are you embarassed to be American?

[file cabinet]

fuck, I know I am.
Russia had the fall of the Berlin wall..
Germany had the fall of Hitler..
Italy had the fall of Mussolini..
what will the US have?
The fall of democracy can't happen because we do not live in a democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism).

The US is not a democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy) nation..

The idea of freedom of speech is all well and good except for the censorship in the media... in the government.. and so on..

[CosmicDust]

America isn't all it's cracked up to be...but I'm neither embarrassed nor proud. I think I'm lucky to be a non-disadvantaged American, since it's a relatively easy life to live, although it's at the expense of the hardship of others...a sobering thought.

[Jkrs]

Being American is all right. I loathe most of the people running the government now, though. One can only hope that, twenty years from now, most of them will have died or been replaced.

[antireconciler]

I really don't buy into the concept that I'm well off at the expense of others. Who would I be living off of (excuding my parents)? Please elaborate on your perspective.

I think America is just fine. America criticizes itself a lot because it is not the perfect democracy it tries to make itself look like. Perhaps it does not understand that when it calls itself a "developed nation" that this is a reletive term. Every nation is still evolving and developing. America prides itself on its freedom of trade, etc, because it has reached a stage in evolution where it can afford this. It beats itself up over the things it sees within that are clearly not free, but that is useless. America must be patient and accepting with itself, it will outgrow its fears, corruptions, hypocracies, etc. naturally in time.

[Witticism]

"Russia had the fall of the Berlin wall..
Germany had the fall of Hitler..
Italy had the fall of Mussolini.."

All of these things were caused because of the amazing screw-ups those countries made. Germany wouldn't have had the fall of Hitler if they hadn't allowed him such power in the same place - same with Italy and Mussolini.
And the Berlin wall was up for years, causing serious hardship to the east Germans.
But if you're looking for achievements, America's is it's constitution. It was the first document of its time and far ahead of any other country in the world.
Regardless of whether America is as great as it makes itself out to be, it's still one of the superior countries of the world. It's not the superpower of the world for no reason.
I'm not really American - I'm Irish, but was born in Chicago and so I possess an American passport - but I'm proud of the small part of me that is American. I think it's a great country, personally.

[CosmicDust]

You're living off of the third-worlders who made all your clothes. And I don't think any person or nation can outgrow all its faults. Faults are just part of anything created by humans. I really can't imagine a government getting any less corrupt, because on the large scales of time and size they're all corrupt because that's just the way people work when they can and when they're interested in running countries. On average, anyway.

So perhaps you're right that America need not beat itself up over this stuff.

[Melody]

How would one be living off of third-worlders who make clothes? What if Americans did not wear clothes? The third worlders would not have jobs.

I think corruption can be dealt with by transparency. For example, I think an official is less likely to steal money from their organization if the budget has to be made public. In general, public awareness is important. A nice example is the 9/11 Commission Report (http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm).

America's problems with corruption are nothing compared to many other countries'. Mexico comes very quickly to mind.

I love America. I love the freedom of speech that allows Eminem to annoy government people.

"I've shoveled shit all my life/
And now I'm dumping it on 'em."
- White America

"I'm all for America,
Fuck the government."
- Rap Game

And also movies like Fahrenheit 9/11 to be released. I like how many articles of entertainment this nation produces and allows are banned in other countries (certain videogames whose initials are Grand Theft Auto III, for example.) I think it shows how far ahead we are. We are the Google of the world.

[Hypnos]

I'm embarrassed to be an American because it has such a massive welfare state, forcibly funded and our civil liberties are being eroded due to irrational fears about terror.

Yet, America is far more pleasant (in places) than the vast majority of the world, which tells you how sorry the state of the world is. I heard Luxembourg is nice.

[KentOhio]

I'm only emabarrased to be an American when I'm grouped in with Jerry Springer, Eminem, and other such purveyors of cultural garbage. That's one reason why other countries hate us, by the way; we export our degenerated ''entertainment'' to them.

[Hypnos]

I'm only emabarrased to be an American when I'm grouped in with Jerry Springer, Eminem, and other such purveyors of cultural garbage. That's one reason why other countries hate us, by the way; we export our degenerated ''entertainment'' to them.
Whatever. American trash might be more salacious, but it is hardly of lower quality than the homegrown crap around the world. Also, no one is forcing anyone else to watch American trash.

[Avengardh]

Hm, America is a continent...

And I think that the best thing about the USA is their opportunities, in Mexico there aren't any, specially if you are female and on top of that, poor.

The fact that my weirdness can be accepted so much more freely here than in my own country.

~*Aven*~

[Melody]

I'm only emabarrased to be an American when I'm grouped in with Jerry Springer, Eminem, and other such purveyors of cultural garbage. That's one reason why other countries hate us, by the way; we export our degenerated ''entertainment'' to them.
Cultural garbage? Have you listened to an Eminem album? I am proud to be recognized along with him because I love the bastard. I have much greater dislike of being grouped with Bush.

I saw a film starring the comedian Ali G. He is an English (as in British) "gangster." At one point in the film, the police showed up and he said something like, "It's the LAPD!"

Btw, the Eminem songs you see on MTV are advertisement. The albums themselves are much different. :devil:

[Birdsnest]

Our world affairs could be much better I'm sure.

[Wrath Mania]

Nah, I'm not embarrassed. I'm not crying over yellow ribbons and waving flags, but I realize that, despite the government's idiocy, the blind society, and the McDonalds on every corner, its still better than most of the world.

The society is bearable, there are opportunities, etc. Do I detest the government and a lot of the sensatiolist media? Yeah. Our media's got to be better then Al Jazeera.

[antireconciler]

Re: Avengardh
I've heard Mexicans and Canadians don't like it when citizens of the US refer to themselves as Americans when refering to thier nationality instead of thier home continent. I think Mexicans and Canadians can be North Americans, but "American" should just be for citizens of the US. Otherwise, what are we to call ourselves when refering to our nationality? If we call ourselves Americans because there is nothing else to call us, shouldn't we make it simple and just let "United States of America" = "United States" = "America"? Pretty much no one thinks a Canadian or Mexican lives in America unless they live in the United States anyway, except some Canadians and Mexicans.

Re: Wrath Mania
In Al Jazeera, you just wouldn't know better. Little wonder places like that stagnate!

[Wrath Mania]

Oh, yeah, I meant our media has got to better than Al Jazeera. Obviously it isn't a country ;)

[Birnam]

yeah, I tried calling us 'UnitedStatesians' .. it doesn't go over too well. I do understand the problem (and America is two continents btw ;)), but what is the solution? Any other name isn't ever going to be used except by the few who hear about it and care enough about the problem to change the way they speak.

oh the topic ... yes and no. But, I would also be embarrassed to belong to a number of other countries. Our pop culture is appalling, our excuse for politics are just plain shameful. But, there are a lot of things that we _do_ do right that compensate.

(It's late... I'll come back to this thought later)

[Avengardh]

Re: Avengardh
Pretty much no one thinks a Canadian or Mexican lives in America unless they live in the United States anyway, except some Canadians and Mexicans.



You would be surprised....it's not only Mexicans and Canadians. I would agree though, with some of your points. Only problem is that when you are from other parts of America and you say that you are American as well, you get shot down (happened to me too many times...). But hey, I would be ok with people referring to themselves as American if they also acknowledged other Americans.
But that's not the point and let's end this here dude, too many logistics.

And yes, America is 2 continents, I was never good at Geography, lol.

~*Aven*~

[Sugaraddict2702]

"Russia had the fall of the Berlin wall..
Germany had the fall of Hitler..
Italy had the fall of Mussolini.."

All of these things were caused because of the amazing screw-ups those countries made. Germany wouldn't have had the fall of Hitler if they hadn't allowed him such power in the same place - same with Italy and Mussolini.
.

you should know as well as I do that those matters are not only the fault of those people themselves. As far as Hitler is concerned, his rise to power isn't just a "screw-up" by Germany, the cause for that needs to be found in the ending of World War I, the treaty of Versailles, in the economical crisis of the 30ies, ect. All European countries, and America have neclected Hitler for too long. When a nation has been attacked, or has economical difficulties, a lot of people actually want a strong leader. We saw that with 9/11 : the majority of America supported Bush, but after some time things are being put into perpective and more critical thoughts rise...

Ellen*

[ohnoaninfp]

I am proud to be an American. I could have been born in the Middle East or somewhere else, where woman don't have any rights. I can go to school and make somthing of my self. The woman in those places are not allowed to go to school, or anything like that.

[antireconciler]

Oh, yeah, I meant our media has got to better than Al Jazeera. Obviously it isn't a country ;)

Yes, that's right! Heh. I should know what I'm saying before I say it next time. It's hard to break from tradition, though.

[Crazy]

As far as what we call ourselves, we are United States of Americans, or just Americans for short. We could all call ourselves yanks, as long as the southerners don't mind.
:rofl:

I am proud to be an American. We don't have a perfect country, but it is pretty good. There are alot of things that we take for granted that we have that we wouldn't in other countries. For instance, in other countries we would be tracked down and possibly killed for this thread. The right to gather in peaceful protest. Wearing whatever clothes we like. Innocent until proven guilty (or at least the impression of it) or the right to a speedy trial by our peers, with a lawyer appointed for us. The appeals system. Minimum wage and health and labor laws. Etc. Freedom of the press, speach, and religion. The list goes on.

[giftedmadness@hotmail.com]

Proud to be an American.

Except for things like the FDA, which stiffle freedom. They are too in with the drug companies. Also, public schooling is a joke. They should just get rid of it in one fell swoop. And all the other things that make us more socialistic than most people realize, I can't stand. But I'm proud to live here.

[int]

I live here out of choice. "Proud" is a strong word, as I'm not waving a flag out front or anything. And I am working on getting dual citizenship.

You won't find me voting to lethally defend any imaginary lines though, no matter what country I live in.

[HairlessBluetick]

You won't find me voting to lethally defend any imaginary lines though, no matter what country I live in.

Amen.

[Vagabond]

First of all, I am not an American. But, I don't understand the notion of being either proud or ashamed of one's nationality. I am proud of my personal achievements and ashamed of my personal wrong actions. I could be proud of my ancient ancestors, or my ancestors in general, however whatever there is to be proud of there, is not my doing, so I have no reason to take pride in it. I am occasionaly ashamed of my governement's actions, I would be ashamed of some of my governemet's actions if I was an american too, but in no way do/would they make me feel ashamed of myself. I don't accept my governement as the paragon of greeks and I don't accept the USA governement as the paragon of americans. We are individuals above everything.

Btw, it is not entirely true that I am ashamed of my own actions. Shame doesn't help - if I did something and regreted it, I will try and do it right; if it is not possible, it is done and doesn't change - I just try to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them.

[paladinoflunaria]

Vagabond wrote:

First of all, I am not an American. But, I don't understand the notion of being either proud or ashamed of one's nationality. I am proud of my personal achievements and ashamed of my personal wrong actions.

That pretty much sums it up for me. I don't see any reason to be upset by the location of my birth.

[int]

Same here. I had no choice in the matter until I was 18, and yet I'm supposed to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth every morning??

[Slider]

The US is not a democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy) nation..

of course not. It's a democratic republic, dumbass.

[Slider]

Proud to be an American.

Except for things like the FDA, which stiffle freedom. They are too in with the drug companies. Also, public schooling is a joke. They should just get rid of it in one fell swoop. And all the other things that make us more socialistic than most people realize, I can't stand. But I'm proud to live here.

wot exactly are drug companies "into"?

[nobarcode]

fuck, I know I am.
Russia had the fall of the Berlin wall..
Germany had the fall of Hitler..
Italy had the fall of Mussolini..
what will the US have?
The fall of democracy can't happen because we do not live in a democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism).

The US is not a democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy) nation..

The idea of freedom of speech is all well and good except for the censorship in the media... in the government.. and so on..

It seems you may be taking on the shame of our current government, playing the martyr so to say. But I see no reason not to be proud to be an American with a more personalized (owned) definition of it. The writings of the the "Declaration of Independence", the "Constitution of the United States" and Amendments, and "The Bill of Rights" were brilliant imo. True, we've digressed from there and then some. I personally will hold myself accountable for being "American" and act accordingly. That's all I can do.

[int]

That's an interesting perspective, nobarcode. But at the same time I've skimmed the German constitution, and it has its merits as well. Not that I'm running off to Germany or anything....

[drop_motif]

How would one be living off of third-worlders who make clothes? What if Americans did not wear clothes? The third worlders would not have jobs.


i can't tell if this is a joke or not. i just found you guys, but i wouldn't expect the members of such a board to let this issue go unexamined.

we live off the third worlders by taking their energy, not their clothes. whether that means taking their oil, or using them as slaves to sew our tracksuits, the fact is that america would be a much different place if it didn't exploit others.

the fact that americans don't NEED to wear clothes is a straw man. the idea that we provide third worlders with "jobs" misses the point. it's the conditions of the "job" that determine if it is considered slavery.

[int]

i can't tell if this is a joke or not. i just found you guys, but i wouldn't expect the members of such a board to let this issue go unexamined.


Meh. It's Melody. :)

[Seraph]

Of course not. I think America beats itself up way, way too much. So what if this country has issues? Every country has issues. Ours are just hanging out for all to see, because, as the sole superpower, we are always in the spotlight. And I think that's a good thing; America is so self-critical that it betters itself.

[drop_motif]

Of course not. I think America beats itself up way, way too much. So what if this country has issues? Every country has issues. Ours are just hanging out for all to see, because, as the sole superpower, we are always in the spotlight. And I think that's a good thing; America is so self-critical that it betters itself.

I don't think this is a proper analogy to draw. you're projecting. (unless you've done a "fair amount of killing", and are confident that your self-awareness excuses you)

your willingness to "empathize" with america only prevents you from understanding the situation. maybe you should use your own self-criticism to examine your thoughts on the world.

could you please give an example of america having bettered itself?

[Seraph]

I don't think this is a proper analogy to draw. you're projecting. (unless you've done a "fair amount of killing", and are confident that your self-awareness excuses you)

your willingness to "empathize" with america only prevents you from understanding the situation. maybe you should use your own self-criticism to examine your thoughts on the world.

could you please give an example of america having bettered itself?

The obesity "epidemic." What we don't hear is that other countries have a similar problem. America is so focused on finding a solution that, you know what, I think we will. I think we'll be the very first nation to find a pill that curbs appetites, because we're freaking out about it so much. I read an article that that very pill is being worked on.

You always see disasters and stories on the news, and after every one of them, there's always a "How can we solve this?" or "What can we do to keep this from happening again?" Don't like a certain issue that's going on today? Complain about it, protest it. It'll change in time. Nations are just like people -- they learn.

[drop_motif]

The obesity "epidemic." What we don't hear is that other countries have a similar problem. America is so focused on finding a solution that, you know what, I think we will. I think we'll be the very first nation to find a pill that curbs appetites, because we're freaking out about it so much. I read an article that that very pill is being worked on.

that's super, thank you. now please think for a minute and tell me how this is in no way an example of america having bettered iself. i know you can do it.


You always see disasters and stories on the news, and after every one of them, there's always a "How can we solve this?" or "What can we do to keep this from happening again?" Don't like a certain issue that's going on today? Complain about it, protest it. It'll change in time. Nations are just like people -- they learn.

do you know how many people were arrested for protesting at the RNC?

take a look at this video about last year's WTO protests in miami:

http://ftaaimc.org/miamimodel

...and you will see, among other things, the police taking aim and shooting a woman who looks just like my mom in the face with a rubber bullet.

