The creativity project, story edition, ruleset discussion.

[ApeTheDog]

What is the problem with introverts? We don't say anything. We don't give feedback when somebody posts a beautiful painting here because we don't feel involved. What we are good at, on the other hand, is structure. So I was thinking maybe we can force people to give feedback through a structure, because feedback is great.

This is how it works. You post a story here, and then you give feedback on the stories the 5 people before you have written. You're supposed to really tell people what you thought of it, not just go 'I liked it' and say nothing more (betraying that you just want to have it over with. This is no good. If you want others to read your work, show them the s me respect and do the same) or just say 'I loved this part about it' when you hated everything else (thus making it seem as though the story was good when it really sucked horribly).

So, in short. First, write a story. Then give feedback to the previous 5 people who have written something here. Then post your story here, and get feedback yourself from the next 5 people. It's a kind of chainletter/pyramid scheme, really. But I think those work really well on forums.

I realise this may very well bum and not get off the ground, but hell... I tried and theres no harm in that.

If anybody else has ideas on how we can do this, or if they would like there to be a theme to write stories about, let them and speak up and say their piece, or forever hold it.

[ApeTheDog]

I forget the most important question. Would anybody be interested in taking part in this? I only know I would.

Would you?

[kuranes]

I like the basic idea. Not sure how much time I could consistently devote to it. Maybe we should make the stories really short to start with. Or have them be character studies. Prose poems. Everything from silliness to profundity should be allowed. Stories shouldn't only be judged on the basis of whether they improve the world, or symbolize something profound etc. I think spelling and punctuation should count too, just like they would in the real world. Perhaps handicap "points" could be given or taken for people who are still learning English.

[Slider]

more superfluous "rules" . . maybe you're good at structure, but I'm not, and I happen to like it that way. otherwise, I'd get bored, see? Impose a system like that and you're going to suck the fun out of the entire board. And this board is pretty much dry as hell already.

[meshou]

Probably a word or character limit.

As in, I lurve you guys, but I am not going to read a twenty page story on a forum. There's already a post limit, but still.

[kuranes]

more superfluous "rules" . . maybe you're good at structure, but I'm not, and I happen to like it that way. otherwise, I'd get bored, see? Impose a system like that and you're going to suck the fun out of the entire board. And this board is pretty much dry as hell already.
No one can stop you from writing any old thing and adding it to the thread. I thought Ape was ASKING for suggestions on structure, and most ( not all ) of my suggestions were ones more likely to allow for the freedoms you seem to be advocating. The one exception to that - what's so outrageous about preferring things be spelled and structured so I can understand them? We ARE supposed to be critiquing the stories after reading them. Perhaps you'd rather not do that either?

[ApeTheDog]

I was thinking more that people would give feedback on other things, like a good characterisation and a nice story arc and brilliant sentences, rather than spelling. But I don't want to in any way tell you that anybody can't do it that way. The fun thing about getting feedback five times would be that you get to hear a number of different takes on it. Somebody will focus on a lot of things including spelling, somebody will completely skip spelling but focus on something else. That is a very good thing, in my opinion.

Slider: I'm only trying to fix it a bit. I think people are far more likely to write a story, and try hard to make it a good one, when they know they will get a lot of feedback on it. Do you not think so, and do you not think this is a good idea? You don't have to take part in it, but if you're going to criticise it say sensible things. I hardly think your claim that me, or kuranes (I don't know which one of us you were adressing) are sucking the fun out of this board, is fair.

[Slider]

Slider: I'm only trying to fix it a bit. I think people are far more likely to write a story, and try hard to make it a good one, when they know they will get a lot of feedback on it.

If that's why someone writes a story, then I don't want to read it.

People will still post wotever the want, when they want? okie. but if you've got a system set up like you're proposing, and someone comes along and does exactly that, I think it's probably going to piss off the people who played along and spent time critiquing others.

[meshou]

If that's why someone writes a story, then I don't want to read it.

