99% Skype

[Madrigal]

Well, Oakland is calling for a general strike on Wednesday. As a Spanish saying goes, I'm walking on walls (anxiety). Particularly anyone living in Oakland, and generally anyone involved anywhere else or who wants to talk about what's going on with the movement, I'd love to have a skype talk about it. I can chat tonight or Thursday night. Those are my next free nights. I have less time on the other days but I can hang around til 11 pm Buenos Aires time on other nights.

My first tentative proposal is for tonight.

Right wingers against OWS please refrain.

[!diom]

If I'm not scheduled to work on Wednesday, then I'll be more than happy to say that I would've gone along with the strike.

[Madrigal]

If I'm not scheduled to work on Wednesday, then I'll be more than happy to say that I would've gone along with the strike.
Do you work for a large corporation?

Whether you strike or not, I'd like to hear your opinions.

[!diom]

I work for a NASDAQ-100 company, and I work in Downtown Oakland. Whenever there's some kind of Downtown rioting or protest, people come to my work place to break windows or buy kombucha.

Very few of my co-workers seem to have sympathy for the occupy protesters. With the basic assumption being that anyone foolish enough to stand in the way of the OPD deserves to be kicked around a bit - the officers are bigger than you, they have better weapons, and they're generally on edge.

No one will strike unless they don't mind losing their job.

[Madrigal]

No one will strike unless they don't mind losing their job.

I assumed that would be a huge factor against the strike, and I imagine it'd be more picket and student action. But the idea of a general strike is really powerful and I think it sets a good precedent because it reaches out to working people and students in their own establishments. I've seen general strikes escalate before. They'd start out with about 20% support, and keep growing over the months (our govt before the big bank crisis in 2001 went through no less than 7 general strikes in one and a half years, which started slow and then became massive). I don't have unrealistic expectations for the strike but the future of the movement is completely unpredictable to me. I'm interested in hearing what people see around them and stuff.

[!diom]

People seem more concerned with earthquakes over here. There have been at least 3 (more if you ask a seismologist) in almost the exact same spot in the past week (one this morning), and it's on the Hayward fault. I've seen estimates saying that there's like a 1 in 3 chance that the Hayward fault will obliterate the entire Bay Area within the next 20 years.

[Ptah]

Right wingers against OWS please refrain.

Nice. Only those already drinking the kool aid, please.

[jyng1]

I'm presuming the OPD won't be on strike?

[Polemarch]

Nice. Only those already drinking the kool aid, please.

Yeah - that was kind of my impression there too. It seems a little closed minded to assume that anyone who is "against OWS" is a "right-winger". I guess I just figured something that claims to represent the 99% would be a little more welcoming (lol).

But I guess every Party needs a central committee...

[Madrigal]

Basically I want to talk to people who approve of the movement and want to see it succeed, because I want to talk about what can be done to achieve that. I'm not interested in the opinion of anyone who sees these guys as idiots, criminals, or any other right-wing argument. It would just deviate the discussion I'm interested in having.

On the other hand, if people want to waste time on arguing with right wingers, I'll just do something else with my night off.

[Polemarch]

No problem - I was just pointing out what hits me as cognitive dissonance.

I'm as curious as you are to see what happens with the protests - I just foresee the plausible objectives and results differently. I see Oakland as something of a special case - I believe the political culture of Oakland is far more sympathetic to left-wing extremism than almost anywhere else in America - or at least it was during the 20+ years I lived in Northern California. I could see a general strike in Oakland as a tiny bit more plausible than in other cities, but still doomed to underwhelm.

While I realize Occupy is said to represent the 99%, I just don't buy it. The protestors/occupiers seem to originate heavily from some very specific demographics: students, groups who are exceedingly marginalized, homeless. As !diom pointed out, people won't participate unless they don't mind losing their jobs, and I just think most people care about keeping their job more than they care about showing solidarity with a movement. To the extent that a general strike actually happens, I think most people will be annoyed at the traffic congestion, transit shutdowns, and general impedance of their daily life. Most people are not extremists; most people don't want to bring the system to its knees; most people don't sympathize with the more extreme left-wing elements of the movement. If the general strike in Oakland has any success, it will be symbolic only.

That's the only detractory thing I would have said on your Skype call had I participated. Have a nice chat.

[Madrigal]

See, I'm not so familiar with the differences from city to city. In any case I don't really want to start a new OWS thread here because the first one seems like a good place to concentrate the discussion. I was more interested in having a chat exclusively with those interested in the movemnt. However, I've given it some thought and maybe it would be better after the strike (like on Thursday), because there'll be more to talk about.

edit: or whatever people wanna do

[Rhu]

Pfft. I was considering giving a live report on the DC protests. It was going to be great. "There are a bunch of people standing around, symbolizing, I suppose, their lack of desire to take the unfair distribution of power and wealth sitting down.