[drop_motif]

this is nice, too. in the news today:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/08/1422252


Trial Set to Begin Over Use of Pepper Spray-Soaked Cotton Swabs on Non-Violent Protesters in 1997

.....On all three occasions, the activists - who ranged in age from 16 to 40 years-old - locked their arms in metal pipes to participate in a non-violent protest of logging practices. And on all three occasions, the police responded using a method that Amnesty International would later deem "tantamount to torture."

One by one, police officers forcibly seized the heads of each demonstrator and inserted cotton swabs saturated with the chemical agent pepper spray into their eyes. In two of the cases, officers also sprayed the substance directly into their eyes at close range.

[Division56]

That's a typical American response, instead of looking to the root of the problem we should just take a pill to make all the problems go away. No, we wouldn't want to find the root of the problem, just slap a little more patching agent on it and don't think about any long term damage it will cause.

[Star Cannon]

I love America; I hate America's government. I live in a beautiful country... A vast land. It's also a land full of idiots. It's also full of people.
No, i'm not embarrased to be American.

[drop_motif]

I love America; I hate America's government. I live in a beautiful country... A vast land. It's also a land full of idiots. It's also full of people.
No, i'm not embarrased to be American.

You mean....you're proud of the landscape?

Sorry to sound harsh, but is this just another self-serving mental exercise to avoid the reality of America?

I don't understand how anyone could be embarassed about the landscape. I don't understand your answer because you've rendered the question meaningless...so how can there be any meaning in your answer?

I think embarassment is the prerequisite to change. To avoid feeling it will ensure that you remain one of the typical American idiots that I am embarassed to be associated with.

[Vagabond]

Hm, star cannon didn't say she was proud of the landscape; she said she loves her country and hates its government. If she hated her country, she'd have to hate herself too, as she is part of it. I really don't understand *your* answer, drop_motif. I agree with star cannon's reply totally. I hope you won't make the mistake of including *me* among the "typical american idiots you are embarassed to be associated with".

[EternalCynic]

Well put, Vagabond.

[Johnny]

...unless you've done a "fair amount of killing", and are confident that your self-awareness excuses you)

your willingness to "empathize" with america only prevents you from understanding the situation. maybe you should use your own self-criticism to examine your thoughts on the world.

could you please give an example of america having bettered itself?

I just knew I should have stayed away from this thread... :devil:

Don't you realize that most of the people who post here are only kids who struggle more to do their part in maintaining healthy relationships with their parents, that they have no idea you're trying to wave the badges you think you wear to wow people with your fantasy war against the FTAA and the US?

Where are you in those films? How many people have you saved from death in your cause? How many bullets (rubber or otherwise) have you taken? I searched high and low for a reference to "drop_motif" with no success on any of the links you offered. What, then, are you projecting?

If you don't like America, fine, but you're impressing few with your armchair arguments here. How about taking your passion and doing something to help real people rather than wasting your time here trying to make youself feel smarter than those who have posted that they do love America...or will that upset your reality?

Try this link for size: http://www.ifrc.org/
:sombrero:

[drop_motif]

It's too easy to get used to communicating in an extroverted world. I probably used the word "proud" because it's so often used when speaking of how one feels about being american. At this point, I'm not clear on what star cannon was saying, but I am interested in understanding.

Would you agree that people all over the world see positive qualities in their countries, even though they're dissatisfied with their governments and feel that many of their fellow citizens are idiots?

Is there a situation where you think people have been embarrassed of their countries?

...and in what situation do you think a person would be embarrassed of their country?

[drop_motif]

Don't you realize that most of the people who post here are only kids who struggle more to do their part in maintaining healthy relationships with their parents,
No, I didn't realize that there were mostly kids here, but I do understand what a struggle it is to maintain a healthy relationship with family. I don't understand why these facts are important, though.

that they have no idea you're trying to wave the badges you think you wear to wow people with your fantasy war against the FTAA and the US?
Well, this isn't what I thought I was doing, but I see how it might look that way to you, since i'm very new to this forum and most of my posts could be read as antagonistic.

Where are you in those films? How many people have you saved from death in your cause? How many bullets (rubber or otherwise) have you taken? I searched high and low for a reference to "drop_motif" with no success on any of the links you offered.
I try my best not to project. Also, I try not to resort to ad hominem attacks (we probably both know how difficult this can be sometimes).

What, then, are you projecting?
Could you tell me what you think I'm projecting?

If you don't like America, fine, but you're impressing few with your armchair arguments here. How about taking your passion and doing something to help real people rather than wasting your time here trying to make youself feel smarter than those who have posted that they do love America...or will that upset your reality?
I think many, if not most of us intp's are beyond getting our kicks by trying to impress others, if only because we watch so many other people playing this game every day.

I'll try to better articulate my thoughts and better understand those of others, but please remember that what intp's do best is done internally...and I'm not sure what is the most effective way to communicate this kind of stuff to others (also, this is the first time I've ever been around a group of intps, so I don't know what is possible).

The day I found this forum, I read someone's post that said something like, "If you saw me making a mistake, I would hope that you would point it out to me".

It really struck me because I've often said the exact same thing to friends I've inadvertently offended.

I apologize to anyone I've upset--that was not my intention. I really do think that the topic is an interesting one, though.

Try this link for size: http://www.ifrc.org/
I'm sure we can all agree that the world is a much better place because of the volunteers at the Red Cross. I just wish that we could find a way to lighten their workload.

[Seraph]

The obesity "epidemic." What we don't hear is that other countries have a similar problem. America is so focused on finding a solution that, you know what, I think we will. I think we'll be the very first nation to find a pill that curbs appetites, because we're freaking out about it so much. I read an article that that very pill is being worked on.

that's super, thank you. now please think for a minute and tell me how this is in no way an example of america having bettered iself. i know you can do it.

Man, I love this type, but we can be awfully condescending in debates.

I'm going to assume you meant "Please think for a minute and tell me how this is in any way an example of America having bettered itself." It probably wasn't the best example for me to have given. A better one would have probably been the Civil Rights movement. This isn't just an America-only thing; every country has a period of history where it makes a critical mistake but learns from it and betters itself (Germany and Japan in the 1930's and beyond are good examples). Nations are dynamic, especially depending on who's in power. Really, do are you anti-American, or anti-Bush? They're two entirely different things.


do you know how many people were arrested for protesting at the RNC?

take a look at this video about last year's WTO protests in miami:

http://ftaaimc.org/miamimodel

...and you will see, among other things, the police taking aim and shooting a woman who looks just like my mom in the face with a rubber bullet.

That's an isolated incident. Of course you're going to hear about when protests go wrong, because it makes headlines. And could you please post maybe a slightly less biased link?

[nobarcode]

Don't you realize that most of the people.....
What, then, are you projecting?
Could you tell me what you think I'm projecting?....

If you don't like America, fine, but you're impressing few with your armchair arguments here. How about taking your passion and doing something to help real people rather than wasting your time here trying to make youself feel smarter than those who have posted that they do love America...or will that upset your reality?
I think many, if not most of us intp's are beyond getting our kicks by trying to impress others, if only because we watch so many other people playing this game every day.

I'll try to better articulate my thoughts and better understand those of others, but please remember that what intp's do best is done internally...and I'm not sure what is the most effective way to communicate this kind of stuff to others (also, this is the first time I've ever been around a group of intps, so I don't know what is possible).

The day I found this forum, I read someone's post that said something like, "If you saw me making a mistake, I would hope that you would point it out to me".

It really struck me because I've often said the exact same thing to friends I've inadvertently offended.

I apologize to anyone I've upset--that was not my intention. I really do think that the topic is an interesting one, though.

Try this link for size: http://www.ifrc.org/
I'm sure we can all agree that the world is a much better place because of the volunteers at the Red Cross. I just wish that we could find a way to lighten their workload.
Ahem. ARE YOU EMBARASSED TO BE AMERICAN?

[drop_motif]

And could you please post maybe a slightly less biased link?

Here's a less biased and pertinent link:

http://www.cspan.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=palast&image1.x=24&image1.y=10

[Johnny]

Could you tell me what you think I'm projecting?...I just wish that we could find a way to lighten their workload.

I wasn't offering rhetorical questions, and lightening your workload is not on my to-do list.

[drop_motif]

Could you tell me what you think I'm projecting?...I just wish that we could find a way to lighten their workload.
I wasn't offering rhetorical questions, and lightening your workload is not on my to-do list.I was just going to let this go since it's baseless and off-topic, but now you've made it so ridiculous that I can't ignore it. Your first mistake: You don't know me.
Second mistake: When I asked about you, you told me to figure it out on my own.
Third mistake: You provide a extensive searchable record of your daily thoughts.

OK, you don't give a shit about me, and have no time to spare...I get it. But the truth is that you need to avoid looking at your behavior the previous day because you don't really understand it. It's scary when your action backfires because of your failure to think....And yet you just magnified the problem when you assigned me a to-do list so you wouldn't have to deal with your own issues. It's bad enough that you made me into a vessel for your complexes, but to then tell me to disappear in order to complete the illusion that you're OK...is sick. Did you really think that by asking if I'm projecting you would blind me to the fact that nearly every sentence in your post was a projection? I get no enjoyment from being in this position, but you volunteered for this, Johnny--it's all you.

I just knew I should have stayed away from this thread...
Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:08 pm
In expressing my Fe within in this forum (where there is a written record and I can go back to "analyze"), when I bring my T function in I'm almost paralyzed and unable to find it useful.

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:41 am
On further reflection now, I'm pretty sure my assessment in the above post is flawed...but I'm letting it stand as-is for anyone to pick apart as he/she sees fit.
Don't you realize that most of the people who post here are only kids who struggle more to do their part in maintaining healthy relationships with their parents, that they have no idea you're trying to wave the badges you think you wear to wow people with your fantasy war against the FTAA and the US?
Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:25 pm
I would say that it takes thought and consideration before political ideas can truly resonate or horrify a person, and those people are in a minority. It can get pretty lonely out there when a person of this disposition stands his/her ground among others.

Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:25 pm
I'm not a politician and don't keep up with much more than my family, friends, and what is offered to me on the newspaper's front page headline.

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:41 am
O.K., I really mean no harm to anyone, young or old. Just trying to blow a horn loud enough to be a wake-up-call and change lives around for the better...

Where are you in those films? How many people have you saved from death in your cause? How many bullets (rubber or otherwise) have you taken? I searched high and low for a reference to "drop_motif" with no success on any of the links you offered. What, then, are you projecting?
Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:17 am
My worst job was doing social work in Atlanta when I was a punk kid in my early twenties...suicide threats, Bosnian war refugees, and child abuse were part of the day-to-day.

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:08 pm
I donate time and money to Church and community activities quite a bit.

Sat Aug 14, 2004 3:05 pm
The abyss of subjective thought, for me, is only frightening when I am stirred to see the clock and find out how long I've been thinking about something without doing anything about it...

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:41 pm
INTP'ers solving the world's problems? Dream on...

If you don't like America, fine, but you're impressing few with your armchair arguments here. How about taking your passion and doing something to help real people rather than wasting your time here trying to make youself feel smarter than those who have posted that they do love America...or will that upset your reality?
Try this link for size:

Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:00 am
William James asserts: why go into a frenzy over whether a squirrel running around a tree trunk, such that as you chase it you can never see it, really exists? It's just not useful to ponder such things. I don't disagree with this claim. I am attracted to pragmatism, to what works, and I'm an American. But here's where I part ways with Bill: as I am capable of it regardless, I am intent on making the mechanisms by which these useless ponderings are devised work somehow. Reminds me of the poem:
We dance round in a ring and suppose, But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:19 pm
I do wish sometimes that the release of crying came more often, that it might be more constructive than anger or taking something apart.
Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:17 pm
You can't turn back time, but you can reflect. Please consider what you are doing, what it really means, and what you...can do.

[Johnny]

If I didn't give a shit about you, drop_motif, I wouldn't have bothered posting to begin with...but I'm still not going to do your work for you. Are you going to bother answering anyone's questions, or are you going to continue playing with your stalker fantasy?

You can always stalk a mirror...

[MacGuffin]

This isn't just an America-only thing; every country has a period of history where it makes a critical mistake but learns from it and betters itself (Germany and Japan in the 1930's and beyond are good examples.

I actually think these are bad examples. Both countries had to be defeated militarily, and had their current forms of government imposed on them by the Allies.

P.S. I have no desire to get into the Johnny vs. drop_motif argument.

[drop_motif]

... maybe I am simply intellectually challenged here.

I take it as a given that I'm intellectually challenged. I can't even seem to communicate the simplest ideas to others.



It's too easy to get used to communicating in an extroverted world. ~ drop_motif
What do you mean by this drop_motif?
Please explain the difference between communicating in an extroverted world to communicating in an introverted world.

I didn't mean to set up the binary opposition here. I just meant to say that it's hard to communicate ideas that were arrived at through intuition.


A gargantuan generalization there, drop_motif!

I'm glad you pointed this out, because I didn't realize it might be taken this way.

I meant to point out that every country has land, other people, and a government. Star Cannon (I have to admit, her name brings to mind america's planned missile defense system before meteorites and wishes) states that she likes the land, dislikes some people but likes others, and dislikes the government. she makes a giant generalization and fails to answer the question.

This thread began with:

fuck, I know I am.
Russia had the fall of the Berlin wall..
Germany had the fall of Hitler..
Italy had the fall of Mussolini..
what will the US have?
The fall of democracy can't happen because we do not live in a democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism).

The US is not a democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy) nation..

The idea of freedom of speech is all well and good except for the censorship in the media... in the government.. and so on..
Most people who answered have done everything in their power to avoid looking at these issues.

***OF COURSE*** america is beautiful, and we have given the world so much, like jazz and...fast food, and there are good people here...but that's not what we're fucking talking about, is it?

It's depressing to see people avoid the facts with wishful thinking, or by attacking anyone who says something they don't like. Am I anti-american? I don't think so...I'm not even sure what it means to be anti-american. I would love to see america better itself. I would love to be able to live in america with a clear conscience. Am I anti-bush? Sure, but that's unimportant, because WE, the american people are responsible for letting him get away with what he did. That's ME and YOU! Blaming Bush is just wishful thinking.



In my opinion, there is no validity in believing my assumption and opinion on this as a "truth" on a 'universal level'

what are you able to believe is a "truth" on a "universal level"? you've lost me with this.

[drop_motif]

I actually think these are bad examples. Both countries had to be defeated militarily, and had their current forms of government imposed on them by the Allies.

Let's not forget that america may be heading towards a military defeat in iraq right now.

[Mazirah]

Am I embarrassed to be an American? No. But I am extremely dissatisfied with Bush and those in the government who don't try to do anything to change the way things are.

I have no desire for America to wage wars all over the world just so rich businessmen can drop their capitalistic outposts in foreign lands. This war has nothing to do with "freeing the Iraqi people". America is too selfish for such a magnanimous act. This isn't even about the "war on terrorism." Which for the life of me I can't make sense of. How the hell do you fight a 'concept' with bullets and bombs? You can kill as many people as you want, but the ‘idea’ of terrorism will still live on. And as long as extremists find themselves wanting, terrorism will always be an option for them. Killing people that you suspect to be terrorist does not stop terrorism, it's a bloody-ass Band-Aid that's what it is. There are issues that need to be addressed. And besides, what's the percentage of dead terrorists out of everyone that's died during the Iraqi occupation. 2%? 3%? What difference has been made? People have lost families, and for what?

I have no problem being an American, but when people start equating American with Bushican I get a little PO'd. I dislike that man with the fury of a thousand suns. How a man so totally inept and illiterate can think that he should change the Constitution is beyond me. Hell... whatever happened to the "Compassionate Conservative?" Screw that, whatever happened to Osama Bin Laden? Soon as US troops caught Saddam, or the artist formally known as "You tried to kill my daddy!" Bush all but gave up. Now it's all about... Operation Iraqi Freedom... I thought he wouldn't rest till Osama was caught... yeah... sure... BS...