People will still post wotever the want, when they want? okie. but if you've got a system set up like you're proposing, and someone comes along and does exactly that, I think it's probably going to piss off the people who played along and spent time critiquing others.So if someone doesn't do a review post, skip their story when doing yours? Seems simple enough.

I write stories all the time. I'd probably only post one here if I thought I was going to get feedback (which is what I assume Ape meant). It's stupid to say "well, if they're only doing it because I am wonderful at giving the ego handjobs, I do not want to read it..."

Uuuh... sorry sweety, getting a good review from you isn't the driving force for my writing. And probably not anyone else's. It's a little self-important and very unrealistic to assume people work that way.

[Slider]

I have no idea wot you're trying to say to me. Apparently, you didn't understand my post. I'll get back to you when you can figure it out.

[meshou]

I have no idea wot you're trying to say to me. Apparently, you didn't understand my post. I'll get back to you when you can figure it out.If you don't know what my post is saying, then why are you questioning my reading skills?

[Slider]

I was questioning your critical thinking ability, actually. Your post, which is a reply to mine, makes no sense in relation to my post.

[kuranes]

I was thinking more that people would give feedback on other things, like a good characterisation and a nice story arc and brilliant sentences, rather than spelling. But I don't want to in any way tell you that anybody can't do it that way. The fun thing about getting feedback five times would be that you get to hear a number of different takes on it. Somebody will focus on a lot of things including spelling, somebody will completely skip spelling but focus on something else. That is a very good thing, in my opinion.

Slider: I'm only trying to fix it a bit. I think people are far more likely to write a story, and try hard to make it a good one, when they know they will get a lot of feedback on it. Do you not think so, and do you not think this is a good idea? You don't have to take part in it, but if you're going to criticise it say sensible things. I hardly think your claim that me, or kuranes (I don't know which one of us you were adressing) are sucking the fun out of this board, is fair.

Totally agree. Spelling and punctuation would be basics to me. Obviously other attributes would be more important. The house itself is the interest, built on a solid foundation, so to speak.

I don't want my spelling/punctuation suggestion to be something that people get hung up on, though, and keep the thread from getting off the ground.

Feel free to point out any errors that you think I may not have intended in anything I write. I frequently find them myself, when I go back to read something I've posted. Then I correct it. Hard to circle something in red pencil here, which is one more reason to look over my work twice before hitting the "submit" button.

Honest praise is great, but I'd rather have criticism than nothing at all. Hopefully it would come in the form of looking at what I was shooting for, and letting me know how you think I could better achieve that intended goal, as opposed to the type of criticism that tells me what to BE shooting for.

[meshou]

I was questioning your critical thinking ability, actually. Your post, which is a reply to mine, makes no sense in relation to my post.
All right. Let me put it in itty bitty words, since your inability to undersand simple English somehow reflects bady on my thinking skills.


People will still post wotever the want, when they want? okie. but if you've got a system set up like you're proposing, and someone comes along and does exactly that, I think it's probably going to piss off the people who played along and spent time critiquing others.If people do not follow the rules that are set up in the proposed thread, then their contribution to it should be ignored.

If they do not want to follow the rules in that thread, they can post their story in its own thread.

That way, the only people who get pissed off are people who are either too stupid to follow instructions, assholes, or people who can't ignore stupid people and assholes throwing a hissyfit.



Slider: I'm only trying to fix it a bit. I think people are far more likely to write a story, and try hard to make it a good one, when they know they will get a lot of feedback on it.If that's why someone writes a story, then I don't want to read it.No one writes stories for that reason. It is not human nature. Assuming that people write stories for the two sentence review of a stranger on the internet is not only silly, but over estimates how important your opinion is to anyone.

What Ape clearly meant was that people were more likely to share stories here if they were promised feedback, not that they were more likely to write them. He's probably right.

[Slider]

All right. Let me put it in itty bitty words, since your inability to undersand simple English somehow reflects bady on my thinking skills.

thanks for illustrating my point.