"Breaking news! People are sitting. En masse, we have people who are actually sitting down. Clearly, they aren't going to stand for the very same things that I just said that they weren't going to take sitting down."

That would have been plenty to talk about.

Yep.

[Madrigal]

Pfft. I was considering giving a live report on the DC protests. It was going to be great. "There are a bunch of people standing around, symbolizing, I suppose, their lack of desire to take the unfair distribution of power and wealth sitting down.

"Breaking news! People are sitting. En masse, we have people who are actually sitting down. Clearly, they aren't going to stand for the very same things that I just said that they weren't going to take sitting down."

That would have been plenty to talk about.

Yep.

:theclap:

Let's chat today!

[nfinityi]

Basically I want to talk to people who approve of the movement and want to see it succeed, because I want to talk about what can be done to achieve that.
Oh. That's disappointing because I wanted to discuss the movement in general - what it represents, is it a harbinger of some sort, how does this relate to the concept of the silent majority, why do politicians seem to think they can direct a movement whose premise is that politics in America is ruled by the top 1%... That sort of discussion.

[Madrigal]

How does that not fit into the discussion? I just want to avoid having to get into some anachronic discussion with right wingers and be left none the wiser.

[nfinityi]

Is that supposed to be a pun? And the discussion of the significance of a movement and the discussion of how to further it are two different things.

[Madrigal]

Is that supposed to be a pun? And the discussion of the significance of a movement and the discussion of how to further it are two different things.
On second thought maybe you shouldn't participate. ;)

On the OWS thread there are people who have been going to these gatherings. I'm interested in discussing their impressions and how they see the movement gaining ground. That involves discussing what the movement is. If you want to discuss it from the standpoint of "OWS are idiots, lazy brats and criminals" then I probably will not only will disregard your perception of reality but also prefer you don't obstruct an otherwise productive debate.

[nfinityi]

On second thought maybe you shouldn't participate. ;)

On the OWS thread there are people who have been going to these gatherings. I'm interested in discussing their impressions and how they see the movement gaining ground. That involves discussing what the movement is. If you want to discuss it from the standpoint of "OWS are idiots, lazy brats and criminals" then I probably will not only will disregard your perception of reality but also prefer you don't obstruct an otherwise productive debate.
Lol, well thank you for repeating yourself and assuming you understand my position.

[Madrigal]

Lol, well thank you for repeating yourself and assuming you understand my position.

I said "Particularly anyone living in Oakland, and generally anyone involved anywhere else or who wants to talk about what's going on with the movement" in the OP. That I want to talk to participants without right wing obstruction doesn't deny that. I don't assume I understand your position because I don't know or care wtf you're talking about anymore. You're picking one point of interest while discarding others I mentioned, in an attempt to prove a point I probably don't give two shits about.

[Rhu]

Guys, if you can't get along, the OccupyINTPCentral movement is doomed before we've had a chance to formally propose it.

[Neville]

Basically I want to talk to people who approve of the movement and want to see it succeed, because I want to talk about what can be done to achieve that. I'm not interested in the opinion of anyone who sees these guys as idiots, criminals, or any other right-wing argument. It would just deviate the discussion I'm interested in having.

Criticizing any action of anyone involved in any way or form of any occupy wall street gathering means signing up with the right?


I wish the world I lived in was as black and white as yours.


--signed

an apparent rightwing extremest who has marched and screamed with the occupiers of his local OWS

[Madrigal]

Also, sensors posing as intuitives not allowed.

[Neville]

So you canceled the call?

[Madrigal]

So you canceled the call?
No. Are you done with the dumb questions?

[Neville]

No. Are you done with the dumb questions?

You went the wrong direction.

[Madrigal]

You went the wrong direction.

You're being a clownass. If the movement itself didn't have disagreements they wouldn't need to vote for anything. That doesn't make them opposers of the movement. Done with the dumb?

[nfinityi]

I said "Particularly anyone living in Oakland, and generally anyone involved anywhere else or who wants to talk about what's going on with the movement" in the OP. That I want to talk to participants without right wing obstruction doesn't deny that. I don't assume I understand your position because I don't know or care wtf you're talking about anymore. You're picking one point of interest while discarding others I mentioned, in an attempt to prove a point I probably don't give two shits about.
Well yeah but then you went on to say that basically you want to talk to people about how to help the movement gain traction.

U mad bra?

[Madrigal]

Okay, I'm gonna log on in a half hour or so and see who's around.

[Madrigal]

I am madrigal.triste

Gonna go get something to drink first and then start adding all of the three people (one of them being myself) xD

[Madrigal]

So now it's Rhu, Infinity, Oso, Polemarch, and Flatchett... don't ask.