I gotta get out of this thread...

~Maz

[s]

I feel fortunate to be an American. I love my country, but excessive pride is considered a mortal sin for good reason.

[greenintp]

No.
But often I'm embarrassed to be Canadian. Check out our politicians!

Perhaps they should just go ahead and swallow both feet... before speaking. :-)

[s]

Oh Canada :whistle:

[candela]

No, not at all. Typically, I only see other Americans.

Pride is evil by the way.

[Arioch]

I am proud to be an American. I could have been born in the Middle East or somewhere else, where woman don't have any rights. I can go to school and make somthing of my self. The woman in those places are not allowed to go to school, or anything like that.

Looking at this thread I find myself drawing a lot of the statements here into question. They seem to be based on a lack of knowledge about most of the world outside of America. And as we all know a lack of information can and probably will cause a false conclusion.

For example the statement above. I haven't the patience to go into a big discussion on womens right all over the world so I shall concentrate on the school issue.

Fact A:
I've seen a lot of reports taken place in Iraq on various topics and I've seen a lot of Iraqi professors, curators etc who were... female. And I also know that there are educated women in

Dubai
Kuwait
Oman
Egypt
Iran (I think)
Turkey
Marocco
etc.

Fact B:
These countries are in the Middle East

If Fact A and B are correct (and of this I am quite sure) then women in the Middle East DO go to school. Which makes the above comment false.

:ph34r: Fear..... the Truth! :ph34r:

Just kidding.

[HairlessBluetick]

I am proud to be an American. I could have been born in the Middle East or somewhere else, where woman don't have any rights. I can go to school and make somthing of my self. The woman in those places are not allowed to go to school, or anything like that.

Fact A:
I've seen a lot of reports taken place in Iraq on various topics and I've seen a lot of Iraqi professors, curators etc who were... female.

Reports from when, out of curiosity?

[Arioch]

I am proud to be an American. I could have been born in the Middle East or somewhere else, where woman don't have any rights. I can go to school and make somthing of my self. The woman in those places are not allowed to go to school, or anything like that.

Fact A:
I've seen a lot of reports taken place in Iraq on various topics and I've seen a lot of Iraqi professors, curators etc who were... female.

Reports from when, out of curiosity?

Both from when Saddam ruled (although not that many) and from afterwards. For example there was this woman who had a docterate in... some field in History and she had been the curator of a Museam in Iraq for quite some years. <shiver> I was horrified when she talked about all the Mesopotamian artifacts that were destroyed by looting after Saddam fell.

The cradle of civilisation.. and it's artifacts were mindlessly destroyed and stolen to be sold to collectors across the world. Such a aweful aweful waste.

[Melody]

How would one be living off of third-worlders who make clothes? What if Americans did not wear clothes? The third worlders would not have jobs.


i can't tell if this is a joke or not. i just found you guys, but i wouldn't expect the members of such a board to let this issue go unexamined.

we live off the third worlders by taking their energy, not their clothes. whether that means taking their oil, or using them as slaves to sew our tracksuits, the fact is that america would be a much different place if it didn't exploit others.

the fact that americans don't NEED to wear clothes is a straw man. the idea that we provide third worlders with "jobs" misses the point. it's the conditions of the "job" that determine if it is considered slavery.
This belligerent, moronic motherfucker.

Trying to remain civilized? You fail. You get an F. A 4%. Two marks out of ninety. Negative extra credit. See, I don't bullshit. If I think you are retarded, I tell you. If you are going to insult someone, do it cleanly. Don't dance about the target like some Runga-Kutta algorithm. You are a dick and you are not good at hiding it.

:rofl:

;P



Let's play a Socratic game.

How would the lives of third-world people be if America did not exist compared to America existing?

[s]

How would one be living off of third-worlders who make clothes? What if Americans did not wear clothes? The third worlders would not have jobs.


i can't tell if this is a joke or not. i just found you guys, but i wouldn't expect the members of such a board to let this issue go unexamined.

we live off the third worlders by taking their energy, not their clothes. whether that means taking their oil, or using them as slaves to sew our tracksuits, the fact is that america would be a much different place if it didn't exploit others.

the fact that americans don't NEED to wear clothes is a straw man. the idea that we provide third worlders with "jobs" misses the point. it's the conditions of the "job" that determine if it is considered slavery.
This belligerent, moronic motherfucker.

Trying to remain civilized? You fail. You get an F. A 4%. Two marks out of ninety. Negative extra credit. See, I don't bullshit. If I think you are retarded, I tell you. If you are going to insult someone, do it cleanly. Don't dance about the target like some Runga-Kutta algorithm. You are a dick and you are not good at hiding it.

:rofl:

;P



Let's play a Socratic game.

How would the lives of third-world people be if America did not exist compared to America existing?

Okay, let's play.

Who is being a disrespectful emotional dick?

edit: I haven't really read many of drop_motifs posts, but I do not think this excerpt of his is either wholly incorrect in reasoning or malicious.

[Melody]

Would you like to answer that question about America and third-worlders? I do not care who helps me along, I just want to reach a stable conclusion.

And, I think you should read all the posts of a topic before posting in it. =b

[s]

Would you like to answer that question about America and third-worlders? I do not care who helps me along, I just want to reach a stable conclusion.

And, I think you should read all the posts of a topic before posting. =b

I read quite a bit, but what you quoted him as saying was nothing inflammatory, but your language was. I will be happy to play along, but if you resort to emotional name calling, I will just ignore you.

[Johnny]

How would the lives of third-world people be if America did not exist compared to America existing?

They would be awash in the loving embrace of Nazi rule.

:sombrero:

[Division56]

America is ambition that outstrips education.

[s]

How would the lives of third-world people be if America did not exist compared to America existing?

They would be awash in the loving embrace of Nazi rule.

:sombrero:

If America never existed, then the NAZI party may not have come to power in a hungry post-world war I Germany. We cannot prove anything about the state of the world had the US never existed, because of the infinite possibilties--which can fun, but does not address the issue of the US and its relationship with the third world. Perhaps Mexico or England would be leading the world now... maybe Stalin's iron grip.

Socratic questioning usually depends on a rapid fire of short questions and the goal is to create a deeper understanding of a subject, by a teacher usually. Here is an example:

Do we affect the living standards of the third world?

Do we affect the standards in a negative way?

Why/why not?

Clarify?

Do we have a responsibilty to maintain /improve standards when dealing with another country?

Why/why not?

Does depressing the standards of another country improve our standards of living?

How so, provide proof.

Does it depress wages for American workers?

Can it?

Does it depress American's work standards?

Could it?

Does an attempt leveling the playing field hurt either country?

Do you believe in moral obligations, business ethics or fair trade?

Why/why not?

Have you ever seen poor work conditions first hand?

Who benefits from fair trade? Who does not?


I can sorta play along, but can only do so in short bursts from my handy laptop and WI/FI.

Whether Drop_motif is a jack ass or not, is not my place to say. Even if someone posts a hundred posts I disagree with, I will still approach their 101st with an open mind, as a true INTP is open minded. I am not playing devil's advocate, but rather acknowledging that what you quoted him as saying was a legitimate position. I will say, however, that using an ad hominem argument is weak. It is totally nothing personal, since Johnny was at odds with Drop_motif and I enjoy reading Johnny's point of view and laughing with him.

Let us be gentleman...

[Johnny]

If America never existed, then the NAZI party may not have come to power in a hungry post-world war I Germany...

It is totally nothing personal, since Johnny was at odds with Drop_motif and I enjoy reading Johnny's point of view and laughing with him.

Let us be gentleman...

It's not America's fault that Germany got their noses rubbed in their first loss so hard they ended up turning into vicious animals. Wilson tried the first time around with the League of Nations!

O.K., I admit it. I do miss drop_motif. That was the first time I was able to engage another member in that manner and not have my thread hidden...hidden fruit... :lol:

Maybe he took that energy and joined the International Red Cross after all... :sombrero:

[s]

If America never existed, then the NAZI party may not have come to power in a hungry post-world war I Germany...

It is totally nothing personal, since Johnny was at odds with Drop_motif and I enjoy reading Johnny's point of view and laughing with him.

Let us be gentleman...

It's not America's fault that Germany got their noses rubbed in their first loss so hard they ended up turning into vicious animals. Wilson tried the first time around with the League of Nations!

O.K., I admit it. I do miss drop_motif. That was the first time I was able to engage another member in that manner and not have my thread hidden...hidden fruit... :lol:

Maybe he took that energy and joined the International Red Cross after all... :sombrero:

Fault for allowing the Nazi party to take control should be shared by the world. However, I am not arguing fault, but merely that we do not know what the world would be like had the US never existed. That is fodder for Quantum Leap-like entertainment. Did Drop leave?

Scary stuff:
http://www2.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/20/germany.elections/

[Johnny]

Fault for allowing the Nazi party to take control should be shared by the world.

Yes, we are in agreement. This is exactly what I meant in my reference to the League of Nations.

[s]

Yea, I was just covering my arse.

So did Drop leave?

[Johnny]

I have no idea, but who knows?

[s]

Ah, Johnny... I just noticed you are a 9 w 1... makes sense.

Balanced 5,

[Division56]

Ah, Johnny... I just noticed you are a 9 w 1... makes sense.

Balanced 5,


*nods*

[Melody]

I read quite a bit, but what you quoted him as saying was nothing inflammatory, but your language was. I will be happy to play along, but if you resort to emotional name calling, I will just ignore you.
"Quite a bit?"

When did I say I was just talking about that particular post?




How would the lives of third-world people be if America did not exist compared to America existing?

They would be awash in the loving embrace of Nazi rule.

:sombrero:

If America never existed, then the NAZI party may not have come to power in a hungry post-world war I Germany. We cannot prove anything about the state of the world had the US never existed, because of the infinite possibilties--which can fun, but does not address the issue of the US and its relationship with the third world. Perhaps Mexico or England would be leading the world now... maybe Stalin's iron grip.

Socratic questioning usually depends on a rapid fire of short questions and the goal is to create a deeper understanding of a subject, by a teacher usually. Here is an example:

Do we affect the living standards of the third world?

Do we affect the standards in a negative way?

Why/why not?

Clarify?

Do we have a responsibilty to maintain /improve standards when dealing with another country?

Why/why not?

Does depressing the standards of another country improve our standards of living?

How so, provide proof.

Does it depress wages for American workers?

Can it?

Does it depress American's work standards?

Could it?

Does an attempt leveling the playing field hurt either country?

Do you believe in moral obligations, business ethics or fair trade?

Why/why not?

Have you ever seen poor work conditions first hand?

Who benefits from fair trade? Who does not?


I can sorta play along, but can only do so in short bursts from my handy laptop and WI/FI.

Whether Drop_motif is a jack ass or not, is not my place to say. Even if someone posts a hundred posts I disagree with, I will still approach their 101st with an open mind, as a true INTP is open minded. I am not playing devil's advocate, but rather acknowledging that what you quoted him as saying was a legitimate position. I will say, however, that using an ad hominem argument is weak. It is totally nothing personal, since Johnny was at odds with Drop_motif and I enjoy reading Johnny's point of view and laughing with him.

Let us be gentleman...

Yeh, yeh. I know the Socratic method. >_> But as you pointed out yourself, there are too many possibilities to analyze such a question at such a level. I want a higher-level response. Why? Because I am certain the reasoning used to support either of the sides was not analyzed at a low level.

Allow me riddance of some observations.

To me, the issue is about 3rd worlders either having or not having jobs.

Possibly it will be reasoned that a superpower would exist at any given time, be it America or some other. Then the issue is simplified, so in a sense, the 3rd worlders would always have jobs. The question is then, "How humane are the jobs?" Currently, they are likely not humane. This is the perspective I believe drop_motif is using.

However, the reasoning that a superpower of America's caliber, interested in hiring the 3rd worlders and being fully capable of doing it, would exist at any given time is in my opinion a stretch. Secondly, as inhumane as those jobs may seem to us, they may not be bad for the 3rd worlders. I am fully aware that some things are simply unacceptable, but how do we know they are unacceptable? Can anyone point me to a nonpartisan, nonreligious source that describes the working conditions of various work places of various companies in various locations?


"Belligerent" is the only word I spoke in concrete. "Moronic" and "motherfucker" are tasteful addendums. drop_motif's ownership of belligerence is the only reason why I am not impressed by them.

[Ckyzxr]

Wow...this is the first thread that I've read here that disintegrated in a flame war. And for good fun I'm going to jump and...

answer the original post.

I'm not embarrassed to be an American since I have as much control over my "Americanness" as I have over my race or sexual orientation. I was born here and have a default American citizenship which means that no matter what I say, I'm legally and recognized as an American.

If you ask if I'm embarrassed due to the actions taken by my government, representatives, and citizens of my country...well no. I have little control over that either. People perceive their actions to be for the greater good of something which leads to strange behaviors when their reasonings are founded on "concrete" concepts like religion, progress, and patriotism, not to mention fear.

What we are as far as a governmental entity ultimately has little to do with the validity of our behaviors as a country. Which, once again, I have little control over.

I'm not really a part of all of this, I'm JAFO. :D

[Johnny]

...a nonpartisan, nonreligious source...

Is this what the Socratic Method is supposed to achieve? :lol:

Good luck... :sombrero:

[Boozer]

No I love america, but I am embarassed of Bush and the state of our democracy (we need WORKING election reform, oust the special intrests!)

[MacGuffin]

No I love america, but I am embarassed of Bush and the state of our democracy (we need WORKING election reform, oust the special intrests!)

Everyone has interests. You could even call them special interests. And with the freedom of speech, combined with the freedom of association - you get, that's right, special interest groups.

[s]

Are you an INTP, Melody? Oh well, it doesn't matter. I was prodding you for a fun and fruitful debate on Drop's position, but you are not equipped to play with me. Your attempt at Socratic method drew my attention in the first place. Don't take it personally, I think you are a talented and witty artist and I enjoy many of your posts. This is not a flame war, boys.

INTP, balanced five

[Melody]

Are you an INTP, Melody?
I do not place myself into this label anymore. I am a god. In fact, god is not enough to describe me. I am far beyond that.


I was prodding you for a fun and fruitful debate on Drop's position, but you are not equipped to play with me.
Can you show me the exact words which I wrote to make you reach this conclusion? I assume you are saying I said something insulting. I would like to see the precise words you based your decision on. If you do not want to quote them, tell me what paragraph they are in.

I wrote some observations. You do not want to comment on them?

[s]

Are you an INTP, Melody?
I do not place myself into this label anymore. I am a god. In fact, god is not enough to describe me. I am far beyond that.


I was prodding you for a fun and fruitful debate on Drop's position, but you are not equipped to play with me.
Can you show me the exact words which I wrote to make you reach this conclusion? I assume you are saying I said something insulting. I would like to see the precise words you based your decision on. If you do not want to quote them, tell me what paragraph they are in.

I wrote some observations. You do not want to comment on them?

You did not answer mine, as well.

I repeat: "you are not equipped to play with me," so I won't play. If you do not understand what I imply, this further makes my point; we do not communicate in a compatible manner.

You quoted Drop_motif and in an emotional fit, belittled his position without backing up yours and then challenged him to something you do not clearly understand. Did you quote him on one topic, then rail him on another? (I no longer care and I am sure others feel the same.) I only wished to defend his point (the one you quoted regarding the third world and workers) as a valid position and challenge you in your knowledge of Socratic methodology. I will yield for the sake of peace (looking to those 9's for inspiration). ;)

I can foresee a downward spiral and do not enjoy arguing against illogic nor upsetting you further. If I decided to continue, you will not "win" anything and I do not pursue anything not worth placing in my crown.

