what you want.

[skip]

Whatever. I think you blame circumstances for your failure to do what you want.

I haven't been describing myself.

[rainfall]

I haven't been describing myself.

You have a job you love?

[Deckard]

Rainfall, I can't tell if you have a problem with reading comprehension, or you just want to be argumentative. Maybe it's a bit of both. Either way you're strawmanning skip left and right.

[rainfall]

want to be argumentative. Maybe it's a bit of both. Either way you're strawmanning skip left and right.

I do want to be argumentative, but only because he's propagating a common belief of poor people that's not really grounded in reality. I was hoping he'd had something to back it up with. I mean, where did it come from? The belief that if you do work you love then you don't make any money? Thing is, all the all the rich people say the opposite! Tons of successful, motivated and well earning people do what they love/like!

[Hexchild]

I do want to be argumentative, but only because he's propagating a common belief of poor people that's not really grounded in reality. I was hoping he'd had something to back it up with. I mean, where did it come from? The belief that if you do work you love then you don't make any money? Thing is, all the all the rich people say the opposite! Tons of successful, motivated and well earning people do what they love/like!

Suppose that for some people finding well-paid work doing what they love is harder than for others, and that the scale is more or less evenly balanced. One major deciding factor of a person's position on that scale might be the nature of what exactly it is they love to do. It makes sense to me that those who were lucky enough to find themselves loving their job would tend to be the rich ones, and those who didn't would tend to be the poor (or otherwise miserable) ones.

[JamesGold]

So is Ptah ever going to get around to doing this?

[composer]

So is Ptah ever going to get around to doing this?

No. I'm doing my part, please contribute.

[JamesGold]

No. I'm doing my part, please contribute.

But I know little, master.

[composer]

But I know little, master.

But you are wise in the ways of the force young master (queue creepy fripping Yoda avatar)

If you don't have answers then put up questions.

[JamesGold]

What's the difference, if any, between a thought and the electrical impulse that summons it?

er, this doesn't really pertain to the betterment of the lives of INTPs. uh

besides, there's quite a few topics in the OP yet to be discussed

[rainfall]

One major deciding factor of a person's position on that scale might be the nature of what exactly it is they love to do.

It appears that in order to look for a source of lovable job one must simply look towards their hobbies. That's where interests/love spurs from. So the trick is to apply that in some form of a job.

[Hexchild]

It appears that in order to look for a source of lovable job one must simply look towards their hobbies. That's where interests/love spurs from. So the trick is to apply that in some form of a job.

I agree, but it's not always so easy to do that.

For instance, my main interests (and thus hobbies) are composing music, writing, drawing/graphics, sound engineering in general, electronics and computer programming. Of those, the one thing I really do well enough to make money from is programming. So I figured quite early on that I should try to find work in software development. Now, this sounds good in theory. Software development jobs tend to pay relatively well, and I had always enjoyed toying around with the building blocks of software. The problem is, programming is more fun when I am the one coming up with ideas of what to do than it is when a software development company gives me a specific problem to solve that I really have no natural interest in. Then there's deadlines, the tendency of customers and managers to want to micromanage, having to deal directly with customer relations, reporting work hours, dealing with constantly changing requirements, fixing other people's bad code, the pressure of writing good enough code most the time to keep one's job, but not too good since then you miss the deadlines, etc. All this adds up to massive hindrance in terms of having fun doing what I love doing.

After trying a dozen or so different programming jobs, I was actually just about ready to give up the idea of finding a good programming job, and had already started looking for other types of jobs. I happened to stumble upon the company I work for now, and here I am at a well-paying software development job that I actually enjoy some 80% of the time. But, given my job history and what other people tend to say about work in this business I'm also fairly convinced that I was extremely lucky.

[!diom]

The problem is, programming is more fun when I am the one coming up with ideas of what to do than it is when a software development company gives me a specific problem to solve that I really have no natural interest in. Then there's deadlines, the tendency of customers and managers to want to micromanage, having to deal directly with customer relations, reporting work hours, dealing with constantly changing requirements, fixing other people's bad code, the pressure of writing good enough code most the time to keep one's job, but not too good since then you miss the deadlines, etc. All this adds up to massive hindrance in terms of having fun doing what I love doing.


I would love to have that kind of job at this point in my life. However, it's mainly because I've spent the past 3 years homeless, unemployed, living with annoying strangers, and/or barely surviving off of low-paying work. Anyways, it's very good to have that kind of job if you love programming, even if you don't like the work. Every little bit of practice coding will give you experience you can use to work on your own projects, or simply others that you enjoy. You get paid better and enjoy a higher quality of life than say, working at a grocery store. Not to mention, it looks better on a resume than working on a grocery store when you finally choose to move on. You also probably wouldn't end up physically exhausted at the end of the day, allowing you to work on your own projects or interests. In short, people should be grateful for that shit.

As an aside, here are three things that have drastically improved my quality of life:
(1) Good food choices
(2) Cycling
(3) Squeezing someone else's butt and, in turn, having mine squeezed

[mxmxmx]

Ptah, concerning your initial solicitation of input - are you more interested in published sources, internet articles, etc. or member insights from their own experiences? (Perhaps even both).

Edit: I guess I should ask if you are still seeking input.

[avolkiteshvara]

didn't Mashed Potato do one of these threads?

[bass_n_treble]

Ok Hustler... nice job thinking you are the authority on thought and the process of thinking.

My advice: Have two jobs, or one job and a serious hobby. Get a vasectomy and don't tell anyone.

[Zephyrus055]

I do want to be argumentative, but only because he's propagating a common belief of poor people that's not really grounded in reality. I was hoping he'd had something to back it up with. I mean, where did it come from? The belief that if you do work you love then you don't make any money? Thing is, all the all the rich people say the opposite! Tons of successful, motivated and well earning people do what they love/like!

Who wouldn't love being on top of the hill, telling people what to do?