[MoneyJungle]

And I just missed it.

[Flatchett]

So now it's Rhu, Infinity, Oso, Polemarch, and Flatchett... don't ask.

This sounds like the setup for a great late 90s sitcom.

[aelan]

darn. i'm at work. :mellow:

[Polemarch]

This sounds like the setup for a great late 90s sitcom.

Almost like Two Guys, a Girl, and a Pizza Place - except with more sadistic violence, more bleeding corpses, and less free coffee.

[1104]

present

[Skinart]

So now it's Rhu, Infinity, Oso, Polemarch, and Flatchett... don't ask.When you put it like that it sounds fantastic!

[Madrigal]

Actually it was fun. I had to leave shortly after teleforce arrived though and I wanted to talk to her more about Oakland. Also manza had just joined when I was leaving. But it was a fun chat, we should do it more often. :)

[Flatchett]

Yeah, Madrigal is surprisingly nice and fun to talk to for a commie rat bastard.

[Polemarch]

Yeah, Madrigal is surprisingly nice and fun to talk to for a commie rat bastard.

+1 (except for the rat part)

[gator]

Added you! Planning a big event at my local Occupy soonish whenever I find the bandwidth to do so... food, dialogue, good people. Will livestream and tweet.

[joft]

we can't get our student group going. the fb page has about 80 "likes," and 10-30 attend assemblies

dumbasses think they will soon be in the 1%, lol

[zago]

I think we should start an Occupy the Projects movement. Fuck those assholes for constantly being bailed out. Talk about greed.

[Madrigal]

Added you! Planning a big event at my local Occupy soonish whenever I find the bandwidth to do so... food, dialogue, good people. Will livestream and tweet.

Yay!! I'm excited. Anyone wanna talk on Thursday, the night after the strike? I can also talk on Friday night.

[zago]

So, what's up with how everyone is getting arrested at OWS and stuff? I don't think I ever heard of a tea partier getting arrested. Why are leftists such wild monkeys?

[zago]

Here's what OWS thinks of the country that gave them so much:

1sQ12dfINso

OWS Protester Defecates on Police Car (http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2011/10/08/occupy-wall-street-protester-defecates-police-car)
‘Occupy’ Protesters ‘Defecating on Our Doorsteps,’ NYC Residents Complain (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/occupy-protesters-defecating-our-doorsteps-nyc-residents-complain)
Occupy L.A. Speaker: Violence will be Necessary to Achieve Our Goals (http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/11/occupy-l-a-speaker-violence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/)
Occupy Chicago: At least 100 arrests in city park (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/23/national/a010325D98.DTL)
#OccupyBaltimore Discourages Sexual Assault Victims From Contacting Police, Offers Counseling for Perpetrators (http://biggovernment.com/dhunter/2011/10/18/occupybaltimore-discourages-sexual-assault-victims-from-contacting-police-offers-counseling-for-perpetrators/)
Occupy Wall Street: More than 700 Arrested After Protesters Block Traffic on Brooklyn Bridge (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-more-than-700-arrested-after-protesters-block-traffic-on-brooklyn-bridge-during-rush-hour/)
Police in Riot Gear Clear Anti-Wall Street Protesters in California City (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/25/police-in-riot-gear-clear-anti-wall-street-protesters-in-california-city/)

Too lazy to go on...

[Neville]

So, what's up with how everyone is getting arrested at OWS and stuff? I don't think I ever heard of a tea partier getting arrested. Why are leftists such wild monkeys?

One of these movements is actually a threat to the 'powers that be'.

One isn't.

[zago]

One of these movements is actually a threat to the 'powers that be'.

One isn't.

No, no, I'm afraid that's not that case. One group acts like barbarians and the other is civilized.

[Neville]

No, no, I'm afraid that's not that case. One group acts like barbarians and the other is civilized.

It is interesting that barbarity is so embraced while peaceful civil disobedience is violently crushed.
http://kaystreet.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/teabagger-const-gun.gif

[zago]

Hey look, a working class American exercising his second amendment rights! Stand proud my brother. Show those tyrants who has the power.

[Neville]

Hey look, a working class American exercising his second amendment rights! Stand proud my brother. Show those tyrants who has the power.

.......can't be serious.

Hey look! Working class Americans exercising their first amendment rights! Stand proud my brothers and sisters! Show those tyrants who has the power.

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/10/11/172687-occupy-wall-street-moves-uptown.jpg

[zago]

What is this supposed to prove? Great, a bunch of idiots exercising their first amendment rights (the ones who aren't shitting on cop cars and door steps, anyway). I'm not the one who posted a political cartoon stereotyping someone exercising their rights as a moron who should be ridiculed for it.