M'ijo, I didn't think you were an INTP... more like an ISFP.

happppy

INTP, enneagram balanced 5, and mild sociopath,

[Melody]

Ah, I see. What I meant by

"Belligerent" is the only word I spoke in concrete.
is that I am not questioning their intelligence. I was agitated only by the belligerent remarks. If I was questioning their intelligence, I would have assumed I am correct and not pursued the issue further. I think I will point specifically to those things which agitated me in the rants forum.

I am trying to see why drop_motif is so sure that I am incorrect and they are correct about the 3rd worlder issue. Since you agree with drop_motif, I am guessing you are using similar logic to arrive at that conclusion, and I want to know what that logic is. I am of course speaking of the 3rd worlder issue, not whether I am correct or not. ;P

What is it that I "do not clearly understand?" The Socratic Method? I clarified that I did not want to meander at that level, but wanted higher-level answers. If you believe this renders the ensuing discourse unSocratic, fine. ^_^ I will call the higher-level method "The Melodic Method."

So, I would like to know what is the reasoning you are using to reach the conclusion that America is exploiting 3rd worlders. Is it similar to what drop_motif used?

we live off the third worlders by taking their energy, not their clothes. whether that means taking their oil, or using them as slaves to sew our tracksuits, the fact is that america would be a much different place if it didn't exploit others.

the fact that americans don't NEED to wear clothes is a straw man. the idea that we provide third worlders with "jobs" misses the point. it's the conditions of the "job" that determine if it is considered slavery.

[s]

Better.

Okay, then let's both use your Melodic Method, but first list your reasonings on how we do not exploit third world countries. I need to understand your method, before I can use it. ;)

I doubt my logic is exactly the same as Drop_motif's and there is rarely ever a "black and white" answer (save for the racism threads where the answers are literally "black" and "white").

Do you believe we that we do not exploit? (edit)

[Vagabond]

Um I have trouble seeing Melody as a Sensor... big time trouble.

[s]

Extroverted sensing is hard to see for an artist?

[Vagabond]

Extroverted sensing is hard to see for an artist?
I didn't say I can't see an artist being a Sensor, I was talking about Melody in particular.

[Johnny]

I still propose the matter get settled with an old-fashioned tractor pull. Commitment to such embarrassment (or lack thereof) can't be determined any other way.

And by the way, racism is a con game. There is still and has always been only one human race...with or without the emergence of hip hop.

:sombrero:

[s]

I still propose the matter get settled with an old-fashioned tractor pull. Commitment to such embarrassment (or lack thereof) can't be determined any other way.

And by the way, racism is a con game. There is still and has always been only one human race...with or without the emergence of hip hop.

:sombrero:

Yep.

The hip hop comment was too funny. Maybe the craziest thing I have hear in a while.

I still haven't been to a tractor pull.

I will just yield due to not giving a shit.

[Melody]

Extroverted sensing is hard to see for an artist?
I didn't say I can't see an artist being a Sensor, I was talking about Melody in particular.
Yay! Vagabond likes, or doesn't hate, me. :hug: I feel so connected.

[Avengardh]

Wtf happened in here? Lol!

*Hugs everyone who wants it*

Peace peeps, peace (yes, my sig is so true).

~*Aven*~

[Melody]

...but first list your reasonings on how we do not exploit third world countries...
Allrighty. Actually, the more I delve into this 3rd worlder issue, the harder it is for me to grasp.

Because, they might be better off with America handing them jobs, but that does not mean they are not being exploited. >_>

Let me perform a Melodic transform on this problem.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/tocca/melodictransformofthirdworld-americarelation.png

This results in

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/tocca/resultofmelodictransformofthirdworldamericarelation.gif.

Aha! So what you guys are saying is that America is taking advantage of third-worlders because America "has them by the balls" so-to-speak. The third-worlders have no choice but to accept any job they are offered because of their situations.

Is this the general argument why America is exploiting 3rd-worlders?

Actually, I do not have a reason why America is not exploiting them. But, just because they do not have a choice about working for America does not mean they are being exploited. America might be giving them great jobs.

I think it depends on the actual quality of the work places, and I believe the issue cannot be finalized by hypothetic analysis.

In other words, I think the answer to the question "Is America exploiting third-worlders?" Can only be found by taking a trip to those third-world countries (with a video camera -- some of those countries are filled with luscious green ^_^) and visiting a bunch of American-owned work sites.

I do not have to say this, but feel free to run a truck through any holes.

[SensEye]

Kudos to Melody for finally establishing a position.

I have been following this thread bemusedly watching you guys pass ball back an forth with "when are you going to address my points" when near as I could tell, nobody had made any concrete points and nobody really had any idea what the other person wanted them to address.


Off topic side note to Aven> I am taking your 10:48pm post as vindication of my earlier characterization of you as a borderline F (which I believe you found incredulous at the time). :D

[Avengardh]

Kudos to Melody for finally establishing a position.

I have been following this thread bemusedly watching you guys pass ball back an forth with "when are you going to address my points" when near as I could tell, nobody had made any concrete points and nobody really had any idea what the other person wanted them to address.


Off topic side note to Aven> I am taking your 10:48pm post as vindication of my earlier characterization of you as a borderline F (which I believe you found incredulous at the time). :D

I was just waiting for you to say something like this, I'm surprised you haven't looked somewhere else to get it. ;)

I agree with Melody, it depends where you go though, although in my opinion the governments that agree to let their people be exploited also have to do something with it, as well as the people who take it and the people that implement it.

Oh, and SE, if I didn't know better, I would take you for a borderline J, but I don't do that (don't tell me, that also makes me appear as a borderline F, :rofl:).

~*Aven*~

[s]

There is plenty of footage and information of third world/US Corporations/sub-contractor conditions out there already. I am quite familiar with this subject and if you think that obscenely long hours, paying less than even minimum wage established by the other country, and other conditions are not exploitation then we will not be able to come to a conclusion. Have you even ever been to a maquiladora in Mexico? I have and I even know people that own them. Some are descent and some are horrid. There are numerous cases of rape by supervisors and extortion, plus severely unsafe conditions, such as exposure to carcinogens, at plants who make American name brand products. Ignorance is indeed bliss.

And I like you just fine anyway.

edit: The other countries do at times avert their eyes, but this does not lessen the guilt on the multinational corporations's end. Giving a kick back and a wink does not make for ethical business practice.

International Business Major turned Humanities major,

[SensEye]

I was just waiting for you to say something like this, I'm surprised you haven't looked somewhere else to get it. ;)

I agree with Melody, it depends where you go though, although in my opinion the governments that agree to let their people be exploited also have to do something with it, as well as the people who take it and the people that implement it.

Oh, and SE, if I didn't know better, I would take you for a borderline J, but I don't do that (don't tell me, that also makes me appear as a borderline F, :rofl:).

~*Aven*~

Well I could have gone elsewhere, that's how I came to my conclusion in the first place. I was going to let it go but this was just too much to resist. :devil:

BTW, I have admitted on my earlier posts to being an INTx, so you're doomed. But your perception is working fine. ;)

[Google Monster]

B)

[Melody]

Some are descent and some are horrid.
So, you are essentially agreeing with me that it depends on the particular location/organization?

[s]

Some are descent and some are horrid.
So, you are essentially agreeing with me that it depends on the particular location/organization?

Turn on the synthesis switch.
[click]

[click]

[click]

Not working, hmmm...

I could have sworn I read:


In other words, I think the answer to the question "Is America exploiting third-worlders?" Can only be found by taking a trip to those third-world countries (with a video camera -- some of those countries are filled with luscious green ^_^) and visiting a bunch of American-owned work sites.


A pattern of widespread exploitation indicates a problem that needs to be addressed. At no point, was the statement "American always exploits." Instead, the issue was whether "American exploits."

[Melody]

A pattern of widespread exploitation indicates a problem that needs to be addressed. At no point, was the statement "American always exploits." Instead, the issue was whether "Americans exploits."1)
...whether "Americans exploits."2)
...pattern of widespread exploitation...
#1 is boolean. It can be either true or false. #2, however, is related to something more like a range. I.e., the degree to which America exploits. So, which one are you going along with? I know we have some communicative barrier, but bear along. Maybe you meant

3) "...whether America's exploitation is widespread."

Because, if America's exploitation is not widespread, then the problem is not as significant as if it were widespread.

So, I think we are in agreement. Where we disagree is whether the problem is actually widespread or not. What if you just happened to see a bunch of bad apples? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you about how widespread it is, and if this were some other issue, I would probably agree with you without question. The reason I do not is because this deals with America, and America gets bad speak just because it is at the top. I know it is not difficult for media and people to present only the negative aspects of a situation, so I am quick to ask myself whether criticisms of America are legitimate or not.

Certainly if there is some place where workers are being exploited, I would hope somebody would do something about it. Certainly not me, though.

Sometimes I wish I was rich just to fuck with entire organizations.

[booyalab]

I don't understand why people take all the problems and quirks of an entity like , oh say the U.S. Government, and then let it all consume them. It seems to produce a creepy complex which can't be remedied because the things that are at the root are perceptions and attitudes, and the person affected by it is being affected because they want to and it gives them something to live for and fight for. I know people who are making their hatred for G.W. the center of their being, and if you think about it, that's the same mentallity super villains have. I'm not saying liberals are super villains, I just don't think the anti-bush or anti-America or anti-french, even, mind-set is healthy or rational.

[s]

<_< Damn, I just noticed the rebuttal and I was about to go work out.

Wake up... hey, you in the back. :zzz:

Ok, Melody you here? :huh:

Check.

[Nods at Claverhouse]

Looks like I can begin now.

:mellow: :huh: :mellow: :mellow: :mellow: :mellow: :ph34r:

You keep changing the argument and your positions. :blink:

Maybe you would like more specific numbers and examples at this point.

Walmart is huge, right? Okay, "October 1999 to March 2000-a search of U.S. Customs Department shipping records made available in the PIERS database, show that 53 percent of Wal-Mart’s total imports worldwide come from China." When a factory such as the Qin Shi Factory in China, produces a product for a Wal-mart line and the average work week is 96 hours, the workers live in cramped dorms, are withheld first month pay, and are only allowed to leave a couple hours a day, and many other indignities, this proves exploitation of workers. :o

Do you think that this sets a precedence for other factories in the region as well as the country? If you owned a company would you pay China's minimum wage when it is not being enforced at the Wal-Mart subcontractor down the road? Would you really? Factory owners are not charity workers and must remain competitive, vying for contracts. Exploitation is a plague that only get bigger when unchecked. Allowing this wage suppression can easily create a domino effect we can already feel here at home in the states (as American workers are not competitive against these standards). :thumbdow:

Your new position/argument is that it is not as widespread as I think... or maybe I have lost track of your arguments. My argument is still that the US does in fact exploit workers and there is PLENTY of proof. How much exploitation does it require to make this statement true: "The US exploits foreign workers." It actually only takes two workers to make this true, but to give it weight there must be a larger number. The argument at no time was about seeking to draw a line in the sand and say, "more than 10 million workers and we can say the US exploits." Please refer to my last post as well. Synthesis involves looking at the whole, not only the parts.

Orginal issue: Does the US exploit foreign workers? :unsure:

Yes. :mellow:

Not related to this original argument: Yes, some US factories improve communities. Yes, the bad apples spoil the bunch. Yes, bad conditions create bad press tainting the good name of the US. Yes, there is more than enough proof of exploitation. Yes, the US is responsible to correct these issues of exploitation. Yes, permiting low standards lowers the playing field for the American worker and others abroad. Yes, business is about the bottom line. Yes, Bush Admistration is over run by neo-liberals. :rant:

[clears throat]
[channels JFK and Roosevelt]

I love my country, but hate some of her policies, policy makers, and those who taint her good name. If America, kills or exploits one innocent, then I do not say, "oh well, it was only one," I instead say, " it must never happen again."

[thinking to myself: Yes, that may make me morally superior and I may look a little like a crazy charismatic leader up here *looks to Claverhouse*, but so freakin' what?]

:D


Thank you and good night. :mellow:

[leaving podium to watch the real debates and adjusts diadem]

:sombrero:


"Oh, hey, Johnny. You are late. You want the spotlight again?"

[Avengardh]

I was just waiting for you to say something like this, I'm surprised you haven't looked somewhere else to get it. ;)

I agree with Melody, it depends where you go though, although in my opinion the governments that agree to let their people be exploited also have to do something with it, as well as the people who take it and the people that implement it.

Oh, and SE, if I didn't know better, I would take you for a borderline J, but I don't do that (don't tell me, that also makes me appear as a borderline F, :rofl:).

~*Aven*~

Well I could have gone elsewhere, that's how I came to my conclusion in the first place. I was going to let it go but this was just too much to resist. :devil:
BTW, I have admitted on my earlier posts to being an INTx, so you're doomed. But your perception is working fine. ;)

Exactly my point, good to know you can't resist temptations ^_^

And what do you know, my P IS working fine :D

~*Aven*~

[Claverhouse]

I haven't posted here because a/ I'm not American; b/ The concept of Shame is alien to me.


But actually I have to agree with s's last post enormously. Naturally I blame Liberalism in all it's forms: however I would also point out that America exploits it's own citizens too. An excellent book by Eric Schlosser, Fast Food Nation, although it's theme is as implied, brings out this point. Not a socialist but I'd have liked Upton Sinclair to have become Governor of California....

[ There's an iconoclast for you s ! ]

As for the inevitable historical processes that led to this universal exploitation by, not America, but certain of America's cliques and institutions, perhaps they let the mass of Americans off the hook. [ Although they are culpable insofar as they remain willing dupes ].

Since 1/ There will never be a socialist revolution in America of any socialist kind; and, 2/ It would probably be undesirable anyway --- various usual outcomes: I imagine that this remains one of those things which people never honestly contemplate, something to which there is no solution.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[SensEye]

OK Aven, now just edit your signature to read T(15%) and we can let this matter rest. ;P

[Avengardh]

But me likes the scores....*sniffle*

I am going to go cry now....

[Johnny]

:sombrero:

"Oh, hey, Johnny. You are late. You want the spotlight again?"

I think you accidentally smashed the bulb when you attempted to swing your movie camera around for that 3rd world documentary you were threatening to film. :lol:

I am not a Republican, am no conservative, and will likely never understand what appear to me as sacrifices for the wonder and beauty of the future. But at the same time I very much enjoy game and working hard.

We must not forget Tiananmen Square. They've earned it. Let them play too! :sombrero:

[s]

But me likes the scores....*sniffle*

I am going to go cry now....


Maybe she has just evolved her feeling side. Leave her alone!!!
;P

[s]

:sombrero:

"Oh, hey, Johnny. You are late. You want the spotlight again?"

I think you accidentally smashed the bulb when you attempted to swing your movie camera around for that 3rd world documentary you were threatening to film. :lol:

I am not a Republican, am no conservative, and will likely never understand what appear to me as sacrifices for the wonder and beauty of the future. But at the same time I very much enjoy game and working hard.

We must not forget Tiananmen Square. They've earned it. Let them play too! :sombrero:

Woah, was I threatening to film...or do you mean Melody was...?

Working hard is admirable and important to the productivity of our country, but our forefathers worked hard at the turn of the last century to ensure we would be where we are today. I won't give up those worker rights nor contribute to the virtual indentured serivitude of others....certainly not for shit from the Kathy Lee Gifford line. :)

I loosely consider myself a Bullmoose "progressive party" type. I am quite fond of Teddy Roosevelt.

