Perpetual Motion and the Understanding of Science

[Dunearhp]

Periodically I discover that people around me have absolutely no understanding of the fundamental constraints of physics.

I don't mind overmuch when people make simple mistakes about fields they have never studied. Ignorance isn't a sin.

I don't mind when an otherwise intelligent individual suggests to me that the car companies should make electric cars that use the movement of the wheels to generate electricity that will then power the wheels so that the car doesn't need batteries.

What I do mind is when they ignore me when I tell them clearly why such a car will not work. I mean, what could I know; I've only studied engineering. I tell them that they can't get something for nothing. But they've studied business, which has fooled them into thinking that they can.[1]

I have listened with despair as people of extraordinary capability tell me about this new reactionless drive they heard about that you can make out of two bicycle wheels, two squishy balls of different size, wood and a two stroke engine. I am sorry, but such a contraption will not propel you through the vacuum of space unless it is throwing bits of squishy ball out behind it as a propellant.

Sorry if this seems like a bit of a rant, but every few months, someone I consider intelligent comes up with something absolutely ridiculous. I am then unable to make them see why it is impossible.

If anyone here has encountered this phenomenon, have they been able to make these people see sense?

[1] This is not meant as an insult towards businesspeople. Merely to state that economics is not nearly as concrete as science. Gravity cares about an objects actual mass, not the measure we write on the front of it.

[Chall T. Dow]

I'm studying physics at the moment and I find myself in similar situations every now and then. Usually after explaining things 2-3 times the other person will eventually say something to the affect that since I'm in physics I must be right without ever having paid any attention to what I was saying or even trying to think about it.

Chall T. Dow

[Hypnos]

I just heard David Gross (http://nobelprize.org/physics/laureates/2004/index.html) and others speak on the merits of skepticism and ignorance. Broadly, intellectual honesty.

[Geek Engineer]

I don't mind when an otherwise intelligent individual suggests to me that the car companies should make electric cars that use the movement of the wheels to generate electricity that will then power the wheels so that the car doesn't need batteries.

:rofl: That's a good one.. Ok I have heard of re-generative braking, but that one take the cake.

I don't think I have ran into someone that would ignore me if I corrected a mistake like that. I do run into Christians that want to argue that the theory of evolution is not scientifically sound etc. I usually avoid that argument as I am not as well knowledgeable on such areas. I guess they have this "intelligent design" theory that they are trying to push these days. I don't know if anyone really knows what is true, but I have some heart burn when they try to tell me earth is 6 thousand years old or something..

[Architectonic]

I believe the car losslessly creates a vaccum around the car, therefore it avoids frictional losses and glides smoothly through space. [/quasiscience] ;)

[Shai Gar]

I believe the car losslessly creates a vaccum around the car, therefore it avoids frictional losses and glides smoothly through space. [/quasiscience] ;)
yes yes, good boy. anyone else have an opinion?

[atypical]

In year 9, an ENFP friend was adamant that if you had enough magnets arranged in a circle you could get a magnetic wheel spinning indefinately, generating more and more power as it went along it's way. I tried earnestly to convince him otherwise, but he'd rumble something off about the merits of "established science" and begin ignoring me. And I tried to convince him not to spend $500 on super-strong magnets.

The magnets were pretty cool tho.

And now, another ENFP friend (who also fancies himself as having strong T) is working on a design for a new ion drive that explodes its waste material to get extra thrust. I know nothing about ion drives but i'm pretty sure that if such an idea was at all plausible it would already have been done, or someone really smart would already be working on it. He's gonna send his design to richard branson.

[Architectonic]

I think those people will learn about the concept of efficiency soon enough......

[Shai Gar]

i'm pretty sure that if such an idea was at all plausible it would already have been done, or someone really smart would already be working on it. He's gonna send his design to richard branson.
heard of a fella called tesla? he had a machine that could create energy for free, but he was fucked up financially because the fossil fuel people didnt want free energy.

just because it is possible and it might help humanity doesnt mean that there is anyone working on it

[Imen de Naars]

[1] This is not meant as an insult towards businesspeople. Merely to state that economics is not nearly as concrete as science. Gravity cares about an objects actual mass, not the measure we write on the front of it.

I study economics - which is not exactly business - and i can't help agreeing with you. Especially towards the marketing area gravitates so many biased unscientific ideas that i can't be bothered not to state the self-evident lack of logical ground. That's why i'm usually referred as the Physi-Sophist :/

[atypical]

heard of a fella called tesla? he had a machine that could create energy for free, but he was fucked up financially because the fossil fuel people didnt want free energy.


Even if you're tesla, conservation of energy still applies. There's no such thing as free energy.

[Shai Gar]

he gained renewable energy by tapping into the earths field, and didnt pay a cent, i would say that is free energy

[Architectonic]

he gained renewable energy by tapping into the earths field, and didnt pay a cent, i would say that is free energy

What do you mean by 'earths field'? How does that make it renewable?

There is plenty of 'free' energy. Most of it comes from the sun. ;)

[Shai Gar]

i dont know how he did it, if i did i would work on renewing what he did before he was executed

[crofbe]

I prefer art and music over physics and discussions about physics (time to plug another music artist)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001906SQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Hypnos]

The Earth's magnetic field is largely static so no power is being transmitted, and the energy density is so low anyway that it's useless to dig into it.

Solar power might be viable if solar cells were more efficient. Power flux is 1KW/m^2, so one could get a gigawatt with a 1km^2 array -- comparable to current power plants.

Nuclear is way more power-dense than even that.

[MaroonBells]

The Earth's magnetic field is largely static so no power is being transmitted, and the energy density is so low anyway that it's useless to dig into it.

Solar power might be viable if solar cells were more efficient. Power flux is 1KW/m^2, so one could get a gigawatt with a 1km^2 array -- comparable to current power plants.

Nuclear is way more power-dense than even that.

So if we agree on basic energy inefficiencies, which energy source is the 'most' efficient? Will that be nuclear energy?

[Hypnos]

Nuclear looks like the way to go -- a number of mainstream environmentalists are coming around to the idea. Even with conservation, increasing precision in machines (e.g., laser technology) will increase power demands -- 2nd law of thermodynamics.

[Architectonic]

Which form of nuclear? ;)

[PsiKik]

How to become rich pedling crackpot technology.

http://www.phact.org/e/con_man.htm


History of free energy and perpetual motion machines


http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html

[PsiKik]

i dont know how he did it, if i did i would work on renewing what he did before he was executed
Tesla executed? Surely you mean 'assasinated' by the evil global capitalist conspiracy who at that time where making plans for the great 20'th century
oil con?