[zago]

Pretty glad I ruined this thread though. Madrigal trolled mine so I decided to go ahead and pay her back. Too ez! I could go on ad infinitum, but I really don't care at this point. I'm being SUPER nice and telling you now, don't reply to me any more. You're helping me derail this thread. If you want to keep going we can!

[Neville]

What is this supposed to prove? Great, a bunch of idiots exercising their first amendment rights (the ones who aren't shitting on cop cars and door steps, anyway). I'm not the one who posted a political cartoon stereotyping someone exercising their rights as a moron who should be ridiculed for it.

I'd tell you to use your N but you've proven incapable of doing so. I'm not sure where to go next.

[zago]

I'd tell you to use your N but you've proven incapable of doing so. I'm not sure where to go next.

Go poop on a cop car.

[Neville]

Go poop on a cop car.

http://i.imgur.com/T93AR.gif

[zago]

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-man-pooping-on-police-car-oct-2011.jpg

[MadamI'madaM]

Madrigal trolled mine so I decided to go ahead and pay her back.

You mean the same one you've recreated every 9 months or so since you accepted Glenn Beck as your personal lord and savior?

You've used this place as a "rhetorical" kleenex box since your precious little hard nosed reactionary transformation.

There's never any attempt to stick to a single coherent argument or come with facts.

[jyng1]

Pretty glad I ruined this thread though. Madrigal trolled mine so I decided to go ahead and pay her back. Too ez! I could go on ad infinitum, but I really don't care at this point. I'm being SUPER nice and telling you now, don't reply to me any more. You're helping me derail this thread. If you want to keep going we can!

You have wisdom far beyond your years:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4oydSZTAns&feature=related

[fripping]

he really should have squatted on top.

[zago]

he really should have squatted on top.

I really think he should have gone for this for a better effect:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Plr3VyISKcg/RgkCYdXuc5I/AAAAAAAAACs/z5Z6l3nVVMM/s400/protester%2Bpoops%2Bon%2BAmerican%2BFlag%2BGI.JPG

Same type of people, but not from OWS.

[fripping]

he looks like he got his shitting and his burning all mixed up. we need more effective protesters.

[zago]

You have wisdom far beyond your years:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4oydSZTAns&feature=related

Missed this post! Definitely not gonna watch that vid.

[oxyjen]

It's weird, my one right winger coworker brings up that single isolated incident of cop-car pooping. Oh, wow, scandalous!

I could show you hours upon hours of teabaggers acting like complete assholes at townhalls. I'm not sure what your point is, zago.

[gator]

Yay!! I'm excited. Anyone wanna talk on Thursday, the night after the strike? I can also talk on Friday night.

Thursday nights I have class but I'll see if anyone's online when I get home.

[zago]

It's weird, my one right winger coworker brings up that single isolated incident of cop-car pooping. Oh, wow, scandalous!

I could show you hours upon hours of teabaggers acting like complete assholes at townhalls. I'm not sure what your point is, zago.

That's just cause it is the funniest one. I posted 7 links in this thread beside the cop car pooping.

[Madrigal]

Someone has to patent the meme "throw a brick at his car" on that photo, before I do.

Gator, I'm also free Friday but I'll adapt to what everyone else prefers so it can be a little less improvised than last time.

Neville, you boycotted the skype chat. That wasn't nice.

[Skinart]

I assumed he shat that car out. I was amazed at how little blood there was.

[teleforce]

thursday night i have class, but i might try to squeeze into the GA that night depending on whatever happens on wednesday nov 2nd in oakland. so thursday i might be available later during the night, like after 10pm pacific time, which might be tough for everyone. on friday i'll likely be out for the night, but i'll see. i'd love to talk to you guys about your local occupy movements one of these days. hopefully if i randomly pop in on either day you guys won't mind (i'll keep checking this thread). i assume everyone's schedule is packed, so sorry about that.

[Neville]

Neville, you boycotted the skype chat. That wasn't nice.

It was predictable. I'm not a fan of talking, especially to groups of people.

Add me if you like. I'm cerll.thrace I'll make a half-assed attempt to show up. Though, I guarantee nothing.

[gator]

Someone has to patent the meme "throw a brick at his car" on that photo, before I do.

Gator, I'm also free Friday but I'll adapt to what everyone else prefers so it can be a little less improvised than last time.

Neville, you boycotted the skype chat. That wasn't nice.

I can do Friday, but I'll check and see who's online when I get home from class Thursday. I'm usually home around 10-10:30 pst.

[!diom]

#occupyoakland had better March on my workplace, else they're all a bunch of loudmouth liars.

[kuranes]

ez ! He's back ?


the OccupyINTPCentral movement I could use some solidarity here....supporters who want to avoid the limelight can bring us blankets and food etc.

If we had a general strike, then maybe the privates could at least get in some screwing around.......