Mr. Johnny didn't appreciate his cameo? :D

Claverhouse: I love Upton Sinclair! I do love iconoclasts... ;)


EDIT: Claverhouse, thanks for writing the stanza which includes, "US...and cliques" in your last post. Well, put, sir.

[Avengardh]

But me likes the scores....*sniffle*

I am going to go cry now....


Maybe she has just evolved her feeling side. Leave her alone!!!
;P

LOL, I have, somewhat (still don't prefer the sympathy/empathy issue though), to be honest (but thanks anyway ^_^), and SE is cool, no hurt "feelings" here. Just joking around.

~*Aven*~

[drop_motif]

Wow! I've missed so much.

Most important development: the Melodic Method.

Althought I may not really understand how it works, I'd like to give it a try.

I will now perform a Melodic Transform on what I think is happening here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/drop_motif/melodictransformofjesus-americarelation.jpg

This results in:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/drop_motif/onevote.jpg

Did I do it right?

[s]

But me likes the scores....*sniffle*

I am going to go cry now....


Maybe she has just evolved her feeling side. Leave her alone!!!
;P

LOL, I have, somewhat (still don't prefer the sympathy/empathy issue though), to be honest (but thanks anyway ^_^), and SE is cool, no hurt "feelings" here. Just joking around.

~*Aven*~


Yea, I know it is all in fun (if I didn't, I would be wuppin' ass right now... at least with smilies). :D

[s]

Wow! I've missed so much.

Most important development: the Melodic Method.

Althought I may not really understand how it works, I'd like to give it a try.

I will now perform a Melodic Transform on what I think is happening here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/drop_motif/melodictransformofjesus-americarelation.jpg

This results in:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/drop_motif/onevote.jpg

Did I do it right?

How did I miss your entrance?

Well, see what you created? You love it, no?

I smell another iconoclast.

:D

[s]

Melody...


:cheers:

You are a damn good sport.


:thumbup:


S-

[Johnny]

Woah, was I threatening to film...or do you mean Melody was...?

I loosely consider myself a Bullmoose "progressive party" type. I am quite fond of Teddy Roosevelt.

Melody only suggested it. You called him on it:

Have you even ever been to a maquiladora in Mexico? I have and I even know people that own them...rape...extortion...carcinogens... mak[ing] American name brand products...

The Teddy Roosevelt I recall championed the fantasy of war and heroism, taking on peasants with pitchforks from a distance and wielding his pistol with great glee. That particular progressive party ended quickly when his son came back from the trenches of WWI in a body bag. Sorry, I'm having difficulty recalling his good deeds... :sombrero:

[MacGuffin]

[The Teddy Roosevelt I recall championed the fantasy of war and heroism, taking on peasants with pitchforks from a distance and wielding his pistol with great glee. That particular progressive party ended quickly when his son came back from the trenches of WWI in a body bag. Sorry, I'm having difficulty recalling his good deeds... :sombrero:

He wasn't that simplistic:

He was a conservationist: created 5 National Parks, 18 National Monuments, and many National Forests.

He was the first U.S. president to invite a black man (Booker T. Washington) to dine at the White House.

He went after trusts and monopolies.

He helped negotiate several peace treaties and won the 1906 Nobel Peace Prize.

Got Congress to pass the Pure Food and Meat Inspection laws.

Advocated for the League of Nations.

And I particularly like this one:


Viewed purely in the abstract, I think there can be no question that women should have equal rights with men.... Especially as regards the laws relating to marriage there should be the most absolute equality between the two sexes. I do not think the woman should assume the man's name.
-"The Practicability of Equalizing Men and Women before the Law"
Theodore Roosevelt, Senior thesis at Harvard, 1880

I agree that Roosevelt was too quick to intervene militarily, but that is not everything he was about. And at that time, isolationalism might have been an even worse decision.

Finally I like how Time Magazine put it:

They don't hold White House lunches the way they used to at the beginning of the century. On Jan. 1, 1907, for example, the guest list was as follows: a Nobel prizewinner, a physical culturalist, a naval historian, a biographer, an essayist, a paleontologist, a taxidermist, an ornithologist, a field naturalist, a conservationist, a big-game hunter, an editor, a critic, a ranchman, an orator, a country squire, a civil service reformer, a socialite, a patron of the arts, a colonel of the cavalry, a former Governor of New York, the ranking expert on big-game mammals in North America and the President of the U.S.

All these men were named Theodore Roosevelt.

[Johnny]

Thanks, Dart...um, I mean MacGuffin. :sombrero:

[Melody]

drop_motif has mastered the Melodic Transform.

s, I was saying that I will not agree or disagree with you because I have not seen the evidence myself. If you have, good.

I want to point out again that either way none of us are going to do a thing about it. We may say something like, "...we make sure it never happens again!" but it does not quite directly affect us, so we go back to playing videogames. If someone made a documentary a la Moore, that might be good. ^_^ But, as the god Melody once said,


People sitting in a circle stroking eachother's dicks controls the population.

[Claverhouse]

. That particular progressive party ended quickly when his son came back from the trenches of WWI in a body bag.

Just like Kipling ( possibly a friend of Teddy ? ), our own bard of war, fine writer and often great poet, who was fearfully cut up by the death of his son, as if it was unfair. And descended into that hideous circle of hell known as Teutonophobia, blaming that excellent people not only for the sins they had committed, but those which it was impossible for them to commit ( especially when we had committed them first... ). It is an awful thought that had he lived into the madness of the Second World War, the author of Plain Tales from the Hills, The Jungle Book & To the True Romance ( 'Thy face is far from this our war...' ) would have joined the disgusting Robert Vansittart & Ilya Erhenburg in further hatred-inducement.

I don't in the least care for Roosevelt I, he who had never been nearer war than the opera-bouffant 'Rough-Riders' criticised the war-courage of greater men than he; but he did bust a few trusts & he wasn't Roosevelt II. Which is something to say, same as at least Neville Chamberlain wasn't Winston Churchill.

Any deranged feminist thinking doesn't surprise me in the least. He was part of the young punks of the Ibsen Generation, after all.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Claverhouse]

But, as the god Melody once said,


People sitting in a circle stroking eachother's dicks controls the population.

Or gets them arrested by the gendarmes.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[s]

Woah, was I threatening to film...or do you mean Melody was...?

I loosely consider myself a Bullmoose "progressive party" type. I am quite fond of Teddy Roosevelt.

Melody only suggested it. You called him on it:

Have you even ever been to a maquiladora in Mexico? I have and I even know people that own them...rape...extortion...carcinogens... mak[ing] American name brand products...

The Teddy Roosevelt I recall championed the fantasy of war and heroism, taking on peasants with pitchforks from a distance and wielding his pistol with great glee. That particular progressive party ended quickly when his son came back from the trenches of WWI in a body bag. Sorry, I'm having difficulty recalling his good deeds... :sombrero:

Conservation of the environment, women's suffrage, personal responsibilty, and he was against neo-liberalism. DarthVader filled in the rest :) I never said he was perfect, but in context of the period of history, he was quite brilliant. Being from a long line of Texans, I am aware of his pitfalls. ;)

[Johnny]

I never said he was perfect, but in context of the period of history, he was quite brilliant. Being from a long line of Texans, I am aware of his pitfalls.

:lol:

Yes. How does the line go? "I didn't walk across the Gulf to get here..."

:sombrero:

[s]

I didn't cross any border... the border crossed ME!!!! :rofl:

[Johnny]

...the opera-bouffant 'Rough-Riders'...

I just can't top this insight, but I couldn't help quoting it for emphasis... :rofl:

[s]

Is an "opera-bouffant" like an "opera bouffe"... perhaps with bigger coiffures?



I wish presidents led their men into battle.

[Misty_Kye]

I love my country, but hate some of her policies, policy makers, and those who taint her good name.

I live in a beautiful country…a vast land
Ditto on above comments. I am NOT embarrassed to be a citizen of the U.S. (I know that the citizens of this country did not create the beauty of the land, but it is a part of this country that I enjoy immensely. )
;P

On all the bad things in the States: It seems like the media only deems the worst elements of a story as news worthy. I’ve seen the story behind the news enough times to seriously question what I see on the news. Not that I don’t believe what they are saying, but I always wonder what else is going on, what aren’t they telling me.

[Claverhouse]

Not that I don’t believe what they are saying, but I always wonder what else is going on, what aren’t they telling me.


Probably something very, very, very bad indeed.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[flan2dave]

While my search was spurred by the foreknowledge of a website that lists products that come from the most exploitive of conditions, I came up with at least this interesting read to replace the failed search (maybe someone else knows about the site?):

http://crimethinc.com/library/english/veganism.html

It comes from a different direction but arrives at the same issue as worker/foreign worker exploitation.

I worked at a quite descent restaraunt, but it is just another expoitation no matter how nice the conditions, or how wide the cage so to speak. I smirk when the owner goads waiters into working extra hours by telling them how many hours she puts in, which is irrelevant given her position. I can work non stop if it is at my own volition, as can anybody in truth.

[Arioch]

Viewed purely in the abstract, I think there can be no question that women should have equal rights with men.... Especially as regards the laws relating to marriage there should be the most absolute equality between the two sexes. I do not think the woman should assume the man's name.
-"The Practicability of Equalizing Men and Women before the Law"
Theodore Roosevelt, Senior thesis at Harvard, 1880


I agree with this. A woman taking her husbands way is a symbol of belonging to a man. And ironically the ring that steriotypical women seem to want since they are but young girls is the most potent symbol representing belonging to ones husband.

I find it especially funny when I find women going on how "free" they are when they so willingly wear their chains and love to show them off.

[s]

On feminism, rings, and taking a husband's name, etc...:

I never changed my name and it is often a royal pain in the ass, especially once children are in the picture. Regardless of whether or not I took my husband's name, my "freedom" is independent of this decision. Something as superficial as a name, does not make me who I am. My mother took my father's surname, but she was hardly "owned" by him, as she asked for his hand in marriage, was the bread winner, and his equal partner. Her maiden name was her father's surname and her mother's maiden name was her grandfather's surname, so whatever she kept, it was sure to be patrilineal. Inventing a name is fine, unless you care about geneolgy and family history (and my family does).

Wedding rings are symbolic and let others know you are in a contractually bound relationship. I wear my grandmother's diamond and my mother's band on my left hand and it alerts to others (whomever actually happens to notice) that I am a married woman, but to me it reminds me of the romantic love that my foremothers enjoyed, not the oppressive shackles of servitude.

To many women, a ring is simply an expensive accessory and does not symbolize anything. With the divorce rate in the US, I hardly think these "shackles" are keeping anyone from free will. If you don't like marriage, changing your name, or wedding rings, then that is fine, but to believe that any of this has any real bearing on a woman's freedom is silly, naive, and overly dramatic.

Freedom is a relative term:


Noun 1. freedom - the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints
2. freedom - immunity from an obligation or duty

For example, I would not trade a reality in which I did not have the "obligation" to rear my child properly for one where I was completely "free" to live the life of hedonism. Parenting is wonderfully difficult and rewarding, and so is a strong relationship that thrives on compromise.

The western world has made incredible advances in the area of women's rights and we should consider ourselves grateful to those who ensured these freedoms for our generation. The feminist movement was hardly perfect and today it seems more of a buzz word than anything of true substance. Many women, hardly more than girls, speak of being feminists, believing that anything "feminine" is inferior. My Dad raised two women who fight, can wield a rifle, fly a plane, play rough, demand respect, but can also whip up dinner and wipe babies' asses (and my husband's mother raised him in the same manner). I have never once in my life felt unequal to men. If there is a glass ceiling or inequitites, I have ignored it, instead charging forward in bold challenge.

Since this is a thread about the US, I will end with: I am glad I born an American and allowed the luxury of thinking of frivolous things, such as "will I take my husband's name," because had I been born in the third world, my cantankerous ass would have been worth a couple cows and a mule.

[MacGuffin]

Since this is a thread about the US, I will end with: I am glad I born an American and allowed the luxury of thinking of frivolous things, such as "will I take my husband's name," because had I been born in the third world, my cantankerous ass would have been worth a couple cows and a mule.

Actually, if you lived in a 3rd world country, given your independent "Wonder Woman" free-thinking persona, your father would have to pay a whole lot more than some livestock to get rid of you! ;)

[s]

Since this is a thread about the US, I will end with: I am glad I born an American and allowed the luxury of thinking of frivolous things, such as "will I take my husband's name," because had I been born in the third world, my cantankerous ass would have been worth a couple cows and a mule.

Actually, if you lived in a 3rd world country, given your independent "Wonder Woman" free-thinking persona, your father would have to pay a whole lot more than some livestock to get rid of you! ;)

True... very true. :D

[Arioch]

On feminism, rings, and taking a husband's name, etc...:

I never changed my name and it is often a royal pain in the ass, especially once children are in the picture. Regardless of whether or not I took my husband's name, my "freedom" is independent of this decision. Something as superficial as a name, does not make me who I am. My mother took my father's surname, but she was hardly "owned" by him, as she asked for his hand in marriage, was the bread winner, and his equal partner. Her maiden name was her father's surname and her mother's maiden name was her grandfather's surname, so whatever she kept, it was sure to be patrilineal. Inventing a name is fine, unless you care about geneolgy and family history (and my family does).

Wedding rings are symbolic and let others know you are in a contractually bound relationship. I wear my grandmother's diamond and my mother's band on my left hand and it alerts to others (whomever actually happens to notice) that I am a married woman, but to me it reminds me of the romantic love that my foremothers enjoyed, not the oppressive shackles of servitude.

To many women, a ring is simply an expensive accessory and does not symbolize anything. With the divorce rate in the US, I hardly think these "shackles" are keeping anyone from free will. If you don't like marriage, changing your name, or wedding rings, then that is fine, but to believe that any of this has any real bearing on a woman's freedom is silly, naive, and overly dramatic.

Freedom is a relative term:


Noun 1. freedom - the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints
2. freedom - immunity from an obligation or duty

For example, I would not trade a reality in which I did not have the "obligation" to rear my child properly for one where I was completely "free" to live the life of hedonism. Parenting is wonderfully difficult and rewarding, and so is a strong relationship that thrives on compromise.

The western world has made incredible advances in the area of women's rights and we should consider ourselves grateful to those who ensured these freedoms for our generation. The feminist movement was hardly perfect and today it seems more of a buzz word than anything of true substance. Many women, hardly more than girls, speak of being feminists, believing that anything "feminine" is inferior. My Dad raised two women who fight, can wield a rifle, fly a plane, play rough, demand respect, but can also whip up dinner and wipe babies' asses (and my husband's mother raised him in the same manner). I have never once in my life felt unequal to men. If there is a glass ceiling or inequitites, I have ignored it, instead charging forward in bold challenge.

Since this is a thread about the US, I will end with: I am glad I born an American and allowed the luxury of thinking of frivolous things, such as "will I take my husband's name," because had I been born in the third world, my cantankerous ass would have been worth a couple cows and a mule.

Personally I just find the irony of it amusing. The world doesn't care much about symbols these days. Except in science.

Hmm.. you know in some places I think the man has to give stuff to the woman.

[Claverhouse]

While my search was spurred by the foreknowledge of a website that lists products that come from the most exploitive of conditions, I came up with at least this interesting read to replace the failed search (maybe someone else knows about the site?):

http://crimethinc.com/library/english/veganism.html

It comes from a different direction but arrives at the same issue as worker/foreign worker exploitation.

I worked at a quite descent restaraunt, but it is just another expoitation no matter how nice the conditions, or how wide the cage so to speak. I smirk when the owner goads waiters into working extra hours by telling them how many hours she puts in, which is irrelevant given her position. I can work non stop if it is at my own volition, as can anybody in truth.

As a distinguished vegan I thank you.