If people do not follow the rules that are set up in the proposed thread, then their contribution to it should be ignored.

If they do not want to follow the rules in that thread, they can post their story in its own thread.

I believe the proposal was for the entire "The Atelier" board. If not, it is unclear.



No one writes stories for that reason. It is not human nature. Assuming that people write stories for the two sentence review of a stranger on the internet is not only silly, but over estimates how important your opinion is to anyone.

I didn't assume that. I read that.


What Ape clearly meant was that people were more likely to share stories here if they were promised feedback, not that they were more likely to write them. He's probably right.

lol, clearly. which is why he took the time to add in the bit about trying hard to make it a good one.

[Spartan26]

What would be the size limit? Or, how long would you expect these stories? Is there an easy way to have a window open that'd display the story? I know I'm guilty of doing it myself, but some long posts can be tedious to read. I'd rather print them, read them, and then come back with comments. I'd also want to do that to keep the format in tact.

[meshou]

I believe the proposal was for the entire "The Atelier" board. If not, it is unclear.He proposed it like a board game. Those generally only go in one thread. He just wanted ideas on how to make it workable and pleasant. It's not unlear at all.

[ApeTheDog]

I did not mention that my proposal was not for the entire Atelier board because I thought everybody would just know that. I guess it got stuck in my INTP 'everybody knows this' blind spot where I don't consider it. I obviously can't change how the atelier works, or enforce rules for it (that you all know of, anyway :ph34r: ) so I thought it would be obvious I wasn't proposing that. But I was wrong, and I guess I should have explained things better.

It would all take place in one simple thread on the atelier, and people would still be able to post things on the atelier in their own threads. Things would still be as before - I don't propose we change anything to the atelier, just to add one thing to it.

[ApeTheDog]

Okay, so people are interested, and there should be a word limit. Does anybody think they'll need more than 4000 words? That seems like a good limit to me. For reference: 4000 words is the length of this story: http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/ThatHow.shtml

I only see one other practical problem, but I guess it really isn't one. The first person to post his story won't have to review anybody elses - the second person only the first persons, and so on. So be it. And the victims of the system will be the ones who post their story last - when interest wanes - because they won't get their feedback. So I guess, em... the solution to that would be to not be those last people.

[kuranes]

Can we post things by other writers, and put their name down, and thereby become anthology editors too?

[ApeTheDog]

I don't understand. Do you want to post your comments on a third parties' story instead of write one yourself? Then how do other people review your entry? It seems a bit unpractical.

If that is what you want to do, then by all means go ahead and do it, though. I don't want be that person who tells people what they can and can't do and I also don't think it's wise to restrict peoples creativity. And if other people don't think what you did was worthwhile, they'll tell you in their review of your work. That's the whole idea, isn't it? :)

[Slider]

I did not mention that my proposal was not for the entire Atelier board because I thought everybody would just know that. I guess it got stuck in my INTP 'everybody knows this' blind spot where I don't consider it. I obviously can't change how the atelier works, or enforce rules for it (that you all know of, anyway :ph34r: ) so I thought it would be obvious I wasn't proposing that. But I was wrong, and I guess I should have explained things better.

It would all take place in one simple thread on the atelier, and people would still be able to post things on the atelier in their own threads. Things would still be as before - I don't propose we change anything to the atelier, just to add one thing to it.

ahh, okie. that makes sense. anyway, you can have at it however you like, I never intended to participate anyway. I do think its funny that ppl got so worked up about it, though.

[ApeTheDog]

I think for INTP's, it's not really getting worked up, but more like getting an intellectual work out. :)

[kuranes]

I'll be writing some stories myself too. Just asking if its restricted to original material. I guess people could judge my having picked it, if they want to critique ME on that. Or they could say what they think of the author/writer. Or both.

[Slider]

I think for INTP's, it's not really getting worked up, but more like getting an intellectual work out. :)


a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, dear ape.

[Ascending]

Make the thread already Ape.

[ApeTheDog]

Good idea