[MoneyJungle]

Who's the 1% of intpc? Thinkers or intuitives?

[Qfwfq]

I'll try to join if I remember. Of course I still don't have a proper mic.

In that case we can use the human megaphone, yes?

[Polemarch]

I'll try to join if I remember. Of course I still don't have a proper mic.

In that case we can use the human megaphone, yes?

You are the one whose mic sounds like a spaceship giving birth, right?

[Qfwfq]

You are the one whose mic sounds like a spaceship giving birth, right?

I bring news from the vaginal overmind. Take me to your seeder.

[joft]

#occupyoakland had better March on my workplace, else they're all a bunch of loudmouth liars.

So? What do you have to say now?

[!diom]

They were kinda underwhelming, only managing to throw some paint and crack a window. Maybe it got crazier at night. It was a large crowd and then a smaller crowd of juvenile delinquents and masked people. Larger crowd fought off the people trying to break stuff.

I found a pic of one of my team members (far away and doing something else):

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4912/aron.png

[Polemarch]

I'll be curious to hear reactions to the Oakland rally, both in terms of their daytime activities and the nighttime activities. Before I saw news of criminal activity in the evening, I was impressed by the fact that around 7,000 people had participated, and there were no major disturbances, only one accident (car vs. pedestrian). Not bad for something of that scale. Shutting down the dock without any violence was also impressive.

But when I read about what happened in the evening, I wasn't surprised. Breaking and entering, bonfires, graffiti, and again, throwing projectiles at the police who responded. I will reserve final judgment until a clearer set of facts comes in, but this pattern of activity is not going to reflect well on the movement.

While there are some who probably would prefer to see the movement get more unruly and even violent, I don't think they represent the 99%. Acts like these only serve to divide the movement between the ordinary people - who want to protest and have their voices heard - and the extremists - who want to burn everything down. Instead of galvanizing the masses, I think these conflicts will ultimately dissipate them. The moderates will go home and back to work, satisfied that they had their exciting day of people power, and resenting the extremists who are making them look bad. The extremists will call the moderates a bunch of uncommitted pussy slaves. All that will be left are the communists, anarchists, and criminals, and the ordinary people will tune out.

Just my prediction. Thoughts?

[Polemarch]

What have they done?!?!?

http://gawker.com/5855846/what-have-protesters-done-to-oaklands-beloved-whole-foods

!diom, please report in more detail.

[!diom]

Not much more detail than what I've already said. They came. They shat. They squabbled amongst each other, and then they scurried off. It was all over in 10 to 15 minutes, but we kept our customers as hostages for a while after that.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Anarchists-Disrupt-Occupy-Oakland-Strike-133119143.html

A few interesting characters in that video. There's the guy with the yellow helmet who kept getting beat up. The "come at me bro" dude guarding the front door. The young black kid fighting off ninjas with a stick. I was actually just out of view of the camera at the top right near one of the rear exits.

[msg_v2]

Fucking anarchists.

[LastRailway]

If you guys have a redo, and if I ever get around to configure my microphone, I might be up for it.

EDIT:
Well, by re-reading the OP, I'm not living in Oakland or anywhere near, I can't even point Oakland on the map, but I still might be up for it anyway.

[!diom]

I'm all for people smashing and burning stuff, but I would prefer that it be more intelligent, as in directed and effective.

[jyng1]

The smashing and burning that's generated the most amount of support for the movement has been done by the police. You just need another couple of sacrificial veterans.

[Roger Mexico]

What have they done?!?!?

http://gawker.com/5855846/what-have-protesters-done-to-oaklands-beloved-whole-foods

!diom, please report in more detail.

I shouldn't laugh, but I did. I sometimes wonder if there's a better symbol of privileged "bourgeois" cluelessness in the world than Whole Foods. ("I don't understand why poor people don't just pay twice as much for their food because it has a sticker on it that says 'Eco-Friendly' like I do. When will they realize what they're doing to the planet with their selfish consumerism?") I mean, arguably Safeway or something like that has a worse overall effect on the environment and whatnot, but if you smash a Safeway you're fucking with a lot of poor people's food supply. Want to scare the shit out of a few people in expensive suits with less collateral damage on the people you ostensibly represent? Whole Foods is a much better target.

"Seven dollars for a cold Tofurkey sandwich? Ya Basta!"

I'm being facetious.

Seriously, this kind of thing is lamentable but you can't really prevent at least a few of those people from showing up. Looks like for the most part things were peaceful and the serious demonstrators took it upon themselves to try and keep it that way. In my experience a certain douchebag subspecies of "anarchist" will almost always show up to these things and try to ruin it for everyone else so they can get arrested and brag to their friends about it.