An' I believe in a socialist dynamic without believing in a socialist politic.
Victory to the oppressed ! Arise ye starvelings !


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[drop_motif]

On feminism, rings, and taking a husband's name, etc...:

I've never felt the need to do this here until now, but: :)

[drop_motif]

We often speak of the third-worlders, but rarely ask what they think. Would they even have the freedom to answer? I came across the writings of one of these third-worlders today:


Thus Spake Myrmica

Lo and behold -- the ants! Those wee thin red creatures are the ants, called Formica in Latin. I am a Myrmica, descendent of the great family of Myrmicinae; I feel much amused to watch those ants.

Look at them -- ha ha ha, just watch their gait: they crawl as though they are one with the dust. My head, on the other hand, scrapes the sky when I stand up. If the sun were a piece of candy, I suppose I could pinch off its pieces with my claws and store them in my nest. Gosh, what a large piece of straw I have dragged such a long way, and look at those ants -- three of them pulling and pushing on a single dead grasshopper. We're so different! Sincerely speaking, I am much amused.

Look at my leg, and theirs! My legs are so enormously lengthy that I cannot really fathom the end of them! What higher stead could one expect than on these legs? But those ants are so blissfully content with their own tiny legs. Amazing! Ants they are, after all!

They are so tiny, and moreover, I watch them from a considerable height -- so I cannot fully comprehend their ways. However, a glance upon them from the corner of my eye, standing on my enormous legs, and only a little guesswork sufficed me to have understood everything about them. For the ants are too small to require any prolonged observation. I will write a treatise on them in Myrmicine language, and will give seminars, too.

I have much experience indeed, derived from assumptions, about the ant society. For instance, we the Myrmica have the faculty of filial affection, and therefore, ants cannot have the same faculty, for they are ants, nothing but ants. They say ants can build their nests underground. Clearly, they must have learnt the construction engineering from Myrmica -- because they are ants, creatures named Formica in Latin.

I feel great pity for the ants though, when I see them. And I do feel a great urge to do them some good. I even would if I could, for some time abandon the civilized Myrmicine society and live, along with flocks of Myrmica brethren, among the ants in their colony, and bring about some reformation in their society -- heck, to that extent am I prepared to sacrifice! We intend to thrive on their bits of sugar, and to live somehow in their mud holes, spreading our appendages -- merely for the sake of their development.

But they don't want development -- they only want to eat their own humble sugar and live in their own mud holes -- ants, mere ants as they are. But Myrmica as we are, we shall most certainly give them development , and shall eat their sugar and shall live in their mud holes -- we, and our nephews and nieces and all in-laws!

To the question as to why we should eat their sugar and occupy their mud holes, we may give the principal reason that they are ants, and we are Myrmica. Secondly, we have a selfless interest in bringing about development for the ants, and therefore, we shall eat their sugar and occupy their mud holes. Thirdly, we'll have to leave our homeland. Hence, to make good for this loss, it is imperative that we consume a bit more sugar. Fourth, we'll have to live among alien creatures in an alien land, and we may contract diseases, -- so we may not live long -- oh poor us, dear us! Hence we must eat sugar; and whatever space is there to occupy in the ants' holes must be shared amongst us, our kins and affines!

If the ants are disgruntled, we shall flatly call them ungrateful. If they want to eat sugar and to demand accommodation in the mud holes, we shall tell them in their face, in Mymicine language, "You are ants, small creatures, you are Formica!" That'll be sufficiently forceful logic, won't it?

But then what will the ants eat? We don't know. They may suffer from scarcity of food and lodging, but they ought to be patient and consider the possibility that contact with our long legs will eventually lengthen their legs to stand them in a better stead. There will be no dearth of discipline, and peace. They develop more and more, we eat more and more sugar -- only such an arrangement can maintain peace, law and order. Or else, there are chances of hell breaking loose. We are so careful, because we bear an immense onus of responsibility, you see.

What if the whole race of ants become extinct due to want of sugar and an excess of law and order? Then of course we shall have to go elsewhere to spread development. For we, Myrmicines, are highly developed, by virtue of our elongated legs.

[Melody]

*clutches brain* Speaking with sarcasm, I have been convinced!

[file cabinet]

I started this thread.. but did I ever reply?

[Johnny]

I believe in a socialist dynamic without believing in a socialist politic.

How are you proposing that the dynamic can exist without our meddling?

[Claverhouse]

I believe in a socialist dynamic without believing in a socialist politic.

How are you proposing that the dynamic can exist without our meddling?

In the good old Germanic manner ( as distinguished from other Germanic theories such as communism or you-know-what ) of applying extended social reform and benevolent control, with a modified command economy, without the other darker side of socialism which states that sovereignty resides in the 'People', and also sometimes that they should have a voice in exercising that sovereignty. Neither of which beliefs in an imaginary body make the faintest sense. But that's fascism for you.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Claverhouse]

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS

[sasapurdue]

i know this is old but yes I am embarrassed

[Nighthawk]

Somewhat. I am more embarassed by the actions of the US government and its reflection on me as a citizen. I don't like being hated by most of the rest of the world. I won't travel outside the US anymore just for that reason.

[Helios]

Not me! I am embarassed to be human, this question is like asking the other inmates if they are embarassed to be in cell block C, rather than asking them if they are embarassed to be part of a group of murders,rapists,and thieves!

[garak]

Not at all. I do think that my personality isn't really suited to being an American, or living in the midwest for that matter. That's why I'm moving out of the midwest soon. But I refuse to be ashamed of who I am and where I came from. That seems weak to me.

[Star Cannon]

No. There is something seriously wrong with our country and that dumbass in the Oval Office isn't even trying to make the world a better place.

[Claverhouse]

I can't imagine hating or disparaging any member of a social or racial group based on their involuntary membership of that group. There are various such groups I personally don't particularly admire, such as those of Papua New Guinea or the Czech/Bohemians for historical reasons: but even for any current stuff people are not responsible for nor to be individually disliked for the actions of other's of their group. Even the people who hate americanism rarely attack individual Americans.

You are not blamable: anyone who hates you has psychological problems. ( Or at least I assume that about people who hate me. )



Claverhouse :ph34r:


[ More than the Americans who say 'My Country, Right or Wrong' are the Americans who say 'My Country is Always Right' who are a problem; but most countries have these sort of people: it's the fact that in this epoch the US has a monopoly of powers that makes them combine stupidity with arrogance. ]

[kuranes]

Not me! I am embarassed to be human, this question is like asking the other inmates if they are embarassed to be in cell block C, rather than asking them if they are embarassed to be part of a group of murders,rapists,and thieves!
Cool answer.

[david2341.]

seems america was originally founded to be a great country ... degeneration has set in ... eventually there will no longer be an "america". and believe/perceive the present way of life to come to an end ... come as an astonishing surprise

job outsourcing, immigration problem, oil issue, so called "terrorism", ridiculouslylow $12.99 dsl, cell phones which dull peoples mental ability ... the quality of things are low and at this point in time it is already visible/evident that everyone is trying to make it by but things cant possibly last much longer the way it is

[Nemesis]

I'm embarassed about some of the things my country has done. Am I ashamed to be an American? No way in hell.

[david2341.]

would agree with helios's answer of being embarassed to be a human. don't identify with america much or at all. the problem is with thyself.

[screamingflies]

Yes, I am embarassed
But less so by the naive points you made
and more so by american culture.

[Dr. Haight]

I am embarrassed by the actions and history of my government; which I am forced to be associated with, since I was born here and lack the means to leave.

[Nemesis]

I am embarrassed about certain people who call themselves American and don't act it. I myself am not embarrassed to be American.

[Lurker]

No, why would I be embarrased because of where I was born? I didn't choose to live here. America is a "friendly" fascist country where stupidity and immorality run rampant, but I don't have anything to do with it. I'm not in the media all that much, you know.

[Lurker]

I'm embarrassed to be an American because it has such a massive welfare state, forcibly funded and our civil liberties are being eroded due to irrational fears about terror.

Yet, America is far more pleasant (in places) than the vast majority of the world, which tells you how sorry the state of the world is. I heard Luxembourg is nice.

Massive welfare state? What the hell are you talking about? I'm beginning to suspect the entire United States is nothing but a big corporation with the president as CEO.

[euterpenc]

Currently yes, Historically no.

[meshou]

I really don't buy into the concept that I'm well off at the expense of others. Who would I be living off of (excuding my parents)? Please elaborate on your perspective.Nearly all of America shops at a store that uses what is basically slave labor to produce its goods.

A company, like Wal Mart, does not make its own goods, but subcontracts out to the company who can make those good the cheapest. They claim no responsibility for how it's made. Those companies turn around and use sweat shops in international duty-free zones. The workers are not paid a living wage, and so MUST burrow from the company at a high interest rate regularly in order not to starve. If you attempt to leave the company, they'll collect you'll be thrown in prision. If I understand correctly, their children are liable for the debt, even if they're young.

Wal-Mart does this, Nike does this, most Us companies who want to be competitive must do this. The US public doesn't care why it's cheap, just that it is.

[TelecomClone]

are you embarassed to be American?No. While I am obviously a product of my environment, like anyone else would be, I have no real sense of 'cultural continuity' amongst most of my fellow Amerikaner. Similar to a few other users here, I find myself more embarrassed to be alive in the present age amongst contemporary tribalists - that primitivism being a global phenomena. Too many of us, a majority of us, still behave today exactly as we did thousands of years ago; too many of us rabidly cling to what appears to be outmoded and increasingly dysfunctional sociology. The whole situation is very discouraging.

[Claverhouse]

Nearly all of America shops at a store that uses what is basically slave labor to produce its goods.

Yup. A few weeks ago I read of a Chinese woman who died after doing two 12-hour shifts back to back.

Although... dispassionately: things were even worse in the old days for both European and American workers

1/ I was pretty horrified to find out the work-hours in nazi slave-camps were 11 hours a day --- then I found out that was standard for European workers in the thirties.

2/ And over in America in the same 1930s I read an account of the steelmills, mainly staffed by Polacks and Irish etc. at that time. They had 16 hour days... but if people were off sick or they were otherwise short-handed then workers had to do the next 16 hour shift as well.

I've done 16 hour days... but with proper breaks and not in a fricking steelmill. Sometimes you just wish Alexander Berkmann had been a better shot.

Unrestrained capitalism is morally worse than communism and nazism combined. Both of those may have been horribly idealistic; and both had corpses built into the system --- but they didn't imply their slaves had choices when they didn't, nor that those slaves should be grateful, as capital does.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Nemesis]

but if people were off sick or they were otherwise short-handed then workers had to do the next 16 hour shift as well.
I reccomend "The Jungle." It's pretty gross, but the point of mentioning it was to point out that you were lucky if they just made other workers do your shift; most of the time they would just replace you on the spot with one of the huddled masses who stood for hours on end in bitterly cold Chicago winters for a chance at a job.

[Claverhouse]

Hm, I did read it as a kid: I was already vegetarian, so it didn't affect me that way; but two extra conclusions are that Sinclair was a great and truthful polemicist, but a really lousy writer, and that it would have been fun if he'd become Governor of California.

You may have missed the point: these iron-workers had to work 32 hours, go home and sleep then start again on the regular 16 hours. Personally I would have preferred to die young.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[tinribz]

No. While I am obviously a product of my environment, like anyone else would be, I have no real sense of 'cultural continuity' amongst most of my fellow Amerikaner. Similar to a few other users here, I find myself more embarrassed to be alive in the present age amongst contemporary tribalists - that primitivism being a global phenomena. Too many of us, a majority of us, still behave today exactly as we did thousands of years ago; too many of us rabidly cling to what appears to be outmoded and increasingly dysfunctional sociology. The whole situation is very discouraging.The more I read your posts the more I like u, it's like a br3ath of fresh air.

Ends suck-up.

Maybe it is because I'm English which is very similar (the father ;) ) of American and Canadian culture, but I really can't see the difference between the nationalities on this board.

When I read ur posts they have an English accent, I recognise the same sorts of personalities I have met before. It could be different if I met u in person with this being my first experience of prolonged international interaction, but it makes me think that maybe nationality is just superficial.

So there is nothing really to be ashamed of other than your accents and dress sense?:devil:

[coffeezombie]

So there is nothing really to be ashamed of other than your accents and dress sense?:devil:
This from a British person? Have you seen how people in your country dress? I don't think they're going to be walking down the catwalks of Paris or Milan anytime soon.

[Lurker]

Why do the political leaders of the U.S. act as though it is the only true democratic nation in the world? What about England, France, Germany, Canada, The Netherlands, Australia, Japan, and many others? Personally, I believe a social democracy is best. I am willing to pay higher taxes to support a better social system. The U.S. is riddled with crime and inequality. Poverty breeds crime, and let's face it, not everyone is able to support his or her self. What should these people do? Die in the gutter? Turn to crime? That just hurts society more in the long run. Many U.S. citizens are ridiculously rich - the reality is, NO ONE needs to be a millionaire. It's more than a person can even enjoy. I say take some of the millionaire's income and redistribute it to people who are starving and homeless. Sure, it's nice to "bathe in money," but it's also obscene and unnecessary. If people weren't always fighting to get ahead in the rat race, they could devote their time to becoming cultured, centered human beings. Art and literature could flourish. Maybe a liberal education would be actually be more desirable than some practical degree in accounting, for instance. An accounting education is not a REAL education; that college degree doesn't mean much. What is an accountant but a human machine that crunches numbers? And what is with this trend in developing mechanized humans, anyway? Personally, I don't want to be a cog in the machine, or The Machine itself, for that matter.

[Lurker]

Unrestrained capitalism is morally worse than communism and nazism combined. Both of those may have been horribly idealistic; and both had corpses built into the system --- but they didn't imply their slaves had choices when they didn't, nor that those slaves should be grateful, as capital does.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

We see eye to eye, I think. Capitalism infuses its victims with delusional thinking - you aren't allowed to complain, after all, the world is yours for the taking! Problem is, everyone can't be a winner. Admit it or not, a capitalist society needs someone to assemble those high-definition televisions...

[Superstring]

Unrestrained capitalism is morally worse than communism and nazism combined. Both of those may have been horribly idealistic; and both had corpses built into the system --- but they didn't imply their slaves had choices when they didn't, nor that those slaves should be grateful, as capital does.

Claverhouse :ph34r:

They do have a choice, that's the difference. No one holds a gun to anyone's head to work a shitty job, everyone is perfectly free to choose otherwise (tonnes of people here are an example of that!) And no one expects militaristic gratefulness from minimum wage shit-job workers, except maybe the rudest and most narrowheaded bosses on earth. The fact that nothing is centralised in capatlism is brilliant, no person could design and uphold a better system- save for a time when replicators and teleportation exists....that's when communism will have its chance to shine.

[Superstring]

Why do the political leaders of the U.S. act as though it is the only true democratic nation in the world? What about England, France, Germany, Canada, The Netherlands, Australia, Japan, and many others?

They are a special kind; they pioneered the two-house congress & senate system that I feel every democracy should rip off (which France did mid-20th century, of course), and they function on a level of conservatism unparalleled by any other democracy. They're pioneers of democracy-on-crack.

[Lurker]

They do have a choice, that's the difference. No one holds a gun to anyone's head to work a shitty job, everyone is perfectly free to choose otherwise (tonnes of people here are an example of that!) And no one expects militaristic gratefulness from minimum wage shit-job workers, except maybe the rudest and most narrowheaded bosses on earth. The fact that nothing is centralised in capatlism is brilliant, no person could design and uphold a better system- save for a time when replicators and teleportation exists....that's when communism will have its chance to shine.

That "choice" is an illusion. If everyone chose otherwise, there would be no one to work those shitty jobs and the economy would grind to a halt.