Pulling off a general strike in this day and age is impressive. Oakland, I apologize for referring to your city as "Jokeland," "Brokeland," and "Strokeland" when I was living in San Rafael. Now please tell any teenagers still rocking those baseball hats with the price tags still attached that they look incredibly stupid dressed like that.

[msg_v2]

Seriously, this kind of thing is lamentable but you can't really prevent at least a few of those people from showing up. Looks like for the most part things were peaceful and the serious demonstrators took it upon themselves to try and keep it that way. In my experience a certain douchebag subspecies of "anarchist" will almost always show up to these things and try to ruin it for everyone else so they can get arrested and brag to their friends about it.
.

Oh, undoubtably, but my fear is that the majority of people won't see it that way. Because a couple of idiots want to show "primal rage" against a mean society with like, rules and stuff, the entire movement gets discredited. This sort of thing does more harm than good, in my opinion.

As for privileged bourgeois cluelessness, there are people who shoplift from grocery stores because for some reason they think it's immoral to pay for food. (I have actually known people like this.) Because everyone knows the best way to create change is to try and alienate people as much as possible.

[teleforce]

it brings up questions of why whole foods isn't affordable for most people. at least that's what i'm thinking every time whole foods is seemingly targeted-- not by the main bloc of occupy oakland or the protesters/strikers who made it out. by the way i was on the march and whole foods was vandalized before we even got there.

basically i'm thinking what roger mexico said above. it still bums me out 'cause the inevitable media hype makes everyone look bad, but i also wonder why they (the news people) stayed away for most of the day when the biggest marches and rallies were going on. like, that wasn't important.

yesterday was one of the most beautiful days i've seen in this city. my biggest regret is not making it out early enough. angela davis spoke and i missed it.

oh yeah, at the protest i also saw that guy from reddit, the marine who took the picture of himself with the "you did this to my brother" sign. i couldn't approach him, though.

i'm inclined to think there was more than OPD's estimate of 7,000 (but i wouldn't know how to go about counting this).

[Roger Mexico]

Well, in the interest of total fairness, I know people whose perspective is that if the system isn't cracking down on you, that tells you that you aren't a threat to it. That you'll know you're having an impact when the cops show up to crack your skull. I think this line of thinking can easily misguide you into doing stupid things, but in most cases its proponents are sincere and a little more aware of what they're doing than just expressing "primal rage."

See, I don't even know if it really makes the movement look all that bad. Despite their best efforts to focus on the crazies and the relative non-story of ad-hoc tent cities not being models of smoothly functioning urban planning, the sheer numbers and persistence of the movement are kind of forcing the media to cover the relatively normal people and their relatively understandable grievances that are driving it. If a few people in the crowd are a little overzealous, they are nonetheless clearly a minority. (And even the group of people actually camping out or marching are a minority of the people who share the same grievances.)

I was highly active in marches against the Iraq war back when it was just a bad idea--basically the fall of 2002 and spring of 2003--and most liberals were vigorously clenching the top of the proverbial fence between their ass-cheeks, afraid to affiliate themselves with anything as crazy as being opposed to a war. We were widely ridiculed as a bunch of hippies, wide-eyed idealistic pacifists, opportunistic radicals looking for something to be pissed off about, etc. This was the only image of the anti-war movement that got any serious play in the mass media. Any time the "black bloc" got a little out of hand at a protest, this pretty much became the story of the march itself in the newspapers. I distinctly remember Jon Stewart (who is now seen as having been willing to call out the government for its duplicity over the war when real journalists wouldn't) mocking an anti-war march on D.C. by playing clips of interviews with stoned-looking old hippies saying incoherent things, and not wanting to actually touch the war issue in his routine. Basically, back then the black-bloc'ers saw themselves as being more willing to go the distance in voicing opposition to a very bad policy than more moderate demonstrators, while the public/media just assumed they were being assholes for no real reason, and cast guilt by association on anyone who seemed to agree with them in any way.

[Full disclosure: I kind of black-bloc'd a few times back then, which at the time consisted of the grossly antisocial act of marching somewhere in a group that you didn't have a city permit to march in a group. I don't actually recall any property destruction, but the police reaction would make you think we were smashing windows. I was nightsticked and almost peppersprayed once for this offense, and those of us who did it got called all the same things--hooligans, extremists, "hard-core" (that one's my favorite), etc.--that the people spraypainting things in Oakland are now being called.]

Remember this is before the war actually started. We (anyone protesting) were putting ourselves at risk of turning out to be alarmists or "nattering nabobs of negativism" who had been upset over a policy move that might have turned out to go well for the country. Or, I suppose, of having been dangerously naive (or worse) if the BS about al-Qaida and the WMDs had turned out to be true.

But, of course, this isn't what happened. We were right, and I think that, in a quiet and subtle sort of way, a lot of the people who publicly mocked us back then realize they have egg on their faces now. I think I detect a slight MSM inclination to avoid making the same mistake with the Occupy Wall Street story. Their default response is still the same (anything on fire is a better front-page photograph than a bunch of average-looking people calmly marching in a parade), but they're gradually moving toward a more objective approach in which the freaks and "rabble-rousers" are only an epiphenomenon of something much more significant. Maybe.

Baby steps.

[!diom]

it brings up questions of why whole foods isn't affordable for most people.

Ignorance, basically. People don't understand the range of products we sell and why some are more expensive than others. Seeing the expensive end of the range seems to blind them to everything else. In other words, once they see the 90 dollar bottle of olive oil, they're baffled and ignore the regular 365, conventional (not organic) cheapo bottle. In Oakland and Berkeley, at least, Whole Foods is the cheapest place to buy the products that Whole Foods sells (all natural foods, free of anything artificial), aside from getting produce at a farmer's market. I suspect this is probably true in most other places as well, as cheap grocery stores tend to sell cheap, artificial products while inflating the price on everything else.

It wouldn't be hard at all for a large, poor family living on food stamps to eat exclusively at Whole Foods, but it would require that they not live off of Cheetos, Dr. Pepper, and frozen dinners. Conventional brown rice is still under a dollar per pound, and less when bought in a 25lb bag. Many of the shoppers at my store are visibly poor or homeless, but they're not stupid, and they always know where the deals are at, preferring bulk cereals and oats to shit in a box.

There's also the issue of pay & benefits for employees. WF handily beats the unionized competitors in this area in respect to both. The only exception is for store and regional leadership, i.e. stores like Safeway have more income inequality: minimum wage workers (who make even less because of union dues) with a six figure per year store manager (depending on the store & area they can approach 200k).

[Madrigal]

In my experience a certain douchebag subspecies of "anarchist" will almost always show up to these things and try to ruin it for everyone else so they can get arrested and brag to their friends about it.
Yeah, and the other subspecies of anarchist is the one who shops at Whole Foods. pa dum pum chhh :gm:

I have to see if I can make it tonight because I'm not at my place so i'll have to be borrowing the computer. Ugh.

[MadamI'madaM]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Anarchists-Disrupt-Occupy-Oakland-Strike-133119143.html
A few interesting characters in that video. There's the guy with the yellow helmet who kept getting beat up. The "come at me bro" dude guarding the front door. The young black kid fighting off ninjas with a stick. I was actually just out of view of the camera at the top right near one of the rear exits.

LOL, some anarchists.

http://www.patbratton.com/walter.jpg

[Roger Mexico]

Yeah, and the other subspecies of anarchist is the one who shops at Whole Foods. pa dum pum chhh :gm:



At "OccuPDX" there's a poster near the kitchen titled "The Politics of Dishwashing." It goes something like:


Capitalism--The poor spend their lives washing dishes for the rich.

Liberalism--The poor can vote for one of two people, whose dishes they will wash.

Socialism--Instead of washing dishes for rich capitalists, the poor wash dishes for party bureaucrats, but the bureaucrats assure everyone they will eventually wither away.

Anarchism--Everyone washes their own dishes.

Insurrectionary Anarchism--A quixotic attempt to develop a political philosophy based on the act of breaking dishes.

Meanwhile, the first time I went down there a college student from the International Socialist Organization was walking around inviting people to an "Informational meeting on stop the wars and tax the rich."

Apparently, after the Revolution we am haves not needs for parralel constructions.

[Madrigal]

You're just annoyed that it's true, Mexico. :p

Btw I finally know that I can't make it tonight, the computer has to be used for work, so I'll have to see if anyone's still around for tomorrow. But I'm sure you can do without my awesome hosting skills today, which involve disconnecting the convo everytime someone joins. :/

I'm disappointed I have to miss it. The strike was awesome.

[Polemarch]

"nattering nabobs of negativism"

Only a history teacher would quote Spiro Agnew.

[Madrigal]

Well, I'm only a week late. Is it still going on?

[gator]

Occupy? Yes-ish.

Skype? Every night.

[Madrigal]

k I'm getting some beer. I didn't necessarily wanna talk about OWS, but I'm online and won't be sleepy for like another 6 hours. :mellow:

[Neville]

I'm kinda drunk and I brought a new mic. add me call me cerll.thrace but first i need to walk to the liqour store before it closes.

[MacGuffin]

Why Skype and not tinychat?

[Madrigal]

Why Skype and not tinychat?

What the fuck is tinychat, get your ass over to skype.

And Neville I thought you were already drunk! Hurry up! :D

[Polemarch]

Skype is better voice quality. And since I have Skype premium, video is possible (although not mandatory).

[MacGuffin]

Skype kills my laptop, tinychat is much better.