No one needs to expect "militaristic gratefulness" from shit-job workers, because they are content with their lot in life. After all, they get perks like 50 percent off on a combo meal, or a 20 percent discount on irregular Levis from the factory. Really, who could ask for more? Point is, they are caught up in day-to-day survival and exhausted. They worry more about survival than the wonderful opportunities that capitalism offers them.

[Lurker]

They are a special kind; they pioneered the two-house congress & senate system that I feel every democracy should rip off (which France did mid-20th century, of course), and they function on a level of conservatism unparalleled by any other democracy.

But is this the best kind of democracy? I wonder.

Why do people say to low wage workers, "At least it's honest work?" Doesn't this really mean, "Eat your shit and feel proud of it?"

Edit: clarity

[bergenski]

I am not embarrassed to be an American, but I am not particularly proud either. I don't like many aspects of this society. I am much more attuned to the European way of life...being in an airport there is like night and day compared to a US airport in the amount of noise and activity.

[last_caress]

I like the metric system better.

[Superstring]

That "choice" is an illusion. If everyone chose otherwise, there would be no one to work those shitty jobs and the economy would grind to a halt.

Nope, it's not an illusion. That choice is completely real, you're just describing mankind's servitude to money in a poetic and melancholic fashion. Most people work because they really want to work, and truly feel their happiest when they're working hard at a job that rewards them by sustaining their lifestyle. The economy would probalby not grind to a halt if someone who feels otherwise about work chose not to do so; millions of people are doing it right now. It's always been that way.


No one needs to expect "militaristic gratefulness" from shit-job workers, because they are content with their lot in life. After all, they get perks like 50 percent off on a combo meal, or a 20 percent discount on irregular Levis from the factory. Really, who could ask for more? Point is, they are caught up in day-to-day survival and exhausted. They worry more about survival than the wonderful opportunities that capitalism offers them.

When the worry leads to hard work and groundbreaking accomplishments it's a good thing. When it leads to a lifetime of suffering, however, that's really unfortunate.

[Lurker]

Nope, it's not an illusion. That choice is completely real, you're just describing mankind's servitude to money in a poetic and melancholic fashion. Most people work because they really want to work, and truly feel their happiest when they're working hard at a job that rewards them by sustaining their lifestyle. The economy would probalby not grind to a halt if someone who feels otherwise about work chose not to do so; millions of people are doing it right now. It's always been that way.

I agree that the choice is real in a literal sense; yes, most people do have the option of leaving a low wage job. However, what would happen if everyone left their low wage jobs? These people would yank the rug out from under the capitalist system. Not everyone can be a CEO or top ranking member in a corporation, this is a fact. The grunts carry out the day-to-day labor and are given ridiculously low wages for doing so. The income discrepancy between the higher-ups and hourly wage slaves is astonishing. The key to the illusion is found in societal pressure, tradition, and nationalism. Low wage workers are tricked into feeling important through societal expectations and norms.

Just think of a pyramid -- it gets narrower as you go to the top. An upside down pyramid would topple over. Capitalism is that pyramid. Without the broad base of low wage workers, the system would topple over. There simply isn't enough room at the top, which means the system needs to devise ways to keep people at the bottom in order to stay functional. Think of macroecomics. People need hope? Give them hope then. Let them think they can do better easily; let them think they have that option. After all, people enjoy feeling like they are in control of their lives. But, at the same time, keep them content. Give them silly perks, compliment them on a job well done, give them a gold star, make them "employee of the week." Create camaradarie between coworkers. Above all, create the illusion that they are doing something worthwhile AND that they always have the option of bettering themselves. If you give them enough candy, they won't leave. Good - we need them.


[/QUOTE]When the worry leads to hard work and groundbreaking accomplishments it's a good thing. When it leads to a lifetime of suffering, however, that's really unfortunate.[/QUOTE]

I agree.

[Superstring]

I agree that the choice is real in a literal sense; yes, most people do have the option of leaving a low wage job. However, what would happen if everyone left their low wage jobs? These people would yank the rug out from under the capitalist system.

Moot point. You're using an out-of-place "what if everybody jumped off a bridge" analogy, as far as I'm concerned. People do not work so that the economy does not collapse, they primarily work so they can have money. You could argue that a percentage of people's minds are preoccupied with working to "save" the economy, but not entirely. "Saving" the economy is not a logical main reason for any low-income person to work their job, as there are tonnes of people with immigration papers whose wishes come true whenever someone works their way up from a low-end job.


Low wage workers are tricked into feeling important through societal expectations and norms.

I think that's an old standard that all bosses learn to follow, so that their workers don't come to them asking for a justly deserved raise every time they increase their productivity for the company...



Just think of a pyramid -- it gets narrower as you go to the top. An upside down pyramid would topple over. Capitalism is that pyramid. Without the broad base of low wage workers, the system would topple over.

...wouldn't it be more like...there's tonnes of room at the top? And all it takes is knowing how to step carefully enough that you don't tip it over while you're doing so?

[Claverhouse]

Ignoring the plight of western workers --- in the real sense of 'workers' --- and the fact that those in the factories and steelmills and mines in the past did not have the chance to tell their employers to shove it: those slaves to whom we have transferred the jobs that western workers used to do, all around the world, but particularly in China ( or even say equally traditional slave-societies such as Pakistan ) do not have the 'choice' anymore than their peasant ancestors had a 'choice'. If they completely refuse to work, or form trade unions so they can refuse to work for little pay and long hours, very bad things happen to them.

This in China's case is partly due to their communist legacy --- exalting the collective of 'The People' over the rights of the individual, so if,

save for a time when replicators and teleportation exists....that's when communism will have its chance to shine.
let's hope communism doesn't shine. It's just another failed religion anyway.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Superstring]

If they completely refuse to work, or form trade unions so they can refuse to work for little pay and long hours, very bad things happen to them.

This in China's case is partly due to their communist legacy ---

It would be nice if the corporations cared.

Hopefully they will one day.

[In...TP]

I'm embarrassed to be an American because it has such a massive welfare state, forcibly funded and our civil liberties are being eroded due to irrational fears about terror.

Yet, America is far more pleasant (in places) than the vast majority of the world, which tells you how sorry the state of the world is. I heard Luxembourg is nice.
hypnos is the man

[Lurker]

Superstring:

I understand what you're saying, but I still say to look at the big picture. What is the driving mechanism behind our system? A shiny, happy employee who itches to work for small change because s/he knows that it's just temporary, after all? No. It's so unrealistic to think there is enough room at the top for everyone. If everyone in the U.S. was on top, then someone somewhere would get the boot. Besides, unless we had a race of uniformly intelligent and ambitious people here - eugenics anyone? - everyone couldn't be a winner in the U.S because of their own natural limitations anyway.

I'm not talking about the individual so much as the large-scale structure of capitalism. Yeah, people in developing countries are exploited for cheap labor now, often saving our butts from working in assembly factories. But doesn't this move our unique brand of capitalism to another realm? What would this be called? Modern day imperialism? Are we moving into a semi-fascist state? The new "factory" in America contains service-oriented shit jobs such as customer service reps, and the ubiquitous food service employee, of course.

You have an idealistic view. I really think that it's beating a dead horse to explain anymore about how it is necessary to have people at all levels of the feeding chain for capitalism to work. The pyramid structure is a useful analogy. There will always be more people at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder in a capitalist society. There MUST be in order for it to function.

[Architectonic]

They are a special kind; they pioneered the two-house congress & senate system that I feel every democracy should rip off (which France did mid-20th century, of course)

America should probably steal another countries preferential voting system then....

[Architectonic]

I understand what you're saying, but I still say to look at the big picture. What is the driving mechanism behind our system?

The driving mechanism behind liberalism is choice and competition. If there is no choice, then it isn't much of a liberal (libertarian) system, more of a corporate dictatorship.

Which would make you happier:
(a) Being free to make your own decisions. (but knowing that you will never be one of the richest or most successful people)
(b) Having all of your decisions made for you by the government. (and those decisons will generally be poor-average compromises at best)

[Superstring]

You have an idealistic view.

:rant:

Fuck you, I have a realistic and sane view; don't tell me otherwise

[INThoughtPolice]

The idea of freedom of speech is all well and good except for the censorship in the media... in the government.. and so on..
This censorship happens because the majority of us do not want to hear the vulgarities that people would say otherwise. Sounds pretty democratic to me.

[Architectonic]

This censorship happens because the majority of us do not want to hear the vulgarities that people would say otherwise. Sounds pretty democratic to me.

Yes, democratic, as opposed to free. They should rename it 'democratic speech.' :ph34r:

[INThoughtPolice]

Yes, democratic, as opposed to free. They should rename it 'democratic speech.' :ph34r:
Nah, too many syllables, it doesn't roll off the tongue like "free" does. Very few things are truly free in our lives.

[candy]

fuck, I know I am.
Russia had the fall of the Berlin wall..
Germany had the fall of Hitler..
Italy had the fall of Mussolini..
what will the US have?
The fall of democracy can't happen because we do not live in a democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism).

The US is not a democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy) nation..

The idea of freedom of speech is all well and good except for the censorship in the media... in the government.. and so on..


You know what? Berlin is in Germany!

[INThoughtPolice]

You know what? Berlin is in Germany!
and Russia did not exist, or did it? (Soviet Union, right?)

[Lurker]

The driving mechanism behind liberalism is choice and competition. If there is no choice, then it isn't much of a liberal (libertarian) system, more of a corporate dictatorship.

Which would make you happier:
(a) Being free to make your own decisions. (but knowing that you will never be one of the richest or most successful people)
(b) Having all of your decisions made for you by the government. (and those decisons will generally be poor-average compromises at best)

I choose a. But I do think the U.S. should up taxes to level out wealth. I think the government should ubertax celebrities (and other variations thereof) in particular. :)

[Lurker]

:rant:

Fuck you, I have a realistic and sane view; don't tell me otherwise

*Gasp*....Well!....That's the last time I try to pay YOU a compliment! :thelook:

[Superstring]

It's so unrealistic to think there is enough room at the top for everyone. If everyone in the U.S. was on top, then someone somewhere would get the boot.

I hate to say it, but you have a misguided view on 'the room at the top'. There's always room for more, more people at the top only means more competition, which is good as this causes lower prices and higher quality products and service. Especially with doctors, for example, the world can't get enough of them; there's a constant shortage. And just like population sizes: the 'top' is continually expanding, and open for anyone willing and able to get there.

[Lurker]

I hate to say it, but you have a misguided view on 'the room at the top'. There's always room for more, more people at the top only means more competition, which is good as this causes lower prices and higher quality products and service. Especially with doctors, for example, the world can't get enough of them; there's a constant shortage. And just like population sizes: the 'top' is continually expanding, and open for anyone willing and able to get there.

Ok, but don't doctors need CNAs, nurses, janitors, "dietary staff," and other low wage workers to help them out a little? They can't do it all, you know.

[Superstring]

Superstring:

I understand what you're saying, but I still say to look at the big picture. What is the driving mechanism behind our system? A shiny, happy employee who itches to work for small change because s/he knows that it's just temporary, after all? No. It's so unrealistic to think there is enough room at the top for everyone. If everyone in the U.S. was on top, then someone somewhere would get the boot. Besides, unless we had a race of uniformly intelligent and ambitious people here - eugenics anyone? - everyone couldn't be a winner in the U.S because of their own natural limitations anyway.

I'm not talking about the individual so much as the large-scale structure of capitalism. Yeah, people in developing countries are exploited for cheap labor now, often saving our butts from working in assembly factories. But doesn't this move our unique brand of capitalism to another realm? What would this be called? Modern day imperialism? Are we moving into a semi-fascist state? The new "factory" in America contains service-oriented shit jobs such as customer service reps, and the ubiquitous food service employee, of course.

You have an idealistic view. I really think that it's beating a dead horse to explain anymore about how it is necessary to have people at all levels of the feeding chain for capitalism to work. The pyramid structure is a useful analogy. There will always be more people at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder in a capitalist society. There MUST be in order for it to function.


*Gasp*....Well!....That's the last time I try to pay YOU a compliment!

I don't quite get what part of that post was an effort to pay me a compliment, but um..... the effort is neither necessary nor appreciated. I assure you.

[Lurker]

Superstring:

This isn't personal. I was just kidding with you.

[Superstring]

Ok, but don't doctors need CNAs, nurses, janitors, "dietary staff," and other low wage workers to help them out a little? They can't do it all, you know.

They suuuure do.

[Lurker]

They suuuure do.

That's right. If a hospital consisted of nothing but doctors, who would do the dirty work? Which just leads me back to my original point.

Go look at the employee structure of any large organization. They inevitably fall into the structure of a pyramid: lots of low paid workers, fewer low to middle level managers, and then, at the top there is only one (or two?) CEO/s. The modern capitalist system is built on this structure.

Mom and Pop's stores are rare, now. The days of owning a corner grocery store and doing all/most of the work in it are almost gone. Why? Because conglomerate corporations can afford to buy in bulk, so they can offer their goods at very low prices, which attracts the consumer. Mom and Pop are forced to charge a lot for their goods, so the consumer abandons their store and goes to WalMart instead.

[Superstring]

That's right. If a hospital consisted of nothing but doctors, who would do the

Alright alright already, we were talking about something other than this....like, low-wage manufacturing jobs in Asia. Not, as Claverhouse put it, the plight of the western worker.

[Superstring]

Mom and Pop's stores are rare, now. The days of owning a corner grocery store and doing all/most of the work in it are almost gone. Why? Because conglomerate corporations can afford to buy in bulk,

:sobs:


so they can offer their goods at very low prices, which attracts the consumer. Mom and Pop are forced

:sobs:


to charge a lot for their goods, so the consumer abandons their store and goes to WalMart instead.


:sobs:

:laser:

Whatever dickface, I'll just go buy another one at Walmart! It was only 5 bucks! :2up:

[Lurker]

Ahh, sarcasm. A wonderful defense when the going gets tough.

Bottom line: There isn't enough room at the top. Period. Like I said, instead of arguing for argument's sake, really think about it and do a little research on economic theory while you're at it.

[Lurker]

Alright alright already, we were talking about something other than this....like, low-wage manufacturing jobs in Asia. Not, as Claverhouse put it, the plight of the western worker.

Actually, I started out talking about the plight of the western worker, but then I did note that most factory jobs are going elsewhere (after Claverhouse's post), and that the new "factory worker" is a customer service rep or someone like that. Same bottom line: poor wages and repetitive, mundane work.

I understand that you might be concerned you won't get a good job after graduation, so you want to hope for the best and keep your spirits up, that kind of thing. :rolleyes:

Oh, how can I be a dickhead? :huh: I'm female. I deserve a different kind of name.

[Superstring]

That whole thing was a South Park quote, the emoticons and everything. Cartman pulls out a violin and starts playing it because someone goes off giving the exact same speech about mom & pop stores being threatened by big retail outlets like Walmart.


Ahh, sarcasm. A wonderful defense when the going gets tough.

:rofl: There was no 'going' to begin with, but if you enjoy spending time in the trenches I guess you can keep writing random shit on this thread.


Bottom line: There isn't enough room at the top. Period. Like I said, instead of arguing for argument's sake, really think about it and do a little research on economic theory while you're at it.

Well, I socialize with the top on occasion, and hearing them talk about such and such needing someone who can do this or that, it seems to me like the top is a loosely knit web of sane and competant people (unlike you?) who often need a helping hand and can't find one. My friend is a Business School graduate and has computer programming skills. Because of these two simple skill sets he gets job offers left right and center, especially when he's got one and isn't looking....he turned down a job paying USD$400,000 just one week ago. So for someone who needs to have a high-paying job filled needing to aggressively hunt down an employee implies to me that there is a high demand for people to work at the top, rather than there being a bunch of two-cent geniuses crammed in and tripping over one another to get the same job like you suggest (and if that were the case: why the hell would the job be high-paying?) Here's a simple economics lesson for you: if a job is high-paying, it's because the demand for people to fill the position is high. That's why you don't take home million dollar paycheques from whatever shit fast food job you have, any asshole can do it.