[Ptah]

Skype kills my laptop, tinychat is much better.

Tinychat sucks, hence so must your laptop.

[MacGuffin]

Tinychat sucks, hence so must your laptop.

Yes and yes.

[Skyphon Pox]

Basically I want to talk to people who approve of the movement and want to see it succeed, because I want to talk about what can be done to achieve that.

In what sense could this movement "succeed"? What could it possibly accomplish?

[Polemarch]

In what sense could this movement "succeed"? What could it possibly accomplish?

Have you ever had a successful bowel movement?

Well.

This movement could be just as successful, if we push hard.

[Skyphon Pox]

But how would one measure the success? What type of outcome would indicate that the movement was successful?

[Madrigal]

Well, next time I'll post on a Friday night chat thread, it was fun.

Btw, can't believe I've known Mac on the forum for 6 years and only just saw him today.

[MacGuffin]

I just wanted to Skype and they booted me!

:boohoo:

[Randall]

Was the first thing you typed "BOOBS!" or did you say hello first?

[gator]

I just wanted to Skype and they booted me!

:boohoo:

Is that what happened? I swear like 10 minutes later we were like "MacGuffin has left us! How did this happen?!"


Was the first thing you typed "BOOBS!" or did you say hello first?

He had some unsavoury things to say about garbage pickup in Argentina.

[Polemarch]

I just wanted to Skype and they booted me!

:boohoo:

It was the fact your computer sounds like a lawnmower with a broken blade.

[MacGuffin]

It was the fact your computer sounds like a lawnmower with a broken blade.

Computerist!

[Roger Mexico]

Incidentally, Occupy Portland has been ordered to clear Chapman and Lownsdale Squares as of 12:01 AM tonight. G.A. last night featured announced plans for concrete-bucket sit-in, support rallies in other locations and marches to the vicinity of the park. Offhand I'd guess about 10% of tents were gone as of 8 PM last night (when I arrived.) G.A. has been called for 7 PM tomorrow at Terry Schrunk Plaza (third, uncamped park on federal property adjacent Chapman/Lownsdale where G.A.'s have happened for several weeks.)

Police reportedly came in and confiscated some rocks. (Protesters say it was a pile of unused construction materials.)

Lawyers were calling bullshit on the mayor announcing a Sunday morning deadline on the last day before courts closed for holiday weekend. (Making an appeal hearing before the deadline impossible.)

I'm gonna buy like 3 or 4 disposable cameras. Sometimes you can get digitized versions of your albums at Walgreen's or whatever. Will post pics if I can.

David Rovics and "others TBA" are playing in Terry Schrunk at 8 PM. In other news, who the fuck is David Rovics?

About 2-3 times as many cops were loitering by the camp last night, packing clu- excuse me, "batons," helmets, tasers, and mace cans. Speaker at G.A. observed that cops who have been in personal contact with campers appear to have been rotated off and replaced with officers who have presumably only seen news reports and official briefings.

I'm gonna buy like 3 or 4 disposable cameras. Sometimes you can get digitized versions of your albums at Walgreen's or whatever. Will post pics if I can.

[Polemarch]

Incidentally, Occupy Portland has been ordered to clear Chapman and Lownsdale Squares as of 12:01 AM tonight. G.A. last night featured announced plans for concrete-bucket sit-in, support rallies in other locations and marches to the vicinity of the park. Offhand I'd guess about 10% of tents were gone as of 8 PM last night (when I arrived.) G.A. has been called for 7 PM tomorrow at Terry Schrunk Plaza (third, uncamped park on federal property adjacent Chapman/Lownsdale where G.A.'s have happened for several weeks.)

Police reportedly came in and confiscated some rocks. (Protesters say it was a pile of unused construction materials.)

Lawyers were calling bullshit on the mayor announcing a Sunday morning deadline on the last day before courts closed for holiday weekend. (Making an appeal hearing before the deadline impossible.)

I'm gonna buy like 3 or 4 disposable cameras. Sometimes you can get digitized versions of your albums at Walgreen's or whatever. Will post pics if I can.

David Rovics and "others TBA" are playing in Terry Schrunk at 8 PM. In other news, who the fuck is David Rovics?

About 2-3 times as many cops were loitering by the camp last night, packing clu- excuse me, "batons," helmets, tasers, and mace cans. Speaker at G.A. observed that cops who have been in personal contact with campers appear to have been rotated off and replaced with officers who have presumably only seen news reports and official briefings.

I'm gonna buy like 3 or 4 disposable cameras. Sometimes you can get digitized versions of your albums at Walgreen's or whatever. Will post pics if I can.

At first, this read like a typical post.

But once I read the bolded line for the second time, I realized this was more of a lyric poem.

I commend you sir.