[Lurker]

Wow, you take things personally. I don't work a shit job -- I'm looking for one as an editor because I just graduated.

This all started out as an impersonal debate about capitalism. I simply wrote down my views on it and you are welcome to a different opinion. I just wish you would hear other points of view without a knee jerk reaction against them.

Edit: It's no crime to find common ground. <sigh>

[Dr. Haight]

This all started out as an impersonal debate about capitalism. I simply wrote down my views on it and you are welcome to a different opinion. I just wish you would hear other points of view without a knee jerk reaction against them.


He's Canadian...he doesn't know anything about Capitalism; to him, this is just a theoretical debate.

[Superstring]

I understand that you might be concerned you won't get a good job after graduation, so you want to hope for the best and keep your spirits up, that kind of thing. :rolleyes:

Yeah, no, I definetly need to worry about employment. Definetly.


Oh, how can I be a dickhead? :huh: I'm female. I deserve a different kind of name.

Will you go to the prom with me? :wub:

[coffeezombie]

Will you go to the prom with me? :wub:
I misread INTPorn on another thread as INTProm after reading this last post of yours. INTProm is an even more amusing idea than INTPorn, if you ask me.

[zhang_bob]

I misread INTPorn on another thread as INTProm after reading this last post of yours. INTProm is an even more amusing idea than INTPorn, if you ask me.
:crazy:

[Lurker]

He's Canadian...he doesn't know anything about Capitalism; to him, this is just a theoretical debate.

OMG, you're right! I didn't notice. No wonder he thinks everything is great!

:: Packing up to move to Canada ::

[Lurker]

Will you go to the prom with me? :wub:

Aww...shucks...well, gosh....ok. :blush:

Wait...

Maybe you just want to set me up to get me arrested for statuatory rape or contributing to the delinquency of a minor. I'm on to you! :mad:

[Superstring]

OMG, you're right! I didn't notice. No wonder he thinks everything is great!

:: Packing up to move to Canada ::

I live in Canada, but the other half of my family are settled on the American side. I never described anything as 'great', I was merely debating the finer points of what you said. And I don't see how doing so makes anything 'personal', either.

[Lurker]

I misread INTPorn on another thread as INTProm after reading this last post of yours. INTProm is an even more amusing idea than INTPorn, if you ask me.

:offtopic:

I'm amused by the idea of an INTP Christmas. Last Christmas on the similarminds forum, I tried to get members to humor me with their ideas of a modern, minimalist Christmas, but there were no takers.

[Lurker]

I live in Canada, but the other half of my family are settled on the American side. I never described anything as 'great', I was merely debating the finer points of what you said. And I don't see how doing so makes anything 'personal', either.

So are we going to the prom or what!?!

[Superstring]

So are we going to the prom or what!?!

You bet! :smooch:

[Lurker]

You bet! :smooch:

Cool. :banana:

[candy]

and Russia did not exist, or did it? (Soviet Union, right?)
And what do you mean ? Russia is Russia, Germany is Germany. Berlin is in germany, Moscow is in Russia.

[airjaw]

Hell no I'm not ashamed. This is a better country in almost every way than 99% of the rest of the countries in this fucked up world. We have a long way to go but THEY have an EVEN longer way to go.

[Lurker]

Hell no I'm not ashamed. This is a better country in almost every way than 99% of the rest of the countries in this fucked up world. We have a long way to go but THEY have an EVEN longer way to go.

Jingoism at its finest

[LostInThoughts]

I'm embarassed to be an American alright. Hell, foreigners can almost always tell who we are because so many of us, myself included, are so damn outspoken, dress even louder, and have the obnoxious habit of complaining, despite our privilege, that every other country we go to visit isn't just like the Good Ol' US of A...

On the bright side, at least I'm not French...;)

[tinribz]

Countries that are better than America:

England
Germany
Austria
Switzerland
Japan
Belgium
France (hmm)
Sweden
Monaco
Luxembourg

Its a long-tail quality of life thing.

Get-over-yourselves, already.

[digesthisickness]

Are yo embarrassed to be an american?

nope

[panda]

I have never identified with a country. Patriotism baffles me.

[Dante]

Yeah, from time to time... Especially when I hear people in high school asking "why don't we just nuke 'em?" Sad that those people place so little value on life...

[EmmaPeel]

When they start putting surveillance devices in private dwellings, businesses (even bathrooms), and automobiles, we are no longer living in a democracy. The sad thing is most people still think they have rights and that their votes count. The hypocrisy is sickening.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Yeah - I am proud to be American (most of the time).

Before you bash me hear me out. I am not saying that America does not have some problems... all places have their problems. There are a few things I would like to see changed... but compared to other countries are a doing good in many important areas. We could use a better health care system. Do not even get me started on where science and technology is going in this country - cause I ain't happy about that. But other areas are actually pretty good. Even self proclaimed terrorist can get a fair trial here.

People will talk about certain aspects that contradict freedom, liberty, privacy, etc. I say if you do not like to be subject to these things then strive to be the people controlling them. I am not proud to be like other Americans... way too complacent to strive for change - to make things better for the future. Too many Americans are just that - lazy, selfish assholes who complain about what the government is or is not doing for them (or to them). Take Charge - take control - money and a house in the burbs means shit - figure out what actually is important and go after it.

You do not like being spied on??? Well - find out more about it - see what is actually going on rather than assume that its all about taking away your personal liberties... maybe an example is in order:

I, eyebyte, was in the movie theater the other day watching SuperMan Returns... and I leaned over to tell my girlfriend about my general view of people... and that was... while on the one hand I am disguisted by them and frustrated by their "cow-like" (slow) behavior (made worse by arrogance) - to the point where I wish most of the US population dead - there is the other hand... that I pity them and actually feel compassion for them (and in a sense - to protect them cause they will not do it themselves - stupid people). I feel both things for people... there are those born here who do not. Most of the time these people who only feel hatred are harmless... they say things like "If they do not like it here they can go to [fill in the blank - country]". Every now and then you get a smarter one - or a more determined one... and they can be dangerous. Even more dangerous if they can organize like minded people. I do not like the idea of the government spying - but I do not like idea of another Oklahoma style bombing either.


We have a good style of government - granted that it is flawed as humans are flawed - but the systems itself is a good one.

[wildcat]

fuck, I know I am.
Russia had the fall of the Berlin wall..
Germany had the fall of Hitler..
Italy had the fall of Mussolini..
what will the US have?
The fall of democracy can't happen because we do not live in a democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism).

The US is not a democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy) nation..

The idea of freedom of speech is all well and good except for the censorship in the media... in the government.. and so on..
Those who favour a strong European government do not favour a weak provincial government. They favour a weak national government.

[Toonia]

Since America is hated by many countries now, but has many benefits for its citizens, it is easiest and en vogue right now to be an American, but hate America and be ashamed of it. Honestly, I am quite overwhelmed by the complexities of foreign policy and get really really tired of political debates being on the level of cavemen clubbing one another as people recite back whatever the media feeds us. I don't know what to think, but I'm determined not to parrot back mindlessly. There are instances of foreign policy that have been mistakes during various presidents' terms that really concern me - including the present issues.

It seems rather simplistic to either be proud or ashamed of being an American. I appreciate the opportunities I have had here to attend school, inexpensive land-grant universities, have freedom of conscience, be able to travel without getting permission, etc. A lot of people died to preserve these freedoms and opportunities over the centuries. Many Americans are completely unaware of the benefits here, and some have almost no concept of living under oppression. Before the war in Iraq I understand that some U.S. celebrities went over there and interviewed citizens on camera asking how they felt about the Iraqi government. Hello? Oppressed people are not free to voice their opinions!! I'm not a complete supporter of the war, but this type of out of touch demonstration against it is completely useless for my ability to form an insightful perspective.

Aimless complaining is a complete waste - especially when someone reaps the benefits from what they complain about. If you really are embarrassed and hate America, I suggest moving and changing citizenships. Or at least focus on the specific problems and try to change it. Americans do have a reputation for being out of touch with the world, and I don't think just feeling embarrassed makes a person any more in touch - it often makes them less. It makes more sense to focus on a specific political/foreign policy issues and try to actually correct it by speaking out, or sending money to relief agencies, etc.

[sbw]

The sad thing is most people still think they have rights and that their votes count. The hypocrisy is sickening.

to me, its more amusing than sad. anyone who thinks that their vote "counts" doesn't understand statistics; its a fairly small leap to presume that they don't understand much else, either.

Scott

[Nighthawk]

When they start putting surveillance devices in private dwellings, businesses (even bathrooms), and automobiles, we are no longer living in a democracy. The sad thing is most people still think they have rights and that their votes count. The hypocrisy is sickening.

I concur. From my experience, you have rights only as long as you don't piss off people with power. For the most part, those powerful people don't care what you do. If you manage to piss in their punchbowl however, then watch out.

I managed to piss off some of those people about 15 years ago, by testifying against one of their favorite sons. I was flown across the United States and locked up for several days without being charged, read my rights, or having access to an attorney. They harassed and threatened me repeatedly to keep my mouth shut. They tapped my home telephone as well. Most frightening is that they tried to have me committed indefinitely to a mental hospital for "observation." Fortunately, an equally rebellious psychiatrist pronounced me sane at the cost of his career.

There are dictatorial methods available to those in power in this democracy ... and they will not hesitate to use them to further their own ends.

As for the vote. I hardly find it an equitable choice when there is so little difference between candidates. The two parties rule and they do so in almost identical ways.

Having said all that, I still prefer to live in the US. I am careful not to piss off those powers now and enjoy a fairly luxurious and easy life. I also have too much vested in this country ... retirement, etc. ... to easily leave it.

[Wiki]

Amongst many things I am embarassed by this: http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

For this amount of money we could solve the homeless problem for those that are not mentally ill and build a dam to protect New Orleans. I think there would be change left over.

and I though my ex-wife could spend money...zing (just kidding, first marriage).

------

I saw this cool bumber sticker the other day that summed it up nicely: 'Ye-Haw is not a Foreign Policy'

[Nighthawk]

Amongst many things I am embarassed by this: http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

and I though my ex-wife could spend money...zing (just kidding, first marriage).


<sarcasm>
Now ... now. I'm sure Halliburton and all the defense contractors ... as well as the oil companies ... are working hard to roll all that money back into the economy. Meanwhile my job is going to India.
</sarcasm>

[Wiki]

Nighthawk, do I detect sarcasm? (very nicely done, BTW)

[coffeezombie]

to me, its more amusing than sad. anyone who thinks that their vote "counts" doesn't understand statistics; its a fairly small leap to presume that they don't understand much else, either.

Votes count from a group standpoint, though. If you make yourself a member of a special interest, you have a lot more power than from being just an individual.

[Purple-Silver Fox]

What I find especially shameful is the whining about 'my vote doesn't count'. It does. If it doesn't, make it count. If voting doesn't work, find another way. Organize. Spread democracy. But please not in the American Way.

[kendoiwan]

After seeing what those soliders did in Iraq, (plot to rape a girl for months, murder her whole family, rape and murder her) I wouldn't blame the lone survivor if he grew up to be a terrorist...

[Wiki]

Also can I add this http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

[eyebyte_atWork]

After seeing what those soliders did in Iraq, (plot to rape a girl for months, murder her whole family, rape and murder her) I wouldn't blame the lone survivor if he grew up to be a terrorist...


Me either...

it is sad when a subset of people go forth and represent the entire group badly. Like bad cops (from my old neighbor hood) - its hard to see cops as good guys if you experience the worse from them. I do not blame alot of people who think americans are evil. Not all of us are... but those that represent us negatively give that impression.

[EmmaPeel]

Having said all that, I still prefer to live in the US. I am careful not to piss off those powers now and enjoy a fairly luxurious and easy life. I also have too much vested in this country ... retirement, etc. ... to easily leave it.

We appear to have rights. Innocent people are surveilled without their knowledge.

[Toonia]

After seeing what those soliders did in Iraq, (plot to rape a girl for months, murder her whole family, rape and murder her) I wouldn't blame the lone survivor if he grew up to be a terrorist...I didn't know about this. Will these war criminals be punished? Whether these soldiers are punished properly will speak volumes about the U.S. How can I find out?

I wouldn't judge them if they did become terrorists, but would hope they would not lower themselves to the same level as the hideous people who hurt them. The strongest form of defiance is to refuse to share the traits of your enemy.

[Nighthawk]

We appear to have rights. Innocent people are surveilled without their knowledge.

I agree, and can confirm that from personal experience.

[sbw]

The strongest form of defiance is to refuse to share the traits of your enemy.

yes, though perhaps only the strongest people can manage this...

Scott

[Nighthawk]

After seeing what those soliders did in Iraq, (plot to rape a girl for months, murder her whole family, rape and murder her) I wouldn't blame the lone survivor if he grew up to be a terrorist...

The US has almost 200,000 troops in Iraq. Some of them are bound to be criminals. Also, rape has occured in every war in history. Nothing out of variance here. Tragic yes, but not out of the ordinary.

Having said that ... if they are guilty ... I hope they get life. I would not have tolerated shit like that in my unit. We're supposed to be the good guys. Hands off non-combatants and prisoners. Sexual assault NEVER tolerated.

[kendoiwan]

I know... but you're second paragraph covers it for me...

[airjaw]

Hell No i'm not ashamed of being American. Sure as a country we have made mistakes and still are making mistakes, but its not like any other country is perfect. I think we hold ourselves (and others hold us too) to a higher standard than the rest of the world and we do our best to surpass it, which is more than I can say for a lot of other countries.

Personally I think this country is the greatest if not one of the greatest at this point in history...

[Nefertiti Baker]

Not after yesterday. I think we'll be able to hold our heads up high again. Hopefully, we can start rebuilding what we've broken, both in others' estimation of us as a nation, and in our own society due to partisanship.

[charred_heart]

Not after yesterday. I think we'll be able to hold our heads up high again. Hopefully, we can start rebuilding what we've broken, both in others' estimation of us as a nation, and in our own society due to partisanship.what happened yesterday? The saddam thing?

[lbloom]

Voting.

[Nefertiti Baker]

what happened yesterday? The saddam thing?

The midterm elections happened. The Democrats took both the House and the Senate (well, we're just waiting for Mr. George "Macaca" Allen to concede to confirm, but it's pretty much done), and there were a whole bunch of gubernatorial seats that went Democrat.

In other words, George the Village Idiot wet his pants. Oh, and then he fired his Secretary of War, dear old Donald Rumsfeld. Other heads will roll. I'm betting on Rove getting the chop soon.

[Trillian]

How would one be living off of third-worlders who make clothes? What if Americans did not wear clothes? The third worlders would not have jobs.

Make no mistake. If the United States simply vanished by some process that did not physically affect the rest of the world, the world would be different, yes. But the rest of us would still be just fine, some of us even better off. That isn't to say you'd be missed. Countries have personalities, too. The U.S. is like Bugs Bunny. You have to admire him, but he's damnedly cocksure of himself... and sometimes you just wish poor Daffy, as intense as he is... could get the better of Bugs... just once. Or Fudd. Or Wile E. Coyote.

If Americans didn't wear clothes, they'd all look really silly and come down with pneumonia. There'd be a huge boom in third world overseas employment in building coffins and disposing of dead bodies.

Don't be so cocky, that's all. Have a care for others.